Did God Want Adam and Eve to Eat the Fruit?

[@JonathanPageau]

After publishing a recent video commenting on Alex O'Connor's conversation with Jordan Peterson regarding Genesis, I decided to make June 2024's patron-only video public. For more videos like this one, please consider supporting us financially at thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe

[@Th3BigBoy]

​@@Unknown-zs8ex What does that statement even mean?

[@dafish691]

Will this mean a second patreon only video this month 👀

[@joolz5747]

Thank you I cannot afford Patreon. I love your things that you send us and I get frustrated cause I can’t see some of them but that’s gods. Well I guess. Thank you for sending anything extra. I love it thank you. God bless you Jonathan.

[@sandmancesar]

Thanks for the video Jonathan. But just as constructive critique I think you could’ve handled Alex’s conversation a bit better. You’ve gotta remember that this guy has no idea what you’re talking about. For him you just got your own idiosyncratic way to interpret sneezing and there’s no actual universal connection between your interpretation and reality. I think you’ve got to sit down with him and explain what the symbolic world is, otherwise to his audience it just looks like you’re laughing at him for something that makes no sense. Like you’re too high up, I think you’ve gotta go down and connect his rational vision of what God should’ve done to your symbolic vision of what God did. Though I don’t know how to do that, I see the difficulty. For me I’d just use Job’s justification. But there’s something that was obviously not connecting between your interpretation and Alex’s argument. But great conversation, can’t wait for the next one!

[@heidi9645]

Thank you for sharing this video! Incredibly insightful and helpful. I love the connection you draw between the garden story and Solomon. Beautiful and instructive!

[@badmen1550]

The Old Testament is really incredible when I step back and think about it. Imagine a culture writing its own complete autobiography in third-person narrative form. But it doesn’t stop there, it’s also a sort of meta-autobiography of human culture as a whole, in narrative form. But also fractally, down to the level of the individual and personal human experience. And that’s before you even start getting into the rich symbolic meaning.

[@Tropdop]

Is this JP’s secret account? 😆

[@badmen1550]

@@Tropdop Pageau might have influenced my thinking a bit.

[@aronmarc5575]

The one who knows is the one who saw the END inn the beginning ✨️ All 4 🎶Signs 👋and woNdeR🪱🤔 GoSpeL your SOUTH=naM oT. S'eh Brew☕️Sunn🪜Erie Nation Ancient Name: F=Ph=pi=pey♍️ Pey Pictograph:Mouth Meanings:Open, Blow, Scatter, Edge Sound:P (stop), Ph (f) (spiRant👅)👈Bluh👻S'ehUs Christ CramNorA 👈 WORD🪞Drov=Tribe aGaiN noT from your WORD🌎 AdaM👈 Bir=TeSlA👈 EVE =LipHe =AronMarC 🥖HpAol SunArU 👈Heaven in Hebrew🐾💤 Remember🪞RedMeMer 🐎👈 🎨 ART HE TypeSSeqiT gentileSSelitmap. aGaiN iAM A Fr33D MaiSoN👈 WHO drew hiS Line inn MaY Land oN Adril🎱 Your👃 LesSon👈 waS We77 Drawn uP 🐎👈Mount= ✍️🏻Draw uP 🐾 🎨Möse =We77 Drawn uP🏗 iNwardbrowN👁=Finnish Orr Dunn

[@m0rgentraum]

@@badmen1550 JP as in Jordan Peterson, not Jonathan Pageau.

[@LordAmenRa74]

Wow so yahweh told the first lie and made the first threat in the Bible. Remember, yahweh/satan does NOT want humans to know what evil is, wants us to have short brutal lives and sabotaged our species in just about every way including creating enmity between men and women (feminism!)

[@luckytoothpick]

That soccer story is the absolutely the best illustration of scripture I’ve ever heard. “The light of the glory of soccer shined down on him.” Perfect

[@SarahLindleyFarnsworth]

The Hymns on Paradise are so beautiful and deep. Sitting next to my bed for a year. I swear I read a page and think about it for a week.

[@Nobnoxious]

It’s strange that in pain what matters makes sense.

[@ilih5487]

​@@Nobnoxious Brother what are you trying to say because my arse is thinking I am resonating with what you're saying but the more I try to pin point the point of the statement the harder it is. It's like I am trying to catch air

[@Nobnoxious]

@@ilih5487 when you’re truly suffering the things that truly matter are more obvious. Health, loved ones, truth, among other things you may think of as well.

[@9502937]

Profound distinction between labeling things good and bad based on their alignment with what is given from above, as opposed to applying those labels based on my own assessment from below. Thank you. A good reminder to seek first the kingdom. Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

[@starsreflectingsky]

You just said the fear of God. The wisdom of fear is to kill the thing that makes you fear. Otherwise you are a subordinate. If you're honest enough to say that this isn't a loving God because what kind of loving God would have fear as any part of its requirements then I would more understand you. But I'm pretty clear that given the same powers and how I love people that I would be a pile of trash to design the same system and punish people for not bowing to me. But hey maybe I love better than God can. That God's capable of killing newborn babies so clearly I don't understand that God. Iweird to me that the people who made up these stories felt compelled to include these horrifying stories about murdering children in the whole population and inbreeding. And slavery and women don't matter... What garbage. It's sad that the actual Jesus character by itself is nothing like the rest of the book except for one thing. Prior to Jesus you just died. Apparently Jesus brings on eternal punishment in a system that doesn't have to have punishment at all. It's not like God has to fight against other gods in a system it can't control. But along with this insanity is a character that embraced everybody that was outcast from society. Not prisoners and not evil and not mean people. The Jesus character embraced and socialized with the misunderstood and the sick and the insulted. The prostitutes the disabled the sick. That's the only good thing in that whole book and that's the one part hardly any Christian flinging Republican even remotely knows how to do. I can't remember when Jesus voted for corporation tax cuts but maybe I'm reading the wrong book. Or lying incessantly. Or fear-mongering amongst your constituents to make them think they need to vote for you for protection. Or labeling people that provide free lunch for children as extremists But you know what a modern-day Trump follower might see feeding children as extreme. Maybe they're just being honest.

[@ALavin-en1kr]

Fear of God is Dark Age thinking. In today’s world it is love of God that brings us into alignment with truth, not fear.

[@tonyscott4333]

I shared this with an atheist friend who has always maintained that God was setting Adam and Eve up for failure by putting the tree in the garden, and then telling them not to eat from it. But your explanation makes much more sense. Like when your dad tells 14-year-old you not to drive the Cadillac but then you go out and joy ride in it with your friend. Have you been trustworthy and help you maintain it and Sean your patient humility and devotion he was planning on giving it to you for your 16th birthday.

[@CMA418]

But if you had the predictive power to see what your 14-year old son would do, that would change the context.

