Arguing Gender And Genocide With Two Socialists

[@destiny]

Destiny talks to Rem and Perspective Philosophy and they argue about gender, identity, trans issues and genocide. Small break from debates etc to ground our axioms with Rem and Perspective Philosophy Rem ►twitter.com/bath_boi || Perspective Philosophy ►twitter.com/HowethLewis ►kzbin.infovideos

[@ShengFink]

Thanks august, I needed something to fall asleep to and a philosophy and gender talk with rem is very useful :)

[@michaelclarke4009]

DESTINY: GOES DOOR TO DOOR TO PROMOTE A POLITICAL CANDIDATE ALSO DESTONY: AWARENESS DOES NOTHING. ME: DA FUQ DUMBSHIT?!!

[@PJF1981]

@@michaelclarke4009 Try listening next time instead of declaring yourself a dumbshit.

[@michaelclarke4009]

@@PJF1981 what did i miss. please enlighten me lol! destiny made the declaritive statement that awareness is meaningless. he also expressed that he has no idea whats going on with american indigenous people but felt it was ok to make statements about them. im declaring you a dumbshit as well lol

[@michaelclarke4009]

also, i made two comments back to back. is destiny deleting comments? i dont see one here.

[@TheAudioInjection]

"Arguing with two socialists" I just got baited into listening to Rem. Damnit

[@ThinWhiteLuke]

Is REMBathBoi or whatever even a Socialist?

[@lymmy9609]

@@ThinWhiteLuke yes

[@notonfire7318]

I would love for Contrapoints to have a discussion with Destiny about this topic. I think she would agree with him on a lot of things. I can recall she has said somethings like " i wasn't born a woman. I was born a baby. However i do feel like i was born with something which makes my gender intrinsic in a way" But i think it's imposiible for her to talk about these things without getting cancelled by trans twitter, which is really sad.

[@callowaymotorcompany]

Contra can talk about whatever she wants and trans twitter will lap it up.

[@scdocarlos1633]

@@callowaymotorcompany cuz she dont miss

[@notonfire7318]

@@RonponVideos yeah they have from what i know

[@d-extra5814]

That would be funny seeing the far left start calling her a fascist

[@callowaymotorcompany]

@@RonponVideos What's a chunk? 15 people? 20?

[@Condeycon]

God I want to see Destiny talk with the deer person. I’m sure it would be easily his most entertaining convo considering how many times shes managed to make her way into his mind.

[@shockwavesyndrome6433]

Deer can’t speak

[@Teawisher]

Yea, sounds really itneresting.

[@RomoFett_]

Can you stop misgendering It please. (Doe goes by It/Its pronouns)

[@willhau9161]

"it's managed to make its way into his mind" :trolface

[@Jankyito]

Living in his mind rent free

[@wellread8649]

Wow, I forgot what 3 streamers arguing in good faith sounds like.

[@mickeyboy90]

Awesome i hope to see another one in less than 3 years.

[@MrMarfsthotarmy]

if you liked this one go listen to the discussion destiny bastiat and peesco had about defending property, easily one of my favorite discussions outta destiny

[@unconcernedcitizen4092]

@@MrMarfsthotarmy I exclusively watch the bad faith yelling matches. If I want serious discussion, I’m not going to Twitch to find it.

[@PerspectivePhilosophy]

Thanks for having me on, it was a pleasure as always.

[@RomoFett_]

It is nice to see vegans not shy away from the moral aspects of veganism. Remember people, you are not allies to vegans - vegans are the allies to animals!

[@BlakeZeb]

@@RomoFett_ What do you mean with the last bit?

[@RomoFett_]

@@BlakeZeb To keep in mind what and why vegans are fighting. For the marganizled unable to fend for themselves.

[@BlakeZeb]

@@RomoFett_ I gotcha. Yeah, I agree. :) The “you are not allies to vegans” just kinda threw me off lol.

[@StrengthIncarnate]

you're really smart. I remember first seeing you and subbing after your debate with vaush lol

[@zvonomirzuboronovic8662]

British mother: "Hello, dear. How was school?" Otherkin teen: "FFS, mum. How many times do I have to tell you? I'm not a deer, I'm an antelope!"

[@bokajon]

made me laugh =D

[@lawsonharrison6927]

Is a deer otherkin expected to respent a lion otherkins identity?

[@joemamajoastar8708]

@@lawsonharrison6927 no because antelopes are historically more oppressed than the Lion, therefor it is not Kin-Phobia for an antelope to disrespect the lions identity.

[@wolfhide4488]

@@joemamajoastar8708 speciesism and everyone suffers in nature.

[@cowgf1504]

Fuck you for that joke. XD

[@hailskatean]

You know you're in for a ride when it opens up with identifying with a deer

[@pnutdraws]

are they talking about the twitch staff the one that said "all gamers are white supremacists?"

[@thekycklingwizard78]

@@pnutdraws I’m honestly not sure, but I think (hope) there aren’t many other influential deer people

[@pnutdraws]

@@thekycklingwizard78 yea , i mean didn't they literally give them staff power to this person? crazy stuff

[@ksilva2848]

@@pnutdraws it was not a staff that's for sure

[@mt-zf6xp]

If that person gets shot by a hunter in the woods, what happens in their world?

[@dbz287]

I'm surprised Destiny doesn't bring up the little boy who was socialized as a girl and ended up dealing with gender dysphoria even before realizing he was actually born a boy.

[@josszarnick2393]

@@Z50nemesis he did though, John Money was accused of making those two little boy commit sexual actions with each other to affirm their gender roles. You clearly don’t know much about that case.

[@wasteman9548]

@@josszarnick2393 jesus christ just reading that makes me want to not live

[@havenwalton7206]

The person in subject is David Reimer.

[@thekycklingwizard78]

why would someone ever experiment with that? Aren’t there any ethical concerns?

[@havenwalton7206]

@@thekycklingwizard78 Not to bigots when you ain't cishet.

[@a735Alexis]

"I think that gender identity is an intentional state in which an individual identifies within a certain normative engagement with their society and their culture, and they're trying to express their subjectivity; it has to be endorsed internally and expressed performatively." Perspective Philosophy, dropped casually in a conversation with Destiny and Rem.

[@BlakeZeb]

What a legend

[@aploticmonk7289]

King shit

[@Tiffany-fr5um]

@@BlakeZeb how does that make him a legend i don't understand

[@bryanchu5379]

damn that is a very good way to put it

[@themilkman7043]

Word salad andy

[@MostLucid]

Perspective philosophy makes really interesting points. I'd love to see him on the stream more often.

[@generalgrievous4738]

Perspective Philosophy stands for PP lol

[@Twistedhippy]

He has a KZbin channel

[@vegangaze]

@@Twistedhippy pp is a LAD

[@BlakeZeb]

@@vegangaze The LAD.

