Destiny 2 Lore - Tier Ranking Destiny's Dungeon Bosses according to their power in the lore!

[@nngprofxavi8269]

Can you do strike bosses tier list please

[@Loderyod]

That's far more interesting than it sounds

[@MeconiumDung]

Most likely xol from will of the thousands. It honestly should have not been a strike lol it’s kinda shot it wasn’t at least a dungeon

[@Darkness-dv6sz]

@@MeconiumDungThat’s a good point. While Xol is described as the weakest of the Worm Gods, he is still a Worm God that kinda created the entire Hive XD

[@wafflestcattash4818]

@@Darkness-dv6szis that a d1 strike?

[@m.cproductions3671]

Xol is easily no.1!

[@cqbkrusty]

My one takeaway from this is byf was throwing for the prophecy run, he used his nova that was charged during dps not on the boss, but on a taken knight who was clinging onto life by a thread

[@hansuluthegrey8524]

Its about sending a message

[@obama_2399]

Made me want to cry fr

[@s_t_r_a_y_e_d]

@@hansuluthegrey8524 sheer intimidation tactic against the actual boss. "i don't even need this super to walk on your corpse >:)" truely Byf's IQ is beyond 300

[@ossimlz]

He's great at Lore, without question, though his gameplay could definitely improve. But it's classic Byf gameplay, his focus definitely is not on optimacy... I've grown to appreciate his level of skill, it's just funny sometimes.

[@StupidCatLady]

I saw that and chuckled. I would have done the same thing, not to style on the enemies, but because I'm terrible at the game 😅

[@osteohiveporosis6882]

One crucial element of Avarokk's character is his cunning. He's been able to lure many guardians into the loot cave over the years and destroy them, and that can't be discounted.

[@ericbright1742]

If the messages in bottles is anything to go by, it's less that he killed Guardians, more that he got the Guardians to kill each other. I don't know if that makes it less impressive, or more impressive.

[@osteohiveporosis6882]

@@ericbright1742 He played mindgames with them and tricked them until it was just Wilhelm-7, and then killed him.

[@Forcer69]

You know, I’m still annoyed that they didn’t make a meme boss for Grasp of Avarice. Should’ve just been Taniks again, this time with Gjallarhorn.

[@GravitonLance]

Should've been Randal the vandal

[@GalenLeRaaz]

@@GravitonLance Randal the Vandal has the parts for Gjally's catalyst though...

[@HexagonThatReallyLikesVinegar]

No, just have Avarokk but he swaps between random exotic weapons. One second, he's using Riskrunner Another, he's gunning you down with Sweet Business The next, he has Eyes of Tommorow, and you are going to be evicerated.

[@MrPotatoAim-hr7iu]

@@HexagonThatReallyLikesVinegar or bum rushing us with the D1 exotic swords in each hand.

[@m05513]

I have to say I was a little disappointed we didn't throw Nezarec into this tier list while we had it up, since he came out since the last one and it would feel really awkward making an entire video for a single raid boss. Sure he's a pushover in game, but lore wise he has a lot of implications, from being able to wield both light and dark, being the source of the nightmares, and being a chosen disciple of the witness with huge cults following him.

[@Shapes_Quality_Control]

Agreed. I’d have like to have seen where he’d rank against the A and S tier threats. Missed opportunity.

[@garrettviewegh9028]

Not to mention, like Riven, he is able to subvert death. As long as people remember Nezarec, and as long as there is fear in the universe, Nezarec cannot truly die. Of course, he’d make a great big bad for an expansion in the next saga. I feel, then, is when we will find a way to permanently kill/erase Nezarec. Albeit, we may be fighting him in is original, darker, form. Without the light, but only using darkness and nightmares.

[@Syrus...]

Hes probably saving that for a all raid bosses one

[@m05513]

@@Syrus... You mean the one he already did and put the dungeon bosses into with this video? That all raid bosses one?

[@Syrus...]

@@m05513 he did all final bosses, if he does one with all* like warpriest, gorgons, etc.

[@wojakc7745]

Seeing Simmumah has made me deadset on one idea; I so badly want to see some cracked up lucent hive witch perhaps even savathun, spawn an arcsoul that just acts as a normal arc soul, but it shoots like chaos reach

[@Justin032106]

Regarding the Kell Echo and if the Taken of the Nine can be deployed: There's a lore entry somewhere about how, using just one Mote, the Drifter was able to summon ten Primevals. So they can be deployed, sort of. But there might be a proximity restriction to the Haul.

[@droctogonapus8162]

Yeah! That’s the lore entry for hunter ancient apocalypse set! It’s actually a really interesting bit of lore because the drifter uses them against a large group of attacking cabal legionaries and psions with really good effect. The bootleg taken ARE in fact a capable deployable force.

[@Emeowy]

God the primevals and drifters taken are cool, loved reading all those entries way back then

[@SierraMonstera]

Rather unrelated, but I'm a little upset Alak-Hul hasn't been mentioned since witch queen. He's the only other Lucent Hive, to my knowledge, who's Ghost we didn't kill besides Savathun.

