Why Dragons Can't Fly Over The Wall Explained (Game of Thrones ASOIAF Theory)

In this episode of our series discussing all the magic in A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones we discuss dragons and the wall. Given the building blocks we have put down in previous episodes I think we have all we need to figure out why exactly dragons can't go over the wall. Once the clues George RR Martin has laid out are put together we get a very good reason explaining why Silverwing refused to fly over the wall when the good queen Alysanne.
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[@mds2519]

Daenerys was able to fly over the wall in season 7 because “she kinda forgot” about the wall’s magic

[@stephenjones4013]

Dan and Dave never read the books

[@Gigipretty64]

Dan and Dave are fecking idiots who ruined an iconic show.

[@KushGee]

@@stephenjones4013 that episode came out a year before the tidbit about not being able to go over the walls so let's not shit on them for something they couldn't have possibly known.

[@KushGee]

that episode came out a year before this info in fire and blood was released.

[@ongobongo8333]

​@@KushGeeI will shit on them for anything and everything forever

[@jessie_dreams_]

This morning whilst making my coffee, I was wondering why Dany's dragons could pass the wall but Silverwing couldn't (as one does lol) so this video is timed perfectly, so thank u!

[@austinfield3226]

Found your channel at about 4am today, and have listened to all your game of thrones videos sense. To my excitement, you immediately drop another. Keep up the good work; I can’t wait to see this channel blow up.

[@KarlKarsnark]

Obligatory GRRM wordplay observation comment: if you're right, it's as if the Weirwood Wall is, indeed, a wooden weir which is functioning as a "net"/filter-out/separate the souls from their host organism, like a fish from water. Perhaps, Coldhands has a some sort of a similar bond and knows if he passes through the Wall, he'll be "filtered" too. I assume the Black Gate is the "exception to the rule" that lets magic folk pass through without being filtered, but only very few people know about, or can access it. There's an LML stream this evening (11/8) at 6pm EST. Come on by!

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

Yeah the way the ward seems to function is definitely giving a lot of points to the fishing weir and weirwood/weirwall wordplay

[@ganykaliya7811]

You mentioned eagles as an allegory for dragons is interesting because the Winged Knight supposedly rode a giant falcon and commanded eagles. Perhaps it wasn't a falcon but a dragon since there are legends of Westerosi dragons before the Valyrians. Also, the Arryns who descend from the Winged Knight are also obsessed with blood purity, like the Targaryens, and are also inbred. Interestingly Rhaenyra, the dragon hatcher of her generation was 1/4 Arryn. The fact that the Targaryens at the height of their power would consent to marry the Arryns is telling. The Arryns don't have much fear of heights. Robert Arryn is a bad example because it's very likely he's actually Littlefinger's son. The last Arryn King Ronnel Arryn was quite at ease riding on dragon back with Visenya Targaryen. The Arryns are also mostly blonde haired.

[@AzayBae]

Interesting. I haven't read fire and blood but know there was a servant who could tide a dragon with no Targaryen blood. Maybe she was a descendant from the pre-Valyrian riders?

[@pankratos5017]

Fair point, but Aemma Arryn was half-Targaryen from her mother's side (Daella Targaryen), making her Viserys's first cousin. Your theory still sounds reasonable, though.

[@ganykaliya7811]

@@pankratos5017 My point was not about Viserys marriage to Aemma but why would the Targaryens allow Daella Targaryen to marry Rodrik Arryn, if the Arryns didn't have dragon genes.

[@pankratos5017]

@@ganykaliya7811 The Targaryen women were more easily married off to powerful houses, as their children (usually) wouldn't stand to inherit the crown. Jaehaerys and Alysanne had 9 children, of which the oldest and male heir even married a Baratheon (though I don't remember the reason behind this). Daella was the youngest, and the Arryns were a powerful house and important allies to maintain control over the Vale. Also of note, the crown passed on to children of two Targaryens: Baelon and Alyssa, keeping the ruling bloodline pure.

[@ganykaliya7811]

@@pankratos5017 First off the Baratheons are a cadet branch of House Targaryen. Orys Baratheon was Aegon the Conqueror's bastard half-brother. Also, the mother of Jocelyn Baratheon the wife of Aemon Targaryen was Alyssa Velaryon the mother of Jahaerys and Alysanne. Targaryen women, if you look at the family tree were rarely married off to powerful houses. In fact Elaena Targaryen daughter of Aegon III was married off to minor houses. Targaryens married mostly based on eugenic principles rather than on power politics. The one king who tried this was Aegon V and he failed. Also, when the Targaryens married the Martells, the Martells at this point had Valyrian blood through their ancestor Drozhenko Rogarre, a Lyseni.

[@thegreenmanofnorwich]

I wonder if Melisandre genuinely thought that the Lord of Light really did burn the eagle. She's a tricky one though, that I often find difficult to really get a grip on.

