Dialogue with a Oneness Pentecostal (Keith Parker)

Pastor Michael Burgos dialogues about the theological distinctives of Oneness Pentecostalism with Keith Parker.
visit www.mrburgos.com

[@timmyp139]

Uh oh... the Baptist had to move on from John 1, because he didn't want to get "bogged down" by the "express image"... The Greek word translated "word" in John 1 is "logos". It means "thought, plan, idea". It was in the beginning, God will save his people before He even had a people, from their sin, before they even had sin. That is the "word", the "logos", the "thought", the "plan", the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world.

[@timothyacademy1372]

Well said! I'd agree, the son couldn't exist in as a person until the time....centuries had to pass even before crucifixion would come into existence. God had to have a body in order for you to see. We are all God men, God was first in every thing....We are man and God dwells in us by the Holy Ghost. Love this truth.

[@diannarearrick2025]

I don't think you understand what "person" means. Logos isn't just something abstract. Logos means intelligence. God may be a Spirit but his intelligence is inside a personality. He has a will, reason, emotions and these characteristics doesn't exist outside of a personality. That is where they are incorporated. John 1 is very explicit that the Word (Jesus) was with God and God Himself. He has always been in the bosom (intimate union) with the Father. It is not the church fathers who thought this up... it was the Apostle John through the Holy Spirit. John was pointing out that the Christ, the Son of God was before creation because creation was made through Him. 1 John 1:1-3 tells us plainly that the eternal life was WITH the Father and that our fellowship is WITH the Father and His Son. Colossians and Hebrews uses the same language to describe this. The Father says of the Son, thy throne, Oh God, is forever........therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee. (Heb 1:8-9)... and of the Son He says, thou Lord laid the foundations of the earth..(vs 10). His Son .. through Whom (personal pronoun for a person) He made the world (vs 2). So whoever wrote Hebrews also saw the "persons" of God. Just to clarify... persons doesn't mean separate God's. One God who has persons in the Godhead. They love each other, according to John. This is a characteristic of a person's.... not some schizophrenic spirit. I think we can admit that God is too infinite for us to fully grasp. The Apostles clearly tell us there is a distinction in the Godhead even though we can't full grasp it

[@edbailey8630]

...been listening.... so frustrating listen to this Pastor's words... he's in an attacking mode instead of reasoning together... it is sad

[@edbailey8630]

IF u believe U WILL BE BAPTIZED.... simple.. if u DON'T believe u won't be BAPTIZED

[@GigiRocks1969]

I'm so grateful for your continued dialogue with Upci persons, Dr. Burgos. It takes years to fully disentangle from the Oneness Theology; and you've helped me so much. Blessings to you both! I pray, Keith continues to seek the gospel of Christ and the fullness of His grace offered. 🙏🏻

[@ForwardTalk]

No matter what one’s soreriology is, illustrations like that bus one are emotional but have no real value. One could make up a scenario that makes any Christian view seem harsh. What does the Bible teach is the only relevant question:

[@drummermajor]

@@ForwardTalk it brings to light the reality of whether or not someone believes that salvation is by grace alone or not.

[@BryanHeard]

I remember when I use to watch Michael’s videos and thought “he only debates people who aren’t well versed in Oneness theology”. Eventually you realize the reason Michael can’t find good representatives isn’t because of the representative, but what they are representing that has the problem.

[@ForwardTalk]

Keith Parker did very well.

[@keithparker5625]

Thank you, that is very kind.

[@bobjames3748]

What a lie MB starts off with, saying Oneness dont have these discussions... WHAT? We havs debated and thrashed trinitarians. Jerry Hayes you debated him and he beat you., others who debate kr have debated ,Jason Weatherly,Bill Davis, D.L Welch, Robert Sabin is David Bernard, Gordon Magee and more. ( Not all are living now).Ive had dozens of discussions like this . Seems to be trying to say we dodge Trinitarians. WRONG! THERE IS GREAT PROBLEMS BETWEEN US. I'll disagree with Parker, but not agree with MB totally, for I see he is the divergent and added words to makeup his Godhead. Not only Trinity, but phrases words, terms to support such a lie Parker is inadequate to discuss some of these points and saying MB hasnt discussed with the best people. Jerry Hayes? ( Course there may be some, I dont KNOW all the people, ). [He is a young man, but. From a Great Church,Maybe the Magnuns should be here.] Maybe MB's interpretation is wrong on Jn1:1. Yes it is! MB, who is God in John 1:1?????? Term Son denotes progeny, how was the Son Eternal with his Father and was the Son?He supposedly is a coequal member of this traid. The Son was begotten and not eternal. The Son was born and made of a woman, was the Son born and made of a woman from eternity? How did the 2nd person get this designation? Poor Holy Ghost, missing from most F-S passages , why is that? How come no dialogue EVER between these 3? I note MB uses God for God, but the Word is not thay God but the Son god . Jesus stated that the Father was the only True God, but then that nakes Jesus UNTRUE and at best a god, like he really holds! Is Jesus good? God is the only one good, Jesus is good as to being the one and only true God . The addition of "He" is a doctrinal idea inserted to try and prove the Trinity. It isnt a He, as a being or person, but the Logos , the idea, expression, thought, as in mind of God. God's Logos or Word, was of course with him, your wird is with you, your thinking, whether as thought or speech, and then latter made flesh ( wasnt flesh, wasnt a person or being). Trinitarians like to use the 'with' , as a meaning of another person. Oneness hold this was pertaining to God , and since it was his, was God. Not ankther beibg ir owrson of a godhead ( and the HS missing yet once again). Parker isnt well grounded on Mt.28:19 and how it is looked at from textual criticism , that The Hebrew oldest text didnt have Baptism or titles and Eusebius some 20(22) times never quoted it as we have it and several scholars agree. Gof hasnt ALWAYS HAD A SON! This js the lie of Trinitarians from their pagan ancient roots to paganism ,of the gentiles. Had always been Father, Jesus was that God and Father and there was no two others with him. Gid is Love because Gid is Love purely, he didnt need something to Love to be love. MB is a gentile pagan tritheist and I agree with his earliest point, there is a difference, he gets his idea from Ancient Creeds and Pagan thought and ut us godless, he is such. He is wrong in the Godhead, Jesus name baptism, Salvation, Spirt Baptism and uts application in salvation, Spiritual Gifts, Holiness inward and Outward standards. ( I came out of both Catholicism about age 16-17 and age 19 from Baptist/non Denominational neo Baptist churches. MB is a reformer, but reformed from what, Mother, the Mystery Babylon the Great. He is in one of if the Harlot daughter works and never was in the real church.

