Did Dave and Dan Hate Stannis? | How Will Jaime and Brienne's Storyline End in Winds of Winter?

Friend of the podcast, Glidus, put out an interesting tweet about Jaime and Brienne and asked why it seemed like Dave and Dan hated Stannis. We also go into where both their storylines could lead in Winds.
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House of the Dragon is an American fantasy drama television series created by George R. R. Martin and Ryan J. Condal for HBO. It is a prequel to the television series Game of Thrones and is based on Martin's 2018 novel Fire & Blood. Set two hundred years before the events of Game of Thrones, the series chronicles the beginning of the end of House Targaryen, the events leading up to the Targaryen civil war, known as the "Dance of the Dragons", and the war itself. The main contenders are Houses Targaryen, Hightower, Stark, Baratheon, Arryn and Velaryon.
Game of Thrones is an American fantasy drama television series created for HBO by David Benioff and D. B. Weiss. Based on the fantasy novel series, A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin. The series is set on the fictional continents of Westeros and Essos, and interweaves several plot lines with a large ensemble cast. The first narrative arc follows a civil conflict among several noble houses for the Iron Throne of the Seven Kingdoms; the second covers the attempts to reclaim the throne by the exiled last scion of the realm's deposed ruling dynasty; the third chronicles the rising threat of the impending winter, the legendary creatures and fierce peoples of the North.
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[@TPutnam]

Carmine "real quick before I let you go..." Preston "Huh..." *TWENTY TWO MINUTES LATER*

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

This is such an issue with me hahaha. When I start streaming I'll bring in some KZbinrs who can attest to the fact that I always tell people I'm about to call that it'll be quick and it ends up being 2 hours

[@TPutnam]

@@OfficialRedTeamReview Hey, never change! We love the extra time. :)

[@ladylauren4989]

@@OfficialRedTeamReview😂

[@ZoomReverseFlash]

@@OfficialRedTeamReview Hey, at least that makes for good videos, so thank you both for that haha.

[@aegonthedragon7303]

D&D definitely had a negative view of Stannis; giving a pretty skewed characterization of him as a crude zealot who is so power hungry he would kill kids just win a chair, never compromising like he does during his book campaign. In an interview Weiss basically does the meme of Stannis would be a bad king because he doesn’t have friends like Renly does. The disappointment with season 5 isn’t entirely because people built an expectation over the book, it’s because D&D had him lose in the most contrived way possible.

[@realdaggerman105]

“20 men snuck into your camp of thousands of people and burned everything.” “All your horses are gone. Oh, also half your soldiers. Yes, I know it’s Winter and this motley crew of Essosi sellswords and Southron knights will all starve in the vast emptiness of the North without a holdfast like Winterfell to shelter in, they left anyway.” “No, your grace, no one saw Bolton leaving his castle despite the fact the gate is in clear view until they came over the hills right now.” “Battle formation? What’s that? Now isn’t a time for games, my king, the best living strategist in Westeros, they are engaging us as we speak!”

[@MiddleEarthGirl75]

And yet I didn't see him as power hungry. Just desperate to do what he sincerely thought was the right thing to do on behalf of the protection of the realm. I never got the impression he actually /wanted/ to be King. Just that he knew succession meant that he was.

[@lordsifi6586]

The thing that draws book fans to Stannis is that he is the rightful heir, the crowd favorite (Ned Stark) died trying to put Stannis on the throne, he was treated pretty shitty by his brothers his whole life and just kind of bore it silently until it was his turn to be king, and he has that moment where he tells one of his men to buy mercenaries and put his daughter on the throne if he dies, which is the opposite of what happens in the show.

[@georgerivas8051]

Stannis actually does have the honor that Ned and Catelyn only play at having. I loved when Davos called him out for supporting his brother over Aerys and he immediately owned up to compromising his principles and how badly that haunted him.

[@randallwalsh3919]

​@@georgerivas8051Ned is far more honorable than Catelyn and a lil more than Stannis. Stannis, however, is almost certainly the most dutiful and lawful character in the series

[@fightingmedialounge519]

I wouldn't say that's the reason.

[@master-jager]

From his theme song being probably the most villanous in the show, to him being portrayed as this clueless puppet of Melisandre, they definitely had something against Stannis. His areholeness in the show also make him way more tyrannical, like how Stannis dismisses his sergeant's fear of losing hundreds of men in the Blackwater: "hundreds will die!" "*snorts* Thousands"

[@aegonthedragon7303]

Ehh the thousands line is more him knowing the guy is lying to himself about the real cost the battle will bring

[@master-jager]

@@aegonthedragon7303 it seemed more to me that he was just being callous about the number of dead that it would take to conquer the city for him

[@baswar]

Tbf i took it as much about him being honest. He doesn't snort he just corrects him. Its war he knows the cost and he isn't gonna delude himself or others about it. But yeh its pretty cold blooded all the same

[@strikemasterice2004]

Lets not forget that he was also the first one on the beach to storm Kings Landing. He wasn't callous, he was just being very matter of fact.

[@extraplain2412]

That "thousands" line was one of the things that made me like the character initially. Compared to the other characters in the show by that point it was refreshing to see a soldier esque character getting his hands dirty. Joffrey was a coward and we barely saw Robb Stark fighting.

[@mns2137]

First Stannis scene in the show is pretty perfect. Him correcting everything the maester says so it reflects the cold hard facts - it’s hard to dislike the character after that scene alone

[@louisroy4911]

Indeed, such a great first impression. I was waiting for them to mention that scene

[@alexleen975]

Totally agree, it's the "a good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad to good" line but in practice and it's hilarious.

