Did Dark Age Rome look like Detroit?

[@josephryan9628]

Gotta be tough to be a city councilor trying to revitalize the city and you just see an Ancient Rome expert out in front of buildings explaining the parallels between your city an a collapsed civilization

[@allangibson8494]

Rome got “revitalised”. It just took a while.

[@CheeseDudInTheOven]

@@allangibson8494 Similar thing is happening with Detroit where it's starting to bounce back, abliet the ruins of it's former self will always be present alongside the new revitalisation

[@allangibson8494]

@@CheeseDudInTheOven Hopefully the Vandals and Goths won’t roll it back…

[@kakabukkake0]

lmaoooooooo

[@lazzie7495]

@@CheeseDudInTheOvenmuch like Rome itself.

[@-caesarian-6078]

The Packard Plant really is a Roman monument for Detroit. A massive, dignified structure with immense cultural and historical significance, but after the fall, unable to be used because of a lack of demand and decades of neglect. Today (as the colosseum was for centuries after Rome's fall) it is too emotionally significant to demolish, even though logic requires it be torn down eventually. We can only hope that Detroit recovers enough that restoring and reusing the Packard Plant finally becomes at least practical, if not optimal, just as the Colosseum was in modern Italy.

[@ericschmuecker348]

Well said! Dang dude, I got something in my eye.

[@billybobjohnadamjoe]

They’re kinda unfortunately already tearing it down in chunks. I don’t know how far along they are, but a decent bit of the structure isn’t with us anymore.

[@user-jv9qz2bu1r]

Here here. Let's renovate/rebuild the Packard plant and build a monument, a pantheon if you will, to the stalwarts of our American Democratic-Jacobin Ruling Party, with wings reserved for our three letter agencies and union leaders.Detroit is our shining example of a City led by strong Democratic-Jacobin Party leadership after all.

[@patavinity1262]

I don't think the Colosseum wasn't demolished because it was 'too emotionally significant', there was simply no reason to undertake such a massive effort. If a Renaissance pope had decided he wanted to build a church or a palace there, then you can be assured that it would have been torn down without any qualms, which is exactly what happened with many other important Roman buildings and monuments. And very often Roman buildings *were* repurposed in Rome and continue to be to this day. The Colosseum just happened to be an awkward shape and size.

[@RVBJohn]

They're literally tearing it down right now

[@megascoops]

almost got through a whole day without thinking about ancient rome until i got this push notification.

[@perceivedvelocity9914]

I can definitely relate.

[@kamikazetsunami9137]

Yes

[@deathsheadknight2137]

not me!

[@scoon2117]

I think about ancient Detroit everyday

[@sirgalahad1376]

@@scoon2117As do I. I often seek the writings of the stoic philosopher Marshallis Matheruas for comfort.

[@aimeeinkling]

Interesting. I grew up in the California Gold Country. It was an everyday occurrence to run into little "ruins" on the side of the road or in a field. Often, buildings were made of stone by the Welsh miners who came there. I never made the connection between the remains that we would play in as kids and the decline of Rome, until today. I suppose kids used to climb all over the toppled statues and crumbling walls of Rome, just like we did.

[@NyanGeneral]

Wow this is one of the best comments I have ever read holy

[@NealBones]

100% Cali is particularly interesting because of westward expansion and the gold rush there were so many miner towns and temporary settlements that were abandoned once work or ore ran out. Cool perspective 😁

[@ugh.idontwanna]

It sounds a bit distasteful, but my favourite part of going to the beach was to climb and play around on a German WWII bunker. You could get a pretty good view of the ocean from there.

[@NyanGeneral]

@@ugh.idontwanna hardly distasteful you can learn a lot about history through the lens of the scales of things, locations, land, materials available and such seeing the beach better was probably why it was built in the first place lol

[@Jack-The-Gamer-]

⁠@@ugh.idontwannanot distasteful at all. Too many people want to forget the past and pretend everything is black and white. Yes, the Nazi’s we’re evil. Yes, you also have them to thank for countless medical advancements, like the invention of morphine. A well rounded, logical person can accept both of these things for the reality they are.

[@yexela]

The critical difference is the climate -- in Rome buildings almost never experience the temperatures below water freezing.

[@clydedoris5002]

Detroit would undoubtedly decay faster because it freezes and unfreeze muilple times a year

[@broadcastmyballs]

Here in the Northern US, the weight of snow often speeds the collapse of abandoned buildings.

[@TheonormalMBV]

rome always got flooded though, it had its own weathering. thats why it was buried and they had to excavate it out

[@Typhoonoverwatch]

Rome had buildings in more than just Italy you know, it was a whole empire...

[@Blox117]

almost never means nothing when your lifespan has been 500x longer

[@busydadscooking001]

As someone who spends a decent amount of time near Detroit, I found this fascinating. For anyone thinking it must be horrible, Detroit is actually a decent place now that they've accepted the need to rightsize the whole operation, but it very much is like living in the ruins of a once great city that is no longer needed.

[@edwardmiessner6502]

Meanwhile the suburbs sprawl out into the hinterlands, almost to Flint.

[@sweeeetteeeeth]

@@edwardmiessner6502 one should never be more than a quarter mile from a walgreens, it simply would not do

[@Zoo-gt3cf]

Climate change will cause a population boom in the Midwest. Cities near large bodies of freshwater like Chicago, Detroit, and Cleveland will soon have an economic revival. Well Chicago never really lost their economy but it’ll end it being the financial capital of the US if parts of New York really do go underwater

[@Blox117]

remove the blaqs and watch the place turn back into a utopia

[@faithlesshound5621]

It must be like Southern Britannia after the Angles and Saxons took over. They built wooden sheds and mud huts in the fields for themselves, and left the brick and stone cities to fall down, later on calling them "the abode of giants."