[@ShaofHappiness]

I have faith that Daddy will be back. I really hope as an ally, too. Imagine having that bastard on your side after seeing how hard he claps in GMs?

[@zygardemaster5967]

​@ShaofHappiness considering savathun is coming back as our ally, that's plausible. Which is an awesome thing to think about

[@hithere5553]

I have a sneaking suspicion that Lightblade vs Darkblade will be a major plot point next year

[@abitofsupport601]

@@hithere5553 ...isnt it the same being though?

[@Warriorcat_Youtube]

​@@abitofsupport601Dark blades have been a sort of rank of big ol' night since Alak-hul's debut, basically just an excuse to use the guy after he first died without it technically being him. So, it's entirely possible a DarkBlade of Xivu Arath faces of against The LightBlade of Alak-hul. I mean, he'd be a powerful ally

[@TheDapperTapper]

About the Taken of The Nine, I do recall a piece of lore about The Drifter deploying Primevals to clear out a Gambit arena of Cabal occupants. It's hardly a fearsome achievement, given that we destroy Primevals all the time in Gambit, but it does show that they have a measure of power against non-paracausal combatants, and that they are a very real force on the battlefield, able to be directed by someone sufficiently knowledgeable and powerful. He also summoned a Captain to kill that one Shadow of Yor, but he wasn't able to fully control it at the time. I'd wager that The Drifter and his own personal breed of Taken are a much more formidable force than anyone truly realises. I think The Drifter may be the only thing close to the idea of "allied" Taken we're ever going to get.

[@harrisonhamilton5284]

Well don’t scoff at them just because WE kill them, we also kill disciples, hive gods, wish dragons, etc. To survive against us is really hard

[@TheDapperTapper]

​@@harrisonhamilton5284 Yeah, I forgot that some of the lore regarding Gambit has seen other guardians die for good against Primevals. It's pretty easy to forget just how dangerous Gambit actually is. That just makes Drifter and his personal army even more of a threat. He could likely stage a serious attack on the Last City if he wanted to, I'm beginning to understand why the Vanguard were so scared. With that in mind, I think the Kell Echo might actually be a serious to the two Hive guardians on the list and anything weaker than them. It's powerful enough that it could canonically kill a guardian, and it's paracausal (assuming Bungie really meant to imply that being Taken grants one a small measure of paracausal power, as it did for Quria)

[@skydefender7554]

We absolutely need a guardians tier list, obviously our guardian would be the strongest but other than that i think it'd be a super interesting debate between characters like Zavala, Saladin, Shaxx, and Saint :)

[@jimijenkins2548]

All below Ikora.

[@skydefender7554]

@@jimijenkins2548 facts

[@CC-2062]

Ikora do be kinda cheating though. She is throwing supers like they solar grenades with sunbracers.

[@FEDsShotMOM]

​@@jimijenkins2548i pretty much view ikora as a mary sue. I really dont like her. And she whines alot, though i guess she could certainly be written worse. She could be written all girlboss troupe that hollywood loves

[@seb5542]

​​@@FEDsShotMOMShe's not really a Mary Sue though. Regardless of what anyone's opinions are on the character. She doesn't fit the definition unless you disregard all of her story that has built her up to this point. She hasn't always been depicted as this powerful and she's developed/trained a lot to actually get to this point. It's even outright stated in the witch queen CE lore that her power wasn't even originally a fraction of what it is now, and that any Guardian can become as powerful as her. She also continues to make mistakes, have flaws and also learn from them, further developing her character. She also doesn't always learn from these things right away. A Mary Sue wouldn't have done any of that at all. It's taken her hundreds of years of development to get to the point she's at now and there are many lore pieces and bits of dialogue explaining this and her flaws. Which again, a Mary Sue wouldn't have. The lore/narrative team have gone to great lengths to make sure she isn't a Mary Sue. A good example of a Mary Sue would be Rey from star wars, who fits the definition pretty well. Or the player character in the event that you choose a female. Although I don't think the word should be exclusive to women, and them being the player character also plays a role in it. Not that it should sway the fact really. I mean it's cool if you view her like that I suppose lol and of course you can have your own opinions on a character, that's completely understandable. You don't have to like her. But calling her a Mary Sue is incorrect by the very definition of the word. And I'm not quite sure what you're referring to when you say she whines a lot.

[@themememaster423]

Val may not have been all that powerful, but he sure was a badass.

[@Darkness-dv6sz]

Absolutely, he has I’d say the most badass Cabal boss design!

[@abitofsupport601]

and now hes taken :(

[@Warriorcat_Youtube]

To be as weak as Ca'uor and still out up a fight against Calus is commendable

[@NathanBMedia]

​@@abitofsupport601he's taken and obliterated by 6 Guardians disappointed in the Taken weaponry rolls

[@individual7046]

Campaign bosses might be a inteesting to add to the tier list too. You have Fallen like Erimas who have been shown to be able to kill hive guardians with ease but you would also have heavy hitters like Savathun that might be able to beat out Oryx then we have wild cards like Calus who being empowered by the witness might be stronger then Crota. If you want to expand the list we can count antognist for different seasons as well like Siviks and the undying mind.

[@InkyHelm]

When does Eramis kill a hive guardian?

