Storytelling - Draftsmen S3E32

Once upon a time, two podcasters, Stan and Marshall, sat down to discuss the complex art of storytelling, and how to do it right. The two chatted about what makes stories work, and the process, principles, and components that go into successful stories. The End.
00:00 - Intro
06:57 - Today's topic - Storytelling
09:23 - Impactful stories from childhood
22:03 - How Marshall got into storytelling
24:35 - Two reasons why storytellers fail
26:21 - Common mistakes made in the 'Process'
31:14 - Templates
40:23 - Two main processes
43:29 - 2nd thing about process
47:08 - Ways to Start
49:54 - How would you define 'story'
51:25 - Fieldstoning- Gathering Materials for Stories
59:30 - Elements of a Story
01:06:14 - Elements to Character development
01:10:07 - Setting
01:11:11 - Deus ex machina
01:13:29 - Principles of Events
01:28:32 - Steps to learn storytelling; 1. Study & Analyze great stories
01:30:48 - Practice/Give it a shot
01:32:53 - Get to know your genre
01:34:20 - Critique your work
01:38:11 - Kristians CRAZY Questions!
SHOW LINKS (some contain affiliate links):
Kristian’s Sketchy Van Podcast - linktr.ee/KristianNee
Lost in Space - amzn.to/3xckcnz
Tell to Win by Peter Guber - amzn.to/3HKwYyv
Storynomics by Robert McKee - amzn.to/3HMCFfq
Heavyweights -amzn.to/3nGLW0i
My Father’s Dragon by Ruth Stiles Gannett - amzn.to/3FBi7o8
Jesse James (1939) - amzn.to/3FJ4SC1
Home Alone - amzn.to/3CHAYfm
U.S. Steel Hour - www.cinema.ucla.edu/collectio...
Film Scriptwriting by Dwight Swain - amzn.to/3oRWCsr
R. L. Stine’s Masterclass - www.masterclass.com/classes/r...
Frazetta - static.proko.com/media/images...
Back to the Future - amzn.to/2ZdXRtj
Robert McKee’s seminar - mckeestory.com/
Human Proportion Chart - proko.com/figure
Twilight Zone - amzn.to/32jT2zD
O. Henry - amzn.to/3cC4AQD
The Anatomy of Story by John Truby - amzn.to/3DKAd6L
My Life as a Dog - amzn.to/30SWbpR
Paper Moon - amzn.to/3cFsuLa
Donald Davis - www.ddavisstoryteller.com/
Gerald M. Weinberg - amzn.to/3CLVmvQ
Superboy - amzn.to/3CI2rxD
Emma Coats’ Pixar 22 Rules of Storytelling - www.aerogrammestudio.com/2013...
Knick Knack (Pixar's first animated short) - • Video
Toy Story - amzn.to/3CUzZJ7
The Verdict - amzn.to/3cFt63q
Midnight Run - amzn.to/3nEX26c
Acting Without Agony by Don Richardson - amzn.to/3xf2rnz
Big Lebowski - amzn.to/3nE9jI2
12 Angry Men - amzn.to/3FKtASB
Groundhog Day - amzn.to/3FFxTOR
The Godfather - amzn.to/3CJfP4k
Nemo in Slumberland - amzn.to/3r0LV9z
Alice in Wonderland - amzn.to/3r5m5Bo
The Simpsons - amzn.to/30Oeexd
Casablanca - amzn.to/3DKWWzo
Flight - amzn.to/3oOGqZ7
Gran Torino - amzn.to/3xlTvNq
Alan Moore - amzn.to/3oRlroz
Sophie’s Choice - amzn.to/2ZckyOo
“Draftsmen” is available in audio. Subscribe on these platforms to keep up to date:
Spotify: bit.ly/DraftsmenPodSp
Stitcher: bit.ly/2JLMShh
Apple: bit.ly/DraftsmenPodA
Google: bit.ly/DraftsmenPodG
#storytelling #stories #artpodcast
FOLLOW PROKO:
Marshall's Art - www.marshallart.com
Email Newsletter- www.proko.com/subscribe
Instagram - / stanprokopenko
Twitter - / stanprokopenko
Facebook - / prokotv
Tumblr - / stanprokopenko
Pinterest - / stanprokopenko
CREDITS:
Hosts - Stan Prokopenko (www.stanprokopenko.com), Marshall Vandruff (www.marshallart.com/)
Production Assistance - Alex Otis ( / alexotisillustration , Charlie Nicholson ( / shloogorgh , Ellie Polk ( / the.mccartski )
Editing - Carrie Maness (cmaness1615.myportfolio.com/), Charlie Nicholson
Intro Animation - Cody Shank (codyshank.com/)
Intro Jingle - Tommy Rush ( / tommyrush )
Music Used with Permission Intro - The Freak Fandango Orchestra

