Did anyone else have mixed feelings about Shogun?

Shogun (2024) is like a Japanese historical drama told from a western point of view. It is based on a novel by James Clavell and stars Hiroyuki Sanada as Lord Yoshii Toranaga , Cosmo Jarvis as John Blackthorne, and Anna Sawai as Toda Mariko.

[@MtiuliBichi]

"Why is this is white dude even here" Without Blackthorne the show would have ended in episode one with the execution of all the Toranagas.

[@crazycat4211]

historically though, tokugawa wouldn't even be in that situation, he was already a pretty influential dude amongst the other daimyos, Ishida was the one struggling for allies even with the help of the toyotomi shogunate.

[@MtiuliBichi]

@@crazycat4211 I know i know

[@Benji567891]

Jon is there because Japans interactions with Europeans was actually a hugely influential part of Japanese history at the time and up untill the modern era, he's a great lense to see that part of history through, and how Europeans and Japanese people viewed each other.

[@Max_Kraft]

The dream of Blackthorne as an old dying man in England is essential because Blackthorne sees a future in it where he mourn Marikos death forever - its strongly connected with the burial at sea scene showing that he can in fact let go of the past, he can live with the pain not cultivating it and ultimately he chose to live with his destiny, to live and die in Japan (like the real english navigator William Adams, who was the model for Blackthorne) and is ready for new tasks. He also realized that he no longer had much in common with the other English and Dutch people. Adams btw was made a Samurai and Hatamoto with fiefdom by Shogun Tokugawa and he married a japanese Samurai daughter and had two children with her. Mariko is based on a real christian Samurai woman too

[@JessInDreams7]

I think it was beautiful conclusion that he ended up staying in Japan. It really shows how the time he spent there and the people he met changed his view on many things. He seems to have grown to accept the culture and found his place.

[@Sir_Alex]

This show is poetry, the writing is outstanding and I loved it so much.

[@ToxicGamer86454]

Except that it’s 100% fiction. Nothing about how the Japanese were portrayed is authentic. Except maybe the savage nature of Toranaga and how he sacrificed everyone closest to him in order to reach his goal of being Shogun. True narcissist he was.

[@luket3149]

@@ToxicGamer86454 I'd say he was a prime example of an opportunist not a narcissist.

[@ToxicGamer86454]

@@luket3149 An opportunist doesn’t sacrifice the lives of their closest friends.

[@Sir_Alex]

@@ToxicGamer86454 The right nickname for your reply.

[@ToxicGamer86454]

@@Sir_Alex But I’m not wrong.

[@EdgardoJCruz-dk5kv]

John Blackthone himself seems out of place, but he was actually based upon a historical figure English sailor/merchant William Adams, who did go to Japan and end up in involved with the Shogunate later on. There are differences of course like for instance he and Mariko's real life counterpart never met due her dying before he even came to Japan, but he did end up staying and finding a wife in Japan though. Even started a family too.

[@JessInDreams7]

I also heard that in the original book he's more of the focus, and that in this new show they tried to develop more of the other characters in the story and perhaps because of that, Blackthorne had less development and screen time which shifted the focus away from him, making him feel a bit out of place.

[@EdgardoJCruz-dk5kv]

​@@JessInDreams7 Funny I heard the 80's show adaptation gave him a larger focus, but at the cost of the other characters. Leading to the "white savior trope". Well that and it really did not age well. So it seems the new modern adaptation is a better middle ground at least.

[@JessInDreams7]

@@EdgardoJCruz-dk5kv Yea, I think getting that balance is always a challenge. I'm thinking maybe if they had more episodes or split the story into more seasons, that would've given them more time to develop all the characters they wanted to highlight.

[@bewilderedbeest]

@@JessInDreams7 I've read the book and I've seen both adaptations. The 2024 miniseries is more faithful to the book. The makers of the 1980 miniseries made a decision to focus exclusively on Blackthorne and make him the center of the story, leaving out many scenes with only Japanese characters, and not developing the Japanese characters as well as Blackthorne. In the 1980 miniseries, we see only the "first heart" of most Japanese characters, a little bit of Mariko's "second heart" after she becomes intimate with Blackthorne, and a peek into Toranaga's "third heart" at the very end of the story. In the book, we get to see all three hearts of all the major Japanese characters, because the author shows us what they are thinking as well as what they are saying in public and in private. By taking the reader deeper into Japanese culture, the book shattered many stereotypes, while the 1980 miniseries, by presenting the Japanese characters very superficially, actually perpetuated stereotypes.

[@jhchooo]

This is not just another Japanese Period drama.... subject matter is Japanese but produced in the West. It was fascinating to watch. Japanese historical productions are very different and filmaking, sets, customs, editing, music are very different. The story itself is a perspective piece of someone getting firehosed by an alien culture. This is probably the best TV show since Better Call Saul.

[@JessInDreams7]

Yea, I understand that this is produced in the West, so the film style would be very different from a Japanese production. But I was thinking more along the lines of the story itself being told partially through a Japanese lens, with accurate and authentic depictions of the Japanese cultural elements being similar to something one would expect out of a Japanese period drama. I think it's something pretty rare to see come out of the West, so definitely props to the people who put so much time and heart into this show.

[@jhchooo]

@@JessInDreams7 but it’s not a story through Japanese lens… it’s a Western perspective. Not everything has to be accurate like an impressionist painting or a dream. Literally the last episode was called Dream of a Dream where Blackthorn was recalling what happened as a dream in his deathbed.

