Did Mallory & Irvine Summit Everest 100 years ago? Author Dr. Robert Edwards new book investigates

[@ftapon]

On October 14, 2024: Dr. Edwards and I recorded a new show to reflect on Jimmy Chin's discovery of Sandy Irvine's boot/foot: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5m4hIR9m9WEl6M

[@dianebays5484]

I don't know why I'm so interested in this but I watch every video I can, and this was wonderful. Very informative, and inspiring. Thank you both for this! By the way, I'm no mountain climber, I'm just very interested about it, especially Mallory and Irvine.

[@ftapon]

Be sure to watch this new video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5m4hIR9m9WEl6M

[@bobgeorge8382]

Ultimately, there's no mystery about what GM stated numerous times about potential routes to the summit. The only mystery is why people are still talking about the second step. Mallory stated repeatedly (all in print in books, letters and postcards) that he had no intention of taking on anything so technically difficult such as the second step because even if he could climb them he would be too exhausted to summit. He took either the zigzag or couloir route and was spotted by Odell at the the foot of the 3rd step or even the 'citadel'. At 12.50, there was time to summit and unfortunately the accident happened on the descent. Well done Bob Edwards on not drinking the second step kool-aid and looking at the FACTS.

[@ftapon]

I'm guilty of believing that the 2nd step was the only way. This interview indicates there were other options. Messner proved it on his solo ascent when he avoided the 2nd step. It's maddening that we haven't found Irvine.

[@bobgeorge8382]

​@@ftaponI think most people believe the second step theory because many mountaineers and / or authors have lazily continued with this narrative (for whatever reasons). This despite Mallory repeatedly stating he wanted nothing to do with it! There is a lot of evidence out there pointing towards them traversing below the ridge and being spotted coming up around the 3rd step. So glad to see Bob Edwards doing his research and dealing with facts rather than yesterday's tired narrative.

[@snappingbear]

Agreed. Michael Tracey has done an excellent job of thoroughly destroying the ridge theory. Mallory and no one on any of the early British attempts on Everest ever considered it. They always favored the routes that would bypass all the steps, especially the second one. Mallory was geared for rocks climbing that is why he likely took the zig zag route out of the couloir and once that happened he would have summited.

[@kenkaplan3654]

@@snappingbear You're right. Tracy has done a remarkable job over many videos deconstructing their attempt. If one looks at Odell's view from the precise spot, the second step is not visible. It is clear Mallory wanted the zig zag route, The evidence is very strong they summited. For anyone interested, I recommend Tracy's incredibly detailed videos tackling every aspect of their climb. All on KZbin.

[@jackharle1251]

Agreed. Mallory had his goggles in his pocket, which suggests he was on the way down. No picture of his wife, or children, were found on his body (promised he would leave pictures at the summit). We know he had pictures of his children prior to the summit attempt as his wife had just sent him photos, which he acknowledged receiving. *Conrad is considered a slow climber when compared to today's climbers (Mallory was considered an alpinist, a fairly fast climber).

[@jamesnasium4035]

Makes more sense that they died on the way down from the summit, the way most Everest climbers day, exhausted and vulnerable due to the long period in the death zone. Michael Tracy makes a good case; one piece of evidence is a photo of Mallory's kids that his wife sent to him, which he did not have on him when his body was found, though he had two other photos of less important people on him. Mallory said he was going to leave a photo of his wife at the summit, but Tracy makes a good case that Mallory never had such a photo on his ascent--so it makes sense he would leave a photo of his kids up there instead.

[@ftapon]

I've also heard at the whole story about the photo is fictional and has not been confirmed even though it has been repeated many times, so it seems true. I don't know

[@kenkaplan3654]

@@ftapon kzbin.info/www/bejne/jpWwq6Csp66Xj8U

[@YallaMiami]

Instead of wasting your time debating if he did, maybe you can talk about Gaza and the Geno$ide that’s happening there

[@whichkatami]

He complained to his wife for not sending him he pic, she sent the kids pic. So he told her he’d leave the kids pix on the summit if he made it.

[@johnvaughn2590]

@@YallaMiami You (we) had a chance to help there but our (your) incessant harping on Democrats in an attempt to bend Harris to your will before the election, rather than after the election, made sure Mad King Trump became President. Now you can deal with that. Also, the Palestinians probably shouldn't have elected a bunch of homicidal maniacs in Hamas.

[@leeseaman6068]

A crystal-clear and highly intelligent interview that takes this analysis to a whole new level. It's been a breath of fresh air. Thank you.

[@ftapon]

Thank you! Please share it! We need calm, dispassionate, unbiased analysis.

[@diannebdee]

But Dr. Edwards assertion the Chinese won't let anyone off the fixed assigned routes is sort of moot. That's how Conrad Anker found Mallory by going off the accepted routes. So if we accept the whole argument the Chinese won't allow anyone outside those routes, then Sandy will never be found. However, without concrete proof the Chinese will only allow fixed routes, it still doesn't take into consideration that Sandy has never been found. I'd say the more accepted view would be what I mentioned above in the Chinese found Irvine and the camera and took him off the mountain and disposed of his body believing he might have been Mallory. Bao did say "Old English sitting." We know Mallory was in the arrest position and not sitting. So who was sitting as "Old English?"

[@bluesserenader]

Quite a few comments to this video state the following: "There's a photograph of him [Oddell] pointing to the spot on the mountain where he last saw them." This assumption is incorrect. The photo was taken by Reinhold Messner in early 1978, when he visited Oddell at his home in England in preparation for his [Messner's] oxygenless attempt on Everest. The photo is reproduced on page 33 of Messner's 1978 book "Everest - Expedition zum Endpunkt", and the caption reads: Oddel mit Everest von Norden. Finger an der Stelle, an der die Eisaxt Mallorys gefunden wurde". Translation: "Oddell with Everest as seen from the north. Finger points at the spot where Mallory's ice ax has been found." So Oddell pointed at the ice ax spot, NOT at the spot of his last sighting of M.&I.!

[@ftapon]

Thanks for the valuable insight. Lots of misinformation out there!

[@ftapon]

@@MA-oj8zk I agree with your two points. 1. Memories are fallible. Remain skeptical. Stay open-minded. 2. The idea that Mallory grabbed a spare ice axe is dubious. Climbers shave every gram. Mallory inventoried his oxygen supply & other items. Why wouldn't he mention a spare ice axe? Pairing your two ideas together: we might question whether the ice axe was found in a place where it's unlikely to have an accident. Perhaps it's unlikely for a normal climber to fall there, but oxygen-deprived climbers who are stumbling in the dark without a light (like Mallory & Irvine might been) do stupid shit.

[@czarcastic1458]

Then why did he change his mind where he saw them?

[@ftapon]

@@czarcastic1458 For the same reason you change your mind as to where you last saw your keys. Humans reevaluate their memories, alter them, invent new memories, etc...

[@czarcastic1458]

@@ftapon Then he can't be taken as a serious source for Facts.

[@rishiwalker2027]

Excellent interview and answers. I hugely appreciate the answers and reasoning provided. They all match with Michael Tracy's research.

[@fergalohearga9594]

The book is brilliant. I can't recommend it highly enough.

[@alexmartins5286]

Norton and summerville reached 28000 feet 4 days before without Oxygen. Went thru zig zag rout as since 2021 Mallory said going thru second step impossible. At 1250hs, after around 7 hours of climbing, when Odell são também, they went up in average 216 feet up per hour. Much slower than Mallory expectation. Só for sure they had total possibility tô reach summit. Died way down. They took around 10 hours tô reach summit. Extended in three hours their way up expectation of 7-8 hours. Unfortunately died late night due to a fall when they were tied to each other. For what I have heard this is the most possible of what hás happened.

[@ftapon]

@@alexmartins5286 I believe that Reinhold Messner said that the zigzag route was not possible and nobody has done it, but I could be wrong. You meant 1921, not 2021 😉

[@jonntischnabel]

I would imagine the body was avalanched off the mountain some time after 1965, it broke up, and moved down the glacier, the foot has now emerged lower down. The rest will in time. I was in the Swiss Alps in 2018 (or maybe 17), and was snowboarding on a glacier at Les diablerets. Earlier that year, some legs emerged from the bottom of the glacier, it was a couple that went missing in the 1920s.