[@Draftsmen]

Where do you come down on the great cheesecake debate? Pie or cake?

[@KiX-K4T13]

Cheesecake is best girl. 😋🍰 But don't tell her that Pie is damn good...so Pie is also best girl.

[@carlosroo5460]

Chocolate cake, anything else is objectively inferior.

[@anthonythompson3215]

There’s a debate? Cheesecake without a doubt.

[@jeremiahsingularo7340]

in the homeland of cheesecake creation it is counted as pie. I REGRET NOTHING!! NOOOTHHHIINGGG!!!

[@carlosroo5460]

Quesillo, but I stand by what I said earlier about Chocolate cake.

[@usvotesonline9078]

Marshall is the greatest gift to the art community.

[@rennley_9233]

completely agree. he’s like “art grampa” - love his insights and his attitude!

[@ratslaydownflat2540]

This is true

[@edwinbeta2806]

Genuinely such a wonderful man to hear talk, and so kind, but not saccharine, wish I could take a class with him sometime!

[@Beatumpop]

@@edwinbeta2806 oo, saccharine's a really good word. I agree also, love to listen to him.

[@purinpat]

I took Marshall’s class at CDA right before Covid lockdown began, and I thought it was one of the most amazing class that I have ever taken. He’s always full of energy and was so excited to teach us and show us things. I remember being excited and alert all the way up to the end of class at 11 pm weekly. There were so much information that I felt like I wanted to take the class again. It was hard to absorb everything, but watching your podcast is like little reminders of the things we learnt. Thank you for doing this together :).

[@agkview]

One positive thing after hearing that the draftsmen show will be closing down, is a change in attitude from my part , and treating the videos more preciously and valuing them more. I am listening to old episodes again while drawing

[@amandasolana2231]

Marshall is a great story teller, could listen to him all day! He should start a podcast of his own

[@joefilmco]

One of, if not THE best episodes of this podcast. Thank you for your wisdom, Marshall.

[@TheDarkPatito]

finally, the topic you have been anticipating for about 3 seasons.

[@carlosroo5460]

You speaking to me?

[@sandwich336]

You speaking to me?

[@TheDarkPatito]

yes

[@AscendantStoic]

One of the best episodes so far, makes me wish we got an entire season dedicated to storytelling and how it relates to the art of drawing (and Comics/Manga), one could only dream.

[@opmenglish413]

This is such a good podcast, I really wish there were more storytelling/narrative podcasts by Marshall and Stan

[@SarahBurnsStudio]

I feel like I'm being cradled by wisdom and love when Marshall explains things

[@colethompson31]

Hearing marshall share his knowledge about this topic was awesome. Can’t wait for the museum episode!

[@iambadatnames5809]

I like how the size of Marshall's and Stan's faces on the thumbnail is proportionate to their contribution in this episode. A symbolic set up right there.

[@RaynaLenskiCreations]

every time I watch/listen to Marshall giving a talk about storytelling, there's always something new that sinks in to my brain than did before - been having a hard year this year and second guessing my choice of being a visual storyteller, and this helped rejuvenate my love of story again

[@cnvrgnt]

I cannot describe how wonderful this podcast is. I could listen to Marshall talk for hours

[@Wolfknightly]

I really enjoyed this episode. I found it really interesting. Thanks. I feel like the Storyteller Podcast would be a good replacement for the Draftsmen Podcast. It is really nice to hear all of Marshall's insights into story telling. Would be interesting, to hear him go more in-depth on more specific aspects of stories, and examine individual stories, and or genres. It's also nice having Stan play the student role and asking all the questions a student would ask. I also hope that you still make a random Draftsmen episode now and again, when you feel like you guys have something new that you want to talk about.

