Detail Diatribe: Rogue One's Doomed Heroes (And The Complication Of Star Wars)

A long time ago, in a writer's room far, far away…
Join us as we gush about Rogue One and Andor, and how they manage to be the best installments of Star Wars in a way that somehow makes the originals feel BETTER, rather than worse by comparison!
TIMESTAMPS:
0:00:00-0:11:07 - A Long Time Ago In A Galaxy Far, Far Away…
0:11:07-0:16:13 - Hey Kid, It Ain't That Kind Of Movie
0:16:13-0:29:15 - We Do Not Grant You The Rank Of Masterpiece
0:29:15-0:40:23 - Congratulations! Your Franchise Is Being Rescued
0:40:23-0:45:00 - It's A Hard Knock Life
0:45:00-0:50:56 - Rebellions Are Built On A New Hope
0:50:56-1:05:22 - Let's Get Attached To A Dead Guy
1:05:22-1:08:17 - Use The Foregone Conclusion
1:08:17-1:25:48 - The Banality Of Evil Space Wizards
1:25:48-1:28:09 - Technological Terror
1:28:09-1:30:34 - Directed By George Lucas
Our content is intended for teenage audiences and up.
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[@ninostekar5183]

For the trash compactor bit, Mark Hamill actually said that he thought that they should be all dirty, but Harrison Ford just told him "listen kid, it ain't that kinda movie"

[@templarw20]

Contrast the Rogue One directors putting together a whole 'nother ending because they thought the "everyone dies" ending wouldn't fly, only for Kennedy to say "well, of course you have to kill them all."

[@greenhydra10]

That's basically Luke and Han's entire dynamic.

[@KingsBard]

"If they're looking at your hair we're all in trouble"

[@scottjs5207]

@@templarw20 Wait... Kennedy did something... right? That's actually shocking.

[@bgphantom3]

​@scottjs5207 It's amazing how often that happens yet certain people are always surprised. 😂

[@gabrielr7511]

Vader is SOOO dramatic. At the start of the hallway scene his chest lights are off. Thats his breathing apparatus.The Dude is holding his breath just for advantage on his intimidation check

[@tumbledryshoes]

Vader is the kind of TT gamer who can turn min maxing into an incredible story moment.

[@Rubymagicalgirl88]

Being real, if a player did that, it would be an advantage on initiative as well.

[@greenhydra10]

He's terrifying and he knows it.

[@carcram]

I mean he IS anakin under that helmet, he doesn't love drama he IS drama, i bet my guy is always making his cape flow with the force just for dramatic effect

[@nguyenten6877]

When the Tantive IV disconnected from the cruiser and flew away, Vader's cape looked like it was billowing in the wind. He's in the vacuum of space. That mf was using the force to do that when literally no one except his stormtroopers were watching him.

[@brandonfaddis7443]

49:40 "Luke, do you live on a death world? Is that why you're like this?" Holy crap, I just realized Tatooine is Star Wars Australia

[@CrimsonBlasphemy]

It's George Lucas' Dune. Dune books '65, Star War in '77 .

[@brandonfaddis7443]

@@CrimsonBlasphemy Fair

[@ecchikitty1395]

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy." "Dude, that's my local bar."

[@sofig1237]

Well earth doesn't seem to be around anymore, someone had to take their place

[@user-ew9sq5iw5w]

You wanna know the perfect quote to go along with the whole "rebellions are built on hope" thing? "There's so many good stories where some brave hero has to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors cheer, and everyone lives happily ever after. But the hero never gets to see the ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith." "Ain’t that a bitch.”

[@tylerstevens4267]

Red vs Blue!

[@phastinemoon]

“Let there be hope - a grim thin hope, an Authurian sword at sunset…”

[@terrified057t4]

FUCK YEAH I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE THINKING OF CHURCH'S SEASON 13 ENDING SPEECH XD

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

I think it's wrong to say no one takes the prequels seriously, many people have praised different elements from them and in retrospective many argue that the main problem isn't the story but the acting, which is a whole different issue. In fact nowadays you will find many people that analyze and praise how the prequels tackle topics like the balance of the force, the dark side, political corruption, the rise of dictatorships, the sith and the danger of demagoguery.

[@timezerohour8864]

Red Vs Blue peak.

[@carsoncasmirri3874]

I always called Rogue One the Halo Reach of Starwars. It’s a direct prequel that ends with everyone dying and a lone ship getting away but being followed to start the events of the main series

[@Molly-ps5mh]

That is a WEIRDLY good analogy now that you mention it. I never thought of that before, huh. In fairness, I like Halo Reach a LOT more than Rogue One, but I can 100% see the parallel.

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

I always think of Ga-Rei Zero's first episode, but that sounds like a better comparison ngl

[@IceLordCryo]

That's a very apt comparison. A prequel spinoff that ended up being very good!

[@Yixdy]

​@@shytendeakatamanoir9740 looks bad, and I love anime

[@davids1513]

My review to my friends after I got back from the theater was “Halo Reach: A Star Wars Story” was pretty good

[@nikhilkapoor428]

I love how my favorite Star Wars show ever came from a movie nobody asked for and focused on a character I’m pretty sure 80% of the fanbase forgot about. Fucking incredible moment.

[@nathank2289]

Guess it depends on your definition of "show". Frankly nothing Disney has done comes to the level of the OT

[@Ravus_Sapiens]

​@@nathank2289 I don't know that I agree with that. Rogue One was made under the Disney umbrella, but in my opinion it surpassed anything in any of the trilogies.

[@stonethered]

Man, I keep hearing people call Rogue One 'a movie nobody asked for', but I know so many fans from before the prequels who wanted that story.

[@kylegonewild]

@@Ravus_Sapiens Idk I feel like it fails to make me really care about these characters that are destined to die, which I get is a hard thing to do so I don't necessarily fault it for that. Visually it was decent, I can give it that with no apprehension.

[@nikhilkapoor428]

@@stonethered honestly that’s fair.

[@hughbrowne8608]

49:40 he lives on a desert planet where they have to synthesize water from the air, there are roaming bandits and scavengers, the airspace is controlled by a mafia boss and the main town is a scum pit full of smugglers and bounty hunters. He lives on a death planet and it's all he's ever known

[@terrified057t4]

Also like, he lives in a hole. That could mean anything but I always think of the days being scorching beyond the definition of scorching and the nights are friggin' cold as Hoth XD

[@lizardlegend42]

And that's without mentioning the building sized bug/plant thing that lived under sand and from the surface is a giant pit with so many teeth at the bottom. And if that wasn't enough, how about the giant dragon that *eats* that building sized bug/plant thing!

[@ouroboros_1355]

Not to mention Tatooine is a planet that “survived” glassification

[@theoleadfoot2864]

​@@ouroboros_1355Tatooine got Glassed!?

[@ChrisGrahamkedzuel]

@@ouroboros_1355when did that happen?

[@taproot0619]

Talking about Anakin being a dramatic little bitch, this is my favorite thing about the hall scene: His suit has a front panel with lights on it. Those lights are his LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS. And what is turned off in that hallway? All his suit's blinking lights. Why? Added dramatic effect. Meaning, dude thought this out and was like, "Hey, you know what would be fun? If I just shut my suit off so that I can barely breathe, then stand stock still with my light saber in hand, turned off in a pitch-black hallway until it's full of blaster fodder. Then, turn my saber on to freak everyone the fuck out before ripping them to pieces. Oh the looks on their faces will be so worth the week in the suspension tank."

[@DarthChratis]

and I can 100% believe Anakin the drame queen would do that.

[@jack_of_all_trades5907]

I can't remember if it's canon or anything but i believe that sith can draw on the negative emotions of others for strength. Maybe being a drama queen also makes him stronger by drawing on the rebel's fear

[@scotginger4690]

​@@jack_of_all_trades5907 I thought it was that they only drew on their own negative emotions, Yoda's whole "fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering" stuff? Well to be honest though drawing on others negative emotions does seem like the type of thing to be in this franchise.

[@bluesbest1]

And it was. It absolutely was. Granted, he could probably feel his objective slipping away after that scene, but from his perspective, the troubles of capturing Leia was also worth the look on those rebels' faces. If he knew how much trouble _actually_ resulted from him doing that, he'd probably reconsider, but he'd also probably still do it anyway.

