Developing an Illustration - Draftsmen S3E07

In today’s episode, Marshall and Stan discuss the process of developing longform artwork, from thumbnail to final. They both share their personal process for creating a complex work, the different methods other famous artists use, the stages of the development process, and the importance of working from macro to micro.
00:00 - Intro
02:39 - Illustration Development
08:42 - How Stan Works in Stages
16:48 - Where Did Stan Get This Process?
21:53 - Control Needs
24:44 - Digital Tools
29:09 - Macro vs Micro Tasks
30:11 - Types of Illustrations/Six Thinking Hats
42:40 - Examples of DIfferent Emphases
45:36 - Historical Process
57:54 - Digital Tools and Redoing Work
Show Links (some contain affiliate links):
Aaron Westerberg color study - www.proko.com/course/portrait...
Rockwell on Rockwell book - amzn.to/3v0DB90
Creative Illustration by Andrew Loomis - amzn.to/3yhZVgu
The Verdict movie - amzn.to/3w7JVfc
Six Thinking Hats by Edward de Bono - amzn.to/3yp8iai
Critiques Part 2 (6 Thinking Hats) - proko.com/455
Infinite Painter app - www.infinitestudio.art/
Drew Struzan Hellboy Poster making-of - reelideas.com/shop/drew-struzan
Norman Rockwell: My Adventures as an Illustrator - amzn.to/3wgUEUB
The Natural Way to Draw by Nicolaides - amzn.to/3oqJ5rj
Artwork and images mentioned - www.proko.com/500
“Draftsmen” is available in audio. Subscribe on these platforms to keep up to date:
Spotify: bit.ly/DraftsmenPodSp
Stitcher: bit.ly/2JLMShh
Apple: bit.ly/DraftsmenPodA
Google: bit.ly/DraftsmenPodG
#illustration #development #creativeprocess
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ABOUT DRAFTSMEN:
Stan Prokopenko and Marshall Vandruff are art instructors. If you love the arts, particularly the craft of drawing and painting and image-making… and you want to level up your skills or even make a living with your skills, we are here to answer your questions. We’re here to offer you advice, refer you to our resources, share your love of the craft and maybe inspire you! Learn to Draw - www.proko.com Marshall Vandruff - www.marshallart.com. Subscribe to the podcast at bit.ly/DraftsmenPod
CREDITS:
Hosts - Stan Prokopenko (www.stanprokopenko.com), Marshall Vandruff (www.marshallart.com/)
Production Assistance - Alex Otis ( / alexotisillustration , Charlie Nicholson ( / shloogorgh )
Editing - Charlie Nicholson
Intro Animation - Cody Shank (codyshank.com/)
Intro Jingle - Tommy Rush ( / tommyrush )
Music Used with Permission Intro - The Freak Fandango Orchestra

[@Draftsmen]

Proko 2.0 is live! Go check it out at proko.com

[@TheJoshLange]

"The smaller the thumbnail, the bigger the problem you solve" I love this wording

[@XiLvandaloX]

Rumor has it that if you’re early enough Marshall will sing to you in the comments

[@Will-ge7ri]

Rumor has it snitches get stitches...

[@elfynde8863]

thank god i discovered this podcast a year ago it has made me fall in love with drawing even more

[@yuradoesart5089]

Same

[@alfiemarshall9224]

Someone posted this comment: "I would appreciate an episode on the history of the tools you guys teach (gesture, structure, etc.)" and I think that's a really cool idea

[@erinelriverwind8554]

yes!

[@anima6035]

Ooh did they do this? Great idea!

[@alfiemarshall9224]

@@anima6035 nah they never did 😭

[@ericmonaghan1231]

That woodchopping painting is great. And hearing the process and how many artists have a hefty pre-production with lots of reference is nice to hear. Sometimes i feel like people just pull their genius out of their ass and don't need any help, reference or planning.

[@jeffhreid]

Norman Rockwell, Andrew Loomis... I was thinking of those two just before Marshall said them. Everyone should study those two to see how valuable the advance work can be to building a picture.

[@nelsonvieira9038]

15:51 "is kinda extreme" i feel like you have to go the extra step before you actually draw the real deal, so it actually looks alive, like loomis said "settle all the arguments with your picture before you stretch the final canvas or before you spoil that nice sheet of expensive watter-color board. it pays" love that.

