Satirizing Superman - Detail Diatribe

What's the deal with The Man Of Tomorrow, and why do some people insist on treating him like yesterday's news? Blue and Red discuss!
This video contains footage from Invincible, carefully edited to minimize the potentially upsetting content. Despite the lack of onscreen grievous injury and body horror, that part still has a fair amount of blood, so watch out between 1:01:37 and 1:04:49, and a brief bit between 1:06:34 and 1:06:49.
TIMESTAMPS:
0:00 - Intro
2:15 - Who Is Superman?
11:48 - The Max Fleischer Cartoon
14:14 - Three Really Good Stories
15:06 - For The Man Who Has Everything
17:20 - Alan Moore "Gets" Superman, Unlike Some Of His Fans
20:50 - Highlight Moment: "I promise - I'll never forget."
22:28 - Superman Vs. The Elite
33:11 - Superman Set The Superhero Standard
34:27 - Highlight Moment: "…To a place where I can't follow?"
35:38 - Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow?
39:16 - Highlight Moment: "He thought the world couldn't get along without him."
40:35 - Superman Is Clark Kent's Customer Service Voice
42:18 - What This Tells Us About Superman
47:03 - Superman Is Already A Subversion
48:14 - Beware the Übermensch?
49:00 - Superman Is The Antithesis Of "Power Corrupts"
50:49 - Superman Is Deceptively Simple
52:52 - If You Don't Get Superman, Don't Write Superman
53:56 - Two Kinds Of Satire
54:55 - Mark Waid's "Irredeemable"
56:27 - Two Kinds Of Satire
59:39 - Two Superman Deconstructions
1:01:05 - Invincible
1:06:49 - Neither Of Us Have Watched "The Boys" And Here's Why
1:10:30 - Superman Is Not For Everyone, But His Story Still Matters
1:19:02 - The Tangent Zone
1:28:11 - Deconstructions Are Better If You Get The Original
1:29:48 - The "Caring Is Good Actually" Soapbox
1:35:50 - Conclusion
Our content is intended for teenage audiences and up.
PATREON: / osp
PODCAST: overlysarcasticpodcast.transi...
DISCORD: / discord
MERCH: overlysarcastic.shop/
OUR WEBSITE: www.OverlySarcasticProduction...
Find us on Twitter / ospyoutube
Find us on Reddit / osp
Want this video in another language? Check out our guide to contributing translated captions: www.overlysarcasticproduction...

[@laurel9629]

As a Tumblr post once said: “In a world with no consequences, why would you choose to follow the rules?” “Because my no-consequences power fantasy is being able to help people”

[@futurestoryteller]

Here's how I look at questioning Superman's moral compass. Superman stops bank robbers, it's a cliche that this is an easy way for him to spend thirty seconds of a slow day, taking down armed thieves who are nonetheless powerless to stop Superman. Now, what if Superman was Robin Hood, he steals from banks, and rich people, and _gives it away_ to the poor and needy. Now what does the real Superman do when he's confronted with Robin Hood Superman? Better yet: what if the banks being robbed are demonstrably corrupt entities and the people getting the money are the victims of their financial corruption, but lost a previous court battle because the bank had more political pull, and better lawyers? Does he put a stop to this? Especially if he's the only one who can? Does he just accept the law, in a straight-arrow cop way? Even if it's blatantly unethical? In other words: Is Superman just a tool of authority? And if he isn't why does he prioritize the dozens of people ripping off banks when banks rip off millions.

[@jsange]

In a world with no consequences I would just kind of do whatever the fuck I wanted at any given time. It would be great. I want to eat, I go and get food. I want to drink, I go to a distillery. I see someone who's having a bad time, I go and help them out so their screams don't haunt my dreams or whatever, and instead I go to sleep seeing their thankful face and feeling pleased with myself.

[@zetagen]

I think that post was about playing healers or More specifically clerics in TTRPGs right?

[@laurel9629]

@@zetagen I think it was about how people often choose to be nice to NPCs in video games but I could be wrong

[@mosorireayewale2820]

@@futurestoryteller Well, he would definitely put Robin Hood superman in jail (because a super-person breaking into a bank, threatening the workers with violence and stealing shit is still a notable-enough crime) and then Clark Kent publishes a scathing article about the Bank after Superman gives them a stern warning. Robin Hood Superman sounds good in this context but is pretty much "I will break the law to help people", which is all good until he starts breaking the laws in ways we don't like. He's still a bad guy lol, his philosophy just happens to be justified in this very specific example.

[@Leuk117]

There's a quote from Batman I really like. "It's a remarkable dichotomy. In many ways, Clark is the most human of us all. Then... he shoots fire from the sky and it is difficult to not think of him as a god. And how fortunate we all are that the thought never occurs to him."

[@Corpsman913]

That arc from Batman & Superman is hands down one of my favorite storylines. The moment when they both emerge from the elevator and look at eachother is so awesome.

[@randomd00d19]

Exactly. Superman is the best case scenario when an alien god lives among human beings. He is an idealized concept. A charming fantasy.

[@stewievengeance]

Honestly why I love superman. He's a pure heart. And I'm so tired of the overdone batman rhetoric and diehard fans. But lines like that make me like batman a bit as well.

[@erievhs]

And they were from my hometown Cleveland Ohio!!!

[@Starlitsoul0359]

@@stewievengeance It really boils down to, if you can’t imagine a version of batman giving a hug to a traumatized child. *That’s not your batman, that’s a dark clad imposter.* He’s supposed to be a darker hero, not because he’s dark and gritty, but because he uses the dark to his advantage and works through basically outthinking and outdoing his opponents in every possible aspect. Cause at the end of the day, he’s just a human. All the heroes have their different “flavors” so to speak, Batman is dark and brooding with his only super power being Money and pure, unrivaled, GRIT. Superman is your classic upstanding guy who’s humility and compassion are both second to none. And I recall The Flash basically just caring a lot about the people underneath the masks, both on the hero’s and villian’s side. Like. Have you seen that one scene in the show where he literally just sits down with the trickster and just effectively says “Hey you’re in the suit again buddy, but that’s alright, just head back to the hospital and turn yourself in after you finish this drink alright? I’ll even swing by to play darts with ya!” It’s just, when they’re all done right, they work incredibly well together.

[@KekeliKeli]

I saw a great comment on a similar video about Superman that said "The reason why in modern times its so common to satirize Superman and make him evil is because they think it's "more realistic". Because more so than eye lazers and super strength and flying, the thing we find most unbelievable is that someone with power could be a good and honest person, down to his core"

[@jouheikisaragi6075]

And to further make the problem of "evil superman is overdone and boring", I hold that very idea that powerful people are incapable of remaining good forever, they WILL corrupt and become twisted bastards. And that very reality is WHY Superman is so compelling and inspiring, he remains good and defies out expectations of reality. It's also why I like the Alan Moore angle of "Superman is a sacrifice for Clark". He is such a good guy who choses to do good because his morals are so strong he MUST use his powers for good, even when all he wants is a peaceful life where nobody NEEDS saving, where EVERYONE is happy.

[@Beacuzz]

​@@jouheikisaragi6075one of the weirdest parts of the take of "how could he care for us, we must be ants to him" is that that is a Lex Luthor thought. That is Lex's thesis. If your thought about a superhero is the same as their main villain, maybe rethink that!

[@Shadow1Yaz]

Wow, My Adventures with Superman states this outright. Many people call Superman a liar and he’s like “is it really too hard to believe that I just want to help out?” Evidently, the answer is yes. Even Loise (until spoilers) can’t believe it.

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

@@Beacuzz if anything the best portrayal of "the audience / readers becoming more like luthor" i have seen was in that elseworlds comic "batman last knight on earth". with luthor holding himself and superman in a special trial, in which they will have to convince each other and the world to choose hope or doom. and the people of earth will choose the winner and the loser will die (don't ask how, i have read summaries of the story) superman actually managed to convince luthor of choosing hope, but ironically, just when that happened, luthor had already convinced the population of earth to choose doom, causing them to kill superman, to the horror of a newly reformed luthor

[@Beacuzz]

@@ianr.navahuber2195 yeah that sounds about right

[@_maple_gaming]

I think that what Invincible does really well is that it splits Superman in two: Omni-Man is Kal-El, all-powerful alien vigilante, and Mark is Clark Kent, with his humble upbringing around other normal humans. And it asks the question - which part makes Superman super? And it delivers its answer: Clark Kent. Without question.

[@mrreyes5004]

100% yes. I think Season 1's final fight shows that perfectly. The first half of the episode (heck, a subplot of the whole season) shows Omni-Man trying to make Mark into a true Viltrumite: powerful, ruthless, imperious and war-like. Yet even though Mark gets his ass handed to him and fails to do any lasting damage, Omni-Man ends up being the one who can't finish the fight and spares Mark to leave Earth. The remorseful tears in Omni-Man's eyes prove that, ironically, Mark and his fellow Earthlings turned the all-powerful alien into becoming more human.

[@ariandynas]

In fact, it proves the point so soundly that *Clark Kent makes Superman human*. Because in the end, Mark will redeem his father - and indeed, all the Viltruumites.

[@BeOurBee]

I see Omni-Man as representing a kind of Kryptonian society that was the Ubermensch in the cynical, amoral sense of the phrase. They were an objectively overpowered species of people who fought ideological wars and the most "we're already the pinnacle, we owe nobody anything and everybody needs to recognize our inherent supremacy" faction was the last left standing. So that's all the Viltrumites are because they killed the ones that didn't believe it. It's Earth life that made Mark turn out compassionate and empathetic because he wasn't raised soaked in that mindset. It also helped that in-universe his powers came in unusually late during his life, so he had to learn to deal with things like anybody else did while he was a child, and couldn't become a supertoddler that never had to grow up.

[@doopdoopdopdop7424]

In other words, Omniman is General Zod/General Jax-Ur.

[@Quasimodo-mq8tw]

Pretty much. Also i this discussion made me realise why he is called invinsible(by the author). Yes he is far, far, far from invinsible in the physical sense. But his Spirit and ideals do not break.

[@schleb5541]

The sentence "Superman is Clark Kent's 'Customer Service' voice." Has me, a customer service person, suddenly feeling a little better about my job 😌

[@marocat4749]

Hey you have to handle with a lot people probably mishandled anger or otherwise frustrating antics. That cant be easy.

[@CharlesUrban]

THIS looks like a job for...TECH SUPPORT MAAAAAAN!

[@coltonpalmer8940]

Right?

[@victordaniels600]

yeah! you're the real hero 😤☺️

[@Phantom86d]

@@CharlesUrban OMG! BICYCLE REPAIR MAN! (In a world where everyone is Superman, one man is determined to be different!)

[@jordanloux3883]

My favorite Superman satire is Metro Man from Megamind. He's another Superman who got overwhelmed by the constant pressure of heroism and he... retired. He didn't kill anyone. He didn't hurt anyone. He just faked his death because he was burnt out and knew that his arch enemy, who was good at heart, would eventually do the right thing. We need more parodies like that.

[@SoldierDelta]

I think that's the subversion that needs to be followed more. I do like what Homelander and Omniman bring to the table in terms of parody, as they're both able to tell unique stories surrounding their powers and goals, but I honestly think that Dr. Manhattan is the Homelander to Metro Man's Omni-Man. Dr. Manhattan (like Homelander) is something that isn't alien, but rather something that was created almost artificially, but, just like Metro Man, he just gets sick of saving people and agrees with Veidt's plan to save mankind, citing humanity as too complicated to deal with. I honestly think the four of them are a part of a punnet square of parody. Homelander and Dr. Manhattan are both insanely strong humans that got effected by manmade events. Metro Man and Omni Man are both pure aliens. However, Homelander and Omni Man are both representations of "Dark Superman", being despicable people that work as a super hero as a front. Metro Man and Dr. Manhattan are trying their best to be good, but they both tire as their roles as heroes and decide to leave/retire. Funnily enough, this also ties into their individual motives, whether it's fame (MetroM), power (OmniM), peace (Dr.M) or ego (HomeL).

[@absoul112]

@@SoldierDelta I think this is my favorite comment on Superman and Superman-like characters I’ve ever read.

[@incognitoman3656]

We need Megamind 2 Aged like a fine milk

[@williamwray2522]

Plus with his death faked it turns him into a Martyr to inspire others to live up to his standards

[@gigawarman12]

Yeah. The "What if Superman was just a major dick?" scenario is so played out, they're actually outnumbering the "Traditional" Superman stories almost 5 to 1. Thank you for that 90s....

[@rythmiccoma2809]

Rewatching this and I remembered one of the most wholesome panels ever where Batman visits the Kent farm as Bruce and the parents immediately know he's Batman. And Papa Kent tells him on the porch together and says that the reason they knew so easily is because Clark talks about him a lot. Batman is his best friend, of course this random rich guy from Jersey he's never talked about knowing is Batman. And the one line I remember was "Clark may be Superman, but he talks like he believes you can walk on water". I don't know if it's the exact quote but I think it's sweet how much Clark loves his buddy Edit: I dug it up. "Honestly, Clark may be able to leap tall buildings in a single bound but he believes you can walk on water, son. I shouldn't be telling you this, it's worse than showing you his baby photos. But I'm pretty sure you're his hero."

[@kaseyprime9284]

Do you know what comic that was

[@trequor]

Makes sense i suppose. Batman does what Superman does, except Batman isn't bullet proof

[@brettgillespie7089]

​@@kaseyprime9284it was one of the injustice ones. I think the first injustice 2 one but i'm not 100%

[@McDonaldWilliamT]

​@@trequorPretty much. Falls into the same line of thought with some 40k stories about Space Marines who actually respect and even admire some guardsmen. All because those guardsmen put it all on the line just the same as the Astartes, but aren't genetically enhanced super warriors.