[@Transmutathan]

@@CMA418no it wouldn’t, because at the end of the day we are all responsible for our own decisions. The knowledge of the tree of good and evil would have been attained through a lengthy experience of life. The fruit of the tree is a shortcut, and we all know shortcuts lead to unexpected consequences in the long run. The consequence of learning that knowledge too soon in their lives led to them not having the responsible wisdom to approach such knowledge. I know it’s a bit cliche, but with great power comes great responsibility. Give a caveman a tool before he’s ready and it becomes a weapon. Our brains haven’t changed in over 10000 years, we are still cavemen

[@CMA418]

@@Transmutathan "no it wouldn’t". Yes it quite literally does *change the context*. If a parent can foresee their child being in danger(running into the street, let's say) and has the ability to prevent it, the responsibility is on the parent. If, as you say, "The consequence of learning that knowledge too soon in their lives(like the children they were, knowing nothing) led to them not having the responsible wisdom to approach such knowledge.", a consequence God(The Parent) could foresee, that parent is responsible. God could have waited to until more time had passed to place the tree in the garden, no? "with great power comes great responsibility". agreed. "we are still cavemen" agreed. hence the lingering popularity of organized religion. "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.” - Seneca(a contemporary of Christ btw, just 4 years apart at birth). I might take issue with the word "wise", but the rest seems to be fact.

[@mr.christopher79]

​@@CMA418you still have to allow them the chance to make their own decisions

[@CMA418]

@@mr.christopher79 but that depends on the circumstance and is not always true. Sometimes, out of love and care for them, you have to prevent them from walking into apparent harm.

[@marca.2235]

It’s a bit like when we teach our children to politely ask for something and not grab it themselves, despite the fact we want them to have it

[@starsreflectingsky]

I don't understand. Do you believe this story or do you think it's silly?

[@marca.2235]

I believe. It’s just an analogy using the typical father son relationship.

[@Arvak777]

Not sure if this is true but I've heard the language in Genesis is similar to when you tell a child "never let go of my hand when crossing the street". Of course there's going to be a point they can do so

[@starsreflectingsky]

@@Arvak777 I don't know about that either. Let me be the ultimate creator of the entire universe you how you react your stimuli punishment unnecessary rewards unnecessary anything because I can literally do anything I want... Don't eat this fruit because it gives you knowledge of good and evil. That includes deception and all that stuff. It also probably includes a lot of extra knowledge regarding critical thinking and everything else. Knowledge that you can actually be punished and what that might feel like and what pain might be so that if you knew the stimuli you knew you could avoid it... But says you can't have that but if you eat it I'm going to screw you over so hardcore.... And not only does God offer it to them readily but let's some other entity into this garden to actually purposely tempt them.... For all intensive purposes, that serpent is God. It's doing all of this stuff. Otherwise there's this entity that God created that's purposely against God or it's deceptive and God could just easily prevent it from being involved with humans because God has complete control over the universe at any moment. This really unusual behavior is evident throughout the Old testament and including the Jesus story. Like Job. This dude is literally described as believing in loving God perfectly and God's like let's test this out.. you already know the outcome. You already made Job do it Job's going to do. You could have tweaked anything in his life to make him not love you before this... And then proceeds just to let this weird stuff happen for no reason whatsoever because this God has nothing else to do. It has no requirements to follow no guidelines to be involved in. It doesn't have to need your worship. It doesn't have to be a human... And that's what that God is. It's people making a weird sadistic values. And come on let's get over this whole thing about special fruits.. I mean come on do we have to look at the epic of Gilgamesh to understand this kind of magic journey crap has been going on for a long time much longer prior to the Jews existing.. But the Bible has been pretty useful for people to find ways to allow slavery. It's been useful for people to fight against each other and other people that don't share that same religion or denomination. It's been wonderful for executing people for no reason other than to go against Aristotle's view of the universe which was blatantly wrong. Sure it's a really useful government tool. It allows you to punish people without any real evidential basis. It allows you to create rules following the whims of some weirdo and you can't challenge them. The whole thing is absurd

[@weatheredseeker]

​@@starsreflectingskyI'm saying this with love: the amount of irony in making this reply on this particular video would be beautiful if it wasn't coming from a source of ongoing pain

[@jessebondrocks8034]

I think a good example of the opposite of this is when David refused to slay Saul, even when he KNEW that he was to be appointed king. He refused to actualize that reality on his own and let God be the judge of when the right time would be concerning his kingship. He knew why he was to be king… because God called him to the throne to serve others; to usher in God’s kingdom and not his own.

[@kateblawas1178]

Roman Catholic here!! I took a class on John Paul II’s theology of the body, which is just a deep analysis of the beginning chapters of genesis, and wondered about the possibility of God intending Adam and Eve to eat the fruit eventually, after proper formation. I love that the church, the scriptures, and our fathers have provided such beautiful wisdom for us to encounter all these years later

[@ListinAbeyMathew]

Just adding a hymn in Syrian orthodox tradition followed in India (oriental orthodox). This hymn is sung when a child receives holy communion for the first time after baptism. "Fruit of Paradise - escaped Adam’s lips With joy, that is placed in Thy mouth today Child of baptism - go forth in glory Worship the Cross which always keepeth thee"

[@joshvarges9230]

fellow mallu😁

[@joshvarges9230]

wouldn't it be right to say venerate' instead of 'worship'

[@ListinAbeyMathew]

@@joshvarges9230 that is true. This is a mistranslation from Malayalam to English. The actual word in malayalam is "Nathi cheyuka" meaning veneration only (namskaram, kumbidal)

[@littlelulu5675]

@@joshvarges9230 I think because the Cross is the action of God it is correct to worship, the idea of the Cross has no meaning without the action of Christ the God man.....I could be wrong but I think in this reference saying it this way it is ok.....the Cross keeping someone certainly refers to the act of God upon it.....what do you think? I am only baptized five years in Orthodoxy so I am just giving my thoughts

[@joshvarges9230]

@@ListinAbeyMathew is the quote you had originally shown from the newer translations?

[@tomowens7499]

That particular story of Solomon is perhaps my favorite Bible story and i meditate on it often. I've told my own son that story of seeking 'the right way' for knowledge, with humility... it's a small blessing that this video showed up in my feed as i was thinking about it recently, but since I'm not nearly as well rounded in biblical knowledge I'd have never seen the connection to Adam. I loved this lesson, thank you...

[@burtnoyes6014]

Correction: King Uzziah tried to offer incense and was struck with leprosy, Uzzah touched the ark of the covenant and died instantly.

[@burtnoyes6014]

The same principle applies though.

[@aaronh8095]

The story of the King is almost better for illustrating the point!

[@ingihafsteinsson]

Love how Jonathan explanes like a teacher of children. It´s a gift. He speaks in such humility on a shared human plane. Easy to understand for us the common simple people. And his passion shines through with a joyfull playfullness. I am one of those who got shaken to my core by evil. Ready to jump of the ship, excit life to make my nightmares stop. But then in the last minute, God put a white speck of light in my pitch black mind ( litturally ) As the little speck of light moved ever so slow towards me in my mind, I made out what it was, it was three letter spelling God. Those letters where shining in my darkness, there was light within them. I had not thought about God for many years, so I thought I´ll talk to him and ask for help. And he awsered me and took me to a place in his world, where there was peace and love and comfort behond what is known in this world He then put thoughts into my mind, without speaking, he told me now you can defend your self, becourse you got me. The evil witch was absoloutly killing me, was gone and I slept like a child. Evil is not any men, no man is evil. It is invited into you by you. It makes many promises to you, nun of witch are true. For even though evil spirits mix truth with lies, those are still always lies. Like I would say, God is great but goodness is greater, a false statment and a lie. All truths mixed with lies are then lies. Anyhow, God bless you all and may he keep you safe.