[@MostLucid]

@@Twistedhippy I know. But it'll be interesting Destiny had in on the show to have discussions on various topics. They both view issues through very different philosophical lenses. So it'd make for very interesting and fruitful conversations. I've also seen the videos they made together in the past and I loved it.

[@BlakeZeb]

“You’ve got 4 minutes” Video is another 25 min long lol.

[@DL-vt2pj]

if someone identifies as a deer can I hunt them during hunting season and not go to jail for murder? probably not...

[@pokerman9108]

sure if they get a gun too... lol

[@Queque2524]

You also need to be careful of the wanton waste laws.

[@pokerman9108]

@@yfzrider13 humans that identify as such could use a gun. Are we not in this hypothetical anymore? Also some deer are delicious, some not so much.

[@tigresuave11]

@@pokerman9108 if you identify as a deer, shouldn't you take on deer properties? Being a deer is not a social construct, so having a gun would be antithetical to anything a deer can possibly do. This runs into the Rachel Dozel issue, where you're only identifying when it's convenient for you. But even then, she at least tried to take on some "properties/stereotypes" A deer person could easily stop talking, live in the woods, and make deer sounds. At least then, they're actually trying. Sounds like they just want to be called a deer, but want all the benefits of being human (aka not being a deer at all). Or are they identifying as a furry, or some kind of cartoon, anthropomorphic deer (which still isn't really a deer, but at least it would map on to their behavior)?

[@MikeTall88]

You not hunting them would be you denying their identity, no? So..straight to jail.

[@ZebraForceKid]

remember Rems " Hasan is morally lucky" arc Classic

[@ksilva2848]

Timeless

[@lordmew5]

Wait what? What does that mean?

[@standardworkaround]

@@lordmew5 that he hasn't actually derived his morals from any understanding or analysis, he was just born into a situation where he happened to be given good morals.

[@jamesbarnett6772]

@@standardworkaround That applies to the vast majority of people on this planet

[@piedpiper6425]

@@jamesbarnett6772 Correct

[@1dweeb]

shoutout to destiny’s editor always coming in clutch

[@ThePainkiller9995]

right in our feeeeeed

[@raquetdude]

More streams like this would be great especially with these two.

[@Esoliken]

You think that, and then you will learn that Rem, as much as I love him, is a SWERF and he will give these really annoying arguments from a communist perspective; they will seem really stupid if you don't take that communist perspective.

[@raquetdude]

@@Esoliken even more of a reason then his false/odd arguments would get taken apart right

[@Esoliken]

@@raquetdude they're definitely not false. It's just a different world perspective. It's already up somewhere in all the debates; it was just a plethora of people hanging out and Destiny actually brought it up as a topic. It was never heated, just a long ass trade off of conversationalist

[@yeerkals]

Shouts out to perspective philosophy, smart dude.

[@EspenAleksLarsen]

Not really, PP is quite unimpressive. He has never said anything original.

[@fabiobalassia]

Unsufferable though.

[@ronjames9936]

@@EspenAleksLarsen Original? What is original to you, political compass guy?

[@jeremias-serus]

Just one shout is enough. Shout out. Not shouts out.

[@mechanomics2649]

@@fabiobalassia Absolutely insufferable. I have no idea how people can stand him.

[@derekstiles5801]

I’m a liberal, and only we can make talking in the same language super confusing. “Are you a man?” “I don’t know what the hell that means?” Uh huh. And the average person would argue that’s the problem. You don’t know what a man is but want to redefine it for everyone.

[@jogadorjnc]

I think the point is that no one actually really knows what that means. That it's ambiguous.

[@chicklegs5316]

I mean what is a man by your definition?

[@joshuawinstead7621]

@@jogadorjnc It's really not very ambiguous whatsoever, most people will instantly recognize "man" as being associated with your biological sex. When they hear, "man," it's immediately designated as "A man is an adult human male."

[@bingbong3643]

@@chicklegs5316 Sex is a biological term that defines a man or a woman based on biological characteristics. What you are asking is what is masculine and feminine. That’s a completely different subject. Men and women both have masculine and feminine traits. That doesn’t mean we don’t know that man is defined by sex and XY chromosomes.

[@jogadorjnc]

@@joshuawinstead7621 Except we have expressions like "man up" and "be a real man" which run completely separate from that. Man generally refers to gender, not sex.

[@Leinja]

"Arguing Gender And Genocide", I guess Twitter finally made Destiny go off the deep end.

[@Rossfielding1]

As a Brit, I found his use of the weather wonderful to make his arguement :D He doesn't understand the systemic weather problems we face :D

[@manfromdelmontesays]

As a Brit, bullshit!!!!

[@Bminutes]

1. Gender is a social construct 2. I was born this way Pick one

[@guitarflori]

No. You misunderstand social constructs.

[@KingstonHawke]

@@guitarflori I think what they actually meant is that... 1. Gender is not a reference to physical biology, but to how I identify within the context of my cultures social construct. 2. I was born with an inate inclination towards a certain gender. Both of these can't be true given that the first claims that gender identity is entirely dependent on a given societal context, and the second premise claims that gender exist outside of any specific social environment. I could be wrong, but that's what I think they were trying to highlight. And if so, they are correct.

[@KingstonHawke]

@Lydia How can you be assigned a lived experience at birth? Doctors don't assign gender at all, they observe sexual differences and then classify you based on that.

[@emperortgp2424]

@Lydia They're not arguing if it's real or not, they're arguing if it's intrinsic.

[@Spock149]

It's so funny watching rem's debate with doe and then going back in time and watching this one back when rem thought they identified as a deer

[@spacedoohicky]

They don't identify as a deer?

[@RomoFett_]

May I ask where this conversation is?

[@BlakeZeb]

@@RomoFett_ I think it was on chudlogic’s channel. Rem and DM talk about this issue, then doe comes on later.

[@LeidenPierce]

@@spacedoohicky to be fair to Rem, they did identify as a deer. It turns out they were Only Pretending and it was A Joke though. Imo, when call yourself Doe, dress like a deer, act like a deer on stream, and tweet "I'm literally actually a deer" on Twitter, you can't be mad when people take you seriously. Fortunately, they didn't seem to get mad, and the conversation between them and Rem was pretty cordial. It was only Demonmama who was trying to grandstand and feign outrage at Rem for being clueless and thinking they literally identify as a deer. From what I understand from their convo, Doe (obviously) doesn't believe they are biologically a deer, or a deer brain trapped in a human body. Instead, they are essentially just nonbinary, but use "deergender" as a way to explain their aesthetic? Like, "hey, if I've got a nonbinary void of gender expression here, I may as well put 'deer' in to replace masculine or feminine traits." (Personally I think that's dumb and I agree it's not using words the way anyone else uses them but whatever.)

