Did GFCI Receptacles Change Without Us knowing?

[@sjpropertyservices3987]

Thank you for sharing. As a home inspector I encounter both self testing and non self testing GFCI receptacles. I also routinely see GFCI receptacles that either wont trip or will not reset after tripping. Periodically testing GFCI protected receptacles is the prudent course of action.

[@BackyardMaine]

Thanks for sharing! I have found the same thing many times. I have also found a lot of them wired wrong as well.

[@stevelacombe5291]

Sometimes it will drive you crazy trying to figure out what’s going on when somebody puts more than one GFCI on the same circuit. I honestly don’t see that many of the self-testing type. Next time I’m at the big box store, I’m going to see if they have any of the older style.

[@stargazer7644]

Keeping toasters out of bathtubs is even more prudent.

[@BackyardMaine]

@@stargazer7644 That's usually an intentional situation.

[@MrMike4833]

​@@BackyardMaineunless it's the same gene pool related to drying your hair while taking a bath

[@wmcomprev]

There is one thing to be aware of if using the plug-in GFCI tester. A GFCI receptacle is permitted to replace an old, 2-prong (i.e. no ground hole) receptacle. When used for that, it's supposed to have a sticker placed on it that states "No Equipment Ground," since there's no ground wire in the box. The self test button will still work when wired this way; however, the plug-in tester will not. The plug-in tester works by shorting the hot to ground and since there's no ground wire to short to, nothing will happen.

[@foogod4237]

Yeah, you need to check the lights first, and if the outlet tester shows a disconnected ground, then there's no point in using the tester's test button, because it won't do anything, even if the GFCI is just fine.

[@mernokimuvek]

I does NOT short live to ground, only passes a small current through a resistor.

[@SilverMt.]

I had a friend who has a 10 yr old pretty high price home. In one upstairs bathroom the outlet was wired to a GFCI in the garage. I had to help him find it . Crazy what the did ,. great video. Thanks

[@BackyardMaine]

Oh wow! I'm surprised to hear that about a 10 year old home.

[@paulholmes672]

Had a work colleague, he had a two story house, probably about the same age. He had one of the upstairs bathrooms receptacles die so he figured GFCI. Started looking for the master outlet, finally found it in the Garage on the first floor underneath it. Did some exploring, another bathroom, not over the garage, had no dedicated GFCI either, found it downstairs in the laundry room. As all of these houses were development projects housing, they were all built with assembly line techniques, and seeming less systematic and more 'fast as possible' methods. I would think they wouldn't have passed inspection, but maybe they apply the Boeing method of quality inspections.

[@pfcrow]

Lots of comments about never having had a GFCI outlet fail: I've had at least two in our house. One was in a half-bath, and it just didn't work reliably when I tried to use it. My outlet tester showed a fault (I don't remember exactly what the light code was, but I think it indicated ground/neutral miswire). It was wired correctly, but apparently had an internal failure. The other GFCI that failed was in the garage where our Internet equipment plugged in (the ONT for fiber-optic), and it just tripped frequently for no good reason. Replacing it eliminated all the random trips.

[@BackyardMaine]

They can fail but it's not common. Sounds like you had some bad luck. I have about 12 or more of them in and outside my home that I installed 26 years ago and I have never had a failure.

[@michaelstora70]

I have had a lot of failures outdoor--I assume from moisture.

[@jamesfischer2427]

There are some "smart GFCIs" that count trips and can lockout resets when the GFCI is in danger of failing mechanically caused by too many open-close operating cycles. These devices do not count tests, where you push the test button on the GFCI device, but they do count trips caused by pushing the button on the circuit tester.

[@BackyardMaine]

Interesting.. I haven't heard that..

[@retrozmachine1189]

Seems like a strange thing to need. Only looking in from the outside these types of devices in other parts of the world are rated at many thousands of operations. They should never reach the point where they are mechanically end-of-life.

[@AgentOrange96]

I only found out about self-testing GFCI's recently while updating the outlets in my home for aesthetic reasons. I had taken note of which side was line and which side was load, and even noted that the new GFCI was upside down compared to the old one in that regard. Yet I still managed to initially wire it backwards. The self test was able to let me know that which was nice!

[@BackyardMaine]

You are not alone. This is a common issue and have found several that were wired wrong over the years. You may have even had it right and the guy before you got it wrong. The reverse line/load function is a really nice feature.

[@fishbones2]

I had early GFCI receptacles in my grounded home that would false trip when an appliance was initially plugged into them. After plugging the device in I could press the reset button and everything was fine. I narrowed it down to capacitive and inductive loads. Like rechargeable shavers. The small in-rush current these devices drew caused the GFCI to assume a fault because more current was going in on the hot side, versus how much was exiting on the neutral side. Replacing these with newer GFCI devices solved the false tripping issues.

[@johnr.french4982]

I also began having this false trip problem with the wall-mounted GFCI receptacle when I installed T5 fluorescent lights under kitchen cabinets to replace the big old T12 type.