[@polarbearsrus6980]

We'll never know, but it is exciting to try and solve the mystery. This is one of 3 questions I would love to know the answer to before I die but it's impossible to know. Mallory (whether he did it or not) and Shackleton are my heroes!!! These were real men, not corporations and the wealthy on expensive, dangerous climbing tours for the wealthy. It's too easy, you can't compare it to the first explorers. Thanks for sharing.

[@ftapon]

You're probably right that we'll never know, but I wouldn't say "never" until we find Irvine's body. If his body has rocks or photos from the summit, we'll KNOW they made it.

[@RalphBrooker-gn9iv]

Nice comment. I paid my respects to Shackleton on South Georgia in 1982 at the cessation of hostilities. I cling to the detail of Mallory’s photo of his wife. From the Anker-Roberts book of the 1999 discovery we know how well intact GM’s remains were. Even facial stubble was observed. So where was the photo if not at the summit.

[@Zeph-r7f]

Don’t be a tease. What are the other two questions? 😅

[@billcook4768]

@@Zeph-r7fOne is probably, “Is a hot dog a sandwich?”

[@billcook4768]

To give a different opinion… I don’t want to know. It being a mystery is better than knowing one way or the other.

[@sabrinaboumenir4514]

Amazingly done Bob!

[@eduardoprestes1663]

In hist last view, Odell said they were on the ridge, just under the last rock step before the summit. That is a strong evidence, it would be just under the citadel and third step. And if Mallory and Irvine was there around noon, they sure went to the summit, there would be plenty of time for this and no real obstacle. The weather was good that that day and the next day, it was not a threat to them. The most probable scenario is that they summited and died during the descent, in the dark, from a fall, and due to exhaustion, cold and lack of oxygen. If they were all the time under the first step, they would had gave up in the afternoon and return safely to the tent for a hot tea. It would be a short walk of 1 or 2 hours. They died because they remained long hours above 8000 m and beyond their pack of oxygen, exposed to the freezing night, what comprimise their strenght and skills. The fall was the result of a night descent in some kind of exhaustion. Their deaths is somehow a proof that they were climbing long hours and not making an exploratory walk around first step.

[@ftapon]

I agree with your scenario. The only corrections: 1) They were spotted at 12:50 pm, which is "around noon" but I would say "around 1 pm" - that extra hour matters. 2) The weather was NOT good. First, Odell briefly saw them. Clouds covered the summit nearly the whole day. Good weather would mean they had clear visibility. They did not. An AI will provide the other facts regarding the weather: On June 8, 1924, the day George Mallory and Andrew Irvine disappeared during their summit attempt on Mount Everest, the weather conditions were likely treacherous due to a severe storm. Here are the key details: ## Significant Drop in Barometric Pressure Newly analyzed weather data from the 1924 expedition revealed a precipitous drop in barometric pressure in the days leading up to June 8th, indicating the arrival of a powerful storm system.[1][2] The pressure drop at base camp was around 18 millibars, which is considered significant.[4] ## Intense Storm Conditions Near the Summit The barometric pressure drop suggests that Mallory and Irvine likely encountered an intense storm with high winds, heavy snow, and poor visibility as they approached the summit on June 8th.[1][2][4] Such a storm would have made climbing extremely hazardous and difficult to navigate. ## Lack of Oxygen from Low Pressure At Everest's extreme altitude, the air is already severely depleted of oxygen. The additional drop in barometric pressure caused by the storm would have further reduced the oxygen levels, potentially causing hypoxia (lack of oxygen).[1][4] Hypoxia can lead to confusion, impaired judgment, and physical impairment, all of which are dangerous for climbers. While accounts from lower elevations reported only a brief afternoon blizzard on June 8th, the conditions experienced by Mallory and Irvine several thousand feet higher were likely drastically worse due to the elevation difference.[1] In summary, the newly analyzed weather data strongly indicates that Mallory and Irvine faced a powerful storm with life-threatening conditions of high winds, heavy snow, low visibility, and oxygen deprivation near the summit of Everest on the day of their disappearance in 1924.[1][2][4] Citations: [1] www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna38639968 [2] www.npr.org/sections/pictureshow/2010/08/06/129036467/everest [3] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1924_British_Mount_Everest_expedition [4] www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-10854272 [5] www.cnn.com/travel/mallory-disappeared-everest-summit-mystery/index.html

[@eduardoprestes1663]

@@ftapon That is a kind of new for me. I thought it was a cloudy and windy afternoon, a quiet and freezing night, followed by a sunny morning. If they face a storm there, then it would be very difficult to endure in that old fashion mountaineering clothes. But Mallory for sure didn't die in a freezing position, he felt and broke a leg, maybe with a head injury too. And he was pretty close to their highest camp, where he and Irvine could had found shelter. The better scenario for them stay the same. They traversed the yellow band under the ridge and reappeared on the only position Odell could saw then "on the ridge", near the thrid step and the citadel. And this would be pretty close to the summit. The other possibilities is that Odell diidn't see them (foolished by some kind of optical illusion) or they went all the way by the ridge, with Odell seeing them climbing the first step (there is an view angle problem with this hypothesis). You say that the storm would blocked the path to the summit. I agree, but I think that if they were low on the ridge, they would had stopped climbing as soon as the storm approched. And if they were low, they could reached the tent in a pair of hours, in a good shape. I believe more in a forced error, by exhaustion or induced by a storm, if there was one. But this could only happened if they went far on the climbing, like Odell reported, and remained out there in the evening and the night.

[@ftapon]

​@@eduardoprestes1663 As Dr. Roberts states after 4:10, Odell was unlikely fooled by an optical illusion. I'm 70% sure that Mallory made it to the summit despite the worsening weather. As you say, exhaustion and darkness set it on their descent. He was found without his oxygen apparatus, so he probably ran out of oxygen on the descent, so he ditched the apparatus. However, without oxygen, he would have gotten much colder, and he would lose his mental faculties. People suffering from oxygen deprivation make stupid decisions like taking off their gloves. Maybe in his delirium, he left his ice axe behind. He lacked light, oxygen, and warm clothes. He stumbled through a storm, hypothermic, couldn't see, desperate to find his camp. He slipped, broke his leg, smashed his face, and died minutes after coming to a stop. Was Irvine belaying him? Did he cry Mallory's name into the howling wind and hear nothing? Did Irvine hide between rocks with his sleeping bag, freezing to death? It was not sunny the following morning. I was cloudy throughout the day and into the following day. Perplexity writes: The weather on Mount Everest the day after George Mallory and Andrew Irvine disappeared, June 9, 1924, was characterized by a significant drop in barometric pressure and temperature. This drop was likely the result of a meteorological phenomenon known as a Western Disturbance, which triggered a severe blizzard. The barometric pressure at base camp dropped by approximately 18 millibars, which would have exacerbated the hypoxic conditions experienced by climbers at high altitudes[1][2][3][4].

[@annnee6818]

Also the first step wasn't visible from where Odell stood

[@byronsmithinc]

What Odell thinks he saw or recalls he saw and what he actually saw can be two different things.

[@williambarkho]

Congratulations bob! Awesome video and interview! M&I MADE IT! Thank you also Francis!

[@Garde538]

Great interview

[@surjitpuri4839]

Surprisingly how a Mathemetician and non climber could have such dtatailed analysis of climbing.How great .

[@philstevens3821]

They traversed below the second step and possibly up the coulior or the “zig zag” route. Give Michael Tracey’s channel a watch. In my opinion he is a great source of information that he backs up with credible research

[@czarcastic1458]

Tracy doesn't know squat.

[@kenkaplan3654]

@@czarcastic1458 Based on what?

[@allanfrederick8705]

@@kenkaplan3654 He may speculate on some things, but MT is an asshole that nobody wants to collaborate with. He is a textbook narcissist.

[@czarcastic1458]

@@kenkaplan3654 All his opinions with zero facts. He doesn't know squat. He paints a pretty picture and you fall for it.

[@kenkaplan3654]

@@czarcastic1458 Actually he provides quite a bit of facts, especially wildly contradictory positions of a climber on the same issue.

[@kenwbrenner]

Thanks for an interesting video. Felt Dr. Edwards did a good job in his discussion. Hope you have a blessed Thankssgiving!

[@rickgoede5237]

Odell was a geologist. He would not have mistaken a rock for a person.

[@czarcastic1458]

Or maybe he lied

[@Jake-bt3fc]

Knowing about the composition of different minerals doesn't mean a person shaped rock doesn't still look like a person to you, lol. I'm a carpenter, if you carved a human out of wood it would still look human to me from a distance. I don't have magic wood detecting eyeballs.

