Did Celsa Guttierez have Billy the Kid's BABY??!!

In this episode of "Billy's Gals" Michael investigates the mysterious life and legend of Celsa Guttierez who was named as Billy's sweetheart by none other than Paulita Maxwell. Also, new evidence points to the fact that Paulita was NOT pregnant with Billy's baby on the night of his death 14 July, 1881.
#billythekid #celsaguttierez #fortsumner #paulitamaxwell #billysgirls #patgarrett #baby #regulators #lincolncountywar #brushybillroberts

[@jamesroden3265]

I commented before on the Paulita Maxwell video, I am disappointed that the knife Billy was said to be clutching when he died was not mentioned, in my opinion this is a crucial piece of evidence being that the knife was said to belong to Celsa and it was Deputy Poe who testified to giving it back to her

[@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi]

did you listen all the way through James? I did talk about it near the end.

[@c2880cag]

The knife was in his hand but it was not Billy the kid it was a friend of billy the kids also named Billy . He was headed to the maxwell house to get some fresh meat off a hanging cow and bring it back to where Billy was at a near by house of a family that was gonna cook them food .

[@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi]

@@c2880cag that's simply the story told by Brushy Bill and his supporters...there's not proof of that or Billy Barlow whatsoever.

[@danielblackburn1241]

​@@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissiBrushy Bill was never Billy the Kid

[@kerrylangman214]

Brushy said it was Celsa who Pat used as a go - between while he was nursing his wounds elsewhere in Ft Sumner.... It is said Pat's wife in later life firmly denied being related to Celsa .... As with Abrana --- what was the maiden name ? was Abrana's "Segura"? Paulita said a woman did have a child who looked very much like Billy and was very proud of the fact and that the "girl " child only lived to see 8 years : the woman (who she never named) Paulita said -- died many years ago.

[@kathleencalhoun2225]

Celsa had fine features and bone structure, looking at that picture. What I would like to know is, where did you get all this detailed intimate knowledge of these people--Celsa and her husband, that he was a drunkard and so forth? Who was your source of information?

[@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi]

as noted, most research for this episode came from Jason Young of the Billy the Kid Historical Coalition. Short of that, there's almost nothing about Celsa to go on.

[@nathifamclean4847]

billy the kid is a ancestor in my family genology

[@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi]

Can you give us more info please?

[@nathifamclean4847]

Umm Sure Ill have to get the geneology stuff my grandmother has and she away on vacation , but when I can get them ill take pictures

[@teamjanzeslife8741]

@@nathifamclean4847 Magnificent!!

[@maryellenshock]

Cool!

[@mr31337]

@@nathifamclean4847 have you got the info yet?

[@aliyah888777]

My mother had both her children at barely 8 months pregnant. We were both born at just over 4 lbs., so Paulita could have had her baby early. Although I think it's unlikely she had a child from another man in Dec. and took that happy portrait with a new husband in Jan.

[@jeffmutrie227]

She was 19 in 1874 and Billy the Kid was 21 in 1881.

[@kathleencalhoun2225]

How do you know?

[@jmiller1977]

I don’t understand why it would be such a mystery surely the people of fort Sumter would’ve known who Billy was saying when the bin that hidden in the town of 200 people

[@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi]

Agreed....but if you can believe that 200 people kept a secret for the rest of their lives...well then....???

[@basildubose]

@@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi Something like that...Yes!!! it wasn't Dallas or Chicago, a little town out in NM who within 5 years or so wasn't even thought about nor talked about, until 1926 when the Newspaper man wrote the Billy the Kid book and it got brought back to life. 200 people that all knew each other keeping something that BIG a secret. Yeah, i could believe it....doesn't mean he didn't die that night, but the possibilty of a cover up secret from a very small community. Sure.

[@rharthart9477]

There are free pronunciation software apps on the internet. These are Spanish names which is quite common in New Mexico and a simple exploration of the Spanish alphabet will yield hints on pronunciation - 'i' is pronounced like 'e' and 'e' is pronounced like 'a' and 'u' is pronounced like 'ooh', so Day-loo-veena is a more likely pronunciation...

[@BenSHammonds]

no I think the conversation between Pete and Garret took place after the shooting, with Paulita present, that about Garrett and the deputies guarding the body I dont think happened at all, everyone there knew what happened and it couldnt have been a big surprise as everyone knew the Kid was hunted.