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

I think she would absolutely believe the lord of light did it, she thinks he does everything pretty much and has shown herself willing to take credit and use tricks to build her own appearance of power

[@umwha]

I find it strange that Melisdanre has never thought about or mentioned dragons ... Like, youd think it would be brought up that she might have asked for eggs when she lived on Dragonstone, the place where multiple dragons used to live, and was said to thave caches of eggs around the place. Strange she dosent ever think about or meniton the power of obsidian either, huh

[@guru230]

They kinda forgot

[@emrek99205]

I wouldn't put it passed her to go searching for them on her own. The woman doesn't sleep or eat so she has plenty of extra time to snoop about without anyone noticing.

[@umwha]

@@emrek99205 Theres no reason for it to be covert. She should explicitly ask Stannis to get some - they are both on board with magic fire hero prophecies. Even if she wanted to keep it from him, then it should have entered her thoughts in her POV chapter.

[@thediabeterskeeter2340]

MY MAAAN!!! Thaaaaank you so MF much. You just tied something together for me. When I first read what happened to Euron’s horn blower at the KingsMoot in AFFC, I immediately associated it with Orell’s eagle burning in ASOS. In fact, I just found a text i sent to my brother that I sent two years ago after reading that chapter: “the two scenes have too man similarities to ignore…I’m not saying that it indicates anything to the central storyline, but it more so speaks on the mechanism of magic in the world and may hint at the source. Idk I think George is leaving little crumbs and think this might be something big. I just can’t articulate what it is” Fuck. Yesssss. Thank you! That shit always stood out to me. Parallels between: -Orells eagle and the eagle tattoo -Both Mance & Asha speak of saving their people from needless death. -Both scenes have a horn with hieroglyphs. -Both POVs think about smashing the horn -The screech of Varamyr w/ the shadow cat and the screech of the horn. -The eagle was shadow binded and the blower was dragon binded There’s even more similarities when looking at it. I just feel like a douche leaving this large of a comment so I’ll leave it at that. Compare them yourself. I’d love to hear what you think.

[@liberTvalance]

My theory is that Dan and Dave only read the first 2 books and used google and reddit to get the rest of their GOT knowledge. This explains why they seemingly didn't understand some basic parts of the world and lore but somehow guessed the parentage of Jon. It also explains why they didn't realize how the magic increased or what it was outside of Mel.

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

Especially because the R+L=J theory was not created by people who had read ADWD...it was around after the first book if I'm not mistaken. So based off very little evidence in actuality. It's easily something they could read about without putting any thought into it themselves

[@anorangetabby]

You are the first ASOIAF KZbinr whose theories I enjoy as much as LML's! Great job, excellent content! 👏🐈

[@samarthtiwari53]

who is LML???

[@anorangetabby]

David Lightbringer, (formerly known as Lucifer means Lightbringer) is an ASOIAF podcaster turned KZbinr. His channel is one of the best on the subject matter.

[@Nerdixy]

I recently discovered this Channel and had the exact same thoughts… it’s a breath of fresh air in the community for me

[@Buford_T_Justice1]

I binge watched the 7 hells out of your videos and you have become my FAVORITE ASOIAF theory channel. Keep them coming dude!!!

[@0bskureference]

Just a random thought: the only tangible beings we see in the story that have long fiery talons are dragons and firewyrms. So just another connection between Rhllor and dragons

There MUST BE a reason why wargs can’t get through the wall when warging! This seems to me, that the wall is there to keep the three eyed raven out of the realms of men.

[@thisguy8106]

I don't think exploding someone with fire would be a "one off" type of spell for Melisandre.😅 Theres no way she did it. Seems to me that Storms End has the same type of spell on it that would prevent warging anything, including a shadow baby.

[@eziowayne]

Another great theory video! This one in particular is so interesting!! Can’t wait for more!

14:10 it’s also interesting that the eagle bursts into FLAMES when trying to fly over the ICE wall

[@sleepyj8848]

Love your theories man. Best Wall theory on the net. Keep them coming!

[@girlnettles]

Who are you? And why are you so smart?

[@KarlKarsnark]

Howdy stranger! Yes, the Michael chap seems to be on to something. There's an LML stream later today at 6pm EST. Come on by. Cheers! (Go Noles! they're looking pretty good this year ;) )

[@umwha]

I think your onto something with the dragons having a second soul inside of them ... But the big question is what is the point? I cannot see how this additional soul - and hte true meaning of the three heads symbol - will have any relecance. It would be like if we learned that the direwolves had additional souls inside them all along and thats how the warging was enabeld. Its ust extra magic babbel fluff. I think its just as possible that the three heads has another lore-meaning - such as my idea that the 3 refers to the fact that Dragon are a three way mule - a mix between wyvern, fire wyrm and human. Three magics, 3 DNAs. The Targaryens also have the dna of the same three species in them. From another perspective, the three refers to three Targaryen Monarchs, which appears to ideally be a king and two queens - I think this is a reference to the male Sun and two Moons, a fire moon and an ice moon (david lightbringer theory). The dragons three heads are therefore the three luminaries, the sun and two moons. This links to there being a destroyed moon, which links to the long night, which all seems bit more lore relevant than your theory.