[@paounn9444]

Also, he's in space. His cloak shouldn't be floating, in the clip at 43:05. He's using the Force to move it just for extra style

[@MX-oz5rx]

One of the reasons I enjoyed Rogue One was that it treated the Force with the same mystery and reverence received by the subjects of real religions. If you'd never seen any Star Wars stuff except for this, you'd be forgiven for thinking it might not even be real.

[@NotMeButAnother]

In a similar vein it is the first since New Hope that made the death star scary instead of silly.

[@SymbioteMullet]

Wait, are you saying that hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side?

[@terrified057t4]

@@SymbioteMullet I think he is, call in the boys!

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

I think it's wrong to say no one takes the prequels seriously, many people have praised different elements from them and in retrospective many argue that the main problem isn't the story but the acting, which is a whole different issue. In fact nowadays you will find many people that analyze and praise how the prequels tackle topics like the balance of the force, the dark side, political corruption, the rise of dictatorships, the sith and the danger of demagoguery.

[@ethanduncan1646]

Exactly. It doesn't pull back the curtain on the force and keeps things deliberately as an open question.

[@theworldsdumbestplansincor7403]

“He didn’t put on the suit because it was Versace” Is an amazing line, stand proud Blue.

[@HeroofMightandmagic1]

Sorry, I don't get the reference, what does he mean when he says that?

[@rickdeveraux]

@@HeroofMightandmagic1 Versace is an expensive fashion brand which (among other things) manufactures suits. Blue's basically just saying that Darth Vader didn't put on the suit because it looks nice. Only in a much more amusing way.

[@redspriteaja6362]

​@@HeroofMightandmagic1 he means that Vader didn't put the suit on because it looked pretty. I don't know if there's any reference or meaning beyond that

[@terrified057t4]

Even in a galaxy far far away, Blue returns to Italy XD

[@daniellewasdelayed8921]

@@terrified057t4 I haven't laughed at something this hard in a while. Incredible comment

[@snes90]

I went into Rogue One not knowing it was a tragedy, because "Star Wars doesn’t kill off (all) main characters." Which made the final sequence gut-wrenching and finally devastating when I finally realized they were destined to die this entire time. When Red says Rogue One makes the entirety of Star Wars better, she's spot on. The hallway sequence with Vader was especially good because now the nameless rebels aren't just cannon fodder. We just watched a group of unsung heroes with complex stories, flaws, and likable characteristics die for this cause. Who is to say every rebel Vader cut down didn't also have compelling backgrounds that brought them to this moment? And if we know the movie's protagonists were heroes, then that means we know every rebel *is* a hero too, not just a background character.

[@TheChiog]

There was a critic who worded it pretty fittingly: "Rogue One was the movie that truly felt like Star WARS. This is no adventure, it is a war movie."

[@ViruZ42]

I love the dramatic irony of whenever you look at vader and then hear Anikin and his sassiness, its when you know the person hes interacting with is in the greatest danger because you shook him out of his depression and have his undivided attention. Its like seeing dracula grin and go bad bitch in castlevania.

[@MalloonTarka]

"You must be the Belmont."

[@jordankurth8518]

Gonna be honest. You said "Eight years ago" and it hit me harder than it should have. Got Palpatine somehow returning in the back of my head wheezing, "No, no," and shooting lighting everywhere.

[@ReginaldHanzo21]

That HURTS

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

I think it's wrong to say no one takes the prequels seriously, many people have praised different elements from them and in retrospective many argue that the main problem isn't the story but the acting, which is a whole different issue. In fact nowadays you will find many people that analyze and praise how the prequels tackle topics like the balance of the force, the dark side, political corruption, the rise of dictatorships, the sith and the danger of demagoguery.

[@Jarakin]

Yeah that... that was not okay. I needed to take a moment to remember that I am old.

[@jackwriter1908]

Yeah... it's the same with _Avengers_ for me... that came out 2012. 12 years ago I sat in the cinema, barely old enugh to watch it...

[@TheShanicpower]

@@RodrigoGarcia-ze5emYeah but we don’t really take those people seriously either

[@PingMe23]

Fun fact according to Wookiepedia - Donnie Yen was given a lot of leeway to interpret his character. It was his idea to make Chirrut blind - harkening back to movies about kung-fu heroes who have some kind of limitation, like blindness. Chirrut is my favorites character in Rogue One.

[@Rick586]

Donnie Yen's a legend.

[@Maxisamo1]

Sounds like they didn't feel like writing him and just let Donnie handle it lmao

[@justinalicea1590]

It was a very good choice and only made his death walk even stronger. If he could see, the sight of the blaster fire around him could have wavered his faith in the Force. But due to his blindness, he MUST have that faith, and so he makes it across.

[@somedude15231]

Huh, that's interesting. IIRC, he also played a blind, bad-ass assassin in John Wick 4. I wonder if that's just his favorite archetype to play

[@oldcowbb]

@@somedude15231 blind badass is a stable in wuxia

[@GolemRising]

For the record: YES. Tatooine is a DEATH WORLD. It has massive predators that even the magic, tech, and intelligence of the galaxy cannot easily handle. It is rife with criminal warlords, marauding bands of alien raiders, and some of the most brutal desert terrain of any remotely habitable planet we know of. It makes perfect sense that Luke and Anakin, having grown up there, are not terribly impressed with the dangers of the rest of the galaxy.

[@loadeddice4696]

Now I think about it, you could tell Cassian or Jyn or whoever "The Death Star will be destroyed by Darth Vader's secret son, who grew up on a death world not knowing about his father, and he's an ace pilot and a crack shot" and they'd imagine, like, space-Rambo.

[@TheWickedWizardOfOz1]

When in reality he's closer to Pee-Wee Herman xD

[@user-wi8ul2lc7k]

Or they'd start looking reeeeeal suspiciously at Biggs

[@elizaripper]

Rogue One might be the only modern Star Wars movie that was universally considered well-done despite being the near-tonal opposite of the original trilogy in terms of how hopeless the heroes’ chances are. Yet it’s well-written enough to still achieve a message of hope even with every hero in Rogue One dead. 💙❤️ Edit: I did not anticipate the controversy of my statement. What have I done? What has become of us all?😧

[@matthewmuir8884]

Part of that might be from it being the only Disney Star Wars movie that actually had ideas.

[@yw9372]

It’s considered well-done now. But I still remember how divisive it was when it first came out. Regardless, looking back on it it definitely is the only SW film worth a damn post-acquisition.

[@emmaarmo379]

Almost universal. It's better than some other Star Wars media, but the plot needed some more time in the oven. There are plenty of little plot holes - for example, why did Gererra choose to stay and die when his word would've been useful dealing with the resistance? He had plenty of time to leave, and then that way the resistance wouldn't be suspicious of Jyn. Set pieces like Vader's castle (surrounded by lava?? 😂) and Eadu fell flat. For me it's a solid 6/10

[@moonblaze2713]

So, your post reminded me of two quotes, that together kind of explain what you're saying. "People speak of hope as if it is this delicate, ephemeral thing made of whispers and spider's webs. It's not. Hope has dirt on her face, blood on her knuckles, the grit of the cobblestones in her hair, and just spat out a tooth as she rises for another go." "There's all these stories where the hero has to sacrifice themselves. And the day is saved, the survivors all cheer, and the everyone loves happily ever after. But the hero never gets to see if the day is actually saved. They just have to have faith. Ain't that a bitch?" The reason it works is because it's still about hope. The belief that things can be better, and being willing to fight for that even if the odds aren't in your favor. Even up to dying to pass the chance of something better on to others. The original was a fairy tale, with hope as a main theme. Rogue One was a gurellia war story, but it has that connective tissue of being about hope. And that makes it work.

[@MalzraAirwynn]

I like rogue 1 but I feel like its praise is far from universal.

[@kingturboturtlednoc5722]

46:57 Leia is peak "do you have a fucking warrant" energy and i love it

[@TheShadowlord18]

D20 fan spotted?

[@Blueeyesthewarrior]

Queen behavior!

[@jaydenliberty9536]

“Is that a class 3 firearm?” “I dunno, are those level 4 plates?” “Aight ✋😐🤚”

[@derptomistic]

The thing that got me about the Vader hallway of pain and misery was the thought of being the guy with the files realizing he's screwed and he needs to hand the drive off through the gap in the door.