[@701delbronx8]

I watched the show only and Stannis was my favorite because he demonstrated the most realistic leadership qualities

[@TurquoiseStar17]

Coupled with the fact Stephen Dillane didn't really care about being on Game of Thrones, he was a perfect casting for their version of Stannis.

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

truuue

[@kimberlygl36]

He was so perfect for Stannis

[@KramYEET]

out of curiosity how do you know he didnt care about being on the show? was there an interview or something where he talks about it. he was pretty good in the role and would have nailed the beats of book Stannis if given the chance

[@TurquoiseStar17]

@@KramYEET Yes. This is what he said - "I don't regret doing Game of Thrones, but I have nothing to say about it. I didn't understand the series nor its success when I was a part of it. The experience has been weird, it really passed me by. For a role to please me, I have to be interested in it, which was not really the case. I was a bit overwhelmed by everything that happened. It was difficult because it [the show] is a huge machine."

[@KramYEET]

@@TurquoiseStar17 damn thats brutal. maybe if D&D hadnt left out all the nuance of Stannis' character he would have been more interested :/ still, he did a great job with what he was given.

[@keirangrant1607]

We also saw The Mannis thru Theon's chapter and he was every bit as awesome as Ser Davos makes him out to be. Carmine dont hate on the Great. Like Preston always says, The Mannis is not rigid. He's very adaptable and low key hilarious. Ser Too Fat To Sit A Horse..... Come on now. All those lines against the Freys...... RIP to The Mannis. Gone but not forgotten. Lol.

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

fair

[@pauldaskal9510]

Between the lines he was willing to kill his blood to accelerate his ascension to the throne. So ultimately entitled and greedy...but he is easy to like....like an asshole gym teacher.

[@Galero15]

@@OfficialRedTeamReviewyou have a habit of condescending like you’re above it all with the fandom, it’s bizarre given your own level of investment, and annoying

[@Baratheon.]

It's all Martin's POV. Character's are going to view him differently (Asha is a Greyjoy and Stannis smashed their rebellion). Martin has built a lot of consensus about Stannis via all the POV's, including Ned & Tywin. The one indisputable thing about him is the military prowess, and the bizarre info we get , like that he knows the strength of every House in Westeros (even the small ones)

[@keirangrant1607]

@@Galero15 I dont think that's what Carmine was doing.

[@authorfarrell7161]

They played villain music when he saved The Wall.

[@robslebowski6776]

I think thats fine, they played a heroic version of his theme when he marched out of castle black with his army. The first time his theme didnt sound dark, only to end up like he did in the end. D&D are a shame.

[@prajawalgurung6121]

Then they played more hopeful and positive music when the bolton army marched at stannis

[@robslebowski6776]

@@prajawalgurung6121 I wouldn’t consider it “hopeful” more like “tragic end/inevitable end”. Thats how I interpret it

[@prajawalgurung6121]

@@robslebowski6776 when the Bolton army arrived they played the "heroic" sounding part but when it showed Stannis unsheathing his sword with his army that's when the music gave me the "tragic/inevitable end" vibe.

[@fitz7231]

Just thought to bring it up since you guys touched on the issue of Stannis' death - not a lot of people that I've seen discussing Stannis talk about the fact that he knows his cause doesn't end with him sitting on the Iron Throne. He shares with Davos he has a vision of a King whose crown burns him to ash. Stannis knows he is going to die in the course of trying to save the world- and I think that's worthy of more discussion when talking about his character.

[@kelvito1]

Dave and Dan hated everyone not named Arya, Sam, Pod, or Bronn.

[@Longshanks1690]

Ever since I heard Preston discuss Brienne having to kill Stoneheart as a mirror to Aerys, I’ve been convinced that this is how their story will end in the book. And if for some reason George doesn’t take it that way, it’s an active disservice to them. It’s just too perfect thematically. After spending so much of Storm looking down on him for being an oathbreaker and going so far as to murder his charge, Brienne being put in the same situation and having to slaughter “Catelyn” who is no longer the woman she swore an oath to is top perfect a conclusion to their story. It ties together the themes of honour and knighthood being empty words compared to what’s actually right, the social pressure to “do your duty” being little more than a charade for “just following orders” and pushing Brienne’s morality to the test as its easy to keep an oath when there’s no conflict but when Stoneheart is an active threat to the innocent and she has to choose between killing Cat like Jaime had to with Aerys or let her continue and simply say “But I did my duty?” I’m not confident about much in TWOW, even about things I think are likely to happen. But this? It’s the only way these characters can go, and George will be wrong if he takes it any other way. (Assuming that the book ever comes out that is, which it never actually will. 😂)

[@randallwalsh3919]

Considering the constant parallels between Dunk and Brienne, I wonder if her turning on Catelyn could lend insight into what happened at Summerhall

[@miguelsanchez825]

I agree with what you said but I really think Arya NEEDS to meet Stoneheart for her arc, after that maybe Brienne could be the one that does it because it will be too tragic for Arya to do so.

[@idiotsmonthly3969]

What I love about Stannis is that he's one of the few characters in the series who gets an arc (at least in the books). The Davos/Stannis story in Storm of Swords is one of my favorites because we get to see the most stubborn character in the series actually change his mind about something. He decide that his duty to the kingdom supersedes his "right" to sit the throne and that if he wants to be the "protector of the realm," he has to put his money where his mouth is. Another thing about Stannis is that he's currently acting as a conciliator, bring three distinct cultures/religions to common cause under his banner. It's a lot of fun watching aDwD/WoW Stannis walk that tight rope. Also, whenever other leaders/contenders for the throne die, it's due to some kind of fatal mistake. Robert constantly eschews his duties, running off the hunt in the Kingswood whenever there's a crisis, and that's where he gets gored by a boar. Robb makes a series of naive political decisions which culminate in the Red Wedding. Tywin is a master at politics but a horrible father, and his mistreatment of his children eventually catches up with him. To kill off Stannis would be to say that his going north was a fatal mistake - and likewise trying to unite different cultures and different banners is a fatal mistake; or that to respond to a distress call from your subjects is a mistake; or to stand against corrupt, abusive leaders like the Boltons is a mistake. I dunno, man - Stannis is too interesting to just kill off, but you can't have him win everything either. Stuck between a rock and hard place. No wonder Winds is taking so long. What do you do?

