Shogun Understands Violence

[@sindrimyr5351]

When I saw Blackthorn stepping up during Marikos seppuku, i was totally convinced it was another attempt to stop her.... Instead volunteering to be her second? Bruh that got me.

[@Laurelin70]

Yeah, and it shows how he in the end has been absorbed, at least partially, in heir worldview and now sort of understand it.

[@nont18411]

You see? Like Blackthorne, when Joffrey ordered Ned Stark’s execution, it was to show how much he loved Ned.

[@colinadams5419]

@@nont18411 No one can doubt the virtue of Joffery the Gentle

[@machiavelli545]

You know whats funny ? Toranga never wanted Hiromatsu to die. His plan was to ask the generals who wore their armor at the funeral to commit seppuku to sell the ruse of surrender. Hiromatsu actually outsmarted Toranaga by doing it first and selling the ruse far better knowing at the point toranga would have no choice but to accept and spare the generals. It was a tragedy but at the same time a more efficient win

[@davescripted3796]

Jesus. That would that have been even darker!

[@machiavelli545]

@@davescripted3796 oh it is. I was shocked when I found this out from their official podcast. Infact in the books hiromatsu is actually alive and him dying wasn't even part of the initial plan by the writers but rather something they decided later on. In a way it also showed the vulnerable side of toranaga and how even he can't plan for everything

[@syjiang]

@@davescripted3796 Yeah Hiromatsu's death was not planned nor desired by Toranaga. Look at the scene carefully again. Toranaga was being confronted by a potential rebellion from his vassals challenging his decision to surrender. They are uncertain how determined Toranaga was and played a game of chicken with their lord to coerce him to change his mind. As you mentioned, surrendering guarantees death and potential end of their house while fighting may be a chance for survival however slim. Hiromatsu stepped in with the offer of seppuku as a self-sacrificial demonstration piece to others that Toranaga was so determined that he will even let his most loyal vassal die than alter his mind, thus signalling that there was no alternative path and rebellion offer no benefits. The exchange between Toranaga and Hiromatsu while had a superficial layer, also contained a hidden conversation beneath things; Toranaga was hinting to him that he preferred Hiromatsu to stay with him and fight to the end with the phrase "die by my side at Osaka", as we know Toranaga had ambition to become Shogun so that phrase would contain a double meaning of wanting Hiromatsu to stay alive and serve him to the end after he become shogun at Osaka. Hiromatsu retorted that "You are throwing away all that we have fought for" which could also double as "If you did that my lord then you risk a rebellion before you and lose this fight". The two then proceed to have a prolong stare where Toranaga looked highly perturbed and indecisive before making a sudden blink signalling his final consent of the seppuku, where upon Hiromatsu replied "So you DO believe in pointless death" with the do underlined for emphasis. There is a Chinese stratagem, potentially apocryphal, called 苦肉 which literally translated as "Bitter flesh". It is utilized when one is weak and desperate, at this moment doing something that is extremely self-injurious in order to deceive the opponent and lure them into false security and vulnerable to subterfuge. Toranaga might have being willing to sacrifice all his generals and risk rebellion but Hiromatsu offered him a less costly path.

[@CarolineSmith-e6k]

Hiromatsu: I stg imma kill myself. Hiromatsu, on the inside: STREET SMARTS

[@1ManNamedDan]

It is always fascinating to admire a character in a story and later understand they kept their real ambitions subtle yet somehow in view, much like Daenerys Targaryen in Game Of Thrones many fans ignored the signs that she would become the villain through all of her hardships, Lord Toranaga as well suffered many indignities and yet despite saying he would absolutely not seek to be Shogun and strongly dismissing his vassals who compelled him to do so - yet secretly had a plan for it = DICK MOVE. Toranaga is the bad guy in my mind as his deceptions and machinations seemed more in service of power then brining honor and prosperity for those in his clan who served with loyalty and selfless sacrifice. Toranaga is a two faced bastard who would be shamed by his ancestors for what he did to those who faithfully followed him and his treacherous ways.

[@AlvorReal]

The purpose of Hiromatsu's death was a specific type of seppuku used to shame one's superiors. It's essentially the ultimate way to force a protest to be acknowledged. it is also a very intimate thing to do. If Toranaga, who had carefully weighed his options, genuinely knew and believed he would lose, then to refuse Hiromatsu's death in this moment is to insult his willpower and devotion. By accepting the death, he accepts and acknowledges and even honors his subordinate, no matter in how unpleasant a way. Edit: Notwithstanding his plan, lol.

[@machiavelli545]

You know whats funny ? Toranga never wanted Hiromatsu to die. His plan was to ask the generals who wore their armor at the funeral to commit seppuku to sell the ruse of surrender. Hiromatsu actually outsmarted Toranaga by doing it first and selling the ruse far better knowing at the point toranga would have no choice but to accept and spare the generals. It was a tragedy but at the same time a more efficient win

[@mrsir2254]

Yeah...that's called thoroughly ridiculous nonsense 😅. I'm a fan of Japanese culture generally, but this has Kamikaze energy... it's wasteful, objectively immoral, and it rightly belongs in the past. It's not the tradition of an honorable society, it's toxic behavior spawned from a time in Japanese history when morality was largely absent. Ned Stark was also a massively useless moron.

