Did Irvine and Mallory climb Everest? Archie Price Siddiqui investigates

[@stevebednar1436]

Excellent job. Leo should watch all of Michael Tracy's videos. Mallory NEVER planned to climb the ridge route past high camp. There is plenty of supporting evidence. Mallory wrote, essentially that he already knew, well ahead of time, taking on any significant obstacle at that altitude would prove futile. He knew the second step was too much. They climbed one of the couloir routes, completely without doubt. Odell saw them at the 3rd step, which is the only step they could have been seen on considering the route. They were seen at 12:50pm at somewhere around 28,500 ft with 500 ft to go. They would have pushed on and summited.

[@josm1481]

Yes, Mallory's notes and the Norton reccy heavily suggest that didn't go the ridge route. Everything before was preparation for the final summit. Why would he try an untried route when Norton had just set an altitude record going a different way days before, and there's no notes saying Norton came back to say the route he took was a dead end. But Odell's account is the clincher. He was clear, they were closer to the pyramid, were going strong and could make it to the top. Importantly, Odell doesn't mention about step between M&I and the pyramid. It's a prominent feature to leave out. Suggesting they were at the last, 3rd step. As Michael Tracy points out, people have frequently misnumbered the steps and the 24 team changed numbers themselves, saying M&I were at the 2nd and 1st steps.

[@Steve_Schiffenhaus]

Yup two popular fallacies that people lead with 1) Couldn’t have made the second step - which is probably true but the assumption the attempted the second step is fundamentally flawed 2) Clothing was inadequate- addressed here

[@kenkaplan3654]

I do have one question. Irvine's (supposed) ice exe was found near the first step. If they did not take the ridge route up, why were they on the ridge coming down? I'd like to se Tracy address this.

[@dkeener13]

@@kenkaplan3654 Tracy addresses this several times (his video Two and a Half Ice axes is a good example), but a couple things to keep in mind: 1) it wasn't found on the 1st step, but on the face about 60' below; and 2) the ice axe was found by the English expedition in 1933, none of whom attempted to traverse the ridge between the 1st and 2nd steps. They all traversed below the ridge and below the 2nd step, just like Norton did in 1924, and those who made it the farthest ended up in the couloir, just like Norton did. So the location of the axe doesn't tell us much of anything about "ridge vs couloir" because the spot is basically on both routes.

[@kenkaplan3654]

@@dkeener13 Thanks. Tracy makes a compelling case they summited bypassing the second step all together via a zig zag route.

[@HarryFlashmanVC]

So Archie, excellent video, young man. Congratulations. Now I'm in my mid 50s and in the 1980s I climbed in Scotland and Norway extensively. This was before the days of Goretex and whilst down jackets and trousers were avaliable, they were very expensive and not very hard wearing. The clothes we wore in the 80s had more in common with Mallory's era kit than modern kit today. Many thin layers, wool, especially Shetland, Harris Tweed, or Fair Isle, cotton, brushed cotton and moleskin. Typical kit was: Brushed cotton vest, moleskin shirt, thin woolen tank top, light woolen jumper, guernesy or fair isle sweater, sometimes a tweed gilet. Legs: knee cut off long johns Tweed climbing breeches, knee length Light cotton socks Heavy woolen socks or kilt hose (knee high) Elastic garters to hold socks up Leather climbing boots Heavy duty waxed canvas snow gaiters, these could be removed from the boots. Waterproofs: a cagoule and waterproof trousers sometimes a poncho. Hat: tweed flat cap, folding sun cap and woollen beanie hat. We wore this sort of kit right up until the early 00s, its comfortable, keeps you warm even when wet, durable and most importantly it is very easy to take layers off and add them on which is very important in winter in the mountains.

[@jimclip2012]

Found your video via Michael Tracey. Nice job, young man…keep up the good work!

[@saspo68]

Well done young man, excellent documentary

[@kyleburton3992]

He's good

[@swimmad456]

Absolutely splendid. You should feel very proud young Sir.

[@paulhoulden]

Well done kid, very well presented, you're going places!!!