[@user-iv3ui6cc9v]

Yay! The people I'm looking forward to for the whole week!

[@stedilorenzo]

I would appreciate an episode on the history of the tools you guys teach (gesture, structure, etc.)

[@alfiemarshall9224]

@@stedilorenzo ooh that would be cool i'm gonna post a comment that isn't a reply so they can see it

[@zacharyhorvath3615]

I used to not use thumbnails, but I started painting/drawing skateboard decks and eventually I realized that it would make it a hell of a lot easier to solve my problems ahead of time on a smaller scale-now I’ve been doing really finished “thumbnails” (they’re about 6” long😉) and then blowing them up to size and transferring them to the board. I do always leave myself areas to freestyle, as that’s where I feel I really have a lot of fun. I also think that when inspiration doesn’t come, just laying down marks can reveal ideas, and I’ve used that technique a lot for my personal work. My main problem with that is like you mention, getting lost in details and forgetting about the big picture, so to counter that I always try to switch to different areas so that I can better build up a better composition.

[@azalea1404]

Today's take home message: 1) Stan's vs. Marshall's work process 2) Illustration - as opposed to fine art - is serving smth outside itself, a commercial, a visual explanation to a children's book or any other text publication - to illuminate the text so to speak. Thank a lot for that lecture, very inspiring and informative! 👍👌🌞

[@shadypilgrim409]

I just came back here after finishing listening the Marshall's interview with Terryl Whitlatch. I love this podcast so so much !!

[@phoenix0909]

I just recently found your videos & podcasts and I am SO very thankful. Just a tremendous amount of advice and insight. Thank you both for sharing all these. I now have tons of stuff to listen to while I art for the next month or longer. BTW, the whole mini cooper thing… that’s the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon, also known as the frequency illusion.

[@oyasumiwa]

This episode was exactly what I needed to hear. Thanks, Draftsmen!

[@booleah6357]

Could not have come at a better time for me and my projects gotta love these guys

[@ratslaydownflat2540]

Every one of your podcasts helps me immensely, thanks guys much love

[@jamessauve2419]

Thanks for the brief point to The Far Side. Gary Larson was one of my favorite cartoonists back in the 80's. The others were Berke Breathed (Bloom County), and of course, Charles Schultz (Peanuts). Thanks for the smile.

[@jeffhreid]

Marshall’s singing is great, always gives me a smile.

[@camilolarosa7398]

Thank you both for your work and for choosing to share your knowledge. I truly owe you a lot, we are lucky to have you!

[@simonaustin5659]

I love the smaller to larger thread of development. I think it also fits in with the project based learning you fellas mentioned a couple of Podcasts ago, with Monsieur Gurney. Congratulations to you both for another great podcast - much doffing of hat to you gentlemen.

[@user-vl1tl2sv4p]

11:09 when you've watched proko videos for so long you see the picture and go "is that the Hair Tutorial boy"

[@bengemon7745]

Thanks for the podcast, I really enjoy them, it helps get me through the work week, motivates and inspires the artistic spirit

[@drewehrman]

This was such a great episode, thank you for creating Draftsmen and all you're doing for the art community! Draftsmen has been my #1 podcast since it came out and listening to this episode again, reconfirms how great I think it is. Listening to you both on illustration was such a joy, so much good stuff here.

[@ico9966]

What a beautiful podcast, thx guys! Enjoyed it a lot!

[@agustinbarros711]

I’m so happy you guys are doing these videos !

[@veronicafensel926]

I find the tactile/sensorial experience of drawing on a tablet (my preference is ipad) is actually very satisfying and a huge part of the appeal to me! I like the feeling of the pencil against the ipad and the sounds it makes when I draw

[@reberlik5277]

Fantastic topic! Really loved this episode!

[@nikipalla]

Made my day! Thanks y’all. The tru mvps

[@FerBasbas]

Great podcast. very insightful and reflects on a lot of wisdom gained by a lot of work, observing and reflection

[@lulamidgeable]

Stan is such a process person. I love listening to his ideas.

[@jaylynnej.2051]

You guys have inspired me to take longer and slow down in my artistic process!

[@henrnanson9916]

For these podcasts, I'll be looking for 3 things since now: Great info, great advertisements, and awkward intros, if 1 is missing I'm afraid I won't be able to call it a good episode.