[@JessInDreams7]

@@jhchooo I think Hiroyuki Sanada himself, who was one of the producers, stated in an interview that they wanted to include the perspective through the Japanese lens along with the Western one. So while the entire story may not have been through the Japanese lens, it seems like the parts that were are being enjoyed and praised by many. The fact that it does have multiple viewpoints makes it more interesting and unique imo. And I agree that It's true not everything has to be accurate to be good or praiseworthy, but looks like this is a case where the accuracy is overall being lauded? Also the end where Blackthorne is on his deathbed is a dream itself. He never went back to England and actually stayed in Japan.

[@udon6031]

I think Toronaga was portrayed not as good, but as cool. He's cool and smart and our POV is from his side too, so that can trick us into seeing him as good. But at the end it was shown that he's as cruel as any warlord. Killing villagers just to get a reaction out of John, and his ambition to become Shogun. One thing i'd have wished to be different is Ishido and his allies. It just felt like they only had the advantage because they had more people on their side. And they didn't make smart moves. While it was still entertaining to see Toronaga completely outsmart his opponents, i think if the opponens were smart themselves, then Toronaga defeating them would feel better.

[@JessInDreams7]

Oh yes, he was so cool and impressive in so many ways. I think casting Hiroyuki Sanada to play him made it impossible not to be on his side, despite the morally cruel things he did to reach his goals. I totally agree that it would've been interesting if they made Ishido more of a threat. He almost came off as cartoonishly evil at times, and was too obvious with his moves. It definitely would've made Toranaga seem even more impressive if he defeated a more worthy opponent and also add more tension to the show.

[@jameshoward-white2288]

The fish-out-of-water approach is a commonly used troupe, so it doesn't set this apart. It's a device that allows exposition to be explained to us via the character (in this case Blackthorn). The Last Samurai, Marco Polo (not Japan), Karate Kid 2 all do this. It works the other way too, with foreigners coming to the west. The Rush Hour movie series, Coming to America, Borat. It's usually a comedy in the reverse order, which makes sense. Blackthorn is comical to the Japanese.

[@JessInDreams7]

That's true, I think the West does have many examples of this kind of troupe. I just couldn't really recall any super popular ones told in the East. I probably haven't explored enough Asian shows, but I think the combination of the East being pretty closed off to the rest of the world for large portions of history and sort of staying in their own bubble, it's a more rare occurrence to have these kinds of experiences.

[@lowdefinition4250]

While that might be true, it's hard to not notice that the vast majority of media set in Asia from a western studio uses, or rather I should say, abuses this trope. Try to think of major media made by a western studio that doesn't find some excuse to include a western main character in Asia. Fish-out-of-water is definitely a useful trope, but if when Asia is concerned 90% of western media uses that trope, it becomes uncomfortable. I hate to say this, but let's be honest here. If Blackthorne or an equivalent foreigner weren't the main character, the studio wouldn't make it fearing that it wouldn't sell. Is that actually true? I don't know - I only really have games to compare it to and Ghost of Tsushima sold very well, but it also took a gigantic risk doing what it did.

[@jameshoward-white2288]

@lowdefinition4250 It's an American production company catering to Western audiences, so it probably wouldn't have been made without the Western character. Inevitably, movie companies want to make money, and setting a show in Japan is arguably risky enough. Besides being a device for exposition, the clashing of cultures creates a natural tension and drama. That's what we want. Western cinema uses this troupe within Western movies consistently. The character from the city visiting the wild west, a cop's first day in the job, the new kid in a gangster movie, the teenager starting at a new school, in a new town. All of these characters benefit from having rules explained to them and tension created from immersing into a new culture.

[@lowdefinition4250]

@@jameshoward-white2288 " The character from the city visiting the wild west, a cop's first day in the job, the new kid in a gangster movie, the teenager starting at a new school, in a new town" Right, and none of these characters have to be a foreigner. The vast majority of Western media set in Asia abuses the fish out of water trope to self insert one of their own protagonists in as a main character. Do you really not see how this makes a lot of people uncomfortable?

[@jameshoward-white2288]

@lowdefinition4250 The character from the city is not a cowboy. The rookie is not a cop. The kid is not a gangster, and the foreigner is not Japanese. If the western protagonist becomes some kind of white savior, then it's uncomfortable. Again, It's made for Western audiences. I live in Vietnam, and no one I've spoken to has heard of it. I also work/play football with a Japanese team. None of them had heard of the show. I've been recommending it. I understand that's a small sample size. Tbh those I've spoken to are happy there is a show set in Japan. No one, as yes, cares about the western character. It's a good show. It promotes Japanese culture. It's full of great, interesting Japanese characters. It doesn't make me as uncomfortable as faux outage for likes.

[@Screwy17]

You should've seen the 1980 Shogun miniseries: that was the story from the perspective of Blackthorne. No subs, and all told from his point of view. 2024 Shogun is predominantly the story of the Japanese warlords themselves. Closer to the book, which also details what they are thinking. And of course, "why is he even here?" Because the novel draws from what actually happened during the Sengoku Jidai. The Taiko wás Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Toronaga wás Tokugawa Ieyasu, Mariko Toda wás Akechi Tama (Hosokawa Gracia), Blackthorne was William Adams, ... And all of it pretty much happened as depicted in the series. Gracia and Adams never met in real life, so the romance is an embelishment. But the major story is basically history as it happened. It was Adams who advised Tokugawa on the Portuguese, causing Tokugawa to decide to lock up Japan for the next 200 years, to prevent foreign influence.