[@VincentComet-l8e]

A very interesting video - with a very knowledgeable young commentator too! Leo Houlding’s analysis is interesting but may possibly be based on a misconception. This being that in 1924 Mallory & Irvine took what is now the modern route along the NE ridge and therefore had to climb the 1st, 2nd and 3rd steps en route to the summit. However, through the recent information provided on Michael Tracy’s KZbin site it seems fairly clear that following his experience on the 1922 expedition, Mallory was well aware of the likely difficulty of climbing those three steps and had a different, preferred route instead. A few days prior to the summit attempt, Norton and Somervell pioneered that preferred route, which ran some distance below the NE ridge and lead to what is now known as the Norton Couloir. Without oxygen they established an altitude record of 28,126 feet, which was some 900 feet below the level of the summit. Basically, that route ascended some hundreds of feet from Camp VI then took a more or less horizontal track along the yellow band. This avoided the 1st and 2nd steps and ended in a gully (the Norton Couloir) which led steeply up to the 3rd step and the summit. Here is Odell’s original account of his sighting of Mallory & Irvine in the Times: (‘…at 12.50am…there was a sudden clearing of the atmosphere, and the entire summit ridge and final peak of Everest were unveiled… my eyes became fixed on one tiny black spot, silhouetted…beneath a rock crest in the ridge…the black spot moved. Another black spot became apparent, and moved up the snow to join the other…the first then approached the crest rock step, and shortly emerged at the top. The second did likewise…then the whole fascinating vision vanished, enveloped in cloud once more…the place on the ridge mentioned is a prominent rock step, at a very short distance from the base of the final pyramid…from the position in which they were last seen, they should have reached the summit at 4 p.m. at latest.’) At that extreme altitude 200 feet per hour is a good climb rate. That about three hours climbing would get them to the summit shows how close they were and his description tallies with their intention to ascend the Norton Couloir and then get up onto the 3rd step, which has been described as ‘a pleasant scramble’ by comparison to the previous two steps. Various members of the expedition (Odell & Beetham) and associates (Haddick) went on public lecture tours in 1924 and 1925, all expressing the opinion that Mallory & Irvine had reached the summit but perished on the way down. However, on publication of the official account of the expedition (‘The Fight for Everest’) in late 1925, Odell’s account had been watered down and made more vague. With the many books and differing theories that have abounded over the decades since, the precise original details have been lost, and are now overlaid with more recent material. This is demonstrated in so eminent a climber as Leo Houlding believing that Mallory & Irvine traversed the NE ridge and attempted to climb the 1st, 2nd and 3rd steps en route to the summit.

[@josm1481]

Michael Tracy's videos and forensic analysis is compelling, as is his convictions. I'd like to see a more robust debate. Part of the problem is, mountaineers are people of conviction etc so most have strong opinions. That combined with disparate and often impartial information is a recipe for what we see now. Experienced climbers and authorities not shy to perpetuate lots of theories. Certainly Michael's thoroughness does give his arguments some weight but I'd love to see more people together to get the sum total of info known. Many are giving opinions based on hindsight. What is important to know is what they knew before the attempt, as anything after just confuses the story. Again, Michael does a good job with that and his notes from the members 24 expedition are compelling to his view. It does appear Mallory spent some time observing and preparing, and believed he had a sure fire route. He also said he was certain he'd make it etc. But Odell's account is the clincher. He was clear. M&I only had the pyramid to go, were going strong and had time left. There's no mention of 'just one more step to go, then the pyramid' suggesting it was the 3rd not 2nd step. As Michael points out, the steps are often misnumbered due to vantage point. Even the 24 team changed from 2nd, to 1st etc in their accounts. Mallory's body (and the unconfirmed Chinese siting of Irvine) are all below the 8500 that Odell claimed he saw them at. Suggesting they made it and died on the way down, as about 90% do. Great documentary by the young man though.

[@MackerelCat]

Good job presenting kid!

[@rajanacharya1135]

Excellent job, young man. Love from the land of Everest. Keep going.

[@ware2next]

Fantastic work young man. Great viewing and an amazing mystery to this day!

[@dianebays5484]

The main question is , did they summit? I love to think that they did. Great video, young man!

[@Danstaafl]

Mallory didn't do the ridge route, nobody did back then. The second step was too risky, even if you pulled it off you would be too worn out to climb after. Mallory even said as much. I think he made it, and if he had left a couple hours earlier he would have survived..

[@Danstaafl]

@@barringtonsmith9147 They were seen at 12:50pm at somewhere around 28,500 ft with 500 ft to go. They would have pushed on and summited. I think they had oxygen problems otw down and you know what happens when you're using oxy up there and you run out.. that's my take on it

[@josm1481]

The clincher is Odell's description. They had only a little way till the pyramid. No mention of one more step, which is a prominent feature. Suggesting they were at the top of the 3rd step. Odell simply got the step wrong. Many people believe from where he was Odell could only see the 3rd step well too.

[@josm1481]

And again, even if it was the 2nd step they were seen at the top of Odell said they were going strong. So, either they scaled it easily or they didn't go the ridge route.

[@roblacitinola866]

Agreed, I too think he made it, why not believe…

[@Longtack55]

Mallory was a face - not ridge climber.