[@1969kbl]

You guys are like soulmates, and very funny and silly too. It just makes all the material more fun to watch.❤

[@TheNomiko23]

Probably the best Manscape ad I've heard so far

[@radred609]

The interesting thing about Stan's method is that some of it may well be overkill insofar as creating a single image. But it's the kind of process that results in a greater artistic understanding overall.

[@emmanueldoublin8428]

You guys are amazing art parents!

[@srgba244]

You, guys, are brilliant!

[@DennisCNolasco]

I’m glad they brought up the digital question.

[@stedilorenzo]

This was actually very good

[@nonono9681]

Great episode, nice!

[@neotheta3957]

There is similar joy in the textures and sensations with working digital media as there is with trad, the smoothness of the tablet and how the strokes can just glide is exactly why I love it, electronics also have a scent and of course there's the coloured light and sharpness of the image. That's all preference ofc.

[@alanposch7632]

I think the word is "synchronicity" rather than "serendipity". I find it can really help one to feel on to something and going in the right direction with a project. Also appreciate that technical illustration was mentioned even if just in passing. It seems to be rarely mentioned in KZbin videos that mention areas of illustration.

[@igorl.schmidtsojka607]

what a great episode

[@jeffhreid]

Good video. Enjoyed the commentary

[@mikkelmelby]

super interesting, well spoken!

[@Silbusia]

I love this episode

[@cumfastdieyoung]

A+ job in the thumbnail

[@vanshchoraria6643]

An interesting quote by sorolla," You should not know what your picture is to look like until it is done. Just see the picture that is coming"

[@freshnas1]

I think this is where I fall short on my ideas, I draw one thumbnail and that's my final look, if it doesn't look right, I abandon the idea or complete it but am disappointed with the final look. I get impatient and want it to be right first time round! I need to adopt this.

[@chitamule9040]

I draw many but secretly fall in love with the first one.

[@claudiafinelle7252]

The sketches tell the whole story and are so good! I suppose when a person glances at a scene they don't see all that detail. You pick up an impression of a scene instead. Maybe thats why the thumbnails work so well, they might be closer to our experience.

[@shahinmoshtagh6955]

Pure wisdom!

[@mariacamilagarcia9654]

yes!!! episode 7!!!! :D

[@chrisskjrvik4568]

For digital art I would argue that there's a bunch of texture involved! The pen against the tablet has a texture (I notice immediately if something is off. I can feel the pressure of the nib), the texture of the keyboard as I use shortcuts, the audible sound of the pen scratching against surfaces and the buttons clicking.

[@hilarybush2748]

This is so interesting to hear because I'm also learning story/novel writing at the moment, and a lot of the theory is exactly the same. Start with the big things, and work down to the small level as you revise, because if you put in one of those beautiful lines of prose in at the very beginning of the process, and it's attached to a third arm you added, you might have to cut it off. And not all writers work this way, some do discovery writing (no plan or outline). So, this episode was very insightful! It's nice to know that a lot of the arts work the same. I don't know much about music, but I wonder if it works similarly with composing?

[@hilarybush2748]

I'm getting to the last 20 minutes and you totally mention this same thing. lol

[@ottooldenhardt]

there are a billion different methods to compose music, all based on subjective preference and there are no "right answers"

[@sf5823]

16:50 Having a process and planning well leaves space for spontaneity and better execution later in the development of the picture. So work in stages. 1) Develop the idea 2) Thumbnails and studies to work out the major problems 3) Developing the objects and placements 4) Colour, materials ( make sure you work out the process of the materials first particularly if you're working with less controllable materials such as inks etc ), brushwork etc.

[@iamamazingbarleyph]

i love you guys!

[@michaelwatson3430]

Some interesting and worthwhile points. I'd be interested to know, in a hypothetical commision project setting, at what stage in the development process you should send the ideas to the client? I would assume a colour and lighting thumbnail would be the ideal point, as this would give a good impression of what the final piece should look.

[@TheOneRioji]

I love doing my thumbnails traditionally just because I love the feel or physical medium on paper.

[@Heatherbailey1]

In what magazine can I find the Leyendecker article about his process!? Oh, I would love to see that!

[@cloudsofsunset7323]

on digital art you have the sound of the bottoms, you have the texture of the screen or the glove the textures of the brushes, the zoom in and zoom out. trust me there is a romantic part of it

[@1969kbl]

This was an awesome episode.❤ Now, I hope you follow up with AI latest intrusion.