[@solutanbrun]

Fascinating! What if wights are dual consciousnesses as well. It could be as in the show where each wight belong to an Other, or they could be a hivemind of some sort.

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

I think the wights seem closer to wargs bond but the whole others thing seems to be a hive mind so it will be interesting to see the details of that mix all play out

[@jacobsquare4812]

This is sort of what I was thinking. They are undead being possessed by some sort of consciousness, so it makes sense that something that breaks that would be a barrier to them, like the Wall or Bloodraven's cave

[@jpmzo]

The Books DO NOT = The Show, as GRRM has reminded us, ad nauseum

[@Priestah203]

Love your channel just subbed

[@Glantonite]

Wonder if targ’s having so many stillborns could be sacrifices to be dragon souls. We’ve seen and been shown so many child deaths to targs specifically, don’t know any other house having such bad luck with having kids. Collecting dead babies to feed to the comet when it comes around.

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

I am thinking I will cover this soon but I agree it is either something with all their still births/dragonlike dead kids or some other sacrifices done by the pyromancers to prisoners in the red keep or something like that. I have never tried to line up the dragon hatchings on any level to the birth issues but it seems possible GRRM would do something like that and line it up timing wise in the history books.

[@Glantonite]

@@michaeltalksaboutstuff probably a technique lost after the doom, any westerosi targ doesn’t seem to understand why they can’t have lots of children. Maybe Aegon knew considering he was content with what he had.

[@user-lt6ve9ns4d]

Makes sense because if dragons need sacrifices and drogon had drogon while viseryon had mirri, then which one did rhaegal have? Danny's son Rhaego, who was stillborn

[@emmyland3162]

@@michaeltalksaboutstuffso that would be the same as Craster sacrificing his sons to the WW?

[@lawv804]

Silverwing also acted very strage near the wall while Queen Allysanne visited the Nights Watch. Silverwing's behavior made her a beleiver of the importance of the wall enough to convince her to fund castles and to grant the New Gift to the Nights Watch.

[@cherielk1975]

This is great, I feel like listening to the books again and maybe understanding more.

[@magister343]

I personally prefer to think that the Wall is actually a sleeping Ice Dragon, or more likely multiple ice dragons but still not nearly as many as would be needed to take up that much space if they were puny little fire dragons like the Targaryens rode. Ice Dragons may be mythical, but one thing the stories agree about is that they are way bigger than fire dragons.

[@bc269]

Good One!!

[@zacmccollum7144]

I always thought Melissandre burst Orell's eagle into flames Also dragons are already fire on the inside.

[@donjuan9602]

Great job

[@daneocallaghan230]

Given the hive mind like characteristics of the Others, is it possible that this is the reason that they can’t/ won’t cross the wall? Yes they do take a wight Wight to castle black but perhaps there’s an explanation somewhere as to why it didn’t burn. I just love the idea that the physical scale of the wall isn’t what keeps them put but rather it’s magical properties

[@emrek99205]

Yes there is a problem here. The wight was taken in BY the Night's Watch. Any connection it had would have been broken which is why the others don't overrun the forts. But later it does connect and attacks. That should not be possible. An eagle that flies over the wall cannot be connected until it flies back. Same should be true for the wight.

[@ChryI]

Season 7 did something right? I can't believe it. That's insane.

[@Nerdixy]

This isn’t just a good theory on why dragons can’t cross the wall but it’s the best argument I’ve heard for the meaning of “the dragon must have 3 heads”… I think that’s exactly what it means. It would also mean that bloodraven is able to travel beyond the wall with the ravens aswell because he said to bran they all have souls of children of the forest in them. Amazing content man!

[@stenquists1]

Great theory, especially considering Euron's horn that should bind a dragon and kills the blower. I imagine it would replace the soul of the person in the dragon with one that you would hope is loyal to you. The parallels of bodies catching on fire internally when a soul has nowhere to go is striking.

[@jamesdavidjett]

Neat! Your idea that the wall is trees covered in ice, and the river is the barrier, are ask what I kinda figured.. yay. I'm glad to know I'm not alone.. the ice king is bran the builder..