[@doug8718]

Your explanation is not actually what's happening. For any normal load, any current on the "hot" is also present on the neutral, regardless of whether it's a resistive load, inductive, or capacitive. The inductive/capacitive loads just impose a phase shift between the voltage and current. If the in-rush current was not equal on both conductors, it would have to be exiting elsewhere. It's likely that the GFCI outlet was just faulty.

[@everythinghomerepair1747]

Great information about these devices. I think if anyone actually tested their GFCI every month it would be broken in short order from all that testing. I’ve seen them last 25-30 years (they don’t make them like they used to) rarely being tested and when I test it, it still works.

[@BackyardMaine]

You are correct. I wired my house 26 years ago and every GFCI is original, even the ones outside.

[@mikewatson4644]

I recently did a kitchen remodel on my home that was built in the 1960s. I ran a separate circuit for every plug in and have a GFCI. I used a tester like you showed to test each circuit as it was completed. 1 of the new GFCI outlets was defective right out of the box. It showed with a red led, couldn't be reset and was always live. I replaced it immediately. Big upgrade from 1960s wiring. Also installed a new 200 amp service entrance to replace the original 100 amp. Thank you for the video. It is good to know that I did everything correctly.

[@user-em6ie2be7x]

Really appreciate the detailed Video. I have a few GFCI outlets in my house, so I'll use this method & test them more often. 🧑🏿‍🔧

[@BackyardMaine]

Glad you found it helpful. Thanks for watching!

[@danjoe22]

Great discussion. Just about all one needs to know. Thank you.

[@BackyardMaine]

Thank you..

[@gunks_getaway]

What you meant to say was that a large company (like EATON) developed a new technology, and they used their push at NFPA and UL to force everyone to use their patents. Much more likely.

[@BackyardMaine]

Do I sence cynicism? lol

[@gunks_getaway]

@@BackyardMaine It wont be long before "smart" outlets will be required. They need a way to shut us off. I am fully aware how crazy this sounds, but as time goes by this sentiment is less and less tin-foil-hat.

[@carolynraffl8271]

I do volunteer work and we are installing combination CFCI and ARC fault breakers. We do not install individual GFCI receptacles.

[@ABobsLife]

Nicely Done Air Force!

[@BackyardMaine]

Thank you! 🇺🇸

[@BartlettTFD]

I really appreciate the information you provided in this video👍

[@robm3063]

In the Chicagoland market it's easy to tell what the load side wires are. The standard is purple hot and gray neutral. Of course you probably have to learn how to bend EMT for wiring your house first.

[@gorak9000]

Yup, because chicago is so special - and the rest of the world gets by just fine without having all wiring in conduit... more useless regulation

[@JohnThomas-lq5qp]

While at one of our great 8 yearly IAEI meetings/ continuing education class they told us that when UL labs tested hundrrds of GFCI devices they were disappointed in how many either were not working or would not trip. This helped to have manufacturors to make all GFCI receptacles but not more expensive GFCI circuit breakers to have the automatic test function & miswired ones to not be anle to energize. The shelve test is not 100% gool proof because it does not open the relay contact so you still must perform monthly push test button to make sure it's working.

[@JasonBrammer-w5h]

Maybe you should explain what a back-to-back gfci is and the problems that can cause

[@nukiepoo]

The test button is quite amusing. It did used to apply a 10k OHM resistor between line and ground in the early days. Today, the actual testing happens when you PRESS THE RESET BUTTON; the test button simply mechanically releases the trip latch forcing you to press the reset button. This is why today, you can actually trip an unenergized GFCI receptacle but you will not be able to reset it. As you said, they actually test themselves automatically.

[@rlar27]

Another great video. Thank you again!

[@BackyardMaine]

Thank you... My pleasure!

[@TesserId]

I don't remember having to wire one of these, and I've generally assumed they were standalone. The idea that there would be load terminals was a bit of a revelation. And, it's more likely that I would find myself working on one of these that someone else had installed, so we can assume that in that case the warning label would already have been removed. Thank you. You are probably saving lives.

[@TesserId]

P.S. I already have one of those testers. I kind'a have thing for tools and testers.

[@glasshalffull2930]

FYI-They are designed for use for circuits with multiple outlets too and ONLY the first outlet in the circuit needs to have a GFCI outlet. It will make ALL outlets downstream protected. (Annoying is when the GFCI is in the garage, but it also protects the upstairs master bath) If you wire more than one GFCI on a circuit, ‘sometimes’ they will start interacting with each other and have false trips.

[@BackyardMaine]

Glad to hear you leaned form my video. That is the goal of the channel. Thanks for watching..

[@tielkgate]

Good Content John 👌👍👍👍👍

[@BackyardMaine]

Thank you my friend..

[@michaelstora70]

My house has a 3-gang box in a bathroom fed by 2 breakers. When I first moved in, one breaker was connected to the side of the GFCI and the other connected to load! Good thing I have thick skin. I also had switched lamp outlet that was hot all the time and I could not figure out the issue. Finally I realized they had connected the red (switched) and black (unswitched) hots together in the fake fireplace which back fed what was supposed to be the switched line. I'm also finding a lot of 12ga-12ga-14ga pigtails which I am replacing as I find them.