[@Ghostshadows306]

What does being a geologist have to do with seeing two people at 28,000 feet more than a half vertical mile away? The truth is it doesn’t even take hypoxia to see things at distance that appear to be moving that are not. The way it’s resolved is by continuing to watch them for a period of time and eventually finding out. Odell wasn’t able to do that as a cloud system moved in and ended his view. The chances he saw rocks or Gorak’s is just as likely as him seeing Mallory and Irvine. There’s all kinds of testimony from people who have climbed Everest who thought they saw people moving up or down the mountain at distance, who eventually realized they were rocks or other objects and not people. That doesn’t mean Odell didn’t see Mallory and Irvine, it means it’s just as likely he didn’t see them as it is that he saw them. Which is unfortunate considering he was the one who had the best chance of knowing where they were and what may have happened.

[@diannebdee]

And right up until he passed, his vision was impeccable.

[@dukecraig2402]

OMG seriously, like there's not a difference between looking at something at a distance and holding it in your hand, it's not like he was looking at a rock in his hand or 10 feet in front of him and said "Look!!! It's Mallory going for the summit!!!". Your claim has got to be one of the silliest I've ever read on KZbin, I mean really.

[@GordonHogg-j3k]

My great grandfathers stepbrother was Frank Smythe, who went on 3 expeditions to Everest in the 1930s and reached a record hight on the mountain without oxygen that stood until Mesner !

[@stewartjohnking]

Mr Edwards' comment that Mallory should have chosen Odell as his climbing partner is open to challenge. It's true that Odell demonstrated an ability to ascend and descend at high altitudes at remarkable speed. But the ability to manage the oxygen equipment was absolutely critical. Irvine was something of an engineering genius and had made major adaptations to the equipment. I think the choice of Irvine also reinforces the belief that Mallory was not anticipating anything much in the way of technical climbing. And definitely not the Second Step! Anyway, the book sounds thoroughly researched and Amazon is hopefully delivering it in a day or two. One final thing - people here have referenced Michael Tracy's videos. His analysis is terrific. But he is prickly and intolerant. You have been warned!

[@ftapon]

True 😊 Tracey has strong opinions, strongly held. 😉 Let me know what you think of Dr Edwards's book!

[@philcunningham6901]

@@ftapon I would love to see a Dr Ed + Micheal Tracy conversation/ debate. They are both scholars and well educated on the subject ... and both seem to be stubborn by nature too

[@ftapon]

​@@philcunningham6901 I reached out to Tracy (you can see the thread on his video about a comment made in this thread). Tracy refused to debate Dr. Edwards unless Edwards agreed that the Chinese never summitted in 1960. Frankly, I don't see why that matters that much. Upon hearing that, Dr. Edwards declined to debate Tracy.

[@markschneider3915]

Can't wait to read the book, I guess I'm still skeptical that given their attire they would have made it. The authors view that modern climbers have tunnel vision of only considering the second step route is interesting, is he aware of the type of routes Conrad Anker has pioneered? I think he would have been able to consider most of the possible routes Mallory could have tried. By 99 he had way more high altitude experience than all of the 1924 climbers combined. Still, either by a traverse or direct ridge climb they might have gotten to the top only to find out what everyone knows these days, the decent is way more dangerous.

[@ftapon]

@@markschneider3915 the fact that they got up to around 28000 ft implies that they could make it up another thousand feet even in their crappy attire. I don't know Anker's route and I doubt Edwards knows it either. Assuming it's viable, it only proves what we already know: they could have theoretically summited. You will enjoy the book!

[@dirremoire]

Pretty obvious that mathematicians aren't noted for their people skills. Still, this was a remarkable interview. Probably the best on the subject.

[@Beery1962]

He does seem a bit irascible. Weird, since the interviewer is not challenging him in any forceful way.

[@VTPSTTU]

Thanks for the video. I don't have an opinion on whether they reached the summit. I enjoy hearing educated speculation on the topic. Dogma is much less welcome. No matter what happened, they were remarkable men to have accomplished all that they did.

[@ftapon]

I feel the same way although I am now leaning toward the idea that they may have reached the summit. 70% chance. Before, I thought the opposite.

[@kenkaplan3654]

@@ftapon The evidence we now know favors it

[@jimmyzbike]

We know so much and yet so little. To my knowledge the physical evidence supports they did not use the modern route. Did they die on the way up or down? Modern statistics trend towards people dying on the way down after submitting.

[@ftapon]

Your comment nails it!

[@opowqte]

GM chose Irving over Odell since Irving was a wizard on the very fickle oxygen apparatus beside being an althelete

[@iainthomson9160]

Having been at Sir Edmund Hillary view to the summit book launch in Melbourne Australia it was discussed in detail and in his point of view it was extremely likely that they made it to the possibility of a higher snow coverage over the 2nd step... I still have the signed copy of Sir Edmund Hillary view to the summit also signed by his son also and pictures of that day.... Peace to all...

[@nivikz2487]

We may well find out soon !

[@localbod]

Anyone who has studied Mallory knows that he had no intention of following the modern route and climbing the second step.

[@bluesserenader]

Let me cite Colonel Norton in the 1924 expedition report FIGHT FOR EVEREST, pp.111&112, talking about his & Somervell's summit bid: "...The line we had followed was one roughly parallel to and perhaps 500 to 600 feet below the crest of the Noth-east Aréte; this was the line Somervell and I had always favoured in preference of the actual crest, which Mallory advocated." Here we have another source which tells us that Mallory clearly prefered to climb via the North-east ridge.

[@johndefenderfer5946]

@@bluesserenader There are letters that George wrote before the expedition that laid out a case for not climbing the ridge and why he wasn't going to go that route. Also, he told the expedition photographer where to set up his cameras and the two routes he planned on taking depending on the winds/weather and neither one of the were the ridge route.

[@angelaoltean7905]

Congratulation Bob!

[@tomhernon1750]

there is one thing no one has brought up. mountains change. rock formations change. the loss of one hand hold could make a route unclimbable . no one had touched the second step before him. what do u think?

[@annnee6818]

Doesn't change the fact he didn't plan to climb the second step at all in the first place does it. But you're right of course, the second step has recently collapsed so the climb has become still easier.

[@BHSNMrAdams]

@@annnee6818 The Second Step did not collapse, the Hillary Step did. Different feature on a different route.

[@BHSNMrAdams]

Second Step was probably not climbed until the Chinese put the ladder there in 1975. Mallory and the rest of his team had seen it from below, and knew perfectly well it was, if not literally unclimbable, certainly not worth the energy it would take to climb it. Plus, getting down would have been even harder. He made clear on multiple occasions he did not plan on taking that route, including the night before he made his attempt.

[@levitateme]

when Mallory told Norton he would climb with Irving, in a very English way he responded, "well, I sayyy!"

[@glenbetton3146]

I don't think you can start from the presumption that Odell accurately saw something at a certain point which he could not identify with certainty and which he later retracted multiple times. IMHO, M&I never went to the second step. They started the day very late and knew they didn't have the technical ability to get through the second step. They most likely tried lateral traversing and after failing to get a route for an alternate traverse that left them way too late on the exposed face, without adequate oxygen, time or light to get safely back, they then then died descending. They almost made it back to camp but one of them slipped whilst suffering from exhaustion, cold and altitude sickness and given they were roped together they fell to their deaths

[@ftapon]

@@glenbetton3146 in his book, dr. Edwards doesn't presume Odell's sighting was accurate. He says, "IF it is accurate, then...." If it is not, all bets are off...

[@grungymtnman]

Yup, It's all contingent on the validity of the sighting. Hard to really know what to think as he later recanted his statement, but under some pressure/criticism. If it was the 3rd step, then they probably made it. I don't think they would have been able to climb the second step. I know it could have been possible, so I don't really by into his sighting possibly being them climbing the second step. If it was the first step, then there's no way being that low at that time of the day.

[@GordonHogg-j3k]

I have his son’s book written about 20 years ago and it records those events !

[@ref1112]

600 feet at this height (the death zone) is no cake walk. Many responsible climbers quit here. Many have died here.

[@ftapon]

@@ref1112 true, although it's certain that Mallory did not die there.

[@insightsman196]

Mallory would not have given up 600 ft away, possibly summit fever even by this point , Happens to the Best and to anyone, The Mt Calls you, Problem is descent

[@ftapon]

@insightsman196 true, but it's not clear that Mallory got within 600 ft of the summit.