[@BeteBlanc]

There are several aspects to the Wall that appear to contradict so I'm not going to claim to have solved this riddle. Notable is the wights being dragged through. I see a lot of "not activated", but their eyes are blue on the north side so that doesn't make sense to me. The Wall seems to act as what Bran called a hot kettle when Summer was injured. What seems to happen is a "shadow" or a "spirit" can't pass it unless it's in a living thing. It's forced to retreat to its living form. The barrier is like a hot kettle. For the bird, Orell doesn't have a form to retreat to. What remains of him has nowhere to go so it was forced into the hot kettle. For the wights, if it's their own spirit, they reteat into their own bones like Hodor hiding from Bran. If a dragon has one or more spirits with no where to retreat they'd probably burn up like the eagle. I don't think it's the number of heads, I think it's the fact that Orell's and the spirits in the dragons can't escape because they have no bones to return to. They can't leave so they're forced to go into the kettle and burn up.

[@gonx9906]

How does every dragon in House of the dragons hatch if there is no sacrifice?

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

So I think there probably are. Either by the stillbirths we see in the targs history somehow feeding into it or some blood magic done by the pyromancers who Daemon is seen talking about eggs with. I also assume at some point the knowledge the order had about the sacrifices was lost or deliberately hidden to bring about the slow decline of the ability to hatch new dragons until Dany did her ritual.

[@johndinobuff583]

​@@michaeltalksaboutstuffdragons are magical animals but they're animals. There were several dragons that hatched, there were even some youngsters that didn't reach adulthood, some of which were probably eaten by the Cannibal. Take Dreamfyre for example, she was on an island when she laid eggs.

[@aminaa5824]

I wonder if this is purposeful or just a side effect of the magic that is meant to keep the others from passing the wall, extending far enough to keep anything magical/unnatural from passing (I haven’t seen the complete video yet so idk if you said that sorry)

[@christopher1367]

Ever heard the phrase “you’ve lost the plot” 😂

[@HellionImmortal]

4:34 inspired by David Lightbringer's theories about The Great Empire of the Dawn: what if the 3 heads are Wyvern + Blood sacrifice to fire (=Dragon, created by GEotD, maybe by Bloodstone Emperor or smn) + rider

[@geoninja3631]

❤❤❤❤❤❤amazing

[@Anubiszz512zz]

Lol someone else has probably already mentioned it, but the one Stark bastard guy making weirwood arrows for the dragons makes a hell of a lot more sense now. Seems like magic is still necessary to break the bond but Maybe he enchants the arrows or something? Obviously it never happened cause they came to peace probably because Aegon told the king who knelt about his dream.

[@jasonyea7649]

Great video I thought the same and I would go as far to say the old dragon lords of Valyria would voluntarily be sacrificed like the old,the sick it would be a honor to make all three heads be a family bond like thing

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

I think there is a good chance of this and this is very possibly the explanation to the Dragons liking "The Blood of the Dragon". It could come from the ancestors who are stored as dragon souls who want their family to be powerful.

[@paulcashion8049]

So in your theory were the nights watch origanally protectors of the crusified others in the wall as part of the pact? Were they essentially wardens?

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

So I am a bit up in the air and there is some speculation here, but I think if the wall is a big line of weirwoods that need blood the reason they put an order there to guard it and fight against anyone on the other side might just be because it means constant blood going into the wall. They are basically soldiers being fed to the meat grinder to keep the old ways running. If the trees need blood what better way than to ensure a bunch of people swear into an order where they can't leave and will die at the wall one way or another. Which could be read as a bit of a critique on war and the way soldiers are used as basically sacrifices by the ones running the show. GRRM is very anti war so the soldiers thinking they are going to fight some important world saving battle when really they are shoved up there and dying for the sake of sustaining the old people strapped to trees kinda tracks for me with a statement GRRM might make. It sorta has the vibes of the song masters of war by Bob Dylan. There are lines about how the masters of war hide behind walls, or "You hide in your mansion, While the young peoples' blood, Flows out of their bodies, And is buried in the mud". The whole song is very good and I imagine GRRM was a fan of it or at least its message. Basically they are pawns in someone else's big sacrifice system propped up by wars.

[@danlapointe5140]

The primary evidence supporting the theory of why dragons resist flying over the Wall lies in the eerie sensations felt by Gared and Will. These feelings are attributed to infrasound, emanating from the ancient volcano - the dragons' long-standing foe.

[@GiubileiFernando]

I think the boundaries do extend beyond sides of the Wall. For 2 reasons: the first one is the most obvious and that's because otherwise the white walkers could just through the sides to get around it. it wouldn't be very effective unless they also have some kind of magical aversion to water or they attract krakens and sea dragons or something. The second one is because of the Five Forts that seemingly fulfill the same function as the wall even though they are just castles, not walls that fence off the whole North. So their magic must make an invisible wall between them that doesn't let the others pass through. It's also possible that while the weirwoods are inside thenwall, their roots extend very far to the sides and those roots channel the same magic.