[@conorjohn490]

I somehow picked up on this as a sort of culturally embedded "final disagreement" quite effortlessly from the storytelling alone. In fact, once Torunaga's master plan starts to show it retroactively kinda confuses the motivations of Hiromatsu's disagreement.

[@AlyssMa7rin]

@@conorjohn490 It also sells just how close to his chest that Toranaga kept his 'cards'. He was so devoted to the subterfuge that he allowed his best friend to kill himself just to sell the deal.

[@DarkSeresutia]

@@AlyssMa7rin it just shows how brutal times it was

[@ColbyNeblett]

What's crazy is the practice of having a second, called a kaishakunin, first appeared in the 1500s. The first recorded seppuku was in 982. So for like 600 years they were slowly dying by disembowelment. Pure madness It continued to become easier over the years tho in some instances them just putting their hand on the dagger was enough and then they were beheaded.

[@golagiswatchingyou2966]

Maybe it happened less often in those 600 years because it was more painful? Hopefully 😅

[@coldrage20t8]

​@@golagiswatchingyou2966 it was mostly done to keep from being dishonored by capture if you lost a battle your second was supposed to take your head and hide it. ( head taking was very common and was how many people gain titles and honor) latwe on from 1600-1800s it was a punishment to save face and more often then not keep the shogun from killing your whole family.

[@cantinadudes]

I heard they later often used wooden daggers they simply held against their stomach to be decapitated

[@mephisto8101]

@@coldrage20t8 The "honor" part is an important part of the reasoning behind, but incomplete. If you got in captivity, you lost your honor. Because you've lost your honor, the captors are not going to treat you nicely. Crucifications and torturing of captives was the norm. In this environment it became far more attractive to take your own life than get into captivity. Contrast that with medieval warfare in europe, where it was common to capture nobles and let their families pay ransom. Getting captured was not unusual, and the treatment of the nobles was not bad in captivity. There was no incentive in Europe for a similar practise as in Japan.

[@notthatgerry]

Madness?? THIS IS JAPAAAAAAAN!!!!!!!!!!

[@iamai_iggs]

it's interesting to me to hear people say that the finale of shogun is underwhelming or anticlimactic. I guess that's true if we look at it from a western storytelling pov and the traditional 3 act structure. eastern storytelling tends to end on a more contemplative or reflective note, so my mind went "oh of course they're choosing to depict grief over a big battle". did not realize I have a switch in my head to adjust how I consume western and eastern production though, so this is a revelation.

[@adrianoolivares7851]

yeah thing is this was a western production with western actors and western pov xD

[@Alex-pb6mx]

It's still an eastern story I know we're all used to changing stories to fit our interests but shogun going the other way makes it unique

[@adrianoolivares7851]

@@Alex-pb6mx agreed the production got the real points across and created engagement with the characters mental and emotional states. I actully think that the story line with mariko and anjin got in the way of the story of toranga but i get it was for dramatization.

[@TheTransitmtl]

It's based on a book by James Clavell. It is definitely a western type story. There is absolutely a 3 arc structure and a hero's journey

[@caniblmolstr452]

​@@Alex-pb6mxthis story was written by an rmglishman

[@nont18411]

At first, we thought that Toranaga was the Ned Stark of this show. Then, we realized that the true Ned Stark was Hiromatsu all along, because of the obvious reason.

[@DeltafangEX]

Literally was gonna say this. Reminds me of how I had to put the book down the first time I read because I was completely in shock that such a thing could even happen with no divine intervention in the land of fiction. Incredible experience.

[@peterlee6391]

Toranaga seems more fitting to be the Tywin of the show. He's clearly adept at playing the game, and commanding respect and power with as little force as possible.

[@hardgay7537]

It was a good move on the show's part to kill off old Iron Fist. The most meaningful things he did in the book were fuck with Yabu for comedic relief and provide Toranagi someone to exposition dump to. With cinema foreshadowing can be done in more subtle ways than having to specifically say something or imply it.

[@anadaere6861]

The moment you notice that Toranaga is closer to Ieyasu, you realize, that hes not THAT good of a person lmao

[@williamadiputra2850]

@@peterlee6391 he seems more like varys to me. you couldn't really tell what his motives are.

[@fot6771]

Hirumatsu also did it because, if potentially there were any spies reporting information to Ishido, they would be confident that even Toronaga's personal life is falling apart and he's appearing to lose power within his own group.

[@plainwelltoad]

this was my assumption when I watched. He needed to convince Ishida he was giving up. Having everyone sign the surrender was the main plan. When his general protested, Toranaga had no choice but to allow the seppuku if the overall ruse was to be successful. There was a minute when I actually thought they had _both_ actually planned the seppuku, but as steely as those characters are, I don't think they're THAT steely. I think, having read a little bit of feudal Japan's lore prior to watching the show, I was both better prepared for these scenes and not. In other words, I absolutely expected the ritual suicides to follow through. Western culture is focused on individual worth; seeing that play out in a show about feudal japan would not make sense. So, the first few were not surprising. Mariko's, therefore, was an absolute nail-biter for me.

[@MarkAndreYapching]

@@plainwelltoad In the book, Hiro-matsu arrived late to Edo and complained as he did to Toranaga about the "cowardice" his film counterpart griped about. However, Toranaga confided in him that it was all to confuse any enemy spies in Edo and Hiro-matsu willingly played along by acting sick, even whispering to some ears that he was sick of what Toranaga told him. This was after Toranaga ordered a general to commit seppuku for protesting, which the series alluded to slightly during Naga's funeral.