[@elfarlaur]

Something to keep in mind is that although Rome's population declined, it didn't disappear. Some of the buildings which had been abandoned which had useful parts were also looted and scrapped (much like in Detroit), often for building materials to be used in other structures by those who remained. Reusing stone from a ruin nearby is much more economical than quarrying it far away and carrying it over (just as copper from the pipes of an abandoned house today).

[@tomtravis3077]

Reusing ancient building material in Rome was called 'spoila'. The emperor Majorian forbid the practice in the late 5th century AD in an attempt to preserve old buildings.

[@haroldbalzac6336]

Do you really think crackheads are reusing copper in their own houses? No, they selling it to a scrap yard for crack.

[@Blox117]

we dont use parts from abandoned buildings these days

[@KevinJames-yg9eu]

The same reason the pyramids in Giza are missing nearly all of their polished limestone casing...

[@sirrivet9557]

​@Blox117 not for building directly but people do take the materials and sell them for scrap metal. This scrap is usually melted down and reused in a lot of ways and it's a pretty big infustry. Many in places like Detroit both legally and illegally will scrap abandoned homes stripping out the copper wiring, aluminum siding, plumbing etc etc and sell it to scrap yard.

[@lilalmonds4595]

One thing I’ve always wondered is how the Anglo Saxons that lived in the town next to the abandoned London viewed the city, like no doubt kids went to explore it and it’d be so interesting to know what a child that grew up in a single room half buried house thought of the enormous walls and any surviving buildings just a short walk from their home

[@someopinion922]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ruin

[@GildaLee27]

Fall of Civilization Ep. 1 Roman Britain features that poem @@someopinion922 and mentions that while the later Anglo-Saxon homesteaders/invaders used the abandoned Londinium, for example, as a quarry, they also considered the ruins unlucky, cursed and haunted.

[@juhajuntunen7866]

Sure they think Aliens made it (or gods)?

[@1964_AMU]

They scrapped everything...

[@sneckotheveggieavenger9380]

The more learned knew them as ruins of the Romans. The less I formed thought they were the works of past giants

[@marcv2648]

When I lived in Oxford 20 years ago, I would walk along the river to Godstow Nunnery (Abbey). Originally built in the 1100s and abandoned in the 1600s. It is essentially completely abandoned, and open so there is no one stopping you from walking around. In the main part of the structure still standing, I would look up at the dilapidated stone walls and see the form fitted spaces that held the timber joists for a floor that once existed above. Seeing where those timbers once fit would always make it feel a little more personal, as I would think about the workmen who constructed it by hand hundreds of years ago. I would walk around and think about how this was once a fairly important place, and now it's a relic that people don't pay much attention to as they walk or jog by.

[@JM-mg4el]

Godstow is such a beautiful area. Great eating at the trout too

[@JohnFromAccounting]

That abbey was suppressed as a result of the dissolution of the monasteries. It was not naturally abandoned, it was forcibly closed, then looted for all its treasures. Over the years, like with most monasteries and abbeys, part of the masonry was taken by locals to build their homes.

[@VH-ew7oq]

Since the video is about Detroit, Michigan I thought you were talking about Oxford, Michigan which isn't far from Detroit. You can imagine my confusion when I read "built in the 1100s". Lol. I also imagine what the people used to do in abandoned places and about the people who built it. Always a strange solemn feeling. Like a cemetery.

[@EternalShadow1667]

Even weirder wandering around abandoned fortresses and the like. Funny to think that of their former importance and now they are just abandoned military infrastructure we call historic relics.

[@em-agan]

Fantastic sentiments. I’m studying historic preservation for the same reason :)

[@FlashDriveFilms]

In October 2003, I attended a car symposium at The Design Museum in London. One of the presentations was called "The Rise and Fall of Detroit: From Motor City to Murder City" and among the similarities the presenter pointed out between Rome and Detroit was that both had a Colosseum where citizen would go to watch sports that included Lions & Tigers.

[@mariaconcepcionrodriguezhe2850]

Did he say the nword?

[@knoway35951]

Sounds gross and exploitative

[@charlesmiv3842]

@@mariaconcepcionrodriguezhe2850fail

[@eugeniaamariei8626]

I don't understand the two replies here.

[@JR-hw3od]

​@@eugeniaamariei8626they assume the presentation has racist overtones with the term murder city.

[@tdpay9015]

Apt comparison. The farmers who kept animals among the ruins of Ancient Rome have a rough analogue in the interesting proposal some years ago to convert much of abandoned Detroit into Christmas Tree farms.

[@stormisuedonym4599]

Christmas tree farms - and not other agricultural products, because the lead in the soil makes it... tricky to grow food.

[@tdpay9015]

@@stormisuedonym4599 Exactly. They could grow trees, and maybe flowers, but not food.

[@Hashishin13]

I've seen borderline hobos doing what they call "guerilla grazing", which is raising some dairy goats on abandoned and public grass.

[@evancombs5159]

@@stormisuedonym4599 those trees would likely help to remove that lead from the soil so some day in the future it could be used for other products. In the mean time, the land is still useful without the expensive process of removing the lead by hand. You also get some of the benefits of planting trees, even though it would be a less than ideal tree planting scheme.

[@DetroitMicroSound]

Detroit is full of farms. The food is NOT all contaminated by lead, and other items.