[@chables74]

Algormancy!

[@taelion]

Just from a legal PoV (in the german justice system) a wall implies sideways. If it is obvious that parts of your property are „pacified“ as german law puts it, anyone has to make the assumption that your whole property is pacified. But then again these barriers are not magical, they just are implicit. Side note: pacified in german is befriedet, with "fried" stemming from Frieden meaning peace. But it also can be found in Burgfried, which is a castle keep. So the implicicity of befriedet already starts when you have a major tower to observe your property.

[@davethemagicweasel1]

One thing not mentioned here that i think backs up the theory is Dany's change of character after the dragons are born. Varamyr tells us it works both ways and Orell whispers to him, so the same should be true of Drogo's soul blending with Dany's through her bond with Drogon. And she does become more confident, but also more belligerent, after the Dragons are born, crucifying people, sacking cities, becomes much more interested in conquest, etc

[@swayback7375]

3:23 that’s one surprisingly hairy egg and daemon knows it!

[@seanwilliams1166]

Makes sense seeing that it was built to stop the others which are merged consciousness entity with the trees being a hive mind the bit of consciousness that merged into the human probably can’t go back

[@RhmnLego]

Seems that, in general, no magic stuff can go through. Coldhands, dragons, whitewalkers etc

[@YaBoiDREX]

Now in HOTD S2 they flat out say dragons can’t fly over the wall.

[@shara1979]

What about Jon & Ghost. Werent they warged a few times while crossing the wall?

[@NuwandaLunaDragon]

they lose connection and can't feel each other if they're on opposite sides

[@gablo1089]

Maybe the wall severing the bond is why the zombie thralls have to have the wall broken down to go south.

[@criticalthot4179]

I just had a thought about the trees with faces. What if the people reading the stories the faces on the trees watching the stories play out in our minds. Just a theory.

[@dennisyoungblood942]

9:50 that's not what happened. I hate to be a nitpick, no I don't, but Orell was the warg of the eagle, but Jon killed him when he and Stonesnake come upon the encampment. Sorry, that bothered the shit out of me

[@RandomGuy-lu1en]

when cotter Pyke writes his letter about the journey to hardhome. The number of ships he mentions doesn't add up with what he started. Is this simply a mistake by George or is something weird going on?

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

I will have to look more into that. Hadn’t thought about it but it’s an interesting question that has sorta slipped by my radar

[@RandomGuy-lu1en]

@@camerondevoe4700 yeah and when you add the ships he mentioned as lost to the ones he currently has it's one less than what he started with!

[@RandomGuy-lu1en]

@@camerondevoe4700 really? I have only the German version and it doesn't add up there. Maybe a mistake during translation.

[@jimhart4488]

Uh, that "quick little route" from Dragonstone to Eastwatch is just over 1000 miles. Just how fast do dragons fly?

[@Baamthe25th]

If the magic extended to the side of the wall, and assuming it follows the curvature of the earth (instead of shooting in space, lol) then earth would be cut at least in two for dragons, and perhaps more since the walls not straight (so at least cut in 4, lol)

[@beevie4081]

I wonder if Bran will be able to cross back after all the freaky consciousness stuff he's been up to?

[@userabc222]

isn't viserion the most calm/loving dragon to Dany ?

[@emrek99205]

I get the dissolution of connections. The Dragon would pass over at a different time than the warg so it would be cut. Same with Bran and Hodor. That all makes sense. Whatever connection cannot work through the wall of silence. Bit like trying to send a radio signal through a Faraday cage. It just doesn't work. But even so, and even if one of the connections is inside the very same body, this doesn't explain the effect. The eagle *_caught on fire_*. It didn't disintegrate, fall to pieces or simply die. It burst into flames! There is nothing in this theory that explains the flame. Fire cannot harm the Dragon. This would not be its fate. Daenerys has already proven that she cannot be harmed by fire as well. It makes no sense why it would do so at the wall but not anywhere else on the planet. Also, Bran made contact with the Night King and that connection worked when he was in the cave. That is how the NK, the others, and all the ice wights were able to enter. Without that connection to Bran none of their warging would be able to work once they crossed the entrance.

[@Ostturm]

But what if the eagle incident actually explains another thing. And that thing is: how dragons breathe fire The fire was creating inside the eagle, but the bird did not had the capacity to withstand that fiery energy If one of major ingredients for a dragon is that "merged consciousness" than the Wall magic could have been a sort of catalizator for that process Just a thought

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

That is super interesting, would explain why they need a mind meld in the magic creation of dragons if the linked minds could somehow generate fire...