[@LeidenPierce]

@@RomoFett_ i watched it with destiny reacting on the Destiny Vault channel. It was the vod from 2021-07-22, part 1. The demonmama debate is about 2 hours in i think, and Doe comes on after, but it cuts off halfway through that part.

[@nocuh]

Keeping those axioms grounded like a mischievous child

[@doubleshine]

Rem is my favorite anti-hero of this channel

[@hugonamenlos7218]

I feel like he has grown alot in the last year

[@jeremias-serus]

@@hugonamenlos7218 So true. I nearly gasped when Rem said he wouldn't weasel out of the epistemic linguistic question.

[@BlakeZeb]

@@hugonamenlos7218 Yeah I agree. He comes off as a lot less pretentious and “holier than thou” I always kinda liked him but the last few times I’ve seen him were great

[@hugonamenlos7218]

@@BlakeZeb i could not stand that high horse stance he took back then but i think we both evolved to be less extreme

[@Cole-te2rz]

The difference between a trans man and a “tomboy” is that a trans man will not want a female body, a tomboy is cool with having a female body and just likes masculine things. Trans men can be feminine just like cis men.

[@TheDirtyFritz]

But if there is no such thing as a male or female body than what’s the difference?

[@faidheanta2611]

@@TheDirtyFritz male and female denote sex not gender

[@jeremias-serus]

This would be the colloquial/normal understanding. The purpose for why Destiny brought up the idea of a tomboy was for philosophical purposes in an attempt to compare the understandings of it within their ideologies.

[@KingstonHawke]

What you just described is why the entire distinction is nonsense. For one, what is a female body if not a body that is biologically female? A body that is more feminine cosmetically isn't a female body. And simply wanting more feminine features doesn't play into how we define that biological distinction. You have to play fast and loose with all of these terms to even try to make them make a little sense. And second, what are masculine things? If a man likes other men is he not masculine because historically more women perform that behavior than men? What if he would rather watch rom-coms than pro wrestling? It's funny, because all these people that claim to be left wing start sounding like Ted Cruz to justify this nonsense. As if certain preferences make you less of a man.

[@ambere3564]

Also a trans man will actively want a male body. Very important point that a lot of people miss

Love these videos as they're extremely eye opening, just wish there was less references to philosophers and philosophical concepts without them being explained as I feel like a lot of the conversation gets lost on me personally as I don't understand some of them lol

[@gleekthemonkey4570]

Oh God, this is gonna be some philosophy shit that I won’t understand. Lol

[@fog_goat4168]

Actually so this live and I was so impressed by this two that immediately subscribed to them after watching

[@ThePainkiller9995]

these people unironically do thE "it's socially constructed so it doesnt exist and is completely meaningless". good job confirming the horseshoes theory guys

[@jeremias-serus]

It unironically is the horseshoe theory and it's fucking insane

[@Simjorfeo]

Some right wingers reject the statement in that way to lead it ad absurdum while some lefties embrace it to justify their useless made up categories. It's very different and not a horseshoe at all, their opinions are diametrically opposed.

[@rayc766]

Destiny has clarified on many occasions that he means it’s “arbitrary” but not meaningless (in fact, very meaningful).

[@kmoney890]

my favorite REM video to this day is the one where him and destiny are arguing while Vaush played Terraria good memes

[@Immor7alBG]

@KA Chad analytical philosopher intellectually outpacing virgin continental philosopher.

[@WalRUs1216]

My favorite supervillains in the Destiny Philosophy arc. Rem and Pp are...dare I say.../myphilosophers/

[@wowjack8944]

This sentence makes 0 sense to me and i spend lots of time on the internet. What does ''/myphilosophers/'' mean?

[@ЯмбаДула]

@@wowjack8944 He's trying to fit in by using 4chan lingo Don't worry about it

[@othertheseus6039]

This was a really good convo

[@djctai9288]

rem thinking gender is all social conditioning is crazy to me.

[@lordzekrom2]

Yeah. That's a take that I don't think is supported from research, and it leads to potentially negative policy outcomes for people.

[@pdpgb]

Well it is all social conditioning when you define it as having traits that society also arbitrarily defines as "masculine" or "feminine". Also words have no inherent meaning so we can always just play around with them until our statement makes sense.

[@zacharychristy8928]

Rem: "I completely reject that statement" *Proceeds to disagree with something unrelated*

[@SitchAndAdamShow]

Gender identity and gender dysphoria are believed to be innate and biological. There are twin studies on this. Rem or anyone else making the claim that trans people wouldn't have to transition if society was more accepting have no idea what they're talking about and are going against the current science/medical understanding of gender dysphoria. Both APA's also maintain that many gender differences and behaviors stem from biology as well. People making the "everything is social" argument are science deniers.

[@Ironraven24]

Can you link the studies pls

[@MaximusTCR]

Rem's philosophical "truth" always seems to correspond with in vogue politics. So brave

[@sirlionson2207]

Pls let this be the Sunday video

[@luxeayt6694]

How could a twin study prove something to be biological? They still grew up in the same society unless separated at birth and placed in vastly different countries. Even then, you would need to repeat this experiment multiple times to have a sufficient sample size to prove this. I haven't personally read any articles surounding this topic but I highly doubt any study fits these criteria.

[@nathanjora7627]

Thing is that if there is no biological component to being trans then it doesn’t matter whether or not twins are raised in the same society or even family, the probability of someone being trans given the fact that their sibling is trans should be the same regardless of if the sibling is their true twin, a false twin, or a non twin, so to test whether or not something is biological we can still compare and contrast the probability of being trans given that a sibling is trans between true twins and everyone else. If it’s 100% biological, wend expect close to 100% of true twins to both be trans if either is, if it’s 100% social then we would expect the same frequency of transness for at least false and true twins, and if it’s partly one and partly the other then we’d expect a statistically significant difference in the proportion of trans who also have a trans true twin and the proportion of trans who have a trans false twin or non twin sibling.

[@Slembi]

You should get these two on for an episode of Destiny in Moderation.

[@RetroAndChill]

When it comes to identifying as a deer, from what I can tell, the usage of trans language might not be the correct way to look at things. The otherkin community has a heavy spiritual bent to it (as indicated by the fact that some of them identify as mythological creatures) and might be better analyzed through the lens of religion as opposed to trans identity.

[@RetroAndChill]

@UCnDI_GmIg8b73U6lnnsQfwA Oh I agree. I was moreso talking about analyzing it as a socio-cultural phenomenon. I do believe that freedom of religion dictates that we allow them to practice as they please, but as you say, there is no obligation for anyone to indulge those beliefs if they themselves don't believe in it.