[@NoOne-vb2du]

Nah, they really did Stannis dirty, mainly by upping up the mesiah complex and toning down the fierce loyalty he had to Robert(even if he didnt like him) And look in "Inside the Episode" for Garden of Bones, Dan goes on and on how Stannis would be a terrible king and how it should be obvious for anyone. Now I doubt that interview segment is what makes people think they hated him as I doubt anyone saw it or even remembers it but its clear they subtly steered him into a more villainous direction before they killed him off.

[@iron_captain]

The difference between Jaime and Briennes kingslaying is that Jaime was saving Kingslanding and Brienne killed Stannis at a time he is already beaten and not a danger to anyone. D&D made Brienne the more evil person also because she exactly knew about Jaimes struggles. It's like f*** your problems Jaime i dont care.

[@fox2569]

Her killing Stannis was purely out of vengeance, Jaime killing Aerys was a noble act that needed to be done

[@domhuckle]

Brienne abandoning duty for revenge is baffling

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

@@domhuckle And is not punished for it as well. I think the writers probably thought it was "badass" lol I would started Season 7 with her standing on trial at Winterfell for killing Stannis and leaving her post. She admited to killing Stannis to Davos and Jon respected Stannis a lot. And on paper he was the One True King declared by Ned Stark, Jon's father as well.

[@tuneablestar1712]

People suspected D&D of hating Stannis even before he got killed. There was an interview from one of the earlier seasons where Dan explicitly said "Stannis would be a terrible king".

[@user-uq4gr5nl5o]

I mean, is he wrong?

[@realdaggerman105]

@@user-uq4gr5nl5o I would argue yes. He would at least be a better king than Renly.

[@user-uq4gr5nl5o]

@@realdaggerman105 How? He would be just another soldier who doesn't understand politics trying to play king.

[@randallwalsh3919]

​@@user-uq4gr5nl5oHe wouldn't get the crown into 4 millions gold of debt, for starters. His ascetic lifestyle would make him instantly more capable than half of the previous kings

[@realdaggerman105]

@@user-uq4gr5nl5o​​⁠​⁠​​⁠ He is at least somewhat an advocate for meritocracy - see the lowborn Davos appointed Hand of the King. He is someone who doesn’t waste gold and resources on frivolous things whilst in crippling debt. Unlike Renly, who even during the march to take the throne did nothing but host jousts and screw roses. He is not nearly as clueless a politicker as Ned. He already figured Cersei’s bastards heritage before Ned did, and started preparing for war on dragonstone. He can swing religious extremists to his favour, even if he himself at most half-believes. He also takes advice. Jon’s advice to unite the relatively unimportant mountain clansmen behind Stannis at first sounds unorthodox. But he takes this and applies it, gaining many loyal, skilled, winter-experienced warriors. He is just. A King’s Landing under Stannis is not a King’s Landing figures like Pertr Baelish or Varys or even Pycelle would be tolerated in. Men with divided loyalties who undermine the throne to promote war. Someone like Renly might think he knows who these people are and try to control them, but Stannis knows that’s a fools errand. He is a soldier. Now, George likes to say soldiers make bad rulers. But what textual evidence is there for this? Aegon ‘the Conqueror’ was a legend, and a warrior-king. Jaehaerys was also a warrior, though definitely more of a diplomat. Robert was a warrior, and though he did royally screw the treasury and indirectly caused a civil war, he had a good decade and a half of almost unbroken peace and plenty. Jon Arryn, a hand who was widely loved and respected was a warrior. Ned Stark, who is possibly the most universally beloved contemporary ruler in the series was a warrior with no sense for politics. All the worst characters morally and often stewardship-wise are non-warriors. Littlefinger, an unassuming scheming cutthroat acknowledges he won’t win any battles. He caused the War of the Five Kings. Varys, the deceitful spymaster who conceals helpful truths from those who could actually ensure peace, and sees the world as a mummers play in his goal to get some random boy on the Throne instead. Cersei, a deluded schemer who singlehandedly restores one of the most destabilising forces, the faith militant, to power, only to immediately fall victim to it. Joffrey, who is not only a psychotic boy-king but a cowardly loser hiding behind his mothers skirts when real danger comes his way. The list goes on. So, yeah. He’d be much better than Renly.

[@TheRoguePrince0]

Not only is brienne, a kingslayer she's also an oath breaker. House tarth, is sworn to house baratheon. So she didn't just kill her rightful king she also killed her rightful lord.

[@lburrsshinyhunts2253]

Ya’ll talking about her supposedly killing Stannis on the show?

[@hotchic4000]

She is a kingslayer. She's not an oath breaker tho, she's never said any vows, or made any promises. Jamie is an oathe breaker because he said the kings guard vows, which hold him to protecting his king. He's not an oath breaker because his house was sworn to the Targaryens, and turned away but because he literally killed the man he personally vowd to protect And while brienne is a sworn rainbow guard, that guard was meant to protect the king they choose (renly), not the rightful king, so again she made no oath to keep stannis safe, that she broke by killing him, and therefore isnt an oath breaker

[@TheRoguePrince0]

@@hotchic4000 brienne, is an oath breaker and a kingslayer. She murdered her rightful king and liege lord. That makes her an oath breaker and a kingslayer.