[@offensivename11]

One thing I thought was interesting was that when (spoilers) Yabushige asked for John to be his second, Toranaga said no. To me, that shows that there is one line Toranaga won't cross; he won't make somebody who doesn't know how to use a katana second somebody else's seppuku. He experienced that when he was a kid and he knows how traumatic that is.

[@MarkAndreYapching]

He probably also wanted to cut Yabu's head himself. In the book, it was Omi who seconded him; in the first series, it was Hiro-matsu.

[@nont18411]

And he wanted to blow up some steams as well. If Blackthorne was the one seconding Yabu, Toranaga wouldn’t have a chance to reveal his masterplan so Toranaga took it upon himself to tell Yabu (and mainly the audience) his expositions.

[@samscopeproductionz]

The audience demanding a final blockbuster battle completely ignored the entire show being about how battles are won before they’re even fought. They showed how Toranaga won Sekiguhara before it was even fought. So why do we even need to see it?

[@atomic_wait]

It's also accurate to the book, where the battle of sekigahara happens very quickly in the epilogue (I think, it's been like 20 years since I read the book). Toranaga explaining his 4D chess to a condemned man and us getting little flash forward snippets was a satisfying way to translate that epilogue to the screen, IMO. A non-traditional epilogue that also gives us some more character moments.

[@username.exenotfound2943]

they also dont seem to realise it isnt over, for the books maybe but like 5 years later HE DOES go to war as predicted in the show and wins

[@sebakrol3433]

It's really simple, false marketing. Watch again trailer, dynamic cuts, half of it is action so audience expect action specielly if events take place in Sengoku Jidai. Please, winning the fight before it started is just bad pay off after 10h of preparation and talking.

[@Taima]

In terms of storytelling the battle is completely unnecessary. But in terms of being a stunningly detailed series that understands the setting and could and debatably should have rewarded its viewers with at least a little big battle action as payoff for the ride would have been nice.

[@RndmBad]

Dude, that was my reaction when I saw the final scene. I jumped out of my seat like it was some sporting event and my team won. This show was masterfully written.

[@ForgeofAule]

Hiromatsu's death was necessary. Toranaga knew there was a mole with him and that he had to convince the other Regents that he had given up no matter what. He also needed to buy time. If he didn't go straight to the capital, the Regents would send their armies to kill him/bring him in. But if someone like his son and then close friend died, he would have a reason to take longer getting to the Council.

[@davescripted3796]

I don't know. It wasn't really a mystery that Toranaga suspected Yushibe might turn against him. And the Regents weren't exactly a united force, thanks in no small part to Toranaga using the Anjin. Did he have to play his hand carefully? Yes. Was Hiromatsu killing himself the only way to drag things out? Debatable.

[@barnebyoconnell8176]

@@davescripted3796 It seems like it's a shocking enough event to be make Toranaga's surrender convincing. Regardless of other options, it can't be ignored.

[@SplendidFactor]

You'll notice that when Mariko goes to speak to Ishido, she's wearing a Crimson Sky themed kimono. Crimson Sky being the Plan B Toranaga's generals wanted to enact (Storm Osaka with an army).

[@Mankepanke]

The episode was also named "The Crimson Sky" IIRC.

[@chaosax0lotl]

Exactyl, at the end Toranaga himself reveals that the real Crimson Sky was Mariko

[@velvetine74]

This show more than makes up for a lack of big battles and action with intelligent thoughtful tension building.

[@AshtonCoolman]

People romanticize Japan but most humans wouldn't want to be around the place until about 10 years after the end of WW2. Imperial Japan and Feudal Japan were not fun places to be.

[@NelsonStJames]

People romanticize a lot of eras of the past that they would not have enjoyed living in, nor would they have survived in if they were able to do so.

[@lupsastta90]

The show definitely made Japanese look like a bunch of crazies

[@AshtonCoolman]

@@lupsastta90 they were really like this though. In fact in reality they were likely worse. Read about this era in Japan and everything through WW2 😉

[@OCinneide]

Dedication to a craft will always be admired by people, especially young men with no craft.

[@hardcoreweeb6439]

To be fair Japan was fairly normal comparing to all the other western powers after its unification war all the way until the end of Taisho period, roughly mid-to-late 1920s.

[@davidfoster7034]

An interesting fact to my mind and an excellent show of how vital and how much prestige was bound up in skill and control with the katana was that when seconding a Seppuku ceremony to cut the neck all the way through was seen as a failure on the part of the second precisely because it would lead to the head rolling off and about in an undignified manner. Disembowing oneself requires massive self control, obviously, but also it isn't just an in and across; it often has additional steps, including what is often more proverbial twisting of the knife in the wound. Cutting the neck but only so much as to leave enough skin to hold the head to the torso was a mercy strike, relieving the suffering of what would otherwise be a very slow process from the perspective of the person suffering it. To me, how the supposedly catholic nobleman refused to aid Mariko is a deeply severe betrayal and could be used to undermine what support he may have from fellow Christians.