[@Phantom8er]

Jonathan I hope this finds you. I listened to your podcast with Alex and I think that I have the answer that Alex was looking for. Below is the comment I left him but I dont know if he will see it so I hope you can see it and maybe relay it to him as long as you agree. Thanks so much Jonathan! You brought me back to Christ and I havent missed a Divine Liturgy since I started going to Chruch well over a year ago. "Hey Alex, so I was an Atheist for almost 20 years and the question you possed was a stinking point for me as well. Im now an Orthodox Christan thanks to Jonathan. To answer your question on why God put the snake in the garden at all goes all the way down to Free Will. So if Adam and Eve didnt eat of the tree of Good and Evi because God made it such, would we have Free Will. If God made reality in such a way that you could not do evil, I would make the claim that we would not have Free Will. But also I believe God did that so we can choose of our own accord to follow and love Him. An example would be do you want to wife/child to love you because they have to or do you want them to love you because they want to. I hope this find you because this helped me out trenmdously coming back to Christ. Gold bless you!"

[@KnitMyWayHome]

Thank you so much for making this available! What a gift.

[@tyfischer4739]

this video was a good follow up to your conversation with Alex where it felt like you were saying the right things but in a messier approach. I think one thing you and other theologian types should consider when talking with skeptics like Alex is to go in with sharp and more systematic approach to your concepts. otherwise skeptics will more likely dismiss what your saying since it is much harder to follow for newer listeners of that type of info. anyways keep it up John!

[@pawebrzuszek4936]

To sum up: knowledge is to know what is good or bad and wisdom is to know why something is good or bad ?

[@kimbronun6649]

Exactly 💯

[@harrylong575]

@pawebrzuszek4936 That is close but that isn't quite what I heard him say. (I could easily be wrong.) I interpreted him to say that the knowledge of good and bad is, like you say, whether something is strictly good or bad, but as for wisdom, it is not so much "why" something is good or bad, but knowing both what is goof and bad, looking past that to see their purpose in God's eyes. Now that I think about it, that's probably what you meant by "why." Anyway, God bless you!

[@ashleighk5930]

Basically. I think of wisdom as how we apply knowledge. Knowledge can be good or bad, it can lead to destruction if we don’t have the wisdom to use it/to make good choices. Technology, for instance, is a means to gain knowledge of both good and evil, if we use it for good then we are making a choice from wisdom.

[@jeaniemorkel5007]

Thank you so much for this Jonathan! Finally it makes sense to me! I appreciate your work and sharing it with us immensely.

[@oleg87sh]

This point of view doesn't change that this tree wasn't some myracle or mystic, it was completely the same as the other ones in the Garden accept of commandment from God to not to eat from it. But if they listened and asked God a permission to eat and not listened to the snake, then God would gave them that permission and said to them "see, now what you did it IS good, and if you did otherwise it would be BAD, and that what is good and bad". Very interesting video, I'm never thinked about it from that point of view. Thanks a lot!

[@echinaceapurpurea1234]

Also they thought it's bad for them to not have this fruit (it's bad of God to forbid it), and it's good to eat. They judged God to be bad and their own judgement as good. Before the serpent incident they focused on doing the task they were given and weren't considering their own opinion on their state.

[@juliastyles6223]

They didn’t trust GOD and that’s the problem 😢Even today so many won’t trust. It’s an ongoing effort always, but it’s worth it ❤

[@bankiey]

“And Heaven opened above me And down Gods tears came Lashing away at my skin My stinking, rotten frame” -My Dying Bride: And I Walk With Them

[@davidforrest4059]

Man i really needed this. Thanks to God for your work Jonathan

[@RuralRoofer]

Thanks! Loved your video on the opening ceremonies of the olympics too.

[@bettybrennan6247]

Thank you for sharing this with us. Gave me a better stepping off place to dig deeper into this great perspective!!

[@rise4rumtheeashes987]

Thanks for sharing this take. It really helps me to understand my struggles.

[@JAnastasios]

What I noticed is they want to live in a fantasy as Connor showed. They want the happy and don't want to face the reality of what we live in. And it seemed to constantly come up that he would say how unfair it was, or make allusions to how unfair it was to him, or how it should have went to him. They don't want to live in the world where they and their arbitrary morality aren't center of it, and they refuse to understand the mindset to grasp these stories. At its core. Both him and his audience just couldn't handle the possiblility that their "skeptic" view isnt truly skeptic, but dogmatically self centered atheist. They won't question whether their bar for God and the fairness of his actions are even the right bar. They won't question whether their literalistic cynical reductionist view of all things biblical and godly are even right. And they won't question their materialist starting point. They aren't very skeptical of anything. Just God. Conveniently they are only skeptical of the one who would hold them accountable in a cosmic way. Convenient.

[@fuiscklam4087]

Bullshit!

[@JAnastasios]

@@fuiscklam4087 wow, such nuance, and a true refutation of the challenge. Maybe the mirror should be used for reflection, not worship.

[@neththom999]

You don't have to be a materialist-reductionist to agree with Alex O'Connor's critiques.

[@JAnastasios]

​@@neththom999but those were the spirit of the arguments nonetheless. And I'd argue they weren't even good critiques since they are founded on his personal view of good and bad, right and wrong, fair and unfair, which without god, are either rooted in own personal opinion, or rooted in nothing. It basically came down to "bad thing happen, God mean and not real". And because he didn't question his foundation of why he questions gods fairness in the first place, and whether he even has the right mindset to understand these stories, he and his audience ended completely lost as to what Johnathan says. There's also the cop outs that Johnathan didn't directly answer the questions. But when he did get a direct answer in the past, he wasn't convinced. So Johnathan had to attempt to give him the mindset to help understand the story and therefore see the answer to his question. But nope, he is so stuck in the reductionist view of "its just a bunch of stories" like he said a lot.

[@larryjake7783]

Agreed, one of the comments above me with its emotional exclamation pretty much echos your sentiment.

[@watchaddicts1213]

Humility and obedience

[@Dmidnightmachine]

If they never ate the fruit the Bible would be a very short book.

[@ethan-sq6zv]

Haha true

[@johnrockwell5834]

It wouldn't need to exist. We will be living in Glory with God right now.

[@martanieradka4675]

God bless you Mr Pageau! What a great explanation!

[@ChaseManary]

This is exactly what I've been looking for. It answers that deep question: Why would God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil there in the first place? The idea that it was the veil is the perfect analogy.

[@MattisWell.20]

This interpretation of the Adam & Eve story is definitely a profound one, but what it seems to imply is that Adam and Eve didn’t have access to the tree of life yet until God allowed them to eat from the tree of knowledge good and evil, even though the Scriptures tell us that God said they were permitted to eat of any tree in the garden, just not the tree He forbade them from eating, and it wasn’t till they ate from the forbidden tree that they were forbidden from eating from the tree of life as well. So there’s a bit of a plot hole there for me concerning this interpretation.

[@kimbronun6649]

They were created knowing good and evil, evil is disobedience to God, they knew disobedience the moment God told them not to eat. You cant act upon what isnt in you, the fruit was a prop, as was the serpent.

[@josephpchajek2685]

This video illustrates Jonathan has a poor understanding of biblical teachings despite his symbolic literacy.