[@individual7046]

​@InkyHelm season of the plunder the final cutscene of the season she takes down a light bearer knight

[@themadwarden6603]

I only just realised how dungeons is where Bungie puts their weird obscure bosses that noone ever heard of before.

[@Ranthop]

I believe Dul Incaru's situation is one where the technique out preforms its wielder. She wielded a ritual dependent on a couple outcomes. Compare her to either Ecthar or Simmumah Ur-Nokru, I think Dul Incaru is weaker.

[@dumbsterdives]

bit of a "ive come to bargain" scenario. she isnt tough, but she doesnt have to be to win

[@dunethewanderer8944]

I wonder how well the Lucent Hive would have done if they hadn't been caught out in enemy territory (assuming that Titan's oceans are Xivu's "territory"), or even if the Lightblade had been there. I personally feel that Alak-Hul was deliberately holding back at Savathun's request during the Witch Queen campaign, and that at this point he could easily rival Crota in his prime.

[@kcop1882]

I mean if we take Finch's word for it, Alak-Hul was a contender with Oryx, he had the ambition and ability to push for it. I think without a doubt, in addition to being adorned with the light, Alak-Hul could tread over what Crota was capable of if given the chance, I suppose it's largely out of what Alak-Hul is prepared to go out and do on his own, but if you've got immortality to push you on, as we as guardians do, he stands every chance of getting stronger and stronger. I think that Alak-Hul not being there is potentially a good thing, since it does seem that the resurrection of Oryx was a desperate gambit, and we'll likely get to see him resurge in future content, possibly alongside the *SPOILERS* Resurrection of the Witch Queen. I think resurrecting enemies is fucking cool, with the way the universe of destiny is set up, it makes for genuinely massive set pieces. The Hive have got a potentially amazing story progression to go forward with in the current lore, between Savathun and Xivu I'm really intrigued to see it develop.

[@firestrike5478]

@@kcop1882 Alak-Hul was established to be a rival of Oryx's back in D1, we don't need to take Finch's word for it since we killed him originally in a prison cell that Oryx himself put him in.

[@helkenthecabal1087]

You know, at the end where he says "like we're facing them in real life" sounds kinda fun. Now i want to see a tier list where it's destiny forces vs Humanity in our world

[@csaver]

I'm pretty sure everything past d-tier could wipe out humanity with ease

[@jdc2944]

Quria shouldve been a dungeon boss

[@captainlink72]

I’m really curious how a tier list of prominent Guardians would shake out. Great vid as always!

[@callmeriggy]

St.-14 > Us > The Vanguard > Literally everyone else > Crow. Though now that I wrote that out, I suppose Sloan does get a mention via name now that she's actively shown she can be partially taken and still fight back control from Xivu. Which is no small feat.

[@CC-2062]

​@@callmeriggywhat about osiris pre nerf ? And what about eris . She is strong but different than most guardians.

[@nickgrout2502]

​@@callmeriggyI'm sorry but Ikora is definitely stronger than Saint

[@callmeriggy]

@@CC-2062 Osiris is nerfed, pre or not, in the constant state he's next to useless.

[@callmeriggy]

@@nickgrout2502 You right because of that cutscene where she used two supers in like 30 seconds. Ikora top.

[@cry1pticzer773]

You can see the difference between Raid and Dungeon bosses

[@nexesses1548]

The difference is actually even bigger, we faced most of our raid bosses with more help, while they were already weakened, with guidance, external power to damage them etc. While the dungeon bosses were at full power when we faced them.

[@longps9528]

​@@nexesses1548we usually face raid bosses at the apex of their power, with the exception of Nezarec and the Planetary Core. We have to fight them in their home turf, where they have access to various defense mechanisms of their own facility. Meanwhile, the raiding party are blinded, because unlike Vanguard Strikes where someone would guide us and tell us about the mechanics, no one is there to help us in raids. We fought Atheon in the only place it can exist since Atheon is bound to the Vault of Glass, and we had to surpass Atheon's lesser Minds to actually get to it. Rhulk was confined within his Pyramid due to Savathun's curse of Light upon her Throne World, but we had to fight him at the center of his own Pyramid, right above the Upended, where his power is at its greatest, not to mention his capability to manipulate the Pyramid's inner structures to his advantage, something Rhulk wouldn't be able to perform outside of his ship. On the other hand, guardians have never fought raid bosses at the apex of their power. The one time we kinda did was back in the Red War campaign when we reconnected to the Light using the Shard of the Traveller. For a brief moment, our supers were always in the state of being supercharged, and we were spamming supers left and right, only to be greeted by some common dregs. We have never fought any boss right under a free and awakened Traveller, with the Last City's multiple turrets, gunships, Drake Tanks, combat droids, and other Guardians at our disposal. Meanwhile, every single raid bosses we have fought always have their own army at their command, and will always have a mechanism or two to defend themselves, while raiding Guardians have limited revives because of the Darkness zone.

[@Frodo_swagginsX]

​@@longps9528actually so true. A guardian at the up most height of their power would be unkillable. Unlimited supers means unlimited wells and bubbles and no darkness zone affecting our revives meaning even if you do die, you can come back as many times as you like.