[@insightsman196]

@ftapon I am going off Odell's First hand account, And what Dr. Edwards said about him using a tool or instrument like Binoculars, in the first interview with him you did ,making it a 5-1 probability He was right, now if you take away Odell's sighting we don't have much to go on, true, I am not going off Norton's account, He had his own agenda , Dr. Edwards didn't mention his name ,but said in the 1930 there was a move to discredit Odell , motivated by personal reasons

[@DiptiSingh-d9t]

Sirs, does it matter whether they summitted or not. No, it does not. We all can have our own theories. But thr fact is they reached where no human had ever reached before. Their equipment and indomitable will power is an everlasting memory for all mankind to cherish and take inspiration from. Short by few hundred feet in 29000 feet ascent in hobnails is no mean feat. Sleep with pride, o great mallory and irvine, your legacy shall temain forever... Inspiring future mountaineers forever.....

[@ftapon]

I agree that no matter what happened, their achievement was a remarkable milestone we must celebrate! But it does matter whether they summited because it makes their achievement even more noteworthy and it dethrones Edmund Hillary & Tenzing Norgay.

[@Jake-bt3fc]

If you really really want to be pedantic, nothing about history matters. It does not matter to me _at all_ who was the first man to step foot on the moon. The second guy was 3 seconds behind the first guy so who cares who was first? We can make pedantic arguments like this all day long, lol.

[@jacekkozianski711]

​@@ftaponSeriously, what did they achieve that was so marvelously different to the multitude of corpses that adorn Mt Everest, hmmmm? Some of those corpses actually made the summit, we have proof they did and here you are rabbiting on about conjecture, myth and legend from 100 murky years ago!!! I know you have to spruik your opinions to sell your books to inflate your bank balance, but for God's sake get a life - who cares after the hundreds who have summited and returned alive.

[@michaelwicks7680]

Time is a monderful thing.. A few weeks ago Irvine's body (or a bit of it) has been found 😮

[@eduardoprestes1663]

And from where these north ridge route hypothesis came? Not from Mallory, that always discarded these route. If Mallory and Irvine followed a line under the ridge, to the couloir, they would only reappear on the ridge under the third step and the citadel. This is the only place that Odell could possible see them "on the ridge". And put them on this position is almost the same to say that they summited. So, to deny this possibility, there are only two ways. One, is to say that Odell didn't see them, it was a mistake, an allucination. The other is to say that the climbers went all way on the ridge, so they could be placed above first step and under the second step. The couloir routes connect to the ridge only around the third step, with a clean path to the summit. To admit that the climbers follow through the couloir and reach the ridge is the same to say that they summited. So came this north ridge route theory, that put the second step between the climbers and the summit. I know there is a time problem with the couloir-ridge route, and in those context the speculation of a "zig-zag" line to exit the coulour became important. It would be a quickly way to reach the ridge, much faster than traverse the couloir to the gully Norton tried and Messner climbed. Messner said it's impossible to exit the couloir other way. But Norton said that the today called "zig-zag line" would be a viable climb, almost easy, but very dangerous. I hope someone try these "zig-zag" line someday and tell us what he (or she) found there.

[@ftapon]

Your hypothesis is solid! The weakness is that nobody has climbed the zig-zag route, and Messner said it was too hard. Messner went in August when it was snow-covered. Perhaps it's easier in June. The absence of any successful attempts on the route serves as a testament to the validity of Messner's claim: the zig-zag route is indeed a formidable challenge. Before this interview & book, I thought there was a 20% chance that Mallory summited. Now, I think it's 80%. I don't know why people don't think he could have climbed Messner's route.

[@eduardoprestes1663]

​@ftapon Norton tried the Zig Zag Line, it seems to be the obvious and most direct option for anyone traversing the Yellow Band, under the North Ridge. He found the route feasible, but very dangerous, due to exposure, slippery ground and loose rocks. Norton was alone, so he decided to cross the couloir and try the gully, a safer option. However, this is a more time-consuming line and afterall it became too late for him to go for the summit pyramid. Messner traverse lower in the wall, he was not as close as Norton to have a look at the zig zag area. The australians that climbed the Great Couloir reach the summit area by the gully too. Maybe, nobody went there except Norton, to get a closer look. Thousands of climbers crossed the North Ridge of Everest, but I never heard of one who tried to climb this line. It is more an untried line, not an impossible one. It was one of the three options that Mallory and Irvine had: North Ridge (and Second Step), "Zig Zag" and the gully (crossing the Great Couloir). I don't know which way they followed, but one thing I am sure about: they didn't stay fooling around all day, sitting on rocks and talking about the views. They tried hard to reach the summit, by one of these routes.

[@ftapon]

@@eduardoprestes1663 I hope you're right. I'm just skeptical about the feasibility of an "untried line." Mountaineers LOVE to claim "first ascents" and new lines. Therefore, why hasn't anyone done the zig-zag line? Maybe it is too difficult. Dr. Edwards suggests the Chinese force people to stay on a narrow path toward the summit. Still, you'd think someone would get a waiver to try the Zig Zag.

[@WellyCoaster]

​@@ftapon Looking through the early records Frank Smythe in 1933 looks first to have identified Messners route. Hugh Ruttledge and the 1933 climbers communicated with Norton about route possibilities before the expedition. It doesn't appear to be in discussion before 1933. Norton favoured crossing the couloir to the west as high as possible, the steep roof tile slabs there with snow on them were what forced the climbers back. Smythe thought of a theory of entering the couloir low down below the yellow band and then climbing directly up and out the couloir on the west side (Messner and the Aussies route). The position of the camps look to be a factor on this route. Messner, the Aussies both positioned their high camp up in the couloir itself. 1924 camp being on the north ridge. Hugh Ruttledge in Everest 1933: "I would strongly recommend single-minded adherence to Norton's route, which offers a practical certainty of succcss in good conditions. Provided that you can synchronise the arrival of two parties at the top of their form with the absence of snow and three, or preferably four, days of consecutive fine weather, I believe that the summit will be reached by Norton's route. Before leaving this subject I should say something about a theory which Smythe has developed. This is, that the north face can be traversed at a level of about 25,500 feet, the couloir crossed at this height, and a lodgment effected upon the western part of the north face directly below the final pyramid. The face will then have to be climbed more or less directly, up what is undoubtedly steep ground ; but there will be this advantage, that the possibly more dangerous traverse of the upper slabs and the upper couloir will be avoided, and direct access afforded to the western subsidiary couloir leading to the easier slopes of the final pyramid. The difficulty is that, while we know the advantages of Norton's route and the possibility of placing a high camp either where it was placed in 1933 or, better still perhaps, on a snow-slope just below the first step, we cannot know without previous reconnaissance that Smythe's proposed route will " go," or that suitable sites will be found for at least two camps which would be needed on the face ; and a great deal of time would be expended in this reconnaissance." On a side note i think if the zig zag was a viable route the Chinese would have climbed it by now. In 1975 they had a party of four traverse under to the couloir (Nortons line). Days after this they shifted their high camp above the first step near mushroom rock and then went to the trouble of fixing the second step ladder. They had 9 climbers summit with the tripod. I think if the zig zag exists and was any easier than the second step then over the years the Chinese would have gone back and fixed it with rope. They know the area better than anyone.

[@jdw6925]

Interesting and I like the mathematical approach. With regard to the ice axe, it is very, very, very, very unlikely to have been left there as a marker. The oxygen cylinder was found nearby, so why not just use that instead. It is almost certainly the site of an accident - either dropped by Irvine by mistake or else ripped out of his hands as the rope came taught and pulled him off his feet, due to Mallory falling some distance ahead. It looks like they were descending in the dark, so they would have been roped (and Mallory was found with the rope tied to him, which had snapped) and Mallory would have been in front. The axe is pretty close to the fall line. The inexperinced Irvine would have been left in the dark, without partner or axe. He would have tried to continue, realised that he couldn't and so got into his sleeping bag and died, only to be found by a chinese climber forty years later, who was descending away from the usual route.

[@ftapon]

I used to believe the same thing that you did It makes a ton of sense what you write But in the book the author explains that the ice axe would have to defy the law of physics to be standing where it was found. See the book for the full and compelling explanation.

[@jdw6925]

@@ftapon Defy the laws of physics?? Was it hovering above the ground? I read that it was found lying flat on some fairly horizontal slabs.