[@Ostturm]

Exactly

[@minnumseerrund]

Brann the Builder cast Anti-Magic Wall

[@jessejohnson8365]

The only thing I don't like about this is Bran is capable of Warging Summer from in the cave. True he never comes back in while in summer but he's still able to remote out out of the cave

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

I think this is a function of old COTF tree town that you want your wargs to be able to warg out from within for defensive purposes but don't want wargs from outside to be able to spy or have a bear rampage through your cave city. So one way blocking of that specific power for the cave and other tree towns makes sense to me as a defensive magic.

[@mikimokrysz9430]

I think the wights at Castle Black create some doubt that it's one-way. If it was one-way the wights shouldn't have been controlled once they got south of the wall.

[@emrek99205]

How was the Bran/Night King connection possible if it was blocked? Once that connection was established the wights were able to cross over the barrier as if the NK was controlling them by using Bran as a relay.

[@rileyobrien8349]

How will this affect the Westeros economy though

[@cultoay0utube]

It was Melissandre.

[@AKS-666]

Who says the can't? There were never dragons who could and as the nightking had one he used the dragon first to destroy the wall for his army.

[@Glantonite]

I think the biggest crux to this video would be the dire wolf in the first chapter of the series.

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

That wolf always has issues with how it got past the wall on any level tbh I will probably have to cover the possibilities one day. But as shown in the map at the end the direct line from winterfell to the rough area of bloodravens cave to me actually shows you can have dreams sent to bran from him and in theory the wolf connection from the cave if needed without the link passing directly over the wall. So I agree there is some more problems to solve there but I think there is more likely some work around GRRM has in mind.

[@myt110]

The question is why does the wall break a consciousness merge.

[@vizuall777]

The show runners made zero effort to make sense of any of this. The things that happened in the show will largely not happen in the books. You can’t reconcile your brilliant theories using their shady example…

[@mccrie407]

Does it have to be a sacrifice? Or is this why the Targaryens had a tradition of burning their dead with their dragons? To continue the magic?

[@deeptrlp]

Marwyn Riding Mirri This sounds so wrong in so many ways... Yew Cool theiry though :D

[@bovinicusdivinicus]

You can very clearly see daenerys's dragon fly over the wall in episode 6 of season 7 add approximately 59 minutes in

[@vizuall777]

First off, great work here. Please keep it up. I am really liking a lot of your theories and logic. However, your desire to use anything that happened in the travesty that is the last 3-4 seasons of that show is exhausting. Your theories are too nuanced and well thought out to be supported by anything that happened on the show. My advice; don’t use their nonsense to support your brilliance! You have definitely got me rethinking some things and I love it!

[@tomasvrabec1845]

Fun fact. Orell means Eagle in Slavic languages.

[@nahortesfaldet2313]

Wait a minute. The idea of three headed consciousness merge falls apart because Silverwing was, unlike Dany's dragons, hatched from a viable egg *without the need of blood sacrifice.* Her egg was put in a cradle and hatched normally, and the egg was laid like a normal reptile's.

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

My speculation is that if this is the case, back when the Targs were able to hatch healthy dragons that the sacrifices were likely coming from the orders like the dragon keepers and pyromancers doing rituals in the background. The fall of the dragonkeepers and the pyromancers as powerful orders does seem to line up on some level with the loss of the ability to hatch dragons.

[@nahortesfaldet2313]

@@michaeltalksaboutstuff and what about wild dragons? That were never bonded to anyone but were born and raised by other dragons?

[@aprilmae274]