[@honeybee1888]

Garrett may have been looking around for people who knew Billiy in search of clues for the money Billy alledgely hid under piss covered guns in Stinking. I am conflicted about Paulita. If she was Billy's girlfriend I would think that she would have hated her brother thereafter. In one of her interviews she goes on and on about hispanic women who will do anything and go anywhere for their man...I wondered about all the verbiage related to that topic in her interview. Celsa disappearing after Billy's death gives makes me wonder. I agree Garrett must have had an earlier conversation with Pete. It would have been pretty stupid to walk into a dark room where a man was sleeping - good way to get shot unless the man knew to expect you. I watched a YT video where Katherine's photo was shown. She was very delicate and pretty (if the photo was legit) and Celsa reminds me of her. Great content on your channel.

[@mr.romero4799]

I know the Guttierez from Hondo had land in Fort Sumner. Maybe they’re from the same family. Most of the Hispanic families who moved in the area in the late 1800s early 1900s came from Tome & Mazano.

[@bobbiburger4015]

Could someone please explain how Pat Garrett kept the things he took off those he killed. Now days it gets entered into evidence, but he had the picture of Charlie and his wife in his possession and sold the knife and had prisoners guns in his armory.

[@NoCoverCharge]

Uh it’s the Wild West and they are in the middle of no where

[@stephengreene1856]

Billy is a well known outlaw all over the world I suppose. I was in Japan when I was in the navy,I went to the Hard Rock Cafe in Tokyo,and this beautiful Japanese girl came right up to me and asked in perfect English 'why is America so violent?' Oh boy...fercryinoutloud! I am not getting a date tonight.. instead I'm going to get a headache. So I asked...who says we are violent? She pulls a picture out of her purse and it's a copy of the that famous tintype of Billy!

[@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi]

Wow! Great story. So, did you get a date?

[@stephengreene1856]

@@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi no..I didn't get a date,Not the one I was hoping to get anyway. But we did get together a few times and she had accumulated alot of things on Billy Bonney,the regulators, Lincoln county war etc I wasn't really disappointed in the outcome of our get togethers,she had stuff I had never seen

[@regisidec5478]

He wasn't truly an outlaw , just labeled as one

[@getoffenit7827]

​@@regisidec5478Billy was an outlaw...He did commit murder and stealing cattle..those activities are outside the law...He was no different than many others in New Mexico,Texas,Arizona...Billy just became singled out..Why? I dont know,There were far worse,more dangerous and more violent than Billy and more deserving of being singled out.

[@chrisruiz1215]

Why didn't brushy bill visit her while he was in the area when he went to the court House

[@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi]

She was long since dead by that point.

[@williamwells8672]

If she disappeared at that time, would it be possible that she and Billy took off together?

[@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi]

Certainly possible

[@davidwarman4290]

Aberdeen, Scotland

[@bluesteeltraining]

In Robert Utley’s book Billy the Kid a short and violent life, he states that Nastasia Yerby bore Billy to daughters who died of diphtheria. Is there really any truth to this? It’s been a while since I’ve read the notes to that book and where the source comes from. or maybe I’m thinking of a Abriana Garcia. I don’t know if you’ve already covered this, and it’s been some time since I’ve read it, but it seems to be stated as though it were fact. No disrespect meant towards Mr. Utley though. It’s a great book and very thoroughly researched, Mr. Utley did a great job in writing it.

[@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi]

I think it was Abrana Garcia but I'd need to reread that passage. Arana's family contacted me after this episode aired, unhappy with my research and conclusions. I invited them to come on the show and have as much time as they needed to spell out their case for Patrocinio being Billy's son....but they went radio silent.

[@maryellenshock]

I read that book, definitely makes you think.

[@rafaelamistry4780]

Wasn't Billy's lover named Pauletta Maxwell

[@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi]

Many people believe Paulita was his girl....but she denied it in later years.

[@teamjanzeslife8741]

Can you see any resemblance between a very young Celsa Guttierez and an old Isadora Miller?

[@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi]

I don't....but Celsa was known to still reside in Sumner long after that night of July 14.

[@teamjanzeslife8741]

@@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi Where did you get that information? You said on the podcast that she is vanishing from history?

[@kathleencalhoun2225]

I just read the 1927 interview online with Paulita Maxwell and Nobel (since you mentioned it, and it got me curious) and have to disagree with you on the timing of her comments. I think that all of them did have that conversation in the same room Garrett shot Billy AFTERWARD, not sometime before. The reason seems to be is that Pat Garrett thought Billy was very foolish to have endangered his life by returning to his old haunt (Ft. Sumner) so what in the world could have motivated him do such a foolish thing, knowing he would place himself in a precarious and obvious location? In other words, it was dumb of him, but Garrett knew Billy wasn't dumb. That reason makes sense for having that conversation AFTER.