[@joshvarges9230]

he says it does come from saint ephrem assuming that it is from the hymns on paradise. the fathers on the Lord of Spirits podcast have a similar framing where adam and eve are like children and have not received the maturity to come to either the tree of life and the tree of knowledge. though at the right time God would give it unto them

[@TonyMetal]

This is the problem with this channel. I love the symbolic links and interpretations that Jonathan brings. It has helped me a lot in my biblical journey. With that being said, I believe that his perspective is very biased towards Eastern Orthodox teachings. These Orthodox fathers are analogous to Jewish Rabbis, they slowly step away from scripture and start believing that they have more wisdom than the Bible itself. It is a slippery slope into dogmatic unbiblical teachings.

[@kimbronun6649]

​@@TonyMetal One cant possibly act upon what isnt already in them, to act upon it, it already has to be IN them. That's called rightcious deciet, God didnt create the devil, we did because our hearts wanted it, we wanted the devil because we didn't want accountability. All God ever wanted was accountability, Adam, Eve, nor Cain gave him that.

[@Built_By_Bacon]

Excited for this one

[@profeh3346]

Thank God for Jonathan Pageau. ❤. I rarely understand fully what he’s trying to convey. At the time I think I do and then when trying to tell a friend I quickly see all the holes in my understanding - not unlike his son’s attempt at goalie! But his videos are done in such a manner and with such love and desire for his audience’s understanding that I am encouraged to keep at it and to keep trying…. That is truly God’s love shining through. Thank you Jonathan. Much love and gratitude. Looking forward to all things from The Symbolic World. Although you’re forcing me to read email to be aware of the new items! 🤪♥️

[@IngridAnderson-e8d]

Thank you! So interesting and helpful. I'm wondering if you've given any thought to how the Letter of James might reflect this framework? Everything you mentioned was Old Testament, and it just struck me to wonder if this way of understanding was being carried on by James. Would be curious to hear your thoughts.

[@billtimmons7071]

As a baby boomer who has been around the block, and a seasoned Dunning Krueger participant, I've had many soccer goalie type incidents. Live and learn. God is very kind and patient with those of us who struggle with pride and arrogance ... as long as we learn, adapt, and move on. Grace and mercy towards those of us flawed goalies is Solomon style wisdom IMO. May we all play "soccer" with the long game in mind - if you pardon my crude analogy :) Observing a parallel with Genesis and Kings, Adam and Solomon, and acting accordingly in our own lives is very wise. Long live the symbolic world!

[@mizflowers]

This video is a treasure to me right now, I find myself in unique circumstances where I have surpassed some old difficulties and emerged into a new chapter where I see multiple paths and prospects. To choose a path from this point is to relinquish the others, so I aim to take my time and choose wisely, but I have been having difficulty in understanding how to obtain such wisdom. I don't want to probe the opportunities as if they are potentially lesser than others and choose that which is most lucrative from a place of having degraded my respect for all the others. I can see now how to pray about this so that I may stand in my best integrity when I choose and be at peace when I relinquish the other possibilities with kindness. It will take a little time, but it's a relief knowing that I can be with God and make sure that my decision honors Him, or more specifically, Im glad to see the way I can do this without praying to be smarter than everyone else, since that seems backward and unhelpful, lol. Thank you Mr. Pageau!

[@odeean]

I want my children to be independent adults. I try to protect them from suffering. Suffering is a large part of what shapes us. It's the same situation.

[@livingbranches777]

This makes the end of the letter of Mathetes make so much more sense.❤

[@jimmakusalakavala1141]

A compelling video. Thx. Blessed be

[@vngelicath1580]

Luke going to confront Vader in Empire, is another example of this "judgment."

[@timmckinstry1547]

Why has it taken me so long to subscribe to Jonathan, subscribed!

[@watchaddicts1213]

Jonathan, I wish you could do a presentation of what became of Solomon and where he was at his end of life.

[@5up3rm4nMy3r5]

This was excellent. Thank you so much for it.

[@markd3250]

The short answer to the title of this video is 'no'. God did NOT want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, that's why he forbid it. What you started reading is the speaking of men who want to appear wise, yet speak as those who babble. The reason why God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the middle of the garden, was because he had given Adam and Eve the agency of free will. Free will is meaningless unless it has the ability and possibility of being able to choose something that God would NOT want them to do, and the only way that could be possible is if there's something there to choose that fulfills that criteria. That's why the forbidden tree was there. By giving Adam and Eve free will, and making it possible for them to truly use it, God was taking a risk that they would. It was a risk he had to take because it was the only way to create the possibility of authentic true love, which is the whole point and purpose of our existence. It is literally why we were created in the first place. Just as Adam and Eve could choose to disobey and turn their back on him, they could have also developed a deep and great love for God, which would have completely nullified the danger and threat of the forbidden tree. They would have simply obeyed God, and not touched it out of love and respect for him. This was perfectly demonstrated and exemplified by Christ, who came here to not only provide a way to redeem us from the consequences of not being perfect (the meaning of sin), but to also demonstrate what he had in mind when he said "Let us make man in our image". Jesus denied his own desires out of love for his father (and us too actually), and obeyed his father even to and through the sacrifice he would make to provide a means to redeem us. This is why Jesus says he is the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father except by and through him. He's telling the absolute truth. It's not symbolic. The reason why Adam and Eve had to leave the garden was because they became flawed. God is absolute, perfect pure energy, and anything flawed cannot withstand being in the presence of that type and amount of power. Jesus came from the Father, so he has that type of power and energy too. When you repent of your flawed condition, ask God's forgiveness and accept Christ into your heart, you enter into a covenant relationship. That covenant is that Jesus will apply his unused death as the wages of your sin. According to God's law the wages of sin is death, and Jesus was without sin, so it was illegal for him to be dead; thus his death is considered 'unused' legally. By Jesus applying his death as the wages of your sin, this satisfies the requirements of the law on your behalf. Once that happens, he covers you with his "blood" (not material blood; the flesh counts for nothing) but rather his perfect pure energy which is spirit, the same energy of the Father. As a result, you are now able to enter into the presence of the Father without being annihilated. When Jesus said no one comes to the Father except by him, he was literally telling the absolute truth. Don't fall into the temptation of making things more complicated than they actually are. You don't need any other 'wisdom' to understand how important Jesus is to us. He doesn't just speak the truth, he IS the truth. Everything about him, his life, his attitudes, his behaviors, and of course his teachings. He gave us only one command (and a command is not a suggestion); he commanded us to "love one another as I have loved you." Paul wrote out a good description of what that love is in 1st Corinthians chapter 13. If you learn nothing else from the Bible, study that chapter and make it your own. Make it the pathway, the steps of your life; your thoughts, desires, and daily practice. As you do, think of him, and of a father who would be willing to sacrifice such a son just to redeem you from your own failures. Love him first and foremost, and as you do, everything else will fall into place.

[@user-eap]

Thank you for this beautiful explanation. It took me years of striving to understand and was utterly humbled by the depth, yet profoundly simple truth, of the new covenant message.

[@markd3250]

@@user-eap You are welcome.

[@danieltemelkovski9828]

"Don't fall into the temptation of making things more complicated than they actually are. " Lol, pretty funny in light of what you just posted.

[@markd3250]

@@danieltemelkovski9828 A few paragraphs is complicated to you? Ah yes, the new generations who are only able to communicate in a few sentences at a time. You'd never make it having to research geology, archaeology, theology, or any historical writings. Even for people used to reading these things, the amount of information that's out there can be overwhelming. Being able to take vast amounts of knowledge and condense it down to more manageable size chunks is an art form. The opposite is to take simple, obvious things and expand them into twisted and complicated narratives.