[@r1e234]

so asking him was icing on the cake because that places him too in a double bind. do it and prove how unchristian he is killing a defenseless woman or refuse and prove how unjapanese he is letting her disembowel herself slowly. anjin stepping up became an unpredicted cherry on top because she obviously dont want to die from the disemboweling alone but he'd likely botch it, katanas are notoriously hard to use without training and beheadings are no easy thing, double so if as you say they weren't even supposed to let the head fall and roll. so both those lords would have their reputation stained for letting her kill herself with only some foreign lout having the honor to step up even if it turns into an undignified display.

[@isuckatgaming1182]

Watched a lot of anime and samurai/ninja movies in my time but this is the first piece of Japanese media to actually give me culture shock

[@redadmiralofvalyria867]

What's that?

[@Drawperfectcircles]

@@redadmiralofvalyria867anime is Japanese cartoon.

[@levilecrone3456]

​@@redadmiralofvalyria867If you're talking about culture shock, it's the realization that a culture isn't nearly as good as you thought it was. Westerners tend to idealize Japan, so a lot of them are caught off guard when they learn how brutal its history is.

[@TheChuckfuc]

Another horrific Japanese movie is seppoku. It's a good movie but shows how heartless 17th century Japan really was.

[@TyberiusGracchus]

@@levilecrone3456I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s finding out the culture is worse. I think it’s more that realizing a culture is so incredibly different from what you’re used to, that normally day to day stuff for them can completely take a foreigner aback.

[@Conn30Mtenor]

Japan's greatest novelist of the 20th centuru (and arguably, ever) Yukio Mishima said that the two pillars of Japanese culture and society are elegance and brutality. He wasn't wrong.

[@BAbaramoes]

Brilliant analysis, I agree that the trend continuation makes the 4th seppuku a real surprise instead of a cheap fake-out. And for the fact if the 3th Seppuku was logical, I think the creators of the show just really wanted to give Hiromatsu a meaningful ending. In the book, Hiromatsu lost his usefulness to Toranaga near the end of the story and stopped being mentioned.

[@davescripted3796]

Thx. I never read the book or saw the original show but I think you're right about them wanting hiromatsu to go out like g and just the massive head fake his death brings, which was brilliantly done, but has no real impact on what Mariko does later

[@sebastianmunozochoa1485]

​@@davescripted3796also Toranaga is more ruthless in the book. He stopped seeing the husband of Fuji (Fujiko in the book) as a human and wanted him dead.

[@mattmac6069]

​@@sebastianmunozochoa1485I don't think book Toranaga is more ruthless, I think they just obfuscated his ruthlessness, to a degree, until the final to make the "you no different from the rest of us" line hit harder.

[@sebastianmunozochoa1485]

@@mattmac6069 I guess the new toranaga knew how to show a face to the outside world and another one to himself. That includes his ruthlessness.

[@thomas_walker]

toranaga and hiromatsu both understood that politics is a game of death. mariko did as well. they both understood the purpose of their death: to usher in the new era

[@Warmaker01]

The Hiromatsu seppuku made me think of something else. When Oda Nobunaga finally succeeded his father, he was in the "Fool of Owari" phase of his life. He was an embarrassment that nobody could, or would not dare to try and correct. One of his senior most retainers tried but in the end it wasn't working out. The man committed seppuku to protest to Nobunaga to reform his ways. Eventually he would after the incident. He'd go on to unify Owari province and was the one to make it possible to unify Japan.

[@nont18411]

Yeah, that moment really straightened him up. I also think of another event regarding Nobunaga as well. He suspected Ieyasu’s (Toranaga) son and first wife of treason and ordered their execution and Ieyasu did just that. He sacrificed his own wife and son for his own ambition and survival (while promoting it as “doing it for the clan”). If what Toranaga did to Tadayoshi (Fuji’s first husband), Tadayoshi’s baby, Hiromatsu, his own son and Mariko was so heartless, what Ieyasu did in real life was so much worse.

[@mrkiky]

@@nont18411 I mean, Tadayoshi did it to himself. He was too shortsighted to see that speaking out would cause a war on the spot. Toranaga had to imply that Ishido had not in fact insulted him, which means the only offense was committed by Tadayoshi when speaking out against a non-insult. And then, it was him who proposed to commit seppukku AND end his bloodline to make up for it. Perhaps the ending of the bloodline was too far, and Ishido would have accepted his death alone, but he really wanted to go the extra mile to make sure.

[@m24213]

@@nont18411 No, the ambition of Ieyasu is very debatable, i.e no one is sure when he decided he wanted to be the shogun. But the incident you are describing happened at the height of Oda Nobunaga's power. Ieyasu was getting a bit more powerful for the comfort of Nobunaga, but being allies left him little option to retaliate, as such, some speculate that Nobunaga was looking for an excuse to start a fight with Ieyasu. Either way, refusing Nobunaga at this stage would be death of entire family, all his sons, daughters, brothers everyone. As such Ieyasu really had no choice here. I mean, Ieyasu did not even try to take control until after death of Toyotomi hideyoshi, he didnt even try after the death of nobunaga. In my opinion, the ambition of Ieyasu only started after the death of Hideyoshi which weakened his clan.