[@zecksoz]

The taken that The Nine and hence Drifter produce are real, no simple imitations. That's how he can use them in Gambit. There's a cut scene where one attacks Drifter on his ship, and also lore where he deploys several primevals against the cabal. So yes, the Nine created taken are the real deal.

[@voltaicrusher]

I’m not sure if this has been said before but I think it would be neat if you ranked the story bosses. Seeing Savathun compared to Panoptes would be quite neat.

[@kinggigan6044]

How about a tier list of the strongest guardians. Though I imagine that one could be a bit difficult to do.

[@life-destiny1196]

Per an old lore entry, Ikora was the first Crucible participant to hit a 25-win streak, for what that's worth. IIRC her power in comparison to an average guardian was described as "six standard deviations above the norm," which is genuinely off-the-charts if you know anything about math. Still trying to find the source on the second, though.

[@nexesses1548]

The other guy promoted ikora, I’ll promote osiris. It’s more a funny rant you don’t have to read the thing. I mean it’s true but it’s like hilariously long. Use 7 supers at once. Dual wielded Dawnblades, Nova Bomb whilst holding a Dawnblade in the other hand. Can create Echoes, clones of light that can use supers, gain information, fight and operate independently. He can see through them, summon them any place and relocating them on a whim. He was everywhere at once at the battle of the 6 fronts, fighting on every front at the same time. There are stories of Shaxx meeting entire fireteams of Warlocks who have no shadow and never blink. In his prime he was in a permanent state of Radiance. A state where you become one with the light, slip beyond the physical, become virtually invincible, able to self revive like a Phoenix and “pluck yourself out of nothingness.” A sunslinger holds immense power and when in radiance “has light enough for his enemies, his friends and the friends of their friends.” Osiris his radiance shone so bright, Eris morn couldn’t even look at him. So even among sunsingers he was exceptional beyond belief. Being a sunsinger can’t be learned unlike the others. You have to be exceptionally lucky and gifted to be able to hear the music and even more lucky, gifted and passionate to make light sing with fire burning in your soul. His talent and genius is like one of a kind across history. He later upgraded his echoes to “Reflections.” Osiris on the difference: “One is a manifestation of Light. The other… reserved for Taken Kings.” And unlike echoes there doesn’t seem to be a limit to how many he can summon, sending them to infinite timelines. They are just as powerful and even more real than Echoes. On top of that he doesn’t have to waste light energy to keep them up or create them. He proved he can use them outside the infinite forest, mostly to get out of meetings across the galaxy. He is playing with paracausal power never held by any guardian other than him, power of hive gods. After he opened a vexgate, walking into this planet sized supercomputer made to simulated entire realities with unlimited timelines, a hellish landscape which no one had ever escaped alive, managed to master the vex tech to augment his abilities to godly levels, fighting the vex in an infinite number of timelines with an infinite number of reflections. He survived millennia of simulated time in the infinite forest without a ghost. Stoped simulated time, saw the future and even travel through time. He was the one and only reason our guardian could navigate and even leave the infinite forest. This speaks to his ridiculous cunning and intelligence.

[@DiogoPace]

Poor fallen, only Aksis was something of a threat. Though OG Skolas is still the toughest fight ever gameplay wise.

[@kyanballet2960]

we know that primevals are somewhat of a threat to guardians(and i think some have perma died when drifter tested for gambit prime), which means that echos and primevals are probably the same( i think echo of oryx in recknoning is the strongest counterfeit taken) so that means kell echo is a threat. I would say high d-tier or low c-tier

[@johnprice6271]

Some advice for future lists: Enemies like the Kell Echo should have their own tier as "Unquantifiable." This will make it clear that the boss doesn't fit into a specific tier due to just how difficult it is to nail their power down.

[@eleventhoperator]

Awesome that you’re slowly building out this whole tierlist and power scaling system! It’d be awesome if you could eventually add secondary raid bosses and maybe campaign bosses.

[@awesomeguy9513]

The double hive that killed Zulmak would be an interesting boss to fight if it’s still alive, like design wise that could give us a super cool looking. Heck seeing how savathun will be revived next season or s24 she may want to remove any other hive threats that isn’t Xivu and this hive fusion boss could be one of those threats still on the moon We have a dungeon coming later on and my guess on who we fight is probably something scorn/taken/hive or maybe vex. This will be the last one before final shape and seeing how dungeons are tied to the story so this dungeon will probably help wrap things up. It could be hive/taken to handle Xivu story or maybe taken/scorn and it goes into the fanatics story cause we have no clue where he is or if he has his own will or the witness. With the fallen/cabal being left out we kinda don’t need to fight them like calus is dead and the fallen are to divided

[@abitofsupport601]

Your comment just reminded me that we dont actually have a scorn dungeon yet....

[@somedudewhospamsballoons2707]

​@@abitofsupport601well well well

[@da_chief1492]

Lol we hit the part of the season where anything destiny related can be a video again. Not complaining, i love the variety vids

[@joss247]

Didn’t the drifter use a gambit taken to kill that dredgen hunter in a season of the drifter cutscene? Does that prove that the dark matter taken can actually be used as real forces and have real world power?