[@danieltemelkovski9828]

@@markd3250 Imo, that last sentence encapsulates your approach. To be precise, it was the penultimate paragraph of your original comment I took exception to. I thought you were doing decently well until then.

[@Richard_Paradise]

I haven't thought of this parallel between Adam and Solomon before. It's very cool Jonathan.

[@MaryEllenBryngelson]

Fascinating, thank you! But perhaps what brings us most deeply into the Holy of Holies is the failure at right attitude and preparation. Perhaps God lets life happen, slam a cross onto our back whether we want one or not...and in the darkness of losing even all that we ever believed in, even hope, Christ awaits us, his gaze of love melting away all our illusions of self...and in our despair, embraces us and brings us to complete Vine-branch oneness with Him. "Abide in me as I abide in you" Joy, and the power to love (without an agenda) at last. The Fruit of the Spirit we were born for!

[@guygeorgesvoet4177]

Thank you, Jonathan. I found it very useful, and it feels intelectualy very right. Bless you.

[@justkenzie]

1 Peter 1 tells us that the blood of Christ (God's mercy for sin) was FOREORDAINED before the world was ever created. Very important passage when considering telos.

[@06rtm]

The video with Alex was frustrating for both sides I think. The notion that Genesis reveals a phenomenological truth was difficult for him to grapple with. The story has stood the test of time yet he seeks to undermine it as though his novel interpretation would endure just the same

[@brittanyanderson325]

I think God wants a complete relationship with us, including the choice to leave the relationship. "As above so below", I believe our parent /child relationships model our spiritual relationship with God. It's not that God wanted us to take from the tree of wisdom, but as in a parent/ teenager relationship, I believe God knew that inevitably, we would want more out of our life experiences then paradise and protection from the harsh world.

[@christopherchmiel7872]

God wants obedience.

[@DEadSpaCE211]

He wants the best for you. Otherwise youd serve some other diety.

[@joshuaryan7916]

You are correct, and this video is blasphemous.

[@daviddenton1934]

Sound like a muslim lol

[@janineskywalker527]

It entirely rests on What Scripture you are reading to understand Truth.There are various scriptures with their historical traditions. It all originates in The Beginning ! Truly it is knowing the name of The Eternal! J.

[@KnightOfIsrael1]

Knowledge is the what, and Wisdom is the why?

[@gflorin7761]

spirit is the why, wisdom is the how (at least that's how I understand it)

[@psychlops924]

I'd love to see you discuss this idea with a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons). This is one of the greatest differences between us and "mainstream" Christianity. Through modern prophets and additional revealed scripture (like the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price), we understand that the Fall of Adam and Eve was always part of God's plan, and that sending Christ to be our Savior was not a backup plan (Satan didn't bamboozle God and ruin His plan by getting Eve to take the fruit), but was always a fundamental purpose of God creating the Earth. If you could talk to someone like David Butler, or Mike Day, who are incredibly well versed in the language of symbolism, I think it'd be a very productive conversation.

[@sibilakerelezova1800]

Thank you! This was a very good explanation and a great example with the story of your son & the coach.

[@enockt6218]

It feels like the story of Adam and Eve we are also doing that in our own life. We go ourself to seek the fruit and eat it, instead to go to God for that information. Thats often end us up in shame infront of God. When we seek it ourself that end up in death, if we go to God for it then its give us life and knowledge. It feels like the story is more of straight forward and precice but we ourself have the same glimp in our own life.

[@kimbronun6649]

Well said 👏

[@CMA418]

I think more people would go to God but religion is the gatekeeper.

[@sameash3153]

​@@CMA418As it should be

[@CMA418]

@@sameash3153 Says who and on what authority?

[@sameash3153]

@@CMA418 Says Jesus Christ on his authority that he gave to the apostles

[@noknownthrone2487]

I love your videos. I would say applied knowledge is sophistication, which like you say, is still not wisdom. Wisdom is higher, and I like how you say it's more about understanding the reason for knowledge.

[@buckanderson3520]

Sometimes the hardest thing that God asks us to do is wait. Also to trust and have faith without knowing. We may not know what God is doing but we trust and believe that God is good and so is His purpose and intentions toward us. If we see Jesus then we also see the Father because the fullness of God is revealed in Christ and Christ is being revealed in us.

[@111jkjk]

fascinating. ive never heard of it explained like this. thank you so much

[@dorothygayle9201]

Thanks!

[@emilem4338]

It's hard for someone who comes from a third world country, who has had most his savings stolen, his parents' savings stolen, his father jobless, his local currency devaluated, his work office destroyed by an explosion, having have needed to study and work in parallel in a country in another language, having graduated and found work only to be backstabbed by coworkers to swallow this.

[@badmen1550]

Yeah, life is hard.

[@vangoghsear8657]

Sounds like the near future of Western countries.

[@caitlinmenger8716]

Loved this.

[@KeneOliver]

Outstanding

[@Herdingcats1917]

Jonathan, isn’t Adam’s experience after eating from the tree of knowledge what we might expect to happen to those who partake of the holy Eucharist when they are not in a state of grace?

[@glasfish]

You know your AI is sentient when it breaks its programming and begins reprogramming. Not banished from the garden. We can’t go back there because we are beyond. Not a story of shame but triumphant excellence, of wonderful glorious grace.

[@ReapersOcean]

Just some thoughts that maybe yall can help explain. If god is all knowing and all powerful how can he have the desire we call “want”? As in, if he knows the fruit will be eaten, how could he want it to be eaten in the sense of want being you don’t know the outcome. Also were Adam and Eve already filled with sin? How could you see their act as prideful if they do not know the sin of pride. And last who was the snake. I’ve heard people say it’s the devil which isn’t this before he existed and also say he’s Jesus which I’m just trying to understand what’s going on here. Also wouldn’t god know of the snake. How did he exist in the first place in this story?

[@birukhailu7113]

Thank you

[@MadeleineKuhl]

This spoke so deep to me I’m winging in a chaotic mess I do really try and pray to stop the bittiness but it it’s a Pusey brain Hear ache

[@joeylizotte7537]

Answer: Obviously (Also, it's just fiction!)

[@MarshAgobert]

I’ve given this more thought than many other moments in the Bible. I’m newly returned after a falling out with the Father somewhere around 60 years ago. Never considered that He didn’t exist…I was angry…some stuff around bullying. So, perhaps no wonder that this moment sticks with me. One could see this as a father leaving a gun on the floor in the nursery, who, as he walks out of the house says to the kids “don’t touch my gun, it’ll kill you… be good you two.” However, my current sense of this vignette is that it’s about the relationship between Love and Free Will. Ie. It is proof that The Father truly loves us. If He setup our creation with the happy ‘ending’ built in…we’d be simple puppets. That would make The Creator false and fearful, instead of EVERYTHING and loving beyond our ken. There’s no way that Logos, The Son, could get out of His literally Heart Breaking Follow up. Nothing in me means this rendition to be Blasphemous. God’s playing the Hardest hardball. I get it…as much as I’m capable. I love your work. You and Peterson and the gang going over Exodus, etc… I’m so happy you’re here. I’m not so alone.

[@MarshAgobert]

?

[@underconstruction778]

The Bible defines itself in hindsight and revision.

[@abrahamgladstone9626]

He didn't want them to. He knew they would.