[@Jean-PaulRESCH]

Very great work! This video show an amazing mystery not yet resolved today!

[@andygilbert1877]

Excellent presentation, while we may never know the truth this answered more questions than some similar documentaries I’ve seen.

[@rowdyyates4273]

I believe the truth is known but covered up!!

[@zzydny]

Very nice documentary. Well done!

[@chillpurr275]

Great documentary, thank you!!

[@paulmorgan4369]

Very well done, Archie.

[@alexk2652]

Superb work. Well done.

[@jimmyzbike]

This is amazing thank You for sharing

[@jacquinixon9587]

Great work Archie!! Very interesting

[@morgantam1]

Good job Archie!

[@Thingolfin]

Brilliant Archie, go on with your Reasearch ! Maybe you can add another piece to the puzzle. Remember that they found Mallory´s body in 1999, after 75 years, maybe there are more hints waiting for discovery! Excellent documentary!

[@ZAPHODWAT]

NIce video, well done. They came so, so close

[@oughtssought1198]

very well done, sir

[@user-uy6uc5ey5q]

its a minor point, but only the British members of the 1953 expedition trained in Wales prior leaving for Nepal. The New Zealanders, Hillary and George Lowe traveled to Nepal from New Zealand (by air and ship then overland respectively- Hillary taking the more expensive flight as he was working in the family Beekeeping business as as long as he could) and Tenzing and the Sherpas porters who climbed above Base Camp up the Khumbu Icefall (therefore vital members of the team) obviously never left Nepal.

[@82566]

One of the best documentary I've watched about these two legends , thank you 😊currently reading the book by Julie S. & discovered i share a birthday w Sandy

[@andygregor345]

Great job Archie

[@timpartridge9773]

I would love to see you make another documentary on the 1953 expedition. It would be great if you could hike the route to EBC on the Nepalise side.

[@tobyjefferson3731]

great video love it

[@TheFastchook]

I thoroughly enjoyed your video Archie. I've been to Nepal 3 times, so I felt I had returned . Thank you = )

[@michaelwhittaker5432]

Well done sir , I learned a lot thank you .

[@kenkaplan3654]

People keep assuming Mallory and Irvine climbed the ridge route via the steps when Mallory expressly wrote in a note such a route was impossible? Odell saw them moving rapidly vertically but from his vantage point the first step was not visible. Michael Tracy has gone into all of this in tremendous detail.

[@polarbearsrus6980]

Thanks for sharing.

[@godfreypatrick9792]

Excellent! well done!

[@chriswyles553]

Legend, great stuff!

[@Bella.216]

Sandy's great niece is wrong about them dying on the way up. Because they found Mallory oxygen bottle right next to the 1st step. The ice axe was below that first step. Mallory was also attached to Irvine because of the rope injuries to his ribs and waist. So Irvine was probably pulled over the mountain.

[@josm1481]

Yes, the rope suggests one or other went over the edge. The vast majority die on the way down, even today.

[@richardbradley8535]

Very interesting

[@rosegeaber7533]

Great job! Very interesting deduction about the goggles in Mallory's pocket!

[@Dybbouk]

Bravo Archie.

[@Mark-mm1ke]

I believe Mallory made it to the summit. Descending in the dark and in the clouds, he fell. I’ve seen nothing that says the two were roped together. Don’t know they weren’t. I would think if they were, the bodies would be some what near each other. So far that is not the case. Did Mallory make the summit alone? I think so. I think he got up there late. It was dark and he never found Irvine in the dark and clouds. Both parishes while trying to find there way down in the dark.

[@johndurrer7869]

Mallory was found near the edge of a big drop off. Considering Irvine clearly weight more I would expect him to fall a little further down that part of the mountain. Which would’ve sent his body off the edge and into the abyss.

[@johndurrer7869]

Died on their way up? Is that even possible considering what Odell saw?

[@jermainerace4156]

I just want some of that old-school kit.

[@JoleneDaviesITKWJ]

Well done

[@alonsoquijano9555]

Good job!

[@Exiles800]

I think they made it...The camera wasn't on Mallory's body...Probably because Irvine kept it after photographing Mallory at the top...The photo of his wife that Mallory planned to leave at the summit was also not on Mallory's body...If Mallory managed to climb the step then all he had to do was throw a rope to Irvine...It looks like a classic case of summit syndrome where they thought they had it easy and by the time they made it they realized they didn't have enough time to descend...It still happens today and people still die from it...Irvine was left behind after collapsing & Mallory fell while desperately trying to make it down while his brain lacked oxygen and darkness set in...