[@ftapon]

@@jdw6925 In 1933, Wyn Harris said the axe was "lying on the slabs, which are hereabouts inclined at an angle of 35-40 degrees, unsupported by crack or ledge, and dependent on friction alone for its lodgment." Robert Edwards writes in his book, "The proponents of the 'accident' scenario therefore had to believe that the ice axe had fallen from a climber's grasp and had stopped in the same spot, where no protrusion or indentation could arrest it. An object that falls even three feet is moving at 13 feet per second. Yet according to the 'accident' hypothesis, this falling smooth object had stopped on a smooth slab inclined at an angle of 35-40 degrees. In short, the 'accident' scenario defies the laws of physics. More than this, with available data, we cannot say."

[@jdw6925]

@@ftapon Thank you for your response - much appreciated. What if Irvine was pulled along the slabs perpendicular to the incline? Also, he may not even drop it straight away, only after he's being pulled along the slabs himself, with the axe already on the deck. There's lots of possibilities - he could have landed on the axe creating large amounts of friction between the axe and the surface of the slabs. He could have had the axe with the spike in contact with the slabs (like using it as a walking stick) and not had a proper grip on it when he got pulled away - leaving the axe to pivot down onto the slabs and slide down a bit before coming to rest (neither the axe nor the slabs would have been perfectly smooth). From a mountaineering point of view, I reckon there's considerably less than a one percent chance that anybody would leave an ice axe as a marker and, if they somehow did, you'd have to multiply that by the probability that the person leaving it thought it would be sensible to leave it on a smooth slab inclined at 35-40 degrees - so you're talking less than 1 in 1000 at best. Compare that to a big unexpected accident - on rock slabs, he's going to drop that axe or have it ripped from him over 99% of the time.

[@ftapon]

​@@jdw6925 I understand your point. You're right that there are scenarios where the axe could have been placed, and the accident occurred seconds later. At 13:40, Dr. Edwards observes that the found ice axe was too short for Irvine. But he also said that Irvine had to buy the ice axe. Maybe the short one was on sale? He was 21. He saw the climb as a "lark." On the other hand, you'd think that's one place you wouldn't want to skimp on. At 14:20, Dr. Edwards suggests that the ice axe belonged to a porter or was a spare. But if so, it would have appeared on their inventory lists. Climbers shave every gram of unnecessary weight. Carrying a heavy axe as a spare seems excessive & unrealistic. Also, using it as a marker seems hard to believe unless it was a spare. But if it was a spare, where did it come from? Why would a porter give up his ice axe? Another option: they ran out of oxygen on the descent. When that happens, climbers get disoriented & irrational. Perhaps Irvine, in the darkness, sat and placed his ice axe next to him while in a state of delirium. When he stood up again, he forgot about his axe and walked like a zombie until he fell or huddled a few meters down, trying to tough out the night. The possibilities are endless. We must find Irvine.

[@drstrangelove4998]

Odell famously had very acute eyesight. If he said he saw two dots moving smartly at that height on Everest, it was either Mallory and Irving, or Mr & Mrs Abominable Snowman, it could have been nothing else.

[@10splitter]

The tricky bit would have been finding - relocating, on the way back down, the correct route through the cracks of the yellow band, which are labyrinthine, that would have led them back to their high camp.

[@craigfairweather3401]

@@10splitter This is why I think the short ice-axe was deliberately left on the correct path by them. as an aid to finding their way back, as the shiny metal was reflective. HOWEVER Mallory was found on the slope below the axe. Perhaps they missed the axe and fell while searching for it on unfamiliar ground.

[@steveningram3732]

I believe they had no intention of taking the ridge route because they knew the difficulty of the 2nd step. They crossed the yellow band and went up the couloir via the zig zag route. They were seen at the third step by Odell.

[@ftapon]

Messner said the zigzag route was too hard and he went near it. I'm unsure if anyone has done the zig-zag route.

[@dr.nigelcool3771]

A mathematician will not understand the intricacies of climbing Everest. It helps to be a mountain climber, particularly one who has climbed Everest and has studied its history of climbs in great detail. That guy is Michael Tracy. He thinks Mallory and Irvine summited, but of course we will never know for sure.

[@ftapon]

@@dr.nigelcool3771 you are writing something that implies that the mathematician does not think that Mallory summited Everest. He takes no opinion. He just shares facts and lets you decide

[@kiwicory100]

Did the expedition use a hand held signal mirror?

[@ftapon]

I do not think so

[@SuperEvilMonkee]

They had flares but in best Mallory tradition had forgotten them

[@MakeItSo1111]

Thank you! ❤

[@MDog_FPV]

If they would have descended the second step, they would have had to leave a rope on the second step. Can not descend without leaving a rope. No rope was left hanging there... I believe Norton told Mallory to go try the ridge even though Mallory did not prefer the ridge, as Norton just tried the couloir route - he could have concluded they would need more oxygen and time to complete a summit via the couloir. They then attempted all options on the ridge and some accident happened. No summit is my guess. Maybe another interview with Michael Tracey

[@kenkaplan3654]

@@MA-oj8zk I think Tracy deals with the oxygen bottle issue.

[@vincentharling9548]

I don't think they made it. Given the latest info regarding Irvines boot The two bodies are way to far apart. I think there was an accident that split them and both drifted apart . Malory almost certainly fell

[@annnee6818]

If they had turned around the time on the watch makes no sense. The bodies being far apart also doesn't make more sense if they'd died ascending. Nor does the location of Mallorys body. They definitely died descending, we just can't be sure whether they summited.

[@davids11131113]

I just like to think they summited, and fell on the way down. No real reason to think they had not made it.

[@ftapon]

@@davids11131113 there are several real reasons to think they didn't make it, but I hope they made it

[@Lindleyferchel]

Mallory was going to leave a picture of his wife on top of Everest and they did not find it on the body.

[@ftapon]

I believe in his book, Dr. Edwards says there's no enough evidence to be sure this oft-cited tale is true.

[@philippalbert5536]

​@@ftapon Clare Mallory remembered her father saying he's gonna leave a letter from Ruth at the summit. She said this even after learning about the letters found on GM's body. They misidentified one of the letters as being from Ruth that in reality was from a family friend.

[@andrewemery4272]

Statistically, almost all fatalities on Everest (Eve-rest) occur on the descent after summiting. Therefore there is every reason to believe that they succeeded.

[@ftapon]

@@andrewemery4272 your logic doesn't make a lot of sense. There are plenty of people who die on The descent having not made the summit

[@dirremoire]

​@@ftapon True, but given that they made it past the third step they would have been homefree to the summit. So a fall while descending does seem statistically the most probable.

[@QED_]

@@ftapon No, this is a reasonable argument when combined with the fact that they perished 12 hours after they were last seen at the First Step. They didn't spend those 12 hours NOT reaching the summit . . .

[@ftapon]

@@QED_ where is there evidence that they perish 12 hours after they were seen? Also, it's not 100% sure that they made it past the third step. I understand the logic of everybody's argument I'm just saying that it's quite possible that they did not summit. The evidence doesn't prove they summited. If it did, we wouldn't be debating this topic.

[@cyclonasaurusrex1525]

Wait, where do you see a full moon every day??

[@Rich6Brew]

On the ISS.

[@cyclonasaurusrex1525]

@@Rich6Brew Touché! 🤣🤣🤣

[@ralphaverill2001]

You haven't "conquered" a mountain until you have reached the summit and then gotten back down alive.

[@TheSaxon.]

He wasn't a tourist climber though. Whilst no one wants to die, the objective was to reach the summit. The first person to summit Everest is the first person to Summit Everest. Armstrong would've been the first man on the Moon, whether he survived the journey home or not. The rules are different for "firsts".

[@ralphaverill2001]

@@TheSaxon. True enough. Mallory/Irvine may well have been the first to summit, but my point is that Hillary/Norgay were the first to conquer Everest, because they got back down to tell the tale.

[@MakeItSo1111]

Cliche

[@summerfirebon2362]

Saying this is the same thing as saying Robert Falcon Scott did not reach South Pole 1912 which is absurd.

[@summerfirebon2362]

The quote was said by Mallory son, who must have been bereft of his lonely upbringing without his dad which caused him saying this pessimistic saying.

[@angelmist4253]

I've always believed that they made it that day.

[@Spike-sk7ql]

They never even attempted to climb the 2nd step.

[@billbright1755]

⛏️ if ice axes could only talk.