[@marieannpascual]

I LOVE this video. Marshall, you are a precious gem. Thank you Stan & Marshall for sharing ❤️❤️❤️.

[@origins9550]

Studying storytelling can sometimes be very frustrating but I think Brian McDonald is one of the best in explaining how it works. Very simple, clear and honest. Also very Good for beginners

[@justj44]

I'm happy to have the pieces of knowledge shared through the last few draftsmen episodes. Really hope Marshall makes more content or teachings of his own. Always very glad to hear his insight!

[@arthurhenriquecm]

I love The Simpsons episode "22 Short Films About Springfield", the way the stories link with each other and the way they tell 22 different stories is amazing! Thanks for this episode, really helpful!

[@Lunartcy]

This one is my favorite episode so far. I learned a lot and will rewatch it again. Thank you guys!

[@lightbornadventures]

I really hope you guys resume this podcast it’s a damn shame it was paused. There is so much value in each episode, I don’t think you realize how much these videos help starting and returning artists. Either way you decide, thank you both for the amazing and inspiring content!

[@sleeplesshead602]

This is a gem. I am so happy to listen to this podcast. Thank you, Marshall.

[@viccreator4062]

by far one of my favorites episodes of this podcast, I've heard it 3 times, Bravo Marshall!

[@karakurie]

This is funny because I am literally dissecting a scene from my favorite korean drama to figure out how it was emotionally effective. This drama has a Japanese and Taiwanese version. The Taiwanese version is cute, but has zero emotional impact, the Japanese version made me cry. The Korean version gaves me キュン. All 3 had the same beats and generally the same dialogue, yet I had 3 different reactions to them. Therefore I decided to write these into comics and figure out how they failed or succeeded in different ways. So far I am learning a lot about Show and Tell. It's always better to speak less. Also actions should describe the character, conflict, and the physical action. Like picking up a knife to kill someone. Maybe the character is really skilled they swing it around between their thumbs, but there's no conflict. Maybe they don't want to pick up the knife and pick it up with two fingers and then grip it when they made the decision to kill. That seems to be more effective. No words are said either. Also I did what Marshall said not to do and focus on structure. But I have to do it for comics because there's a limited number of pages. In Japan there's this thing called 起承転結 which is a 4 act structure (intro, development, climax, twist) and I followed it exactly and was praised for it but it didn't make my stories emotionally compelling. But knowing it has secured some space to learn more things. And I know how to structure my stories in 4, 16, 24, 32 pages etc because I follow 起承転結 But that's just like priming your canvas and make the basic sketch to figure out the forms so people know its a human figure sitting down. I've learned though that no matter how much I read I never get better without practice.

[@0ia]

nice comment!

[@ArchiduquesaMA]

Me this whole episode WRITE THAT DOWN WRITE THAT DOWN

[@carlosroo5460]

One other way I think of those "plans" you said Marshall, is they are Chekhov's Gun. If in the first act you show a Gun on the wall, make sure you fire it on the 3rd act, otherwise don't put it there. The most recent I saw, I really like is that 2 characters are in a clothes' store and point out a pair a shoes, then the rest of the story they get caught up in one of the bad guys' plan, but by the end of the episode we learn through those shoes one of those 2 characters was actually the perpetrator of that incident, and severs as a cliffhanger for the next episode.

[@phoenixjames6126]

I'd still love to see you guys occasionally come back with guest star interviews.

[@SuperSunshine321]

Great episode. Length was no problem at all, super informative.

[@AMGK]

My god this is amazing, i'm gonna miss you guys so much, you know, that Simpson's episodes I've got then in my heart for ever, I remmember the "Bart got'an F" one, when I was at school it looked like that episode was telling direcly to me the story, I totally relate to Bart on that story. Just amazing, that Simpson era was mastepiece of storytelling

[@manukongolo9992]

X Well done on this episode, truly insightful. Arguably my favourite.