[@lepidusstupidius2956]

That part of the scene was fantastic. It was the perfect end to the sequence of "dying so someone else has a chance".

[@alanguillermo3145]

The shift from "Help us!" to "Take it!" is incredible. It's the entire rebellion in a nutshell.

[@fanboy50]

@@lepidusstupidius2956 it really is kind of the entire final act of the movie, recreated in microcosm in about 20 seconds, isn't it?

[@battyrae1398]

@@fanboy50 YES! i was thinking that! they shrunk the whole conflict down to its most basic elements and it worked so well!

[@vegladex]

I keep thinking of the thought of being the guy on the other side of that door. The fear and frustration that you can't get it open, the realisation that the guy you're trying to save is giving up on himself, and then that black sacrifice, held out against for those last few precious seconds, of having to give up on him too.

[@DetectiveLance]

Bohdi's death for me was the clincher. When K2 died, i was stabbed, but Bohdi was the knife twisting. With his death, and the destruction of the shuttle, it was a statement: "everyone is doomed". There was a little bit of hope again with Blue Squadron and the U-Wings, but no. There is no escape, there is no flying in to the sunset. Your funny pilot and the ride are gone, watch your heroes martyr themselves.

[@snes90]

I'm right there with you. Despite the deaths up to that point I had hope one of them would make it out. After the ship blew up my mind short circuited, and came back on with the thought - "Nobody's making it out of here alive."

[@thaddeusgenhelm8979]

@@snes90 I'll admit, to me it felt more like a forgone conclusion pretty early on? "Oh hey, this group has a name that's very significant to the Rebellion later. And I don't know any of these people, even from odd cameos that could relate to them. ... Guess they all die."

[@carlosciudadreal1842]

Same I looked over to my sister and cousin and we all knew. No one is getting out.

[@steelgriffin7716]

"... Shit, there goes Ex-Fil. Nice knowing you guys, die well."

[@quantumtommy7369]

It was when they passed through the shield and watched the gate close behind them that I knew that no one was leaving that planet.

[@Vincent.E.M.Thorn.Author]

The slide positing the question "Is Star Wars about Luke, or about the people he saved?" is one that more creators, and fans, need to ask. It brings Mass Effect to mind, and how after Andromeda flopped Bioware went right to ".... and Shepard is back!"

[@loadeddice4696]

That being said "Shepard is back! Because of Liara!" is an interesting whiplash into "oh no, oh she's gonna get weird about it"

[@DelinquentChibi]

To be fair, the destroy ending teased Shepard potentially surviving, so it thankfully wasn't *entirely* out of the blue. But seriously, as middle of the road as Andromeda is with all of its missed opportunities, I kinda wanted to see the story keep going. The story beats were very stereotypical, but it was still interesting enough for me to want to see just what the hell the giant space helix actually was. Though some of the characters (Cora, that "my face is tired" woman and the Salarian director) irritated me.

[@dragonbretheren]

Hmmm... After watching this Detail Diatribe, I now want to go back through every Star Wars media and Find-Replace every instance of "Force" with "Plot". "[The Plot] surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together." "Use the Plot." "May the Plot be with you." "I felt a great disturbance in the Plot." "The Plot is what gives a Jedi his power."

[@some-maggot]

It also reminds me heavily about Kreia from KotOR 2: "Nothing is impossible with ." "Take the greatest Jedi Knight, strip away , and what remains?" "Ah, but at what point does the power of exerts submerge any attempt at choice, or free will?" Finally, "I hate , I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance when countless lives are lost."

[@ElusiveMysteryMan]

"The dark side of the Plot is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."

[@FedoraKirb]

“I am one with and is with me.”

[@FedoraKirb]

@@ElusiveMysteryManSuddenly, it makes a lot of sense how Palpatine “somehow” returned.

[@ErriesPlays]

The "What if C3PO pulled his weight and was an asshole" line got me pretty good

[@masongreen1385]

Some random Star Wars thoughts that this made me have: *1. Ahsoka is a bit like discovering the Epic of Gilgamesh to lead you to your next quest objective* Every time one of Dave Filoni's shows explores the Force more (in Ahsoka, the Mortis arc, any of the Night Sisters stuff) it feels waaaay more eldritch and powerful and ancient. The Ahsoka show is Star Wars being Indiana Jones; looking through ancient artifacts and temples because they'll give you superpowers and/or help you find where your loved ones are hiding out. It feels like such a different time scale than stuff that's usually more centralized in Star Wars; they're looking through their version of Bronze Age ruins for help while everyone else is trying to do politics. *2. unpacking Blue's commentary about the Order 66 survival rate.* As far as I know, every Jedi who survived Order 66 was either A) a Jedi Master who was already away from the Temple (Obi-Wan and Yoda), B) made a deal with the Empire (Anakin, the Inquisitors), or C) an apprentice/youngling who was saved by the sacrifice of another Jedi (Grogu, Kanan Jarrus, Cal Kestis). Ahsoka is the only exception to this rule, and Anakin specifically trained her to deflect/defend herself against the clones who ended up trying to kill her. Order 66 was only escapable by either the best of the best, who immediately went into hiding, or through the sacrifice of someone else. *3. Qui-Gon's death versus Sabine's survival is a lesson on the importance of giving someone first aid ASAP* Something annoys me about that one criticism of Ahsoka where people ask how Sabine survived but Qui-Gon didn't: QUI-GON DIDN'T INSTANTLY DIE. He was choking out on the floor for a good couple minutes before he passed. When Sabine got stabbed, Ahsoka was right there basically instantly to give first aid and stabilize her within those two minutes. Obi-Wan still had to fight Maul, and by the time he did that, he was trapped in that room with a bunch of safety features that he couldn't bypass in time to get the help he needed to save Qui-Gon. In first aid, those first few minutes can be what determines someone's survival.

[@TheHorseman0fApocalypse]

stabs used to be lethal legends watch the two brothers in swtor a stab is all it took to kill him

[@blinkachu05]

The fact I was trained as a lifeguard and didn't fully realize that last point is disappointing on my part. That's first response 101.

[@anewhero1216]

Another note about 2, there were somewhere in the ballpark of 10,000 Jedi at the time of Order 66, and roughly 99% of the Jedi were killed. Statistically, a little over 100 Jedi survived the massacre assuming those numbers are accurate. We've seen a fair number of survivors (Obi-wan, Yoda, Ahsoka, Kanan, Cal, Grogu, Anakin/Vader, Baylan, the Inquisitors, and (Jedi Survivor spoiler) Bode), which account for at most barely a quarter of the potential surviving Jedi lol

[@R4yj4ck]

"He didn't put on the suit because it's Versace" feels like one of those Schrodinger's Lines that can fit any movie. Like I can hear it being said in a grimdark tale where a hero is forced to don a set of cursed armor just as well as I could hear The Mask saying it in a Looney-Toons-esque slapstick comedy.

[@dndknower]

Blue is NOT living this down one way or another

[@DracoMagnius]

And immediately my mind travels to Berserk and Guts' armor.

[@gacrazy65]

Like... the final fight in Rogue One is how I wish Vader was depicted in live action. I know why he never was, tech issues and all, but THAT is peak Vader. That slow reveal of the saber in the dark (and turning off his life support systems to flex), the brutality and certainty he fights with. That is a creature who knew they couldn't stop him and who projected an aura of doom. None of them begged, which is either very heroic, or they knew it was pointless. Darth Vader was here and ran outta mercy 18 years ago when he lost his legs. If he wasn't so fond of that Lightsaber, he would've torn them apart with his bare fucking hands. ... also, the comics triple down on his dramatic nature. "Drop your weapons! You are surrounded!" *"All I am surrounded by is Fear and DEAD MEN."* as he casually pops the the entire company's Thermal Detonators. It was 1v500 (ya know... like most Jedi during Order 66), and he butchered them all with a flick of his wrist after a badass one-liner. You know he was more proud of the one-liner.

[@beretperson]

About Kanan Jarrus: he was a padawan during order 66. Hevsurvived because of his master and the Bad Batch and yes, his master died.