[@ReformedRookie]

David Bernard will NOT debate Dr. James White and has had a 20 year standing offer too do so

[@bobjames3748]

@@ReformedRookie , Burgos is a minister of a small church, Bernard has had many a debates and is not scared of Burgos. You apparently don't know he is General Supt. Of the UPCI, which he is constantly on the road, in Urshan School of Theology, there is men he has debated no different than Burgos. He has many more concerns to meet a junior member of the Trinity Cult. He has debated White, Cook, and several others and quite nicely. You haven't the foggiest , that he has more important fish to fry, he meets with members of other Church organizations, both Oneness and Trinitarians. His books are in print and he does broadcasts regularly. Maybe you should read some, I doubt you have any, at the most what 1?

[@bobjames3748]

@@ReformedRookie He did debate White! White is a false God teacher and Tritheist and Bernard proved that. All you people are godless 3 god believers.

[@bobjames3748]

@@ReformedRookie Im gonna cAll you out for lying sir, Bernard and White had several debates and you are misleading people and need to apologize for such blatant lying!! Google Bernard and James White debates, do some research before you open your mouth or type with them fingers .

[@keithparker5625]

I may have not answered everything perfectly, and I never stated that I did, or even would. But I stand by what I said about Matthew 28:19, and the the end of the book of Mark. I didn't deny the scripture. And furthermore, David Bernard and I agree, as I stated in the discussion, that the common reading of Matthew 28:19 is not a threat in the slightest to Oneness theology or doctrine. Questioning the cannon of scripture however is in my view a very dangerous proposition and anyone even considering to do so should proceed with the utmost of caution.

[@walterrobertson3265]

Absolutely. Yes, THE Son of Man sitting on the throne is the Firstborn of all creation, the Logos expression, the precursory image of the invisible Father made visible but then actualized in the incarnation as the title, “Son of God” the only begotten… keep in mind that the precursory image is the image that the angels in heaven saw and worshiped. God always knew what he would become to qualify as the kinsman Redeemer of us humans. Thus, the word became flesh. The Logos became humanity. I believe the scripture is clear that it’s not the father that became flesh and it’s not the second person of the Trinity that became flesh, but rather this veiled expression known as the Logos became flesh. This expression is what is mutable. God is not mutable, but how he chooses to manifest himself is mutable. Just food for thought.

[@keithparker5625]

@@walterrobertson3265 well said.

[@mikesessa1735]

Thanks for this conversation - having spent over 20 years in the UPC before finally leaving, I found it interesting and am grateful that people are open to dialogue. I came to a point where I was disillusioned - I knew there was something wrong with the teaching but I didn't know what was right. I'm not sure that I trusted anyone or any church at that point but, similar to Dr. Burgos, the only thing I knew was that I had God's word and I could trust that. I prayed that God would help me set aside whatever preconceptions I had and that God would show me something in his word. Also, similarly to Dr. Burgos, I can remember the evening, years ago, when I was reading Romans 4 and it was as though someone drew back the curtains and light was just cast onto God's word. Seeing that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness changed everything, Things started to fall into place and all of scripture started to make sense - not trying force ideas about Acts 2:38 into my understanding of the rest of scripture. How do we have peace with God: Romans 5:1 Since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. It was as though for years I had been reading scripture by a dim candlelight - my understanding darkened by traditions and false presuppositions. Thank God for teaching to the church reminding us of the gospel and that we can have peace with God not by our works or efforts but by trusting in the life and work of Christ.

[@bobjames3748]

@@mikesessa1735 Well you got fooled by that bowl of pottage, you sold your birthright Trinitarian church is a murdering church, a lying church. The false salvation of the Reformers ,is not the Biblical Salvation. Would like for you to tell me who was saved by following the Baptist neo Baptist doctrine. It isn't in the Book of Acts, the birth of the church. Burgos is like a guy getting on a theological taxi, he gets on and off at his chosing. When it suits him he accepts Father's, when they go against his false Salvational ideas, he dumps them. Fact the early church believed in baptism in the Salvational plan. Reformers like him are liars. He denies water baptism, because he doesn't follow the Spiritual act and obedience of the word.

[@bobjames3748]

@@mikesessa1735 , what Mike teaches is not scriptural, and isn't found in the 2nd century, and not until the 4th century developed as he believes. Which means he has about 300 yrs of not being tied to anything Christian. Monarchians were the Original Orthodoxy.

[@mikesessa1735]

@@bobjames3748 sorry early church fathers were trinitarian. The UPC Oneness view simply cannot be reconciled with patristic writings or the NT.

[@bobjames3748]

​@@mikesessa1735 Think that reply holds water? Tell me who in the 2nd century taught Trinitarianism? We know it isn't in the Bible and that you folks made it up, the term Trinity, the words, phrases, terms you use to support the fictitious ideas are not biblical and are made up. I will state here and now, you won't find a single soul teaching what is taught today. Tell me, you are the enlightened one, do you know the difference in the double process vs the single process view of the godhead? Why was your doctrine developed and formulated over centuries and mine was taught and I can show my Monarchian Oneness brethren and you can't your Trinitarian Tritheist fellows as the Trinitarians took till 381 a d. To formalize what you are now teaching. I can reconcile my Oneness faith to the apostles and Bible, something you can't do, what you accuse me of. You deny JESUS is the Supreme Deity, you make him a junior deity, like JW's! You use the same Momon method of explaining your doctrine ,in that you make up something that ain't there. As they did the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price. Which early church Father, I'm not talking 3rd and 4rh century Trinity heretics, who is the men you run to in the 2nd century? Mine are Ignatius, Clement, Hermas, Bishops of Rome till 222 a.d., Ireneaus Noetus, Praxeas,Sabellius, Epigonus, Cleomenes

[@mikesessa1735]

@@bobjames3748 I’ve read Bernard’s book Oneness and Trinity 100-300ad. Heard the arguments. Again I spent over 20 years in the UPC. Not going to sit here and pound out citations to try and convince you. Your remarks seem to imply that you may not understand trinitarian doctrine. I think everyone should spend time reading outside of their tradition. By the way my original comment was simply on justification by faith and the blessing that understanding has brought into my life. Not looking to debate you or anyone else in KZbin comments on what the church has historically taught with respect to Oneness vs Trinity. Maybe Burgos would be open to a discussion with you via zoom or whatever.

[@timmyp139]

1:12 Simply put, he that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved[ baptism being the substance of the belief]. He that believeth not [subsequently will not be baptized] shall be damned.

[@keithparker5625]

That's a good point.

[@timothyacademy1372]

I agree...baptism(action) is also a fruit of repentance, a belief in the death, burial, and resurrection is faith, faith without works is dead...