[@hatchy7918]

I feel they made it to the top, just a shame they never made it down

[@vincentharling9548]

I dont believe they reached the top. I think mallory fell to his death and irvine started to descend and died . Going on the location of irvines remains they are to far adrift of each other to both be descending

[@BHSNMrAdams]

Mallory was most certainly descending when he fell. Not only did he fall from (roughly) the first step, which was below even the most conservative estimation of where Odell saw them, he did so after dark, which we know because his goggles were in his pocket and his watch was stopped at sometime around 7:00. So wherever he got (and I am 98% sure they made it), he was on his way back down when he died. Where Irvine was when he fell is less clear, but it looks like either he fell before Mallory and Mallory continued on, or they fell together and Irvine went all the way down the North face.

[@williamcavanagh8982]

Enough said "No one knows" ..... not yet anyway.

[@michaelmello42]

The Great Couloir

[@dmbeaster]

Odell never said the third step. His statement is inconsistent with the third step. Talk about just making it up. Odell was an experienced mountaineer. Finally, Odell's testimony suffers from the classic problems with all eyewitness. He saw them briefly. He was not focusing on exactly where they were. He had no experiences studying the mountain from that angle. The terrain looks very different, which is typical on mountains. The reason the ridge route dominates thinking is because of Odell, and because of the ice age and oxygen bottle locations which are inconsistent with a traverse. The traverse route is NOT easier than the ridge route, nor does it go up to the third step. It has been climbed by more than Messner. Messner said leaving the traverse route to the third step is way too difficult. Also, the testimony about the ice ax is garbage by someone who admits no knowledge of mountaineering. The marks confirm it was Irvine's ax. NO ONE CARRIES A SPARE. Just rubbish.

[@ftapon]

So what do you think happened?

[@dmbeaster]

@@ftapon I do not think that they made it to the top. Its just a matter of the known difficulty on an unknown route (for them), and that they started way too late to make it based on modern experience. I think Mallory opted for the ridge route even though he had expressed a strong interest in the traverse (he allegedly had a preference for ridge routes, which as a mountaineer makes sense to me). The first oxygen bottle location only makes sense if they went that direction. It is too high if they were going to traverse as it requires a traverse above the yellow band (unless he goofed on where to start the traverse, and backtracked in some manner), and it was without question dropped on the way up. Did they have enough oxygen to at least get to the top? Unknown as it is uncertain whether they took two or three bottles per person, but a real problem if they only had two and ran out on the way up. I think that they spent a lot of time trying to get past the second step, and probably were successful but lost way too much time. Odell's testimony is also crucial in establishing a ridge route rather than a traverse (Tracy's logic in assuming a Z route from the traverse, and Odell seeing them on the third step, has no factual basis). I think Odell saw them on some bumpy feature near the second step as opposed to the cliff itself. Jake Norton's and Jochen Hemmleb's commentary convinced me of that. I think the contention that they were at the third step contradicts what Odell said - particularly his remark later that they were one step short of the final pyramid. From his location, the third step looks like part of the final pyramid. I discount the details of what Odell has said simply because of my knowledge about the problems with eyewitness testimony (I am a business trial lawyer). I think people spend way too much time trying to parse precise meaning out of his words, when he never provided a good description of where they were. If he did not know with certainty when he first saw them, there is no way he figured it out later (he was very firm later that it was at the second step). He was studying terrain from a new vantage point, which gets weird on mountains. And the vantage that he had is not a good one for picking out the ridge features. His written descriptions later differ in small ways. The more reliable thing is his initial journal entry made during the climb: "At 12.50 saw M. & I on ridge nearing base of final pyramid." That's it. After that, I have no idea, and there is no evidence other than the bodies and the weird ice ax (the mitten also near the ice ax, which provides very little insight, but probably lost on the way down, or during a fall perhaps?). I think they persisted upward until circumstances required a retreat (physical condition, lateness, the weather worsening starting at 2 pm, oxygen used up and hitting a wall without it, etc). I do not have any idea what happened, and sadly there is no evidence. A weird fact is Irvine's ice ax. It makes no sense to think that it was left on the rock on the way up, but maybe. It does not make sense to think it was the location of a fall on the way down. Did Irvine leave it there in a hypoxic state on the way down? Maybe. I think that they were making their way down the confusing little gullies in the area below the first step, and not that far from camp, when someone fell. It was probably late based on the goggles being in Mallory's pocket. They had no lights so were in huge danger if it had gotten dark. Even then, they were offline based on the location of Mallory's body. How far did he fall? Allegedly not that far as he was not too badly banged up compared to climbers who fell a 1,000 feet from the ridge. The rope marks on Mallory seem to make it clear that there was a violent fall. Mallory was able to self arrest apparently after losing his ice ax (never found). Irvine probably flew off the face and down to the glacier as he had no ice ax and no real skills for self arrest due to inexperience. I have become persuaded that Wang Hong-bao actually saw Mallory in 1975, but that is another weird fact. And what was seen in 1960 and 1995 when Irvine was allegedly seen? (was he swept off later to the Rongbuk glacier?) But those sightings were apparently above where Mallory was found, which makes little sense. My overall conclusion is that there still is not enough evidence to figure out what happened. It remains a mystery, although I think that the odds were definitely against them making it, and that is just based on what we know now about starting the climb from there that late.

[@ftapon]

​@@dmbeaster You've clearly thought about their final climb carefully. I agree with most of your analysis. I agree that Tracy's Z-route hypothesis is weak because Messner said it would be too hard and nobody has tried it (that I know of). I agree that Hong-bao's 1975 sighting of a deceased climber was likely Mallory. He spotted him at 8100 meters, where he was found in 1999. Given that the 1960 sighting of the other English dead was around 28,000 ft, one must conclude that Sandy died ABOVE Mallory.

[@velocitygirl8551]

Wow… this is so interesting but soooo slow…

[@ftapon]

@@velocitygirl8551 play at 2x speed 😉

[@jaysummers9396]

Well, we know Irvine didn't summit Everest, he was a foot short...

[@joesephsmith7991]

It is no secret by even today's standards that Mallory is one of the greatest mountain climbers who ever lived and with Irvine not very far behind him. So of course it is very possible that they both reached the summit of Mount Everest.

[@joesephsmith7991]

I remember the first time I saw Mallorys photograph after they finally found him. Looking at his still very impressive physique. I thought wow does this man ever climb big mountains.

[@ftapon]

@@joesephsmith7991 Irvine had never done any big mountains, so it is inaccurate to say that he was "not very far behind Mallory."

[@joesephsmith7991]

Thank you for this correction. I did not know that about Irvine. In either case if Irvine with Mallory did summit Everest. It was certainly with the equipment they had in those days a great feat by both men.

[@joesephsmith7991]

Sir I would like to personally thank you for posting this news and very interesting interview with Mr. Robert Edward's. Over the years I have read four different books written by professional mountaineer that have climbed all 14 of the eight thousanders. I think it is a shame that more people do not take climbing these mountains more seriously like the professional mountaineer s do. To many people today are not qualified or do they even have the experience to successfully attemp climbing these dangerous high altitude mountains. Anyway Sir I now look forward to reading Mr. Robert Edward's book Mallory Irvine and Everest.

[@ftapon]

@joesephsmith7991 thank you! Did you watch my video about Sandy Irvine?

[@richiekock8835]

A cakewalk: did Dr. Robert Edward ever climb Everest? Very pretentious statement, unless he has actually done it.

[@ftapon]

@@richiekock8835 he was making relative statement. Once you're above the 2nd step, it's no longer technical. It's just an uphill climb, albeit at altitude, which poses another challenge 😂

[@richiekock8835]

@@ftapon the use of the word cakewalk cannot be justified. He is an ignorant idiot sitting behind his desk, theorizing about something that nobody knows about anyway. Nobody knows whether they reached the summit because there is no evidence thereof. He can theorize all he wants. completely useless.

[@ftapon]

@@richiekock8835 Dr. Edwards speculates because I push him. He agrees with you that there is no evidence that they reached the summit. As long as you emphasize that you're speculating, there's no harm.

[@matthewruggieri5344]

I think he goes out of his way to qualify that by saying according to climbers who have summited thanks have a good one or something to that effect, so he isn’t saying as his opinion, he’s saying at as the opinion on Mt. Everest climbers through his research

[@CarrigansGuitarClub]

It's not even if Mallory or Hillary climbed Everest first, but Tenzing Norgay may have been the first!!!!

[@ftapon]

After decades of claiming they reached the summit simultaneously, Norgay admitted that Hillary reached it first.