[@mrreyes5004]

@@trequor That just speaks to the powerful respect that both Superman and Batman have for each other. Superman admires Batman for being a mortal man that can throw hands with gods, while Batman admires Superman for never being corrupted by his power (unlike egomaniacs like Homelander or Injustice!Supes). Batman himself has his own quotes showing that the respect is mutual, like this gem: "His whole planet was destroyed. He's the last of a holocaust. He grew up in the dirt, finding out slowly how _different_ he was. A stranger discovering _every day_ how strange he was. *He has the power to tear the world apart. And he could.* With a pinkie. It's _not_ his world. We're _not_ his people. We should be _ants_ to him. Imagine that. _Always_ being on the outside. The _pain_ that would come from always being on the outside. And yet, *he took that pain and became the **_symbol of hope._* I didn't have any choice but to be who I am. He had _EVERY_ choice, and he became who he is. Every kid is inspired by him. He's a better man than I am. *_He's Superman."_*

[@vynniev9611]

When I was a kid, the hypothetical "what if you could do anything?" always confused me because the answer was **so obvious.** I never even considered people would actually use ultimate power to be cruel. That's what bad guys did. But no, apparently helping people isn't the majority vote in this instance. What a weird thought.

[@WhiteKnuckleRide512]

This feels like you’re missing the point entirely. None of these parodies are about what the writer would do if they could do anything. It’s about what they’re afraid *other* people would do if they could do anything. And if you don’t think using power for good is the majority vote, you’re by definition in the same boat.

[@phastinemoon]

@@WhiteKnuckleRide512both of these comments feel like the dichotomy of “Sliding scale of idealism vs cynicism”

[@impartialthrone2097]

​@@WhiteKnuckleRide512 I think they were referring to the people who comment on videos saying they'd do whatever they want and even kill if they had superpowers.

[@kspoo10_]

Exactly! It weirds me out when people say that all powerful people would hurt others because they'd be "like ants" to them. Like, do they go around terrorising ants for fun or something?? Have they never expressed a sweet care and compassion towards the small ant that runs over their hand as they try to encourage it to go back to the seat or ground or tree that they're near?? How could you ever be cruel to something that small and helpless?

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

@@kspoo10_ I guess there is always the "almighty idiot" trope. I love bugs. I always have. I wouldn't just deliberately smush one for no reason. (I would, however, kill one to feed another. My praying mantises did need to eat.) On the other hand, I'm kind of an idiot. And I'm much bigger and stronger than a bug. And I don't always know their limits or how to take care of them. There have been many, many accidents. It's sad.

[@wafflemansfx]

Homelander isn't "what if Superman but bad", Homelander is "What if Superman was raised by a corporation to be a celebrity mascot?" The "but bad" is a consequence of the deviation from Superman, not the deviation itself. His primary underlying character arc is "How would a narcissist's need for validation brush up against their superiority complex if they had near-limitless power?" Also bafflingly, Homelander is apparently one of those characters we can now add to the list of "people unironically like them and don't realize they're supposed to be the bad guy", which is terrifying.

[@gangstarrulez]

Came here to see if anyone said this. Homelander isn’t “bad Superman”, he’s “what if all the things that made Superman the unshakeable beacon of light he is were removed”. Superman isn’t good just because he’s good. He’s good because he was raised that way. Jon and Martha Kent we’re good, simple people who raised Clark to be a good upstanding man. It was always stressed to him that his powers did not make him better than anyone else and that they were a tool to be used in order to do good. Homelander had none of that. He was raised in a lab essentially. Never experiencing warmth or love or compassion so he never learned those qualities. He was tossed out into the spotlight but was never taught anything but how to act when people were watching. Due to this, that’s all it could ever be, an act. And when he’s not acting he’s shown time and time again to be basically a child in a grown man’s body. He doesn’t kill because it’s fun or even necessary. He kills because he doesn’t hold any value to human life and when someone like that has extreme power, the easiest way to deal with antagonists is to remove them. Tantrums become catastrophic.

[@bluecanine3374]

Reminds me of Bojack Horseman and Rick Sanchez who both got an fanbase of people who unironically like them and even idolize them when they are written as the jerk/in the wrong characters. Both shows later on eventually had to do episodes EXPLICITLY basically turning to the audience and saying "no, stop it" to those fans.

[@rakusoverthecoals861]

God I hope people don't actually Like Homelander... I mean, he's hands-down the most interesting character on the show because you see how much he just desperately wants/needs to be loved and you can see how messed up his upbringing was to make him the way he is. You see moments of him wanting to be a good father and it keeps a glimmer of hope that maybe he could find his way toward a semblance of decency, but god damn does he disappoint you at every turn. He's done nothing to earn anyone's love or admiration as a person, but he certainly has the most interesting story trajectory.

[@ChristianBawden]

The end of season 3 hit way too close to home for me to enjoy the show in retrospect

[@enotsnavdier6867]

@@rakusoverthecoals861 It's mostly Far Right Trump supporters who don't realize that the character is created to mock them

[@skeletonghost610]

I cannot remember where I read it, but there was an interesting answer to "If Lex Luthor is so smart, why hasn't he figured out Superman's secret identity?". And in Lex's mind the reason was that "He doesn't have one" Lex could not conceive the possibility that this super-powered alien who lives in a crystal fortress at the north pole would ever stoop to pretending to be a mere human. Which is telling and a good bit of insight to both of their characters.

[@SpruceBunbo]

He pretty much said in the comics that he found out that he's Clark Kent and just said "No. I refuse to believe that." My personal favorite answer is that all of Supe's villains know his secret identity, they just don't do anything with it bc it means he has things to do other than stop crime, and besides, as someone online said "do you think he's any less bulletproof with glasses on?"

[@theriderdwaft]

It's a bit like asking what's the president's secret identity it's not something someone who is that powerful would need to concern themself with.

[@TarotVylan]

@@theriderdwaft a couple presidents might disagree with you bro

[@mordirit8727]

@@SpruceBunbo there was a comic somewhere in the silver ages where Lex is super intrigued with Superman's secret identity, and he's just started to study about algorithms to sift through data, so he hires people to write a program that can take in every photo, film and news article about Superman and process that data into possible connections. When the program finishes running and says "I'm like 99.9% sure it's that Clark Kent dude" Lex get furious at how obviously bad the program is and fires the people involved on it before scraping the whole project

[@Canadamus_Prime]

I heard something similar, but talking about Clark's disguise being a simple pair of glasses.

[@fightingfalcon777]

Superman I feel very much fits with the idea that “power does not corrupt, it reveals.” Power in and of itself is neutral; what the person does with it is either good or evil. Clark is inherently a good person; having all of this power simply reveals just how good a person he really is

[@jaydenliberty9536]

There’s an old saying *somewhere* out there about a book of infinite knowledge which, by default, contains information on how to rule the universe and also how to end human suffering and what happens entirely relies on who gets the book

[@seanwieland9763]

11:50 Supposedly Max Fleischer didn’t want to do the Superman animations, so instead of saying “no” he quoted what he thought was an absurdly high price - to which the buyer actually agreed, so then he had to do it. Which is why the Max Fleischer Superman episodes are so lush and detailed - no expense was spared!

[@illuminoeye_gaming]

i was keeping this vid on in the bg without actually looking at the slides oh my god, those animations are so good for 1940s

[@jasonkeith2832]

I think it was more accurately that he quoted them a price around 10× the going rate for animation at the time, and was counter-offered 5× instead, which he then took.

[@JoshSweetvale]

​@@illuminoeye_gamingI looked at them and thought: "Is this retro? Is this a CG filter?" Holy shit those shorts are pretty.

[@RealLotto]

"Alan Moore wrote Watchmen which js on record I have observed the favourite comic of everyone who makes a bad superman adaptation and think they're smart" that sentence is so true it's hillarious.

[@seanmcloughlin5983]

Watchmen is a lot like the Punisher, it’s popular among people who don’t realize it’s making fun of them.

[@legomaniac213]

Which is odd, since Watchmen didn't have anybody who was a direct Superman stand in. They were originally going to be about heroes from Charlton Comics, but Moore couldn't use them since DC had acquired them shortly before he started writing. As a result, he had to re-tool the script to make new characters for the story.

[@nowhereman6019]

Alan Moore also loves Superman and has wrote two of his most well known stories.

[@BigaloMax]

@@seanmcloughlin5983 Reactionary people have never been able to understand satire. That's why they can watch the colbair report back in the day whit out knowing he is laughing at them not whit them.

[@RealLotto]

@@legomaniac213 It's hillarious actually, the first time I read Watchmen I immediately realized the connection between Captain Atom and Dr. Manhattan. Not everyone was so quick and most people is like "ooh a badass guy with superpower that is the strongest and stuff, must be Superman 1!1!!!1!1!!"

[@LordOfAllusion]

One thing I hate about “what if Superman turned evil” stories is that all that happens to Superman is that usually Lois or some member of his family is killed. What this implies is that the only reason Superman is as good a person as he is, is because nothing bad ever happens to him and because he is comfortable and naive. But the moment he is tested, he breaks all apart and throws morality to the wind. I feel like if true Superman’s family were killed, the Superman thing to do, would be to buckle down and keep being a good person. Forgive and push onward.

[@Chaosmancer7]

That's a very good point, but I think it also speaks to our fundamental feeling that... well, to keep in the superhero genre, the Joker has a point. One horrific event can shatter a person. I think you are right, I think that Superman as Clark Kent would try and continue on. I also think that the burden of those you can't save wears even the sturdiest rock. I've seen a lot of superhero deconstructions that read a lot like war stories. Not in the gratuitous violence, though that is there for some of them, but in the PTSD. In the fact that being a symbol for others, fighting life and death struggles time and time again, surviving by the skin of your teeth when others don't. It grinds away at people, its hard, and most people can't remain whole in a situation like that. Not that you aren't also right, a single death of someone close to him shouldn't be enough. People recover from that, and someone as deeply good as Clark are more likely to recover. But I think that the idea has merit.

[@LordOfAllusion]

@@Chaosmancer7 I mean, look at Captain America as shown even by Chris Evans. Cap loses everything. All his friends die, Tony tells him to go to hell, Bucky gets dusted in front of his eyes, Sam is gone, Peggy dies, he is betrayed by his country and hunted for years, but even when things are at their worst, Steve’s morals remain intact and his ethics continue to guide him. Instead of going full Ronin like Clint, Steve grieves and runs a support group for people like him who are also dealing with having lost more than they can handle, and he keeps hope burning. When a chance comes his way, he doesn’t burn the world down, he helps rebuild. As for The Joker’s “one bad day” thesis, both Gordon and Batman consistently prove him wrong. Even with all the torture Joker puts Gordon through in the paralyzing of Babs and all the horrific stuff Batman goes through, they don’t break. I think if Steve Rogers can keep his head on straight in the face of Armageddon, so can Clark Kent.

[@Chaosmancer7]

@@LordOfAllusion Again, I agree with you. But also, look at Thor. The same things happen to Thor... and he's a mess. He doesn't go full evil, but he becomes a drunkard and spends his days in pointless wallowing. Because these things hurt people. And I think, for the writers, they don't think "what would it take for Superman to snap" they think "What would break me?" These very personal takes are common, because you can't write what you don't know. And for many people if asked "what would drive you to murder" someone killing their soul mate or best friend would do it. And Clark's defining trait is his humanity, he's just a man. And so, if you look to what could break even the kindest man.. that's it. That's the only thing you can imagine which could break superman. Not that it realistically would, but if you were to write a dark superman story... how else do you get him over that line?

[@LordOfAllusion]

@@Chaosmancer7 I think that the thing that makes him Superman is that he would not, of his own free will, do such a thing. A Superman who doesn’t care is not Superman. Even in Red Son, what made him cross the line were the intent to create the greatest good, and manipulation by Braniac, who he believed shared his morals. Once he realized what he had become and what he had done, he stepped aside and abdicated. In order to do a dark Superman story, I think it is best served as an AU where he never learned the morals of the Kents. Maybe where he became raised by a Metropolis or Gotham couple. Maybe a Superman raised by the Waynes would be a more interesting Dark Superman title than “I just faced loss for the first time and can’t handle it”

[@LordOfAllusion]

@@Chaosmancer7 Alternately, maybe a story where for a time he lost his powers and was stuck in a situation where he wasn’t the most powerful being and killing was the only option he had. Like if he was a slave on War World for years, or sent to an apocalyptic future where he had to survive as a resistance fighter killing to survive and save the people’s way of life. Or again, a world where he is made helpless and forced to witness thousands of atrocities which might psychologically break him. Even then that doesn’t get him over the line where “killing is the way we should do things” but it does allow him to understand those that kill. But once he gets his powers back, it’d be hard for him still to justify killing out of hand when he has all the power in the world and he has other means of solving problems.

[@evilblack2416]

One of my favorite moments of characterization for Superman was a very small bit unimportant to whatever story it took place in (i don't remember the issue), a short bit of dialogue that runs diametrically opposite to what Lex thinks of him, where he says that he looks up to firemen, he thinks firemen are more heroic than he is. When he flies into a burning building to rescue people, he's in no danger at all. It's easy for him, literally the least he could do. But normal, fragile, *flammable* men running into a fire to rescue a stranger...THAT is brave.

[@seasnaill2589]

In a way I can understand that line of thinking. If you can make things easier for someone, if its within your skillset and especially if it would be easy for you then you should do it. Its cold logic, if you *can* do something you *should* but its also incredibly naive. We live in a world where people who can do things for good just.....don't. Whether through apathy, greed, jealousy, discrimination, self preservation or a variety of other factors people often choose not to help when they can. The fact that Superman chooses to help is not just the 'least he can do' because he does in fact choose to spend his time and god-like power to help people, and thats not something to scoff at. Its honestly a great characterization of Lex. Cold logic without an ounce of empathy or human understanding, desperately justifying his hate for the kindest man on the planet.

[@EmmisonMike]

It's so wild to me how simple Superman's voice is but also how specific it is. like the quote "Orbit, he went into orbit." just feels viscerally him. starting with the most simple way to say something, and then clarifying by putting it in the simplest sentence, while being so specific and clear that he never comes off as simple himself.

[@JoshSweetvale]

It's also how Justice League Superman talks. "No. [Explain explain explain.]" Or "I would never. [Explain explain explain explain.]

[@EmmisonMike]

@@JoshSweetvale exactly! It’s the same guy that routinely talks to people who are panicking because they are about to die and he’s saving them. Get to the point immediately, then if you have room you can say more in terms that are clear enough to be comforting for someone who needs to hear a gentle voice, because they’re PANICKING.

[@quinnsinclair7028]

The subversion of Invincible is amazing because the twist is essentially "Omniman *isn't* the Superman archetype you thought he was. He's the Zod archetype."

[@handleyoassbiatch]

Why?

[@mokarokas-1727]

@@handleyoassbiatch - An alien superman putting up a friendly front while orchestrating a genocidal invasion of Earth, but is troubled by his Earth-raised kin not being on his side? Yeah, how is that aaaanything like Zod..?