[@crushinnihilism]

what do you think about applying the otherkin language claim to trans? By this i mean, lefties arguments implicit imply a sense of dualism in which you are different from the body your born in.

[@MiBasse]

@@crushinnihilism Does it imply that? Your brain is a significant part of your body, and the argument is rather that your brain does not comply with the sexual characteristics of your body as viewed by society.

[@crushinnihilism]

@@MiBasse i believe it does imply a sense i dualism, evidenced by the language of internal feeling. Nobody in these spaces argue that the brain structures in trans people are constructed more like the opposite sex. That would be a reasonable and empirical argument. I doubt left leaning people would accept that argument because it opens space to claim X isnt really trans due to brain structure or something like that. Instead we get arguments centered on internal feelings. They make claims like, X is a man in a womans body. Which clearly implies some sort of dualism.

[@MiBasse]

@@crushinnihilism but they do argue that. I've seen several leftists cite studies that show, that the brains of trans people seem to exhibit patterns that more closely mirror that of the opposite gender than what they were assigned at birth.

[@Woodsy2575]

I’m getting really tired of the “reality can be whatever I want it to be” approach to dealing with the outside world. The people in this conversation all implicitly believe that the people who think that they are deer are in fact, not deer but deeply disturbed people, the only line being drawn is how much you are willing to indulge the delusion. The concept of “personal truth” has been stretched so far that the material facts of the universe get thrown out because they clash with a single person’s feelings.

[@FullOnMetalHead1995]

Transphobe

[@MostLucid]

Trans women are women. Change my mind.

[@jaycrow6871]

you need to consider a re-framing on a few points. The point of uniqueness with transsexuals is there condition and day to day lives are made worse when its easy to indulge and get out of the way. Its more a practical thing more then anything else. The facts of the universe never get thrown out though. Its really important to remember the facts of the universe cant get thrown out. They are always the facts regardless of what anyone thinks any etiquette, law, state etc. The natural world is the absolute regardless of what anyone thinks about anything at all.

[@wasteman9548]

@Emanuel the fact that actual people will think ur cringe af

[@wydmark]

@@FullOnMetalHead1995 go outside

[@scramblex2692]

"if i woke up tomorrow and i was a woman i wouldnt care that much" if something happens to you and it doesnt make you upset, are you really a woman?

[@eli8444]

Thrity years from now I will have my brain graphed into the computer of an advanced war machine. I'll ask a geriatric and grumpy Steven "Am I a Type-387 Hellion Spider Tank?"

[@BenWard29]

I think all of this is probably true, but my brain hates thinking about it. These are things we "feel"- and trying to science it out makes my head hurt. Give me something concrete to measure or classify- cool. Trying to classify and validate someone else's "feelings"... please kill me.

[@DudokX]

Rem is so right about audiences loving drama so they reward if streamer gets into some

[@wolfhide4488]

Its kind of obvious right look at OTV they are a bunch of gamers with no real drama would exist poke and there fan community create it based on not just having conversations they hate a viewpoint and don't even hear counter arguments its all drama for nothing but attention and reward.

[@Kayzewolf]

"I don't know how you can be a non-binary gay" THANK YOU. This is the biggest mindfuck that no one has been able to clarify. I mean, how can you be attracted to the same gender if your gender is basically undefined? Or does that mean you're attracted to other non-binaries? Cause like, if you're attracted to men and say you're gay, isn't it invalidating your nonbinary identity? Also the whole "gay culture" is... Ugh. It just feels weird to quantify homosexuality as having some specific culture outside of attraction to the same gender. Like, can a person only attracted to the opposite gender (straight) then be gay for the culture?

[@jackriley6936]

I mean I’m bi and I think most masculine dudes are unattractive; I just love cock. I think most times we categorize sexuality as relating to, yknow, sex

[@KingstonHawke]

Because the binary he's actually referencing is the sexual one. That's the dishonesty of the claim. Most people use pronouns to reference sex, not gender. It's impossible to even be gay without referencing sexual biology. The term is literally called being homosexual, not homogendered. It's funny, because your second point is true too! These trans people are actually far right extremist when it comes to sexuality. For any of their rhetoric to make sense we have to subscribe to very rigid ideas of what behaviors a man is allowed to engage in and still be called a man. You can't just be a guy who is attracted to other guys, you're either a trans-woman, or apart of some larger sub-category of men. It's everything that feminism taught us was stupid 100 years ago.

[@KingstonHawke]

@Lydia They are not "men" in the same way that "man" is defined in reference to homosexuality. There's a sleight of hand being performed. You're using the same word, but referencing different ideas when you do.

[@pdpgb]

If we label "gay" as "same sex attraction" then you could easily be a non binary biological man who is attracted to men. How is this the biggest mystery of LGBTQMNOPRR+ ideology?

[@raz1572]

I think it's just an easier way to convey who they're attracted to. Like even if you consider yourself enby, but present male, people are going to get what you mean pretty easily.

[@Rose-rx4zn]

Nothing like watching destiny at 3 am waiting to see the amogus imposter .

[@TiagoLageira]

Do they identify as a male or female deer? Or non binary deer? 🤔

[@daffyuser]

They don't actually identify as a deer, Rem was incorrect and was corrected in a later conversation with that person (and acknowledged it)

[@mikel27180]

Bad faith moment right here

[@onepartyroule]

Gender identity is different from gender. Before the word gender was appropriated to reference gender identity is was/is a synonym for biological sex. To be clear people should be saying "gender identity" instead of simply "gender" when referring to the subjective sense of gender, so as not to confuse it with a biological/material/literal reality. You even get people using terms like male and female confused with gender identity, it's a total mess. So much confusion has been created through the messy appropriation of that word.

[@JMyrk]

Most people when they say gender they just mean sex. When i say I'm a man, what I say is I am an homo-sapiens mâle, when I say i love women, i mean : I love homo-sapiens females. I'm all for helping transgender people, using the pronom they feel confortable in, but personaly i won't date someone with a dick, even if she say she's a woman. And I won't see trans women as a regular woman since I can see there is clearly a difference.

[@onepartyroule]

@@nishm8 Yep, but I’m not interested in the approval of silly people. I think it more important to tell the truth.

[@radred609]

Gender and sex have been connected, but still distinct since before english existed. You're right that a lot of people get confused with their use of terms and use male/female interchangebly with man.woman, but linguists from hundreds of years ago understood that gender =/= sex.

[@brutuslugo3969]

@@radred609 prove that linguist have known the sex gender distinction

[@onepartyroule]

@@radred609 If you’re using gender to refer to different ways of expressing masculinity and femininity as males and females then, yes that is true. But I’m not aware of any culture that distinguished between that and people who wanted to be considered the opposite sex in any kind of literal way, let alone because they had an internal sense of being the opposite sex.