[@WrathNebula321]

Well, I wouldn't really say that hunter is dead because of two things: One, that Taken Captain summoned by Drifter only knocked him over the edge. And Two, there was no confirmation (at least from what I know of in terms of lore) that the hunter was killed after being knocked off.

[@THERATSANDTHERATS]

​@@WrathNebula321I mean it's the Drifter, I wouldn't be surprised if he just killed the guy after to make sure he didn't come after him

[@PrismaticGeyserr]

I think campaign bosses are worth ranking as well. Disciple Calus, Eramis, Sav, Ghaul, etc. there’s a lot of characters I think are worth ranking

[@kieronfarley1924]

Plot twist luck is considered paracorsal so our favourite captain is an easy A tier

[@jaredtherock5692]

Never have I been so excited for a tierlist, but it's probably because of how rare these are that makes it such a special treat.

[@reeseramsey3991]

Would we be able to see where the story bosses rank compared to dungeon/raid bosses? I think some of them, like Xol and the boss from Curse of Osiris would be interesting to see placed on this list

[@joshuapickering6000]

I have a idea with the new faction coming out could you do a tire list of all the factions like their tactics, power and technology I’d like to see that

[@gavin1612]

13:34 I think the nine can deploy their taken outside of the hual because there was that one cutscene from season of the drifter that had them summon a captain to attack the dredgen threatening drifter

[@kingkadster2426]

I could listen to this man rank every named enemy we’ve taught

[@Corryx]

Byf regarding the Kell echo didn't the drifter summon a taken captain do deal with a shadow of yor. If that's the case then they'd be able to be deployed outside the hall as well.

[@Beqdyg]

I think it would be interesting to rank the supporting bosses (warpriest, golgoroth, caretaker, etc.) for the raid bosses on this tier list.

[@taimohansen2162]

D1 and D2 strikes, lets go, and then maybe campaign final bosses? And i hope you to seperate tier list on gurdians one day, Like: Osiris, Cayde-6, zavala and crow. Cant wait for this series to continue. Keep up the good work👍

[@tornap4rt]

I’ll say this, Zulmak, Instrument of Torment has got to be the HARDEST name out of all these bosses

[@dominussharith9016]

I do genuinely believe Atheon should be higher. I do understand he runs in to the paracausal problem. So he shouldn’t go above Crota. But he also killed guardians by the bucket full. And you said again and again that those hive guardians aren’t as strong as normal guardians. So if they are comparable to a storied guardian, and Atheon killed a lot of guardians, I feel he should be higher

[@porklift6902]

I think Captain Avarok was first introduced in the Death to Kells ship. In the lore tab, he builds his own ship, travels to the Tangled Shore and meets Spider, then names his ship the Death to Kells and is welcomed to Spider’s crew

[@midamulti-tool]

Not to be that guy but i feel like you are overplaying how strong guardians are. Guardians have been killed by random hive and fallen in the past and wasn't there this thing a while ago where multiple guardians were killed in an awoken airstrike. This gives me the feeling that the player character guardians are the exception in terms of power rather than the norm and that paracausality really doesn't help that much for many guardians

[@Howdy55]

I would love to see a tier list of our allies (eris, ikora, saint 14, Osiris, etc)

[@Dizastermaster.]

Well... now you gotta do campaign bosses

[@v.rocky111]

Disciple calus actually dogwalks nezzy and Rhulk. But people just don't wanna admit it. Debate me.

[@Dizastermaster.]

@@v.rocky111 no thanks lil bro

[@Knightlight3449]

​@@v.rocky111elaborate

[@v.rocky111]

@@Knightlight3449 calus had to fight a whole new subclass he could never had predicted against our guardian. The witness gave calus full control of pervading darkness, which is the same power that Rhulk uses which out scales him. He is also a severe threat and worthy opponent to our guardian as he could've easily destroyed our guardian if not for strand, and he also poses a severe threat to the entire alliance leaders.

[@giles.9862]

​@@v.rocky111 rhulk destroyed a star and defeated a continent sized beast..

[@ninjathis3009]

Any chance of getting a Story boss tier list to also compare their powers with this scale? The three vex statues from Vanilla D1, Ghaul, Lightfall Calus, lightbearer Savathun, Eramis, etc? I'd love to hear your thoughts and some discussion on them as well!

[@ls7205]

talking about vex and paracausal powers really got me thinking about how cool it would be if we got a storyline about vex that learned about the veil, take control of some darkness by themselves and started to really mess up with timelines, creating multiple universes...

[@ransomdean9141]

I agree with a lot if not all of your assessments. Ranking the night mares so high makes sense to me, considering they are a “fragment of Nezarec’s power” (technically?) even in someone’s mind. And I’d say a fragment of that power is more than that of a lot is not all of the non paracausal threats, and even minor paracausal ones.

[@korvinplaysgames691]

Byf here still giving CPR to his beloved game. Loremaster, I salute you. You gave me the wonder of Destiny, and Ill follow you on the next magical world.