[@hotchic4000]

@@TheRoguePrince0 but to be an oath breaker you have to break an OATH she never made an oath not to kill her rightful king, she is treasonous killing her rightful king but not an oath breaker. Jaime made an oath, he spoke the words and bound himself to protect the king or else lose his life and honor. Brienne made no such promises. Everyone in the kingdom is bound to serve and protect their king, by that logic everyone who fought the king on the other side is an oath breaker. Jaime is an oath breaker because he spoke the words, he personally made a promise and broke it. Brienne never made any oaths or promises, to anyone but renly and Caitlin, if she had killed either of those people, or if she killed or sold out the stark kids, then she would be an oath breaker because thats the only oath she is bound to with renly dead.

[@TheRoguePrince0]

@@hotchic4000 house tarth, is sworn to house baratheon. King Stannis, is her liege lord+king and when she murdered him thats what makes her an oath breaker. If you kill your liege lord that makes you an oath breaker.

[@belisarius7880]

We saw in one of the talks with dave and dan after the episode, they talked smack on stannis. Dan straight up said he thought renly was a good king and stannis was a bad king. They took away Stannis's coolest moments and gave them to Jon. The Battle at the wall was cut down to 5 minutes, while they completely created out of nothing an entire episode for jon at hardhome. Its clear they hated stannis, they said as much themselves. UPDATE: Game of Thrones, Season 2, Inside Episode 4, watch it, Dan Weiss says it plainly.

[@Longshanks1690]

I don’t interpret that as “hate” as much as disinterest. They believe in showy, feel-good messages from outwardly promising rulers as opposed to the harsher realism of ruling that Stannis represents. That’s why they preferred Renly, and VERY much preferred Dany. It’s that they didn’t understand his character and didn’t care to, rather than they were going out of their way to assassinate him.

[@MrHotSalsa]

The 20 good men part is what killed the show for me.

[@ivanbluecool]

Pretty much drained stannis of his dry whit and humor. The peach scene. Removing any grief over renlys death. The whole fake script situation and bri-enne being proud of her action yet covering it up at the same time. Same with whoever wanted to remove berristan. They really don't know how to adapt stoic characters

[@Lin_Eileen]

It seems more like they just didn't like Stannis very much cause Ned was a stoic character and they adapted him well. I think they just didn't know what to do with Barristan. They adapted Barristan very well for the first few seasons imo idk what happened i but i think maybe there was just too much going on they were cutting down on Mereen storyline and weren't going in the same direction as Winds seems to be going with it so they cut his plotline Despite him not having a lot to do post S3 he was always treated with respect and given a cool death scene he was badass even when he died whereas most characters get a more brutal or unceremonious end his storyline was cut short which sucks but every scene he was in basically rocked and treated him well in character. I just wish they could have found some way to adapt his Dance and Winds chapters before killing him off cause they were awesome

[@user-uq4gr5nl5o]

He does have that scene with Melissandre in season 2 where he shows remorse for killing Renly and she tries to comfort him

[@thedragondemands5186]

What I do know is they delegated writing Stannis to Cogman, but by that logic they also gave him writing duties for Arya

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

thats so weird

[@psevdhome]

To be fair to the fans who think Stannis will win: Randyll Tarly thought Stannis will win at Storm's End against Renly. And he meant the actual battle of 5000 foot vs. 10 000 heavy horsemen.

[@phillipguglielmo]

He didn't exactly say he thought Stannis would win, but he was the only one who recognised that Stannis actually had a plan (lure Renly's forces into the blinding sunrise). He also cautioned Renly against discounting the threat his brother posed, unlike the other lords, and Renly himself, who weren't taking the situation seriously.

[@psevdhome]

@@phillipguglielmo Oh yeah, you're correct. I am mistaken, because Randyll himself was going to fight in that battle, why would he fight if the thought they would lose. You're correct he took Stannis seriously and assumed he must have a plan and surmised that he thought he would use the sunrise to blind his opponents and use his prepared position to his advantage. This is further compounded when Stannis explains in his account of the death of Renly in his dreams while he was supposed to be dressing in armour that *he* expected to do battle that day. This confirms Tarly's suspicion that he had some kind of strategy and that he thought would win. Perhaps he thought Melissandre would somehow intervene during the battle not before. We do not know. But Stannis expected to fight and win.

[@Baratheon.]

the Renly simping and constant talk about Stannis not being a good King, while Renly would be an enlightened King is delusional, and a clear bias. GRRM definitely thinks Stannis would make a better medieval King. Stannis believes not even the King is above the law.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

I don't think GRRM sees him this way.

[@Baratheon.]

Martin openly talks about Stannis admiringly. What you think doesn't matter.@@fightingmedialounge519

[@fightingmedialounge519]

@@Baratheon. never said it did, but you’re feelings for stannis or GRRM are just as irrelevant. what interview has him state he would be a good king?

[@Baratheon.]