[@timothyacademy1372]

Baptism is the belief in action!

[@TheHonorofKings-BroParker]

Thanks for taking the time to have me on your channel and have this discussion.

[@joshmckenzie1767]

I think I remember you. Did your mom do sign language?

[@keithparker5625]

​@@joshmckenzie1767 no. My mother never learned sign language

[@timothyacademy1372]

God isn't a person...God is a spirit.

[@bobjames3748]

@@timothyacademy1372 Trinies make up something they worship called the Trinity, might as well be saying Bulknarck the Magnificent!! They say persons and it isn t in the scriptures, then they made it a requirement for salvation. And if you rejected it, you were beheaded, drowned, tortured and property taken. That is fact! I will state here and now, all these Trinies would be stating the very same for us to silence us and Burgos leading the way.

[@timothyacademy1372]

@@bobjames3748 Yes, Trinity (trinitarianism) was adopted well after the first century church. True apostolic doctrine began to be dismantled by mere clay men, humanity. It's sad so many are blind to that. It's good to know that God said his truth would go into every generation. So thankful for the Lord shining his light upon those who believe.

[@diannarearrick2025]

I don't think you understand what "person" means. Logos isn't just something abstract. Logos means intelligence. God may be a Spirit but his intelligence is inside a personality. He has a will, reason, emotions and these characteristics doesn't exist outside of a personality. That is where they are incorporated. John 1 is very explicit that the Word (Jesus) was with God and God Himself. He has always been in the bosom (intimate union) with the Father. It is not the church fathers who thought this up... it was the Apostle John through the Holy Spirit. John was pointing out that the Christ, the Son of God was before creation because creation was made through Him. 1 John 1:1-3 tells us plainly that the eternal life was WITH the Father and that our fellowship is WITH the Father and His Son. Colossians and Hebrews uses the same language to describe this. The Father says of the Son, thy throne, Oh God, is forever........therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee. (Heb 1:8-9)... and of the Son He says, thou Lord laid the foundations of the earth..(vs 10). His Son .. through Whom (personal pronoun for a person) He made the world (vs 2). So whoever wrote Hebrews also saw the "persons" of God. Just to clarify... persons doesn't mean separate God's. One God who has persons in the Godhead. They love each other, according to John. This is a characteristic of a person's.... not some schizophrenic spirit. I think we can admit that God is too infinite for us to fully grasp. The Apostles clearly tell us there is a distinction in the Godhead even though we can't full grasp it. In your mind a "person" must only have a physical body? The only difference between the eternal Word and Jesus is the addition of flesh.... otherwise. HE STILL EXISTED ETERNALLY and praise God otherwise, Jesus would not qualify to save us if he was only a son in the flesh. John 1:2... He (personal pronoun that shows a contrast of person) was in the beginning with God. Jesus existed before John the Baptist (vs 15) according to John. They always refer Jesus as the Son of God. Even the role of the Spirit. He is considered a person because he proceeded from both the Father and Son, can be grieved, and is our Helper. He came not to glorify Himself, but to glorify the Son.

[@BethValdovinos]

Thanks to you both for the discussion. Keith, I commend you for being humble enough to say you don’t know. I’d like to encourage you to please commit to re-reading the Bible particularly the New Testament removing any “filters” from the upci that you have previously learned. Carefully examine line by line, verse by verse, and chapter by chapter what it says. Then do an honest study of church history. Look at how new the Pentecostal and particularly upci doctrines are when compared to the last 2000 years of church history. A religious group that claims they have the fullness of truth must be able to historically back that up. The Word of God stands on its own and it’s ok and necessary to do an honest assessment of our beliefs to make sure they line up accurately and historically with scripture.

[@bobjames3748]

@@BethValdovinos , that is something you can't do. But we can show our doctrine, Oneness Monarchian view, Jesus name baptism , full Salvational plan, and our Holiness teachings . We can show the History you can't, men in the Bible, men like Ignatius the Bishop of Antioch and Clement of Rome a Bishop, men like the line of Bishops up to 222 a.d. Praxeas, Noetus, Sabellius, Epigonus, Cleomenes. BS the false Triad/Trinity church. You pretend you know or studied it, you haven't I am quite sure.

[@bobjames3748]

, so you ready for your Lesson ! Apostolic Oneness Pentecostals the modern Oneness have been called many names k we 2000 yrs, because we were persecuted, murdered, silenced by Trinitarians. We have been called after names of leaders, by our distinctives like immersed, Enthusiasts, Apostolic or Apostolians, Muncerians, Cathari, Anabaptists, Albigensians and Jesus Name, Jesus Only and many others through the centuries. The modern movement is a Restorationist movement and not a reformationist movement, we are going back to, 1st century and your church trying to reform a godless idea. If you had bothered to actually look at History and not try and correct us, you would see that Ignatius who was executed was considered a MONARCHIAN . Virginia Corwin in her book St IGNATIUS and Christianity in Antioch, said if one thing be said of Ignatius, he must be considered to be MONARCHIAN. That is then prior to his death in 107 a.d. So many Trinitarian supposed scholars say we didn't start till Sabellius, which is a lie. Monarchians were also called specifically Modalist Monarchians, but that was written about us, not that we came up with that. If you read Ignatius middle recension, you would find it had no Trinitarian leaning, the same with 1st Clement ( 2nd Clement most likely not written by him). So then J.N.D. Kelly says that Zephyrinus and Callistus were holding the conservative thought that antedated the Apologists ( Justin, Athenagoras ,Theophilus) and they [Zeph. And Call.] ,were Monarchians. These were Monarchians that were holding the Bishopric of Rome late 2nd Into early 3rd century. History Christian Doctrines. Pg 125. Adolph Harnack in History of Dogma counted 4 successive Bishops that were Monarchians Eleutherus, Victor, Zephyrinus and Callistus from 171 a d. To 222 a.d. Where was the Trinitarians? Let me make this clear to you! There wasn't any, your kind hadn't even coined the word, and this in 2nd century held subordinationalism believing either the Son was the 2nd god , deuteros Theos or subordinate, not co- equal to the Father. Tertullian who invented the word Trinitas first ca 210 a d. 180 yrs after Christ stated in Against Praxeas III that the MAJORITY OF BELIEVERS were startled at the dispensation of the three in one, in that their very rule of Faith withdraws them from the world's plurality of gods to the one only true God. They said he was a preacher of 2 and 3 gods and that they held the Monarchy. See you can sit there and tell us ,what we should do, but I am quite sure you haven't studied anywhere what we have to find out that we were the True Orthodoxy and you got your Doctrines from pagan philosophers ( whether Christian or not) and that we held the same ideas then, as we do today, that you follow 3 god! Origen a supposed great Father, was excommunicated and he stated the great multitude of believers believed in Jesus Christ alone as their God ( that was us, he held the logos idealogy). Let me ask you, who or what is God in John 1:1 So you believe Jesus is the Supreme Deity, or a 2nd person of three making up a deity. Jesus stated the Father was the only true God, what would that make Jesus in Jn. 17:3? The untrue god? Were you baptized in titles or in the name of Jesus as the Bible shows the Apostles actually did baptize people in. You likely follow a false reformationist salvation, denying Jesus words on baptism in Mt 28:19 & Peters in Acts 10:48. That enough to prove to you, we know what we worship, salvation is of the Jews and not the gentile mind.