[@cmapez]

I thought it was so funny how stans process was describing exactly norman rockwells process

[@sofsofsofsof]

marshall looking fresh

[@carolinetiss3052]

Marshall reminds me so much of Sean Connery in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

[@bitmonki]

Great.. when two scouts, marching to the camp fire, thats draftsmen intro 😆

[@majeddraws5104]

I use @infintepainter and I loooooove proko brush!

[@jeffhreid]

The final hat is sneakers, Nikes “just do it” where the rubber hits the road

[@tb8865]

"Come on Marshall, dont name it after yourself!" ("Future Stan here...")

[@camwoz5181]

47:37 does anyone know where to find the Magazine article for JC Leyendecker's tutorial?

[@josemiguelmesaovalle4564]

Digital tablet's does have a textured plastic covers. But we have to think about how to use the software and every software has a different feeling.

[@theleechqueen]

I mostly do galgame or anime type illustrations. From what I've observed most Japanese artists just do a single color rough with rough shading, and then they do their final illustration.

[@Nateolison]

That makes sense, in the context of serialized storytelling speed is a must. But these businesses also have a history of being incredibly exploitative of artists. As a comic book creator, I always take that speed part with a grain of salt. Cuz I think we can create alternative business models that don't require you to work 10+ hours a day to hit the mark. We should have the same time, space, and agency afforded novelists imo. Which would allow folks to take their time instead of inventing better and better shorthands.

[@bepinkfloyd814]

Oh Marshall, i wished you were my grandpa ❤

[@iamamazingbarleyph]

Marshall: "ITS THE BALD HEAD!! THE BALD HEAD!!" Proko: "No."

[@burtscuddledoobies921]

When I offer critique to my students I will ask the students if they one in done it. Because I a critique composition, the use of lights, etc. the procedure of practice and preparation. Before attempting a master work is pivotal to successful image and object making . For instance when I am constructing sculptures I will go through the process where I will draw obsessively ideas finish drawings and paintings of ideas for sculptures I’ll be consumed by that process. Then I will build armatures for the sculptures spontaneously using intuition and memory of my drawings and prep. In the work will be more fresh as well as less overworked feeling that sometimes can happen when over preparing for finished master work.

[@leamubiu]

at 1:00:00, I agree that redoing something is helpful, but still digital is faster and more convenient, at least for small-scale stuff (thumbnails or details). Fiddling with sheets of paper and mediums is fun in its own way, but the extra friction can be extra tiresome when you just want to move on to doing the final piece. It was nice for me to use sketchbooks to relax and improve, but I have trouble finishing some works because trying to figure out colors schemes and composition with pencil, ink, watercolour and gouache is so goddamn tedious! Having to redo things is not "meditative" for me, and I move on to some new idea, making hundreds of sketches for pictures I'll never have the courage to fully figure out and make a proper illustration out of.

[@sorryinadvance5275]

Everyone be quiet, the new draftsmen episode is out

[@rayos_vt]

41:51: The transparent hat?

[@dlf4298]

i loooooove the intro, hahha

[@zationonion]

It seems that the Prokopenko himself is more motivated in this Episode. I wonder why?.. 🤔

[@jeffhreid]

He’s psyched for Proko 2.0 must be great to have his vision realized

[@zationonion]

@@jeffhreid New Art School baby!!

[@TaterProduction]

I literally had a dream last night where my brother was trying to convince me not to sign up for The Great Courses+

[@oznurcakmakl4237]

Altyazi neden kapali ?

[@nerzenjaeger]

You better grab yourself a copy of "The Prince Valiant Page" to see how master illustrator Gary Gianni works through an illustration.

[@pinkcloud3126]

What about 'taking off the hat'?

[@paulzahradka5133]

I disagree with this approach myself although this is a more controlled way to organize. I was taught about thumbnails as well and it is useful, but I like to compose the picture as I'm going and let it speak to me most of the time. This is more risky but really I'm not committed necessarily. I usually can fix any issues on the fly and change the composition. I think the freedom and spontaneity also play an important role, and I can create something unexpected that would not happen if I planned everything ahead of time.

[@karldarwin1253]

Stan: I'm not an illustrator The Wolverine-Pikachu: "am i joke to you?"

[@fernanddurler5822]

Just call yourselves draftsqueens!