"An awful lot of fantasy, and even some great fantasy..falls into the mistake of assuming that the 'good man' will make the good King" - George RR Martin. Martin directly picks out Stannis as the best ruler out of the 5 Kings contending. He is not opulent, he does not fall into vice, he holds himself to the standard. He values merit over birth, is a man of duty, responsibility, service, and cares about justice. Martin calls him 'truly just'. @@fightingmedialounge519

[@JakeMXZero]

I think I'd argue that 1. Stannis not having his army in proper ranks and form walking into the battle was a kinda lame for his character, made him look really incompetent there at the end. Also, 2. Stannis getting from the battlefield to some random place in the woods to be executed by Brienne is one of those cinematic moments where overthinking it makes Stannis look like he fled from the battle or something, again it's lame

[@jj947]

I’m only thirty seconds in, but I’m going to guess why Stannis’ character was so diminished…they made Ramsay into too big of a villain. D&D probably knew by season 3 that Ramsay would replace Joffrey as the “main villain” of the show, as opposed to Theon’s personal antagonist in ADWD. With Ramsay being such a central character now, he couldn’t be defeated by a character as “minor” as Stannis. As soon as he lost black water and then went north, Stannis was living on borrowed time in the writers room. Why develop a character you were going to off in an anticlimax?

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

Bro, Blackwater was in Season 2, there are plenty of things you can do in the meantime. Plus getting rid of a character that is great is the point of the show, just like Ned. Choosing to do nothing with a character cause he is gonna be killed is really a bad way to view things.

[@nikagogibedashvili6476]

The first thing I have heard about Stannis was "oh, he's Robert's crazy brother". Then he's introed with the letter scene in S02E01 and says "make it Ser Jamie Lannister, the kingslayer, man is a knight after all." Stannis is a chad and I loved him long before I have read ASOIAF.

[@psevdhome]

Before listening to Preston's answer I will comment that it is true. They read the books and thought Renly was the good guy. Deceitful smooth-talking manipulative useless Renly. He looked the part of a king and had showmanship but no skill. Randyll Tarly has to explain that this is Stannis he's up against, you can't just expect to roll him over and Renly scoffs. I think Dan and Dave and a lot of fans misunderstand the whole shadow baby thing. They think it's this calculated callous move by Stannis. Yes Redwoman, kill my brother with magic IDGAF. Stannis clearly loved him. When they explain how there was a vision of Renly attacking Stannis' rear at Black Water they thought the only way to avoid it was to get rid of Renly before going to King's landing. I think Mel said she will do "something" to get rid of Renly but did not specify how. Certainly not: "I will use magic to make you become a ghost in your dream and kill your brother". Stannis meant to fight his brother and win. If he had for sure known that he would have to kill his brother I am not sure he would have done it. I do think Stannis subconsciously wanted Renly dead for his betrayal, and that's what allowed Mel's trick to work. Stannis regrets Renly's death and he even says it out loud. And that's the scene that the writers choose to cut. And in addition they allow Brienne to get the kill, while abandoning her duty to protect Sansa at no cost. And then she says the stupid line "in the name of [a person who was never really king] I sentence you to die" There was no authority to kill Stannis at least not in Renly's name, and she should have been executed for regicide. They didn't let Stannis even have a crown, but fucking Renly was allowed one? Bullshit.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

Eh, robb didn't have a crown either

[@psevdhome]

@@fightingmedialounge519 that's true.

[@brianhourigan]

Dave and Dan hated the story. End of

[@fart_restoration]

😂

[@Waddehaddeduddedaa]

You underestimate how dumb D and D thought the average viewer was by season 6+. Maybe they just didn't think people remembered Jamie to be Kingslayer or Stannis to be a King.

[@RichardHorpe]

I think D&D just don't care about Stannis more so than they hate him. They want the big budgets to go to Kit Harington, that's why the Hardhome episode is so expensive while they spent 5 dollars on Winterfell.

[@ayourmum8521]

Yeah I think they ultimately just didn’t care. Cause watch the first 3 seasons they really cared. They would do big battles just offscreen. You can just tell the difference between season the show before and after season 4. Honestly even season 3. I think the actors just heavily carried and that’s why season 4-6 are good. They cared about the red wedding. Honestly I think they didn’t really care about the rest of the show at all tbh.

[@MrPhbahia]

Stannis is such an awesome character, can’t even believe people who see him as unlikeable

[@italycommon]

It's because Stannis is funny. He makes dry jokes about various lords and people can't help but laugh.

[@Tusiriakest]

For me, Stannis is one of my favourite characters. He is a great character study: What if you had the perfect king, with the right claim, with a selfless sense of purpose (i do think he is not ambitious. He saw in the fire the crown killing him, yet he's still determined to win because he's the only of the 5 kings that believes the world is at stake, if he truly is the PTWP/Azor Ahai) with best sense of justice(from the highest lord to the lowest rat, will be judge by their actions) great military commander, etc... But do this character as not likeable...as an asshole xD People will not believe he is selfless... because he is not humble; people will say he has no flexibility, because they are afraid of true justice, etc etc. People in democracies will prefer to vote in the corrupt politician just because he would be better to "drink a beer with" than they would an honest one that is not likeable, even if more qualified for the job. People prefer emotional connection instead of logical thinking and rationality. Westeros is not going to have the best king it could have because people won't want what is best. I do think it is a criticism to the weight of "looks and charm" in politics. (Come on... What's the % of Christians in the US? This guy has to sacrifice his own daughter to save everyone in the world from destruction. That's like the "lamb of god" plot of Abraham, Job and Jesus himself in the bible. Yet, on one book everybody loves God, on the other everybody hates Stannis xD how can it not be a purposely made character study? xD)

[@MiddleEarthGirl75]

Another point to make when it comes to how Stannis is perceived is that his guard is slightly down around Davos because Davos is probably the closest thing he has to a friend....a person who will say it like it is, etc. So of course we'd get a different 'version' of Stannis through Davos. I personally really liked Stannis. I thought he was really well written in the books. Very grey. Not typically someone who would be swept up in Melisandre's "magic" nonsense and you can see the conflict within him. You can see him really caring about what the right thing to do is but struggling with the politics of it all, kind of like Ned. I hated how and how early he died on the show. Stephen Dillane was awesome.