[@walterrobertson3265]

I’m oneness but not of UPCI or Apostolic oneness. But it is strange that Keith didn’t know how to share the gospel message to someone who was on their death bed. Keith seems very young in the faith. Maybe this shows where SOME oneness need to broaden their understanding of scripture. There’s more than the focus on the Trinity/Oneness and Baptism by water followed by speaking in tongues as a sign/evidence…..I love my Oneness brothers and sisters. But it is a fact that we need to bolster a more systematic theology in order to defend the faith.

[@keithparker5625]

It was strange. Have you ever been in a discussion being recorded like this? I will say it is harder than it looks.

[@TheHonorofKings-BroParker]

I now realize this was a silly question for me to ask as I'm checking out some of your content now. I appreciate your thoughts and feedback, even if it stings a bit. It is strange that you think that I answered that question poorly. I answered it multiple times and kept being pressed on it. I played along with the hypothetical question and tried to answer what I would do with possibly one minute to interact. I don't like hypotheticals because they are created to be traps. As such they always put a person in a box by making assumptions. God exceeds assumptions. Beyond what I said, what would you say if asked this hypothetical?

[@bobjames3748]

@@walterrobertson3265 , to try to get Oneness to say there's a way to be saved other than the Bible way they try to use the thief on the cross or use Constantine in his deathbed confession where he lived a horrible life and murdered people and then supposedly got saved just before the end. I would say deathbed confessions are about as rare as the man on the moon. This is almost like being a priest in the Catholic church and absolving someone of their sins at the very last moment. Someone without getting baptized with the Holy Ghost or getting baptized in water or repenting or not repenting that'll be up to God that is not our salvation of plan though that is given in the book of Acts and show several times.

[@bobjames3748]

@@walterrobertson3265 , if oness and not Apostolic or upci is it Unitarian that denies that Jesus is God?

[@bobjames3748]

@@keithparker5625 I remember brother when Jason Weatherly said how tough it was when he had his early debates. Almost always won the defensive from the very beginning almost all question seem to be directed towards us. We are almost always the first to wind up speaking in a debate or discussion. Some 35 years plus it used to be debates were centered around Matthew 28:19 in Genesis 1:26 but the trinitarians have given up those grounds except for the naive people they know that those do not win positions and Matthew 28:19 they now or saying it's by a authority only, or no name is necessary.

[@EarthenVessel22]

Good job, Keith was honest on the Scriptures he was not aware or challenged on before. We need more like him

[@keithparker5625]

Thanks.

[@jazzjazz8415]

Its good to see Burgos again, I grew up Oneness and he made me curious of the Trinity. I've been on a journey the last couple of years.

[@bobjames3748]

@@jazzjazz8415 Does it include HOLINESS? didn't think so . I know it doesn't include truth on the godhead or Salvational plan.

[@bobjames3748]

@@jazzjazz8415 So you get to find out more about the Trinity, maybe see how they were such a murdering vile religion, first Catholics, read Fixes book of Martyrs and then Martyrs Mirror for the murdering Protestant. I don't find Monarchians murdering them, you seem to be a rather naive person, who hasn't likely studied much when so called Oneness, probably was nothing more than a Sunday school kid. Tell me who or what is God in John 1:1 in the passage. How was it Jesus said the Father was the only true God in John 17:3, that would make the 2nd person in the Trinity an untrue god. Is Jesus the Supreme Deity in what you are in now, because he was the Supreme Deity in Oneness. I left Catholic and Baptist/non Denominational churches. They are false and not teaching the BIBLE TRUTH ABOUT GID, SALVATION, BAPTISM, SPIRIT BAPTISM, HOLIN ESS.

[@melp135]

The discussion regarding the Apostles' Creed exposed the limited knowledge and arrogance that certain Oneness Pentecostals possess about church history. The critique of the Apostles' Creed by Parker was, at best, ill-informed.

[@bobjames3748]

I guess you are not well informed that the Apostles Creed, not written by any Apostle isnt scripture or worth a lick, it was a man made substitute for the Bible truth, a Monotheist Monarchian One God, Jesus name Pentecostal written book. I can see you are rather ignorant of history, jumping to the Apostles Creed as your defense. I'll challenge you right now, who was your supposed "Trinitarian" 2nd century fellows you count? I will say right now, you ain't got one, are clueless about any as such. I'll give you Monarchians Ignatius and Clement, all the Bishops of Rome till 222 a.d. Peter was one of us Jesus name baptized, One God In Christ, Spirit filled Pentecostal, Holiness preachers. Whatever you are, he wasn't!! We know that Hermas, Noetus, Praxeas, Sabellius, Epigonus, Cleomenes were Monarchians, also called later by Adolph Harnack to desribe then as Modalists for the first time. So go at it, see if you can name and then prove it or disprove me.

[@melp135]

@@bobjames3748 You have a gross misunderstanding of the purpose and function of the Apostle’s Creed. The purpose of the creed is to summarize the Christian faith, define what is doctrinally true and to correct doctrinal error. Your arguments against the Apostle’s Creed are straw men. Christians who affirm the Apostles Creed do not suppose it was written by the Apostles. That’s absurd. Nor do they view the creed as a substitute for scripture. Equally absurd. It was the plain reading of scripture that led me out of Oneness Pentecostalism. The Apostle’s Creed simply states what the Bible clearly teaches.

[@drummermajor]

Nearly got through the whole thing. Mr Parker was very respectable, and I commend him for that. I hope and pray that he takes some time to consider what was said.

[@bobjames3748]

What wasn't said, where anyone was baptized the false Baptist way, false Baptist salvation in the book or 2nd century or any century prior to when they started the fake Baptist religion, where no Holiness is lived by Baptists, where Spiritless Spirit baptism was taught and lived and where the Trinity was one time taught by Jews in OT.Jesus, Apostles or Disciples in the New Testament. Burgis does have the Anton Levey look down, needs to lose his head hair to fit in with Satan's ex leader in earth.