[@Jody-kt9ev]

I grew up in an area that had an oil boom in the 1930s. The town that I went to high school in has been declining since 1930. What has happened to abandoned buildings there is that the flat roofs begin to leak, are not maintained and then rot and fall in. The masonry sides have mortar. The sealing on the mortar fails, is not fixed and ice and water cause it to fail. Then the walls fall. There is only one usable old brick building left in the town, the town museum witch is maintained. One a side note, I have read(do not know if it is true) that the forum of Trajan stood until the 800s AD. Then an earthquake knocked it down. As the Romans did no know much about how to earthquake proof buildings, this would not surprise me. Of course, we did not know how to design buildings to resist earthquakes until recently.

[@eriksmith6873]

What you say is correct -- that is, there are numerous sources indicating that a devastating earthquake around 850 A.D. caused substantial collapses of surviving Roman structures. But is it really true that the Romans didn't know how to build to resist earthquakes? I have seen photos of some surviving Roman structures with bricks mortared in at a diagonal angle. This makes them a bit more resistant to quakes. So there was some awareness of the problem and possible remedies. All I can say is that it's a pity more Roman structures weren't built with this method. More of them might survive to this day.

[@Jody-kt9ev]

@@eriksmith6873 I know the Pantheon has survived earthquakes to this day. Of course, it has always been maintained. The round shape also helps. I have also heard two reasons that half of the Colosseum fell is that the foundation on the side that fell was not as strong as the other side and that an earthquake is the reason for its fall. When I meant "not built to survive earthquakes", I was thinking of all the columns they used, just waiting to fall in an earthquake. I live in Texas and have seen how freeway overpasses are built here. I have in-laws in California and have seen how freeway overpasses are built there, completely steel re-enforced. The ones in Texas would fall like a house of cards in an earthquake.

[@cems.3144]

Which town is that declining since 1930s?

[@Jody-kt9ev]

@@cems.3144 Maud, Oklahoma and a lot of other Oklahoma oil boom towns. The oil boom peaked for a lot of areas around 1930. The ability to use fracking in some areas of Oklahoma has helped some towns, but not all by any means.

[@oxydayz]

@@Jody-kt9ev that whole state is so depressing, spent some time in okc and it would be a street of closed stores with only dispensaries open and homeless ppl everywhere, then the parallel street just the other side of those buildings was an austin/portland imitation with packed restaurants that had hour long wait times. literal modern day dystopia

[@Crooked-60]

Its crazy how fast the first two houses broke down, 2008 really isn't that long ago.

[@melkaman8200]

I question the 2008 timeline. Although things can decline quickly when not in use, I'm guessing that if those houses were being lived in in 2008, they were showing their age by that point.

[@LobotomyDC]

Those are burnouts. Most abandoned homes in detroit are victim to arson.

[@roccoliuzzi8394]

Stone is more durable than concrete because the steel reinforcing rods will eventually be corroded by water infiltration. At that point, the steel corrodes and expands blowing the structure apart from the inside.

[@samuelclemens6841]

Depending on the type of steel and concrete used that process can take hundreds of years

[@Hashishin13]

Funny that we add them for strength but they end up being the reason it falls apart faster than ancient concrete.

[@allangibson8494]

The Roman’s used reinforced concrete, the cement they used was self healing due to significant quantities of unmixed quicklime that prevented water infiltration to the imbedded iron straps. Reinforced concrete made with Portland cement need at least 2” of concrete over the rebar, 1” was however not uncommon in the early 20th century.

[@MrAwawe]

​@@allangibson8494no they didn't. They had concrete but it wasn't reinforced with rebar.

[@allangibson8494]

@@MrAwawe They have found iron straps imbedded in a number of Roman structures. Pliny made reference to the technique in 79AD. Iron is expensive however and only used where absolutely essential, like inside columns for earthquake resistance.

[@douglassun8456]

Brilliantly done, sir. Using present-day Detroit to illustrate your subject is both vivid (unfortunately for present-day Detroit) and time-efficient. I am also reminded of what John Keegan wrote in his book on warfare in North America about how quickly nature can reclaim what we abandon. Urban prairie, indeed.

[@TheSwissChalet]

I’m always amazed by people who live in large urban environments (most Europeans, for example), who think that man is destroying nature. Their frame of reference of nature is walking on a well-defined and well-trodden, government managed, highly restricted trail that they never dare to venture off of. They have never actually managed a piece of natural land, and have no idea what that entails. The amount of time and effort required to tame and hold back nature from completely taking over in a very short amount of time is enormous. You are right…nature DOES quickly reclaim what we abandon. There is no stopping it. Even in the case of supposed “lead poisoning”, etc…nature will produce weeds that will correct the “imbalance” wherever they are needed. Nature knows exactly what She’s doing.

[@zeltzamer4010]

⁠@@TheSwissChaletEarth and some kind of nature will almost definitely outlast the human race, but you’re sort of kidding yourself if you’re saying that we have no effect on it. Also lead poisoning is real. Not sure I’ve ever seen anyone deny that before actually.

[@capysarah]

​@swisschalet1658 "supposed 'lead poisoning'"? What's supposed about it?

[@capysarah]

​@@TheSwissChaletalso, if you're implying that overgrowth will fix the problem, explain how. Plants absorb some lead from soil, sure. That's why we warn people not to plant vegetable gardens directly in their backyard soil. But it wouldn't stop lead paint dust from sloughing off surfaces, or lead pipes from contaminating drinking water. Those are two much bigger sources of lead poisoning than soil.