[@barrone71]

D&D suck, stop making excuses for them Carmine. They weaseled their way into getting too much power from HBO, GRRM got turned off by them and that power. They refused to have longer seasons and step aside for other show runners. Then they rewrote things to placate actors and actresses they favored. May they take a long voyage in the depths of The Silence and enjoy Euron’s hospitality

[@liamprice590]

Main reason I disliked Brienne in the show is because she never suffered any consequences for killing someone she knew was the rightful king, and she still has the balls to act like shes this super honourable person

[@DaemonJulian]

If there was an opportunity to bring up Brienne’s kingslaying it should’ve come from Davos, right before Jaime knighted her.

[@MyUserTubeAccount]

wtf Preston? the "greatest commander in Westeros" WALKS into light horse, but they didn't hate Stannis?!

[@engineerforthefuture8593]

I think the big reason it should have been brought up is because Jaime had that incredible scene where he confessed to Brienne about why he killed Aerys. To have her also become a Kingslayer but never have her talk to Jaime about how she understands better now the choice he made was such a waste of dramatic potential.

[@humblegroundskeeper7495]

I love stannis because in my eyes his the only real guy speaking plainly. He says something and he will do it, he will kill Jamie if he gets hold of him but he will still name him ser before doing it. I weirdly respect that a lot in a world full of schemes

[@phantomjoker5]

poor Mannis

[@ComradeCommissarYuri]

So according to Carmine Brienne lurking in the shadows see’s her chance and pounces Stannis: “do your duty” Brienne: “Ia am Batman!!” Slashes

[@georgerivas8051]

I watched seasons 7 and 8. I think D&D hated anyone actually paying attention.

[@j.o.4574]

Ive always loved Stannis. Easily the most sturdy man in all of the 7 known kingdoms!

[@barrone71]

I think one of Stannis’ best chapters was the Theon sample chapter. D&D hated the character, pretty simple to see. All hail the one true King, Stannis!!!❤️‍🔥

[@Willant80]

"the king who cared"

[@nickkoch3467]

With Stannis dying off screen, were D&D trying to cover their bases to maybe keep him alive for later seasons? What would be his purpose without his own army?

[@baswar]

I love preston's idea for Stannis' end. I'd have personally loved to see him call her out a bit too. Something like "your Tarth therefore an oathbreaker for supporting renly to begin ect but what do what you have to" or something similar

[@proudsaiyanprince2651]

It’s very strange to see two people whose entire internet careers are based on this work be so smug, condescending and dismissive to other fans and ideas about the source material. Just odd

[@Longshanks1690]

I know a lot of people think D&D hated Stannis, but I don’t think his butchering of an adaptation comes down to malice as much as apathy and misunderstanding. They clearly preferred Dany, clearly thought she was the Chosen One who would save Westeros and clearly believed it was only her journey they had to focus on. So in that analysis, Stannis is an inconvenience and an irritation. Why do we have to bother fleshing out this boring, soulless character just because he has some neat monologues when the REAL energy should go to Dany? So that’s what they did, Stannis was cut down, his character diminished and his story reduced dramatically so he could be conveniently killed off when there was no further use for him. I don’t think it was hatred because there wasn’t enough energy in the way they portrayed him to indicate hatred. There was enough for Dillane to work with, enough to make the audience sympathetic for him until ShireenGate and enough to not be a complete divergence from the book a-La Euron - which also comes down to a laziness and “cba” attitude in portraying him. Really that was the problem with D&D overall, they didn’t set out to destroy these characters or intend to subvert your expectations, they just didn’t care. They didn’t care enough to give these characters the attention they deserved and the consequences are… obvious to all.

[@Baratheon.]

D&D started getting called out by the fans, in public, at Comic Con, about Stannis, and how they chose to portray their adaptation of him. That's why Season 5 Stannis seemed more Stannislike, despite them veering off killing Mance, killing Shireen (both alive, both impossible as he left Shireen at The Wall with Jon Snow)

[@fightingmedialounge519]

I doubt that's the case considering where they took danereys.

[@Longshanks1690]

@@fightingmedialounge519 When they were told by George what the ending point of the characters was, they pivoted hard, sure. But especially if you watch the BTS of the early seasons, they gush over Dany and are unambiguously on her side and want her to be Queen. I think that has a lot to do with their late apathy towards the show, that they didn’t see a point if their favourite character wasn’t going to win so they were just phoning it in until they could be done with it.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

@@Longshanks1690 that wasn't one points George told them about.

[@Longshanks1690]

@@fightingmedialounge519 We don’t know what exactly he told them or in what detail. But considering that they had been portraying her as unambiguously righteous for 4+ seasons, it really doesn’t make sense that they went with the Mad Queen direction unless they were told to do so.

[@fabvz5436]

Stannis is simply awesome to read, so much that i would actually accept the plotwist that he was really azor ahai and George be like "I tought it was pretty clear that the Mannis was THE man"

[@princeprocrastinate6485]

Seeing Brienne cut through the battle to take down Stannis, that would've been so phenomenal. Preston you genius!

[@HerbstaMagus]

When you were talking about obscure side characters that people like for no reason I really wanted you two to do another like 15 minute rant about Allar Deem. I remember on one of your random podcasts a year or two ago you guys just kept talking about Allar Deem for like no reason and it was funny as shit. Do another Allar Deem based episode! 🍻🍻🍻

[@billmcdermott9647]

“People think it must be because like and Dan hated him….um…(faintly exasperated) but it could also be Dan and Dave are lazy” Sorry but that made me laugh

[@theconfessor2428]

I think with the whole Oathbreaking or Not, Ideals of True Knighthood and the Question of Vengeance etc. the really big Question should also be, IF Brienne even would kill still Stannis. Atleast with her book version I can't see it. Taking him to trial, reprimanding him yes. But killing him while Sansa is still not saved? Never!