[@michaelstora70]

I was unable to find non-self testing units for my RV in outlet style, so I ended up getting GFCI breakers instead. Often an RV will be hooked up to an outdoor branch circuit for battery maintenance or visiting a friend or relative and a self-testing GFCI can trip the upstream GFCI. Feeder circuits are not supposed to have GFCI (with an exception for boat docks) so this is not supposed to occur. A dedicated RV outlet is a feeder circuit. Recent code changes have required outdoor branch circuits (like a welder or electric vehicle outlet) to have GFCI and a lot of electricians and inspectors have apparently misunderstood this. This will result in GFCI-protected RV outlets at a non-trivial number of parks. If your self-testing device trips one of those back at the fuse box after hours, your site might be without power until morning.

[@ken481959]

Though not exactly the same thing, but we replaced our toaster a couple years ago, and the new one will not allow you to push down the handle to lower the mechanism unless the toaster is plugged in and energized. My brother is a retired electrician, and I am a retired pipefitter, and we have discussions about various issues of our trades regularly. He is the super for a elder apartment complex in Vancouver, Wa, and I live here in Pa, so we talk about things he finds all the time. It is an older complex, and the various problems that he finds are often due to either a lack of codes or simply that the codes used during construction were just poor. Thanks for the info.

[@pattaschner6377]

That little indicator light in the bottom corner could be pretty worthless. My water softener has a big block plug that the cord goes out the bottom. So, it uses the bottom outlet, which would then block that light.

[@ourv9603]

I like that little LED but I have found with those I have outdoors in weatherproof boxes, the LEDs have a short life expectancy and quit. !

[@nmgt1048]

I remember plugging in something (Christmas lights, extension cords, power tools) into a GFCI outlet and not having it work, then pushing the reset button and it did not reset. Every time that happened, I had to replace it with a new one. Most of the time, they were outdoors. I now found out that the electronics inside them got damaged by the water getting inside them. When I put in GFCIs for outdoor use, I put in a regular outlet that is also run off the load connection of a GFCI installed indoors. I always installed them correctly.

[@n085fs]

I like the external tester, because the "test" button simply shorts the hot and neutral together which causes a small arc and eventually deteriorates the outlet.

[@BackyardMaine]

Actually the test button bleeds a small amount of current through a resister much like the circuit tester but the circuit tested give you a visual indication that the power to the receptacle was actually cut off.

[@bbol745]

I recently upgraded a 1983 sunline camper. It had a federal pacific panel and only 2 circuits, 1 of which was for the air conditioner. I replaced the panel with a square D and added a few new circuits. I also added GFCIs in the kitchen and on the new dedicated outdoor circuit. I bought leviton non tamper resistant GFCIs on Amazon. I just double checked the listing, they are self test. Not sure if they are new old stock or still being manufactured but I am happy to know that I have the newer technology in my RV. On a side note, GFCI on a dedicated circuit for a refrigerator or freezer is the dumbest thing ever. Dedicated circuit, single, not duplex receptacle, and the fridge or freezer being the only thing plugged in shouldn’t have GFCI protection for obvious reasons. Even a WiFi connected GFCI that notifies you of a trip is NOT the solution. So you get the notification. If you’re not home you have 4 hours to get home to reset a fridge, 12 hours to reset an upright freezer and 24 hours to reset a chest freezer.

[@KenCool57]

Hi John, love your channel. I have a question concerning GFCI protected circuits on kitchen counters. A few years ago, my mom had her whole house renovated including a new 200-amp service panel and all new wiring, outlets, switches, etc. One day while I was trying to verify which breakers controlled which countertop outlets, I noticed that the electrician had used a double pole breaker with the toggles bridged together to protect the two countertop circuits. Is this correct? It seems a bit odd to use a double pole circuit breaker to protect two separate 120V circuits. I thought double pole breakers (when bridged together) were only for 240V split phase circuits powering a single circuit/load. What do you think?

[@BackyardMaine]

Thank you. What the electrician did was run a multi-wire branch circuit to the kitchen counter. This type of circuit carries two hot wires from different poles in the panel but they both return on a common neutral. There are dangers associated with this type of circuit which is why they are required to have pole ties. That requires the breakers to be side by side or two pole and that both open simultaneously. It save a little bit of money on the installation but I don't like them because to many people don't understand the dangers especially the homeowner who may be working on them in the future.

[@KenCool57]

Thanks John but I'm not sure about the common neutral since they are feed by seperate nm-b. You mentioned dangers with this type of circuit. What are they and why must both breakers open simultaneously if they are two totally separate circuits?@@BackyardMaine

[@BackyardMaine]

Multi-wire branch circuits can be really confusing. Im going to create a video discussing them in detail along with the dangers very soon. It's high on my creation list. I don't know if you're subscribed to the channel but if you are and you click the bell as well you will be notified when I upload so you won't miss that video when it comes out. It will make sense I promise but it's tough to explain in the comments. @@KenCool57

[@twigd3825]

using a solenoid voltage tester (square d wiggy, ideal or klein ). test the receptacle from line to ground a properly working gfi will trip.

[@jimc4731]

Just wondering, can one install gfi outlets that are on the same feed circuit?