[@ahorribleterribleperson]

I still think Omniman is the Superman archetype, but like "What if krypton was an awful place of dictators, and Superman has to *LEARN humanity by raising a son?"* I haven't read the invincible comics, but I watched the show and i believe that it gives an optimistic idea that even the WORST of people, no matter where they are from, can gain humanity and learned compassion, Like Omniman did. Mark to me is a Superboy archetype. But it's a story and anybody has their own interpretation.

[@kyriss12]

@@ahorribleterribleperson In the comics he definitely has a major face turn later on.

[@sydreamer]

@@ahorribleterribleperson to do

[@garretthildebrandt428]

“I’ve always liked you, Kent. You’re a humble, modest, uncoordinated human. _You’re everything he’s not._ “ - Lex Luthor, “All-Star Superman”

[@largeone923]

Clark: "Uhhh... yup... totally."

[@darter9000]

Clark: *drops pen on purpose- Yes, uncoordinated.

[@lavans5721]

Clark: "Ah darn! I got some coffee on my glasses, better take it off and clean it soon before it stains." Lex Luthor, standing directly in front of him: "Thank god the authors have to make me, a super genius, stupid enough to not notice the resemblance between Superman and you." Clark Kent, standing back up and earnestly smiling with some embarrassment from dirtying his glasses: "Yeah I know right?!"

[@willieoelkers5568]

@@lavans5721 I mean, it’s often noted in various pieces of media that Clark does a lot to help sell this image of him being everything Superman’s not in the public perception; he wears clothes a size too large to appear scrawny, speaks in a higher pitch, etc. And it particularly works on Lex because he can’t conceive that someone with the ability to live like a god-king would choose to live like a mortal peasant

[@Marsmuncher]

@@willieoelkers5568 Which is entirely in keeping with Lex's character. He can't view anyone has having a different mindset than him. If Lex had Superman's powers he would set himself has the god-king of Earth and probably the galaxy and so Lex is convinced that Superman would do the same. Even in the JL cartoon when Lex was infused with Brainiac it wasn't just Brainiacs influence that lead Lex to try to destroy the JL and conquer the world with his new power.

[@beastmode7902]

Ok the way “The Boys” portrays Homelander is actually very unique and interesting compared to the typical Superman evil plot. He is controlled by the company that basically owns him. He was not raised by parents and was used from the start. He is then told by that company to lie and make up a similar story to Superman with how he was brought up. When he breaks free from the company’s control, he starts to be even more evil. It basically puts Superman in a different position from the very start.

[@StabbyTheSkaven]

i also dont think he is really a "superman" figure at any point in the show past like the first 10 minutes. and he is never meant to be a critique of superman at all. he is a critique of corporate greed, of boundless capitalism and of modern propaganda and media culture that allows people to spin public opinion however they want. nothing about the boys is trying to say "superman is stupid" or "look what absolute power does to a person" or something. they arent trying to subvert superman, they are exagerating the real world and using the supes and so on as vehicles for criticism that has nothing to do with what this video is about. it definetly looks that way if you just watch the trailers and viral clips but those never really focus on the parts of the story that are in focus, they are just pretty action shots picked out to make the show look intresting in trailers. and i think that really sells the show short because that way it looks like homelander and the supes are the protagonists.

[@neoqwerty]

TBH he sounds more like a deconstruction of Judge Dredd: owned by a corporation/an organization, weaponized and dehumanized, supposedly perfect genetics, treated as a golden boy who can do no wrong. But Dredd is adamantly about The Law while Homelander is about the celebrity adoration.

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

@@StabbyTheSkaven the series isn't trying to subvert superman. the comic on the other hand basically bowls down to "superheroes are stupid and an insult to real life heroes" (so pick the show over the comic).

[@probablytonikensa4744]

honestly i think annie/starlight is more superman-y than homelander even tho homelander has mostly the same superpowers are superman. annie is just a straight-up nice person even tho her dad "went missing", and her mom made her do child beauty pageants, she goes into vaught's team thinking she'll make some real change and when they dont let her she goes around them and does it anyway! plus annie feels like her real identity the way clark kent is the real identity

[@lichlord9838]

In the comic it's a little more complicated. He tried to be a great person... kind of... but it just never worked out. He tried to stop 9/11, but he fucked up and killed the pilots and doomed the plane. Well, no point sticking around I guess. Neither dying himself or taking the blame is going to help anything. Your whole video is saying supes real power is his unshakable morals and compassion. Well, that's what homelander is about. He wants to be superman, but he's just some dude with his powers. He didn't turn pure evil until later, for reasons that are just too big a spoiler to explain. But it basically boils down to him deciding he can do anything, no one can stop him and no one will judge him since he doesnt leave survivors, so why shouldn't he? That said overall The Boys isn't great or anything, in a lot of ways the comics are WAAAAY worse than the show with just how over the top the "heros" are.

[@gusgarrison9211]

I love Injustice (and similar stories) for specifically and explicitly rejecting evil Superman. Evil Superman is an god-complex tyrant, but Supes comes in and goes "Yeah, deciding people's fate isn't our job" and dunks on him. It's glorious and cathartic

[@epsi1259]

Always love when “proper” super man shows up in any given injustice series

[@mrreyes5004]

I always imagine that same kind of domination happening if Superman ever crossed-over to the world of The Boys to put Homelander in his place. Homelander: "I'm the fucking Homelander, you little Boy Scout! I can do whatever the fuck I want!" Superman: _"No, go to your room and grow up."_ --> **Proceeds to one-shot Homelander with a single nose-breaking punch to the face.** Not even super brutal or anything. Just a basic child-spanking type of humiliation as Superman shakes his head in disappointment that these "evil Supes" (Homelander, Omni-Man, Brightburn, Plutonian) failed to be as virtuous as he is despite having even greater power than all of them.

[@pedromorais6826]

​@@mrreyes5004to be fair to Nolan, Omni-Man really is the only one who would put up a fight

[@dljb7463]

Also, when comparing the movie quoted in the video and acknowledging that a lot of his actions are influenced by rebound girl, it's fair to say he even there is morally somewhat sound.

[@italeteller5144]

One Superman comic I love is in Superman: Man of Tomorrow, where Superman announces, in the newspaper, he's taking 24 hours off (because he's gotta hold the heavens so Atlas can attend his daughter's wedding). So obviously every villain crawls from under the rock they were living in to do their thing, and every single superhero under the sun runs to Metropolis to help, and even the civilians stand up against non-powered criminals, because Superman is always there for everybody else and so the least they could do is live up to his ideals

[@archivist_13]

That's awesome, do you know where I can read that comic?

[@connormclernon26]

@@archivist_13 Superman man of tomorrow issue 12

[@archivist_13]

@@connormclernon26 thx

[@demonzabrak]

Is it literally Atlas and holding the heavens or is that a metaphor for fighting off something in space? Or both?

[@italeteller5144]

@@archivist_13 not legally, no

[@NobodyC13]

"You don't make [Superman] relevant. You make [Superman] inspiring." -Neil Gaiman

[@davididiart5934]

My boy Neil here with the perfect quotes again.

[@daniellins4114]

Why is "Superman" in [ ]? Are you paraphrasing it?

[@thesatelliteslickers907]

@@daniellins4114 [ ] is usually used when it's part of a larger quote. And you replace pronouns with the names of who they're talking about in order to make it make sense. The original quote was probably "you don't make him relevant. You make him inspiring"

[@daniellins4114]

@@thesatelliteslickers907 Can't believe I forgot about that! Thanks for the answer!

[@bluesbest1]

Yeah, in a country like America, an immigrant/refugee being raised by an otherwise childless couple and does amazing things both in spite of and because of his biology will always be relevant.

[@Azure_Aether]

So watching this made me realize why the "World of Cardboard" speech from Justice League Unlimited works on so many levels. Superman is SO much stronger than everyone else its not even close. And yet he chooses to hold back. He is so very very careful not to break anyone or anything because he very easily could. This is also one of the things I really liked about Superior Spiderman. When Otto is in Peter's body as Spiderman he realized just how much Spiderman held back. In his own words if Spiderman wanted to he could have easily killed all of them. Truly with both Superman and Spiderman, with great power comes great responsibility.

[@elijahpadilla5083]

Supes and Spidey are two of the three most popular superheroes for a reason, after all.

[@TangledLion]

On the subject of the Alan Mooreian idea of "Clark views being Superman as a sacrifice" there's a great moment in the STAS episode "The Late Mister Kent" where when people think Clark has died due to a car bomb, he's venting about this to his parents and he says something along the lines of "I AM Clark I NEED to be Clark, I can't be Superman all the time, it'd drive me nuts!" it really seems to come from that place. I'd actually highly recommend that episode by the way outside of that moment, it's all about Superman trying to save just some random innocent man from death row by finding proof he is innocent, I almost wonder if it's based on the story mentioned in the beginning.

[@BowlOfApples]

As a fan of the Boys, it was pretty funny when Red said there was more interesting stuff in the comics, rather than the show. I think if they had watched the show, they might get a different understanding of Homelander. As I see him, he's actually less of a "What if Superman were the worst?" and more of a "What if a soulless corporation tried to create a Superman? What if he was grown as a marketing tool? What if he was never raised to be human, and so didn't think of himself as Human like Clark Kent does?" When you see the character through that lens, I think you'll find the show has a lot more interesting points to make

[@TUFT149]

@@Jason_Bryant I think Starlight is a much better Superman analogue than Huey is; in the latest season a lot of Huey's deep-seated insecurities and his need to "save" Starlight because of his past and his fear of being useless. Starlight is one of the only characters in the show that, to my memory, is basically always doing things because it's the right thing to do, consequences be damned and is in a position to actually lose a fantastically wealthy and comfortable life. Huey was originally in it in order to get revenge against A-Train. Butcher because Homelander raped his wife. MM because of his past with Soldier Boy. Frenchie because he got caught by Mallory and his feet were held against the fire, and later out of guilt because he feels responsible for what Lamplighter did to Mallory's grandchildren. Kimiko originally just tried to escape and run away, and then she only joined the Boys because they saved her from Noir (though she's one of the other truly unselfish characters in the series). Annie is the only one who realized that the world of Supes was fucked up and cruel, then decided to join the Boys out of the goodness of her heart. Butcher shot her in the chest with a .50 cal for pete's sake, and all she did was raise her voice at him and call him an asshole before joining him to try and stop Homelander!

[@alanlayton6295]

So it’s like a take on what if Kal-El was raised in the USSR, but instead super man was raised by a corporation.

[@speeddemonji9547]

@@alanlayton6295 funny So, the capitalist Superman was worse than the commie? Lol

[@brockjones5613]

This comment. I don't understand why Red would use Homelander as an example without having watched the show itself, surely there are other examples that would make more sense.

[@mcleanimfify]

I agree Red is very off the Mark on this one. It would be better if she just said I haven't watched it so I won't speak on it... undercuts Anthony Starr's amazing performance too.

[@SheffieldsPark]

My take on The Boys isn't that it's "what if Superman were an asshole?" That's just a quick selling thing for people into those stories, but it's more like "What if Superman's power were separated from his ideals?" Because Starlight represents his ideals, the heroism. What if Superman wasn't the strongest person in the room, and he was this young woman who was towards the middle of the power ranking list -- how would they respond to a world as fucked up as ours? Where Lex Luthor's company owned the superhero business, the airwaves, and made superheroes who they were? I offer my counterpoint with the caveat that I will admit that you're not wrong about everything else that turned you off about the show: a lot of it is hard to watch, which I have to imagine by design, but I wouldn't want you to sit through anything that would make you uncomfortable. Please don't torture yourself on our behalf.

[@tonyjoestar2632]

That'd what makes him bad

[@dirtydeeds4free553]

I agree with you take on the boys for the most part. Because the ideals are separated from everybody, heros and villains. Only two characters are morally virtuous. And i disagree in part with the end tho not in this circumstance. People should actively seek things that they dont like and try it. Granted I know red as done research on the topic and us well aware of it. IE a child doesnt like broccoli, you shouldn't force feed the child but you cant simply coddle them. Actively push yourself, so that when something else pushes you it wont hurt so badly. And i mean this in far more than just movies and TV and healthy food.

[@orange_man_from]

Something that made me sit and ponder for a moment was her remark (to the effect of) "I know corporations are bad, celebrity culture is bad. I don't need a show to tell me that", meanwhile as I watch The Boys I'm deeply processing several of its themes and imagery. Made me wonder how far I still have to develop as a compassionate person.

[@bachpham6862]

I don't watch the show, but I would still agree with Red (from the details I collected through cultural osmosis). The show does more to satirize current American culture than to the Superhero genre: they use superheroes as a method of delivery of their point about current polarized culture of left and right extremes and also American corportism politics. Homelander is never really the center of the metaphorical conflict, him representing American imperialism and hypocrisy is. This begs the question that why use superheroes in the first place and saddling yourself with all the imagery and themes? I can imagine modifying the first season of Black Mirror and still make the criticism of America that The Boys make without touching superheroes. However, I don't watch the show (it just looks depressing, and I kind of hate using sex and violence for shock value), and I am open to have my mind changed.

[@dirtydeeds4free553]

@@bachpham6862 very shock and awe with the blood and gore. But if someone enjoys invincible you should enjoy the boys, they are the different sides of the same coin. Politics are definitely not a central theme unless you consider thought control and nationalism as left and right instead of authoritarian or just what happens when people are apart of a nation. Right on the american corporatism. And for imperialism? Don't think so, never noticed it but it could be there. Celebrity worship for sure is present but i dont think it's satirical in nature of the material, its more of a byproduct of superheros. The right extremes are easy to pin down, being a character is an actual Nazi (no one supported her after being ousted as a Nazi mind you) but i cant find any on the left that stand out as purely left leaning instead of authoritarian of either side. But it is more political than invincible ill admit that, tho politics is by no means its focus or goal.

[@everest5718]

“Superman is Clark Kent’s customer service voice” is a great line and I’ll use it from now on

[@Neutral_Tired]

You know what would be a really cool Superman subversion? "What if Clark Kent was born human?" What if he never had powers but still had the same mind and personality?