[@rickyrecardo4150]

Femboy woman? I'd consider myself very open minded, but those two words very much contradict eachother. Femboy makes one assume that you're a man that acts more feminine. If you identify as a woman I don't think you can be a "femboy". A trans man csn most definitely be a femboy aswell as non binery people, but I don't think cis or trans women can be femboys.

[@pdpgb]

Yea but I've been told that words are social constructs that can mean anything so no amount of logic and definitions you use can ever negate somebody identifying as a man AND a woman AND a femboy and a dolphin at the same time because words mean both nothing and whatever's convenient at any given time.

[@d-extra5814]

Imagine caring lol

[@timekeeper2538]

It's the "I'm not like other girls" way of saying they're Non-binary.

[@bc9554]

theres no logic anymore, you just say words to be quirky and unique now

[@matsab7930]

1:18:00 - I’m sorry, but it’s so easy to be environmentally friendly when you never developed past a tribal way of life. Without industrialisation and the massive population growths that came with it, we’d never have caused the climate change we did. If natives had industrialised, they’d have had the exact same outcomes as we did.

[@ScholarVisual]

Im fine with people identifying by whatever they want to identify with. Just dont call me a bigot for thinking it silly that your a deer.

[@Yaawei]

Would love to hear more of these good faith discussions that actually lead to somewhere instead of screaming competitions.

[@seeman24]

It's great two hear two really intelligent people speak to each other...and Rem

[@lymmy9609]

Stop bullying my boy. rem is always right. Rem is a gigachad

[@doesntMetter1]

On the 2 hour mark I remembered I already saw this whole convo live, Jesus

[@ryanwhitfield100]

That was a great conversation. Made me think

[@mahdilj5882]

haven't watch more then 2 mins but im very excited about this :)

[@julieherz8909]

Its presumptuous to say Catcher in the Rye will not speak to an indigenous person the same as a white person. The whole point of stories is that they unite people based on universal human experiences. Thats why I can be black and deeply understand the writings of shakespeare, a man who lived hundreds of years ago in England. To think that we all cannot relate to certain unified experiences or connect deeply with people who in no way resemble us is so warped and is the type of new-woke thinking that borders on ethnic determinism.

[@kevinz8619]

... Do you experience the color red in the same way a blind person does? Your premise is entirely untrue. This is an extremely broad statement I'm not even sure why you would attempt to argue. Your imagination is not a substitute for real lived experience.

[@julieherz8909]

@@kevinz8619 That is the whole point. I do not know if I experience the color red the same as you do let alone the way a blind person does. Its that way with consciousness and internal experiences like gender.

[@kevinz8619]

@@julieherz8909 So 1) you agree that people have different experiences and perspectives. 2) These experiences cannot always be bridged. As in the case of blind people and people who can see. 3) We know both from personal experience and the experience of others that understanding or experiencing certain things/events will sometimes greatly change our perspective. 4) Therefore, an indigenous individual will, in the general case, have less cultural elements in their experiences that will allow them to connect with Catcher in the Rye as opposed to their own Indigenous tales.

[@julieherz8909]

@@kevinz8619 1) Yes 2)I don't know if they're ever bridged. I think there can never be a way in which I can describe to you what I see as red any more than to a blind person. You may experience it totally different than I. 3)Yes 4) No. The beauty about classics like Shakespeare (england), Crime and Punishment (russia), Catcher in the Rye(america), is that it is not the specific cultural aspects we relate to that draws us to love them (ie none of us have went to a ball, none of us have been to Russia, none of us have been fencing or in a prep school) but the universal aspects which outlive time and place and are part of the human experience-- the story of love, the story of struggle and of morality, the story of being unable to fit in with a modernizing world and losing so much hope in humanity that you want to live as a recluse. The absolute wonder of these books is that I can grow up in Ethiopia and read them and feel deeply that humans are basically the same. It is also what allows me to hope that if someone wrote very specifically about my experience you would understand it too, despite having very little experience living in Africa.

[@kevinz8619]

@@julieherz8909 The problem is, in the creation of these works there are necessary assumptions on a shared bounty of lived experiences that an author by necessity take for granted. It is nearly impossible, as an individual to, 1) be fully cognizant of every individual signifier we have built over our lives. 2) delineate those signifiers from a set of "universal human experiences" (if that even exists) 3) then deconstruct them to reconstruct them for a general audience, for every other individual human. There will always be works that speak more or less to an individual, based on how many of these presupposed experiences they actually have in their individual lives or cultural fabric. For indigenous people this will be their indigenous culture. (Just to be clear, I'm not denying the power of books, or of language in general to bridge these divides. To allow an individual to gain some small insight into something they, in reality know nothing about. But that's all that it is. A small piece of the experience that someone else would receive, going through the same things. You will not be traumatized with PTSD, no matter how strongly you read or watch a movie on fighting in a war, no matter how realistic it is. Maybe once we have VR technology this level of immersion will be possible, but until then, we simply are not there yet.)

[@joebest-rotheray493]

I'm in the UK, I love the rain and I think trans women are women, so +1 for Rem's theory

[@lionwithmanbun7204]

Nice virtue signalling bro.

[@bryanpartington3260]

@@lionwithmanbun7204 How is he virtue signalling ? To be honest I doubt they were really being serious , about that theory. If they were, well thats just dumb.

[@sommerblume9671]

@@lionwithmanbun7204 Thinking trans women are women is a very low bar to set. Everything else is either genuine or a meme cus UK is constantly pissed on by clouds, I'd know, I live and love it here lol.

[@lionwithmanbun7204]

@@sommerblume9671 thinking trans women are women is not a low bar to set when you lose your job over not thinking that. in the UK or get arrested on a hate crime from dead naming. The real questions here are, are you a sheep who goes along with whatever your oligarchs want, or are you ill informed and don't know about ppl losing their jobs or being arrested in your country over trans issues, or are you trying to psychologically abuse me with gas lighting.

[@sommerblume9671]

@@lionwithmanbun7204 What the actual fuck are you on about lol. I call people by what they wanna be called because I'd like the same for me even though I'm cis, simple as that. Not gonna get into some deep shit with you bc you're giving me serious creep or troll vibes with all the assumptions and accusing me of gas lighting over me saying respecting people is a low bar, as in, everyone should respect people at the bare minimum. Like. What the fuck. I don't give a damn about these things because I'm trying to sort out my own life and I don't go around purposefully misgendering people. Just gonna ignore you now.

[@jkrt8722]

What a great convo

[@phillipoliverholtz9226]

Haddnt seen this one. Maybe but discounted it. To me this proves destinys stance on "woke" culture. Backed off 150 logic trees due to the twitch ban, and became a glysophate resistant weed :))

[@HonoredHugs]

guys it actually works! this did show up right in my feeeeeeed

[@magoog9864]

gender identity is an interaction between external and internal processing. It isn't solely innate or external.