[@keithparker5625]

I hope you'll come back and watch the last 10 or 15 minutes. And thank you for the kind words and prayers. I pray God gives back to you pressed down and shaken together.

[@drummermajor]

@@keithparker5625 I watched the entirety shortly after I wrote that. Just tried to squeeze in bits and pieces during quiet moments at work. I enjoyed it. I think there were some moments where different presuppositions from your Oneness tradition (tradition not being used in a negative sense), made it difficult for you to properly understand where Michael was coming from. But, like I said, your overall demeanor was very commendable, especially considering how these conversations can usually go. Hope all is well.

[@keithparker5625]

@@drummermajor thank you. It looks like there was one or two places where I may not have understood what he was asking until we had moved on, and I hate that. This was the first time I've done something like this and it was a bit challenging. I would like to address all the things that I wish I had been able to articulate more clearly. Currently considering if it would be worthwhile to address those things. I think in a few cases I really need to.

[@RT-gv6us]

First of all let me give kudos to Keith Parker for conducting himself in a respectful and polite manner. Michael also exercised good conduct. My background is in the Oneness Pentecostal tradition for many years, but too many Biblical passages regarding Oneness just don't exegete well. Also, the Oneness gospel application has problems when compared against the whole testimony of scripture. Too much proof texting with just a single verse without consideration to context or Biblical harmonization with other passages. But, lots of precious Oneness people that have treated my wife an I so well over the decades. I have noting but love for the people.

[@bobjames3748]

Hey tell me how millions of murders exegetes well? They forced their religion of Monarchians, Unitarians, Socinians,Arians, JEWS, Non believers. I don't think you have studied much of the 2nd century, that is the bane for the Trinitarians like Catholics and course Protestantism is just 16th century heresy, not found in any earlier century.

[@bobjames3748]

Gospel application? Hmmm, the pre Church salvation period. Where is our problem there? If you mean Biblical Salvation, then the trinitarians like MB, have the real problem, no one was saved in the N.T. church as he teaches. You don't run to an Epistle written 30-40 yrs latter and get the Salvational and for the church, anymore than the Law and OT period and try to count the thief on the cross as Christian.

[@jeremyhasty3267]

Bottom line is the prayers of Jesus give the Oneness position fits….John 17 is a back breaker for the oneness position. I’m former third generation UPCI and it bothered me when I was part of the UPCI.

[@bobjames3748]

@@jeremyhasty3267 You must not have been much of a Oneness, or not telling the truth. John 17:3 Gives the Trinitarians the hard time ,they must admit Jesus is a untrue god as they deny Jesus is the Father as to his Deity as the Spirit! Maybe you should see David Bernard explain vs 5, in his video on Jn 17:5. You people who follow the three god view are in total antichrist error. And we're a murdering lot as bad as Communists and Socialists. Maybe you should read Foxes Book of Martyrs and Martyrs Mirror.

[@keithparker5625]

To say the prayers of Jesus give Oneness believers fits is to construct a strawman. It is actually the opposite. Our belief in the dual nature of Christ is actually a great explanation of Christ's prayers to the Father; IE the Spirit. What it confounds is actually the doctrine of the trinity. God doesn't pray to God. Man prays to God. "Coequal" beings don't do that.k

[@bobjames3748]

@@keithparker5625 Parker they can't explain why they have no one in the second century teaching what they teach today instead they believed in two gods and subordinationalism. If you have read the post Apostolic fathers of Ignatius you can see he is not a trinitarian he definitely is a monarchy in Virginia Corwin in her book Saint Ignatius in Christianity and Antioch stated that he must be stated to be a Monarchian.

[@jeremyhasty3267]

@@keithparker5625 Keith, natures do not have communication with each other so to say that jesus 2 natures are speaking to each is not a viable position….same thing with the Baptism of Jesus. The problem is referring to in John 17 is verse 5: “And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.” ‭‭John‬ ‭17‬:‭5‬ ‭ESV‬‬ Jesus here claims to have existed and shared glory with the Father before Creation. The oneness explanation is one that literally adds “in the mind of God” to this verse. This is not what the verse said. I take Jesus at his word.

[@keithparker5625]

@@jeremyhasty3267 Well however you slice it His word never says that He is three, a trinity, it never speaks of His persons or anything of the sort. So it's possible that my explanation is wrong, but there is no scriptural passage that says you are correct. Not one.

[@FaithandFoodSecrets]

This young man is doing what most oneness always do which is so disturbing. Every time they get asked a question about a scripture they don't want to answer, they ALWAYS trapeze to another book or another scripture. They can't face scripture that doesn't add to their oneness theology. You have to be taught oneness because nobody who reads the Bible for the first time would come up with Oneness on their own.

[@bobjames3748]

I did! One God and not three persons even mentioned, or a Trinity, a false name for His and even more false Ancient Creed Paganistic teaching from Greek Platonic thought. See you get your doctrine the exact same way a Mormon got the book of Mormon, you use terms and phrases.and words to prop up what isn't a Biblical word and think that is gonna fly with God. Jews rejected the idea, Jesus a Jew never 'taught' the doctrine (personally I don't believe you people know what taught means). The Pearl of Great Price was gotten the same way as you people got triune godhead, triune baptism, by just making it up, throwing it against a wall and hoping it would stick! IT WONT.

[@FaithandFoodSecrets]

I said you have to be taught Oneness, not One God. There is a big difference. Oneness evolved around 1913 from a man having his own personal revelation at a camp meeting in California. You have to be taught Oneness because it's not in the Bible.

[@bobjames3748]

@@FaithandFoodSecrets , you are not understanding our doctrine of Oneness the One God in Christ doctrine and Jesus as that God and Jesus name Baptism isn't something that started in 1913, it was restored going back to the Biblical original doctrine. The HG Baptism was restored Jan.1 1901, Baptism In 1913 at the Arroyo Camp and 1914 Monarchian one God. We are Monarchians, we hold the Bible, not the man made Trinity idealogy which it's roots is Ancient Creed Paganism ,gentile thought and tritheism. You are rather ignorant, that our people went back to the original Doctrines and left as men and women had done so repeatedly. The Original Orthodoxy Monarchianism,of Jesus as the one person of God the Father. The Jesus name baptism in the plan of salvation, as Spirit Baptism with speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance and Spiritual Gifts and Holiness. Jesus is my supreme Deity, yours is a 3 god triad, made up terms, a 3rd century heresy, unknown to Jesus, Apostles or Disciples. Your religion is from a murdering horse, godless people without Holiness standards and total fake Salvational teaching

[@bobjames3748]

@@FaithandFoodSecrets Oneness- One God, that is easily seen and believed, say 3 persons and you get a triad of God's, not seen. Show me the passage for Trinity, 3 persons, persons, Distinct persons, seperate persons, god the son, god the HG,eternal son, eternally begotten son, eternally generated son, Son of god, god. You believe in the 2 fathers of Jesus the Son, because you have 3 persons

[@FaithandFoodSecrets]

You don't even know me. I never said I was Trinity. Did I say I was Trinity Sir ? I've come from being Oneness for over 25 yrs so I know what I'm talking about. So you question that Jesus is the Son of God ? Jesus is still the Son of God in heaven right now. Would you like scripture for it Sir ? Jesus said after he ascended to Heaven that he has a Father and a God ! Did Jesus claim that Sir ? Paul stated that the Son made the World's . Is that in scripture Sir ? Did Jesus tell Mary after he rose from the dead that he was going to ascend to his Father and his God ?