[@samstarkweather5172]

I think Clark would live a quiet life for a while. Maybe his call to action would come later in life, but it would come regardless. Perhaps he encounters a mugging in the streets or a robbery at a convenience store; maybe he hears about a vigilante crusader in Gotham and thinks, "Wow, we could really use someone like that here." Clark would invariably become a superhero not because he has powers that he must use, but because there are people who need help, and it's against his nature to stand idly by.

[@DaDunge]

I don't think he would become a superhero, I think he'd become a regular hero. He and Lois would become a crack duo of journalist who kept those in power honest by never backing down never giving in.

[@restreven4455]

He’d just be a non douchey firefighter. They do way more than actual fire fighting

[@munuaispapu4732]

​@@restreven4455he'd be a volunteer fire fighter!!

[@louvie1066]

He wouldn't be a reporter, I don't think. Maybe firefighter, policeman, although I kinda doubt that one, or doctor. He'd try his best to change the world for the better still.

[@SmylingTrees]

When it comes to The Boys (the show, I haven't read the comic), I would argue Homelander only acts as a Superman "subversion" aesthetically; in fact I would argue Homelander isn't even the main villain of the show: Vought is. The show is less a deconstruction of the superhero genre and more a commentary on corporate power and how Capitalism creeps into every aspect of our lives, including the media that we consume. Through this lens, in a sense Homelander does acquire some depth, reaching beyond just "what if Superman was evil?" to ask "what if Superman was the puppet of the massive corporate power structures that already dominate our everyday lives in real life?" I don't blame anyone from getting turned off the show for it's (arguably) needlessly gratuitous violence, but I do think behind that the show does have something valuable to say.

[@Simon-ow6td]

Completely agree. The Boys (at least the show) is thematically first of all about how capitalism is corrosive to everyone’s humanity and how it corrupts and hijacks anything that is or could be "good" for power and profit. Including superheroes.

[@CortexNewsService]

This. Unlike Clark, who was raised by loving parents that were a bit surprised he could lift a truck with his pinkie, Homelander was raised by the corporation itself. He's never had a relationship that was more than surface level. Which makes him pretty pitiful. You can understand how he became the villain, but it doesn't make him less than a villain. And while Homelander has the Superman powers, it's Starlight who actually has the Superman ethics. More than once, she tells her allies they reason they need to do something is "It's the right thing to do." That's it. Even as her character does get more cynical and even bitter, she still holds on to that core. She's still Annie from Des Moines, just like Superman was still Clark from Smallville.

[@devnom9143]

The real Superman equivalents in terms of trying to do the right thing in The Boys are Hughie & Starlight

[@Mlpzeldafan011100]

The best way I can think of it, is "what if Superman stood for everything that Truth, Justice and the American Way *really* means". Which is more a criticism of america, than of superman.

[@tobaccomarshall4659]

from what i understand he feels more like what if a company tried to manifacture super man they get all the aesthetics right but they lose all the nuance and soul, because they don't understand the core aspect of him is that he grows up as an actual person, he only looks like superman but in all honesty he's closer to an abused child actor that has turned into an abuser

[@lucideandre]

The “it’s ok as long as he doesn’t do it with his own hand” sort of thing doesn’t just show a clear lack of understanding about Batman, it shows a really worrying lack of understanding about murder…

[@doggodesign4259]

many times he goes after someone who killed a villain. Batman is morally consistent, albeit a bit twisted

[@GPantazis]

Funnily enough I think the version of Batman that doesn't consider murder what he doesn't touch could actually be an interesting deconstruction of both him and Superman. What Happened to The Man of Tomorrow has Clark neutralise himself for breaking his no murder policy because he believes in an absolute, pure, there can be literally no exception even if it's worse for the world at large version of it. And it seems ridiculous to us but, were he to excuse himself for that, it could be easy to see a version of the character facing ever more complex trolley dilemmas, and/or finding more and more elaborate excuses to murder, almost like a junkie excusing his abuses. Of course the Batman movies that do it are trash because they are trying to convince us that this is the canon good guy Batman and this is actually what heroism looks like played straight and we should all applaud the guy for pretending to have a no-kill policy when he's actually performing the mass murder version if why are you hitting yourself.

[@erievhs]

@@GPantazis that's genius

[@ryszakowy]

@@GPantazis i like that one where batman snaps joker's neck and just drives to police station "i want to report murder" and goes to jail when superman asks why did he do it everyone hails him as a hero for killing joker batman says "i commited murder, i need to face the justice for it. i did it so he can never hurt you or lois again" and superman just walks through a wall destroying it and hugs bruce.

[@wanderingseer4354]

Even if it’s identical in the ethical sense it does feel different for the person doing the killing

[@Cdr2002]

Surprisingly, a dark multiverse story put it best with regards to Superman’s core: “A man who could be anything, and chose to be good.”

[@senorsnout4417]

I dont know who said it, but I'm reminded of something I saw on Tumblr that basically said "Subverting Superman is pointless and redundant, because Superman is already a subversion of the idea that power corrupts." And that's stuck with me.

[@Cdr2002]

@@senorsnout4417 that’s a great way to put it, and analysis I would generally concur with

[@TheParadoxGamer1]

@@Cdr2002honestly, i’m curious how amazon will handle Invincible as it goes on cause if i remember correctly the comic gets stupid dark with Mark’s morals and convictions Edit: I mean this because of the comparison of him being a Superman like character.

[@dragoneye2874]

Thank you for mentioning the "Musicals aren't realistic because people don't sing and have rhythm irl" thing, it is my biggest pet peeve as a musical fan, it's just a part of the artform and how the stories are told, its like saying "Why don't these movie characters see the camera person in this small room they're in" because its part of the storytelling and the medium itself!!!!

[@rsparks1104]

Okay, so, the Boys. I'm a lot like you, Red. My favorite stories are ones of hope and inspiration, and negativity for negativity's sake does nothing for me. I like Superman as a paragon, and I always have, and I'll never apologize for that. All that said, the central question of The Boys is NOT "what if superheroes were evil?" The point of that show, and especially Homelander, is exploring how power and societal pressure corrupts through the lens of superheroes. Homelander is horrible and we all know that right from the start, because once it's out of the way, we get to explore exactly what made him that way. The Boys' super-teams are like celebrities, or politicians. They're not *evil,* they're *fake.* People so completely empty, hollowed out by the systems that shaped them into stars, that they barely have any actual "them" underneath all the masks. Each hero in the Seven (the Justice League analogue) shows that corrupting power from a different angle- Homelander is like a politician, A-train is a sports star, Deep is just constantly being corrupted by organizations around him, especially the cult he winds up in, etc. Each one of them suffers immense trauma and never heals from it, since they were put together in a system that doesn't allow them time to be themselves, to grow up. On the flipside, each member of the titular Boys, the actual protagonists, are people who suffered the same kinds of trauma, but didn't necessarily have the power that prevented them from being able to overcome their old wounds, and while each one starts out broken, we do get to see them start to heal. And then, for people like you and me, there's the in-between- Starlight. She's an unbelievably sincere sweetheart who gets thrust into the world of superheroes and has to try to maintain her moral compass in a dark grey world. She's a member of the Seven, and the Boys, and suffers trauma just like the rest of them, but never stops believing that people can be better, even if she has to sacrifice her ideals for the sake of practical survival. All of this is supported by constant cultural satire, where the world's obsession with superheroes mocks our media landscape, our political landscape, our culture wars, and any other aspect of society that the writers can squeeze supes into. It's an incredibly clever, well-written show, and I would *beg* you not to write it off due to first appearances. Trust me, I get it, but it's got a lot more going for it than you might think.

[@dragb9284]

Probably the best explanation of the boys. This does explain the boys pretty well cause yeah even the good guys arnt paragons so to say but are flawed good people trying there best. The only thing I would add is what Someone else mentioned that homelander is a Superman who never had and is still without a Clark kent.

[@CombatSportsNerd]

THANK YOU! Someone who actually understands this show

[@Clearancecartoonist]

Wrote my own essay about almost the same stuff then started scrolling and found this gem! The boys inspires me in the same ways and I love seeing challenged as long as we can engage like this to defend what feels like more optimistic themes of the show!

[@Doople]

Well put

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

That's surprising. I don't DISbelieve that since I never watched the show, but I had no interest in it because I was familiar with the comic series and generally found that, with a few exceptions, it really was that bad. Plus a few moments of extravagant violence or cruelty that felt uncomfortably like the writer was scripting the scene one-handed, as it were, that were tremendously off-putting. How does the show do what the comic does better?

[@Double_D__]

I believe you mentioned in a Trope Talk or possibly another Detail Diatribe that if you cannot picture a version of Batman comforting a child moments from dying, you've just made Punisher in a stupid costume, I feel like Superman has a similar rule of thumb: if you cannot see this version of Superman or pastiche or parody of him talking down a suicidal person from jumping, the creator fundamentally does not understand Superman or how he works.

[@goroakechi6126]

Funny thing is, the one they DON’T LIKE, Homelander, makes a point of showing this exact scenario, and it’s kind of what they missed? He doesn’t actually convince them to get off, he relies entirely on his public image as Homelander to get them to do what he needs them to do. When that doesn’t work, or when he’s put into an emotional crisis, jump.

[@xxlepusxx]

Quite some time later, but it probably was the trope talk about antiheroes. If you can't picture Batman consoling a child (that episode with ace that broke everyone's hearts), you don't have batman, you have the Punisher in a silly hat

[@gingerinajacket8519]

The thing is that relates to antiheroes, while Homelander's deptiction is nothing short of a villain story. "Hero" in the context of The Boys is more a job title than a literary tool. You want heroes in the literary sense? Watch Billy Butcher's Squad, though they fit more the role of antihero too, because their intentions are to dismantle a corrupt system, and their actions are rather brutal. The one who best fits the description of a hero is actually a hero in the show: starlight.

[@benjohnson7793]

I believe it was realism one of the earlier ones

[@kevinnoonan5534]

"My adventures with Superman" I think capture early Superman perfectly: He is an awkward, isolated, humble, naive, good Kansas boy that just wants to help.

[@thomaswhite5122]

I think Lois interviewed him asking "why are you helping people?" And he answered "because I like to help people" and that drove her to investigate him because for her and everyone else who expected more goes "that can't be all" but it is he's a good boy and once Lois learns about it she then accepts "yes he is just a really good guy"

[@nathanlaleff4273]

On Homelander, I feel like he is more complex than you've looked into. Most particularly, the show version of Homelander explores the idea of a "lab grown" superman. The show portrays his narcissism and need for approval as a result of being born in a lab and experimented on as he was growing up. He was raised horribly leading to a superiority complex and taught that pr can excuse any mistake. He only learns that he'd been taught bad lessons later on in the show when he is too far set to change for better.

[@punkrckr6889]

This! Yes! It's not so much "what if Superman was evil," it's more "what if Superman was created and raised by a corporation"

[@WhiteKnuckleRide512]

I also think they really undersell the specific way in which he’s “evil”. Because he really isn’t just some two-dimensional force of malice, the way so many supervillains are. The Gannondorfs and Voldemorts of fiction can be fun, but more often pure evil is just lazy. Homelander isn’t that, he’s just an immensely shitty person. He has enough humanity and self-loathing that you can tell he *knows* what being a good person looks like and could have become that if he put in the effort, but he didn’t. He took the path of least resistance.

[@beepmeepxoxo]

Invincible is not not “what if Superman was evil” it’s “what if Superman was General Zod’s teenage son?”

[@rhadamanthys649]

@Ronald Nygma I mean, he's not wrong, Omniman and General Zod are really similar.

[@grins9882]

@Ronald Nygma 😐😑😐

[@artimuos903]

Already happened in comics.

[@maallos334mi8]

You’re just repeating Red’s thoughts on Invincible

[@firewolfandrewb]

@Ronald Nygma He starts the show by murdering the [Justice League]

[@msf2399]

I have been saying this for literal years: The problem with a lot of Superman writing is that writers ask “What does my story mean for *Superman* as a *symbol?”* rather than “What does my story mean for *Clark Kent* as a *person?”*

[@airplanes_aren.t_real]

That's something that I've noticed recently that a lot of the time clark is either an extention or a disguise for superman instead of superman being a tool for clark to do good

[@ariannay766]

that's the thing with symbols and metaphors, huh? If a tree is a metaphor for love, its not actually love. It's still a tree. Superman may be a symbol that means a lot of things, but Clark Kent is still a person who needs to make logical sense as a character

[@floydharper1216]

@@airplanes_aren.t_real exactly, to me the difference between Superman and Batman is that Batman is the real persona and Bruce Wayne is the disguise, whereas with Superman Clark Kent is the real person

[@airplanes_aren.t_real]

@@floydharper1216 I think that the "bruce Wayne is batman's disguise" was especialy true in the latest batman movie but it has been the case for a long time

[@floydharper1216]

@@airplanes_aren.t_real yeah it's been more subtext up till the latest movie, but yeah it's always kinda seemed like he's only Bruce Wayne for practical reasons, not because that's who he wants to be or who he thinks of himself as. But like Clark Kent is genuinely Clark, and I feel like he dresses up like Superman so that he can have his real life to go back to and live when he takes off the costume

[@terry.1428]

This video was truly eye-opening. 22 years later, I finally understand the superhero appeal.

[@ProjectXA3]

It makes me happy to hear you say that. I'm glad you have come to understand something better in this

[@smanrules101]

Red's speech around 1:12:00 is something I really feel like I needed to hear. Life is really hard but I feel like hear that plus Superman being Superman could make the world better. It kinda hit me a little hard on an emotional level. Thanks Red, I really needed to hear someone say that.

[@woodrobin]

One of my favorite quotes about how Superman sees himself, and how he is seen by others, is something Batman says: "It is a remarkable dichotomy. In many ways, Clark is the most human of us all. Then...he shoots fire from the skies, and it is difficult not to think of him as a god. And how fortunate we all are that it does not occur to *him* ." My favorite quote about his effect on people in the real world (arguments about which angle he's connected to "reality" from notwithstanding) is from Alan Moore: "I got my morals more from Superman than I ever did from my teachers and peers. Because Superman wasn't real - he was incorruptible. You were seeing morals in their pure form. You don't see Superman secretly going out behind the back and lying and killing, which, of course, most real-life heroes tend to be doing."