[@1Bolzard1]

It should be noted that the Taken within prophecy can actually be deployed as a combat force, both within gambit and loosely under Drifter’s control (see the cutscene where Drifter uses a “counterfeit” taken to prevent his own execution at the hands of a Dredgen). Its also heavily implied that the Primevals that are summoned have immense paracausal power, considering the heart of a counterfeit Voice of Riven’s heart was used to forge the paracausal weapon Malfeasance, a weapon specifically designed to match the powers of the original Golden Gun. Under these pretenses, I would make the case that the Kell Echo deserves a much, much higher ranking, and is likely on par with C tier at minimum. Keep in mind that the Nine were able to even counterfeit a pre-raid boss Oryx. Finally, I would offer what the implications of the Nine as “sentient dark matter” are: this is largely speculative, but it is helpful to understand dark matter as the inverse of matter, meaning the “counterfeit” taken are the inverse of the taken they emulate. When equal parts of matter and dark matter are combined, the result is nothing, therefore, the inverse represents a direct one to one comparison to the “original”, simply phrased as a negative, similar to a parabolic graph.

[@gascan7333]

I still find it hilarious that the gigachad Val Cauor, despite being the weakest raid boss canonically, is arguably the hardest boss fight in Destiny. I really like the idea of the Red Legion rallying around a charismatic and brave low ranking officer after we decimate their command structure. And in true Cabal fashion, he went down swinging. Led from the front lines as the last of the Legion makes a final stand against the guardians and the traitor Calus. He went for broke, and was a complete underdog. A great way to close out the Red War.

[@Spike2276]

After we get Final Shape you should do one for the main story bosses of the Light and Dark saga, be real interesting to see how the foes we got in this list will square up against Megamind himself

[@MrElmo54321]

In terms of the hive guardians I think a thing we should consider is that they still use hive magic & rituals to bolster their power, infact Šimmumah uses Nokris’s forbidden Necromancy magic, a wide assortment of magic that makes her quite formidable. However I like to think with Šimmumah, that we used part of Oryx’s essence to weaken & defeat her, Oryx has always had an obsession with death to the point he wanted to be death, and whenever we successfully crack a rune, it reads “Death calls Šimmumah” as if Oryx’s soul is attempting to drag Šimmumah down. Perhaps I’m reading far too into it or perhaps by interfering with a necromancy ritual it makes her vulnerable to death. I’m not 100% informed about the depths of the hive Magic, all I know is that it seems like a deadly powerful combination that puts her closer to Crota.

[@gascan7333]

I didn’t get a chance to say it on the raid boss video so I’ll say it here. I think Aksis belongs in B tier, just above or below Atheon. Siva, while not paracausal, is immensely powerful. Rasputin used it to slaughter the Iron Lords and hundreds of light bearing Iron Wolves as well. The Iron Lords seem to be some of the most experienced and powerful lightbearers humanity as ever seen and they were cut down with ease through the power of Siva. Paracausality does not always trump, Atheon proves that in the vault by defeating Praydeth and Kabr despite not technically being paracausal itself. I also find it relevant that Atheon’s power resided almost entirely within the Vault. It was able to manipulate time to that degree because the vault is a pocket dimension where the Vex can change the rules more easily (like the Black Garden). Aksis however could have taken his army of splicers and his power over matter itself anywhere. Also if we are looking at these bosses at the height of their power as you say, Aksis still has the replication complex online and pumping out more and more Siva. His mastery over Siva essentially gave him the power over matter to the same degree that Atheon had over time. The only difference was Aksis was less limited by where he could exercise this power. I’m not saying he even beats out the sanctified mind, but I think you did him a little dirty with the C tier.

[@sgt_pasty2033]

Hear me out. I do believe the Kell Echo is the middle of C tier and here’s why. Like you said he’s a taken copy of Eramis. Now sure in the gameplay he doesn’t use stasis. But he does have the Dark Entropy debuff. I think that can justify him having a good grasp on paracausality in it’s own. Compared to Ghalran who only had hive magic to use I do believe the kell echo is stronger. But hey your the lore guy. I’m just some nerd who likes prophecy. Great video btw 🎉❤

[@thesnowbold1632]

So I think there is something I’ve been meaning to ask. We know Deepsight opens memories and that Savathun tested the use of it on Guardians on Uldren and used us to open her memories in a preferred method. But doesn’t that mean that some of the other Hive Guardians also have had Deepsight used to bring back memories. Otherwise, why else would Simmunah’s past skills matter here? It might be that some hive given past memories to make up for that lack of experience that was mentioned. I also recall a lore piece mentioning a hive guardian scratching a rune pattern out if comfort even though it had no power. This would imply memory, but how would a guardian have memory unless they used deepsight to recover it?

[@xinfr4z893]

Love when Byf does ranking videos.

[@WolfclawTheGreatwolf]

never clicked on a byf video faster

[@FeelGoodDivine]

Campaign bosses would be cool to watch too

[@OnyxEclypse]

Just wondering, for the raid boss tier list, would you put Nezarec at low S or high A?

[@Clarity_Control]

If thinking of height of power, it’s fair to put him in S as the one we fought was not nearly as powerful.

[@Alcatraz760]

Gameplay wise simmurah should be s++ tier. Rhulk’s attacks are tickles comparer to simmurah

[@agathor2017]

What about the Grasp of Avarice and Shattered Throne ogre bosses?