[@janmelantu7490]

And there’s a very good reason why he and Ezra aren’t around during the Original Trilogy

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

I think it's wrong to say no one takes the prequels seriously, many people have praised different elements from them and in retrospective many argue that the main problem isn't the story but the acting, which is a whole different issue. In fact nowadays you will find many people that analyze and praise how the prequels tackle topics like the balance of the force, the dark side, political corruption, the rise of dictatorships, the sith and the danger of demagoguery.

[@spamhonx56]

More than that, when kanan evolves into jedi master, he dies and ezra survives. It wasn't order 66 but the empire got him in the end.

[@lembitmoislane.]

@@janmelantu7490And then the tano show ruins both Ezra and Thrawn (along with the republic and Tano). For Andor the average imperial officer is far more competent then thrawn in that disney un-canon, fan series.

[@janmelantu7490]

@@lembitmoislane. no actually I think Ahsoka is a pretty good continuation of Rebels.

[@instantimagination8163]

One of my favorite lines in all of Star Wars comes from Rogue One but almost no one talks about it. Jyn says “We’ll take the next chance. And the next. On and on until we win, or the chances are spent.” THAT is what it means to be part of the Rebellion if you are not a hero with a thousand faces. THAT is what it means for people in the real world to resist tyranny and injustice. Because there is no magical farm boy and his friends coming to rescue us.

[@ryanjensen1945]

Counterpoint, if you read the life stories of people who played pivotal roles in world events, a lot of them DO read like magic farm boys. Whether you attribute it to some higher power or chalk it up to random chance, there _are_ people who the plot seems to revolve around in real life stories.

[@basharic3162]

In real life there is always a farm boy. BUT it's only seems predestined in hindsight. Because it really wasn't. It was just that the time was right for somebody to step into that role, and the one who manages to succeed is the one who gets to be retroactively predestined. It's Lief Ericsson vs Columbus, it's Marconi vs Tesla, it's Gavrilo Princip vs any his friends. Movements are tinder, heroes in real life are most often sparks, and no single spark is guaranteed to be the one that starts the fire, but one always does. Heroes in fiction are more like matches, they're tailor-made to start fires. Dune is a great example of this. Paul is a matchstick designed to start a blaze both from the writer's perspective and in universe. The point of writing about him is that he's the interesting matchstick meant to light the tinder of the Fremen. In-universe the Bene-Gesserit were trying to make a matchstick; but Paul specifically wasn't planned, and he was applied to tinder they did not expect.

[@ripfangs8375]

the bit where red talking about the prequels failed in their goal to make star wars the kind of universe where this shakespearean drama can play out has reminded me how when i studied Othello at school that it and revenge of the sith superficially have the same plot of "Respected general is mislead and manipulated by a close friend into becoming evil and kills his wife"

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

Star Wars takes so much inspiration from Sheakspeare. Like Anakin's fall has so many commonalities to MacBeth's. Granted the idea of succumbing to your ego and lesser desires for power is timeless and as old as history, but I still feel that MacBeth's story must have served as at least an inspiration for Anakin. There are ghosts in both stories too...

[@horseenthusiast1250]

​​@@Obi-Wan_Kenobioh hey Master Obi-Wan :D

[@lindseyether3850]

Also the fact that Ewan McGregor has been in both

[@Respectable_Username]

This is absolutely cursed. I must now also inflict this curse upon my friends 😂

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

​@@horseenthusiast1250Hello There!

[@samminden1058]

19:47 I think another thing that can make the prequels somewhat difficult narratively is that Lucas is also trying to tell the political drama of how the Republic became the Empire and the way in which democracies turn to fascism while at the same time trying to tell the more personal story of Anakin's fall to the dark side. So I think for a number of people, it can make the prequels feel off tonally because it is trying to be both a personal tragedy and a political tragedy.

[@silverharloe]

a good writer could have done that, especially by making the stories more parallel - hinting and foreshadowing each other - and less "here's 2 unrelated stories intercut with each other"

[@fanboy50]

@@silverharloe I think even for a better writer, weaving the two together to make both feel organic and necessary would have been a tall order. Not impossible, but difficult. But no, George's limitations as a writer definitely did not help, and with the knowledge that Lucas was never going to relinquish that much control to anyone else on it, it would have been better for him to focus on one or the other, or not limit himself to a trilogy and allow himself to do, like, four movies, or condense the time frame they happen over (in the big scheme of things, TPM really didn't need to take place a full decade before AotC or RotS).

[@gratuitouslurking8610]

The good ol 'there's too much politics in this movie' def plagued Phantom Menace a bit at the time, I can say that for sure. Which probably didn't help matter with the other two, but it's not wrong how the movie is essentially trying to hold onto those two stories at once all the way through.

[@rorythomas9469]

Possibly more problematically, he’s trying to do this in what is mostly a toy commercial for eight year olds.

[@traxathon4464]

"Saw Gerrera used to say one fighter with a sharp stick and nothing left to lose can take the day. They've no idea we're coming, they have no reason to expect us. If we can make it to the ground we'll take the next chance. And the next. An on, and on until we've won, or the chances are spent." How many chances were taken by how many people before Luke was able to get in an X-Wing and take the most impossible chance of all?

[@armandoguzmannieves5472]

There is actually a line in Revenge of the Sith with the express purpose of making sure there can be many surviving Jedi. It’s when Yoda & Obi-wan Storm the Temple. It’s when they talk about how they sent a warning from the temples database. That line lets you think about Jedi that are out there in hiding. Nothings been defanged. When your setting is an entire Galaxy, it would honestly be less believable to only have 2 Jedi left alive.

[@anewhero1216]

I remember hearing numbers along the lines of there having been around 10,000 Jedi when Order 66 hit, and 99% of them died in the course of Order 66 - if those numbers are accurate, 100 or more Jedi were likely to have survived. In media we've seen so far after Revenge of the Sith, we have seen at most like 20-35 survivors, as well as Maul and Ventress, who all survived despite being targets of Order 66. With how big the galaxy is and how few Jedi there were, we've seen a perfectly reasonable amount of surviving Jedi lol

[@dragonbretheren]

Thank you for opening with the rant about episode 4's actual lack of lightsabers. I see everyone nowadays griping about how bad lightsaber choreography are in the prequel and sequel trilogies compared to the OG trilogy, which to me always makes me think "You mean like the very first lightsaber duel we ever see where two old men gently prod each other with the tips? THAT's what you're holding up as the pinnacle of lightsaber choreography?"

[@gratuitouslurking8610]

Anyone who said Duel of the Fate's choreography is bad compared to the original trilogy is just a salty mfer.

[@GeraldJSmith]

Well, Vader v Obi-wan is certainly the most *realistic* swordfight of them all. If you've ever done kendo or HEMA, there are a *lot* of fights that consist of slowly closing the distance and feeling out your opponent's reflexes before a quick exchange determines the outcome. It doesn't make for a very exciting fight, but it is reasonably true to life.

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

I've literally never heard someone call the lightsaber choreography of the prequels bad.

[@paperboy1116]

@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi It's bad. Lots of useless movement and spinning the sabers where there's no target. Ever see that gif of Anakin and Obi wan spinning in front of each other for a solid second?

[@christopherfleetwood5252]

Vader vs Old Ben = Give ‘em the tip! 😂

[@explodingapplestudios5805]

I remember seeing Rouge One opening night with my cousin and his friend. The theater was pretty calm, we would laugh at jokes (mostly K2), the audience was clearly sad when the main characters died. But when Vader showed up in that hallway, everyone lost their minds. People were hollering, cheering him on, it was amazing.

[@terrified057t4]

We were an entire high school on movie day and every seat was taken and we were audibly reacting to everything. Still my fondest memory of high school how everyone cheered seeing the Rebellion show up in Scarif's orbit XD

[@horseenthusiast1250]

I saw that in the theater with my family, and I'm not the biggest Star Wars fan (grew up on the original trilogy, prequels, and Clone Wars show, but I only really got invested in Clone Wars. The other movies were more "Oh cool costume design" kinda experiences for me, and I thought maybe I just didn't like sci-fi until I got into Star Trek years later). So I figured Rogue One would be a fun thing to munch some popcorn to, crack jokes with my brother about, and analyse the costume and set design of, like most other Star Wars movies. While I did not care for the protagonist (she had an interesting backstory, it's just that her general apathy really wore me down for most of the movie in a way that unfortunately made me less invested in her character), by the time we got to that relay race of death, I was on the edge of my seat. And then Vader arrived. I'm glad I saw that movie in the theater, because the Doylist thrill and Watsonian TERROR of having DARTH F*CKING VADER loom larger than life over you, and then turn on that red lightsaber, and be powerless to help as rebels are hewn down mercilessly and that one poor guy is just screaming "LAUNCH!!!" ...DUDE. THAT WAS DELICIOUS

[@grassygnoll3345]

The whole crowd cheered when the Y-Wing came out of Hyperspace and joined the battle over Scarrif. It felt like Star Wars had come home.