[@AndieArbeit]

The videos from this chanel are just pure gold, and deserve be translated to every language... or at least spanish hahaha

[@Buddhabellie]

What a treat for me to listen to a real master.... thanks Marshall...and stan.....so grateful for reality check

[@ciscoponch67]

According to Periscope: The structure of cheesecake is composed of a somewhat pastry shell with a custard-like filling and sometimes contains fruit. Despite the confusing terminology, cheesecake is by no means a cake. Also, since cheesecake isn't topped with pastry, it cannot be a pie. Cheesecake is, and forever will be, a tart.

[@esteban-iriarte-animation]

I think those are some good starting points to think about and start creating/telling stories. At least for someone as new as me in the matter. Didn't even know about the 22 Pixar rules until now. Thanks guys!

[@cory99998]

One of the most fundamental principles in engaging entertainment is the setup (contextualization that creates expectations and therefore anticipation of those expectations) and then payoff (some combination of: expected payoff, unexpected payoff, perplexing payoff / a thinker, or expected payoff 10x that goes way beyond what we thought was going to happen). Another key element is hitting emotional extremes, high dynamic range of emotional experience. Know the emotional journey you're taking the audience on and craft a journey that makes the emotions hit hard. Easier said than done of course. Using contrast helps immensely. The other thing that I've found is important that's sort of alluded to here is knowing your themes and creating your story's beats and overall identity around this abstract notion of themes. Themes are the glue of the experience that manifest deeper meaning and understanding and give us a clear enough standard to cleanly weave these themes into the work in a way that might not be obvious to the viewer, but it's one of the driving pieces affecting their experience. The way they experience the story is through the 'lens' of a certain theme. It's an abstract glue that makes it all work. The identity. Could be for a more traditional story, a youtube video, a firework show, magic act, videogame, song, anything. edit: Finished the episode, Marshall covered my seconds two points but I think the first point is still worth considering, and how that leads to the enjoyment of all things

[@bjaanderson]

So glad you all showed Tim Jacobus some love in the thumbnail.

[@heyryanisonx3141]

so hyped for this podcast!

[@cory99998]

Thanks Marshall, this was very enlightening and inspiring. I want to give one minute stories a shot

[@TitansTracks]

"The draftsmen who cried monster" I thought that thumbnail looked familiar. Good stuff! 💎 (It's from a book series called Goosebumps - the girl who cried monster)

[@StClair008]

I will miss this show. It's better than My Dinner with Andre ever was. I like the conversation, even if it veers into TMI and cringe. It's informative and revealing.

[@gizmoatwork]

Thank you for all those episodes, thoughts, references and teachings. I still have some episodes to watch in my backlog. It will be a bit different now though, knowing there won't be new ones anymore. Or maybe ? Very maybe.

[@di_anso]

I think the Kristian's crazy questions would work if the choices were between two positive things, and maybe that's the reason why it worked with the coffee debate. It kinda makes you want to participate rather than run away from the question

[@sami_yanezcarbonell]

Thanks for the wisdom and knowledge. It's very sweet.

[@porcorosso9898]

I was in the middle of diffusing a bomb but this takes priority.

[@michazytecki965]

xd

[@BlackMita]

F

[@johnny-mnemonic13]

Lol best comment today... going to have to steal it lol

[@ozzyfranks]

Great episode!! I definately need an RL Stine masterclass.. Be on the look up for the 'Art of Gosebumps' dropping at the end of November!

[@ciscoponch67]

A great PBS program, in the 70s, introduced me to illustration and storytelling: Cover to Cover is an educational program broadcast on public television in the United States and Canada from the 1960s to the 1990s. Its host, John Robbins, would introduce young readers to one or two books, from which he would then draw scenes as a passage from the book was read. Robbins would then encourage the viewer to find the book in question and read the rest of the story. The program was also known by several other titles, always following the same general format.

[@the_Googie]

You can tell Proko is kinda zoned out haha... but luckily Marshalls storytelling is so good his thoughts on storytelling were very compelling and interesting!

[@ArchiduquesaMA]

45:50 I feel like Marshall will lose his mind if he watches attack on titan, lol imagine him making sense of Eren

[@sloaneday78]

he's gonna turn into a titan himself from the shock lmaoooo

[@roymakescomics]

Eren was right.