[@seanmurphy7845]

Honestly not mentioning the double edge sword that is the Dreaming City Curse was a bit of a mistake. Dul Incaru may be eternally resurrected, sure, but she's trapped repeating the same cycle over and over again. Doomed to die endlessly in a quest that seemingly never bares fruit, if the Dark Future lore is anything to go by. Knocking her down a few spots would easily be justified.

[@yousephkarouni9540]

You missed Akelous, The Siren's Current - Spire of the Watcher's first boss. Though I would not rank him too high anyway, though it is something to be said lore wise as Persys was the last resort, whereas Akelous was the first line of attack and I believe tied directly to the Vex Network trying to hack into the Spire. For Šimmumah I agree wth some additions: so far the only people who have "resurrected" Hive God sare other actual Hive Gods, and combined with other lore where a ghost can only resurrect a soul that AGREES to it, It goes to say that she was actually going to either resurrect with the ghost (the "easy" way) or force him to come back, which may have been partially successful. According to a Hidden report, Oryx is not physically dead when we get to him. There is also the addendum that she resurrected the weakest member of the Court of Oryx, Vorlog, someone who I very much doubt would have come back willingly as a member of the Court of Oryx, and we know of Hive taking themselves out post resurrection even when revived by Ghosts (Jynx lore).

[@sundew3848]

Avarokk has Randal the Vandal under his command, checkmate Oryx.

[@cry1pticzer773]

And actually where would you put Nezarec?

[@nullandvoid7524]

High A if he got killed by Savathuun he's under Oryx, even being brought back and empowered by the light I couldn't see him killing Oryx in his Throne World

[@Giga-Toad]

You should also try to sneak in a couple of characters into the list like savathun, Eramis, nezarec, and disciple calus. They just seem like important characters to the lore that should be mentioned, even if they are not in a raid or dungeon. (Of course nezarec is, but he’s not in the list yet)

[@lunav.hearts3641]

If I remember correctly there was a cutscean of the drifter just casually summoning a taken captain to defend him from what looks like a Rouge guardian

[@kasm7870]

Dûl Incaru pulling the Kraft Punk: “Did you know I cannot die?”

[@alexandriatheodore8855]

I dont know if I'm missing something from a previous video, but could Rivens wish magic hypothetically make her paracausal, because of the nature of her wish magic? Or was there something mentioned elsewhere that said something that prevents that?

[@zygardemaster5967]

Ahamkaras are definitely paracausal and riven is already S tier

[@Loderyod]

Now that's a mid season Byf video i would watch!

[@briannasatou9950]

A reminder about Zulmak is that he actually lost in combat, and the reason of the dungeon being named "Pit of Heresy" is because he was resurrected with hive magic and Nightmares by hive wizards to make him their ideal champion, but in turn making him a heretical creation. He's a puppet moreso than a combatant in his own right, and not actually all that powerful, as he was reanimated to be a better killing machine, which failed in the end.

[@chloec4009]

I would argue Simmumah deserves to be in A tier under Crota. Dul Incaru's biggest feats are assisted by Riven and Savathun, Simmumah is working almost entirely on her own power (but probably at Immaru's direction) and that of her Ghost.

[@genluk]

I don't mind the rankings, I think they are mostly accurate to what I thought they would be. My only little problem is how you call them Hive Guardians because I personally think they should just be called Hive Lightbearers, as Guardians didn't have that name to start with neither should they. For me a Guardian is a human who has been revived by a Ghost to protect humanity and the Traveler. I think calling the hive ones lightbearers or risen works, but guardian is to the ones protecting the City. But again, this is my personal opinion and how I call them, please I don't want anyone getting rude with me for this comment (It happened before somewhow lol). And thanks for doing another tier list, I was already thinking on where the dungeon bosses would end up when I watched the first video.

[@themadwarden6603]

Don't think it makes him stronger, but I think Avarok is the same as the "Avrok" mentioned in the linear fusion rifle "tarantula's" lore card. Spiders "whole hoard" which Avrok stood to win was the loot cave, and Spider is only ok with us killing Avarok because we simultaneously rooted out a Hive infestation and also didn't steal too much.

[@formerlyknownasmousecopp4367]

Just out of curiosity: where would you rank Nezarec on this list? I'd think he's deserving of low S, but I'm not 100% comfortable putting him above the others in that tier. But very likely above Crota. But wielding both dark AND light paracausal powers, even if its unnaturally, would probably be S imo

[@dingmonkey9712]

My guess is he’s definitely in S but low S I’m not too sure. Again I’m not 100% on most lore in Destiny but if I remember right, Savathun has beaten him before she had the light, but the one thing that is making me question this is that Nezerac can’t truly die. His voices and nightmares still live on and he finds a way to come back. As long as the concept of nightmares are extant, Nezerac lives. He’s quite literally a conceptual god.

[@DespressoEspresso43]

I would put the Hive Guardians above Dul Incaru. I think their paracausal abilities aside, they have the benefit of having ghosts

[@tristinnelson4550]

You should do a tier list of bosses in encounters

[@mechagamer9744]

Can we do the rest of the raid bosses after the strikes, the ones that came before the final boss, as it would be interesting to see where they would rank

[@Likenessofterror]

Can you rank prominent guardians in the lore vs each other?