[@bradh8530]

Will the tester trip the GFCI if a bootleg ground is used? I’m a home inspector and use the testers all of the time. I’d like to know if there’s a way to check for bootleg grounding without having to remove the cover plate and looking for a jumper between the neutral and ground terminals.

[@foogod4237]

A bootleg ground will still trip using the tester (unless they tied it to the load side), so unfortunately that probably won't tell you either. AFAIK, the only reliable way to detect that is either to open it up and look, or to use a fairly sensitive meter to measure the resistance between the neutral and ground pins (if it's a real ground, there will be maybe an ohm or two of resistance from the wire going all the way to the main box and back again. If it's just a jumper there will be basically zero resistance between the two.) Note that if you're trying the meter trick, you should do it when the power is off. Otherwise, if somebody wired an outlet backwards (or there's some other problem with the grounding, or you just touch the wrong pins by accident), you'll likely fry your meter in the process. Actually, I suppose _if the GFCI is also protecting other outlets,_ and you use the tester on one of the _other_ outlets, then if there's a bootleg ground on the remote outlet (not the GFCI one) the tester would not trip the GFCI when pressed, so I suppose in that specific scenario, it may actually be possible to tell..

[@KenCool57]

Hi John, but does that apply to circuits with individual neutrals? I see your point if the circuits share a common neutral, but if the have separate neutrals, I don't see the need for both circuits to trip together.

[@BackyardMaine]

I'm showing your comment on my GFCI video so I'm a bit confused. I have another video where I talk about multiwire branch circuits where you will have two hot wires from opposing breakers in the panel that return on a common neutral. With this type of circuit the breakers needs to trip and be turned on and off by a common handle or approved breaker tie. The line and load connections on a GFCI are different. The power will feed into the line side along with other parts of the circuit that won't be protected by the GFCI. The GFCI will protect whatever is connect to the receptacle and anything down stream connect to the load side of the receptacle. Both the hot and neutral connections on the line and load side cannot be mixed up. I hope this helps Ken.

[@mrdan2898]

I admit I've seen that little indicator and had no idea what it was. I just ignore it.

[@crazysquirrel9425]

Can you chain GFCI outlets on the same circuit? Or add one to a circuit that already has a GFCI breaker?

[@BackyardMaine]

Having duel protection would make no sense. They will work but why spend the extra money. In locations like kitchen countertops where you may want to run two or three GFCIs on the same circuit for aesthetics rather and one with a few standard receptacles wired to the load side it makes sense. But you would parallel off the line side rather than connect to the load. I have heard people in the comments say that doing that is a problem but I have never found that to be the case and the manufacturers make no mention either.

[@pfcrow]

After having a tripped GFCI that wouldn't reset in our kitchen, I found out that it was because the other one had tripped, and it wouldn't reset without power. There are two circuits for the kitchen outlets, but when they were wired, they accidentally put both GFCIs on the same circuit and left the other unprotected. I'm glad I fixed that. In most cases having multiple GFCIs on the same circuit is due to a mistake like that and should be avoided. It does nothing to add protection, creates hassle if it trips, and adds expense. On the other hand, if you wire the first GFCI using pigtails so that the next receptacle isn't chained through the load wires, then that will work just fine. This gives the advantage of having each outlet with it's own independent reset button, and if something trips one, the other stays live. That could be useful in some very specific situations, such as where the GFCI is hard to access, so if the trip is from a different receptacle, you would then be able to reset it more easily.

[@Mike1614YT]

I'd like to see all the damp circuits have GFCIs on the panel only at new construction, so homeowners know where to go to reset the GFCI. Many older houses have GFCIs that trip, and finding the reset outlet can be difficult- it may be outside, in the upstairs bathroom, in the garage, etc. I had a customer who had a packed garage, couldn't even step into it (which is more common than you might think) and the reset GFCI was in there- somewhere- but where? They had to hire 2 men to unpack the whole garage to find it, and reset it. And they lost all the food in their garage freezer. yes I know garage freezers and fridges shouldn't be on GFCIs.

[@garbo8962]

While at an IAEI continuing education class maybe 8 years they they bought up that after UL tested hundreds of GFCI receptacles they were disappointed to how so many did not work and believe some failed to trip so they pushed for the self testing & failure to operate if wired incorrectly feature but way more expensive GFCI circuit breakers do not have to have self testing feature. Bet less then 5% of GFCI receptacles are tested monthly !

[@tylersheehy3918]

my gfci outlits are 20+years old shuld i replace em? still work good

[@BackyardMaine]

Mine are too. Actually about 26 years old. No I would keep them as long as they still test fine.

[@foogod4237]

Personally, I wouldn't swap them out if they're still testing fine (unless you're doing other work on/around the outlet anyway for some reason, then maybe), but when they're that old I would definitely make a point of testing them on a more regular basis...

[@mattdude]

Only replace them if the GFCI protection fails or if plugs slip out of the receptacle easily. Otherwise, you’re fine.

[@GregChabala]

Ugh, what genius at NFPA thought having a green LED on all the time was a good design feature? It should be unlit unless it detects trouble.