This is awesomeness! See, the way it reads to me, is that it is the shadows Mirri summoned that were key here. That is why a dragon burst frm her brow. Those shadows reanimated the eggs and woke dragons from stone. Conversely, the shadows Mel summon "go somewhere" too. Thoros mangaged to snag one to rezz/wake Berric. The other is in Robert Strong, prolly. Thoros did something exactly right just like Dany} and poof! Rhaego was never "alive"-Mirri's shadows invaded Dany's womb. And Mirri summons several. What happens to Rhaego in utero-that didn't happen because Dany went into the tent-THAT was ALWAYS going to happen as soon as Mirri summoned those shadows. Mirri was fucking with Dany when she tells her that. There is NO controlling shadows once they are here and once they are here, they do NOT leave. They stay. Patchface is trying to tell to Mel. He is DEF telling us, the readers. Patchface talks literal mad shit, hard to puzzle out some of it-but the shadows dancing and staying? He is talking about Mirri and Mel, etc. Those shadows. I do not think the binding is the same here-I wish I could say this the way I mean it. I will try. This is not the same as warging. That's why the dragon rider bond IS different than, say, Jon and Ghost or Varymyr and his mini-zoo. The fire part really matters as being the difference. It is also why the dragons can bond with many different people throughout it's life without the same flavor as warging does. You are right, Mirri's hatred will NOT come through-it was her shadows, not HER, that bring the eggs to life. Her death pays for the life only. SHE isn't warging, like how Orell is when he dies. It is the same...and different. Dany finishes it up with the pyre, etc. I think that is why Dany feels cleansed by the fire in her visions...she feels purified and she sees herself as a dragon. The pyre-fire cleanses. Mirri, Drogo, Rhaego/herself-cleansed by fire so they don't have all the baggage that Orell's eagle does. The way it ALL reads together to me, intentions matter A LOT as well. Dany's specifically...and Thoros's. The shadows themselves have no intentions after they do what they are summoned to do. The dancing and shit they do...some of the way they are described between Mirri and Mel-the shadows want to be "alive." I wish there was a way to talk about this instead of type, sorry. Silverwing. Go back to the Doom of Hardhome. The maester rushing back to Hardhome RIGHT before it blows up...that whole story-it tells me that SOMEONE tried to hatch a dragon at Hardhome. Which also means it is NOT just the wall that prevents them, in a way. The wall somehow protects the entire land mass. Otherwise, The Others can just sail the fuck around the Wall. And dragons can just fly over/around it. They can't. They SHOULD be able to. Dragons cannot go North and The Others cannot go South as long as The Wall is up. The wall seperates Southron-North from True North and it IS a magical barrier...but it is NOT limited as a barrier to being just THAT wall. Fuck the wall, there are ways around it. Without magic, it's just a big wall. There is something going on with the wall being more than a wall. I also think the Doom of Valyria likely has something to do with Valyrians experimenting on an Other. Or a Half-Other. There is something weird about Orell's bird bursting into flame-warged animals CAN travel over the wall. They have done it without any issues before. Mel might have done that to Varymyr, on accident. Val may have done it, too. It's a lot to go into here-but I THINK Val is a real option there. It's just a bird, even if it is a spy-so why target a bird when men are fighting hand to hand? There's more, but yeah-the bird WAS/IS weird. I'll look for some Val videos by you after this-or Craster and try to get into it there. Alasayne's dragon wasn't trying to fly over the wall during a battle/war situation. Maybe that is why Silverwing was repelled rather than bursting into flames? Because even though Alasayne pushes it, they aren't in war-mode. Her dragon simply won't/can't pass. Wana bet if she REALLY went for it, Silverwing dies a horrible death? Her dragon was never going to be able fly over that barrier. Alasayne can pass over-not her dragon. Like how the whytes can pass thru-but NOT The Others, themselves. It plays into why I think someone was trying to hatch a dragon egg at Hardhome. They couldn't fly a dragon there, not even from Essos-so someone tried to hatch one. The dummies. They learned the Hardhome way that Dragons cannot be north of the wall, at all. The wall doesn't HAVE to grow in order to work. It worked when it was a "new shorty". The Wall grows because of the trees inside it and because that's what ice does. And THAT wall HAS to come down before The Others can pass into the south. Whytes can pass, they figured THAT trick out-but not Them. Not yet. I am wondering if there is another loophole to try and manipulate tho. The Others def sent an agent thru the wall-THAT is why Waymar Royce's broken sword shows up with the Wildlings when they cross thru. Whoever brought THAT sword hilt is working with Others, Craster-style. And now the 2nd Lord Commander, in a row, has been killed by Brothers of the Watch-without a trial or anything. BOTH were murdered in mutinies. Back to back. One Lord Commander {Jeor} brought whytes thru. The second Lord Commander {Jon} brought Wildlings thru. In ALL of Night's Watch history that we know of-something like THIS has NEVER happened. It MATTERS. To me this reads like there is a loophole somewhere and The Others are going for it. Baby Monster, Craster's son, is at Castle Black. We know his brothers are Coming. Maybe one has. Someone sure has. For sure. That broken sword of Waymar's...Craster's confidence in remaining "safe"-people and The Others can make deals of some type, in some kind of way. Somewhere, someone knows how to talk to The Others. Or the Others know how to communicate somehow with humans. The Others are trying to find a way without bringing the wall down..OR they are trying to bring the wall down without a horn. I can't tell if The Others want the wall brought down or if They know that is bad for EVERYONE if the Giants wake up. To me it reads like The Others are trying break the magic somehow without bringing the wall down-whether that is simply because they have NO other way {no horn to blow} to pass, or if they are afraid of what happens when they do. No matter what, they are clearly limited in what They can do to get around the wall but they ARE trying.

[@eszym33]

if jon gets brought back and has merged with ghost he will have a dual mind. but if he bonds with a dragon too he'll be a 3 minded being himself

[@rileyobrien8349]

Ok I thought I was way off the deep end and I ain’t ever heard anyone say the way his Wyrwoods covered in Ice I’ve heard dragons, I’ve heard giants, I’ve heard children of the forest ! Trees make more sense ….. there’s definitely a wyrwood gate present.