[@edwardmiessner6502]

There's a difference between Rome and Detroit. In Rome, the buildings that survived were built from stone blocks, solid brick, and concrete made from pozzulan, a sort of volcanic cement. All these are capable of lasting 2,000 years and more. Detroit's buildings though, all have a structural steel, reinforced concrete, or wooden frame. The brick will be stripped from the houses and the remaining wood frame will rot away or burn down. The concrete frames will crumble due to the corrosion of the reinforcing steel within. The steel frames will rot from corrosion until they suddenly give way. Hardly anything will be present in the future Michigan prairie because of this!

[@BELCAN57]

I used to travel to the Detroit area on business in the 1980's . About 10 years ago I had the chance to go back on a business trip. The advance of decay was astonishing.

[@DetroitMicroSound]

Detroit today looks nothing like the Detroit of ten years ago. Detroit is coming back.

[@KevinJames-yg9eu]

The population of Detroit in 2010 was about 60% of what it was in 1980 and about 38% of its peak in 1950. When your city has almost 3x the infrastructure it needs, and 35% of the remaining population is in poverty, it doesn't take long for everything to fall apart.

[@DetroitMicroSound]

Which is why Detroit roads are being completely re-designed, to have dedicated bicycle lanes on major streets. Detroit is re-purposing roadways meant for a lot more car traffic, to now include bicycle traffic. That is a raising of public safety standards, and isn't a cheap endeavor. Detroit is going through a total revitalization, as we speak.@@KevinJames-yg9eu

[@johnperic6860]

@@DetroitMicroSound Yeah, three blocks are coming back.

[@johnperic6860]

@Goldsteinbergbaumthalowitz mizzzz what chu talking bout. Dat finna make no sense.

[@jason0870]

Great analog for ancient Rome's decay. This helped me visualize the process more fully. Thank you

[@Misses-Hippy]

That was a very interresting comparison. Trier has the Porta Negra and basillica that are huge and in super condition. Some WW2 bunkers in Germany are never going to deterriorate.

[@TheAlison1456]

this is amazing, I love how you're showing the buildings and you alongside them, not just one or the other

[@willbaren]

I was stunned at the effects of urban decay in Detroit, not being American and so not usually seeing such images on TV. Thanks so much for the comparison, it put Roman decay into context. Thanks so much.

[@stormisuedonym4599]

You can go just about anywhere and see similar instances of ruin. The only places you don't are where real estate makes demolition economically viable.

[@willbaren]

@@stormisuedonym4599 thanks. That’s depressing. There are no easy answers here but you can see how this would affect voting intentions if this was part of your everyday life and you’d been led to believe that America was in decline.

[@chibiromano5631]

Welcome to modern American Will. Many here alerady know we are in the post golden age but few just can't cope with realization that we are in a dark age. The strange part when entering the nearby stores of these ruins of detroit, inner cleveland, etc is happy worry free 80s'/90s music playing, like tears for fears, Madona, Whitney Houston. I would say America is actually more coming off of a Austro Hungarian Empire Age ( 1905,) and somehow its entering a Weimarch Republic stage. Many Americans right now are legit having these discussions on the emigration plan. Many of my friends who graduated college last year want to move to Europe (ireland, poland, Spain) etc . But the sense that there we live in a crumbling staet, mirrors that to what the romans would have thought in 400 ad. Now the question lies, who is that byzantium state (eastern empire) that watches from afar as their western counterpart jengas. Is it the UK or Canada or Australia? I bet Australia becomes the new byzantium.

[@brickman26levi15]

This video is incredible! The production quality is top tier and the content is fascinating but, at the same time short and not drawn out. Thank you for sharing I hope your channel does well!

[@michaelporzio7384]

Rome had the Renaissance, Detroit has the Renaissance Center. Garrett is a brave man to venture into the wasteland.

[@delphinazizumbo8674]

wild dogs with wilder men live in those climes they remember stories of Greatness and senses reel from the sights of Decline

[@di3727]

BuT thAt'S gEntRifCaTIon

[@delphinazizumbo8674]

what? when rich folks convince poor people to live in a wasteland? even the Latins moved to Ravenna after the repeated invasions of Visigoths@@di3727

[@michaelporzio7384]

@@delphinazizumbo8674 very appropriate, I can't place the quote, Lord Byron maybe?

[@delphinazizumbo8674]

probably a paraphrase...it's what I thought while watching @@michaelporzio7384

[@seamussc]

Rome lost its Caesars, and even though he was little, Detroit never lost its Caesar.

[@ninyaninjabrifsanovichthes45]

Pizza Pizza

[@SpinningSandwich]

Maya ruins are a great example of how dirt and trees can cover abandoned stone structures, even when they're quite large.

[@kathrynelrod5570]

“Rome’s fall was political. Detroit’s decline is basically economic.” I’m not so sure politics and economics are actually all that different. Economics is really a subset of politics.

[@kingnull2697]

Macroeconomics? Entirely political.

[@JohnFromAccounting]

The political centre of Rome was moved to Constantinople, and even the Catholic Church thought about going elsewhere.

[@pigslam]

you cant have one without the other so yes they are the same

[@jodofe4879]

This. Politics led to the bad economic circumstances that played a major role in Rome's decline and eventual near complete abandonment in the 6th century. Rome was dependent on imports of grain and oil. Most of this came from Africa. Once the Vandals conquered Africa and trade between that province and Rome had been disrupted, life in Rome simply became untenable for much of the population. This became even worse later on when trade with Sicily, another major source of grain and oil, was also disrupted.

[@barahng]

By political fall he means the government literally ceasing to exist or at least being unable to enforce the law. But yes, the policy choices of Detroit go hand in hand with its current economic position.