[@BackyardMaine]

Many of them are unlit like the Eaton for example so it's really brand specific. They aren't required to have a green light, they are only required to notify us when there's a problem. NFPA has nothing to do with the change. CPSC, NEMA and UL.

[@jaycahow4667]

I think it is a great idea as it shows there is power at the outlet. When you have outside outlets they must be GFCI by code and I always put a switch on them so they are not live all the time. I can just look at the outlet and see if it has power or whether I need to switch it on first. Just because there is no power does not mean there is always an issue.

[@foogod4237]

Also, the problem with having a fault indicator be off normally is that if there's a fault which also prevents the LED from being able to turn on, you will never be able to tell the difference between that fault condition and "it's working fine!" Most of these LEDs are pretty tiny, so they're not going to be lighting up a room or anything (I've got several of these outlets and I honestly don't even notice the LEDs unless I'm looking to see if they're actually lit), and it's not like they consume any real power, so...

[@Cotronixco]

What is the test resistance from hot to ground in a GFCI with integrated test button?

[@BackyardMaine]

The test button will leak 6-9mA of current to ground. To cause 6mA of current at 120V, you would need a resistance of 20,000 ohms or a 20k Ω resistor. But the self test is done with an integrated self test circuit which will only trip the device if there is a problem with the GFCIs functionality.

[@Cotronixco]

@@BackyardMaine Great reply, thanks! Do you have any idea at what amount of leakage current to ground (or actually what amount of difference in current flow of hot and neutral) a GFCI normally trips?

[@BackyardMaine]

@@Cotronixco Its not exact but between 4-6mA or .006A. I hade a video going over this in more detail. kzbin.info/www/bejne/goq6hp2nbbiHarM

[@Cotronixco]

@@BackyardMaine Thank you!

[@pauldrice1996]

What about testing for bootleg ground?

[@BackyardMaine]

I love it.. Thank you for the video idea. Stay tuned..

[@garbo8962]

Pisses me off that the NEC makes GFCI receptacle manufacturers that often cost a third of the price of a GFCI circuit breaker in thier GFCI receptacles but not in circuit breakers. At an IAEI meeting we had a great guy from UL labs explain that they inspected & tested hundred of indoor & outdoor residential GFCI receptacles. Due to the high # that did not work they helped with having the self test feature mandatory for GFCI receptacles. They also were amazed the high # of outdoor recrptacles that were degraded from the sun. Not sure if that finding had anything to do with having now must use weather resistant ( WR ) outdoors.

[@garymills3082]

If you have a open ground the tester will not trip the GFCI

[@pfcrow]

Thank you! I converted our receptacles to the new tamper resistant variety to be kid-safe (I hate the plastic safety plugs). I noticed that all the new GFCI receptacles had the LED lights, and didn't realize why. I've avoided changing one out because I really don't want the LED light in that room at night. Now I know why I can't find a replacement that is tamper resistant without a LED.

[@brainwater]

Use black electrical tape to cover up the LED.

[@BackyardMaine]

Glad it was helpful.. Thanks for watching.

[@davidconnolly7693]

Eaton GFCIS ones (available on amazon) only show the light if there's a problem / tripped. I've been buying them for that reason. I HATE the little green light in bedrooms

[@donaldshimkus539]

I have done electrical work for 50 yrs and seen all kinds of crazy wiring scenarios. I've seen things that so-called pros couldn't/wouldn't handle and it never stopped me from fixing, dismantling or somehow making things safe and correct. EVER! I AM all about safety! I never walked out on an unsafe situation. If I couldn't fix it then or couldn't fix it period, I disabled it. That simple. And I have seen some scary stuff. BTW, this was for the guy who had his house wired by the tiling guy.

[@ScottWConvid19]

About 3 or 4 times per month my one GFCI receptacle pops just from plugging in or unplugging an appliance. So, it must work lol

[@glasshalffull2930]

It is possibly an indicator that that GFCI is gong bad and should be replaced. Same goes for a circuit breaker that trips for no obvious reason once a month.

[@donaldhollingsworth3875]

Every time you trip a GFCI receptacle, it reduces the service life of that GFCI receptacle. This also applies to GFCI circuit breakers.

[@BackyardMaine]

Actual trips from ground faults will reduce the life of the device however periodic testing doesn't reduce the life span. Even with a GFCI tester the receptacle is only exposed to a very small amount of current through a resistor and it's not hard on the device. GFCIs will have a 15 - 25 year life span even if they are tested monthly which is rarely done.

[@jamesnasium7036]

@@BackyardMaine It matters little to the service life of the device whether the trip mechanism and the electronics controlling it is activated by the small current through it's own internal test resistor, a sample of the small imbalance between line and neutral currents as detected by it's current transformer, or by your external tester. What does matter is the size of the contacts that the load current passes through. Those are typically considerably smaller than those found in a common wall switch with similar current ratings. If the GFCI is carrying a heavy load current at the instant when it activates or experiences large inrush currents at the instant when it is manually reset, those contacts will erode and /or fail with relatively few operations.

[@rb8049]

Ha ha, no one tests GFCIs. I won’t. But it is good to test all outlets are wired and GFCI is functioning once you move in or have electrical work done or changed outlets. I found a few which were miswired.