[@denim_ak]

Great vid, one point I’d add is that we are straight up told that the Lord is planning on sacrificing the girl for his plans, he asks if she’s OK with this, but it’s before the show has shown us how far it’s actually willing to go and how just like Game of Thrones nobody is actually safe from plot armor. So we write it off when the dialogue implies we may be losing her. And then it’s blisteringly obvious after it’s happened. It reminded me of this Dave Chappelle bit where he tells you the punchline first and then lets you forget about it tells this long story and then circles back to the punch line and it’s still funny even though you knew the punchline ahead of time. brilliant

[@OliverCovfefe]

Fuck it We live and we die

[@oya7524]

It is very refreshing to hear someone who appreciates the good sides of the show, without also glossing over the fact that Shogun has some big plotholes! Interesting take on the whole seppuku-bit. I hadn't thought about it like that.

[@Ome99]

I think you should've better explained (if at all) that Hiromatsu only sacrificed himself to help sell Toranaga's deception. This isn't even implied, but explicitly explained by Toranaga in his conversation with Mariko later that night, a clip of which you already did include.

[@chrisvb4387]

Torunaga's friend was in on and part of the plan. He committed sepukku on purpose for his lord to win in the long run.

[@davescripted3796]

Yeah I get that. But imagine if he hadn't. The Mariko plan still would have worked, it just wouldn't have been as dramatic.

[@darknation6174]

​@@davescripted3796You are mistaken tho. Ishido is not as much of a fool as you make him to be. He kinda sensed that Mariko and Toranaga have a secret plan thats why he seeks an alliance with Ochiba but the death of Hiromatsu was the point that made Ishido feel comfortable enough to let Mariko into Osaka. Also Hiromatsus death sould have worked as a distraction to the Anjin and Yabushige to keep them away from his plans, which we know failed or better said worked out in a different way since Mariko got blown up because of Yabushige interfereing.

[@El-Burrito]

Gyatt damn, I haven't seen this show yet and despite this entire video basically spoiling it, not only could I not pull myself away but I NEED to watch this show now! good job!

[@svesnimajmun2731]

I watched a little over 2 minutes and said fuck it, lets not spoil everything and whatched it

[@Bigdogbozo]

First five minutes of this video had me pause, save and watch the show. Thanks man

[@darylblack7394]

Hiromatsu comitting seppuku not only made it appear he had given up to Ishido but to Yabushige and Anjin as well. With Yabushige going to Ishido (who Toranaga already suspects of betraying him) that allows him to send Mariko with them to enact Crimson Sky along with them. When he gets the report that Anjin swore fealty to Yabushige and leave with him to Osaka you see Toranaga reply good with a tone and expression that looks like they did what he wanted them to do.

[@AvengerAtIlipa]

The greatest show I've seen in years. Don't make a second season.

[@R4Y2k]

This show was one of the high points of tv this year.

[@thrasherthetic]

Best film adaptation of a novel I've seen since the LOTR trilogy. No kidding. Absolutely gets you to buy in to every twist and turn on these major plot points and nails the same feel you got going through those sections in the books.

[@Galvvy]

If you understand the context of Tokugawa Ieyasu's life you're already spoiled about the general plot points of the story, however I really loved the series for being very period accurate and not trying to cater to a flashy sensationalism of history (apart from the CGI used at the end sequence which felt out of place.) For context Hiromatsu had to die, because only by word of one of his best generals committing seppuku would the other Daimyo really have believed he would surrender, no amount of words or gesturing could successfully convince them. I wish they had actually ended on a massive battle (Battle of Sekigahara) since the guns and cannon could have actually been utilized and shown to devastating effect led by Anjin (William Adams.) Apart from that missed opportunity, probably due to budget reasons, I really loved the show overall and think it was extremely well directed and choreographed.

[@machiavelli545]

You know whats funny ? Toranga never wanted Hiromatsu to die. His plan was to ask the generals who wore their armor at the funeral to commit seppuku to sell the ruse of surrender. Hiromatsu actually outsmarted Toranaga by doing it first and selling the ruse far better knowing at the point toranga would have no choice but to accept and spare the generals. It was a tragedy but at the same time a more efficient win

[@ryandempsey4830]

Using Sekigahara as a finale action set piece would have been a profound, massive mistake. There is literally no tension or meaning in any of the various little actions that make up big battle scenes because the OUTCOME of the battle, in the context of the story, is not in question and entirely beside the point. Its just a huge misunderstanding of what the show is doing and what made it great. In the visual storytelling language of film, if you're going to do a big battle as a climax, then you have to do a ton of set up that specifically raises questions and tensions that can all be resolved within the battle to make it meaningful to the characters. An in order to do that, you would have to completely change the dynamic of the whole show to remove the element of the time, place, and outcome of the battle being well known in advance by Toranaga.

[@dungcheeseMORK999]

Respect to you for using Winterblood's work. Great winter synth!

[@davescripted3796]

Thx! Yeah it's really moody and helped set the tone

[@qkranarchist3015]

Super interesting retelling with changes of the original book. Great analysis from the narrator. They changed key points -- WOW. This is a favorite book that I used to annually read (until I lost my ability to read. Last year, I got the audiobook and listened to it again.) I had no idea this movie version was created (I was first introduced to the original tv series many decades ago). Will watch. thanks

[@nickgamingmusic9911]

15:10 For me it made sense, in that it was my understanding in some episode or so earlier that there was a spy amongst them and to fully show his surrender of having given up, they go through with it - and the old man was probably aware of it and played his part as he too episodes earlier said that the lord hadn't given up yet to the closest confidants even when it all seemed like the lord had given up already back then.