[@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi]

Fair enough....you're probably correct.

[@rickashley7452]

When picturing this night of 14 July 1881 in your minds eye remember this: Ft Sumner was in the new fangled mountain time zone. But for practical purposes people operated off of local time. Noon was when the Sun was highest in the sky, and also when it was dead south-for your location. Noon Ft Sumner was at 1203pm on a clock set to Mountain time. Just a 3 Minute difference Sunset was at 7:10pm.The sun set at 297 degrees true (so NorthNorthwest) Civil twilight ended at 7:39. Come 8:10pm it's quite dark. Moonrise was 9:21 pm The fullmoon was on the 10th. At midnight (say 11:59pm) the moon was 81%full at 116 degrees true and 32 degrees above the horizon. Looking at your Fort map imposed on a topo Pete's house faced about 110 degrees true Therefore the moon would have been bright against the house, almost like a spotlight and shown into the windows not being blocked by the varanda.

[@NoCoverCharge]

Way too much info

[@lostviking540]

Beautiful lady for sure.

[@itsbeenaminute.6701]

Plot twist Brushy is the illegitimate love child

[@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi]

wouldn't that be something?

[@jamesroden3265]

I just made it to the end of the video very sorry you did mention the knife

[@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi]

No worries...as always, it's going to come down to who you believe. I don't think Poe had any reason to lie....but I also don't think it's beyond reason that Paulita just kept it (or Deluvina did). As I said, it just doesn't seem like anyone was keeping this as a historical artifact....they just probably needed their knife back.

[@tinarosenberg5781]

What knife

[@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi]

@@tinarosenberg5781 the knife that Billy was said to be carrying, and was auctioned off by Brian Lebel in 2019 for $100K

[@NoCoverCharge]

Damn cute for back then

[@dianebays5484]

What? Not technically what enough to listen to a podcast? I'm 65 and listen a lot to them.

[@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi]

Don't take it so hard....just a joke. People "listen" on KZbin at a rate of 20 or 30 to 1 over just the audio podcast. I have no idea why?

[@JimmyMeroney-pl8ld]

Why couldn’t Paulita have had the baby before the marriage to the other guy. Just because they don’t show her with the baby does it mean there wasn’t one. There is a picture of floating around of a Hispanic looking boy that looks a lot like Billy the Kid.

[@basildubose]

It's weird how she just completely disappeared. No, information, no death, no nothing. Completely just disappeared from history just like Billy!!!! Funny how BOTH disappeared right at the same time. Billy supposedly dies and she disappeared....weird 🤪

[@teamjanzeslife8741]

Kan Celsa Guttierez bytt namn till Isadora Miller ?

[@teamjanzeslife8741]

Can Celsa Guttierez change her name to Isadora Miller?

[@maryellenshock]

Personally I think he killed her.

[@stephaniesanchez2686]

She didn’t disappear in her great great granddaughter

[@mr31337]

@@stephaniesanchez2686 when did she die, where is she buried? Tell us about her life post 1881

[@jadeblues357]

Hey Michael you’re about a year younger than me I just turned 59 and I do know how to work the stuff for the most part and a female so I don’t really fit in that demographic anywhere doing oh well😊

[@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi]

Careful....I'm going to catch you when my birthday hits in January!

[@georgeroberts613]

Again, I'm sure there was more going on around that house after the shooting than hunkering down in the bedroom. There would have been all kinds of activity going on. How long does it take to have a dozen conversations. And it's likely Billy had several women he was messing with including courting the rich gal in town. One story has someone screwing in the orchard when Garret was casing the house...then at least the guy heads for the house.

[@stephaniesanchez2686]

My great great grandmother is Celsa and she did not have Billie the kids child

[@mr31337]

Please enlighten us further!

[@sway8690]

Could you tell us more about her? I'd love to learn more about her!

[@hotrodzwheels]

You lost me with all your democratic ranting

[@MichaelAnthonyGiudicissi]

Bye

[@darwinswille3795]

Never know he had a girlfriend there but who

[@teresawommack5148]

Celsa was married to her own Uncle.

[@mohicanmachine99]

Well damb! Send me a hot chick out of that 19%.!

[@joesilva9380]

What about the Apache slave what about Jose Chavez what about the Trujillo or silva Billy son Telesfor Lots of aunts my father Bonney from the great grandson of nana Geronimo our dna Chavito the regulators my grandfathers