[@Ixidora]

That quote from Batman about Clark is my personal favorite, it succinctly describes everything Superman represents and acknowledged that it really is Clark who makes Superman truly Good. Warning: Incoming Tangent. Feel free to skip. On the compete other end of the spectrum the animated Batman vs Superman movie showcased some brilliant aspects of every character involved but I particularly loved how even after beating Superman, Batman refuses to kill him because he "wants him to remember the Man who beat him" and proceeds to have a heart attack and die... All part of the plan.

[@mray4784]

@@Ixidora I mean, Superman was weak, he didn't want to kill Batman and Batman was using Green arrow and Robin in the fight so...That's really a victory?

[@Ixidora]

@@mray4784 physically beating Superman wasn't the point, there are a ton of nuances in that movie but Batman fought as a last resort because he refused to be told to stand down and stop being the bat, the fight was the manifestation of his will to continue being Batman.

[@foreverdead1248]

This is exactly why I dislike Justice Lords or Injustice, or any form of AU where the basic premise is 'Superman decides to not be good anymore'. Because fundamentally it ruins everything about Clark and is essentially impossible for Clark to become that way. You have to completely toss out entire personality traits in Clark to make those worlds real. (I also hate how often in these alt universes that Wonder Woman for some unfathomable reason also discards all of her morals and decides to get hot for evil Superman. Just because she is willing to sometimes end life to protect the greater good because she's a warrior before a superhero does not mean she's secretly waiting for a totalitarian regime where any crime is punishable by death)

[@Evil0tto]

@@foreverdead1248 ^This. I'm bored with the whole "Evil Superman" bit that's taken over so much of media now. In its own way its as trite and cliched as Superman himself had become back in the 60s and 70s. I think the writers who do those stories don't understand how morality works. It doesn't mean that a character who is basically good doesn't do the occasionally bad thing, but instead that overall they choose the right unless they feel there's no other choice. Wonder Woman will occasionally kill, but she does so because she feels there's no other choice. The same goes for Superman, but the times he's deliberately killed are even fewer (such as 1987 Superman #22) and only then as an absolute last resort. But the characters regret doing so, and don't start going around murdering. But bad writers think that morality is a switch... on, or off. And once the switch flips then the character immediately becomes a monster. That they, as you put it, "decide not to be good anymore." It's ultimately a childish view of morals. The Superman stories where he snaps and then just becomes a tyrant or a monster are less realistic than Superman himself.

[@andrewdarby8843]

The boys has a superman character and it's not homelander. Starlight is everything you have just described a good superman should be and her presence in the story is an excellent example of why the boys is not misery porn. The world responds to her sticking to her ideals. Other heroes start to realise that homelander isn't right about his might makes right mentality. Many start to genuinely become heroes when they see star light being what they should have been all along. Many try to prove she's just as bad and them and can't, because she isn't. This is just one example of the boys not just being this dark grim dark super hero show. It's dark, but, there is always real hope in it. The boys spend several episodes in season 1 trying to track down a super human girl who can act as proof of the corrupt nature of some of the villains. Ultimately, it isn't their elaborate strategy with military tactics that succeeds in catching her though, it's when one of them recognises that she's just a scared girl who is trying to get home and tries to appeal to her humanity. The story is much more hopeful and human than you might think TBH. It's not for everybody, but, I do think it's being badly mischaracterised here.

[@Sinthioth]

This oh my god if only she'd actually watched even just a season...

[@sawyerlachance1300]

Exactly this. If you haven't seen the show you've probably never heard of Starlight and might assume the most superficial description of the show ("what if superheroes but bad?") is all it is. It's the exact same thought process that causes people who have never read a Superman comic to say "Superman is a boring square and the only way to make him interesting is to make him evil." Don't criticize something you haven't seen, it's as simple as that.

[@darkshadow5581]

also, Homelander has a lot of the "need for validation" that is shown in the other comic she mentioned (Edit: Irredeemable). I saw it less as "What if Superman but Evil" and instead "What if a Superbeing was lab-made". pretty much every problem of Homelander's can be traced (in some part at least) back to how he was raised. Even in the most recent episode it eludes to the fact that if he had been raised by a proper parent, he might of turned out better.

[@enriqueemfloressanchez1728]

I feel like the comic didn’t show that much of this but fair points

[@iradavis7941]

Yeah I'd argue season 1 dips into misery porn, and most of the comic as well, but season 2 on is just much better story writing than many people will give it credit for

[@silver9wolf6]

Just about an hour in and just wanted to say, you've made me appreciate Superman so much more than I did before. I only knew general stuff about him from culture and got a lot of the, oh, he's kind of a goody-two-shoes boring good guy. I should really go watch more animated superhero movies too :P

[@neoqwerty]

He's very enjoyable as a character when you want a comfort show, honestly. Like, he's basically the adult version of Astro Boy with less questioning what it means to be human. If you ever watched that anime (or Megamind) you will probably adore Supes. The only thing I don't like about him is that he's one of those characters cursed to have crap videogames and only one of them is so bad it's funny. Other than that I haven't so far been disappointed, all his animated ventures have been pretty good, I'd rate it as consistently entertaining. (Haven't watched Adventures of Superman in a dog's age but I have good memories of that, it was on par with Batman's animated series at the same time, so if you ever want to marathon a series I'd recommend it.)

[@madtheorist1856]

It helped me come around on the guy too, almost as a sort of realization of how much I truly respect and admire selflessness, kindness, and a strong moral desire to help. That's what a hero is to me, fighting bad guys, having powers, etc is secondary

[@polarvortex6496]

Lesson I'm taking from this is: Superman is the SI unit of morality. Edit: If Superman stands for the American way, then that's an American way I can get behind. Edit Edit: Sideways needs to upload a new video already.

[@EthanMallonee]

I agree with you on a molecular level on not only your original comment, but both your edits as well.

[@authority1565]

In defense of the boys, homelander really only works in the wider context of the show. In how he is mirrored by the character of Butcher, their relationship and how one is superpowered but powerless to improve his own situation and the other is just a guy but is almost completely free. And the deeper fact about homelander is that he doesn't want to be what he is. He wants people to like him, he wants to be the good guy. But he isn't. He's lazy, entitled, psychotic and hateful. And hes stuck cause he can neither improve himself nor have any other ambitions because of the position Vought puts him in. And SPOILERS FOR SEASON 3, that's why it's so scary that he's realized some people will still love him in spite of all those flaws. That some people will cheer as he murders. It's the final unchaining of the monster. This doesnt make him relatable or redeemable but it does make him interesting.

[@robsonrobson9905]

I'll add on, in the comics at least I haven't watched much of the show yet, Homelander is Superman who was raised in an abusive environment. Ma and Pa Kent raised Clark with love and empathy and he's a loving, empathetic person. Homelander was raised as a lab rat by people who were terrified of him and only interacted with him as much as they had to for their jobs. Basically like El in Stranger Things if she was never allowed out of her room. So you get this dark reflection effect, without the steadying influence of a good childhood and supportive parents he never had the chance to learn how to be a person before he became a hero

[@Doct0rLekter]

I appreciate this perspective; however, where I think things get lost in the show is that it becomes (or perhaps always was) about the perversion. It’s not about how a shit childhood made Homelander a shit person, it’s about what shocking shit they can put on a screen. At first it’s refreshing that they don’t treat the viewer with kid gloves, but after a time you realize there’s no substance behind it. They aren’t using the shock value as a lesson, but as a psychological weapon. It’s so unusual that you just can’t help but look at it and share it with people to see their reactions. I think of it like all of those old shock value videos and websites from the early to mid 2010’s: meatspin, lemonparty, and 2 girls 1 cup weren’t entertaining. They weren’t sexy, they werent thought provoking, and most people who know about it haven’t watched more than 5 seconds of it before turning it off or going to vomit. And yet they were some of the most viewed and visited videos/websites on the entire internet (to the point that one of the domains was sold for obscene sums of money). That’s because people saw 5 seconds, were shocked, and showed it to other people as a joke to see their reactions. Hell, usually the person showing it to other people never actually watched the damn thing: they just saw videos of people reacting to it. The Boys is kinda like that (or at least that has become the guiding principle over the course of 3 seasons). Now it is a shocker video people either show off to freak people out or watch because it seems cool/edgy. The show itself really shows that fact off in the raw number of obvious and overplayed product placements per minute. The show is about the shock drawing people in so they can watch a 45 minute long ad for Aquafresh, Whiteclaw, and Wild Turkey brand whiskey (interspersed, of course, with as many Shocker Sketches as they can fit without getting in the way of ad time).

[@hogndog2339]

Tbh I don’t think red understood Homelander, which makes sense considering she hasn’t watched the show

[@zashgekido5616]

@@Doct0rLekter Heavily disagree, I think the boys has a lot of shocking moments behind it (I still choose to blame the source material for that) but if you can watch all of their storylines; Homelander, Deep, Maeve, Hughie, even Butcher, and see nothing but an exercise in what you can get away with on tv, then you're just.. Not listening, for lack of a better term?

[@Doct0rLekter]

@@zashgekido5616 it’s not an exercise in what you can get away with on TV because the show doesn’t care about the upper limit or trying to pass it. The show uses the shock to drive engagement, not to push limits. Also, I’ve seen and watched all of those storylines and that’s the reason I was able to make it 3 seasons deep. Honestly if things stayed at the feeling of those first 2 seasons I probably would give a damn to keep watching, but season 3 has just gotten to the point where I have to wait too long to get to a worthwhile bit of story.

[@Mcl_Blue]

"Why do we keep letting people who hate tell all the stories?" is a question I really wish we asked more often.

[@justas423]

Cus they're the ones writing stories and drawing art, probably cus their hate pushes them to do it.

[@VegaNorth]

Also Corporations are superficial and follow trends that make money

[@Puerco-Potter]

Because some people actually enjoy to critic stuff? This entire video goes on a diatribe about the stuff they don't like. Why do we let people that hate make videos about ?

[@JuanLeon-oe6xe]

@@Puerco-Potter There's a difference between criticism and a propaganda campaign however. As I already mentioned on my own comment, the whole FFXIII scare-mongering (hell, you'd think it's the fucking Nazis they're rambling instead of a damn videogame) to hide the identity of it's director: Akira Toriyama's son, son who doesn't live up to the "dbz ideals of super saiyanism", and now videogames (AAA at least) ended up as a pastiche of High profile by name (thanks for Cancer Triger Toriyama /s), -Barren Wastelands- sorry, "oPeN wOrLdS", _infested_ with microtransactions. And the worst part of all? all of this wankery to cover up for a Toriyama, who is even more of a hack than the famous one (regardless of any real or false family relation) so that the idiot of Kakarot can remain as the go to for "Strong Superhero" stereotypes, which leads us back on why Red is making this video in the first place, all the misconceptions, all the bullshit. At least Red didn't turned out as a Snyder fangirl as well (thank The Lord)...

[@Mcl_Blue]

@@Puerco-Potter Uhhhh.... no? They spend plenty of time talking about both things that they like *and* dislike. And even if that wasn't the case, trying to compare a youtube video bitching about something to someone that hates an IP writing a shitty story for that IP is apples and oranges.

[@lintecassidy206]

I think that dismissal really does Homelander a disservice. He's not "what if superman were evil," he's the consequences of a corporation raising a person as a product to be part of their public image. There's a lot of really interesting conflict where the CEO of Vaught calls him out for being a narcissist, a waste, and a disappointment, but doesn't seem to see that he *made* that by not raising Homelander as a human being.

[@FuelDropforthewin]

Indeed. Homelander is only a Superman analogue in the most superficial of senses, having similar powers and costume. He doesn't fill the story role of Superman, and he's not meant to.

[@knockoutnorko7500]

Really hoped tae find someone in ‘ere adressing this 👏

[@Plumchip]

^ The Superman character’s subversion is closer to “What if Clark was trained in a lab since birth(landing) to become Superman, instead of being raised properly and choosing to become Superman?” and then a lethal dose of the spice that is the following parental issues and elitism.

[@neoqwerty]

@@FuelDropforthewin I'll challenge the costume: he's closer to a fusion of Captain America and Judge Dredd. (the pauldrons are a dead ringer for Dredd, in fact, as is the American iconography as a parallel to Judge Dredd's iconography of being The Law of Mega City One

[@FuelDropforthewin]

@@neoqwerty that's a fair point.

[@canalsincontenido]

I loved supes in the heaven war arc of Morrison's JLA. At the start Kyle, the new Green Lantern at the time, is talking with Wally, the ex-new kid, about how absurd it feels being there among gods. And Supes is like "we're all just people doing the best we can one day at the time". Four issues later Kyle is puking blood and saying "that's the dude who said he was a regular joe, wrestling an angel".

[@concept5631]

What issue did Superman wrestle with an angel?

[@gheee317]

A fun point about Mark's morals is thst he only has that ironclad set of principles because Omni-Man was so inspiring to him when he was pretending to live by those morals.

[@trequor]

It's a powerful meditation on fatherhood. Acting like Superman is important for the sake of your children, even if you are truly a bastard and not heroic at all. Make them believe in you as a hero and they will end up better than you could have dreamed

[@clockwork_mind]

It's also thanks to his mother. The show makes clear that he and his mother were always way closer during his childhood, and his father was more of a distant figure, more of a comic book hero archetype than a father. That can still be a large source of heroic inspiration, but it's not really where unshakable principles are forged. Mark's human-centric principles can only exist because he was raised by a loving human mother in a world of other humans, of whom he sees himself as one.

[@ariandynas]

@@trequor And in part it's also the case that... Nolan lied to no one as much as himself; when he said "I don't really believe what I'm saying, and I don't actually like what I'm doing." Omni-Man was not a complete lie.

[@lemoncitrine7023]

Another fun point is that Omni-Man DOES have an ironclad set of principles- He just has them devoted to his home planet, rather than Earth

[@jesuscampos5909]

"I can't believe that an episode about Superman turned into me getting on a soap box." That's the point of Superman. He's so good that he makes you believe in good again. He's an inspiration.

[@jibjibs9401]

Hijacking your comment to say there’s nothing funnier than ace icon red saying “Aw yeah, superheroes that fuuuck!”

[@amyr.7962]

Yes! Exactly! And it's _good_ to be inspired to believe in good! And to get [sincerely] on soap boxes in defense of hope and striving and compassion! Yay!