[@theeviljames]

Awesome analysis. Seeing those scenes again gave me goosebumps - an echo of the tension at the time, that you describe

[@houseofsquared]

Sadly the show did not explain the importance of choosing a second. Which was explained in the book. The second's role is to wait until he believes that the one performing seppuku has atoned for his failure, if the 2nd beheads him too quickly, the honor of the seppuku committing guy might not be regained. if the 2nd beheads him too slow, the one performing seppuku will suffer a lot. So the 2nd's role is very important. Which is why you should choose wisely who will be your second. If you remember in the finale, yabushige, initially chooses the anjin to be his 2nd, in my opinion yabushige thinks that anjin will behead him quickly out of anger. but toranaga denied this request, probably thinking the same thing. toranaga waited too long, which is why yabushige turned his head to toranaga and toranaga smiled, because he was intentionally prolonging yabishige's suffering.

[@davescripted3796]

That's interesting about the role of the second. But I didn't see it that way at the end with Yushibe. After Toranaga explained his plan and then said let's do this, Yushibe didn't hesitate. He stabbed himself one handed and then turned to Tora and grinned. He may have betrayed the person he was supposed to be loyal too but he went out like a g

[@houseofsquared]

@@davescripted3796 Compare how long it took for buntaro to behead his dad And how long torinaga took to behead yabushige Torinaga took his time.

[@Swaggs907]

It was aaaalllllll part of the plan. It was all a ruse. A giant faint. All toranaga had to do was pretty much stay alive and he already won. One of the best shows I’ve seen in a long while.

[@davidwampler7801]

Toranaga had to allow Hirumatsu to die to "prove" he was unwilling to fight: his top general is now dead, committing seppuku on his own terms at Toranaga's command, rather than later when the Council has demanded it. Everyone else in that room can foresee that they will be commanded to do the deed by the Council IF Toranaga surrenders, but as long as they continue to resist (as his other generals indicate by continuing to wear their military armor), then they can always hope that they might find a way out. By smothering the hopes of all his generals, Toranaga can convince all of his enemies that he intends to surrender, when, in truth, he is buying time.

[@BusinessWolf1]

This show was serious. There is nothing serious anymore.

[@jaykovar8231]

The laziest of takes. 'Things were better back in my day' is always, ALWAYS, a boring, incurious and intellectually lacking take without proper qualitative analysis to support it

[@nathagar9251]

@@jaykovar8231 a simple take isn’t necessarily a bad take, or an insincere one. One of the most noteworthy cinema trends of the last decade is an increased use of awkward comedy to break any tension the story has managed to build - not a universal problem, certainly, but something people have been complaining about for a while now. Shogun felt like a breath of fresh air in that it never undercut itself for a cheap laugh or reference.

[@jaykovar8231]

@@nathagar9251 I don’t deny that that trend exists, I don’t deny that Shogun is one thing (though far from the only thing) that bucks that trend, and I never even began to say that any simple take is automatically bad or insincere. But EVERY time in the history of any kind of art, entertainment and media has good qualities and bad qualities, good trends and bad trends. Every time and every generation has people who think the entertainment they used to consume is better than what is currently available. ‘There is nothing serious anymore’ is what I’m calling out, massive nostalgia-driven generalisations are not criticisms worthy of respect.

[@josedorsaith5261]

'proper qualitative analysis ' Please be quiet and stop using using terms you don't know the meaning of. It makes you look a midwit

[@ciaochrystusa4778]

That show was like few months ago lmao

[@NelsonStJames]

Few films are going to compete against an adaptation based on good source material and that respects its source material. It's just strange that so many productions don't realize this and think they can do better.

[@RainOn2SunnyDay]

it made sense because it was established that the guy is a trickster and he frequently keeps his subordinates out of the loop as his main thing

[@Buzzabeel]

The scene with Hiromatsu showed the audience just how far Toranaga was willing to go for his schemes. It pretty brilliantly sets up Mariko’s sacrifice later, because it comes as a shock, but completely in line with the narrative, and even more in line that Toranaga knew exactly what would happen and let it. If he watched his oldest friend gut himself for a ploy, no one was safe.

[@whitelabrat]

Haha the Sun Zu quote tipped me over after the excellent break down. Subed.

[@davescripted3796]

🙏!!

[@tommihaapanen846]

The show is brilliant. I've read the book and despite knowing all that happens, I still was at the edge of my seat with every scene. Hiromatsu, Mariko, all of it.

[@golagiswatchingyou2966]

I think it was episode 4/5 with the cannonball shot that really blew my mind of the level of gore in this show, though they don't seem to go beyond that level of brutuality.

[@rhonafenwick5643]

In fairness, nothing goes beyond that level of brutality. Cannon fire is rarely portrayed in film doing as much violence as real cannon fire was capable of, especially the alternative ammunition types; the impact of chain shot and grape shot on flesh is nothing short of terrifying

[@garretthayes9392]

Shogun really highlights the difference between focal points of outlook. The collectivism in this show is wild.

[@Behilt]

When we saw blackthorn old and bedridden looking at the sword it was heartbreaking, his grandchildren ( I think ) talking about savages as he remembers the woman he fell in love with

[@rex8255]

Yeah, I've read the book several times, and listened to the audio book several times. No spoilers for me!