[@Bella.216]

Only problem with that scenario Is, Mallory carried a ruck sack around his neck, that was missing when they recovered Mallory. Most likely Sandy had a camera of his own as well, but I fully believe Mallory's camera was in his ruck sack.

[@Bella.216]

Also would note that that very well may have been where Ruth's picture was as well

[@Exiles800]

@@Bella.216 The timing of where they were on the mountain when Odell saw them dedicated towards the summit and going strong, as well as where they fell (probably because of darkness) bespeaks a successful summit...I believe Mallory made a comment before that last climb that he was going to make the summit even if he died in the process...Where Odell saw them is the exact spot where even present day climbers misjudge the final distance to the summit and think it is much closer than it is...

[@josm1481]

@@Bella.216 sadly, there's so many myths around this it's often hard to get the truth. Look up Michael Tracy's YT channel. He goes to source. He claims it's a myth that Somerville (?) gave him a camera. Further, it was most likely a letter (or letter plus photo) he was going to leave there. His daughter only ever mentioned a letter. All his letters were in a pocket close to his heart. His wife's letter wasn't there. The photo might be a rumour.

[@josm1481]

Something like 90% of those the die on Everest do so on descent: 1. The weather is routinely bad in the afternoon. Mallory knew this very well and it's why people leave early, even risking the dark. Even Mallory knew 4pm was the very latest they could make it. 2. You're tired, increasing disorientation, accidents etc. 3. Oxygen is running low.

[@jackharle1251]

They didnt have to take the ridge route, genious.

[@stevenedwards2162]

Remember this was his third attempt so he new what obstacles he would be facing and would have worked out how to tackle them , if he thought it was impossible to get to the top I'm sure he wouldn't have tried three times , he had a plan how to reach the top that's why I believe he did make it .

[@namelastname2449]

Brilliant

[@kyleburton3992]

I think he did. On the way down, the accident

[@Jackkinrade07]

personally I believe Irvine and Mallory made it to the top and are still alive to this day....

[@glencairnlairdof5832]

So yet another possible/ maybe/could have.

[@oldskoolstu]

He made it. kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5DZqWx5l6lqqM0

[@henrywilson3276]

give him a break he's just a wee lad

[@valaudae1809]

That’s a rather haunting photograph of Ruth Mallory.

[@KDSima]

Great video. I think they made it, and karma played a role in y we will never know. Mallory wanted it so badly, I think he made it but he will never get the credit for achieving it.

[@czarcastic1458]

Even Mallory claimed he doubt he would make it to the top and no one would for awhile until they figure out how by trying over and over.

[@josm1481]

Mallory's last letters say the exact opposite. He was absolutely confident he would make it.

[@czarcastic1458]

@@josm1481 He told his wife he didn't have the strength or the equipment to make it.

[@darthcheney7447]

Hey, pretty good kid.

[@mariumrajah]

Lovely video They both never made it to the summit

[@pendragonU]

The accent is so local and reading fast and jumpy that it gets hard to follow at key words, and I am saying this as someone that had lived in different English speaking countries, including the Appalachian hillbillies South in USA. He is a sharp bright boy and I commend his very young enthusiasm for scholarly research, but... And I know that the trend since 3 decades already is to deliver sentences in a frantic breathless pace like KZbinrs picked up off radio or MTV DJ's, of which this is much milder but still in jumpy spurts sentences. Any chance to have picked another choice narrator with a voice of more clearer diction or slower as most professional or amateur documentaries attempt to without hiring Liam Neeson to do the delivery?

[@aeromodeller1]

It was his school project.

[@Jackkinrade07]

how about you keep quiet old boy

[@henrywilson3276]

u must hate northeners

[@KBPandey]

Im also totally agree with You.... Mallary didn't successful to reached the summit

[@tonylawrence9157]

No, Mallory did not reach the top. Had he done so he would have left a mark. It would have meant a lot to him. I can almost believe that he would have died on the top just to prove he was there. Did not he write say that he would rec the summit if it was the last thing he would ever do, or something like that? But he did not, because he could not. No one talks about Mallory's poor ability to plan, and possibly to think either. You need more than a good sense for ballance on a cliff face, and, say what you want he did not have a good sense for either doing a difficult job or surviving. Taking inexperienced Irvine, oxygen cylinders and all, was bad judgement, which very likely cost him his life. There are so many "if"s for people to talk about. "If granny had balls she would be called grand-dad", was an old saying long ago when I was young. There is no evidence that Mallory achieved anything beyond getting himself and Irvine killed. His practical ineptitude killed Irvine. Irvine trusted the old man, and the old man led him to death. Bloke from Aus.