[@mattd5857]

@@grassygnoll3345 I was 27 when I saw Rogue One in the theater and I had been enjoying the film a fair bit but when the rebel fleet came out of hyperspace and all the pilots started running through their call signs, man I was transported 20 years in the past to when I was wearing out my VHS copies of the original films non stop. It was incredible.

[@valdonchev7296]

This detail diatribe reminds me of a poem from 1946, written from the perspective of a soldier who died in 1942, when the war was just starting to turn. In particular, there's this stanza that captures the weird meta-perspective on Rouge One as a prequel. "Of what’s now common knowledge And quite obvious to you. We must hope all that happened Was our dreams coming true."

[@verselesscooking9416]

Need to know what poem this is,

[@valdonchev7296]

@@verselesscooking9416 "Я Убит Подо Ржевом", translated as "I was killed outside Rzhev"

[@SirAsdf]

26:09 Yeah, It's weird re-watching Episode 4 and seeing an entire populated planet get blasted into dust, and like 10 minutes later Leia, the princess of that planet, is tossing quips and being snide and totally not acting like someone who just saw everyone they've ever known be atomized.

[@rickdeveraux]

About a month before she died, Carrie Fisher was on the Late Show with Stephen Colbert and this gets mentioned. She has to comfort Luke, while she is the one who lost "my mother, my step-father - as I found out later -, my record collection, all my clothes, so I had to wear that white dress all the time..."

[@CarRadio572]

Some people call her princess for the rest of her life. That’s pretty messed up when she lost her homeland and her people there was nothing left to be princess of. Maybe a lot of her people were part of the rebellion and off-world at the time but being a rebel isn’t great for your health or longevity.

[@kirstenpaff8946]

Realistically, this is because Lucas didn't really know how to write a character arc for Leia and cared much more about Luke's feelings than Leia's, but it does say a lot about Leia's character. She is completely and utterly dedicated to the Rebellion. She isn't in it to save/avenge a loved one or any other truly personal reason. Even when she finds out she is the daughter of the guy who tortured her and murdered so many of her friends and family, she doesn't so much as blink, because the cause is so much greater than her.

[@DracoMagnius]

@@kirstenpaff8946 I also think it's in a small part because she's a Skywalker. She's got snark, drama and action in her blood. She gets it from her father, but the being cool and collected in a crisis, being dedicated to a cause with all her soul that comes from her mother and her upbringing as a princess and in the rebellion.

[@The_Nocturnal_Raven]

Some people react differently to tragedy. Some get quiet and mad, while some tear up with Niagara Falls. Leia just put her feelings aside for what needed to be done, and vents using quips. Maybe she's stoic enough to do that. Pain isn't expressed the same way for all people.

[@Greyinkling276]

The trick to drawing detail in art isn't to draw all the detail it's to draw extra detail in the right places to imply the detail you didn't draw in others. The thing Rogue One and Andor do by focusing in on smaller people is it draws detail in key places that then imply the same detail elsewhere.

[@NemisCassander]

A very small extra point about how Rogue One enhances the original trilogy: Vader force chokes Krennick in Rogue One when Krennick starts talking about how great an achievement the Death Star is. Vader force chokes the Imperial Officer in EpIV when he essentially parrots the same line, and then goes on to disparage the force. It's a reverse-continuity nod that nonetheless works.

[@dawnknightx]

I think one of the funniest things for Star Wars to remember about Vader is he's not the Death Star's biggest fan.

[@marcoa6319]

Fun Fact: In the Star Wars 2015 comic run in Marvel comics, Luke went to Jedha post-Rogue One and learned of their sacrifices. Later on, Luke was inspired to name himself and other pilots as Rouge Squadron as tribute.

[@ysabellarivera8166]

someone pls pin this bc this still makes me ill in the greatest way possible, angst for DAYSSS

[@KarnodAldhorn]

Growing up a Star Wars Fan, meaning Star Wars was basically my alternate universe, I felt it made a lot of sense and was very cool, when there were people still living after Order 66. It made it feel like: "The Galaxy is so vast that even the Empire can't be 100% thorough. It's like tidying up. There's always some dust left somewhere you didn't look.

[@cressrose]

First and foremost, absolutely. Like, from a literal perspective (like, scientific stuff abt our own galaxy's size) and a story perspective, it makes a ton of sense that Order 66 didn't take care of ALL the Jedi/their allies. Space is a MASSIVE place, even with FTL travel or hyperspace travel, and you can only do so much. Secondly, "There's always some dust left somewhere you didn't look." felt incredibly profound to me for some reason, and I will definitely try to add it into my vernacular now.

[@FuzzyStripetail]

After Red struck Blue down with her seldom used lightsaber, Blue became a glowing, old blue ghost and perpetually knowingly smirked at Red for the rest of her life.

[@davidminken4094]

The "For Jedha!" battle cry as the rebels jump off their drop ship is a great touch... gets me every time. It's a great little detail, telling me that they are here for a fight... and they all probably know it's a one-way ticket, but they're gonna get some.

[@lokiorin5520]

1:06:29 - Something that just occurred to me thinking back on Return of the Jedi: None of what Luke did with Vader mattered to the Rebellion beyond being a distraction. Converting Vader and chucking the Emperor down a shaft did not destroy the Death Star. Wedge, Lando, and a bunch of other Rebellion Pilots did Trench Run 2.0 and blew Death Star 2 up. The Executor was killed by an A-Wing pilot who got hit, and rather than punching out rammed his A-Wing into the Bridge killing control of the ship. The Rebellion wasn't started by a Chosen One, it was started by regular people who had been pushed passed the breaking point and put it all on the line in the hope that they could change it. It wasn't ended by a Chosen One either. It was ended by regular people who were pushed to the breaking point and carried that hope across the finish line.

[@PjotrV1971]

I'm reading that differently. The moment Luke is brought before the emperor is the moment everything else becomes literally and figuratively the background. But there, in that room; Luke, Vader, and Palpatine will decide the fate of the galaxy between them. The second Death Star's destruction or survival in that moment no longer matters. As Vader put it: "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force." The three of them know this. The empire, and thus the need for a rebellion, ended with the destruction of Palpatine and Vader's return to the light. I don't mean to imply your perspective isn't valid, but I don't think I'm going to be easily swayed from mine.

[@jamesverhoff1899]

I hadn't thought if this before, but Rogue One sort of gives the Trench Assault Run more depth as well. When you watch "A New Hope" it's a pretty normal fighter battle--ships blow up, the hero wins, everyone cheers. But when you add Rogue One to it, it becomes a continuation of that handing off of the baton. Leia gets it and hands it off to the general. He gives GOLD Squadron the task of taking the kill shot--Red Squadron (Luke's unit) was supposed to cover them. Gold Squadron gets vaped. Then most of Red Squadron does. They are down to the very last fighter pilot there--Luke, the Chosen One, who finally takes the shot that the previous two movies have been building up to. It wasn't until Wedge Antilles gets hit that Luke had the baton; as soon as that happens Han shows up to shoot off the TIE fighters on Luke's tail (including Han's future father-in-law), Luke accepts his mentor's advice, and he wins. Instead of shouting "Run!!" Han is basically saying "Kill!" To be clear: At least 22 people died in the Trench Assault Run, including multiple by Vader's hand. This is the hallway in Rogue One all over again, but this time with the plot armor. The two mirror each other fantastically, and Rogue One adds tremendous depth to the scene.

[@TheLordofMetroids]

It's also a nice statement about the Rebellion as a whole. They attacked a death machine with 2 fighter squadrons? Why just two? Because that's all they have left. The Crawl states the battle of Scarif was a Rebel victory, and it was, but it cost them almost everything to get it. The rest of the Rebellions forces were either destroyed or damaged to the point that they needed massive repairs, and were not combat worthy for the literal end of the world.