[@diannarearrick2025]

1 John 1:3-4 is a parallel to John 1:1 the Word was/is eternal who was with the Father and then manifested to us. Our fellowship is with the Father and His Son. Also, John 17. Jesus said he shared glory with the Father before the world began. Just because the physical body of Jesus didn't exist, the Son still existed in the Spiritual realm.

[@bobjames3748]

@@diannarearrick2025 , no the Son didn't exist before there was a Son, the Word or Logos of God was with, because it was his thought, idea, expression before it was made flesh, before it was slain from the foundation of the world. The idea of Father person, Son person and mostly a missing or truant person in a godhead is three god. Oneness don't hold to that. John 1:1 is not God with God, it was God's Logos with him, his Word not just the spoken, but prior to speaking, the thought of idea. That Word ( his plan) was made flesh in time, not eternity, the Son is not spoken as eternal. Besides Oneness believing that, even Trinitarians deny this like Adam Clarke, Walter Martin E Calvin Beisner agreed with Martin on this on TV( though his book said differently)[ so he lied publicly] and I believe Hodge rejected eternal Son doctrine. I have ask, Trinitarians won't answer WHO OR WHAT IS GOD IN JOHN 1:1?

[@diannarearrick2025]

Apparently you don't understand what is meant by person. A person has intelligence, emotion, a will, and ability to make moral judgements, it is not impersonal. That is what is meant by God being a person. It has nothing to do with a physical body. Christ is eternal. He was with (alongside) the Father. Hebrews states His throne is eternal. He always was. He has no beginning and no ending. Scripture states that the Father and Son love each other. It states that the Holy Spirit, the Helper, can be grieved. God is alot more complex than what our finite minds can understand. The Godhead is One in Deity however there is a hierarchy among them. Each has certain functions. John argues that Jesus, the Word or Logos, is eternal and is God. Further, all creation came about by and through Jesus, who is presented as the source of life. Amazingly, this Logos came and lived among us. So He is clearly more than just a thought. In 1 John, we are told that the Word is with the Father. Take that over to Hebrews, God, the Father, speaks about His Son. We know it wasn't the flesh that made the world yet it was through the Son that the world was made. But of the Son, He says, Your throne, Oh God, is forever. Of the Son He says, you laid the foundations of the world... the Father sent the Son into the world to save it. Sent implies prior existence. All members of the Godhead were active together, working as one in unity, sharing the same glory, power, essence, co-equal, co-eternal.

[@bobjames3748]

@@diannarearrick2025 Why we reject your godless doctrine of three god, it spews of the old ancient gentile pagan Greek mindset. You say such things as Jesus alongside, that is clearly two beings. Here is the truth, that you are blinded to. GOD WAS IN CHRIST RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not themselves! GOD WAS MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH, not A part of God was the 2nd person. I came out of that tritheism, Tertullian the daddy of your Trinity who coined that figment of his imagination ca 210 a.d. a d almost 200 yrs after Christ stayed in AGAINST PRAXEAS III that they said back then he was a preacher of 2 and 3 gods . We Monarchians didn't believe you back then and certainly don't today. Tell me, how come your Trinity doctrine had to be DEVELOPED? It wasn't taught( I know you people cannot figure out what Teaching such doctrine, you think implication is the same, it isn't even close.) Your doctrine was developed, not by Jews, JESUS, Apostles, Disciples DID NOT TEACH THAT MALARKEY EVEN ONCE. It was developed, formulated and I can tell you this, those people in the 2nd century, your supposed "Fathers" did not hold what you people are shoveling out today and they were believers in 2 god and subordinationalism and called the double process or vertical view of the godhead as F S HS, You Trinitarians came up with a totally different doctrine from them a single process or the Horizontal view of F,S,HS a coequal and co-eternal godhead. The original, isn't the current. You have been duped. When I get back home, I'll take a look at this to see if anything else needs a reply.

[@jeremyhasty3267]

@@diannarearrick2025well said….all of this bothered me greatly when I was in tHe UPCI and the oneness explanations have to do gymnastic twisting of the scriptures to fit their doctrine. Of course, the ultimate response by oneness folks is that you can’t see their truth unless you have been baptized in jesus name and received the Holy Ghost which is speaking in tongues…..I checked all those boxes by age 16. The oneness plan of salvation cannot save and it teaches you can experience all that and still lose your salvation. This is because it’s man centered and not based on the sovereign promises of God. Jesus says that of all the Father gives him. He will lose NONE of them. I’ve never ever heard that verse mentioned from a UPCi pulpit and the reason why not is obvious.

[@diannarearrick2025]

@jeremyhasty3267 in the video, it wasn't explained what you tell someone who is about to die how to be saved. Jesus saves. He is the Savior and as the Scriptures tell us in 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4, we are saved by the grace of God believing in the work of Christ and trusting in His resurrection. It's not by our works otherwise we would boast only in those. We find that today, don't we? Boasting in our baptism that we were "baptized right while those other so-called "Christians" were baptized wrong and will not be saved". How incredibly sad to get it so wrong and refuse to believe the actual truth. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the glory of God alone. Our only boast should be in Christ and Him crucified!

[@Brandon-yb8py]

I think when you hit Isaiah 48 it may have hit home more than anything else did with him. Butttt it very quickly turned into story time and then rerouted into Romans. I think he needed to stay on Isaiah there and continue to the rest of the relevant passages in Isaiah. Well done Dr B

[@bobjames3748]

@@Brandon-yb8py Burgos, doesn't follow truth. Not on the godhead, not on salvation, not on Baptism, not in Spirit baptism and he does t believe in Holiness and endurance. His is a false Gospel, never taught his way .