[@cherylbaxter8986]

Stannis's death was so wrong in the show, I'm glad he's still alive

[@arnolpc]

Isn’t it a bigger deal for Jamie because he broke his oath to protect the king? Brienne never swore to protect Stannis as her allegiance was to Renly.

[@SuperWindsage]

making him incompetent and dumb SUCKS SO MUCH.

[@loki_l_1380]

I really do hope Brienne saves Jaime from Lady Stoneheart. Personally I feel like it would be a HUGE missed opportunity for Jaime and Brienne to not learn that the Others are real. We havent seen that yet of a character wrapped up in the southern plotlines having to face the real threat of the Others.

[@ZeMeatStick]

What are some examples of Stannis being selfish?

[@louisroy4911]

Does she really see Stannis as the rightful king though? It’s really easy to not see yourself as a Kingslayer if you don’t think the guy you slew was ever a king.

[@barrone71]

Well what she thinks and what is true are different things. Brienne thinks Renly was a King however he was a Usurper. Either Stannis or Joffrey were the true King of Westeros. Stannis if you believe Robert only had bastards and Joffrey if you believe he is Roberts true born son. Renly had no right to the throne whatsoever. So she may think she is honorable and avenged Renly for killing Stannis (btw, how hypocritical, as if Renly and his army of 100k wouldn’t of killed Stannis had they had the opportunity) but reality is she’s an oath breaker, supported a Usurper and is a Kingslayer

[@louisroy4911]

@@barrone71 that’s fair, I guess I never thought about her beeing Oathbreaking since day 1 by supporting a usurper. I was more thinking in the context of not talking about it with Jaime.

[@barrone71]

@@louisroy4911 for sure. I hear what you’re saying. That’s also what’s great about the ASOIAF books because you’ll read statements about certain characters that are from other characters or gossip from the realm, when those things might not even be true. Jaime is a good example. Yes he’s a Kingslayer; but he killed a mad man who was going to burn down the entire city and kill millions. No one in the realm knows this so he’s just a no good kingslayer to them. The truth is, book Brienne may never even be in the position the show runners created.

[@JDoe-ox6ie]

God this episode is awful >don't talk about the Stannis scenes cut from the show or the additional Renly scenes, or the fact the book shows both as greedy but for Stannis he isn't aware of his greed/tried to rectify it >don't talk about how the show removes his finer qualities >Preston saying that people are headcanoning Stannis as a great leader when that is text explained everywhere, at every point by every character who comments on it. >don't talk about how DnD's biases infiltrated the show (lack of focus on magic, increased focus on Dorne, greater amount of sex scenes, kindlier version of Tyrion and Tywein) >Carmine saying Stannis had a good end after '20 good men' somehow completely cripple his entire army. This really is a dogshit analysis/discussion. Also I don't like how they act confused why people like Stannis when everyone talks about his appreciation for meritocracy, his even-handness, the fact he will actually put his responsibilities above his rights and that he is the only one of the kings currently in the war so far to show a capacity for growth and improvement in leadership.

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

Quiet, child. Adults are talking

[@JDoe-ox6ie]

@@OfficialRedTeamReview What's the point of talking about something if you don't actually talk about it?

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

@@JDoe-ox6ie We did, you just didn't watch the actual video. feels bad

[@Alpha1200]

3:03 - I want to point out though also that in some sense Stannis is closer to the audience's values than a lot of other characters are. Stannis Baratheon promoted Davos Seaworth, some random civilian, to the role of hand of the king. And he does this based almost entirely on a combination of performance and merit. This idea of a meritocracy is NOT an idea that is very common in Westeros where a lot of positions are a matter of family names and birthright and political advantage. But meritocracy is very much the modern way we think these things should be approached. And in that sense the audience and Stannis agree. And especially because that meritocracy is applied to Davos, a character a lot of us like, I think that's one of the things that makes people love Stannis.

[@Scott100W]

I'm not sure that Brienne would consider herself a kingslayer as she never recognised Stannis as one. Also the difference between her killing an enemy 'king' and Jaime killing his own king whom he is a kingsguard for is pretty huge.

[@domhuckle]

Stannis' story is brilliant - the one true king who's slowly sacrificing his honour, his gods, his followers (and maybe his daughter?) to a sorcerous in persuit of the throne - how his story ends will be fascinating

[@isaiahthomas6744]

I can see how Show stannis is a fan favorite. He’s hard but just and actually shows some regret. the scene when Brianne brings up renly just before killing him his whole demeanor changes.

[@saf9014]

Shame they didn't have Jaime calling Brienne wench while she called him Kinglayer early on, as those two did in Storm. Later on after she has killed Stannis, have Jaime remark that she no longer calls him Kinglayer; Brienne could say that she is one as well now.

[@TheRoguePrince0]

King Stannis, and his army are the reason why the stark forces in season 6 even stood a chance. King Stannis and his boys took out the Boltons best men and horses whitch evened the odds for the stark forces in the battle of the bastards.

[@18pablo88]

I've convinced myself, stoneheart will somehow find herself at castle black and passes the gift of life to john

[@FrshChees91]

She's a kingslayer but he wasn't her king. She had no oath to protect him.

[@nononono3421]

Brienne kills Stannis with Oathkeeper. Jaime kills Lady Stoneheart with Widow’s Wail.