[@Okada_Caelun]

I want to say, I think the most important moment in Star Wars, the literal defining moment and character of the franchise... is Darth Maul and the fight against him. Before Phantom Menace, Star Wars was the story and setting of the Empire vs the Rebel Alliance. You can see this in secondary media at the time, such as games like X-Wing/Tie Fighter, Dark Forces 1, and Rebel Assault 1/2. In many of these early games it's all blasters and Stormtroopers. Phantom Menace, by virtue of being set before the Empire was a thing, separated the identity of the franchise from the geopolitical setting. Then, the amazing spectacle of the lightsaber fight, and of Maul having a non-standard lightsaber, combined with Jedi/The Force being the only thematic element connecting prequel and sequel... This single moment became the identity of the franchise. The Force, Jedi vs Sith. That was what Star Wars was all about. Notice how in secondary media since, it's pretty much guaranteed that your protagonist has a lightsaber and will at some point fight someone with a red lightsaber. (Even though "The Rule of Two" should make red lightsabers impossibly uncommon.) Mandalorian, Rogue One, and Andor are exceptions, and to me at least feel like deliberate attempts to explore the setting in a new light after about 20 years of "If Star Wars, then Lightsaber."

[@cobalt2672]

Equally interesting is that very small 'phantom menace' era before things really codified into 'the clone wars' and 'the galactic civil war'. The fact that some games just had gungans vs droids as their 'prequel' representation seems completely silly now, of course...

[@hallepelley2422]

Was anyone else listening to the convo about the force having a will and hear Kriea : "I hate the force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some sort of balance when countless lives are lost. " Dears OSP if you want to see a proper Shakespearean SW done right, Kotor 2 is what that looks like.

[@jonasquinn7977]

To Red’s point about the Aldhani arc another thing that’s mentioned, I believe by the head of the facility, is that not only have they made it harder for people to get to the sacred valley they’ve also set up various locations from which you can view the Eye without making the journey. They are simultaneously making it more difficult to actively participate in this sacred festival and making it easier to feel like you’re not missing out in doing so. In the process reducing what is supposed to be an extremely important cultural and religious event into what is basically a tourist trap.

[@thomaswampler6209]

"Luke, do you live on a Death World?" is my new favorite take on Tatooine. Catachan, meet me outside the local Denny's.

[@CasualFox12495]

Rogue One hits extra different after Andor

[@flaviacaribe4993]

I left this movie SOBBING and honestly I'm still not sure why. Had to see Darth Vader choke a guy through blurry vision. Why was I sad when everyone died in the movie about how everybody dies

[@loadeddice4696]

The same reason so many people went to see Titanic - it's the journey, not the destination.

[@QilleWolf]

I remember seeing the movie shortly after Carrie Fisher died, so seeing Leia broke me completely and I had to sit until the end of the credits to stop crying

[@gabrielr7511]

Bothans died in the lead up to Return of the Jedi. They got the plans for the Death Star-2.

[@Keenath]

Death Star 2: Electric Boogaloo

[@LuchaLLibro]

23:24 Immediately launched into a Palpatine impression sneering "This cloak should sufficiently disguise my appearance and intentions from all I do business with, save for my *immediately identifiable chin*" and have been cackling (both as Palpatine and just cuz it's funny) for the last 10 minutes

[@the-dragon-invasion-is-near]

"I love context" *looks at the first third of the super sayan detail diatribe* you sure do!

[@galenwilds3273]

*looks at the first three quarters of the castlevania detail diatribe* yeah, I'd say

[@wyatty8simmons194]

Red+ Blue+ Slideshow= Just a good ol’ time!

[@KevinQuinn81]

I was 18 when Episode I came out. I didn't know that the the Emperor and Senator Palpatine were played by the same actor but I did already know that the emperor's name was Palpatine (I can't remember precisely why; maybe the Expanded Universe material; but I did know) so as soon as they said his name, I knew what was happening. And then by the time they name him Chancellor and he tells Anakin that he'll have to keep an eye on him, I immediately did some heavy DiCaprio pointing.

[@helenafarkas4534]

I was maybe 11. .5 seconds after I first saw Sideous, I knew he was the Emperor. I mean, it was the exact same costume and the exact same voice. then *senator* Palpatine (who I knew also from EU sources) was introduced and I'm like, "well". not only that but when Yoda and Windu are talking about the mysterious sith master during the funeral, the camera focuses on Palpatine, and the Naboo Victory March was the throne room theme from ROTJ in a major key. so the clues WERE there for people to pick up on. but contrast that with my dad, who despite being a MASSIVE fan, who watched the OT over and over, didn't pick up on it even AFTER ROTS. I had to flat out *TELL* him the Emperor was Darth Sideous *YEARS* later. I still don't know how he was ignorant for so long. it's likely the single most obvious bit of foreshadowing in the history of cinema, with every possible trick in the book used to hang a lampshade on it

[@IdToaster]

I wanna say one of the OG trilogy had the emperor listed in the credit roll as 'Emperor Palpatine', because I had the same reaction.

[@joew1237]

"Don't choke on your aspirations, Director." Says Darth Vader, after force choking Krenek

[@DracoMagnius]

He's still Anakin in there. I believe I thought that exact line in the theater watching that scene.

[@93techie]

Regarding Palpatine being the emperor being a twist. I very specifically remember being a child and getting Phantom Menace stuff as part of a happy meal or something and there was a little piece of paper showing characters and how they related to characters in the OT. It showed Luke and Leia as Anakin’s children, it showed little linkages between Ewan McGregor and Alec Guinness, Anakin and Vader, etc. Then it showed that same link between Senator Palpatine and the Emperor and my little mind exploded. So based on that and the fact that Ian played the character in both Jedi and Phantom Menace, I don’t think it was meant to be a twist to anyone but my six year old self.

[@Talyrion]

I think - and it might be my memory playing tricks on me - that if you were familiar with Star Wars extended materials, it was already known that the the Emperor was "Emperor Palpatine", making his appearance in Episode 1 obvious. But if you were film-only, this could have been a twist, yes.

[@peterlloyd9851]

@@Talyrionyeah, it was pretty out there, but the Lucasfilm marketing machine was desperately going ‘oh they might not be the same character, they’re in completely different scenes’ for the whole 6 years of the PT

[@rickdeveraux]

I knew the Palpatine in the movie was going to be the Emperor because I played the 1998 game "Star Wars: Rebellion" a lot, and the Emperor is named as such. Maybe I read the name in some of the Expanded Universe novels too, I don't remember. I don't know when the Emperor was first named Palpatine, but was definitely some time before Episode 1.

[@GymQuirk]

“Emperor Palpatine” goes all the way back to Alan Dean Foster’s novelization. [Digs out 48-year old paperback.] Halfway down the first page in the prologue: “[…] the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. […] “Once secure in his office, he declared himself emperor […]

[@KingsBard]

K-2SO's death always makes me cry. Kanan Jarrus survived because 1: Depa died defending him like Jaro, and 2: the clones that pursued him were Clone Force 99 aka the Bad Batch who's mutations stopped their chips from fully activating (minus Crosshair) and they let him go. Also Krennic calling the Death Star his achievement is even more laughable when you remember it was mostly designed by the Geonosians, half planned by Galen, and overseen directly by Vader and Palpatine, like, you might've contributed but this is NOT your baby.

[@michaelstubbs6642]

That context for the Kenobi show just opened my eyes for me. " 3.5 not 4-.5 for tone" is a perfect description

[@user-kz6in8qk2h]

38:13 52:58 “I can’t stop this, but I can give the next person a chance.” I can’t stop you, but she can. I can’t carry the Ring, but I can carry you.