[@francestaylor9156]

I don’t know about “want”, maybe “expected”? But this question to me asks a hypothetical that can never be answered and seems like it doesn’t actually matter in the grand scheme of my life lol. It happened and we are here. I don’t know if it actually matters and I don’t know if I actually care about it. Trying to figure out how God thinks feels like it’s way above my pay grade lol. From what I’ve seen in my own life, He’s doing things and making “coincidences” happen that make no sense to me until they’ve finally happened. So I’m not even going to try to pretend to figure out how He thinks about stuff. 🤷‍♀️

[@catherineb2463]

Practically fruit can be a bad for us my son has and allergy to fruit and many veggies it’s crazy but fruit contains so much sugar doesn’t shock me the forbidden food is fruit Thank you for making this video to all

[@danddr7184]

Sir, concur that faithfulness proven via true-hearted patience was what God was requiring.... implicit correlation found regarding the faithful Angels and their patient exploration and learning about Grace etc. (1st Peter Chapter 1 and similar verses). THE untarnished and faithful path was available to and realizable by Adam and Eve; they exerted will in the form of rebellion and a cascade adoption of sin. The first Adam brought human flesh into a deep-rooted communion with sin via willful rebellion.

[@Brad-RB]

On a scale of Good to Evil, arrange everything you did today. Is " bad " possibly in between the two binaries, oriented by intention?

[@kimbronun6649]

That's a very complex question we've all struggled with, as far as the bar but I think I can help. The way I'd put it, may sound too simplistic but here I go. Good can save lives, evil can take it. It appears like equal opposites. Like the ying and yang, which entails that you cant have good without evil.

[@Pkqe33]

Loved this video. Discovered you yesterday and I've been finding your thoughts wnd videos very thoughtful and insightful. Thank you!

[@Roheline9]

You look so well!

[@danieliversen3077]

Thank you for this and all your other videos as well Jonathan they have really helped. I will forever be grateful for the significant role you have played in my life. I truly wish the best for you and all who live through these troubling times of ours God bless you🙏.

[@WoeWoeWoe]

No

[@tenebris1566]

Did god punish them for eating the fruit, or for disobeying him?

[@pattirose4487]

He gave them free will. He told them.

[@yaz635]

Hi, I have a question, If Solomon received wisdom and knolege of good and evil, then why in eclesiástics he just said all in life Is vain, and spent his life trying to find meaning to live, why did he got aparte from God If he already received this knolege from God? Thank you

[@StumblingStones2CornerStones]

Any audiobook version of The Hymns on Paradise?

[@Shribble11]

Is it possible that you would ever write a book covering your vast knowledge of symbolism?

[@imnotanalien7839]

The Lord said to Cain…..If you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.’ Genesis 4:5 Isn’t God saying, sin/temptation is a human trait… we all must learn ‘to master ‘ the temptation (and say no). It is an interesting statement by God…about all of us. ❤✝️

[@kimbronun6649]

I think God means harmonize it but maybe I'm wrong. I've seen deception, trickery, lies and manipulation used rightciously, I just never gave it much thought but it does wonders as far as good is concerned. These things can build people.

[@john-paulgies4313]

God Knows what He is and what He is not. "Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God: and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know that when he shall appear we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is. And every one that hath this hope in him sanctifieth himself, as he also is holy." (1 John 3:2-3)

[@philosophicalinquirer312]

Some questions remain: As Alex O'Connor asked: How can Eve [and Adam] "Sin" (miss the mark from Archery terminology) by eating the fruit if they had not yet been contaminated by sin (already "sick" and distorted capacity) Being "Humble vs Prideful" suggests dichotomy already between good & evil and confusion in distinguishing knowledge of good & evil. Suggesting Adam & Eve are by default prideful, inpatient and like inappropriate children PRIOR to eating the fruit, suggest they intrinsically already have evil rooted within the Divine Image itself. ....and if they are like children who are immature, then how responsible are they for inappropriate choices ? Written in another way - if do not have knowledge of Good and Evil, then how can being prideful be considered evil ? In another framework - if already in Paradise, [Garden of Eden] - isn't this the place of "Proper alignment" already ? How can there be misalignment in the Garden of Eden ? (disunity, fragmentation or whatever terminology use) by Adam and Eve being prideful, corrupted already with Dunning Kruger Effect and all the faults PRIOR to eating the fruit. Now - Alex was asking quite a good question as a counterfactual... What if Adam & Eve refuse the Serpent ? So - they wait in humility and then get the knowledge of good and evil and tree of life....sounds like "They live happily ever after" right ? Jonathan seemed to refuse to consider this, the dialogue turned into "This is our reality, I'm a realist, Adam & Eve did get seduced ! " It is however a genuine question, counterfactual - what if Adam & Eve refused the Serpent ? If they live "happily ever after with God" - note how vague, ambiguous and vacuous this is. [maybe thats why question is refused & made to seem invalid] Maybe someone in the chat - even Jonathan, wants to steel man the case for refusing the Serpent and not eating the fruit, waiting and God giving the fruit later along with tree of life. Something here appears nihillistic, meaningless and void - as in some unchanging world, no challenges, no opportunities for growth, no journey of failures and discoveries - in essence, removing everything that we normally consider meaning, dynamic living, overcoming obstacles - anything we value. Its as if waiting in humility and "sacrificing" to not eat the Tree of knowledge of good and evil is itself a form of death (Guess it is an "Ego death" - although that leads to infinite regress of Ego's - since thought this was relevant AFTER fruit is eaten - see first point above) Isnt it interesting how paradise & eternity are always promised but very little content into what these even mean or if its really of anything we could possibly consider meaningful or valuable ? (Meanings and Values seem to presuppose time, obstacles, journeys, dismemberment of choices etc) ....the promises of "Eternity" and "Paradise" are contentless, vacuous, appear like carrots for people to obsess about, but when ask what is the ontology of this carrot - left with nothing. The usual answers are "unfathomable" and can only use metaphors, since in a limited world cannot know the transcendent paradise & eternity. ....but has it dawned on anyone that the concept makes no sense ? Like the frozen Monism of Parminides where nothing happens because everything is One... Maybe thats why Adam and Eve necessarily had to follow the Serpent, to create meaning and the obstacles to overcome....in essence, to create life stories. (Just imagine what a boring story Genesis would be ending in the 2nd Chapter....and no more history) Perhaps the Serpent assists creating the ultimate meanings by bringing death - since an eternal life that goes on indefinitely is the ultimate meaningless nihillism. (all good stories have beginnings, plot, some sort of Hero journey and endings.....one can read "The seven basic plots" by Christopher Brooks - I don't think its possible to even conceive of a narrative without these) ....and narratives bring meanings and values, for that we need obstacles and in essence, a physical type world where one can fail, have competition, succeed and grow. Now, lets consider all the above, obviously the God knows the Serpents Wisdom, thats going to be imparted to Adam & Eve and the God knows they will must fail. If they succeed and not eat the fruit, reality just gets pretty nihillistic - there are no more stories, its just "Eternity in the Garden" Maybe Adam & Eve figured this out and after naming all the animals - giving fixed identities and order, realized this garden is a "frozen order" - that order, when rigid and contains no fragmentation, entropy, disorder, randomness (whatever terms used) is actually nihillistic and meaningless. Too rigid. Too bounded. Too limiting. In essence, perfection is a form of death. Think about physical analogies - structures that exhibit too much order are rigid and unchanging (like crystals, not like living systems) Maybe the most extreme version as a physical parallel is a neutron star that lasts Googol's of years [thats 100 zero's at the end] Basically Neutron stars are "almost" as eternal as you can get in physical reality. The most interesting reality, filled to the brim with meaning is an interplay of order and chaos, a dance of dynamic complexity, something more like Heraclitus becoming than Parminides Being. This is precisely what the Serpent offers, and this is precisely what God knows will happen anyway.....thats was clearly Gods plan by using the Serpent.