[@CrestOfArtorias]

To Rems question: do you identify as a man? I don't understand the purpose of that question, I am male, thus I am a man, whether I identify myself as such is irrelevant. The material conditions of the universe are not changed by me wanting to be something different. If the question is aimed at whether being male is part of my identity, the answer is a resounding "no". I see no use in it, I am me, my sins and my virtues make me who I am, being male or female is as useless of a self-identifier as being blonde or having green eyes. They are a part of you, but neither define who you are and who you are is all that matters.

[@Jorg303]

Finally someone with sense

[@mechanomics2649]

I think that if it were this simple, gender dysphoria wouldn't exist.

[@CrestOfArtorias]

@@mechanomics2649 I don't see why that would be the case. Most people do not seem to have a firm grasp on who they are in the first place.

[@lukasmolcic5143]

​@@CrestOfArtorias I think its usually subconscious, I don't really think about being male, but I am sure there are a bunch of decisions I make with that implicit identification, if I were trans I guess the expectations from society caused by my physical appearance would come into conflict with that which I subconsciously feel about myself and that would make my gender identity come to the surface and make me aware of it directly which would cause the dysphoria.

[@KingstonHawke]

@@mechanomics2649 It is this simple. The reason gender dysphoria exist is the same reason modern religion exist. People can't handle the truth so they make up convoluted nonsense to justify what they wish were true. Just go watch any two trans people's youtube channels, they will never agree across the board on even how to define all of this stuff. Riley and DemonMomma are a perfect example of that. You absolutely can not reconcile their opposing views of what it means to be trans. And neither of them fully agree with the medical community they reference either.

[@onepartyroule]

@1:55:05 He's struggling because he's not clear about what a man is. The _only_ thing that is essential in order for him to be a _literal_ man is to be male, but his confusion about what words reference has inhibited his ability to talk coherently about himself re his sex and gender expression. It astonishes me when people cannot answer the most obvious questions, like "what is a man?". As a somewhat "gender non-conforming" girl (self identified "tom-boy" -- the "boy" in that term meant figuratively, not literally), if i'd been asked as a child "what makes you a girl?" i would have referenced my biology. It wouldnt have occurred to me to ever say things like _liking pink, wearing dresses, playing with baby dolls, not being aggressive, or being more agreeable, etc etc._ The performative aspects of gender expression are irrelevant to whether or not i am a woman, because the primary (and non-negotiable) definition of "woman" is " adult female". People who use words like "woman" to ONLY refer to a subjective psychological experience, are completely ignoring the primary definition of that word -- the reason why it exists AT ALL -- and the definition that has the most utility, which is referencing a material reality. Being a relatively more "feminine" male (whether psychologically or behaviorally) does not have any implications for whether or not you are a man. As an adult, it astonishes me that such regressive ideas about gender expression -- re what that means for what you are ontologically -- have gained so much traction.

[@flatplant]

I feel like there could be a comfortable middle ground when it comes to indigenous assimilation by the federal government. That is to say, in a similar way to how european cultures assimilate when moving from their homes to america or canada they don't have to lose their culture as a whole but maybe as a byproduct of assimilation some nuances will ve lost while still being able to maintain the greater culture as a whole. Like maybe it would be much better for a communities sake to preserve their languages through standardization rather than upholding every nuance of 100's of dialects. In summary, you gain preservation of a cultural ideal while losing some nuance of said culture as an exchange

[@MrNoobthenub]

The terminally online toxicity lies in labeling "losing some nuance of said culture as an exchange" as a freaking genocide.

[@pdpgb]

Europeans coming to America assimilate into American culture EXTREMELY easily and usually by 2nd or 3rd generation they're just generic "white people" who maybe know their grandmother was from Italy or something. So that's a terrible example if you want natives to maintain any semblance of their culture.

[@adamanderson3042]

In true philosophy bro style, the introduction of ever more complex and intelligent sounding words and terms completely disguises the actual content of the discussion, which is that Rem totally misunderstood PP and Destiny's points dozens of times in ways that are really surprising and make no sense.

[@politicalprofit9080]

When you're rich you don't have to respect anyone or anything

[@gmontanher7588]

Sigma rule #3137

[@maartenpsion9036]

I think perspective philosophy is a great guy to have around. Very good interlocutor.

[@billdobbing1999]

Rem is a waifu's name

[@billieeisenhower406]

cute

[@MrFram]

Who's Rem?

[@MrFram]

@@JINX1441 the joke ... ... your head

[@jeremias-serus]

Emilia superior. Actually, most ReZero girls superior to Rem

[@ksilva2848]

Cringe

[@LaFlamer]

Really enjoyed this discussion

[@idrinkcofe]

“I completely agree with you” feels like the safe version of ya but no

[@Narcissistic_Penguin]

Note to the editor (for what it's worth, i'm no expert) I didn't bother clicking this video for a while because I couldn't be bothered to listen to Destiny argue with two random socialists (as the title implies) but if you'd named Rem and especially Perspective Philosophy in the title I would have insta clicked

[@0ktk]

This trio deserves a podcast

[@dafish691]

trio?

[@0ktk]

@@dafish691 destiny, rem, perspective philosopy

[@IHazSkillzBOI]

Oh my god pleaseee the daily uploads

[@casko9626]

Rem always sounds terrified of saying the wrong think lool

[@CocytusFrost]

identifying as anything you want for whatever reason you want= imagine struggling to grind your league of legends rank and all the hardships you went through just to find out your entire team bought their diamond accounts

[@GingermusPrime]

So 2015 sargon was right… slippery.. meet slope.

[@cobaj6226]

Super good convo

[@dlugi4198]

Guys, this is so fucked. I am actually getting recommended J. Peterson as next video.

[@jaeva7276]

SAME WTF

[@longstrider2734]

What do you guys think of Peterson? A co-worker of mine told me to listen to his podcasts. But I just haven't gotten around to it.

[@dlugi4198]

@@longstrider2734 His opinions are pretty dumb and he confirms and creates this annoying conservative worldview, but his advices can be helpful and he doesn't fabricate facts. Could be worse. His podcast have sometimes good guest.

[@vincentmartin9667]

I still arguing over the mean of words is still a thing. Never noticed that until recently, but once you see it you can't unsee it.

[@thesensiblesocialist]

I don't think being transgender can be meaningfully disconnected from gender dysphoria, though I know not all trans people experience it. The fact that some people's brains are shaped by exposure or lack thereof to androgens and that leaves them with observable neurological and behavioral differences is the strongest argument for observing the trans identity as valid. It's the transmed argument, yes, but I think it's the most effective. Once we get into all these metaphysical word puzzles, people's eyes start to glaze over, most of all conservatives.