[@Jane_8319]

Kanan Jarrus aka Caleb Dume survived Order 66 first in a comic which was retconned by the Bad Batch. In the Bad Batch he is saved as a padawan (his master dies) by the Bad Batch who are mutated clones and thus (mostly) resisted the inhibitor chip. Ezra Bridger, Kanan’s padawan, is some street urchin who was born when the empire was new so the jedi weren’t there to train him. Kanan stumbles upon Ezra and attempts to train him with his own limited knowledge of the force, and the two have to deal with a lot of inquisitors. Spoilers for Rebels: Kanan goes through the wringer in that show, doubting his abilities, getting blinded by Maul (long story), and then DYING trying to save his rebel cell so they cell liberate the planet of Lothal. So Kanan was just some Padawn who escaped and then died passing the baton. And then at the very end Ezra saves Lothal by using space whales to teleport Thrawn away (apparently to Peridea), disappearing before he can help the rogues or help Luke. He disappeared to pass the baton. The only Jedi survivor running around that makes no sense is fucking Ahsoka because she apparently hung out on Malachor for fifteen damn years!

[@TFalconwing]

Not quite. Ahsoka works with the Rebels during the early days of the Rebellion and "died" only a few years before ANH. She's only unaccounted for during the actual years of the OT and shows back up in the timeline post-Endor. We're actually not entirely sure what happened to her after the World Between Worlds.

[@adamwentworth8308]

I love that the prison colors are the rebellion colors, it makes so much sense and I totally missed it. Its wild that like two days after Rogue One, the Death Star is destroyed. By Empire, Luke is in or maybe starts Rogue Squadron on Hoth. That makes Rogue One explain a second noodle incident.

[@lucasimieli3727]

Wait… lightsaber? I thought Luke’s father gift for his son was a good pair of Cerveza Cristal. Has the internet been lying to me?

[@crazydinosaur8945]

ummmmm. no, the internet aka me, would never lie to you.

[@fissionist2158]

The Cerveza Cristal is a medium to see and use the Force. Drink from the proffered liquid, and you will unlock talents that alter the mind, perception, and many more.

[@Steelwolf171]

"Six feet...wait. Luke did you grow up on a death world? Is that why you're like this?" Really got me. Well done and great analysis!

[@theanimeunderworld8338]

I think we can all agree nowadays, "complicated" for Star Wars is an understatement

[@theforcedmemefilthypapist2892]

Why does it feel like SW productions these days are made by MBAs and not creative tyoes

[@starmaker75]

​@@theforcedmemefilthypapist2892 well the old expand universe definitely has it problems, it did had more creative and feel like wanted to explore stuff like universe and the force rather what Disney doing most of the time

[@nathank2289]

Nah. "Complicated" and "unbelievably stupid" are polar opposite

[@anonymousname5860]

The fandom menace complicated things.

[@JennyBlaze253]

@@anonymousname5860 Okay, "Fandom Menace" is such a fitting name for the toxic parts of the fandom. I'm keeping that.

[@magpiezealot]

this truly was our detail diatribe

[@of5606]

nah i'd dialogue

[@commonviewer2488]

Every rebel that struggles and dies does so knowing that they're not the hero, but with the hope that they're the domino that falls to push the next one forward towards the eventual empire's collapse.

[@GabrielSyler33]

Shoutout to anyone who figured out that Palpatine was gonna become the Emperor when they first watched the prequels as they came out. I was 4, 7, and 10 when those films were released, and it legitimately took me until Revenge of the Sith to figure it out. I did get suspicious vibes off of him, but my stupid kid brain didn’t figure it out.

[@sunbob3173]

Actually the novelization of SW4 written by GL mentions Palpatine by name in the 1st chapter. The Mustafar duel was also set in GL's mind this early 🪐🛸.

[@connorgrynol9021]

I thought it was obvious. I was born in 2000, so I don't believe I watched those movies in theatres but I always remember thinking it was kind of obvious. However, it's entirely possible I got spoiled by a classmate.

[@ranthalling]

@@sunbob3173 I came to the comments section to point this out. Thank you.

[@thirdcoinedge]

@@connorgrynol9021 Yeah, like I already knew the Emperor was named Palpatine in the original films because of pop culture osmosis, so when the first film had that dramatic pan over to Palpatine when Windu says, "But which did we kill, the master or the apprentice?" I was like "OOOOHHHHH, you guys are gonna get ~tricked~!" Besides, both Sidious and Palpatine are played by Ian McDiarmid, which should've been an obvious clue from the get-go, but hey, I guess not everyone watched the credits.

[@Quaz944]

Its so nice to hear and talk about what good is in Star Wars conaidering the Fanbase only ever screams about the "negative" aspects.

[@gabrielr7511]

Jabba the Human was cut from the theatrical release, but the scene was edited to make him a Hutt and put into the special editions

[@mjbull5156]

In the Marvel comics that came out with the original movie, Jabba was an alien who kind of had a camel's head with that scene.

[@donsample1002]

They filmed the scene with a human stand in so Harrison Ford would have someone to interact with, planning to replace the human Jabba with a stop motion alien, but time, budget, and the FX tech of the day didn’t let them do that, so they added the Greedo scene to give all the same exposition. Then the special edition put the now redundant Jabba scene back in, with a crappy CGI Jabba, and they ruined the best thing about the Greedo scene. (There was no first or second shot. Han just blasted him.)

[@AzhreiVep]

@@donsample1002 Amen. Han didn't shoot first. Han shot only.

[@rdbeef5645]

When Rogue One first came out the first thing I thought of was how the movie felt like a D&D/Star Wars RPG game. All the characters were playing archetypes from the Star Wars manual, K-2SO was the GM's NPC who would sarcastically comment on the player's dumb plans, and Chirrut was the player that really wanted to play a Jedi but since the GM wouldn't let him, he found an obscure 3rd party force-monk class that's not technically a Jedi but gave him some of the cool powers. So basically it reminded me of the Darths and Droids webcomic.

[@josephperez2004]

The line Red says about 'it had to be Luke...or maybe Leia', reminds me about Steven Universe and the common conplaint that the protagonist talks his way to peace. It only works because it's Steven. Because the leadership of the Homeworld Gems are willing to give him the leeway to speak at all because of who he is in relationship to them. No one else would have been given the chance to begin with even if they were ten times as convincing as Steven was. None of that matters, just the fact that they consider Steven one of them and so his opinion holds some intrinsic value to them.

[@johnb8265]

Hard day. Red's "Hope" monologue was inspiring. I snapped out of it once she went "So uhhhh yeah!"

[@NicolaeHolley]

Your wrap-up about how wide looks add more context and meaning to the narrow focus just made me think about how badly Revenge of the Sith flubbed the execution of Order 66 specifically. They played the sad music and showed the jedi dying in slow-motion, but we didn't know or care about most of those jedi. But then, if you watch The Clone Wars animated series and The Bad Batch, especially the final "we're back, baby" season of The Clone Wars, you not only get to know many, many more of the jedi who later die in Order 66, but you get to SEE more of Order 66. I think the biggest tragedy of the prequels was the fact that Ahsoka wasn't in them, because Ahsoka having the Clones who just painted their helmets with her face markings out of love for her TRY TO KILL HER really sold the tragedy that Order 66 was always meant to be.

[@thirdcoinedge]

And before that, we had Jedi: Fallen Order, which had an entire flashback level about resident sad boi Cal Kestis escaping his Venator ship filled with clones that not 5 minutes ago greeted him like a friend now trying to kill him, a 12 year-old child, & the only parental figure he has ever known. That game also had one of the best Vader scenes since Rogue One, which was essentially just showing "right, your protagonist may be a Jedi, but that's the f***ing CHOSEN ONE, your objective is to RUN", which Rebels also had a similar scene of.

[@NicolaeHolley]

@@thirdcoinedge That """boss fight""" against Vader, coming hard on the heels of beating one of the Inquisitors, is one of the best Vader showings in any media, imo.

[@fionn_mac_ribs]

That’s my main problem with RotS and prequel apologists. People only say they like that movie because of supplementary material and the movie telling the audience to feel sad. Phantom Menace is a much better movie in my opinion.

[@anewhero1216]

@@thirdcoinedge To add to the tragedy, Cal is stuck in the only escape pod to get off the Venator with the corpse of his master for who knows how long before touching down on Bracca. Survivor lets us know that that alone was traumatic to Cal, cause the next time we see Cal in an escape pod he's barely suppressing his panic lol

[@TheEverGrowingRosey-333]

It also makes you care about the clones too. 🥺

[@PhoenyxAshe]

Interesting little tidbit: Blue's premise on how the "surviving Jedi" were actually able to survive works with Kanan Jarus in Rebels - though the "reveal" of it doesn't happen until the Bad Batch.... and by the time of Episode IV, both he and his apprentice are gone.