[@nathanaelbirhane192]

"Please read another comic" I say that often when talking about Batman in a similar context. So many people I've interacted treat Frank Millers The Dark Knight Returns as some standard for Batman when that story is a contrast 😭 Loved the video 😄

[@edhamey5737]

Came back to rewatch this after watching episode 1 of My Adventures with Superman, the animated show. Never been one for Superhero stuff, but I'm interested in the new show because of this video right here. Understanding who Superman is and what he's like has made me want to consume more media of him. Thanks Red and Blue, you've given me an interest in these stories of hope.

[@lord_azazel001]

When Red says "Orbit, he went into orbit. At mach 7." I love that.

[@s.p.d.magentaranger1822]

She should be a VA or actor.

[@Tomyironmane]

my experience with Kerbals tells me "he's not staying there."

[@Gloomdrake]

​@@Tomyironmane it's not untrue

[@alexanderstavroulakis335]

"If you had superhearing, any second now you would hear the... Pop."

[@UrbanCohort]

"The Ubermensch exists, but he HAAAAATES you." Underrated line right there.

[@akwilson1676]

I think it's mandatory for every Superman writer from this day onwards to read and reread and reread a third time It's A Bird by Steven T. Seagle until they understand Superman. It's written from the perspective of writer who couldn't understand Superman at first but slowly came to appreciate the character. It's a deep exploration of what the character Superman truly represents and how a person can misinterpret Superman. Someone at DC made a mistake not giving this to Snyder when they asked him to do Man Of Steel and BvS.

[@SuperCosmicSpaceMagnet]

The optimistic soapbox rant was very heartwarming. I just want to give him a hug.

[@GamblerofFates]

I’m kind of surprised that Superman’s “World of Cardboard” speech didn’t get mentioned in this diatribe

[@alexwolfe]

Oh totally, if definitely fits the whole power/responsibility deal

[@VGM00021]

The whole third act of 'Superman vs. The Elite' is basically the World of Cardboard speech. It covers all the same bases, just in a much more visceral show and tell kind of way. Still, the Justice League cartoons were stupidly well-written. Best of the decade.

[@claydragonet139]

I think they did not include it because that is not a core tenant of superman. Red mentioned that Superman does not think of himself as greater than others, just another human. So the center of Superman does not think about the world of cardboard around him.

[@BiRios]

@@claydragonet139 or maybe it’s that Clark Kent doesn’t think about it because he just…doesn’t. He can’t think he’s powerful enough to break everything. Because if he thinks he..he might

[@beenu9414]

@@claydragonet139 Superman understanding that he is objectively a powerful person doesn’t mean that he believes he’s above everyone else. Superman knows he can destroy a planet by sneezing at it but to him that doesn’t give him more value than any regular person. Him acknowledging that “the world is made of cardboard” isn’t him saying that he’s a good among men, it’s him saying that he has power that puts so much more weight on him

[@leftistdegeneratejs]

I feel like the boys comic is definitely not in the joke satire. It’s almost astounding how much the show improves over the shallow and cynical comic

[@warshallwathers7971]

But it is tho.. always was a satire. Which is why their creator of that comic is more of a cynical unhappy dude lol

[@totesjokin5354]

Big agree, the show has done so much more than the comic thus far

[@Gloomdrake]

​@@warshallwathers7971 yeah, but it's a bit too mean-spirited to be a joke

[@calebh373]

@@warshallwathers7971 No matter how you hate superheroes, you will never hate superheroes as much as Garth Ennis.

[@stcsuntzucreed]

@@calebh373 Unless you're talking about Superman, Spider-man or Wonder Woman... But specifically Superman... Garth wrote a few stories featuring Supes and they were all appreciative of Superman... '' The strange blue world my father sent me. If you knew how you are loved, not one of you would raise a hand in rage again'' --- That's what Garth Ennies had Superman say

[@a.dennis4835]

"In a game with no consequences, why are you still playing the 'Good' side?" "Because being mean makes me feel bad."

[@petermann673]

With The Boys, I'm inclined to think it's also like Irredeemable and in on the joke. Homelander, like the Plutonian, has a lot of the aesthetics of Superman but it's a manufactured Superman with none of the heart so of course he's a psycho. Starlight though is the more embodiment of the spirit of Supes. With Huey as her Lois.

[@nelsonogbuigwe7500]

stop forcing supermamn comparisons on the boys. its a really limiting perspective and it reduces the show to a fraction of what it is

[@doctordisney5755]

My boyfriend has gotten super into the boys and he said, "in the early 2010s they said to subvert expectations let's make superman evil. Now you can subvert it to superman just being a genuinely nice guy who cares about human lives." And I laughed my ass off

[@TealWolf26]

That's perfect.

[@ellenh5468]

Didn't Mark Waid or someone end up doing that after watching Man of Steel?

[@jurassickaiju14]

@@ellenh5468 That was Mark Millar. Wrote a comic called "Huck" after seeing Man of Steel and being, as he put it, "traumatized" by its depiction of Superman and his world.

[@bullishgroup8304]

The big thing with homelander is he's not a superman knock of he's a knock of of a captain America with Superman powers It's not "what of Superman wus a who maniac" but "what happens when a man raised by people with no compassion to be a 'hero' and to the face of golden age amarica wus giver the powers of Superman" His dad is solder boy a captain America knock off we're he had the mentality of Superman of "I got to be a beacon of greatness I have to be better then them" but with a bigger ego but unlike Superman solder boy doesn't have a super human level of humility and believes everyone loves him and it crushes him when he finds out every one hates him and the people who made are replacing him the then he finds out that homelander is his kid he proud of his child in a way and homelander brakes down and shows humility and just says "dad" it's a small glimpse that they could have been bad it's not the power that made them bad it's the environment

[@doctordisney5755]

@@bullishgroup8304 I'll be honest I dont really care about the boys I just have to watch what he watches because he holds the tv in our living room hostage and he doesnt want to watch tv in his room.

[@jonathanbatz3183]

Quite a few people have said it already, but the TV show homelander basically fits what red described in the segment before: he looks like superman, he publicly acts like superman, but privately Is a broken, weak person that seeks the validation and love from the public and those around him that he has never experienced to make him "whole", to make him fit the narrative that was etched onto him. Its basically superman without Clark Kent: all power and no person

[@TheRabbitPoet]

You said TV show homelander. What about the comic book version?

[@stephensmith7327]

@@TheRabbitPoet Garth Enis thinks superheroes suck unless your The Punisher. A lot of the characters are way more nuanced in the series vs the show.

[@stephensmith7327]

I feel he is a attempt to examine American Conservatism's decent into Far Right Ideology. He begins the series as a Bush era figure but slowly morphs into a Trump era figure and is quickly getting worse. Superman is only relevant as a symbol of America.

[@BellaLovesKaiju]

@@stephensmith7327 how is that more nuanced? Honestly I think the comics missed out on nuance because of this stance, you are either this, or you are bad.

[@andrewjacks2716]

The Boys dedicates a lot of time to exploring how superheros existing in a world with many of the societal problems we face would be affected by and deal with our problems. The superhero corporation is a PR firm and a defense contractor. Homelander's lack of humanity is born out of the cold, impersonal world of the military-industrial complex. He is raised to be a weapon and a guinea pig, not as a human being. He craves the human connection he was denied, but has never learned how to connect with people. He is unwilling to let go of his sense of superiority over ordinary people and as such is unable to connect with human beings. The other superheroes are pressured to conform to a pristine image crafted for them and struggle to live their real, human lives. Ultimately, I read The Boys as an exploration of how modern capitalism pressures human beings to warp themselves to meet the requirements of an often inhumane environment. The good characters must struggle to be good, and they find the strength to be good in their ability to connect to the (flawed) people they love despite the ways that is made difficult by their circumstances and their often flawed attempts to deal with their environment. Also another theme is needing to identify and reject frauds promising the wrong fixes. The Nazi lady promises that letting the "superior ubermench superheroes" rule would fix everything. The knock-off scientology cult is a fraud. Annie has to reject the fraud of for-profit religion and instead find real connection with her friends. The point isn't that Superman is b.s., but that ordinary people have to struggle for the truth that is a foundation for being virtuous and good like Superman

[@remembernovember9059]

While re-watching this video, I put a little more thought into Homelander, and I don't think his takeaway should just be "What if Superman were evil and psychotic?" I think a better takeaway would be "What would happen if you tried to artificially create Superman?" Both Superman and Homelander begin their stories as blank slates, having had their superpowers since childhood. The difference, however, comes from their upbringings. Superman was raised by a loving, natural family. He was taught human morals, the difference between right and wrong, and that he should strive to be a good person. He was taught how to be a paragon. Homelander, on the other hand, wasn't taught how to be a paragon, he was only taught how to look like one. He was indoctrinated by Vaught to be as appealing to the general public as possible without really giving him any drive or motivation to want to, other than the pursuit of validation. The only positive role models he had were the doctors who educated him on American culture, with no real parental figure in his life, which any therapist will tell you is extremely important in the healthy development of a child. Couple that with a God complex and a serious lack of concern over collateral damage, and you get a very dangerous individual, not because of what he's capable of doing, but because of what he's willing to do to get what he wants.

[@Neutral_Tired]

I'm honestly very tempted to try and write a 'what if Superman was a bad person' with the angle of "see, look how depressing this is, this is why Superman is important exactly the way he is"

[@concept5631]

Good luck

[@micahwatt5756]

I want a 'What if' where Clark Kent never became superman, and instead uses his powers to supplement the fact that he's Clark Kent, the investigative reporter. Exposing the 'untouchable' bad guys and then being able to get away with it... because no one knows he's practically invulnerable. And then putting the twist on him exposing a couple of not-quite heroes and causing the other heroes (ie Batman) to start hunting him down to find something to silence him to protect their identities. That game of 'levels of good', and what is the 'greater good', and do you do more good deeds by exposing hidden evils or punching the random terrorism?

[@protatype7487]

I remember hearing about an interesting Superman script a decade back or so, where a foreign spy agency is desperate to assassinate Clark Kent for exposing one of their operatives. Hilarity ensues as every attempt to kill him fails in spectacular ways.

[@michellekeppler982]

I read a book that was basically that at the beginning but the reporter main character unintentionally caused the death of a superhero because of revealing his identity to a supervillain and she starts doubting if what she's doing is the right thing and starts to try to hunt down the supervillain that killed him, she works together with the superhero group that the killed superhero belonged to and they hate her at first. At the end of the book she ends up becoming a super hero herself called Karma girl

[@beebob2877]

That sounds like an amazing story

[@AnimeboyIanpower]

So it's basically "What if Clark Kent was in Persona 5?".

[@Gloomdrake]

This idea sounds really cool, but the Batman part sounds a bit out of character

[@CrimsonVipera]

"Superman is Clark Kent's customer voice." As a person working in a customer service role, I find this hilarious and SO true

[@DawnTyrantEo]

Happened to be watching the video while writing a fanfic, and I'd just like to thank you for making the video. I was starting to get a bit burnt out since the recent plotlines have been quite gritty, and what you've been saying- particularly the lines about the Raimi Spiderman scene, and how it's an exemplar of how sometimes, you can just trust people to be good- struck a bit of a creative chord where I realised that I'd kind of left the positive catharsis by the wayside while I was writing all the negative catharsis. And for the next scene being how the main character's trauma is responded to, it helped me recognise that 'they are reassured that it's okay to trust people, have a cry, and receive a hug from a character they haven't been able to open up to' is in fact a much better fit for the scene and characters and arc than 'their worst impulses are stoked again'. Anyway yes video gud and helpful and it has made my writing and day better so I thought I would return the favour by throwing that positivity right back at you both in informing you of this. *sage nod*

[@neoqwerty]

Hope you had good progress on your fanfic or finished it!

[@MrTombombodil]

I find it very interesting that two of my favorite Superman stories, were written by Alan Moore, a man who also wrote the seminal deconstruction of everything that descended from Superman.

[@laraschroeder5195]

Kind of a nice little side mention, in a comic (and a tv show based on it) superman is dying of basically space cancer. He goes around tying all his amends, Lex Luthor tries one last time to get his revenge etc etc. But what stuck out to me is one page in the comic, you probably saw it even if you didn’t see the comic, of Superman seeing a teenager about to jump off a building, and goes to them to comfort and help them get help from a therapist. It stuck out to me because even when superman is on his death bed, even when he might have a million other things to do, even if it’s only one life and not a hundred, superman still goes out of his way to help, because nobody is below deserving it. Saving this kid took priority over whatever Superman wanted to do in that moment. Saving just a single life instead of none is what Superman chooses to do with his final days on earth.

[@salem-01]

I’ve seen that before and knowing the story of it now makes it just that more powerful. It’s this stuff that makes Superman truly Superman

[@DylanBeaudry]

All Stars Superman.

[@judgedread4929]

Oh my God the cringy

[@michaelraymon111]

It's all star superman Jesus

[@bachpham6862]

I liked that scene too, but I would argue you misread the scene. Superman saved the teen not by catching her midair with his superspeed, but by his words. It signifies the ability of human to both save themselves and save others, even without superpowers, which is saying that humans do not need Superman to save them.

[@epis8613]

The comic version of Homelander is exactly what you described. The point of Garth Ennis's comic "The Boys" is simply "I, Garth Ennis, hate all superheroes." The show is an elevation of the source material in every way. It's a satire of pop culture, while the comic is a mean-spirited edge-fest.

[@jacklajoie9126]

I think they're both mean-spirited edge-fests.

[@epis8613]

@@jacklajoie9126 The show is definitely an edge-fest, but I wouldn't call it mean spirited unless you're a Republican because it does lambast corporate America and organized religion pretty harshly. Otherwise all the characters, even the villains, are fleshed out and have clear motivations for their actions. While some are too villainous to be sympathetic, it's clear that their perception of the world doesn't come from nowhere, but was intentionally cultivated by nihilistic entities with only profit in mind. It is a show about corruption, but no one is evil just because they have a bad soul or anything like that.

[@Arphemius]

Actually, it's just a satire of the focus of the comicbook industry on superheroes, which is indeed something Garth Ennis hates and everyone else should hate either. Comic books can be more than just superheroes, largely reducing them down to this genre has held back the entire medium. Also, just because something is mean-spirited, doesn't mean it's bad. And something is called edgy only if it cuts you. The show is far weaker than the comics in every way writing wise and the way its politics infested it down into the bones does its own part to make it insufferable in parts.