[@YoshiMario69]

I have a feeling I missed this one cuz I didn´t recognize the song he sang lol

[@charlysteiger]

I have encountered feelings with Kim Yun Gi, because on one hand, yes....he does complexe scenes with a 5 points perpective and so...but on the other hand he just draws whatever he wants with no specefic or declared intension, so he walks on the "safe path" as only him could tell "this is not what it should be"....let say, he is not developing concepts for a videogame, a movie or any specific goal, so there is no risk at all like "going wrong".

[@GameSharkBlue]

I had never thought about music as process because sound and shape and color are the same to me... but it makes far more sense to consider one jazz and the other classical in compositional framework. And... maybe they are fused in some way. We cannot generate ideas without jazz but we cannot divide downwards as easily... to illustrate the point without sheet music. I had lived for years thinking I was a bad artist because I rejected reference after studies. I wanted to be able to draw free of those bonds, until I read Milt Kahl's take on it in Animator's Survival Kit that is. Realism is a ruse. Perfectionism will kill the spirit. The idea I perceive of your episode is: Small to big on ideas (compose) Big to small on execution (jazz and feeling) And in the middle, make sure to reinforce the initial small idea as it balloons with intermediary shapes. The funny thing is that recently raised artists were taught that "sketch artist" is the privelege of prowess and speed in a studio. A story beat and board artists rarely value render in production and yet in 30 minutes they have the idea illustrated and can be adapted to Keyframes. They live in idea more than execution. So... time... becomes money. Then... R.Mutt returns with... value and meaning. A terrible fate I walk myself into. Ahaha For an illustrator, he must break the studio mold. He must become director of thought. The animator, to me, is taught servitude and is struck in the foot for daring to be other than a cog. An illustrator is unto himself, unrestricted by available cubicles. An illustrator earns his blackbelt faster than an animator because he grows individual almost immediately unless it is divided, such as in Marvel Comics sometimes. What thought is worth 70 hours? What thought is worth 5 minutes? Learn Japanese Alphabets and Han Ink Kanji, and you can speak entire novels in a symbol. Hence why Shinto distills ideas to the soul. Even the leaves, every single one, is a character unto itself. Controlling this flow of metaphors is jazz but to harness it in math is composing. What is classical music but emotional math? What is math, but illustration in tic-tac-toe-like symbols of various sorts to SHOW an idea of amount, place, time, result, probability etc. It is all metaphor. Math is small because it itemizes the result. The shinto soul is big because it is 2 in 1. Math and Language are the same. In visual arts, these analogies make it easier hopefully. Also, Jeet Kune Do: Take what works (speak the metaphor) Leave what doesnt. (Omit what diludes). Repeat. If illustration and concept art is problem solving. Similarly, martial arts, is the same. (Blackbelt Instructor in South Korean Choi Kwang Do btw) I keep mentioning martial arts bc Kim Jung Gi most likely has cultural overlap in mentality as this style was invented for their military historically and he served at one point (I believe in that country though I could be mistaken). Choi Kwang Do teaches infinite generations of body shapes to problem solve in fighting. Post script, The Garbage truck is the bell! Ahahah It brings Marshall back to center and pushes his ideas to fight the noise! Ahahah Like a grape starved for water he strains the flavor further when the truck arrives! I love to hear the wine anytime! Great vine! Ahaha this is just a joke on the side. Much love, namaste and thank you for your efforts today!

[@jeffhreid]

I would say an illustration has to visualize a narrative. To show something that is described in prose.

[@honey3762]

38:38

[@boatrabbitchannel4630]

Marshall is so handsome post shave.

[@AnaEdigaryan]

Bold head!

[@Will-ge7ri]

Don’t use the lawnmower!! I’ve never had my coin purse clipped by any of the other trimmers I’ve used and first time out with the LM and I ended the session bloody and defeated.

[@Lavaeolus]

K I M J U N G G I

[@gryph3714]

*cries in ADHD*

[@theleechqueen]

>days preparing an illustration I do that. Though some of my favorite artists can do one in like 6 hours :(

[@XtianApi]

I love seeing Stan wish that Marshall would speak a little quicker. Haha

[@jeffhreid]

The concept of making sure you have a strong concept then polish and refine. Don’t polish a turd, can’t make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

[@chrissvayart1404]

I just posted a video and here you are guys in the same hashtag. :D Good to see you!