[@anewhero1216]

Yeah, come to think of it all three of the Jedi that appear in Rebels are missing or dead by the end of the series - Kanan is dead, Ezra is launched to a seperate galaxy by the space whales, and Ahsoka is alive, but hasn't reappeared. Come to think of it, the Inquisitors are largely and unceremoniously gone after being a pretty constant presence in the first two seasons of Rebels and sporadically through the two Jedi games lol

[@lordnul1708]

Kanan's survival is actually explained in the comics, and apparently like with most of the other cases, his master died to give him a chance of escape, and he had to change his name (among other things) to hide his identity. And apparently he was an alcoholic before he met Hera. so when combined with his going blind from what sounded like a lightsaber clash way too close to his eyes (and feeling useless during the aftermath to a degree), he ends up having a few things in common with Rahm Kota from Legends, even if there's also a fair bit of contrast between them.

[@anewhero1216]

As a note, The Bad Batch also goes over Kanan's survival - his master keeps the regular clones occupied while Clone Force 99 chase after Caleb, but Order 66 didn't apply properly to the Bad Batch clones, which allows Hunter to spare Caleb. Caleb changes his name to Kanan, and the rest is history lol

[@Maldraugedhen]

It's seemed true for a long time for me that Star Wars has been at its strongest when it's not lovingly fixated on the Jedi, for a lot of the reasoning you guys get into here. This is why the Rogue Squadron books, especially the Wraith subseries, were as compelling as they were to me, and why it was difficult for me not to see ditching the EU as throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I'm glad that Disney has been finally letting people who also shared those feelings about the setting actually steer a little bit.

[@stitchesbunny8496]

"Luke, do you live on a death world? Is thay why you're like this" He's from Tatooine, so yeah. They've got Sarlaccs...

[@AuthorWorldbuilder]

I had the VHS of the Phantom Menace as a kid, and it actually said right there on the box that Palpatine was the Emperor. Something like "back when the Emperor was just a senator named Palpatine."

[@Beeblebroxologist]

"did Luke grow up on a death world?" The Force made Tatooine to test the faithful.

[@williamhamilton1154]

“How Tragic would it be, being a normal person in the StarWars universe just doing their best?” As a huge LOTR fan I ask myself the same question about that setting. If I were in Middle Earth, I’d be toiling on an infertile plot of land until a random orc rocks up lops my head off.

[@littlelostmeme]

An Andor-style spinoff of LOTR would be amazing

[@B2WM]

​@@littlelostmemeAs a Silmarillion reader who hadn't seen Rogue One in theaters, I kinda expected a LotR crossover when I first saw the title... Rings of Power could have done it, but like the prequel trilogy, the execution is... iffy

[@invaderjp1984]

My friend created and directed a campaign in the old star wars p&p rpg in early 2000 telling the basic story of rogue one. The party had to get and deliver the plans of death star and it blowed his mind when rogue one came out.

[@idkwhattoputhere853]

rebels viewer here: kanan jarrus did, in fact, survive order 66 by having his mentor sacrifice her life for him. glad to see the pattern repeating sldkjf also as someone who was a media illiterate, star wars-obsessed middle schooler during the beginning of the disney era, i'm so glad that at least one of the movies i spent so much time loving is something i can genuinely look back on and say it aged well. definitely can't say the same thing about the sequel trilogy lmao

[@user-vu4yv2yd9d]

Oh gosh, the "I can't swim" was such a Rogue One-ish gut-punch pain and horror moment

[@chaosmkmk]

Part of why I think the ending tone shift works so well, is that it carries on the theme of the movie, that these people are disposable. Most movies end when the main character succeeds and/or dies. In Rogue One, all of the characters both succeed *and* die, and yet the story keeps going. The bad guys don't stop just because the good guys aren't around.

[@laurenvelentzas5044]

Rogue one truly was a December 2016 movie. Post election but not yet inauguration, CERTAINLY not yet pandemic era, that constant mantra of “keep going, keep fighting, everything’s bad but you have to keep trying to make it better, you have to.”

[@jacobblackmon5525]

Despite what you say, I believe Chirut WAS a Force user, but he had only one aspect of the Force. In the RPG, there are three Force Aspects: Sense, Control, and Alteration. I believe that Chirut only had access to the Sense powers, allowing him perception of the world around him through the Force. But he had no access to Control or Alteration, which could have allowed him to be on full-Jedi levels.

[@DracoMagnius]

Poor guy min-maxed a little too hard into sense huh?

[@technomancerr]

Fun fact: in original versions of the script "The Emperor" was "Nixon". Do with this what you will.

[@DDlambchop43]

maybe in the orig trilogy, but in the prequels I see him more like Richard III.

[@technomancerr]

@@DDlambchop43 No, I am literally talking that about how in the ACTUAL SCRIPT in the original trilogy The Emperor was just called Nixon

[@MythrilZenith]

Appreciation for Rogue One? A surprise, but a welcome one.

[@thirdcoinedge]

Really? I thought it was the one thing from the current era of Star Wars everyone could agree was good. It's like that B99 meme, with Rogue One & Andor fans just chilling in the corner, while the sequel & Disney+ show fans are duking it out in the background.

[@jordannoell4222]

​@@thirdcoinedgeRogue One was extremely divisive when it came out. Some fans didn't like it because of everyone dying. Critics were lukewarm on it because of the tonal inconsistencies, somewhat irksome plotholes, and the excessive nostalgia porn towards the finale. The performances were all extremely solid, there was great characterization, and special effects were cutting edge st the time. So there is plenty to like as well, but it was certainly not universally acclaimed.

[@noahpescatore8169]

Ahh, yes: the spinoff of a spinoff movie. Probably my favorite Star Wars movie besides the original trilogy. Hard to believe it’s been eight years now.

[@AccidentalNinja]

Ironically it took several minutes for me to actually be able to start this. KZbin gave me the "you might need to restart your device" message.

[@espurrito4319]

1:14:11 in Star Wars Rebels, one of the main Jedi, Kanan Jarrus was a padawan that survived because his master sacrificed herself and stalled so he could get away.

[@OptimusMaximusNero]

It's crazy how much George Lucas's original draft for Episode IV changed since its first conception. If you are interested, I recommend reading the 2014 comic "The Star Wars", which shows what Star Wars could have been in principle, with the protagonist being Annikin Starkiller, Luke an old general, Leia a pampered princess, Han an alien, Vader a guy without powers, Valorum a Sith, etc. Apart from the characters being much more developed than the sequels, the three-dimensional drawing is GORGEOUS

[@John_Weiss]

You may be misremembering something. I read that Lucas' original draft had _Luke_ Starkiller as the name of the protagonist. There were also rumors throughout the 1980s that Lucas had outlines for 9 movies.

[@lordrath9674]

The reason they dropped the "Cassian's sister plot point" so soon is because Marva told Cassian that she made that up, on the last time he saw her alive

[@metrux321]

Man, I really enjoy seeing you talk about things I barely know about. But I LOVE seeing you two talk about things I do know about, because it shows how much I kinda understand, but can't trully internalize, or put into words, and it's "Oh yeah, you are compeltely right! THAT's why it made me cry/felt so good!" Thank you, from the bottom of my inky heart.

[@wrlrdqueek]

IIRC: Kanan Jarrus was a padawan, who's master sacrificed themself to let him escape. It was part of his personal guilt arc in the show.

[@bluelfsuma]

1:10:26 "Reverse Hero's Journey" reminded me of how Rose Quartz' character was revealed in Steven Universe. I'd love to see a Detail Diatribe on that, but there's probably tons of think-pieces on it already, and I don't know if you were all that invested in Steven Universe.

[@Calebgoblin]

It may take my ADHD ass The rest of the week to finish completely watching this video but I'm just so happy to be here early and get started. Thank you for providing me with much precious seratonin 🙏

[@annieblackwell278]

All right fine! I'll watch Andor

[@wisdommanari6701]

Good, gooood

[@CarbonMage]

Dew it

[@goskawronska6111]

I remember my dad taking me to the cinema to watch rogue one when I was 8. He was rl into star wars and wanted to introduce me to the franchise. I came out of the cinema crying because everyone died.