[@Arphemius]

@Ronald Nygma That's true, but it's like the difference between comic book Hughie and show Hughie. Comic book Hughie was a bit of a fuck-up, but show Hughie is practically inhuman - some creature made in a lab, designed to demonstrate, recognize and repent for his inferiority to everyone around him but of course in particular to little miss perfect, Annie, who has been created in much the same way. Comic book Hughie is normal, has some conservative tendencies I don't agree with and some progressive ones that I do, but he's a normal human being. Politics exist, but they haven't been written into his dna. Show Hughie? Entirely a product of the degenrate, misandrist ideology of the left. And it's nauseating to see.

[@ThePa1riot]

You’re right in that it’s better than the comic . . . that isn’t a high bar to clear though. Just because the show has a brain doesn’t make what it’s saying mind blowing or accurate.

[@badpope]

I made the same face when I first watched Ned Stark die. “No. He was on the poster? He’s the main character?!” This show was so great.

[@kaylenvee8150]

To your tangent about Sherlock, I think the most FAITHFUL adaptation to the books is actually a Japanese Drama, which has a RIDICULOUSLY long title; if you want it just ask me I'll give it to you, where the mysteries aren't actually THAT difficult to figure out. They're interesting, but usually, a lot of people are able to figure out some, if not most of the mystery, and it's just a wait to fill in the rest of the holes. Instead, the show focuses and explores the other core aspects of the books, which is Sherlock's relationship with Watson, and also his STRUGGLES as a genius. Dude literally had to take drugs to get his brain to chill for a second, and the show explores a similar concept where, because of how much our main protagonist is exposed to crimes and constantly having to tuck himself into the shoes of murderers, he's always one step away from thoughts of murder to actually COMMITTING a murder, and it's the support system he has, and his own morals, that keep him from completely diving off that edge. It GETS Sherlock and that empathetic HUMAN side of his character that...most adaptations throw away in favour of the 'genius' side, and that's why I like it so much.

[@Notaripoffbruh]

What’s the name of the show

[@Notaripoffbruh]

Also that’s actually pretty interstibg

[@symmetry8049]

RE: Homelander. He's not superman. He's not superman but "what if evil". Homelander is a man pretending to be superman; that's the image he's trying to hold up (or the image vaught is trying to hold up). He's an actor, a fraud. HL desperately needs validation and wants to be loved, yet due to his upbringing in a lab as a weapon, his overwhelming power, and his current public image, there is no one he can see as his equal. So he represses those emotions and seeks shallow validation from the masses. And in his attempts to hold up his perfect track record, he commits many atrocities and descents further and further into madness and villainy.

[@datboi945]

which is portrayed PERFECTLY by his actor, he really deserves an award for his portrayal

[@Raarzard]

Their is however, A superman character in the boys. Its starlight. She's, what if superman had to be a pageant child and hated every second of it. shes a superman who, in spite of all the cynical drivel shes surrounded by, continues to try and be the best person she can be. Her default position is to try and help others despite the fact she feels like her hands are tied behind her back. She always at-least tries.

[@blakebrockhaus347]

Yeah, red saying that you probably shouldn't do satire abt stuff you don't like because you won't get it. And then two seconds later fully complains about a character that she hasn't even seen anything of.

[@datboi945]

@@blakebrockhaus347 exactly, dunking on Zach Snyder for doing obscene stuff with characters but then completely misrepresenting Homelander and deconstructing The Boys as just “torture porn” felt super lazy and out of character for this channel

[@blakebrockhaus347]

@@datboi945 exactly. Homelander in the show is very much a deconstruction of the idea of what is "the American way." And is it pretty? Or is it just fascism?

[@tomgipps2478]

Homelander is the most interesting character in The Boys, easily. He's a "what if superman was raised in a sterile environment with absolutely no posititive relationships and was released into a world where people only ever praise him" kinda guy. It's actually pretty cool to watch him lose control and then claim it back with power. If there is a superman counterpart, it's starlight.

[@Adam1602]

Yeha, like the whole 'Homelander tells someone to jump off a building' bit is a direct parody of the famous superman short where he comforts someone trying to kill themself and talks them down. Homelander shows up for the publicity of it, and when he finds out he's just lost someone personally, snaps and just tells them to jump. the Boys is all about 'what if superheroes were corperate shills', but Homelander especially is 'what if Superman had all that infinite power and was a terrible person?', it stands next to all the positives they said about Supermans humanity. He's basically the Superman Manchester Black wanted

[@JamesCPotter13]

I really like what they did in Diabolical, where he JUST wants to HELP, but doesn’t understand the limits of not only what he can do, but what people can HANDLE. He ties someone up with a pipe, tight enough where they can’t breathe properly, and he doesn’t understand that that is a PROBLEM. But he’s still earnest in thinking he’s helping.

[@TehNoobiness]

I wonder how much of this changes in light of this spoilery thing. Spoilers below the Read More link, but also this is secondhand from watching the fandom melt down, so grain of salt: . . . . . Doesn't Homelander turn out to be a fascist?

[@EzraFieldsofStrawberry]

@@TehNoobiness Only watched the first episode, but I could have told you that from the beginning. Dude's name is literally Homelander.

[@stephensmith7327]

@@Adam1602 I disagree, I think he represents Center Right Ideology slowly escalating into a far right one. Because just like superman his outward persona represents a clasic Americana view of heroics, and that's where a lot of the direct comparisons end. Because he's not really about Superman, Homelander is about how did we go from Bush Era Republicanism (which is bad) to Trump Era Republicanism (which is worse). His arc begins with him taking advantage of a 9/11 style event for profit and in season 3 he kills a man on the street to the cheers of his sycophants

[@TrooperNosage]

I think Homelander is actually an interesting deconstruction, because it's almost like they went in with the idea of instead of a family raising Clark by accident, what if a corporation tried to intentionally make a superman, forgetting to raise a human being.

[@andreworders7305]

You can’t effectively satirize or deconstruct a genre you don’t like

[@MSCDonkeyKong]

You can, if you can understand how it works. I've seen it done before.

[@neoqwerty]

@@MSCDonkeyKong I think instead of "a genre/archetype you don't like", OP should have phrased it as "you can't effectively satirize or deconstruct a genre/archetype you don't care about". If you don't care enough to understand it, then you're inevitably going to parody a complete misunderstanding/mockery of what it is, no matter if you like your pet headcanons of Superman or hate the Superstrawman you built.

[@olotocolo]

And you cannot properly deconstruct or even analyze show you havent watched, but only know from wikipedia article that was about the comic that the show only shares name with and not much more...

[@brianervin7643]

I started watching 'The Boys' just out of morbid curiosity. As a lifelong Superman (and Batman) fan I, too, absolutely despise Zack Snyder and all of the other cynical nihilists who insist on dragging these characters down to their seedy level out of their fundamental misunderstanding of them. But ... I find myself relishing every single episode of 'The Boys.' I don't like myself for it, but I love that show, so, so very much. A lot of it is because Homelander is NOT some cardboard cutout of an "evil Superman." He IS unspeakably evil and depraved, but he's written and acted in a way that they show just a glimmer of humanity in him ... largely because he *wants* to be seen as the genuine "Superman" of his corporately-manufactured image, so much so that it's his "kryptonite" -- that's the thing the people around him use to keep him in check. You're almost rooting for him to find some kind of redemption at the same time you're rooting for the protagonists to finally find a way to kill him. On another note -- 'Invincible' is THE best and most consistently good monthly comic book series ever produced. Everyone should read it in its entirety.

[@thakatspajamaz]

I love 99% of Red's analysis but I simply do not agree on The Boys. Homelander is a GREAT example of flawed, overpowered/power-drunk real human beings in a Capitalist hellscape. He has taken the Ubermench ideology which is a far more realistic real-world adaptation of superpowers than Superman, but that's the point. Superman could NEVER exist because he exists to BE an ideal, to BE something to reach for. In the real world, show me a single Billionaire who is using their wealth to END their dominance over society a la Capitalism. That's the entire point - they don't, and they most likely wouldn't with Super powers. The Boys shows us how it's the unpowered MASSES, the Working Class, that has to work to stop those with unprecedented *unearned* power.

[@brianervin7643]

@@thakatspajamaz If all you can see in 'The Boys' (or any other fiction) is validation of your Marxist indoctrination, your indoctrination has truly blinded you. You seem to think that communist societies are ruled by benevolent paragons of selfless virtue and populated by happy, prosperous subjects who don't yearn to escape to the very nation that you castigate as a "Capitalist hellscape." You also appear to labor under the delusion that you are somehow entitled to the completely-legally acquired property amassed (and created) by the likes of Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk, when you have done nothing to contribute to society anything close to what they have (nor have I, but I don't resent and demonize other people for their success as you do). If I knew how to deprogram you and save you from your mind-control cult by way of a well-worded KZbin comment, I would, but I suspect your programming runs far too deep for that to be within my means. God bless you, and I wish you well ...

[@thakatspajamaz]

@@brianervin7643 this is frankly embarrassing for you my guy. Were you one of the Redditers who raged when it finally clicked in season 3 that Homelander was a MAGA leader type and his followers MAGAts? Did you fly to Reddit only to gasp as the majority of the sub were confused by your anger at this turn of events? The show SPOON FEEDS its message about Vought representing corporate greed, Hughie being the naive liberal reformist and Butcher being the radical who shows him that the fascist homelander can’t be defeated from “within the system” since it’s so fundamentally corrupt. Hell, the show runners openly talk about this and their Elon surrogate ruling class capitalists in Vought and it’s adjacent institutions. The fans who thought it was like some libertarian text were literally bending over backwards with the level of cope if they can’t take its blatant anti-capitalist message. On god. 💀💀💀

[@brianervin7643]

@@thakatspajamaz I'm well aware of the Leftist messaging to the show. What's embarrassing for you, though (or, rather, what should be, if you had the self-awareness) is that virtually ALL TV shows and movies have these Leftist undercurrents. Conservatives, in general, are not "enraged" by this, nor does it "finally click," because we're already aware of it. As in, you're not displaying any particular insight by noticing it, and you're certainly not being validated by the fact that scripted fiction includes it. You're just being pandered to. But, the fact is, there is far more to 'The Boys' than these Leftist nods. Because you're a brainwashed lemming who lives in an echo chamber and is incapable of entertaining thoughts outside of these prescribed categories, you automatically interpret everything through this Marxist lens of "Capitalists vs. Working Class," so you wildly overstate the extent to which 'The Boys' (or anything else) is actually *about* that. You presuppose that, because they take some lazy cheap shots at Trump voters and pander to low-information Democrat voters, it must be some elaborate Marxist allegory. But, no -- that's just window dressing. In reality, these are not "Capitalist vs. Working class" conflicts. It's human nature. Homelander's sociopathic, power-drunk, narcissistic abuses would be much more at home in a story about communist dictators than in a so-called "Capitalist hellscape." You just don't realize that, because -- again -- you're brainwashed, and you're historically illiterate. And that's why you rely on scripted fiction to validate your worldview -- because reality wouldn't do it for you.

[@johnnychopsocky]

Homelander wants to be *treated* like Superman and loved like Superman, but he doesn't actually want to put in any of the physical, emotional, or moral work that Superman does. Homelander is a being of infinite privilege, who knows he's not universally loved and can't fathom *why*, because his army of yes men love him and so should everyone else because he's just naturally better.

[@NoteBard]

I love how the original explanation of his powers is that he's just *built different*

[@wwcyfd22]

There's a little undercurrent of eugenics in there, makes sense since superman came out in the 30s

[@thomasfrye6335]

Invincible has a lot of fun things about how it’s done. The point is less “What if Superman had an evil dad?” And more “What would superhero life really be like [from the perspective of a civilian becoming a hero].” The title card is representing Mark’s desensitization from the comic charm of heroes to reality, and the violence builds up as the show goes on. After the point the show ends, Mark is knowing the horrors of heroism. A line that I don’t remember if was stated in the show yet, but is said multiple times in the comics, is “being a hero is bullshit.” The writers were applying the logic of “how would the world react to X, add in superheroes and how about now?” Everything has consequences. Example of this last point is a spoiler, so adding some line breaks. At one point, part of the arctic is melted. The goal of the villain doing it was to help nature and humanity work together. This is earlier shown when this villain turns the Mojave to glass. This lead to an emergency construction of several artificial moon space stations.

[@sanddry738]

24:55 I’m not sure if this is George Newburn but yeah he NAILS Sephiroth and this Superman voice so SO well! Sort of wish he was casted in the FF7 Remake franchise because he’s absolutely amazing

[@chrisdaughen5257]

The new guy does fine. I thought he was Newburn the first time I heard him in Remake. I think he also played a live-action Superman at some point.

[@foldabotZ]

Yes, it’s George Newbern.

[@TwentySeventhLetter]

I really love the fact that Superman actually puts the "hero" in "superhero", not the "super"

[@catchyname1081]

Tbh he puts both in it

[@TwentySeventhLetter]

@@catchyname1081 I suppose I really meant "way more than", since anyone can write an invulnerable guy in tights, but yes you are right, sometimes his invincibility is quite important too.

[@GiantButterKnife]

I don't know if this is a specific quote I heard somewhere or if it's just a catchy amalgam of retorts to the "power corrupts" idea, but I think Superman exemplifies the idea of "power doesn't corrupt, it reveals". Having absolute power means that you don't have to hide your true self behind a mask to blend in with polite company. It takes a narrow and overly cynical worldview to believe no one would be truly kind beneath that mask.

[@johnberg1348]

Predators predate, *because they can*. Those that go out of their way to help others do so, *because they can*. Wanna find out who and what someone *really is*? Give them power over others.

[@Oturan20]

My favorite saying involving power is, "any man can stand adversity, but if you want to test his character (that is who he is as a person) give him power.

[@RuinedSilver]

The "power reveals" quote is from Robert Caro, the dude who wrote "the power broker"

[@johnberg1348]

@@RuinedSilver Thank You!! I couldn't remember where I'd read it.

[@Gooong]

"absolute power corrupts absolutely" is so stupid. How can there be 'good' emperors and 'bad' emperors? shouldn't they all be Caligula if power corrupts?