[@CarrigansGuitarClub]

@@ftapon Yeah I think Norgay dined out on it for as long as he could - and why not :)

[@surjitpuri4839]

U better play guitar than comment upon serious topics

[@surjitpuri4839]

But after drinks,when I used inthe visiting faculty,Tenzing clai.ed he reached the top first

[@kevin6293]

No

[@ftapon]

@@kevin6293 you might be correct Why do you think they didn't summit?

[@kevin6293]

@@ftapon (1) there was a storm over Everest. They would have turned around before getting to the summit, and disappeared on the way back. (2) It took another 29 years before Edmund Hillary reached the top, and he needed the help of an experienced Sherpa, while Mallory’s partner was an inexperienced 22 year old Brit.

[@ftapon]

@kevin6293 those are logical and reasonable points although there is some controversy about what the weather was actually like on that day.

[@bustedford]

I think mallory and irvine summited because they were tough and stubborn enough to do it in those days

[@redlaw8760]

This will be unpopular, but based on the evidence I've seen, the chances of Mallory and Irvine reaching the summit are quite low. Odell has been interviewed multiple times (and changed his statements multiple times as well). There's a photograph of him pointing to the spot on the mountain where he last saw them. It's clearly the first step. The zig-zag route is based on nothing other than pure speculation. Norton told Mallory that going up the couloir route almost killed him and Howard Sommervell. Their equipment, especially their footwear, was not suited to climb up the couloir. To use Messner's ascent, done over 50 years later, is not only misplaced but dismissive of the realities of the times. Scientific evidence shows that the barometric pressure at the time of their climb dropped, making the environment even more difficult. Again, going on probabilities, and not possibilities, the odds were highly against them making it.

[@kenkaplan3654]

"There's a photograph of him pointing to the spot on the mountain where he last saw them. It's clearly the first step." No it isn't. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aISqg3aXfM-NnJI

[@redlaw8760]

@@kenkaplan3654 Yes, it is. I've seen the picture. Posting one of Michael's Tracy's pedantic but ultimately irrelevant posts doesn't change facts.

[@kenkaplan3654]

@@redlaw8760 After Mallory's body was found, I read numerous in depth articles and debates among those who found him and other well known climbers as to whether they could have made it. Every single one assumed the obstacle was the second step, every single one assumed Mallory and Irvine took the modern route. Now the preponderance of evidence is Mallory clearly said he was avoiding it, not only from "pedantic" (it's called thorough) Tracy but now this author. At the end of what I suggested from Tracy he says it is impossible to verify a zig a zag route ( or "traverse east of the couloir" as Norton suggested in 1933 and Mallory had suggested earlier) because the Chinese will not aloow permits for that route and will end careers if tried.

[@redlaw8760]

@@kenkaplan3654 But to rely on writings and statements made by Mallory PRIOR to the 24 expedition ignores the reality of his situation DURING the 24 expedition. Logic, common sense, and Mallory's own responsibility for bringing Irvine, would not have allowed him to just reject Norton's account of his almost fatal ascent using the couloir route. Odell saw them at 12:10 PM. Judging by the evidence found at their camp, it's clear that they left later than they anticipated. For them to have made it to the 3rd step (which was not even called that at the time) at 12:10 is extremely unlikely. By the way, Messner has stated that he did not see any route from the couloir that would lead to the third step. A zig-zag route to the summit a some point invariably includes the couloir. So they would have had to find their way east of the couloir and then up. Now, I do not know if they made it. In all honesty, I would LOVE to see evidence that they did. My point is simply about probabilities. Things were extremely tough that day.

[@jdw6925]

How many pieces of misinformation have you just put out there - I make it 6 minimum.

[@czarcastic1458]

All tangible evidence is east of the first step. Not hard to believe they never made it past that point. Odell changed his story a few times so anything he says is subject but there is a picture of him pointing to east of the first step where he said he saw them. If he took Nortons route he would have ended up on the NW side of the mountain and nowhere near the 3rd step to be seen.

[@ftapon]

I'd like to see that photo. I searched Google images for "odell pointing to everest" and found nothing. Moreover, even if such a photo existed, the camera angle would matter tremendously because the margin of error would increase dramatically if the camera angle was suboptimal. Still, this interview & other evidence make me believe that Mallory probably reached the summit & died on the descent.

[@Garde538]

You cant see the first step from Odell's viewpoint. They were seen just at the third step

[@WellyCoaster]

@@ftapon This was a great interview with Robert thank you. The picture is in a Conrad Anker and Wade Davis presentation called Discovering Mallory & Irvine, it's on the youtube video and at the 40 minute 35 second mark. The photo is very clear where he's pointing, but we don't know if he's pointing east of the first step as a sighting. To me it can only either mean that's where he thought he had sighted them or that it was the route they were taking. When it came to which route they were taking Odell said numerous times it was via the ridge route by "following the crest of the NE shoulder". The couloir route which Norton and Somervell took was much lower down than the crest and direct to the couloir.

[@czarcastic1458]

@@Garde538 You don't know where Odell was when he supposedly saw then if he saw them at all.

[@kenkaplan3654]

@@czarcastic1458 Yes we do. See below,.

[@dmbeaster]

This guy blows all credibility with his ice ax nonsense. Talk about making up stuff.

[@ftapon]

It's unclear what your objection is. Dr. Edwards offered several speculations about the ice ax and said they were speculations. By definition, when you speculate, you make stuff up. There's nothing wrong with that as long as you don't pretend you're stating facts. Dr. Edwards made a clear distinction between facts and speculation when discussing the ice ax.

[@dmbeaster]

@@ftapon Speculations are fruitful when they are grounded in a plausible realism. They are speculations because we lack evidence to decide which plausible realism is the actual event. His speculations are not grounded in a plausible realism. He obviously knows nothing about the use of an ice ax while climbing. If you really care, I can list the remarks that just do not make sense under any scenario. But he really has no basis discussing the subject with such clear ignorance about basic climbing details.

[@ftapon]

@@dmbeaster I completely agree with you that it is hard to imagine a situation where climbers would bring a spare ice ax or that they would purposely leave their ice ax behind. Dr. Edwards was simply trying to come up with a possible explanation as to why the ice ax was found in a place where it could not have just fallen. When they found it, it was standing in a position that look like it was deliberately placed there. So he was trying to come up with an explanation as to why or how it was deliberately placed there since the idea that it fell exactly in that spot is also hard to believe. That's his point. Another explanation is that they were so delirious and screwed up from their lack of oxygen that they lost their sense of judgement, a common occurrence in such conditions. Finally we could just assumed that the ice axe was not found in that precise place and in that precise position and that it was just a misreporting of the facts that had persisted. Feel free to list your reflections.

[@dmbeaster]

@@ftapon The location of the ice ax is pretty certain. When found in 1933, it was recognized as a very important discovery as it had to be from Mallory or Irvine. The speculation at the time was that it marked the location of an accident, as it seemed impossible that anyone would leave it there on purpose. The climber swapped out the ax for his own on the way back down in order to mark the location. The ice ax is a real mystery. We know now from Mallory's location that it could not be the location of a fall. Also, the terrain is not that steep in the area, so its hard to see a major fall happening there. The only remaining plausible scenario is being left there by Irvine in a hypoxic state. Of course, it means that during a subsequent fall, Irvine had nothing for self arrest. What is also weird is that the ice ax is a distance east of the fall line where Mallory was found much lower down. If the fall occurred after leaving the ax, it makes no sense to be further east unless they were wandering off line in the dark (or some other cause to be going the wrong way). If you draw a line from the ice ax to their high camp, the probable locations where Mallory fell are not anywhere near that line. He had moved west away from the camp before falling. It could reflect confusion going down the confusing gullies in that area in the dark or near dark. The length of the ice ax is not critical, though climbers like to have it match their height when the ax is used as a form of support. Modern ice axes are often much shorter. The length at that time was also because the ax part was used to chop into ice or ice/snow to create footholds on steep frozen terrain. The length made it easier to swing the ax for chopping, but there was no fixed length based on the height of a climber. A climber might prefer a certain length, but he could use any reasonable length at the time. Modern crampons did not yet exist (they used those sketchy hobnail boots instead for purchase, although primitive crampons did exist), and no one chops steps much anymore. The point is that differences in length are not that diagnostic of much as of 1924.

[@tomdaly1010]

In Thom Pollard I Trust 🙏🏻… this was well done!

[@snappingbear]

Really, the man who stepped past two dying climbers so he could summit? The first was saved by a British climber who abandoned their attempt to aid them. Pollard also defiled Mallory's body even removing his underwear among other things. He is the last person to ever trust.