[@itsisha9762]

it'll be interesting to see him watching anime for sure

[@lokonationstudio1691]

Love you guys! I make art while I listen to u, very good. The NFT episode was awesome, needs a follow up!! Thx🙏🙏

[@WisdomThumbs]

48:40 as I’m hearing this, I’m writing and illustrating a novel/comic hybrid about my little brother, because he died after helping me build this fictional world. He even gave permission for the character before his suicide. The book *burns* out of me as a result. BTW, he agreed with Marshall about the old “Lost in Space.”

[@martabraz8808]

I miss your podcast guys! Hoping you are well

[@xabeke.]

i’m almost avoiding new draftsmen episodes knowing that it’s ending now... i’m trying to spread out that *new episode feeling* a little bit longer😭

[@diego_segura]

Yeah, me too. It's kind of the end of an era. I filled the void with the Creative Pep Talk podcast.

[@ryanw2126]

"feel like I'm in that world", maybe the most important.

[@pablosorini4603]

There is a great exeption to the very real "rule" metioned about not writing a story from beggining to end, and least of all not knowing where it's going. That is a valid rule and applicable to almost any scenario. But just for the delight of it, let me tell you about french noir novel writer Georges Simenon. He told publicly the story of how he wrote all of the Maigret novels exactly that way. He'd work from 6 am to 6 pm, and according to him, he only knew the beginning of the story as he sat to write, and he wrote chronologicaly. His only method was to write every day, no matter what from 6 to 5, and to get "in the skin of the characters". He used to write a novel in a fortnight and has written many classics. That, however, is not the rule

[@starlord7125]

there better be a holiday christmas episode !

[@JesseMartin]

Best podcast ever

[@ayeshamahgul]

You guys are such a positive influence. Dont like the idea of no more draftsmen show

[@JohnLumgair]

Will the storytelling course be online? I couldn't fine it on Marshalls website.

[@EriksBlue]

Niel gaimen's masterclass is so much better than the r.l.stine masterclass

[@jugheadjones7196]

18:14 😂 oh Stan! My favorite duo.

[@guystudios9878]

It's come to a point now that Marshall doesn't care whether he's eating on a Podcast or not

[@seanramsey]

"What're you gonna do, end Draftsmen?!"

[@sakerberg4512]

Yes!!

[@user-uw7lu2sp5n]

😂😂😂❤❤ man this is my way of spending time

[@smiley_worth]

Lost in Space actually have a remastered version on Netflix

[@nova6253]

replayed Marshal saying "what?" like 5 times lol

[@temisck8803]

What is this song at 5:21? Its so good

[@johnny-mnemonic13]

I could have sworn this episode got released last week???

[@jdsantibanez]

Well, there is a new version of Lost in Space on Netflix.

[@ErikaCasab]

Brian McDonal is my favorite author for studying storytelling. I've often found that he is way more consice and articulate than even McKee or Syd Field.

[@estherlove5172]

Stories about growing a business are not always boring FYI 😉

[@carolineburgen]

Ayyy I love lost in space lol

[@ccharfield5635]

Is there a season 4 after this season?

[@OoziHobo]

Stan is so checked out, lol.

[@gordacapivara]

He is, isn't he. Lol. It gets annoying at times

[@nikolaikai940]

What Draftsmen episode will be your last?

[@XtianApi]

" there's a book on storytelling, I never made it through it." Hahaha lolo

[@seanhazen3042]

It’s amazing how much patience Marshall has for Stan. He’s so tedious to get through a conversation with. - as if every statement in a conversation needs to be scrutinized by a peer-reviewed scientific study. He seems to sit back and not actually contribute very much to the conversation while picking apart everything stan says. How exhausting.

[@PuppetMaster8707]

I want to be a storyteller I just find it SO difficult

[@carlosroo5460]

What happened to the comment I made for Marshall about the Channels Overly Sarcastic Productions and HelloFutureMe?

[@Flandelacasa]

Marshall, you have to watch Rick and Morty. Specifically Season 6, Episode 7: Full Meta JackRick.

[@tusharg97]

1:08:00 The Last of Us 2 storyline was exactly like this.

[@cckongg]

Hey, didn't they say we wont make this podcast anymore??