[@phastinemoon]

1:27:11 -- I commented this in one of Red's trope talks where Sherlock Holmes came up, but it bears repeating: The best episodes of House MD (which is also a Sherlock Holmes interpretation) also showcase that he is deeply compassionate, despite the reputation of sneering, sarcastic, misanthropy. Cases involving children, or homeless people, or the mentally ill, or other people who are very, very vulnerable and have no options -- he demonstrates remarkable empathy for those patients (in the earlier seasons, before the writers gave up) So, going off of the idea of 'understands the source material' vs 'doesn't understand the source material' -- House MD is like a reimagining of Sherlock Holmes, and everyone thinks it's "What if Sherlock Holmes was a modern day doctor and an asshole", but really, it's "What if Sherlock Holmes was a modern day doctor and severely emotionally exhausted from so many of his patients arguing with him, lying to him, or just not listening to him". I would love to know Red and Blue's thoughts on that, if they're familiar with that show, at all.

[@crystonlight5804]

The most important part of superman to me is that he is human in every way that matters. Compassion, Comradery, love, and empathy

[@Scam_Likely.]

I think Marvel's true equivalent to Superman is Spider-Man. In that they both are essentially moral paragon despite it typically costing them A LOT personally. Spider-Man is just more human, and that's not even necessarily "better", just different.

[@Zarastro54]

I agree. Spider Man’s core guiding principle/“catchphrase” is that “with great power” line which was bestowed upon him by his kind guardian figure and it is essentially identical to Superman’s philosophy.

[@JunAoi]

I'd say it's a hybrid of Captain America and Iron Man, at least in role and positioning. And both of them operate via Power and Responsibility, and Idealism.

[@JuanLeon-oe6xe]

@all of you, yeah you're all right, the thing is that each of the Marvel Heroes does encompass _some_ aspect of Superman, I'm not brave enough to propose any one-to-one correspondence, but more of each Spidey, Tony and Cap representing (and expanding) a particular aspect instead of simply mirroring the whole. Again, all of you are right (I think), it's the question who is worded in a... let's say funny way.

[@alanlayton6295]

Spider-Man is very much Stan Lee taking some of the original core elements of Superman and ratcheting them up. Especially with regards to their secret identity. Spider-Man is one of the few other super heroes that is Peter Parker in a suit. Captain America Is more who Superman is for the other super heroes in his world.

[@TheOtherChosenOnes]

@@JunAoi I would say that Iron man and Batman are much more similar, maybe not in terms of the avenging/no guns philosophy. But definitely in terms of their circumstances in society (rich af) and how they utilise it.

[@quatromanthefourth4413]

I liked All might because he filled superman's role without stealing the show or making it a question of "why didn't All might fix this problem?" He set the bar of heroism and had the ability to give hope to the people long after he was done on the front lines, passing the baton in a nice smooth way.

[@MigattenoBlakae]

I really liked how the time limit of One For All added to the humanity of All Might’s character. It’s easier to remember that he’s just a person like the rest of us when half his time onscreen is this decrepit man slowly dying of his injuries. It also showed how far he was willing to go to help people, especially in his fight against All For One, where he loses the ability to use his quirk just to save people, one final time.

[@ViirinSoftworks]

*All Might

[@kyallokytty]

what if superman was dying and trying to train a new superman I feel like even after deku gets all his powers mastered hes still seeing all might as a guide, he follows the same principles and he's still trying his best to be just like all might(even if he's achieved that and maybe even surpassed) the ideal is there

[@tuckerbird7514]

The real kicker for me with that show was the moment when Deku and Bakugo are shown one after the other as children saying what they love about all-might. Bakugo’s take is that all might is the best because he always beats the bad guy. Deku’s take is that all might is the best because he always saves people. It’s pretty telling that the writer “got it” when the reason the main charachter is so enamored with the Superman analogue is because he watched him pull dozens of people out of a disaster. That show puts so much emphasis on heroes as rescuers. Not just bad guy fighters

[@tsdk107]

I'm fairly certain it's the same episode as mentioned around 41:00 but I absolutely love that in that episode, the Kents mention giving Clark his Christmas presents as a child, and he replies, "You mean, Santa". Love it.

[@GoblinLord]

What I like about the comic Invincible is that not only do they seem to get Superman, they also very obviously like superheroes, they poke holes in how superheroes work from a place of care, a lot of gritty superhero stories seem to vehemently hate superheroes or are embarrassed that they ever did

[@imbatman208]

The thing about the boys is that it also has a superman character: starlight. She's the one with the unbreakable ideals. It's just that she's allowed to be a little more direct and sarcastic about her ideals, and can get a little mad. There's even a point where one of the characters admits (again) that she was right when she warned him about abusing powers, and she gets frustrated because no one ever listens to her. In a way, homelander fulfills the same role as superman, just reversed. He's the bar, bit instead of the highest, he's the lowest. That's why he's so simple. He forces the other characters to be the best they can be, because they have to oppose him. They have to be as good as possible to avoid becoming him. I don't know if that's what the creators intended, that's just my take on the boys

[@trequor]

I agree that Homelander is the best "parody" of Superman, for the reason that he fills the same role narratively speaking. Homelander is a perfect reflection of Superman, while also being Superman. He is simultaneously Superman and *definitely not* Supermam

[@SeraphimCramer]

Something I really didn't like about Starlight's stance against Homelander in season 3 (SPOILERS); they were very obviously drawing parallels with Homelander to Donald Trump, & in that context, Starlight then becomes allegorical for the establishment Democrats who will scream from the rooftops about how fucked up he & his message are, but are unwilling to do what it actually takes to beat him, rather than the actually good & principled people who really do what they can to help people & stop the hateful rhetoric that's dominating US politics. There's no reasoning with Homelander; he's susceptible to public perception, but he's made it clear that if the people turn against him, he'll unleash armageddon, & no one has the power to stop him. The only way it ever ends is to kill him. Then in season 3, they actually find something that can do it, but Starlight gets in the way of them being able to do it because it's not the "right way" to the point that they not only lose their chance, but Homelander gets the opportunity to come out publicly as the monster he is, & in the process the one trump card they had to keep him leashed lost all power, so now because of Starlight, he's totally free to take control & do as much damage as he pleases. Because Starlight couldn't let a handful of really awful people die, a whole lot of innocent & decent people will.

[@olotocolo]

generaly speaking it's painful to listen to Red's bullsh*t here. I cannot fathom how someone dissecting tropes, reading scientific papers and original sources of myths can go so completely braindead to think some wiki article, one I'm nearly sure is about the comic which is awful and not representative of the show in any way, is proper source of knowledge about a character. It's like saying Tolkien was one of the first authors to put LGBT characters as a main heroes because someone described to you lotr movies poorly and said frodo and sam were gay. It's that level.

[@FlammySpritz]

Came here looking for this, that's the first thing I thought of too

[@jagnestormskull3178]

@@olotocolo Didn't the comic come first?

[@ezekielmcgee825]

"For the Man Who Has Everything" is one of the most heart-wrenching episodes of Justice League; unlike everyone else adapting Moore, the writers actually did their homework.

[@wrestlinganime4life288]

Dwayne Mcduffie (creator of Milestone aka Static Shock) wrote the episode man. He was damn genius

[@Technodreamer]

@@wrestlinganime4life288 The whole world is poorer for having lost him

[@wrestlinganime4life288]

@@Technodreamer unlike modern corporation he actually care making diverse stories with diverse characters

[@Technodreamer]

@@wrestlinganime4life288 There are still good folks creating, but the best have always been few and far between

[@wrestlinganime4life288]

@@Technodreamer yeah indie. A stumble across a Nigerian comics series called Youneek Studios, they're pretty cool.

[@salkjshaweoiuenvohvr]

This is an incredibly fantastic video! Thank you so much for putting this up!!!

[@crystonlight5804]

"As the one who stands contrasting against eternity optimism is all I have left" quote from my recent writing project that focuses on a modern reimagining of Atlas, The Pillar Titan and how he contests with his role in holding the very world on his shoulders and I think it will feel like a some-what superman-ish story

[@Spark_Chaser]

In the spirit of "Anything Canon can be disproved," Superman's changed from "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" recently got updated to "Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow." The current writers feel it's more in keeping with the ideals of Superman to be a Paragon for Everyone, and not the older, jingoistic ideal of "This way is right and no other."

[@jackychang9148]

Which goes really well with the title Man of Tomorrow.

[@sev1120]

And it was originally just "truth and justice"

[@heinzarniaung2915]

@@sev1120 I bet the writers had to appeal to American nationalists somewhere along the way.

[@nonya_bidness]

but he's something of a jingoistic character, and had wholly embodied the meme of american exceptionalism. I strongly dislike these attempts to 'fix' or 'update' superman, a character that up _until_ these fixes/updates were implemented, was doing fine. for one, most of his character flaws stem from his 'jingoism'. he's often characterized as arrogant amongst his super-human peers. that is, he sees himself almost as a super-superhero. he often railroads the rest of his team because he struggles to see things from another point of view, and even views them as dead weight sometimes. and he *_IS_* american, not just literally, but in the sense that he takes pride in being american. that last detail isn't a character flaw necessarily, (i'd argue its a strength, but i'm pretty jingoistic myself) but if you're a superhero that works all over earth, it certainly _can_ be in specific contexts. in many ways, these character flaws could be said to be parallels of america's flaws. yeah we're a massive force for good, but we can be forceful and closeminded in ways that one might not want a global hedgemon to be. etc etc, i won't belabor this particular point the point is, not only was he a poster child for everything people like me loved about America, he was also a criticism of it at the same time, and it all added depth to the character. the efforts to purify him and write him (in this case) as a world citizen with super-powers (as opposed to an adopted immigrant child, raised as a kansas country bumpkin, that moved to the big-city, and has super-powers) have made him drastically more bland and unengaging. something people already accused him of in the first place, but then, "truth, justice, and a better tomorrow" is only the most recent in a long line of such adjustments.

[@Spark_Chaser]

@@heinzarniaung2915 During the 40s as We were becoming involved in WWII. After that, it was the Red Scare and Cold War.

[@jaredhall5169]

I've always found Superman's Jewish roots fascinating. The way he simultaneously functions as both a parable for Moses and the Golem of Prague. Plus, factoring in his status as an immigrant? It's all there. Also, as much as we hate people taking on characters that they don't actually like-- I'd like to cite the Russo Brothers for actually taking on Captain America. Like they did not like Captain America before and he definitely wasn't peoples favorite Avenger before his movies. They were able to adapt him to a modern audience while staying true to the character and paying respect to his origins. Ironically, making him more of a Superman than the DCEU version.

[@tcrpgfan]

Yeah, they averted the Ron the Death Eater HARD with their Cap movies. I would probably think they actually took the traits they didn't like and really examined them as character traits instead of just amping them up.

[@wrestlinganime4life288]

Captain America is what DCEU superman should have been. But when you hired the guy who jerk off The Dark Knight Rise and misses the point of Watchmen and wasn't into Superman.. Of course you're gonna get the opposite result

[@kay_faraday]

@@tcrpgfan or perhaps they decided that those traits were not essential? just throwing things out there, not super familiar with superhero stuff.

[@tcrpgfan]

@@kay_faraday Naw man, the stuff where heroes get flanderized hard to where their negative traits are showcased more is actually common in superhero comics (When you have multiple different writers handling different characters in DC and Marvel's main books, sometimes handling the multiple writers on entirely different projects will handle the same character. Writer's Bias will come into play eventually). One guy even made a career as a writer while having a serious hate boner for powered superheros (He wrote the comic the Boys was based on.). So the Russos adapting out traits they didn't care for because they didn't like those traits actually makes sense and is a good thing because instead of playing up those traits they didn't like, they used them to create drama. And in the case of Cap. It was easy to tell they went with his more 'My Country, Right or wrong, but if it's wrong, make it right again' attitude, which HAS put cap in bad spots in multiple occasions in the comics (Looking at Comics Civil War) What the Russos did is painted it in a far more direct light by saying that while he should have lines he shouldn't cross, he needs to face up to his own culpability on occasion (The whole point of the Civil War movie).

[@Vladdyboy]

Jacob Geller made an awesome video about the Golem and Superman. I want to recommend it but its fairly obvious you've already seen it based on your comment.

[@MSCDonkeyKong]

1:12:00 I'm really glad Red is able to talk about past events with the actual clarity that life has always been like this and how we choose to perceive it is within our own ability. I have to tell people that myself a lot of the time, and I'm really sick of hearing "this year is the worst year ever!" for literally ever year since Harambe died. And I'm half convinced the only reason it's when Harambe died is because that's around when my generation became sentient enough to start complaining about it!

[@abrarnoorani8385]

Bruh, this detail diatribe just gave me the sudden urge to write an entire essay deconstructing a formulaic hallmark of what I think makes a good hero story. So far I'm 1080 words and 2 bodies in!

[@NovastarDoughnut]

The "good. Dreams save us, Dreams lift us up and transform us. And on my soul, I swear... until my dream of a world where dignity, honor and justice becomes the reality we all share - I'll never stop fighting." Came back into my head when Zach Snyder talking about heroes killing said "you're living in a dream world"

[@salvorhardim5014]

Nobody tell Zach Snyder about the cats

[@jessArcade]

I believe he actually said you're a Virgin of you think Batman doesn't kill.

[@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec]

@@jessArcade Good. Batman doesn’t kill means he still save us. If Batman started killing, he won’t stop at Joker. Eventually you the average people will be on the chopping block.

[@cyrussmith5242]

Did Red actually ever say what the Zach Snyder quote she was going to bring up was?

[@artist0154]

@@cyrussmith5242 it's in the screen 48:28 theone on the bottom

[@ehudshapira2745]

I have a great story with regards to the whole "ubermensch" thing. My grandma tells that when my father was little and watching superman on TV, my great grandmother, a German-born Jew who lived through ww2 in Europe (and I unfortunately never got to know) passed behind the couch, glanced at the screen, and muttered to herself something along the lines of "Ach, er ist wunderbar dieser Übermensch", as in, "Ach, he is wonderful that ubermensch/superman."

[@Pip3603]

The Boys is very unsettlingly, but it’s also written by Garth Ennis, who has gone on record as saying he doesn’t like a single super hero. “Pick your favorite and watch me denigrate them”. IMO, the boys is supposed to be a mixture of what real people would be like if they acquired super powers, with a corporate oversight. The comic has a lot more references to real life, like how the Supes showed up to try to stop 9-11 and accidentally caused one of the planes to hit the Brooklyn bridge

[@ryanhill5137]

1:13:35 This is such a perfect distillation of why Superman (and optimistic, hopeful heroes in general) are so meaningful.