[@uSnatchios]

I think people get baited by the title. Despite it being called "Shogun", what Clavell actually wrote was a pretty small character drama, centered around Mariko as the real main character. Toranaga's quest to become shogun was just the backdrop and framing from the story.

[@JessInDreams7]

I actually hadn't thought of that, but that's a good point! The title makes it sound like Toranaga was going to be the main focus.

[@bewilderedbeest]

Yes, I agree that Mariko is the central character in the book, and her story forms the central plot line.

[@duncan-xg9sh]

This is absolute nonsense. First, to call a book that's over 600 pages long "small" is an insult to the author. It's a huge canvas of historically important events at a critical point in Japanese history played out with a large cast of characters. Second, it's utterly ridiculous to say that it's centred around Mariko. Blackthorne is clearly the central protagonist and there are large sections of the book where she doesn't feature at all. Third, to argue that Toranaga's quest to become shogun is just a backdrop is simply absurd. It's an absolutely central theme of the novel and provides the narrative structure around which almost all of the significant events take place. It's hard to believe you've actually read the book.

[@uSnatchios]

@@duncan-xg9sh Clavell wanted Mariko to be the main character, only his publishers were against it and wanted more Blackthorne for a wider western appeal. I've read every book Clavell wrote 2-3 times. Also its 1200 pages. And it's length doesn't really determine the kind of story Clavell wanted to tell.

[@duncan-xg9sh]

@@uSnatchios It seems pointless arguing about the novel you claim Clavell "wanted", providing no evidence to support this claim, rather than the novel as published. It's not even a matter for debate: Blackthorne is the main protagonist of the novel. You having read all of Clavell's novels multiple times does not alter this fact.

[@vrushalidhongade5725]

1. Toranaga was honorable, sure. But he was definitely grey. He used people as pawns, he recruits people based on their loyalties to him, and doesn't hesitate to commit crimes to reach his ultimate goal, which is uniting all of Japan under one Shogunate. 2. Blackthorne was a pawn the entire time but had enough mental faculties to survive + had Mariko saving his ass 90% of the time. 3. Mariko - badass amazing awesome genius QUEEN. 4. Think of this show of a real life Game of Thrones. Political games and intrigue.

[@antonhallergren588]

It's historical fiction. Of course it is not the absolute masterpiece that is the book but it's about as close to a perfect adaptation as you will get. Read the book years ago and I'm a history nerd. This is similair to Vinland saga or Vagabond (japanese mangas about legendary warriors in history). Historical fiction is more a means of exploring something than learning actual histroy. Shogun is about Mariko restoring her familys honor. It would be really hard or impossible to understand something like honor told in a perfectly historically accurate way. Note that understand does not mean know of. Shogun (book but the show too) is probably top 3 samurai anything with Vagabond and shigurui death frenzy.

[@vietluu4313]

Ooooh, i'm glad that you decide to review this show Jess, it's my favorite :D. Love the bit about dragons in the end, so random lol

[@JessInDreams7]

Good to hear you like the show so much! Haha, idk why I suddenly thought about dragons, but apparently it's really the thing that stands out to me in GOT 🤣

[@yaboityler2617]

I dont understand why everyone thinks Mariko is the main protagonist of the novel. The story is told 90% from Blackthornes POV, and the events all circle around the brilliant power plays of Toranaga. Mariko has her own story, but the book is literally called Shogun. It is the story of Toranaga, from a westerner's perspective.

[@antonhallergren588]

It is the story of her restoring her honor. She is as much the protagonist as darth vader is in star wars which is the story of darth vader. Shogun is told from Johns perspective just as star wars is mostly told from Lukes in the OT.

[@yaboityler2617]

@antonhallergren588 Mariko gets introduced about 1/3 through the book. So in my opinion on your analogy, that's like saying Lando is the main protagonist of Star Wars.

[@antonhallergren588]

@@yaboityler2617 by "as much the protagonist as darth vader is." I mean, she is the character that is fully realised from a-z, and her story is more or less what makes Shogun work. For it to be John's or Toragawas story it would need to extend way past the confines of either the novel or the show. It is the story of the final events Marikos being the most important that lead to toragawas eventual rise to shogun told through John's eyes. Star wars is a story about how the galaxy is saved and the dark side, and the emperor is defeated and told through Luke's eyes. The main charcater and driving force of the story working is still Mariko and Darth vader. Saying it would be toragawa would be like saying the emperor is the main charcater of star wars.

[@yaboityler2617]

@@antonhallergren588 Luke is the main character of star wars

[@antonhallergren588]

@@yaboityler2617 nope. It is the story of Darth Vader.

[@flybeep1661]

"this whole story is kinda like from his perspective".....ok that's not correct at all. It was correct for the original Shogun miniseries from the 1980s but it's pretty obvious this isn't the case for this new series. Blackthorner is just one of the main characters, the other being Mariko and Toranaga. Pretty hard to miss actually so it's weird you think the whole of Shogun is from Blackthorne's perspective, it's totally not.

[@Mark-rb4xs]

Hey Jess, have you watched Arcane? I'm really interested in hearing what your thoughts are on it.