[@szymonbaranowski8184]

I miss toshiro minfune so much! greeting from Poland. Porando Kaiko guys

[@FletchD541]

you got the like for the lebowski reference. Well done

[@ferrisbueller9991]

This show rocks... gotta finish it before watching this.

[@thac0twenty377]

James Clavell understands violence.

[@Kedamojo]

This show was masterclass, that ending caught me so off guard but the hair standing on my neck was worth it.

[@Calypso694]

perfect television in my opinion.

[@salamandiusbraveheart4183]

Best show in years

[@jutton11]

"Either way, its going to cost him." - DaveScripted'a catchphrase

[@n5gus]

I’ve never been the type to get emotional watching movies and tv shows but it’s been only 2 times where I’ve came close to crying my eyes out 1- The ending of the Movie Allied(2016) where one of protagonist sacrifices themselves. It hit me so hard because wasn’t expecting it at all. 2- The Episode Hiromatsu commits seppuku. Everyone that wrote/ directed/worked on this needs a kiss on the forehead because I literally couldn’t stop thinking about how well it was executed. By the end of the episode I was sitting in front of my tv speechless for a good 10 minutes.

[@redsol3629]

Your position as Anjin is this new place demonstrates the Japanese mindset. That you are a vessel of destiny, preordained.

[@pallenda]

Shogun was simply brilliant.

[@IrateFUPA]

Love this series.

[@joethemig1522]

The scene with Hiromatsu was to ensure that Osaka had no doubt of Toranaga's intent to surrender. He says as much towards the end of the episode when speaking to Mariko.

[@TheBeelzboss]

Hiromatsu killing himself is explained in the show... He did it so the other Lords would think that Yoshii was going to give up and have no doubts. It was extreme and worked.

[@VolokArtyom]

it's interesting how the show melds together historical figures, they just made Hosokawa Gracia a Tokugawa- "Toranaga", also one of the most senior vassals of Oda Nobunaga killed himself in protest during the "Fool of Owari" period, and Tokugawa had to order his own son's seppuku because of possible collusion with the Takeda, but mostly because his wife didn't like the concubine that was getting a bit cozy with the Takeda and Ieyasu believed their son would retaliate her death, which he must be complicit in to get goodwill with Nobunaga. Hosokawa Gracia's death was possibly a pretty big contribution to Ieyasu's victory in Sekigahara, it garnered support against the already disliked Ishida Mitsunari, and turned a key player, Hosokawa Tadaoki, into a fervent supporter of Ieyasu.

[@VolokArtyom]

Forgot to say, if the name didn't give it away, Gracia was a Catholic, her head was taken by a second when Ishida was rounding everyone in Osaka up as hostages, a bitter mistake for Ishida, he knew it wouldn't look good, and it really didn't.

[@josedorsaith5261]

It did a good job. Previously, the main exposure i had to the warring states period was from the game: Nioh. I'm just glad the Japanese cherish and retell their history. Despite being equally long and full of tragedy & triumph, English history doesn't get the same level of love

[@DHJakon]

You made a whole video essay on seppuku. Shogun has another 200+ more years of head chopping content.

[@Philosjutsu]

Hiromatsu was and was not necessary. It manipulated everyone on both sides of Toranaga at least a little bit. The shock it left on the Portuguese and the Toranaga faction. It lead to the conversation with Mariko and Toranaga. It justified various actions my being a motive. It was the chess move that lead to Toranaga putting Yoshida in check with Mariko. Which was the first step that would lead Toranaga capturing Yoshida's queen, Ochiba-no-kata. A very important step because without it, as Toranaga said "in 1000 years would Ochiba ally herself with me?". Each step of the plan HAD to lead into the next with no room for error.

[@dogzdigital]

Hiromatsu comitting sepeku was according to Toranaga's plan and Hiromatsu understood the mission, they both sacrificed for the strategic advantage.

[@bennygerow]

Excellent vid! Subbed

[@DharianGames]

Shogun was elite.

[@dietwald]

Shogun is, in effect, a story of cultural learning.

[@spaceman9599]

The series was great first time around, but far grittier and more interesting the second time. Nice video essay on it.

[@spaceman9599]

I think they did a better job this time with the source material - Clavell writes some immersive period pieces, well in my opinion. For me the Shogun of my childhood was nothing compared to the emotional grit, darkness, and depth this time around - and some top notch performances.

[@pascoett]

I loved the book by James Clavell. After that I have read Tai-Pan also by him, which was even better.

[@ilikeknives1000]

the original gave the sense that even though he was an outsider he was involved in some way even if only through torenaga 's machinations this one as the op says gives the sense of anjin is just a witness watching instead of being part of it

[@ScilentFox1220]

Man. Edward Norton makes good explainers.

[@christopherpardell4418]

Blackthorn is the McGuffin

[@bkbj8282]

Love youtube channels when 20 year old art school nobodies understand something on tv and deign to explain it to us.

[@Radioeightyeight]

Yes, great analysis. Thanks :)

[@vincenzomarsden9259]

"If one were to say in a word what the condition of being a samurai is, its basis lies first in seriously devoting one's body and soul to his master. Not to forget one's master is the most fundamental thing for a retainer." -Tsunetomo Yamamoto. I highly recommend reading The Hagakure, which is a book written by a Samurai, full of wisdom and stories by him and other samurai before his era. I also highly recommend watching "Ghost Dog: The Way of The Samurai." As far as samurai, the only thing stronger than your word, is the word of your lord.