[@thesoundofbrown]

re: the early convo - the guys are talking about people overdoing their post structuralist philosophy etc etc. The thing I think people miss is that this isn't a thought through system of logic or whatever. What we're seeing is radical activism. The only driving principle is that trans/nb people are always right and get whatever they want. Any sort of problematic implications that arise from that don't matter and/or any reasoned justification is post hoc to that first principle.

[@NamelessMarshall]

It's funny how maybe conservatives had a point back in 2015 huh?

[@shizuoheiw]

Honest take on destiny as a creator, I used to come here and hate watch and leave snarky coments to argue with the fans, and honestly I still feel like he entrapped Jontron in a really unfair way, but seeing some of the more recent stuff and I've been impressed with his consistency and ability to call out his side of the isle, I probably agree with less than 10% of what he believes but I think I'll start watching to help vary my political diet and avoid an echo chamber

[@woosh2055]

That's awesome!

[@dukecountu9475]

That's a pretty bad argument for why TERFs are so popular in the UK, the reason it's so common among feminists is because there isn't really an institutionally powerful "religious right" in the UK threatening to recriminalize gay marriage or abortion. Because of this the "we're all in this together" attitude of progressive factions in American politics hasn't developed to the same extent, and there is less fear that infighting will lead to the "bad guys" gaining ground. Also JK Rowling is massively respected among British liberals, especially older more moderate ones, so she has done a lot to shift the Overton window on the topic. It would be similar in America if Michelle Obama came out as a gender critical. Legitimacy is a currency, and if you have a lot of it your words carry a lot of political weight.

[@daffyuser]

As a brit i don't think Rowling has done anything to shift the window, i think there is just simply overlap with her fans, HP fans and those particular liberals (wine liberals? idk). And NOW that's happened, and those people have grown up, they essentially turn around and imply HP had an effect on their beliefs or that "yeah rowling is right about trans people i love her" in a more post-hoc way. I don't think rowling or HP had a part in forming their political beliefs, which are often not well thought out, or non existent anyway

[@dukecountu9475]

@@daffyuser It's not so much Harry Potter fans. JK Rowling has a lot of respect because there is a feeling, especially among older libs, that she got young people reading again. This goes back to Blair's whole thing on the importance of an educated populace. That combined with her history of advocacy for progressive causes like remaining in the EU. She had done a lot to establish her progressive bona fides before the whole TERF thing, so that when she started saying that stuff a lot of British libs were like "now hold up, let's hear what she has to say here."

[@daffyuser]

ty for clarification

[@digppa25]

South park called it!. Gerald's a dolphin

[@BigTibbs78]

If everything comes down to nurture, wtf would anyone choose to be LGBT in a super religious/ conservative family. How do you even explain LGBT ppl existing in those spaces if it all comes down to nurture. I swear, Rem doesn't think this through at all.

[@MitchellM929]

Nurture doesn't equal choice. The whole point of both nature and nurture is that it's not you choosing what you are like - in one case it's down to biology/genetics, in the other you are a product of environment and upbringing. It's not about choice.

[@lordmew5]

@@MitchellM929 ok but if environment is all that matters then theoretically we should be able to grow 100 boys a certain way and they will all come out the same way. Which how we understand it now isn't true.

[@basedcentrist3056]

People choose to do rebellious things all the time even to their own detriment. Drug addicts are a good example. But if you just open your eyes for a minute you'd see people engaging in this kind of behaviour all the time

[@keithporteous9281]

The lofty Destiny and his search engine knowledge base. A youtube expert.

[@justanothernick3984]

This might come off as really transphobic, just as a disclaimer. I have come to the mindset that I feel it's okay for all people to identify as they choose. Men, women, trans, superheroes (like I did as a kid) and between. I'm not culturally there yet as to being comfortable with how to treat people who chooses to break social norms though. So not to mistreat anyone, I try to be polite or avoid confrontation if the first option isn't available. But as we culturally are shifting towards a more inclusive mentality, I guess most people aren't there yet and the trans or LGBTQ+ community needs to have understanding for the masses not yet comprehending all of this. It takes time and experience. So if someone traditionally seen as male is misgendered by accident, the way (if even necessary) to correct them is really relevant to how people will perceive you. So say I accidentally calls someone by their non-preferred pronoun, I don't think it is in that persons best interest to "school" me on that issue because that might come off as rude. Now I don't think I am that hostile to being corrected but some people are really triggered by that. So be who you want to be but don't rub it in the face of others just for the point of scoring attention tokens.

[@tylertbone9]

It’s “proud to be” anybodies. I feel like some people feel the need to be a part of a group in order to feel included. LGBTQ+ is never going to be properly integrated into society unless they start treating themselves as individuals rather than a group. To add, I feel like a lot less people would “care” if you’re LGBTQ+ if they were to just keep that on the down low (to clarify: I am not saying it is a bad thing to be LGBTQ+), which I believe to be an action of an individual: keeping your personal traits to yourself and the ones you care about.

[@josefcastillo8220]

The person(Lydia )above my comment made some good points.All I have to add is that you’re point sounds like you don’t wanna be told you’re doing something harmful. Many ppl will understand if you make a mistake, most of the time “schooling” I’ve seen has Been online interactions, though if it has happened to you offline, I can understand the hesitancy. If you misgender someone more than a couple of times, their irritation is reasonable as they are the ones who have to accustom to others instead of the other way around

[@justanothernick3984]

@Lydia How do one fit in? By adapting like a chameleon to the environment and culture you want to be in. I know we want it to be everybody being nice to each other regardless of how someone presents themselves but that will never be the case. In power dynamics there needs to be regulations for these types of things but people will judge by the way one represent oneself. Wear a hoodie, some stereotype. Wear a suit? Another stereotype. Wear a short dress? A tank top? A rabbit outfit? Too much make-up? Too little? Piercings? Tattoos? People will react to the way you present yourself. Yes, trans people have gotten a lot of trash their way (and still do) but what I'm saying is that if you want people to treat you without judgement then don't strafe too far off the norm. If bird lady or cat lady don't want to be seen as such, try to adapt when about town, if you can. Is that fair? No, it isn't, but that's the way we treat each other. And we suck at it. And I hope we can do better but we are really bad at conflicting ideas too so, what do we do? Be the change you want to see. So trans people and others need to behave really good and build allies where possible and avoid people with conflicting views. That way they and their narrow views (maybe my narrow mind too) becomes the less valued by contemporary culture. Same with family. Relationships are interactive, not static and depending on some traditions. If people don't get along, avoid them, even family (on the downside, this is what cults use too). I wish families would value the relationship between the members and not by how their peers want them to be. Don't bicker with people accepting roughly the same value set about small issues. I don't know... I can't live up to that same standard myself so... All the best to you Lydia and this wasn't directed at you specifically. And I got a bit long winded. My apologies.