[@JessInDreams7]

Oh I haven't see that 🤔 It's sounds interesting though! Will probably check it out sometime

[@anarchclown]

At least part of the reason Clavell used englishmen as main characters in his books is pretty much that people weren't anywhere near as familiar with east asian culture and history back when he wrote his books. So having a character experience everything for the first time along with a reader was a good idea. Nowdays Japan is a lot more known to the audience than it was back in the seventies so we don't need William Adams to be the tool for us to understand the Japanese as much, which makes him seem a bit more out of place, even though he was a historical figure. He is the way into the story of how much the Portugese influenced the sengoku jiddai though so he's still quite useful from a storytelling perspective. Also at least the way i interpret it, he becomes more "good" because of how cruel he finds civil war Japan. He's a pirate and a soldier before this, but his early experiences with crewmates being boiled etc makes him take a moral standpoint since he clearly can't resist physically or socially. Then after a while that moral standpoint isn't just a facade but a part of his actual personality. A classic fake it till you make it kind of thing.

[@JessInDreams7]

That's a good point! I hadn't thought of where this story fits in timeline-wise, but it makes sense that Blackthorne's outsider perspective was more relevant back in the day. I think for audiences who are still unfamiliar with Japanese culture of the feudal times, he's still a relatable lens to view things through.

[@anarchclown]

@@JessInDreams7 Yeah. Also Clavell was literally an englishman who had at one point been an outsider to the cultures he was writing about. He was in a japanese warcamp for part of the second world war for example. So I'm guessing parts of the cruelty of the japanese in the beginning of the story before he starts understanding the society might be based on experiences with a culture that was still affected by bushido at that time. That's just me speculating though.

[@thomassavage-hx6ux]

he was in it because he was there in real life. The real man William Adams who Blackthorn is based on never left japan, the future shogun forbade him from leaving. He helped Japan build European style ships and married and raised children with a Japanese woman. Their is a battle that happened after the show ended that is very famous in Japanese history. The real person Mariko is based on actually dies in that fire. I believe the romance between them was fake though.

[@JessInDreams7]

Hmm yea, I think if we look at it from the historical events this story was based off of, Blackthorne's presence makes perfect sense. I was more judging purely based on this as a TV show of a fictional story, and due to the heavy focus on the Japanese political elements, other more prominent characters, and the sidelining of Blackthorne for portions of the show (plus Toranaga even admitting at the end that Blackthorne wasn't crucial to his plans), it felt like they could've omitted him and it still would've been an awesome tale. Almost like he's more of a "nice to have" but not an essential requirement.

[@thomassavage-hx6ux]

@@JessInDreams7 well that is true, if you do not take into account the chaos his potentiality made in the minds of the other Japanese politicians. He was used by Toranaga to confuse and distract, and Torenaga's used that optional usage of that chaos specifically to make decisions. you can like chess for chess and arguably not watch certain pieces but they must all be considered. especially by your opponents. Toranaga did not mean Blackthorn was not useful he meant he did not need to use him, he allowed others to for him. But, yes you are right if the story was not true we could have thrown him out and the show would have been still pretty good.

[@antonhallergren588]

S1-4 GOT and legend of the galactic heroes still stand as the best political series as I agree they are better at being grey.

[@sliceofheaven3026]

I do think that the show started to switch its perspective too much from John Blackthorne. I think in a way his perspective should have been maintained througouth the series. The Mariko viewpoint seems to have been a decision made by the showrunners. I also am not sure if Japanese women at the time would have been actually allowed to learn fighting and fight like Mariko did in one of the episodes. It did look cool but I kinda wonder how accurate it was from a historical viewpoint. Especially the aristocratic women in Japan were pretty tightly controlled in what was appropiate and what was not appropiate. I mean there are old photographs from Japan where old women still have deformed feet because small feet size was seen as highly desirable aspect in a women belonging to nobility.

[@JessInDreams7]

That was actually a thought I had too when I saw Mariko fight, because I didn't know women back during that time also trained in combat? And yea, I think if the entire story was kept as from Blackthorne's point of view, his presence would'n't have been questioned. I also understand that they wanted to include the Japanese viewpoint, so that shift made the focus of the story more difficult to balance.

[@MitraKesava]

I agree that Blackthorne felt like an unnecessary piece at times and I honestly love Mariko's journey the most out of all the characters but the problem is that of the source material in my opinion. I really wish that the dumptruck of money they poured into this thing would have gone to a jidaigeki that actually covered the REAL history of this period without name changes and a white man insert but alas it would never have been greenlit without the name recognition associated with the book and previous miniseries. The boomers remember this thing from when they were kids and those things mean something to the people that fund this stuff.

[@JessInDreams7]

Yea, I think it's a result of them trying to include more of Japanese perspective and characters, which ended up being really good, and then because Blackthorne was less central he felt like an unnecessary insert. If it wasn't tied to the original work, I can also see a really good show coming from this type of story and time period in Japan. But as you mentioned, the money to fund it is a challenge.

[@MitraKesava]

@@JessInDreams7 Yeah I personally loved a lot of the aspects of the production and it was cool to see this big of a budget put into a show with a large Japanese cast and heavy emphasis on subtitles. Just wish it wasn't Clavell's novel tbh lol.

[@JohnAdams-1]

Read the book,

[@marjansimunic8558]

It's weird, because the whole point of the book is Blackthorne and his life, here it's like the B story as opposed to A story. Ee learn more about what actually happened in Politics in this show, in original things just kind of happened, but the new version - it didn't grip as much as the original where Blackthorne and Mariko were front and center. This was basically Romeo and Juliet in a new setting and this time they went with clan wars of the two families instead what the main point really was. Still good - just, somehow lacking.