[@santi3991]

Notice how every other seppuku scene has the same colour palette and a very cool tone except for Mariko's scene, it's very warm and has more white in it, the background is literally a crimson sky! This show knows what it is and what needs doing, it's outstanding.

[@tagbon]

Great analysis.

[@perciusmandate]

I cannot get over the way you pronounce "Sep-yew-kew". XD

[@davescripted3796]

Yeah I'm the worst

[@AbigailRabbit-dj7zk]

Came to the comment section for this comment. Thank you.

[@kellyhou9594]

I feel very sad seeing Hiromatsu killing himself, but now I realized that his death conveys that his lod is surrending.

[@retroghostface]

I honestly thought the seppuku would be stopped. But when it didnt i refused to accept it and figured it had to be part of a bigger plan. When its revealed it was i was relieved to know my many years of japanese politics entertainment helped me come to this conclusion. Lol

[@Kaploy8]

Hiromatsu's seppuku was what broke Toranaga's weaker willed allies to defect to Ishido, giving him an inconspicuous reason to send in Mariko. Like others said, Toranaga didn't want Hiromatsu to be the one to do is (the directors and Sanada talked about how he had to look surprised on the scene) but in the end it worked out in his favor. Toranaga knew from the start that his side was full of spies (the final episode shows how Omi was spying on his own uncle for Toranaga since who knows when) so basically he was just acting weak until his major turncoats defected for a chance to keep their lives.

[@karameyaib1417]

" i was ready to sepeku my television " hhhhhhhhhh omg i fet that too hhhhhhhhhhhh

[@The_Burning_Sensation]

In the book, Blackthorn is much more of an active participant in the intrigues. He's not blind to the maneuvering between the Japanese and plays on it-- especially where it concerns the Spanish.

[@andrewduan5123]

loved the show, it had me on the edge of my seat despite already knowing the history and that Toranaga should go on to unite japan

[@E2J25]

That part really did have my attention as I fully though they both were gonna go through with it

[@AnonNopleb]

Great video as always, Dave. I have eagerly awaited your return. If I recall the book correctly (it's been some years), the whole "procedure" is described to unfold differently with women, which we can see with the wife of the first guy. They target the Carotis instead of the Aorta. Though maybe Mariko had a reason to do it differently due to her position or something?

[@davescripted3796]

lol yeah I realized after I did the voice over that she was about to stab her heart not her belly but it takes me so long to edit these things I was like screw it;-)

[@travislyonsgary]

Faster bleed out and quicker loss of consciousness I assume. I suspect the female variant is like that in part since the status of women in Japan was both low and highly unconnected from independent power. So she kills herself off without a assistant to represent the family (defined around a man in language and law) havin assets be exterminated.

[@jackieking1522]

I recall enjoying the book. 50 years ago. That'll do.

[@user-qx3yo7sx9u]

I love how the Anjin destroyed the hollywood fantasy of "foreigner in strange land of idiots earns trust and leads them" trope. Sure he was influential, but in the high-court, he was mostly a witness to what was already happening.

[@kemsatofficial]

I thought that after the third time, she wouldn’t get to commit seppuku. After getting that far into the show, I started to see the game the characters were involved in, and the hours of KZbin videos I’ve watched kicked in to remind me that the director(s) are also playing a game with the audience.

[@boxtears]

Few corrections needed, the guy who got boiled was Dutch and he was chosen in place of the Anjin because the Portuguese demanded an execution so Yabushige agreed as a way to maintain relations - not "no good reason" as you claim. And the villager got his head lopped not because he made the cross sign but because he didn't back away from the foreigner when demanded by his lord. These are really simple things and I'm surprised you missed them.

[@chandraray7798]

They demanded an execution, they didn't demand that form of execution. That was all yabushige's idea.

[@boxtears]

@@chandraray7798 But had they not demanded any execution, he would've been fine sparing everyone.

[@mattmac6069]

You are deeply pretentious

[@thijsfb]

God i love this show

[@Armoredcompany]

The best way to think of Blackthorn, is as the Narrator. Its HIS point of view that we are seeing this story from. Also, Hiromatsu's death is a great scene, because its probably the MOST emotion that we see from Torganaga in the entire show. He plays his cards close the entire time, but watching his closest friend kill himself just feet away for "the greater good" comes about as close to breaking him emotionally as we get to see.

[@tedoliverpalgan4995]

Hiromatsu's death was important to wane the resolve of the other lords in keeping hostages as they thought Torunaga has given up fighting as he allowed his top general to commit suicide when Hiromatsu pleaded to fight beforehand. Thus, without Hiromatsu's death, the other lords wouldn't have given Mariko the permit to leave.

[@tticusFinch]

9:45 that's "Mariko-sama" to you, sir!

[@raulnavarrete963]

Uhmazing show! 5/5 10/10 100/100

[@1337penguinman]

Honestly, my favorite part of the show was the scene where Blackthorne was actually able to use his preferred weapons (his pistols) in a fight and show that he was anything but incompetent.

[@OscarSchneegans]

That's why I only bathe once a week. I don't want to catch the flux.

[@MikaelWallin-m7c]

Hiromatsus seppuku was paramount in faking weakness, which is the deception Toranaga uses to win the war. Hiromatsu sacrificed himself for the collectivistic goal to bring the clan to victory by hiding Toranagas strength.