[@justanothernick3984]

@@josefcastillo8220 True, most people get defensive when being corrected. All fights aren't worth fighting. I see only two ways of dealing with a conflict, active and passive. And if I behave badly and misgender someone repeatedly I deserve to be "dealt with". Someone might not want to share my company as a passive action or in a place of commerce for instance, and one would have to be actively removed, I agree. I (if being that bully) would hopefully be asked to leave or be removed. Q: Do you see me as an "opponent" to your viewpoint?

[@tylertbone9]

@Lydia I guess I would have to somewhat disagree. It’s time to try something new. Obviously this method isn’t working. In my eyes, the more one expresses a narrative of oppression, the more oppressors will arise. Just my two cents. Remain to yourself and better things will come. Just do you I guess, no need to seek attention as OP said. Sadly, we live in an attention seeking society so I have to say that maybe you are correct. But it can be changed

[@wareagle3651]

Gotta love how Rem is the universal spokesman for all indigenous peoples of Canada. Even if he belongs to a certain tribe, it seems like that’s a big group of different tribes with different norms and beliefs. It’s nuts to me how he speaks of all tribes as one huge group. That’s soooo colonial, bro!

[@leot-j6312]

An American, Canadian and Brit come together

[@feliz2564]

Now we need an Aussie to slice things up lol

[@onepartyroule]

American, Canadian and a Geordie =)

[@azrogue286]

They're just wrong. It's not right or wrong, there's no moral judgment behind it, but when the majority of society uses the term man or woman they aren't talking about the behaviors, they're talking about penises and vaginas. Period. Hair length, clothing, make up, all these things can change and people will just shrug or be confused, but it doesn't change the initial anchoring observation: that they have a penis or a vagina. That's the important distinction that society categorizes. Change the definition and they'll just make a new one that means "person with penis" or "person with vagina." But they won't willingly surrender that definition because the category is so important to our social wellbeing as humans

[@standardworkaround]

I'm not sure there is much ground to assume that gender is innate "because trans people exist". You can react against your physicality or the perceived view of others towards your presentation without having an innate gender. Getting rid of that dysphoria doesn't suppose that you've better aligned yourself with an innate identity, just that your previous way of being caused you dysphoria.

[@bryantl6768]

I think the idea applies more for the fact that there exists trans people who don't have dysphoria associated with their body.

[@standardworkaround]

@@bryantl6768 Destiny was suggesting that because people suffer because they can't affirm there identity through their physicality or presentation that people have an innate gender. But my point is that I don't think we can conclude that this isn't just a reaction against a perceived identity, as opposed to something driven by a want to affirm one's innate identity.

[@standardworkaround]

@@bryantl6768 I'm also not sure how not having dysphoria and being trans means that people have innate gender identities.

[@dannyazzawi]

Why would the dysphoria exist in the first place if there is no such thing as an innate gender or at least an innate mode of being? Unless you believe that these things are socially constructed, in which case you’d still be wrong as destiny pointed out in the video A trans male will claim that they have always been a man and that this is an immutable part of who they are. So there seems to be some grounds for gender being innate. There is in fact a study showing more similarities in brain structure between a trans male and a male than a trans male and a female.

[@rationalbimbo8811]

ugh i really wish i could talk to destiny about gender abolition and trans people, i think he's really smart and when he asks ppl these questions i never really feel like he gets good answers from his guests. one day

[@Old_School_293]

“I don’t really define myself as anything” says the guy with a well-groomed, but rakish, beard. I don’t think any guy goes around all thinking “I’m a guy” or “I’m a male” all day. Who actively thinks of their gender? It’s just there. Another example of Millenial/Zoomer navel-gazing.

[@flambasticflontier5384]

navel? like, "belly button" navel? does gen-z really have a problem with belly button gazing?

[@Old_School_293]

@@flambasticflontier5384 Navel-gazing: (noun) self-indulgent or excessive contemplation of oneself or a single issue, at the expense of a wider view..

[@standardworkaround]

Non-defining doesn't suppose a total lack of genderable behaviour.

[@KingstonHawke]

It's not your identity if it's subconscious. Words do have meanings.

[@Old_School_293]

@@standardworkaround wow, just wow. This kind of extreme navel-gazing is why socialists should never be given power (as well as Millenials and Zoomers). We’re headed into a time of hyperinflation, probable recession, and possible depression and this is what you’re focused on? Our rights are being stripped from us by those who have taken an oath to protect them based on the canards that the Delta variant will kill us all and that it’s “Republicans” who completely responsible are resisting vaccination and spreading misinformation. And this is what you want to spend your time and energy on. Wow.

[@matsab7930]

19:50 - i think this is a flaw in rem's understanding of paedophilia conversion therapy (not sure if this is the correct terminology). I don't believe it removes your urges, it just puts you in a much better position to control them and not act upon them.

[@SimiuSt]

Way too wholesome. I thought Destiny hated socialists!

[@dt_msys454]

he hates dumb people. the current trendy twitter socialism is really stupid, but it *is* possible to be a socialist and not be a dipshit. it's just very, very rare.

[@BlakeZeb]

@@dt_msys454 True! I’ve considered myself a socialist for awhile, and agree with Destiny that most socialists online are dipshits with half baked criticisms, half baked solutions, and they spout them very confidently. I hate most lefty circles online. PP gives me hope. Lol

[@PannulaLoL]

Usually I have no fucking clue what Perspective Philosophy is talking about, but with Rem and Destiny here to translate, he was actually really interesting and made good points.

[@crushinnihilism]

I always find these gender conversations suspect. They always seem really confused about categories like Male and Female. Yet, if we put a bunch of men and women in a room they clearly wouldnt be confused on which people belonged to those categories. Rem, if he was really consistent, would have to say, "i dont know what it means to be a man or a woman do i cant tell which is which." Amd i just dont think he'd he would respond as such.

[@jamesbarnett6772]

@Lydia Yawn

[@NathanExploshin]

I don’t think most people think social construct are worthless, it’s that understanding gender is a social construct means that it’s not a rigid rule of biology or nature. It’s something that we made up so it’s something that can be changed through our more understanding on the subject

[@DSPHistoricalSociety]

Damn Rem just never stops flapping his gums

[@RealmRabbit]

20:42 I wonder if Destiny would be in favor of like, messing with a child's genetics to make them feel less sadness/negativity... Or like, what would Destiny's thought be on designer babies? Like, would Destiny want to genetically alter his child to maximize the child's ability to grow into the body type that is seen as 'beautiful' by most modern people's standards of beauty because the child would probably have an easier life that way? What about maximizing any genes that maybe could correlate to having a high intelligence?