[@alexofswag]

Excellent video! You answered a question I never knew I wanted answered

[@technologic21]

I really appreciate the narration quality. Outstanding! Detroit and Pripyat are my two favorite examples of infrastructure.

[@dfgyuhdd]

It's pretty wild that there are a handful of cities on earth that have been continuously inhabited for over 5000 years, Detroit on the other hand rose and fell in less than 50. Some cities are larger than empires and others (despite their momentary hubris) are much smaller.

[@stormisuedonym4599]

Detroit was first settled in 1701, setting aside the native tribesmen who lived in the vicinity previously. It has been continuously inhabited since then, and presently has a population somewhere around 640 thousand. Although the white flight sparked by politics of revenge and the decline of the American auto industry from its protected heydey have seen some parts of the city degenerate into ruins, it's hardly accurate to make like it's gone.

[@circleinforthecube5170]

@@stormisuedonym4599 yeah its still a big american city with significant architecture new and old, the ren cen is one of the bigger modern buildings in the country and we are getting a brand new large international bridge, winsdor is still very much a thriving city aswell and ann arbor is a pretty good college town and the hudson towers going up. and we have plenty of space to build midrise dense developments

[@inurmomsbedroom123]

​@@stormisuedonym4599The whites were right

[@chrispfeiffer6905]

@@circleinforthecube5170 I keep seeing lots of new developments going on in Detroit. Only been to the airport but I have some faith - its overdue to turn a new leaf.

[@darrenfunk8440]

My guy was standing in front of those 2 houses, sweating and shifting around. Just praying to get through his script before he got jumped

[@MarkAppier]

Really good analogy that everyone can understand. I also liked how you explained where the breakdowns in the analogy were. Just as Rome was eventually reinvigorated, we can hope for better days for Detroit as well.

[@cassidy_c]

i mean, do we really need to hope? detroit bottomed out about a decade ago, although slow detroit’s been on a positive trajectory and you can really tell if you visit the downtown.

[@mandelbraught2728]

Thanks for a super interesting video. The comparison is better than I realized before watching. It's so interesting to think that those beautiful works of engineering and art were probably seen as just derelict wastelands and good sources for scrap. The old houses and factories in Detroit are also beautiful in their way and will become ever more so if some of them are preserved, I guess, just like Rome.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

An absolutely fascinating perspective. Grātiās!

[@josepheridu3322]

It also depends on the city. Just as some cities in USA are decaying, and you can argue the country is decaying too, there are also some cities growing and even thriving. In fact, a lot of these cities have dead zones while other zones are doing very well.

[@Maryland_Kulak]

Said without evidence

[@stormisuedonym4599]

@@Maryland_Kulak The evidence is out there. Go have a look. Even Detroit itself has areas that are growing and thriving while some parts have fallen into ruin.

[@mildly_miffed_man1414]

@@Maryland_Kulakmy evidence is looking out my window

[@BuzzworthyBand]

Drive through any rural area in the US and you will see plenty of decay. Living in rural Iowa, it has only increased in recent years.

[@oxydayz]

@@Maryland_Kulak living in the fastest growing us city, it's very apparent, no evidence needed

[@MrCheese1745]

I live in near Detroit. You wont find many people who actually live in the city - the majority of the population lives in "Metro" Detroit, sort of the equivalent of "Suburb of Chicago". Most of the land in Metro Detroit is being bought up by land developers, so it's very high value. By contrast, the City is literally selling plots of abandoned land for dirt cheap. If you buy a plot of abandoned land, the city will sell you the one next to it for $200 or so. It's not like that in all parts of the city, although it's not hard to find large sections of abandoned houses, factories, and apartments. There are some places like Gross Pointe which is an "old money rich" part of town, and man it shows. Then you've got places like Redford which have a mix of abandoned houses and fully populated streets within walking distance. Downtown is awesome though and is defiantly a hidden gem - people are trying to move back there in studio apartment's and they are expensive. It's a city rough around the edges, but it's got some really cool parts to it. Check it out if you haven't, just steer clear of these places in the video. Loved the video by the way if you got through these ramblings, thanks for showcasing some of Detroit's less polished parts.

[@sm3675]

From Google Map's satellite view, Detroit is very large!

[@MrCheese1745]

@sm3675 Yeah Detroit is a huge area. If you take the two furthest points, it can take 2 hours to drive from one to the other.

[@tvfan14]

2:56 The Packard Plant still had electricity roughly 10 years ago even after all of the damage, neglect and decay. There was an older man living in it. There is/was a video about him on KZbin.

[@djolley61]

A few beautiful buildings have been saved, restored, and repurposed, but most are in various stages of ruin. It's very sad to see a once glorious mansion with its roof collapsed and windows broken.

[@connorcscott]

This is an excellent 5-minute video. Very well done, well-written script!

[@57thorns]

This year I have come across two abandoned "settlements". One built in the 1945 and demolished in 1985. You could see where the roads had been as the trees still were not growing there, but the grass was high. Between the roads there hade been lots with houses, these now felt like natural forest. The best way to see the city plan is from above, where the regular lines are clearly visible. The other was built to house workers at a paper mill in the 1970s (when Sweden had a real boom in building houses) but already in the late 1980s the mill bought all of the houses and demolished them. Left now are a network of asfalt roads and you can still see the hedges. The difference is not just how long the place has been abandoned but also that the first one was intended as temporary worker housing, so there was very little in the form of hedges and other decorative plants. The second area was a newly minted middle class keen on showing off their wealth with their manicured hedges. At least until the smell from the paper mill and the affordability of cars made it possible to move further from the work place. Both show how quickly nature comes back, even if there is evidence for a very long time if you know where to look.