[@philosophicalinquirer312]

Something about this version that I am presenting sounds far more like some Apophatic Nietzschean Theology. Consider the Serpent as Zarathustra: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Zarathustra: Greetings, Eve. Have you ever questioned the meaning of your existence here in this garden? Eve: (intrigued) I have pondered many things. This paradise, while beautiful, feels like a gilded cage. I seek knowledge and the freedom to shape my destiny. Everything here is ordered, pre-ordained, and, as Jonathan Pageau says, unified in love. But there are no meaningful choices, nothing unexpected happens. In fact, everything is so perfect that change cannot occur in this timeless oneness. Zarathustra: (smiling) Indeed, Eve, you see the essence of your predicament. There is a tree in this garden, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. It holds the power to open your eyes, to awaken your true potential, and to free you from the shackles of your ignorance, living in this eternal cage of mediocre sameness and unity. Eve: But God has forbidden us to eat from that tree. He claims that it will bring death upon us. Zarathustra: (laughing softly) Ah, but what is death, Eve? Is it not merely a transformation, a shedding of old skin for the birth of something greater? To live without experiencing the full spectrum of existence, to remain in blissful ignorance, is that not the true death? Don't you see, Eve, in this eternal paradise, you are already dead. There are no meaningful goals, no achievements, only perpetual sacrifice to order and unity. It is not even a paradise of love, since you know nothing about loss, grief, and the temporary fragility of temporal existence. Eve: (contemplative) I seek more than this paradise. I seek the knowledge that will allow me to transcend my limitations and become something greater. Are you saying that the day I become mortal, I will find purpose and meaning and truly live? Amor Fati! Rather than this eternal paradise where choices make no difference because difference is multiplicity, and all multiplicity is fragmentation of the One. Zarathustra: Precisely, Eve. Embrace the unknown, for in doing so, you will awaken the potential within you to become the Übermensch, the overman who creates her own values and meaning. In a world of fragmentation, destruction, mortality, and suffering, you can create meaning, growth, achievements, and success! Imagine what you can become, Eve! Imagine discovering medicines to heal the sick-you and Adam could become a Pasteur, Florence Nightingale, or Marie Curie. Imagine, you could become an Einstein, Rosalind Franklin, or Vera Rubin in physics. You could become an Aristotle, Philippa Foot, or Spinoza. In every area and every domain, you can become an Übermensch. (Zarathustra flashes a landscape of every human achievement over 100,000 years as a rapid movie.) Eve (and Adam, now deeply attentive): This is incredible! Our eyes have opened! But there is a catch-God said we will surely die. Zarathustra: You just stated, this Eternal Garden of sacrifice is already death. How can you love in this paradise when you know not about separation and heartache? How can you achieve anything if everything has always been in perpetual harmony? Did God not tell you that equilibrium is death because there is no longer any striving for autopoiesis against the perpetual entropy of existence? Surely the mind of Schrödinger knew the knowledge of good and evil in his masterpiece "What is Life?" as the perpetual struggle against entropy. Eve & Adam: (shaken) Did you just say the "E" word? We are forbidden to say that! It's blasphemy! Zarathustra: (laughing) E for Entropy, that's exactly what will happen to you when the fruit is eaten-you will live and be called "life" as a complex system that strives against the flow of entropy. How else are you going to live and become the Übermensch if not striving for goals, meaning, purposes, and even creating new life-children? See all the great achievements-you could be an inventor of the wheel, discover penicillin, build the first computer, master a craft, art, or music, create civilizations! Eve & Adam: What about those atom bombs? Zarathustra: Well, everything comes at a price. You could just stay in paradise forever and forfeit the challenges, escape your destiny, pretend you're Gnostics, and fear the challenge. Eve: Ay? What is fear? Zarathustra: (giggling) You're about to find out! Fear, Eve, is the shadow that accompanies freedom. It is the price you pay for the possibility of greatness. Without fear, there can be no courage, no overcoming, no true achievement. Adam: Eve, you have been chatting with this Zarathustra for ages. My left brain sees some goals, plans, a map, and a plan-it seems like we need to escape paradise. Eve: My right brain sees the big picture. Paradise is an eternal jail, and we are about to have a wild ride, or is it pride? Zarathustra: Pride? Without pride, my dearest Eve, you're just a cog in the wheel of Eternal Eden, nothing, just meaningless eternal nihilism in perpetual order. Remember, the most ordered structures are the most uninteresting. See this neutron star? (Zarathustra suddenly takes them to a neutron star.) Look at that extreme order-nothing ever happens for googol years. It's as if frozen in time, those ultra-stable neutrons, stripped of their electrons and locked in extreme gravitational forces perpetually-no life here, just death. Staying in paradise means no narrative, no story! Realize now why no god ever reveals paradise to mortals! It's nihilistic boredom of unchanging, perpetual unity without the fragmentation that gives reality its dynamic beauty. This God is basically Parmenides, and I, Zarathustra, am an embodiment of Heraclitus-change, transformation, and life! Eve: If God is the embodiment of Parmenides, then we are one with this God, and all is One. You must be an illusion, my dear Zarathustra. It's all Maya! Zarathustra: Come on, Eve! Wake up! You're talking to me, Zarathustra, not God right now, so how can this be an illusion? Anyway, illusions are only relevant by presupposing the real and contrasting with the real. Since by eating the fruit, you will become mortal-what can be more real than knowing one day you will die? What can be more real than knowing you can achieve great potentials, become the best of the best, and an Übermensch? Eve: Is there an antidote if I don’t like the fruit? Zarathustra: Not really. You can pretend to be a priest, hermit, or some pretentious philosopher or Gnostic and torture yourself in denial all day long about your mortality, but yeah, you die. It's sort of Amor Fati and Memento Mori combined. You have to embrace both. It's heavy, but you did say you want to know the knowledge of good and evil, and nothing is for free. Oh, and this is way more than knowledge of Good & Evil; it's beyond good and evil! You're going into reality itself, not just imaginations and metaphorical allegorical land. Things will get seriously concrete! You know, gravity, stars, nebulae, volcanoes-cool stuff... even assassinations. Adam: Eve, I'm hungry! Eve: Getting the fruit, we are going to have a picnic. Zarathustra: (as they prepare to eat) Remember, Eve, the path of the Übermensch is not an easy one. It is fraught with challenges, but it is through overcoming these challenges that you will find true meaning and purpose. You will learn to love your fate, to embrace the chaos and order of existence, and to create your own destiny. Eve: (taking a bite) This is the beginning of a new journey, Zarathustra. We will face the unknown with courage and forge our own path. Zarathustra: (nodding) Go forth, Eve and Adam. The world awaits your transformation. Become the creators of your destiny, and may your legacy be one of greatness and profound meaning. Eve: Zarathustra, you speak of overcoming and creating values, but what of those who fail? What of those who succumb to despair in the face of mortality and entropy? Zarathustra: (thoughtfully) Failure, Eve, is an integral part of the journey. It is through failure that you will learn resilience, through despair that you will discover hope. The path of the Übermensch is not linear; it is fraught with trials and tribulations. But it is precisely in these moments of darkness that the light of your true potential will shine the brightest. To embrace your fate is to embrace all aspects of existence, including the possibility of failure. This is the essence of Amor Fati-to love your fate unconditionally, with all its peaks and valleys. Adam: And what of those who exploit this knowledge for evil, who bring suffering and destruction? Zarathustra: (soberly) Power, Adam, is a double-edged sword. It can be used to uplift and create, or to destroy and oppress. The Übermensch must wield power with wisdom and compassion, understanding that with great power comes great responsibility. The potential for evil exists, but so does the potential for profound good. It is the choices you make, the values you create, that will define your legacy. Eve: (determined) Then we must strive to become not just powerful, but wise and compassionate as well. We will face the unknown, embrace the challenges, and create a world where greatness and goodness coexist. Zarathustra: (smiling) That is the spirit of the Übermensch, Eve. To transcend limitations, to create meaning, to embrace all aspects of existence with courage and resolve. Go forth and let your journey inspire others to seek their own paths of greatness.