[@JessInDreams7]

Ah yes, this is probably exactly why I felt that Blackthorne was unnecessary. I'm not familiar with the original book or the historical events that this story was based on, but just by watching this show alone, it can seem like he can be omitted and the show would've still been a satisfying experience. I think because they decided to focus on the Japanese political elements, Blackthorne's character arc felt a bit incomplete and unessential. His romance with Mariko was good in the beginning, but there was a large portion in the middle of the show where the relationship was strained and never fully addressed.

[@jossecoupe446]

Really never got a 'white saviour' vibe from Blackthorn, more of a 'please Jesus Christ I will literally do anything y'all want if it means I don't get katana'd'. I suppose you could critique his presence by virtue of its crutchlike function in both appealing to a Western audience and helping them cultivate an understanding of this largely unknown period of history by having someone to relate to, but the I don't really think there is anything necessarily wrong with adopting such a framing device. I suppose they overinflated Blackthorne's relevance sometimes (which, if not done adeptly, can akwardly make explicit his status as a plot device lol), but overal this and the inclusion of Blackthorn overal was very well done and I think ought to be lauded, if anything. One aspect that I personally adored about the show that would've been voided in the case of Blackthorne's exclusion is the beautifully presented dichotomy of 'familiar' and 'unfamiliar'. The main reason I particularly liked it was said dichotomy is because it isn't one-sidedly presented; the Japanese are just as befuddled by the strange hoarse British bloke as he is of them. Sailors in this time can easily be comsidered the astronauts of their day, but no matter how neat or profound that sounds, the show in a far more nuanced way makes Blackthorn both the astronaut _and_ the (invading) alien lol.

[@JessInDreams7]

Yea, I don't think Blackthorne would fit the typical white savior role, and the show runners seemed to have really wanted to avoid that. There were points where I thought he was almost too lucky in the sense that he just happened to have the skill they needed to get out of a serious situation (like the boat in the storm scene and the earthquake landslide that buried Toranaga), but overall, he wasn't essential enough to really argue that he was crucial to the final outcome of the story. But I also agree that his presence provided a unique outsider lens to view feudal Japan from, and it adds that extra layer of intriguing interaction between a foreigner and the locals.

[@mgrzx3367]

I have a paperback copy of the book. It's a little dusty but all the pages are there. Want it? Nice show very interesting. Subbed.

[@bewilderedbeest]

You're right about Blackthorne being a disposable character unnecessary to the story. The real-life person he his based on, William Adams, is no more that a footnote in Japanese history. The novel was written by a British author for a Western audience, and Blackthorne was supposed to be the "hook" to draw in Western readers, the one relatable character in a world that would be unfamiliar to most readers. For that reason, James Clavell expanded Blackthorne's role in the story, although he was certainly not the main character in the novel (as he was in the 1980 miniseries). The novel is primarily about Mariko, and how she restores honor to her family's name.

[@pseudonymousbeing987]

That's very very stupid in my opinion. How can he be disposable when the Western audience needs to understand what is happening on the screen? Without a person to ask questions and receive exposition answers, people cannot understand. This is how all stories work. I find this opinion absurd and uneducated on storytelling.

[@ToxicGamer86454]

The TV series said that he was disposable and unnecessary so I’m not sure what you’re on about. Toranaga said exactly that at the end and that he only kept him around for entertainment. You ignore all the other inaccuracies except for the white guy that was in it 😂 The portrayal of the Japanese as honorable is laughable. Everyone trying to delete themself for honor is laughable. There is no historical evidence to support this. The only thing historically accurate is Toranaga’s greed and willingness to sacrifice everyone closest to him in order to achieve his ambitions. That aspect of the movie describes 90% or Japanese history.

[@duncan-xg9sh]

The TV series is based on a historical novel, and it's the prerogative of the author to focus on whichever characters he wants and make them the main protagonists regardless of how trivial the historical roles of the real people on which they are based. Blackthorne is the main character in the novel, not Mariko, and it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Clavell wrote the book for western audiences so it's only natural he made a western character the leading role. Something I've not seen discussed is the fact that Clavell was a POW in Changi Jail during WW2. The Japanese were notoriously cruel and brutal towards prisoners, and I believe that reseraching and writing Shogun may gave been an attempt by Clavell to understand the behaviour of his Japanese captors.

[@duncan-xg9sh]

To add, I would urge anybody who enjoyed the TV series to read the novel, it's infinitely better.

[@Javelineer]

Blackthorne's the main character and not disposable. Toranaga had some respect for the guy and saw something useful in him. He just didn't admit it to Yabushige. William Adams in real life also served as a foreign advisor, built western ships and went on trade missions for the Tokugawa Shogunate.. Blackthorne's not the hero of the show but he's the main character.

[@wesselm9184]

I think Toranaga keeps Blackthorne around because he's protestant, which troubles the Catholics Toranaga is being opposed by. it illuminates the Christians as just as divided and bitter as the Japanese themselves. But there are aspects of the show I also disliked, towards the end i felt the show was starting to drag. like so many shows, there's almost nothing going on until the last 3 minutes because they need a hook to get people to watch the next episode. I was quite relieved, yes relieved when Mariko died because I was getting tired of hearing her whine about how she wants to die all the time. But man if I was Blackthorne though, the moment Fuji grabbed the pistol and offered those men some "F*** around Find Out" i would have ditched Mariko right then and there.