[@KingNik1994]

Extremely interesting. As someone studying the Roman Empire, I always love your videos. Thank you, Garrett!

[@markolson4660]

Very nicely done! My only quibble is that you make a distinction between a fall due to politics and one due to economics. They are inseparably intertwined: Rome was economically dependent in the rents the Empire collected on its behalf and when those ended, so did any economic justification. And Detroit's politics certainly assisted the economic decline. But that's a quibble.

[@llywrch7116]

In ancient times, politics & economic growth were inseparateably connected. If a ruler moved the seat of government from city A to city B, inevitably city A would decline; the rich people would have no incentive to live in city A, & the services & housing that went into supporting these rich types would go away. (A similar effect can be seen during the 18th century, when the estates of the British elite were an important economic engine for the nearby villages. If the mansions did not exist, there would be no demand for food, or skilled labor, & the only jobs available would be farming or as a hired hand.) This process is seen, in part, when the seat of the Western Roman Empire from Rome to Ravenna: while buildings decayed in Rome during the 5th, 6th, & 7th centuries, Ravenna enjoyed a flourishing of monumental structures. Of course, Rome never was completely abandoned. The Roman Senate continued to operate until the 6th century, when the Gothic Wars liquidated it. And the Papacy was an important political presence in Rome, & was a major employer up until the 14th century when it moved to Avagnon.

[@nanashi7779]

@@chrisbararata9934 why would it be seen as politically incorrect

[@galaxyn3214]

This thing all things devours: Birds, beasts, trees, flowers; Gnaws iron, bites steel; Grinds hard stones to meal; Slays king, ruins town, And beats high mountain down.

[@Aroverlord]

“Basically economic” glosses over a lot lol

[@johnwallace2319]

what a thoughtful theme

[@paulineb66]

Abandoned buildings are fascinating. You get to wonder what they were like before, and you get to see nature reclaiming the land.

[@muiscnight]

I literally had a thought about this how awesome you made a video on it

[@DetroitMicroSound]

These areas in Detroit, are fewer every day, because Detroit is on the comeback.

[@drownthepoor]

One thing to note about Detroit vs Rome is the climate. Rome is Mediterranean, and therefore rarely if ever experiences freezing temperatures. There's a lot of moisture, and maybe even salt. But Detroit is a wet city that freezes each year, and therefore the buildings will undergo a much harsher weathering.

[@JohnSmith-zw8vp]

You know when I see abandoned half ruined houses like these, I can't help but wonder/imagine what they were like when (and just how far back when) they did have people/families living in them.

[@SpaveFrostKing]

Sometimes you can see the houses in their glory (and their decline) on google maps!

[@JohnSmith-zw8vp]

@@SpaveFrostKing They don't go very far back though

[@SpaveFrostKing]

@@JohnSmith-zw8vp Some of the houses weren't abandoned until after google maps started mapping everything

[@DrystHawk]

You know your city is in bad shape when you literally see a historian comparing your cities’ abandoned factories and crack houses to the crumbling ruins of Ancient Rome.

[@charm359]

At my primary school in the uk they knocked down an old church which was on the school property but instead of taking the rubble away like we normally do today they just put grass seeds on it all like they did in Ancient Rome. I didn’t even know about it until I asked why the teachers wouldn’t let us play on the massive green field and it was because apparently they didn’t want us hurting ourselves on the rubble especially in the winter. Oh but they did let us run around on concrete and play football on it so you know

[@flashypork]

Cinematography is on point in this one!

[@Fredreegz]

"Rome's fall was political. Detroit's decline is basically economic". I think most historians would contest this. Look at the debasement of Roman coinage throughout the dominate period, or the severing of internal trade routes by the crisis of the third century, or disparity in economic development between Latin west and Greek east halves of the empire.

[@bevo65]

3:15 - When that car drove by, I feared for you. Nice job remaining calm.

[@Egilhelmson]

Much as automotive plants moved out of Detroit to the South, the capital of Italy moved from Rome to Ravenna. This reduced the city populatìon in each case.

[@krillin876]

People fleeing Detroit because of politics of corrupt politicians it's not because necessarily of the auto companies.

[@NathanRae]

Why isn't this on the main channel? Great video.

[@dystopik32]

Interesting Comparison, Good work

[@JP-vs1ys]

this is brilliant and really helpful. awesome content as usual.

[@A3Kr0n]

Buildings fall down and the land reverts back to the way it was. What an interesting concept. I've never thought of that.

[@TheSwissChalet]

Lol

[@verraque]

i like your speaking voice and cadence. i’d watch a long-form documentary if you made one.

[@JP-1990]

Are we going to bring up the black elephant in the room?

[@martybadboy]

0:45 Buddy, they strip the brick too and sell it to the brick yards. It's then sold as "reclaimed" and "historic". Greetings from a Detroit demolition company.

[@q3hdi]

The fall of Rome wasn't just a sudden political collapse; it was the end result of a protracted deterioration across the entire spectrum of Roman life. This included economic stagnation, military overextension, social upheaval, and the erosion of civic virtues and institutions. These factors, which were collectively more significant than any single political event, were indicative of a civilisation in its decline. Similarly, the problems facing the West today- economic inequality, political polarisation, moral decay, cultural fragmentation, and disappearance of long standing, once-organic institutions and rise of bureaucratic structures- mirror this historical pattern; that what we are seeing is not just a series of independent political or economic crises, but a broader cultural and societal shift reflective of a civilisation in the latter stages of its life. This pattern of rise, dominance, and eventual decline is inevitable and characteristic of the cyclical nature of civilisations.