[@BackyardMaine]

An initial test is a must to make sure there are no wiring problems. I know.. people don't test them which was the reason for the change.

[@boeing757pilot]

I've never understood the need to install GFCI protection for properly grounded, stationary appliances. The purpose of GFCI is to protect devices with non-existent or questionable grounding

[@trempah]

No that is not the purpose of GFCI. The purpose is to trip on unbalanced current between hot and neutral-which could be going through you and frying you-whereas circuit breakers trip when current exceeds a certain value.

[@boeing757pilot]

@@trempah Thanks. I understand the theory of both.. But, a properly grounded appliance should protect you from electric shock, regardless of GFCI protection.

[@josephpchajek2685]

@@boeing757pilot Then you don't understand.... Think bathtub, pool, etc.... Your breaker box is not gonna protect you from a potential issue there until it's too late. It's not just about properly grounded...

[@boeing757pilot]

@josephpchajek2685 Oh, but I do understand. A properly grounded appliance will protect one from electrical shock. In fact, the entire purpose of GFCI was for use when non-existent or questionable grounding existed. I'm not stating that GFCI won't add an additional layer of protection..

[@n085fs]

Won't be too long before a self-testing receptacle can self-replace.

[@BackyardMaine]

🤣

[@exotictones1054]

Ty

[@BackyardMaine]

Absolutely..

[@ScottWConvid19]

My entire house was wired by a tile guy by trade. He didn't even do good work with the tile he installed. I have so many electrical issues. I had some arcing and popping going on in an open junction box in my attic for a couple years. It constantly caused my breakers to switch off. There's 6 or 8 gauge stranded aluminum twisted into 14 gauge solid copper. No wire nuts, no tape and the mound of wires was so high they couldn't cover it with another box, so they left it open in the attic. I had a 30 year veteran electrician come out to assess what needs to be done. He genuinely looked afraid when he saw how everything was installed. I told him I'd pay him whatever he wanted to just rewire everything correctly, no matter what the cost. He said it was beyond his skill level. 30 year veteran electrician with his own company. Yeah, that made me feel safe lol

[@BackyardMaine]

Wow, thats not good.. Sounds like a complete re-wire.

[@foogod4237]

Please keep trying. That literally sounds like a house fire just waiting to happen. (I'm not kidding.) I guarantee you that there are electricians out there who can handle it, you just need to find them. And if you can't find somebody willing to tackle the whole thing, see if you can get somebody to at least identify and work on some of the worst issues first, and maybe make things better a bit at a time...

[@crazysquirrel9425]

NOT going to pull the refrigerator out every month just to test a GFCI nor uninstall the microwave, test the outlet, then reinstall either. I have a plug in GFCI tester. No problem. All that testing wears out the GFCI too. And GFCI's are NOT cheap to replace either. How about installing GFCI circuit breakers instead?

[@BackyardMaine]

You can surly install a GFCI circuit breaker but it will cover the whole circuit and they are a lot more expensive. Testing a GFCI doesn't wear it out according to the manufacturers. The tester just leaks a small amount of current through a resistor to ground. A solid ground fault experienced multiple times can cause premature failure.

[@LoveClassicMusic0205]

They're a lot cheaper than they used to be. I work for an electrical contractor and we are able to get them for about $7.00 each and a little bit more for the weather resistant type.

[@foogod4237]

Yeah, there's no way that testing an outlet, even every month, will make it fail noticeably faster at all. Any good one will still last for many decades, at least, even being tested all the time. If your GFCI outlets are failing faster than that, then you _need_ to test them because they were crappy to begin with and will probably fail whether you test them or not (you just won't know they've failed). Getting to hard-to-reach ones is sometimes an issue, I'll admit. That's why I actually prefer putting things like fridges on ordinary outlets which are just wired downstream from (and protected by) another GFCI elsewhere (so they're GFCI'd, and still meet code, but you can still test the GFCI without having to get at that specific hard-to-reach outlet in the back). Though to be honest, I actually prefer GFCI breakers (or combination GFCI/AFCI breakers) anyway. Yes, they're a bit more expensive individually, but you generally don't need to buy as many of them to get the same or better coverage (and thus protection), so they can often actually be about the same, or sometimes cheaper in total. Plus, you don't need to test them as frequently (though I still think it's a good idea to do it every once in a while anyway), they're not as subject to deterioration due to environmental factors, and you can consolidate all of your protective measures in one place/device (no running around trying to figure out which thing tripped, etc)...

[@crazysquirrel9425]

@@foogod4237 Anything mechanical does wear out. The more mechanical movement the faster it will wear out. For me, GFCI/AFCI is not plausible as my breaker box is old and hard to find even a regular breaker. My garage is tied into the electric for an entire floor (one circuit on that floor too). No way to run more as that requires demolition of the walls and lead abatement. For now the walls are encapsulated. And the box is already full too. Don't have $30K+ to redo the house. So, will replace an outlet when it goes bad with an ungrounded GFCI. Just wish they had the GFCI's IN STORES that had my color. But best is almond, white, or gray.