[@JessInDreams7]

Ah yes, that's a good point and something I hadn't thought of. I totally pushed aside the Catholic and Protestant feud in mind, but it is a very important and interesting piece to this story. I think it definitely adds an extra layer to this power struggle and shows how complicated the situation was at the time. Also agree that there were points in the later half that felt a bit slow, and I sort of lost focus of what was happening. And haha yes, Fuji was awesome and emotionally stronger than I had initially expected.

[@yaboityler2617]

One thing i loved about this book, which you cant really pull off in a TV show, was how "undramatic" everything was on a surface level. Characters have to portray their thoughts in the text while hiding behind blank expressions in the story. And it takes a while for Blaclthorne, and the reader to understand what is going on because the fuedal japanese culitre was so outwardly unemotional. TV actors of course have to ham things up and emphasize their lines with expressions. Thats part of acting. But people die in the book and the japanese are said to be comepletely silent and reactionless, even if its someone they care about or love. They werent screaming "NOOOO!" and being held back by three people. Only Blackthorne breaks this mold before he learns how to hide his intents behind the rituals and culutral norms of fuedal japan.

[@JessInDreams7]

Interesting observation! I haven't read the book, so I felt that the actors in this show actually did pretty well with hiding their emotions, but I can also see it being even more effective in the book.

[@yaboityler2617]

@JessInDreams7 I'd reccomend i, even if the show spoils it. The way it's described is that in public, Toronaga doesnt move a single muscle in his face when he reacts to news, no matter how good or how bad.

[@RyanG0899]

They should have gone the more historically accurate route and shown how William Adams set his English identity aside and fully integrated into Japan, becoming a Samurai, advisor, and building ships for the shogun while setting up English and Dutch trading posts.

[@flybeep1661]

Great idea for a documentary, terrible idea for an engaging character driven show.

[@bewilderedbeest]

Toranaga isn't playing chess. He's playing Go, while everyone else is playing Shogi. Tokugawa Ieyasu, the historical model for Toranaga, was a serious Go master, and it probably contributed to his ability to see the big picture and out-strategize his rivals.

[@crazycat4211]

the only issue with shogun, there was no battle of sekigahara in it at the end. hands down would have been pretty great.

[@JessInDreams7]

Haha, yea I guess having an epic battle would've been pretty awesome too.

[@hiddenau]

What elevates Shogun above most Asian historical drama is the quality of the production. The sets, costumes, music, cinematography, acting, writing etc are a lot better than most Asian productions. Shogun’s biggest flaw is that it had too few episodes. We never really spent time with the antagonists, so they didnt felt like a real threat. The show moved through the plot too quickly so we didn’t get a sense of the passage of time, Blackthorn didn’t get the character development he needed and the romance felt forced. But despite all this I felt it was still great.

[@JessInDreams7]

Oh yea, the quality was top notch, but it did feel like there wasn't enough time to fully develop so many characters. There were points in the show where I wouldn't know who the character was because they had so little screen time, but also somehow had the feeling the character was meant to be important because they probably wouldn't include them otherwise. I think they did the best they could with the limited number of episodes though.

[@theknights5086]

John is the lens for western audiences to see feudal Japanese society through. We as the audience of primarily western demographics would be shocked to see a man commit seppuku and take his son with him, but that's a given in Japanese culture, people be committing seppuku left and right in this show, life and death are valued differently, there is cruelty and harshness but also beauty and order in Japanese society and John is our mirror in that world, equally shocked and enthralled.

[@JessInDreams7]

Hmm yea, that makes sense. I was originally thinking that even without John, we as the audience can still feel thrown off by the unfamiliar cultural norms portrayed in the show. But I guess with John being an actual character in the show, we can imagine ourselves in his shoes and almost live vicariously through him.

[@getrekkedon]

And of course coincidently, like every other samurai movie that gets huge in the west, he's the badass hunk the the girls get wet for. Every other guy is either too old or too young to be a sexual rival, and the only other badass guy of competing age was written as an asshole wife beater he tried to protect the girl from (and coincidently banged her) and submits to the white guy in the end. Whole thing is a wet dream of a white guy imagining adventure in foreign lands. Tons of implication of superiority of british nobility and superiority of culture and chivalry as if feudal europe didn't treat women like property as well.

[@quatrical]

I had mixed feelings when the announced another season lmao

[@JessInDreams7]

Haha, is there really going to be another season?

[@andyandys5356]

I think the viewers are on Toranaga's side because he was the first choice of the late leader

[@Shryce]

I absolutely hated this show and stopped watching his 2 thirds into the show becoz I couldn't stand it any more. I need to mention I watched the 80's show long time ago and loved the genuineness of that series and the conviction with which those actors back in the days portrayed this story. Where the old version has charisma and the Japanese world as a revelation as starting point the new version just shows Japan as a combative land lacks any kind of subtlety and understanding of Japanese culture. The main protagonist (Pilot) was a potato cast into the role of an actor who's supposed to bridge the gap between feudal Japan and the ever expanding Western trades interests... which he magically does.. I mean he has no skill or understanding of Japanese culture nor will or conviction to do it, but he somehow does do it succesfully. Mariko didn't convince me either in any way... it didn't seem authentic to the feudal period that she would be able to be the character she played in the new version. The combat scene when she insists on returning to Toranaga and conquers a bunch of well trained soldiers ordered to stop her finally threw me off... too unrealistic. Style over substance... pretty visuals... simplistic story... bad actors... big action moments... very low on cultural understanding I feel.