[@heyryanisonx3141]

they just said it was the last season, they still have a few episodes to release before it's finished

[@cckongg]

@@heyryanisonx3141 alrightie, thanks

[@BlackMita]

They need a hard restart.

[@Garl_Vinland]

Was really hoping for a part 2 of that sexism in art episode you had with that popular guest.

[@nialucky8773]

Most audiences hated it so I don't think this channel will ever bring that up again.

[@khalilslimi8251]

HI Marshall

[@achrafbenammar4613]

imagine Marshall sees fairy tail's story

[@nard92]

I know some things! -Charlie lol

[@ryanw2126]

Hollywood opens up to much with trying to identify with too many people. Sometimes tell a specific story without trying to make everybody else feel okay with it.

[@saii221]

56:20

[@zubairsheikh8769]

i thougt they were done with draftsmen?

[@catallaxy]

Should one follow a template? Templates are inspirational in suggesting that a story ought to have a strategic arc or a larger concept. But following a template might be dangerous if the writer uses it as a structure for his story. A template is only supposed to be a guide and not part of the content, of the story. Another problem is the alien nature of using someone else’s template. The great French science fiction writer Jules Verne followed the same template for all of his successful novels, such as 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, Journey to the Centre of the Earth and The First Men in the Moon. Verne asked the question: How do you tell the story of a leaf falling down from a tree? You could simply write: “A leaf fell down from a tree”. But this is not very interesting for the reader. Or you could write: “A gust of wind tore a leaf off of it’s branch. It was then carried to and fro by being tossed alternately from, first being lifted slightly by the air and then being pulled down again by gravity. After having swung from side to side, it finally came to rest in the grass below”. A leaf doesn’t just drop from the tree, it swings from side to side and the extremities of this sideways motion are inflection points. Verne followed the same template for all of his novels but, the template he used was of his own making. His template always started with an initiation, of a group of three men and one woman, who would eventually be persuaded to make the fantastic journey. There was usually a signal from someone who went before them. This message from “beyond” was a device to create curiosity, in the reader, to want to continue reading. The next inflection point is finding the entrance to or the threshold for the journey and getting all the necessary equipment marshalled together. The story goes through a sequence of many inflection points, before the crew finally returns to where they first began.

[@cole4917]

Eggs Milk Yoghurt Bread Tomatoes Cucumber Apples

[@atriiio4244]

how about have a podcast when you guys want to. or not even a podcast, maybe some shorts or stuff when an idea or advice come to mind

[@spintherella]

Stan…why you tryin to act so «kewl» be more enthusiastic!!

[@samforderer3075]

Damn Stan is hard to listen to at times. What’s with the devils advocate/skeptical thing? Marshall is extremely wise and dropping so much knowledge and it feels like Stan is doing everything in his power to bring the conversation to screeching hault. He is adding literally nothing to the podcast and actually making it harder to take in what Marshall is saying. Super cringe

[@Solastique]

What is this and why was this recommended?

[@TheArtofKAS]

In the first 5 minuets it's like a show that the 90 year old executive farts said cancel and now the host are just like "TO HELL WITH IT." and they start spouting the craziest obscenities about everything and everyone. I'm so behind it 😂. But also this topic is very near and dear to the heart. I do love the marketing discussion in the beginning as to how storytelling pertains to it. In The end, we are all unreliable narrators but we have to convince other people otherwise.😂😂

[@resistancepublishing]

Marshall had me hooked on learning about story structure but Stan’s clownish attitude towards story keeps pulling me out of the information

[@haloiniastrid]

Will marshall make his own podcast? I'm going to miss him talking rambling in all direction while proko tries very hard to sum up / make sense of his ramblings lol

[@thefriendlyaspie7984]

1:24:39 , that is the part were you have to shut down your logical brain, so next time drink a bear while watching it so you get the full expirience of the movie as a viewer not as an analysis.

[@jonmahashintina]

why do the examples of story elements always fall back onto movies and tv when a novel often breaks the mould due to length and imagination being able to go beyond what a movie or tv product could accomplish?

[@dezzdinn]

Ending smending….

[@maxismakingstuff]

Marshall I'm going to blow your mind here: A sealion, is not a lion.