[@kpthefan6657]

Aegon the conqueror flew over the wall. He saw what was in the frozen north.

[@sirsplintfastthepungent1373]

I, broke past the fence.

[@fibonaccino69]

This would certainly explain the mystery of the combusting eagle! I'm right around this point in the story on my current re-read; I agree that Mel seems like a misdirection for the cause of it. Further evidence is the Night Fort gate that magical beings cannot cross, Jon can't sense Ghost with the wall in between including while warged into ghost during a wolfdream and Ghost can sense the other direwolves hundreds of miles away. Ghost/Jon makes the distinction that they know that Lady is dead but Summer he just can't sense.

[@smhassassin9285]

Don't feel bad about ignoring timelines and geography. The writers kinda forgot they exist. Also, within your theory about dragon creation, the person who got sacrificed to create Silverwing could be the reason Silverwing wouldn't cross the wall. If that person was knowledgeable about magic, Silverwing could've just been like "lol NOPE" in the same way Drogon likes the Dothraki Sea.

[@xavier84623]

So is rheago Danny’s baby?

[@Thecrimsonking01]

what about all the dragons born during the Targaryen reign

[@ismata3274]

👍

[@micahmcfadden8082]

The eagle wasnt flying over the wall when it caught fire it says above the wall

[@TheTayJay93]

Slight issue I want to throw out, Varamyr is not that simple. We know now that his human body is not his original human body, that was killed when he was just a child. So Varamyrs human body is also a Warg and merged consciousness. Therefore when the Eagle died Varamyr should no have been able to automatically go back into the human body any more than the wolves or the shadow cat

[@SpiritStoneWarrior94-yx3gs]

No we don't, that sentence could very much be him talking about his first death while warging in to something without realising it and his father ended up killing the animal he'd warged in to.

[@wknight8111]

Didn't bloodraven warg crows to spy on bran at winterfell while he was north of the wall?

[@michaeltalksaboutstuff]

I think his cave is actually somewhere in the circle area on the map at the end which means the line to Winterfell as the 3 eyed crow flies is actually not ever passing over the wall. Which actually is good evidence that going around the wall works. Magic just can't go directly over it would seem.

[@daneocallaghan230]

True, but doesn’t this barrier only apply to the three headed consciousness merge? The blood raven using crows would just be two headed, no?

[@jamesdavidjett]

The wall is ice magic, the dragons are fire magic. And I think bran is marked, he's turning evil.

[@starfishsignal]

I just always assumed the Three Headed Dragon was because there were originally three Targaryeans who set up westeros as a kingdom, there are three of them but all a part of the same organism. This mindmeld/having a rando third mind stuff seems kinda far-fetched. Why would they need a third random brain? The dragons show fealty to their riders, but i dont know if they are brain-linked or anything. I think the wall is simply a magic-sink/interefernce block -- so creatures linked magically in the north will not cross the wall because they will be separated from their controllers. The dragons not wanting to cross the wall could simply be it feeling the wall absorbing and redirecting its energy, a massive ward. A dragon will not want to go near it anymore than a cow would want to cross an electric fence. I feel like the blood sacrifice is more of a commitment/oath type magic -- Dany loses it all but harnesses it into her magic instinctually. She is not declaring any sort of "eyes open" it is fully her stepping into her power as a wielder of magic and burning away the trappings of her physicality, thats why all her hair burns off and she's bald.

[@Snitchdust]

Okay, so with your theory of Drogo being in Drogon, Myri in Visaryon, would that mean Rhaego is in Rhaegal? And with Jon being both Fire and Ice would he be able to double bond with Rhaegal? Or have like a 4 headed bond? So extra powerful.

[@GrayRazor]

The dragons joined the nights watch and the wall allowed it to pass

[@FerretJohn]

Where in the books does it say they can't? They certainly could in the show.

[@chad63]

what if silverwing was being warged at that time thats why it didnt want to fly over the wall the warger dont want the queen to wander over the wall

[@roberttonner354]

The battle was beyond the wall so why would The Owl Fly beyond The wall

[@Konlath]

So... kinda like the Evas in Evangelion...

[@alsharpe7213]

I think you’ve gone way overboard big guy

[@elpsykongroo8308]

Great video...Ya. The eagle flying over the wall always feels like a plot hole given all the other instances of the bond being broken. Though the dying by actual flaming combustion feels a bit too Essos/Rhollor magic than the more subtle magic of the North (although you can't get more overt with magic than a Giant Ice wall but even that has a more primordial vibe to it). Regarding the three heads thing, I have had a theory that traditionally, for previous Targaryens, the multiple still births with weird dragon-like features were the blood sacrifice on a more genetic/familial level that their race had to pay in return for having the power to bond dragons. Not in a one baby to one dragon sense but as a more long term bloodline sacrificial curse.