[@foogod4237]

@@crazysquirrel9425 Yes, anything mechanical will wear out *eventually,* but that does not mean it will wear out _any time soon._ There are many sorts of mechanical devices that can and do easily operate continuously for many years without wearing out, depending on the design and materials. The amount of wear caused on a GFCI receptacle by testing it is so small that *it will last for many many decades* before ever wearing out, even when being tested regularly. The manufacturers even take that into account and deliberately design them so that they will reliably last through tens of thousands of test cycles with no problem, for exactly that reason. So there is absolutely no reason to avoid testing a GFCI out of fear that it will wear it out, because that fear is, quite simply, completely irrational.

[@thardyryll]

While I understand the theory behind the GFCI, putting these things behind a refrigerator has to be the worst idea ever. I am willing to assume the perceived risk of not having a GFCI behind a fridge instead of the far more likely situation of a false trip ruining the fridge contents. In fact, my late 1980s house has no GFCIs anywhere (“bad dog! “) owing to the annoyance of false trips. Ain’t nobody been electrocuted in three decades. It is important to remember that the whole GFCI thing has its origins in people who somehow thought it was OK to dry hair with a 120-volt device while sitting in a water-filled bathtub. Never was the phrase “it’s a gene pool thing” so literally true.

[@BackyardMaine]

I agree. I would use a GFCI breaker or a blank face GFCI in an accessible location feeding the fridge.

[@stargazer7644]

@@BackyardMaineI think you missed his point. He wasn't complaining about access. He was complaining about nuisance trips shutting off your fridge and ruining your food.

[@stargazer7644]

Yeah, my sump pump in the crawlspace is supposed to be on a GFCI. No way in hell. If that thing nuisance trips it floods the crawlspace in a few hours and a $10k heat pump is underwater and ruined. All it would take is one time. The other GFCIs nuisance trip enough that I know exactly what would happen.

[@davidg4288]

@@stargazer7644I agree, get rid of the GFCI and make damn sure the fridge and sump pump are grounded. No one will die if the appliance is well grounded.

[@BackyardMaine]

I couldn't agree more and I think having them on refrigerators and freezers is a bad idea. What I was trying to say is since they are required for new installations I would use a remote device. They make them with an audible alarm so you know it tripped and can reset it without moving the fridge. @@stargazer7644

[@Xanthopteryx]

Fun to see that US slowly slowly is catching up on the electrical side, but you are still so far behind and when seeing how your installations and equipment are constructed i almost get a bit scared. It is like Sweden hundred years ago...

[@ghammer9773]

I don't know why anyone would want to do this on purpose, but if a GFCI receptacle had the load wired to the line side, the protection would at best only protect downstream devices and not the local receptacle

[@mofbombay6290]

Many more people die from food poisoning when gfci's trip than electric shock !

[@BackyardMaine]

Where did you find this statistic? I agree that GFCI on a fridge or a freezer is not a good idea.

[@vanhetgoor]

At 0:28 the wall outlet is upside down, the Earth should be on top, to precent something metal falling between the plug and the outlet and then making a short circuit.

[@BackyardMaine]

Actually no.. The code and manufacturers make no mention of ground orientation. Over 80% of electricians in the US install ground down and many consumer products are designed to plug into a ground down receptacles.

[@vanhetgoor]

@@BackyardMaine Thank you for your reply, but 80% of all electricians can learn something new to improve their work and their skills. The ground should be on top. It is safer. In many countries there are regulations about this very subject. Wise people made these regulations. If you save only one child from not making a short circuit with a butter knife or anything metal frumbled between the plug and the wall outlet then you have save the world. You too can become a part of the group of people that improves safety by promoting the ground to be on top.

[@BackyardMaine]

@@vanhetgoor I am all about safety. The issue is there are also safety concerns with ground up as well. The way people naturally hold a plug with their thumb and index finger its very easy to have your index finger make contact with the hot and neutral blades of the plug when inserting or removing it from a receptacle. I personally think it's a wash from a safety standpoint. Also considering that most of you plugs these day are two prong anyway where it would make no difference. Tamper resists was a good step forward to protecting children but I do like the idea of partially insulated prongs as well.

[@joeyjennings9548]

i removed ALL my gfci outlets. they were running hot enough a plastic smell was noticed with NOTHING plugged in. all wired correct & functioning. new stuff is junk & dangerous. you can have it 👍

[@BackyardMaine]

I have never seen a GFCI get hot like that.. I believe you but in 40 years in the trade I have never seen it happen. I also haven't had any issues with the new GFCIs. An occasional failure but thats to be expected.

[@JohnThomas-lq5qp]

Have several brands of GFCI receptscles and no rwo indicating lamps are the same. One only had 1 lamp and the others two. Of course colors don't match up. Wish the NEC stop changing commly used names like nuetrals to dumb ass confusing grounded conductor but standerise what color on GFCI lamps.

[@BackyardMaine]

It’s been called the grounded conductor for at least 50 years. Probably always.

[@miketrissel5494]

I bet that this is gonna' cause a lot of lost groceries in refrigerators..

[@BackyardMaine]

I agree.. I have some ideas on how to help prevent that which I'll go into on a future video.