[@Navak_]

ah, a tinge of melancholy for my rainy sunday morning. this was art, thank you

[@ogrejd]

Many parts of the Detroit area are incredibly sad. That area of Highland Street from 55 up, past 111, all the way to to its end at Hamilton is ruin after ruin after ruin - and empty lots where ruins quite obviously used to be. (just did a tour via Google Maps Street View) :(

[@DeclanMBrennan]

Certainly sad for those with dashed hopes and dreams, but it depends on your point of view. Nature starting to shake off its concrete straight-jacket and re-establish itself is oddly comforting. However much we mistreat her, the Earth Abides.

[@osasunaitor]

I just checked and those abandoned Detroit streets still look prettier than normal streets in many areas of my country lol

[@johnnyblaze3605]

Wait, what? What do you mean by 55 and 110. Detroit doesn't have numbers streets they're named, correct?

[@ogrejd]

@@johnnyblaze3605 "Detroit area", I said. Like with all the cities that make a continuous urban area around Los Angeles where you couldn't tell you've moved from one to another without signs telling you so, few of us not from the Detroit region care that Highland Park, Dearborn, etc are technically their own citiea - it's all just "Detroit" to us.

[@johnnyblaze3605]

You said ""That area from 55 up past 111" and I'm just trying to figure out where that's at. I was looking at Google maps in highland Street doesn't intersect with any roads named 55 or 111. Are those Street addresses?

[@beminem]

great visual comparisons

[@osscouter]

During World War II, Detroit was the pinnacle of productivity in the United States. Today, it's nothing more than a blight on the landscape. A sad commentary for a once great city.

[@Mirokuofnite]

Detroit 1945 vs Hiroshima 1945. Then compare the two now.

[@circleinforthecube5170]

thats a harsh generalization of an entire city, detroits downtown is getting better and better each day, we have some absolutely amazing architecture new and old including some of the best ornamental american architecture period AND the best brutalist lobby, a brand new bridge, a new skyscraper, Detroit may have fallen but its still a city albiet a smaller one

[@scottkrafft6830]

@@Mirokuofnite 🦍vs. 🗼

[@TheSwissChalet]

@@circleinforthecube5170 best brutalist lobby?? Like that’s a good thing?

[@agibitable]

"Rome's fall was political, Detroit's fall is economic" brother you just said the same thing twice

[@steveoh9285]

I bet they didn’t have thugs riding chariots down the street and blasting rap music at all hours of the day and night.

[@jasonflay8818]

This is one of the best videos made describing the formation of archaeological sites. I wish this was made when I taught my into to archaeology class. When l speak with the public, they often don't understand how structures end up underground, because as you state they decay and the landscape refers to what came before.

[@adriaticzephyr]

I think a lot of people still think Detroit looks like this everywhere. It doesn’t. Lots of new buildings (many of them ugly) but it’s a start at least. Crime is going down finally and there’s an slight influx of more people.

[@sgtsodium6472]

That was a very cool comparison!

[@eriksmith6873]

On the basis of one of the comments below, I called up Google Street View and started taking a trip down Highland Street in Detroit. Whaddya know? Right past the boundary between Detroit and Highland Park, at 111 Highland Street, I found the first apartment building featured in this video. The unburned one. So strange to see the occasional intact building standing amid vacant lots where other structures once stood. It boggles my mind that so much of this ruination took place in just the last 15 years. Every now and again, you see a home still standing, perfectly intact and well-maintained. I guess that shows the importance of home ownership. Where houses had been rentals, it was easy for their occupants to skip.

[@TheSwissChalet]

Home ownership and individual stewardship of the land is THE ONLY system that has created the society we know today.

[@kevincousino2276]

Yeah, but someone owns the rentals too. Abandoned homes have the heat off, pipes freeze, snow builds up on the roof, bad things happen. An abandoned home in a warmer climate might look better. Just grass and weeds growing like crazy.

[@TheSwissChalet]

@@kevincousino2276 No, not every rental is owned by “someone”. Oftentimes the owner cannot meet financial obligations regarding building maintenance and upkeep due to unreasonable regulations of the city/county/township, etc, inflation of construction material and labor, failure of tenants to pay rent (that’s a big one!), excessive tax burdens, adjustment of non-fixed mortgage rates affecting the payment, exorbitant sudden insurance rate increases, legal issues, predatory environmental regulations, among other reasons. So the “owners” abandon the building by walking away, going into foreclosure, or filing bankruptcy. When a building doesn’t produce income, you cannot magically snap your fingers and make money appear. Without income from the building, repairs won’t happen. So, the property can go into legal limbo, be purchased by the city, who then do nothing with it. They may offer it for sale through a foreclosure auction, or sheriff’s sale, but no one buys it…why would anyone want an apartment building where the tenants don’t pay? Why would anyone want a building that is so over regulated that you can never make a profit from it? They don’t. That’s why these buildings are ubiquitous.

[@kevincousino2276]

@@TheSwissChalet you are describing an abandoned house. A rental is not abandoned. It has renters paying rent to an owner. If tenants dont pay, they are squatters, not tenants.

[@TheSwissChalet]

@@kevincousino2276 Many buildings he shows in this video are multi-family rental buildings. Some are 2-family duplexes. Any house can be abandoned...multi-family or single family. If renters don't pay and "become" swatters, that is another reason why owners abandon such properties...the law favors the squatters. Why bother maintaining a property when someone else is living in it and not paying you anything? This applies to a single family home with squatters, or an apartment house.