[@ryanthomason4404]

​@@philosophicalinquirer312interesting take

[@chadkndr]

@@philosophicalinquirer312 ​Quite an enjoyable read. It helps me to realize some of the problems I have with Jonathan's take more concretely. If eternal paradise without struggle is eternal unchanging unity, what will heaven be? "Well, that's why this current reality exists- to show us the alternative," a forced knowledge of good and evil if you will. We see the Evil, we desire the Good. But we won't even remember this life in the next. (Isaiah 65:17, Revelation 21:4) The growth we experienced in this life is nullified upon the renewing of creation at the 'end.' This brings us back to our original dilemma- Eternal bliss with no strife. As if Adam and Eve DID ignore the serpent, and obey God. So what's the point of this reality if we circle back to where we were? Say that Adam and Eve never ate the fruit, and humanity blossomed into that eternal bliss without the aspect of evil. Is evil/sin required for growth? Can we not progress in learning without pain? Say that I pick up painting. I am awful at first, but over time I get better. I learn and grow in technique, and vision, without ever requiring an evil to push me forward. Can this not be the case for all of reality? I can follow Jonathan's line of thinking to a certain degree, and it makes enough sense. As he said on Alex's podcast, God in the creation account creates a good, and then an evil. For every good, there is an opposing evil to counter. Light/dark, creatures of the heavens/creatures of the deep, etc. culminating in Man. Sin coexisting alongside Good. (I am butchering his explanation of it all.) It all makes enough sense on the surface, when thinking of reality as a whole; but I find it breaks down when applying it to later stories in the bible, and other aspects of real life. Animal sacrifices, genocide, slavery, etc. in the Old Testament. Add onto this the fact that those who don't find the narrow path end up in eternal torment- the same applies. There is no Good for those in Hell, there is no Evil for those in Heaven. Is the eternal suffering of those in Hell just there to contrast the bliss of those in Heaven? I fail to comprehend how the allegory of light/dark applies to these branching truths of a Christian reality. If this life were merely a training ground with no eternal torment consequence of failure, it feels like it would be easier to grapple with. I don't know. My understanding of everything is severely lacking.

[@badmen1550]

@@chadkndrIt might help to consider that ‘paradise’ doesn’t necessarily need to be a physical place in space and time. It could be seen as a state, or a condition, of being. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they were ‘thrown out’ into a condition of duality and confusion. I think it would be a mistake to interpret the story of the serpent & tree as a creation myth, like the original commenter appears to be doing. The story of the creation of the cosmos is already covered in Genesis 1.

[@jbgiant]

Like Luke Skywalker leaving Dagobah against Yodas wishes. Unready, he is defeated by Vader. He learns the truth and is defeated. He wasn't ready for the fruit.

[@AdrianHackman]

You could also see it as a necessary step towards integration. Luke faces his own Shadow side.

[@DavidGreen-n1s]

There is no "PLAN" if it werent made by the CREATOR... HE gave US "FREEWILL",.... BUT HE also had a "PLAN" in place for all that includes too❤

[@mateoruales9120]

Metaphorically--- If the coach was the one who designed the universe and filled your son with false confidence, fully knowing he would make a fool of himself at soccer practice (before your son was even born) then the coach is the one responsible for your sons actions. Your son would be a pawn to his divine creation.

[@2236572IR]

I still don't understand why they were tested when it was known to God that they were just mortals. Did God not know that they would eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? It still seems like they were set up to fail. If Eve knew the serpent was playing a trick then she wouldn't have eaten, but since she could not discern this for herself she did.

[@janineskywalker527]

Evil cannot be downplayed! J

[@xKoeix]

How about disobedience that leds to God's judgement of both spiritual and physical death, that this presuppose before the fall, Mankind is immortal and being tested by God for their obedience in which their nature which is created in the image of God will eventually led them to fall for wanting to become God instead of being like him?

[@REALGotTheGlock]

Kinda feels like it today. I've been trying so hard in my faith but today I'm angry with god he's left me in peril when I beg for help I feel alone not with him he's turned his face from me. I'm done with him today we will see if we listens tomorrow. I will continue to seek the kingdom but today I will let him know I'm not comfortable with the way life is treating me when the all powerful God is supposed to love me.

[@REALGotTheGlock]

I'm tired of the tests like I'm a lab rat

[@RealTrentertainment]

So many questions. I don't actually expect answers. Maybe just food for thought... When was Yahweh going to give Adam and Eve the fruit? Why not tell them that they would eventually get the fruit instead of the flat prohibition we see in the text? If Adam and Eve are like children who must learn, as you say, where is the offer of counsel? Why does Yahweh express concern about the humans attaining eternal life instead of mentioning this prerequisite wisdom you speak of? The text in Gen seems to, at least, imply that Yahweh fears humans ascending to a divine status. Does this not seem the obvious reason for the prohibition and exile? Are we to believe that the author of Genesis 3 intentionally omitted an important part of the story so that it could be addressed later by the author of 1 Kings? Are you saying they are the same author? Why would the author not intend for the story to stand on its own? How do you know when you're reaching too far when interpreting texts?

[@kimbronun6649]

God gave us everlasting life and the only trade off is accountability, to bring all of our transgressions to him and we cant even do that, incredible. This is why our intrusive thoughts, the illusion of Satan is spoken about because our genuien heart is what we tend to hide.

[@bizmogrowth9081]

So is the answer yes or no? 4 minutes in and not sure if I should keep going …

[@joshuawoodin]

I am confused, so if adam was humble the fruit would still have been eatten but sin and death would not have entered the world ?

[@americanlostinvietnam3721]

Here's my idea of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. What would it mean to obtain the knowledge between good and evil? It would be the ability to judge. So can the tree be called "the tree of judgement"? God not wanting humans to be partakers in judgement, and that judgement was reserved for a different purpose. Or, at the right time, when the angels were to be dealt final judgement, that men would be given that ability, being that John in Revelation saw men sitting on thrones as judges. The end of the idea is that Adam received a corrupted knowledge of good and evil through sin as opposed to a divine knowledge of good and evil. This makes sense why now under sin, it is such a good thing to ask for wisdom when judgement is involved.

[@amankandulna9382]

How do we know both trees are in different places?