[@MattEveland-cy9yr]

I've resisted this, mostly b/c I get flashbacks to the last samurai where tom cruiser was "the last samurai" who basically taught the ignorant samurai how war works and I wanted to punch my brother for suggesting the movie to me. this is just a common trope, sticking a white guy in there, b/c they think white people won't watch "foreign" things unless there's a white guy in there to be their perspective.

[@JessInDreams7]

Haha, I don’t know how similar this show is to The Last Samurai since I haven’t seen that, but it seems like most people are saying John Blackthorne is in this show because he’s based on the historical figure William Adams who was an “important white guy” in Japan at the time and/or he’s needed to provide a lens for the western audience to look through. I guess those are valid reasons, but having a foreigner perspective within the work shouldn’t be necessary to enjoy aspects of other cultures.

[@MattEveland-cy9yr]

@@JessInDreams7 it's definitely a trope, but yeah wouldn't suggest the last samurai. probably the most insulting of the whole genre. I mean i can see how it works as a narrative device, it's basically the character to explain everything to so the audience can know. and not all are bad-- but then, last of the mohicans didn't make the white guy the last of the mohicans, lol. am curious how they portrayed the Tokugawa Ieyasu stand-in. i mostly remember him as the middle of the 3 unifiers who launched all the disastrous invasions of korea.

[@MattEveland-cy9yr]

it did encourage me to read up about it and the novel, and... I don't think i'll be reading the novel. it sounds terrible 😅 "Clavell’s Shogun novel had a problem with female characters. The author tended to reduce them to meek background props or two-dimensional sex objects obsessed with the white character’s genitalia, which Clavell describes with astonishing frequency, and by using the weirdest euphemisms, including but sadly not limited to “peerless parts.”"

[@JessInDreams7]

@@MattEveland-cy9yr I personally think Toranaga, who is the character based on Tokugawa Ieyasu, was portrayed a bit too positively in the show. I guess they also tried to show that he was not exactly good, but it seemed like it was partially justified by the culture at the time. They also made his opponents even worse, so in comparison he seemed like the better choice. Oh yea, the novel sounds like it wasn't too sensitive about certain topics. I haven't read it either, so I can't say for sure, but I did find it interesting that it's viewed so positively despite the more controversial aspects.

[@24X7CARZ]

Jess, as an Asian-American martial artist, I thought this version of _Shogun_ was virtually perfect! To start with, Toranaga is more central to this adaptation, relative to Blackthorne, than the novel or the 1980's adaptation -- which makes Toranaga more appropriately the central character of a work titled _Shogun_ . Technically, the shogun is the top samurai / busho / martial artist of feudal Japan. So it is fundamentally, in history and in the _Shogun_ story, about a Japanese martial artist. Sanada Hiiroyuki, who starred in and produced the series, explained, "This time we put more Japanese lenses to the script [. . .] Not only through blue eyes [the western perspective]." In the Japanese and other Asian martial arts, and these cultures more broadly, there's the concept of the _omote_ (what is seen or explained outwardly) vs. the _ura_ (what lies behind, within -- the true, deeper teaching, motivation, skill). Only dedicated students in traditional Japanese arts receive the ura aspects of the arts, which is akin to the concept of "inner door" students in Chinese arts. The "secret heart" and "eight-fold fence" explained and portrayed in the series exemplify these concepts. For a cinematic product conceived of and made by Hollywood, what a triumph -- and Japanese audiences have acknowledged how well this version of _Shogun_ captures cultural nuances and authenticity relative to the book, previous adaptation, and other attempts at chanbara and jidaigeki that have come out of the west. There's also a nod to the well-known literary work regarding martial strategy, _The Book of Five Rings_ , by Musashi Miyamoto. In particular, the "wind" is referenced as a metaphor multiple times in _Shogun_ 2024. In episode 10, Yabushige asks Toranaga how he is able to control the wind, and Toranaga replies that he doesn't control the wind but rather studies it. In _The Book of Five Rings_ , the "Book of the Wind" chapter is dedicated to explaining the deficiencies of other martial arts systems. Even though this book was published a few decades after the events in _Shogun_ , perhaps wind as a metaphor for the tactics and outcomes of combat had been established for some time. Interestingly, Miyamoto is said to have participated in the Battle of Sekigahara (talk about an idea for the planned _Shogun_ sequels!), which Toranaga describes to Yabushige as an event in which the samurai armies assemble but do not need to fight, because of the successful use of strategy by Toranaga, in the alternate version of history presented in this adaptation. Both Toranaga/Tokugawa and Miyamoto would've been familiar with Sun Tzu's _The Art of War_ , which states, "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting." That's why all of the western reactors and reviewers who're disappointed by the lack of a big battle in episode 10 are just completely missing the mark, unfortunately -- so yes, you're correct in assessing the big battle wasn't needed and the conclusion of the story as depicted was appropriate.

[@JessInDreams7]

Thanks for sharing your perspective and providing so many background details! I hadn't actually thought about the Shogun being the top martial artist, but it makes sense since he's the military leader and superior skills probably would've been crucial to gain the respect of his subordinates. They mentioned the importance of samurai swords several times in the show, and it all flew over my head haha 😅 I do like how they decided to portray the show through a more Japanese lens because that's what made the show really stand out. It also goes to show how the view of Japanese culture has evolved and been accepted through the years by the West. This sort of appreciation is a trend one would hope to see continue to grow positively to preserve the authenticity of these unique cultural values.