[@markpurdy9860]

Tom Pollard has absolutely no credibility none whatsoever!!!!!

[@jacekkozianski711]

​@@snappingbearis that something he does often? Phew yuk!!

[@vitanus]

Ouch I hope you dont mean that. Great sarcasm if you didn´t though

[@marcmans2186]

Edwards does not know how to talk to people

[@DL-cs6fz]

This man has no mountaineering experience; he repeatedly says he Knows nothing. He has no right to write this book then. He’s Ridiculous.

[@ftapon]

@@DL-cs6fz you're right that he repeatedly says that he knows nothing about certain topics where we lack definitive proof or evidence. That is a sign of humility, and of a wise investigator. Sloppy people speculate or make declarations with scant evidence.

[@scorpio4080]

Clearly a smart man but I don't understand how he can give an educated guess on different scenarios of the climb when he has no common understanding of climbing as a skill. This, as he said himself, is out of his field of expertise. Would be like me, an open water diver, giving my perspective on rocket science and the failed Apollo 13 mission.

[@ftapon]

To continue your analogy, let's say you wrote a book on Apollo 13 and rocket science. Would your opinion be worthless?

[@scorpio4080]

@@ftapon Yes. My knowledge of that failed mission begins and ends with the Tom Hanks movie. As for rocket science, I know America had VonBraun (spelling) deeply involved. That's about as far as that goes. Anything else would be pure fiction. My opinion would be meaningless. As for the Mallory story, I want to hear from climbing experts who have reached the top and have lived that life style make an educated guess weather Mallory could have reached the top based on his documented experience, gear used and other facts surrounding the mission. This isn't just an opinion from some random no-body like me or this mathematician. These are experts in the field, the next best people to speak on the topic.

[@michaelgrey7854]

You only succeed if you come down again alive.

[@kirkgray6949]

The summit is half way….mallory failed get over it…

[@TomH2681]

People who die on the way down are still credited with summiting.

[@adamforshaw973]

Messner was a professional mountain climber, Mallory and Irvine were mountain climbing hobbyists in comparison. For someone to simply claim that if messner could do it without oxygen, so could Mallory and Irvine seems a stretch especially for a so called mathematician relying on actual data

[@ftapon]

That is a fair point, but every year, "climbing hobbyists" with less experience than Mallory summit Everest without oxygen.

[@vitanus]

calling Mallory that is an insult. Look it up and apologize, unbelievable. What do you think they did in 1924? Walk up the mountain in a suit? They had less information and worse equipment, which makes their achievement even greater. Mallory was an expert climber, in 1924 just as he would be in 2024.

[@cainestadler9414]

Spoilt a gr8 video referring to so called global warming.

[@ftapon]

@@cainestadler9414 how do explain glacial retreat? Glaciers on Mount Everest are indeed retreating significantly due to climate change. Research indicates that glaciers in the region have shrunk by **13%** over the past 50 years, with some smaller glaciers losing up to **43%** of their surface area since the 1960s[1]. The South Col Glacier, the highest on Everest, has lost approximately **55 meters** of thickness in the last 25 years and is now melting at a rate **80 times faster** than it formed[4][5]. This accelerated melting poses risks for local ecosystems and water supplies for millions[2][4]. Citations: [1] Scientists find extensive glacial retreat in Mount Everest region news.agu.org/press-release/scientists-find-extensive-glacial-retreat-in-mount-everest-region/ [2] Glaciers in Retreat at Mount Everest - John Novis Photography www.johnnovis.com/glaciers_in_retreat_at_mount_everest [3] Mt. Everest's highest glacier is a sentinel for accelerating ice loss www.nature.com/articles/s41612-022-00230-0 [4] Highest glacier on Mt Everest is melting at a rapid pace, a new study ... kathmandupost.com/climate-environment/2022/02/06/highest-glacier-on-mt-everest-is-melting-at-a-rapid-pace-a-new-study-shows [5] Mt. Everest's highest glacier lost 2000 years worth of ice since the 1990s www.livescience.com/mt-everest-highest-glacier-rapid-ice-retreat [6] Six Decades of Glacier Mass Changes around Mt. Everest Are Revealed ... www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590332220305492 [7] Everest's highest glacier has lost 2,000 years of ice in 30 years www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/perpetual-planet-everests-highest-glacier-has-lost-2000-years-of-ice-in-30-years [8] Most glaciers in Mount Everest area will disappear with climate change www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/27/most-glaciers-in-mount-everest-area-will-disappear-with-climate-change-study

[@daniw565]

No

[@sheilabloom6735]

Everest is considered a round-trip. Doesn’t matter if they never descended successfully.

[@surjitpuri4839]

Very correct.After a 200 m dash,a runner dies,would u direct his achievement.

[@danielpunisher2982]

It's a worthless point bc going up is not enough. You need to make it down for it to even count

[@ftapon]

Anatoli Boukreev and his team made the first ascent of the south face of Annapurna I in 1997, but he died in an avalanche during the descent. Would you say his climb doesn't count?

[@kenkaplan3654]

@@ftapon Tracy deals with this argument also.

[@stewartjohnking]

I keep hearing this argument and it makes no sense to me. So Scott didn't reach the South Pole??

[@MakeItSo1111]

Cliche

[@vitanus]

says the boy with a punisher logo as icon ...

[@matshanssen2070]

What an expert.....😂🥴

[@jamiedurkin7755]

What happened to the pic of his wife that mallory was carrying it was not on his body when he was found,is that pic on the summit where mallory said he would put it.

[@ftapon]

I believe in his book, Dr. Edwards says there's no enough evidence to be sure this oft-cited tale is true.

[@roblacitinola866]

Malory made it- Folks should give him his due... Nobody will ever know for sure, ever, why not give his soul the credit when he likely did make it...Everyone is making an assumption, the fact that he even tried it in that time period, is beyond amazing...The Man's tenacity and spirit, should be an inspiration to all of mankind...

[@ftapon]

It's still too early to say, "Nobody will ever know for sure, ever." That's why we're still searching for Irvine's body. Perhaps it has a camera or rocks from the summit that offer irrefutable proof that they reached the summit. Until then, I try not to blindly believe things without evidence.

[@philstevens3821]

They traversed below the second step and possibly up the coulior or the “zig zag” route. Give Michael Tracey’s channel a watch. In my opinion he is a great source of information that he backs up with credible research

[@dukecraig2402]

​@@MA-oj8zk Yep, like everyone else who claims they can prove Mallory and Irvine made it to the top they start out wanting to believe that they did, then they construct whatever kind of narrative and "proof" that they did. Too many experienced climbers have said there's no way they made it, people dismiss the 2nd step and claim "they just went around it", if it was that easy there wouldn't be a permanent ladder on the 2nd step, no one would have bothered with it.

[@kenkaplan3654]

@@MA-oj8zk What *facts* does he leave out? He is beyond thorough. He eviscerates contradictions of others. It's a circumstantial case. From the evidence it is more likely than not they summited. The place where Mallory's body was found is not consistent with an ascent fall due to Odell's citing and the view from where he stood. It IS consistent with a descent in or near dark following the lower ridge line they came from. Mallory was beyond adamant he was not going anywhere near the second step

[@fergalohearga9594]

@@MA-oj8zk Agree totally. To Tracy, it’s his way or the highway.

[@AQ.Gimpalong]

@@MA-oj8zk Concur. The only way Michael Tracy can get them within striking distance of the summit is to invent a "Zig-Zag Route" that places them at the base of the third step in time for Odell to spot them. The "Zig-Zag Route" is also a convenient way to deal with the insurmountability of the 2nd step and, again, get Mallory and Irvine in the right place at the right time. That a "Zig-Zag Route" was not clear to Norton (hence his continued traverse to the couloir) and then was not evident to Wager and Wyn-Harris would seem to indicate that such a route was not obvious and may simply not exist. If a "Zig-Zag Route" exists that could be climbed more easily than the modern "Ridge Route" then why is such a route not in use today? Tallying up the existing evidence that can concretely identify where Mallory and Irvine were on the mountain at one time (ice axe, mitten, O2 bottle, Mallory's body, etc.) leads to the unfulfilling conclusion that no one knows exactly which route they took or what their timeline looked like.

[@SuperEvilMonkee]

@@fergalohearga9594 correct, trouble is his way is clearly evidenced, signposted and analysed, the highway is a dimly lit barely meandering contradictory path. Apologies for the bad analogy