[@twn5858]

A new dumb addition that's a waste of electricity. Whenever I install gfcis I get the ones without the light on them. Unfortunately they're getting harder and harder to find.

[@BackyardMaine]

Eaton brand has no lights unless it's failed or tripped. It's only mA in savings but I understand your point.

[@davidg4288]

@@BackyardMaineFor a bedroom this is absolutely the way to go. I want to see a red light if something is wrong and no light if OK. Much better than having black tape on everything. Blue and green LED's are annoying at night, red is OK if not blinking or super bright.

[@jamesnasium7036]

You can modify a Light Emiting Diode (LED) pretty easily with just a black Sharpie. Thereafter it becomes a Dark Emitting Always Device.

[@michaeljavert4635]

If people use a GFCI where they don't have a ground wire, which is why they might use one in a certain area, the tester will not work. So then the button on the outlet itself must work. Also, I hate LED. There are these little green lights all over the place. They wouldn't bother me so much except that I know they're sucking power, even when nothing is on. I wish there was a way to disable those stupid LEDS so that if there is nothing powered on, on that circuit, that no electric is being consumed. As myself and others want to get off the grid and rely more and more on solar and batteries, we will want to make sure that there is NOTHING extra. So they ought to have no LED. One will know they're not working properly when they don't work. If they're not wired properly, they ought to just not work. And there might be an audio alarm on ones that run a refrigerator or life support equipment that alarm when fail. I ever get my house built, I am stipulating all outlets be switched, regardless if GFCI or not. Toggle switch to actually open the circuit, so there is nothing being consumed when that circuit is not powering anything. Really, manufacturers... STOP with the damn LED BS already !

[@BackyardMaine]

I get that but just for context the self testing GFCIs consume .5 mA of power. If you do the math on that for 24 hours a day/365 days a year at today's rates would be about 7 cents a year.

[@michaeljavert4635]

@@BackyardMaine Multiple GFCI so times (X) = X ? And for poor people, those pennies mean a lot. So maybe 2 in the garage, 4 in a basement, 4 in the kitchen, then wherever you needed a grounded outlet but have no ground wire. Then at least one in a lavatory, or in my case, 2 in a 1/2 bath (Weird wiring and I can't get into the attic to change what I need to do) so it adds up. And when people wise up and get off the grid, they need nothing extra on those batteries. And as of now, those GFCIs do not work with them. And if people are like me, if it isn't broken, don't fix it.

[@stargazer7644]

@@michaeljavert4635You don't need a GFCI in every outlet. One GFCI will cover every regular outlet downstream of it. In my house all of those outlets are wired to one GFCI in the bathroom. An LED indicator like that draws about 2 mW of power. That's less than a penny per year. Don't try to sit there and tell me that's an insurmountable financial burden for anyone, including off grid folks.

[@davidg4288]

GFCI's use power all the time anyway whether they have an LED or not. I hate LED's in the bedroom, especially blue or green which are like a night light. So I buy the GFCI's that only light up on a fault. Smoke / CO alarms get black electrical tape over the LED's, I just have to remember to remove that if there's an inspection scheduled. Of course black electrical tape works on GFCI lights too as well as phone chargers and whatnot.

[@foogod4237]

@@michaeljavert4635 Wow, you are the just the epitome of "penny wise, pound foolish". So we're up to, what, then, maybe *a whole dollar a year* of extra cost instead? If you're that worried about *literally a couple of milliamps total* of wasted power, you are _definitely_ focusing on the wrong priorities. I guarantee you there are tons of other things in your house that are wasting hundreds of times more power and money that you are probably just ignoring while you obsess over absolutely stupid stuff like this instead. For comparison, even using modern, high-efficiency light bulbs everywhere, if you leave _one_ average light bulb on when you leave a room even for *15 minutes,* you have already wasted more energy than all of the LEDs in every single one of those GFCIs you listed would have consumed in *roughly a month,* of operation, if not more. (and if you've got any old incandescent bulbs anywhere still, turning one of those on for just 15 minutes is equal to at least *8 months* of all of those GFCIs.) Heck, _the electricity that your computer consumed_ in the time it took you to write these KZbin comments probably accounts for a month or more as well. The power consumption we're talking about here is just so absolutely minuscule in comparison to just about anything else you can think of that that whole argument is really _literally_ ridiculous. (But let's be honest here, we all know it's not _actually_ about the power usage, don't we? You're almost certainly just a curmudgeon with an irrational hatred of anything new or different, who has to invent all kinds of made-up reasons not to like things so you can justify being mad at the world and never changing the way you do anything. But that's OK. Maybe if you go yell at a cloud or something it will make you feel better..)

[@stinkycheese804]

Cover something new. Ridiculous to see videos about features that have existed in most homes for decades.

[@BackyardMaine]

Nine years isn't decades and I have found that most homeowners don't know they are self testing.

[@stargazer7644]

@@BackyardMaineI was trained in residential wiring and NEC 40 years ago. I wasn't aware of the self testing units. I appreciate it.

[@cpm324]

Best solution to gfci's, change them out to a normal outlet.