[@NAPainter]

Something I think people need to consider about Persys was that his shield was CHUNKY, i mean obviously paracasual beings might not have problems with it, but we basically had to use the power of a nuclear reactor to shut it off. shouldn't be taken for granted. I have some doubts that some of the raid bosses here would actually be able to disable the shield to begin with. Honestly outside of throwing it into the reactor of the leviathan I doubt Calus could actually destroy Persys at all.

[@sciurusvulgari3687]

When you said the final boss of the latest Dungeon we had encountered before, i went and looked for a video and sure enough, first result was Eso solo melting then with one Wardclif shot

[@gandorias8641]

the hive guardians also have a lesser personal arsenal in comparison to us both in their actual weapons and the fact that they seem to be locked into one subclass and one type of grenade and super. correct me if they can change, they just don't, but even so, we have stasis and strand which they definitely don't.

[@jaxgallagher911]

Yeah they’re roughly equal to a guardian resurrected a week ago. Little training and not much understanding of their power, reminds me of the early days of D1 when I used Solar 95% of the time. Even then that’s stronger than a light bearer hive I had the option of two subclasses. That being said even a low level Lucent Hive would beat the dogshit out of every other enemy race in the game, other than the bosses of course.

[@Deprece]

What’s interesting about Hive Guardians is that we are very lucky they are inexperienced. Guardians are variations of humans after all and I don’t think people realize how much that means. The power spike we get is INSANE when we become Guardians. Hive are far more powerful than Humans at base. So their power spike would be just as massive. Their inexperience is what gives us the edge in combat. If they are allowed to linger and learn, I can see them besting most of us in combat

[@feralprocessor9853]

20:28 Makes sense because he's one of those models that got them THICC legs.

[@thizzmonkey7846]

I’m not gonna lie it’s reassuring to know that as far as actual power for our guardian, we were ranking at high a tier low s tier early on in our career as Guardians. Cuz Crota, Atheon and Oryx were all D1 bosses and I know plenty of us even though we were new to the raids went in and went ham yeah we had to figure stuff out but I mean I know of more than one raid team that went through the raids like exlax

[@newtypeshot]

What I've learned from watching this video is that Byf really likes heavy GLs

[@shiro.ver1]

Always a good day when the lore daddy uploads

[@masonfef7440]

Can you do some more of these type of videos, like maybe you could do a tier list on some of the strongest guardians in lore if theres enough info but yk yeah I like your normal type videos however I enjoy the tier lists you do a little more

[@shshyie]

Everytime I see Simmumah Ur-Nokru, I can't help but long for a warlock exotic or aspect that can summon those damn arc moths

[@devonhickman3428]

Completely unrelated but has anyone else noticed that the neomuna lost sectors have new dialogue at the end of ghost talking about the traveller being gone and how the light comes from somewhere deeper within?

[@mazman117]

Can we get a miniboss tier list in the future as well please? Minibosses from dungeons and raids together or separately.

[@CC-2062]

The kell echo seems to similar to gambit bosses (i haven't played gambit in a bit cant remember what they are called ) and a boss like that in gambit prime killed 3 guardians from joxer'e fireteam ( the guardian that was killed in the intro of this season trying to enter the portal ). So it might be stronger that we think.

[@khvostov7g-0x17]

You could have slided in Nezarec to update the raid tier list. Seeing as how was a shell of his former self, S tier is out of question. As a being wielding both Light and Dark, he deserves A-tier but below Crota as Crota was a master of the dark while Nezarec was a new lightbearer and lost a lot of his dark power.

[@Ghost_Toast5000]

Honorable mention: the explosive harpies

[@CC-2062]

S++++++ probably they have more kills out of every boss. I still hear the beeping noise 🥲

[@ddsretro2697]

I’d be interested in seeing maybe adding campaign final bosses/enemies of note to this list

[@Gunth0r]

I feel like you should include ALL the bosses from D1 & D2. Not just dungeons/raids. This way you have much more to compare to and evaluate to make the tier list more rigid.

[@PG-tm9pe]

avarokk is about where he should be, but given thathe is the the dungeon's namesake (grasp of avarice i.e. avarokk) and that both the cosmodrome hive and fallen are fighting over his hoard, the power lies more in the loot than him. the read that he was lucky is partially true, but he'd also been able to hold it for who knows how long prior to our arrival. still very much a power tied to a location, like atheon. we have drifter wondering if kelgorath would be useful as a primeval. maybe a throwaway line, but could have a hint as to how he uses motes to summon. definitely not witness taken that have near universal deployment range, but still, orbit to ground isn't terrible. the read on kell echo being a stand-in for eramis is brilliant.

[@blackburn115]

Dul Incaru be pulling an Afton "i always come back"

[@floofy_kins7904]

24:55 anyone know what smg this is? It looks so smooth bro

[@Yokmakarok]

Can you do Tier List of allied characters based on their lore? Zavala vs Caiatl vs Queen Mara and the others?