[@bobjames3748]

@@Brandon-yb8py , 1 Cor.2:14 " but the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned." Burgos, has not the Spirit as the vast majority of Trinitarians false doctrines lead them away from His, Truth, Spiritual things. False Salvational ideas, False Godhead, false baptism, false Spirit baptism, false understanding and no Spiritual Gifts, no Holiness. Matter of fact most Trinitarians don't know they are from a religious system of hate, murder and are blinded as a Jew to see ,until they truly repent . And leave the vain philosophy of the Catholic religion they garnered much of what they have.

[@Brandon-yb8py]

@@bobjames3748 what a tremendously ignorant response lol. You must be trolling….

[@bobjames3748]

@@Brandon-yb8py I've not seen a thing here that supports your godless 3 god view. Today I just converted three women in Bible study, I e a AoG, one a Baptist and one a Christian Church and we baptized one and two got the HG . You people are teaching lies and godless doctrine. Tertullian your Daddy of the False Trinity so e 180 years after Christ Death, a believer in 2 or 3 gods as the true Saint Monarchians said back then , taught error and was in the minority, it took the murdering of us Monarchians aka Oneness back then, for you and your ilk to come into power. You are wrong on the Godhead, SALVATION! Water baptismal formula and necessity, wrong on Spirit baptism, wrong on Gifts of the Spirit and dead wrong on Holiness which is nonexistent in your churches as is the Spirit and Truth!!

[@bobjames3748]

@@Brandon-yb8py , FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH OF FLORA, now The Sanctuary of Flora Indiana, as they sold us their church for 1$ and it is a UPCI church,Pastored by Lee Stephens was voted by the members to give us the Church, because he Interimed Pastored last year and had been holding Saturday Bible studies and we have seen three of those people Saved! And they are bringing more tommorow to our other work in Delphi. Baptist Churches in Africa have been leaving wholesale Pastor, Church and members to Apostolic Jesus Name Oneness Pentecostalism, the TRUE CHURCH!! ALJC MISSIONS Director MATTHEW BALL has reported Baptist churches in Africa have come into the truth, as they should, over the Name of JESUS!

[@By_grace_through_faith24]

I enjoyed this discussion. I pray Mr. Parker will ponder the areas that were a struggle to answer and think about why. Think about what it means to say “this is what we believe” about salvation and then say “only God can judge”. UPCers accuse justification by faith adherents of easy believism but we don’t spout this “only God can judge” stuff. We stand firmly on what the Word says. Mr. Parker, please think about how you believe Old Testament saints were saved and reread Romans thoroughly. They were not saved by animal sacrifices. This is one of the main points that led me out of the UPCI and back TO the Baptist faith. Justification by faith is embedded from Genesis to Revelation. Please don’t get bogged down on 3 persons but instead think about how making Jesus His own Father contradicts the entire Word of God and forces people to make inferences throughout the entire New Testament vs considering the plain reading of the text. 🙏

[@bobjames3748]

@@By_grace_through_faith24 since you are so well verses tell me the passage of grace and faith alone! You people pretend the Bible says that and don't know you have added to the word of God and with that, condemnation.

[@keithparker5625]

Actually the entire idea of things like "grace alone through faith alone", and certainly of Calvinism is completely "only God can judge"

[@By_grace_through_faith24]

⁠@@bobjames3748just pick one of the epistles and you’ll find plenty of verses. No sincere Christian believes we shouldn’t go onto good works or throw out the book of James but we are NOT saved by works. This is the “other gospel” in Galatians that Paul says will cause them to be accursed. Added to the word? Lol that would be the UPC for sure, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men and making salvation harder to obtain than the Old Covenant. Modern day Pharisees.

[@bobjames3748]

@@By_grace_through_faith24 Ok, have you used the phrase Grace alone or faith alone like most Baptists and Reformationist? You may even have done it in a previous text post. So I will go to James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." You just got your pants pulled down and spanked, because that is exactly what you people of the false church say and call Jesus a liar and telling us to follow works in Matt 28:18-19. Because you do not know the spiritual application of water and the Spirit in the doctrines of baptism, the Obedience to Christ, his plan and like 1 Pet 3:21 not the washing by the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God. You think it not important, it is done when you merely want to. That is not the case in Acts, the Apostles knew it was part of the plan. Peter stated the Plan, fulfilling what Christ taught of being born again of water and the Spirit, of Repentance and Remission of Sins, of the name used ( the name Jesus)[ which was the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit], of the being buried in water since the old man was dead. Jesus commanded baptism, Peter Commanded it, The Eunuch asked immediately "see here is water, what sith hinder me to be baptized". That The Phillipian Jailor was baptized immediately at midnight and not wait 2 weeks for grandma to come up from Jericho or wherever. Paul found men who followed John and that baptism they had was sufficient, so baptism meant more than the fickle BAPTISTS hold. Men like Burgos and those posting against God's true Saints the Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal Christians!

[@bobjames3748]

@@keithparker5625 James 2:24

[@ClareBoyd-f8c]

Thomas Scott Miller John Harris Ronald

[@bobjames3748]

This is to say what?

[@reason_together_3in1]

If all Oneness believers actually read and understood the Holy Scriptures, they'd no longer be Oneness

[@bobjames3748]

@@reason_together_3in1 This is most naive, you apparently have never been to a Oneness Church, don't realize what we teach and what you people made up saying it was Christian. It ain't! I'm 69 soon to be 70, have ministered 48 of the 49 yrs, preached over 1300 messages In several churches over several states. I have put more time studying than Burgis and have a Library of over 2000 books in print and about 4000 more on DVD and internet. I have found the Trinitarians as the corrupt and fake church people, the unholy, the unsaved and ungrateful. You are Catholics! Baptized in its baptism, following it's triad godhead, the same as all the pagans did, but with different names using F,S,HS, as it's triad of three. I'm sure you are clueless to the Ancient Creed Paganistic deities . The Judaic -Christian God never was three persons , if you wish to be ignorant of the fact that God is a sole numeric One, and not the 3 pieces of antiChrist filth made up by gentile Paganists and pawned off as Christian. Jesus is the one true God, the Lord God Almighty, if you think there is two other persons, then you never understood he fulfills all roles, modes ways of expression. The Holy One, the I AM, the YHWH and shares nothing with another. YOU DO NOT BELIEVE JESUS IS THE SUPREME DEITY, that's means you call him a liar! And rape from him ,his complete Deity

[@timmyp139]

Actually, that's the very reason I am still a Oneness Pentecostal.