[@emarti3853]

Stannis the god damm Mannis

[@obviousalias132]

It wouldn’t be surprising if they did. There are lots of examples of creators who don’t like that their audience has latched on to a certain character and then try to make their own views on the character text rather than subtext.

[@VoiceofOldtown]

I don‘t necessarily think they hated Stannis, I think they just didn‘t know what to do with him post Battle of Ice. The best Stannis portrayal we ever got in Game of Throwns was IN early S5 at the Wall, so I guess there was some level of understanding of the character. Once he leaves CB, everything goes to shit in the show. I totally agree with you about them just wanting to make room for Jon. It‘s probably laziness. It‘s such a pitty, because Dillane was perfect as Stannis.

[@claytonschopfer8467]

I never understood the book readers’s complaints about show Stannis. I watched the show first then read the books and they seemed like the exact same character to me

[@lburrsshinyhunts2253]

They never even showed Brienne kill him or whatever. I thought he would eventually show back up since he was “killed” off screen.

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

Well it's not only because Stannis didn't win the battle of ice or cause that he went out on a whimper, it's more like they did nothing with Stannis compared to the books. They also made him a quintessential simp to the Red Woman and making him a slave to that religion. And he burned Shireen. Stannis is a great mind in the books but we never seen it on the show. I think the concept of Stannis is Napoleon. Great military leader that will know defeat in North(Russia). But you at least have to see him being a great military mind before that happens! lol It has never happened on the show.

[@Aliexei]

One God, one Realm, one King!

[@lilylollielegs34]

Would be interested in if they think Arya will be involved at all with the stoneheart stuff. I’ve seen a lot of theories that have Arya killing her. I think I prefer Brienne doing it but I wonder where that leaves Arya’s story in the riverlands… if it ever leads back there

[@onetwothreefourfive12345]

More Stannis videos I beg you

[@timtheenchanter989]

D&D said in an interview that he would make a terrible king and they made him a terrible battle commander in the show. They definitely did not like him.

[@joshuabowen6919]

Brienne wasn't sworn to Stannis so it wasn't really the same. They called Jaime Kingslayer as an insult because he broke his vows and killed the king he was sworn too.

[@jaredbrady5566]

I disagree that they hated him. He was a victim of bad writing. He was a badass when facing his death, and he had an expanded role in the Battle of the Backwater. He led the charge into King's Landing and had to be dragged away by his men when Lorland turned up in Renly's armour.

[@slide4]

if jamie tried to kill bran does that make jamie an attempted second kingsslayer through a warped/different timeline? lol i’m high asf

[@orangecoloredsky3486]

yes

[@authorfarrell7161]

But they did also write that incredible scene between him and Shireen.

[@WWESVRGAMER]

Accusing D&D of being lazy coming from bookpurists is peak irony.

[@jackbiesty3729]

I thought it was the case Brienne never saw herself as a kingslayer because she never saw Stannis as the rightful king. Does she ever call him King Stannis in book or show? Euron, Jon and Olenna Tyrell don't bring up how they're King slayers. Hell nether does Stannis after killing Renly. Walder brings it up once to make fun of Jaime I think. They bring up the people they've killed but not in as a grand or Kingly way like you would with Ayres. It's always I killed my brother, I killed Mance Rayder, I killed your son. I can't remember if they ever talked about Cersei killing Robert.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

To be fair, two of the characters you listed wouldn't care about that.

[@justsomedude5727]

I'd like to see Stannis almost win but reluctantly give it away out of sense of duty or honor.

[@nyz7971]

maybe Brienne never brings up her being a "king-slayer" because in her eyes Stannis wasn't a king?

[@Anervaria]

Yes, they make the stannis plot so fucking boring when it’s the best part of the story

[@bshaddo]

Does Brienne think of herself as a kingslayer? He wasn’t any king she recognizes.

[@joaojeffersoncavalcantiwan812]

She isnt, she never had stannis as her liege. Jaime breaks his oath to save half million lives, brienne just murdered a past enemy for revenge.

[@fazediamond5671]

Kinda like if Oberyn killed Robert

[@kimberlygl36]

100%....very much D n D just wanted to be done

[@nicholasmartin8208]

I could see how people win the Saints Stannis is kind of a dick. But it's hard not to respect someone that says what they do and does what they say

[@nicholasmartin8208]

Sorry about the error.(win the saints). was supposed to say. would think

[@user-ig3cy4uf3s]

They hate stannis they said as much.

[@LuluDZulu]

preston if u read this know your videos made me smarter

[@Nick--69]

I don't think Brienne would consider herself a kingslayer. She believed Renly was the rightful king and she says so when she executes Stannis in Renly's name. She considered Stannis to be a kinslayer and a kingslayer himself and she's keeping her oath by executing him, as opposed to Jaime who broke his oath when he slayed the actual king.

[@Nick--69]

i wrote this before i got to the part where Preston kind of got into this at 14:35 and I agree, the "ultimate oathkeeeper" thing they did with show Brienne was stupid

[@fox2569]

Was it ever explained why she thinks Renly was the rightful king?

[@fightingmedialounge519]

​@@fox2569 because she likes him.

[@CATDHD]

The fact they got burnt and are bad writers explain it better.

[@itzfifson6140]

One god one realm one king.😊

[@jaredbrady5566]

Would've been cool if Stannis' sword was actually glamoured in this battle and he and Brienne crossed swords. And in the duel, Oathkeeper breaks *Lightbringer*. Which also makes Stannis question everything in that moment. Then he drops the remains of the sword saying his 'do your duty' line. It was dumb that she didn't take his head with her tbh.