[@genghisron9876]

ToldInStone field trip!! Great video

[@postmelon4733]

bro thinks the fall of Detroit wasn't political

[@WagesOfDestruction]

As a kid I lived in an area that had such abandoned places. As kids we used to enjoy playing in this houses

[@BloBlas123]

now you have to explain why places like detroit are extremely depressing while visiting ancient run down cities on the other hand are something we'd like to do on holidays

[@DukeofBlasphemy]

modern architecture is crap

[@timbosinius3653]

Awesome video and comparison. It is a great reminder that change is the only constant.

[@oopy354]

0:05 Yes, Economic Americans.

[@Charlie-hv3dh]

Always weird seeing detroit online and recognizing where it is im seeing

[@davidmajer3652]

Very interesting stuff. We can only understand the past by understanding the present.

[@deathsheadknight2137]

and vice versa

[@PeopleWatchingMarcus]

best video the algorithm has recommended in weeks

[@melissa502]

Being a lifelong Detroiter, I gotta say the downfall of the city was politics. Once one party took control sixty years ago and never gave it up, things have gone downhill as destructive policies were applied and allowed to destroy everything. The successful people in Detroit left to make the surrounding tri-county area one of the richest in the country. I'm sure the fall of Rome had a lot to do with politics, as well.

[@AUniqueHandleName444]

Funny how only one party seems to destroy cities when they take over.

[@1685Violin]

Whoa, you are very close to the edge of offending the globalist sophists with bleeding hearts there. I mean the "ef bee eye" can't be liars, isn't it? (Misspelt to prevent censorship).

[@orionsmith782]

this was a great video thanks for making it

[@Jaxck77]

Rome’s fall was economic. Without the agricultural resources of Egypt flowing into Italy, Rome could not feed itself. It’s really hard to grasp from a modern perspective just how unproductive farming was in the classical era. It’s one of the many reasons the “dark ages” was a total myth. Farming technology had many breakthroughs during those centuries as people were allowed to innovate instead of being forced to serve Rome.

[@EmeraldView]

After being abandoned the brick house is in better shape than the wood house! Woah!!!!!!! You sir have just blown.... BLOWN my mind! Wish I could be so smart. 😕

[@Thomas-wn7cl]

The rusting rebar in the reinforced concrete of modern buildings makes the structure subject to spalling, which can hasten the undermining of the building. A structure that relies on rebar for spandrels and other load bearing columns and beams will fail as the steel rebar rusts, expands, and eventually fails. So while a modern building may be stronger because of rebar, it sacrifices longevity. The ancients did not use rebar in the modern application. While a earthquake may knock the buildings of ancients down more easily than their modern equivolent, they were mostly designed not to need rebar, giving them more longevity when time and basic weather are the only factor.

[@stormisuedonym4599]

You should probably factor in survivorship bias and think about how many ancient buildings _didn't_ make it very far. Pointing to the well-made monuments and declaring the ancients built for better longevity is hardly accurate.

[@emilianozamora399]

Ancient engineers were good at their jobs but much of the effort was put into it being able to stand at all. Today we can make any building we want but to make it in an efficient way is the hard part

[@Klongu_Da_Bongu]

Not to spill on your parade, but rebar is very advanced. It's one of the things that makes us "modern". I think you need to cut ol mister R some slack.

[@VeinsByEarl]

2:50 do you think that building has any copper wire left?

[@JoJoJoker]

Detroit’s fall is economic due to politics and Rome’s fall was political due to economics...

[@someopinion922]

Detroit's fall is economic, due to declining skill in progressively dumbing hedonistic population leading to declining quality of wares produced leading to loss of sales and income. Rome s fall was economic, due to declining skill in progressively dumbing hedonistic population leading to declining quality of wares produced leading to loss of sales and income.

[@Hongaars1969]

This was so interesting and totally relatable. Thank you

[@Deadlyhxm]

Purely economic factors

[@redcat9436]

So the people had nothing to do with it?

[@AnonymousAnonposter]

Despise being only 13% of the population...

[@baa0325]

The riot didn’t help.

[@rickdeckard7098]

Yup economics from before the American civil war.

[@mbe102]

"Load-bearing curtains" LMFAO

[@HighWealder]

Many Roman insulae or apartment buildings were very badly built, inhabited by poor people and some collapsed while occupied.

[@allangibson8494]

So pretty much just like Detroit?

[@AsiaMinor12]

​@@allangibson8494Just like America. Most houses in America are made from garbage materials and are not built to last. If population declined somewhere in America then those houses quickly decay and disappear.

[@matthewg7228]

I can see similar patterns here in St. Louis, where almost all old buildings are brick. Abandoned houses eventually become roofless shells.

[@RyanonBasss]

wish you had included the Train Station in southwest Detroit. it was abandonned for decades, and just a couple years ago renovated into an office building. the next gen of Detroiters, we're trying our best.

[@AmosAmerica]

Wow! What a great scholarly video! Very impressive sir!

[@haywoodyoudome]

Rome didn't suffer from an infestation of Basketball Americans.

[@martinblank1484]

It was economics dummy...

[@T_Mo271]

That's a very interesting set of parallels.

[@NGCS-ej4lz]

Demographics is Destiny. Meanwhile...in Japan and many parts of untouched Europe.

[@martinblank1484]

Japan has been in steady decline since the 90's and it's just getting worse. It's a wee bit more complex that you are making it out to be...

[@someopinion922]

China is still full of Chinese ... oh it is a calamity. Isn't it kind of racist, though?

[@zarategabe]

No ancient society ever moved its economy away from the center to underdeveloped peripheries. Then again, ancient times never had industrialization or globalization. Detroit's problem is like so much of the USA in that it's been completely de-industrialized.