[@bobjames3748]

@@timmyp139 Me too! ,I was in service had gotten out of Catholicism because I saw scriptures for the first time, we didn't have a a Bible as far as I knew at home, but when I went into service I got one and read it and there was no Catholicism in that book. I then went to Baptist and non denom churches and couldn't find one person being saved they way they did and the I went to one service and went to the altar, confessed sin to Jesus and repented and got the HG baptism with tongues and then baptized in Jesus name 49 yrs ago at 20.

[@bobjames3748]

@@reason_together_3in1 ,just so you know 'reason ', half of Oneness churches new members are ex Trinitarians, my church just baptized a Assemblies of God woman a week ago. We took over the Flora Baptist Church for 1$ as the members voted to give our church their church and 5-7 members have been attending our Bible studies. I came out of Trinitarianism, because of studying

[@jesseC0806]

This is the very reason I rejected my prior framework… Roman Catholicism… intellectual honesty is a pre-requisite.

[@drummermajor]

1:02:27 Did he just basically suggest if you die in that situation, that it means God, for whatever reason, decided that your faith wasn't genuine enough and won't save you?

[@drummermajor]

I had a conversation with a UPCI pastor who straight up said, "In that situation, it's too late. You had your whole life to get baptized"

[@keithparker5625]

No. Please go back and listen to what I said.

[@bobjames3748]

@@drummermajor Ah the Constantine Salvational plan! I would say it is most rare these death bed confessions, and highly unlikely that anyone goes through such. Trinitarians always like to look for the way out of their godless walk of life . They either like the Thief on the cross way or the death bed confession, not following real Bible truth, of Grace through faith, confession of sins and repentance, water baptized in the only saving name burning the old man and Spirit baptism ( whether it comes first or second) and then a enduring life ( unlike the sinful life of the Baptist false way).

[@drummermajor]

@@bobjames3748 again, demonstrating your lack of understanding.

[@bobjames3748]

@@drummermajor You haven't studied the Bible, any history, don't know where your false religion came from and where Monotheist Monarchians did. You think ,because you have been lied to by Satan and the false MYSTERY BABYLON AND HER HARLOT children. I came out of what you are in and thank God, that I am not Holden to the triad religion, the Trinity farce.

[@revbray]

Classic case of oneness shifting the goal posts. When you talk about scripture they want to talk doctrine. And the. When you switch to talk about doctrine they want to talk scripture. It just happened.

[@bobjames3748]

Doctrine is scripture.

[@revbray]

@@bobjames3748 sure is but Jesus is not the Father. John14:28. Agree or disagree?

[@adamcarmichaelsr.9488]

@@bobjames3748no, doctrine is the clear teaching found in Scripture. A distinction that needs to be seen.

[@bobjames3748]

​@@revbray,the only true God is the Father!, JN 17:3, Jesus is God, Jesus is also the Son of God, the man Christ. There is only one God, you have 3 god, not a Supreme God. In John 14: Jesus said when you know and See him, you have known and seen the Father, why are you asking for another? In Rev 22:1,3-4 Jesus is shown as God and the Lamb at the same time, not a god, not a 2nd of something, but as God and the Lamb( God dwelling in his tabernacle the Christ man as the Lamb. Notice the singular personal pronouns "his" his servants, his face, his name! How many do you believe you are going to see in heaven? 3? 1? Jesus is the Lord God Almighty! Rev.4:8, he knows no other God/gods beside him, he is the I AM! Not we are. You have a problem with you godhead view with Jn 14:28, the Father was greater than the 2nd person, the son in your made up non biblical Trinity. You don't know Jesus, you don't see him as the child/son and Might God and everlasting Father from ISA 9:6. Because you and Burgis were never Christians, you are Protestant's from Mother Rome, the Mystery Babylon the Great, the mother of you Harlots!

[@bobjames3748]

​@@adamcarmichaelsr.9488, show me sir, where did anyone teach the Trinity? It is doctrine, yet not taught k e tine, not alluded to. You follow a damnable lie of Paganistic teaching of gentile mind and reject ONE TRUE GOD, JESUS! Why must have use a variety of words to make up such a doctrine called that? They ain't in the book. You add to the word lies and ideas, no different than a Mormon with a additional book of Mormon and the equally false Pearl of Great Price false book, with false terms like PERSONS, THREE PERSONS, FIRST PERSON, SECOND PERSON, THIRD PERSON, god the Son, gid the Holy Spirit, eternal Son, eternally begotten son, eternally generated son, three people's, three men, three individuals, seperate and distinct persons . You and most likely Burgis don't know the History of your Trinitarian churches, the doctrine was developed and formulated over 3 centuries, you can't find your doctrines taught in the Bible( 1st century church), 2nd century or 3 rd century period.

[@drummermajor]

Re: 57:50 I get sincerely perplexed when Oneness Pentecostals appeal to Jesus' teaching as part of the Old Covenant when trying to refute justification by faith alone. As if the Old Covenant was somehow easier than the new covenant.

[@bobjames3748]

@@drummermajor , name me one person who followed the false pattern of salvation espoused by SBC, Baptists, Reformers, there is no such thing. You people made up that lie trying to reform from mother Rome, but were never the Church, because she isnt. Acts 2:1-4, 38-39 shows the beginning of the church, not a person came forward, not a person read or stated some sinners prayer, not one shook a hand to be saved.lies, the whole Baptist religion in a nutshell. Go on give me the famous Epistle quote of salvation way back in the book and to a already existing church and add to the scriptures! Im Talking in the scriptures, not in your home church, where people shuffle forward and pretend to get saved. You don't follow the Bible at all .

[@bobjames3748]

I'm not here to defend Parker, you shouldn't be here to defend false Burgos either. Parker needs more study and needs to quit trying to get along with the perverted Tritheists. I disagree with him on we have more in common idea. We are so far apart and you people are murdering horses in the last and would love to get rid of us today, the same way.

[@drummermajor]

I share the same soteriological view as Mr Burgos. You really don't understand our position at all if you think that we are advocates for the sinners prayer, punch ticket salvation.

[@bobjames3748]

@@drummermajor ,I know you are as baptists, maybe you have added foot washing, but it is wicked doctrines and lies you people teach. I don't know if you get one thing right. Tell me can you find anyone teaching what you taught in Bible or 2nd or 3rd century? You people throw out a big deal of you reformed, but your mother was never the Church. If she was, you would be following her and not man made doctrines. I know this, you deny the one True God, Jesus name baptism, Holiness ( my do you people hate that now, it isn t John R.Rice's Baptist Church). I came out of Baptist churches I had attended in Gary,In and in Ayer,Mass. I had been in Catholic churches as well before my teens. You have not been saved over the book of Acts and so you are a foreign religion to Christianity.

[@bobjames3748]

@@drummermajor ,sir can you show me this scripture by faith alone? If not stop using such man made doctrine.