[@24X7CARZ]

@@JessInDreams7 - Yes! The 1980 _Shogun_ mini-series was amazing at the time because it was so much more authentic regarding the omote aspects of Japanese aesthetics, language, and customs than anything Hollywood had produced until that time. But the 1980 version still had caricaturistic things like over-giggly Japanese girls (the portrayal of Fuji in _Shogun_ 2024 is a welcome updated Hollywood portrayal of a demure [yet solidly multi-dimensional] Asian female character), and Blackthorne and Mariko switching from current modern English to early modern English (e.g. “how I love thee”) which comes off as a cringy attempt to make _Shogun_ like _Romeo and Juliet_ . The 2024 version, with its darker look and focus on verbal and situational metaphors is purposeful in celebrating and giving western audiences a sincere peek at the ura, while still maintaining a lot humor and amazing visuals appealing to western audiences. I just hope the newly announced additional seasons will be good. This is where Hollywood typically blows it: the sequels. As I mentioned above, Miyamoto Musashi would be a logical and exciting character to feature. They could also try to tie _Shogun_ into _Lone Wolf and Cub_ . Both Ogami Itto, the fictional main character of _LW&C_ and Miyamoto are master swordsman who lived during the time of the Toranaga/Tokugawa Shogunate.

[@tommyvergason]

Sorry baby. Don’t mess with Shogun. JFC.

[@timcliffsmith]

I think you could sum up this review with just: "I wasn't that into it because it didn't have dragons." So...hmmm...

[@thepgawesomechannel5930]

Never did I think you would compare Shogun to Twilight and somehow fit so well. I try very hard to forget the Twilight movies, but they are melded into my psyche. Great review though, made excellent points. I assumed you’d think the show was too political, but seems it was just right for you? I was in the opposite camp, it wasn’t political enough.

[@JessInDreams7]

Hahaha, after I said it I was like, did I really just mention Shogun and Twilight in the same sentence? 😂 Yea, I'm usually not the biggest fan of political drama, but because I went in expecting it to be very political and a lot of well received historical Asian dramas tend to go that route, I was probably just better prepared.

[@thepgawesomechannel5930]

@@JessInDreams7 I can see that, it was definitely not completely like a Japanese game of thrones since it did focus too much on Toranaga. Though I can give you another recommendation that’s less political and more psychological. The Sympathizer is actually pretty good, I thought I was going to be a war drama which is what the first episode makes it look like but it’s so much more. It only 5 episodes in and every episode is so different that I really can’t compare it to anything. I think it’s great and more along the lines of something you’d enjoy, hopefully.

[@JessInDreams7]

@@thepgawesomechannel5930 Thanks for another recommendation! Sounds like another interesting watch, will definitely check it out 😊

[@metalmadsen]

Yes how dare everyone have a non-strong-etnic-girlboss as the lead …

[@wrenchguy2937]

This showed. Imo. I didnt like it lol

[@JessInDreams7]

Haha, I can respect that too. I probably would'n't have even watched it if there wasn't so much hype around it 😅

[@ToxicGamer86454]

I don’t like the Hollywood portrayal of Japan. They were basically savage murderous monsters with no honor yet they portray them as just the opposite. And everyone trying to delete themselves was laughable 😂 There is no evidence that is how it was or if it was it was to escapes a shit life, not about honor. Imagine thinking the Japanese have honor 😂 And Toranaga was a trash person. The dude killed off the ones that cared about him most to achieve his own ambitions. He was a savage tyrant. Finally something honest about Japan. And you notice he never deleted himself 😂 Nah, that is only for everyone else to do

[@JessInDreams7]

It did feel like the seppuku was overused and glorified in the show. I'm not sure how historically accurate the frequency in which it happened in the show was, but it was a bit hard to grasp from my modern day outsider perspective that it made sense and was respected that life could be easily thrown away left and right 😅

[@ToxicGamer86454]

With all that said, I did like the show. You lost me at “white savior” though. If you watched the show you could see that he was irrelevant. In real life he was much more relevant as a boat builder. Maybe look up the real life man before you start spewing bullshit from your liberal arts degree.

[@JessInDreams7]

@@ToxicGamer86454 Hmm I didn't say this was a white savior story. I thought it might've been initially but clearly it wasn't. Also I don't have a liberal arts degree 😅

[@ToxicGamer86454]

@@JessInDreams7 The fact that you think the whole ‘white savior’ thing is even real tells a lot and exposes your racism. I don’t care though and you have every right to be racist and ignorant. Have a nice day

[@matt00794]

I was never able to get into the show, I gave it three episodes and after that just didn't care, heard about what happened and just had no interest in going back, I didn't like any of the characters, not in a they are morally grey or bad just nothing was shown to make me like and understand them more than just i'm x person and y is my goal. I'm glad so many people liked it though, just wasn't for me

[@JessInDreams7]

The show has been receiving a lot of praise, but I can definitely understand it's not for everyone. I can also see how the characters can lack appeal because from the beginning we as the audience are just thrown into the middle, and the events that happen along with the character motivations are a bit difficult to understand/get into unless you resonate a lot with traditional Japanese values/have an interest in the culture of that time.