Did Martin Harris actually see the golden plates? Ep. 64

[@purpleboye_]

This channel is criminally underviewed.

[@ltekrah]

Gotta post it around 😋

[@purpleboye_]

@@ltekrah CtrHaha does that on instagram and that's how I found this to begin with

[@jaybrown6810]

And over injected with memes

[@lizzicusmotion587]

Agreed

[@thelatterdayarbiter]

Just because one doesn’t have a formal education doesn’t mean the person is less intelligent.

[@davidsnell2605]

Certainly true.

[@fallerpilot]

That's true, IQ is often misinterpreted.

[@wr_royalty]

i can’t help but think of the South Park song anytime i discuss Martin Harris hahaha but overall, really good video guys! super educational and well researched as always!

[@UdoADHD]

When I hear Martin Harris, I keep thinking of that South Park tune

[@jasonsellers56]

This is the best one of these you've done yet! Thanks so much for making this! 😄

[@juliesteimle3867]

Loved the Studio C reference.

[@Spawn303]

He said he saw with his spiritual eyes, not his actual eyes

[@spitimalamati]

Harris’ expression, something like “I viewed them with my spiritual eyes,” may have context as “imagination” typical of that era. Taken from the novel “Jane Eyre,” “The subjects [her paintings she got ‘out of her head’] had, indeed, risen vividly on my mind. As I saw them with the spiritual eye, before I attempted to embody them ...” (“Jane Eyre” 1847 by C Brontë, chapter XIII). As I recall, Harris’ expression led to many leaving during the Kirkland era (1838).

[@Jeremy.Beutler]

What about John H Gilbert’s statement? “Martin was in the office when I finished setting up the testimony of the three witnesses,-(Harris-Cowdery and Whitmer-) I said to him,-"Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?" Martin looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, "No, I saw them with a spir[i]tual eye."

[@dr33776]

It's inconvenient, of course they won't mention it.

[@TheLucqui]

You really can defend anything with enough effort! I got out with a lot of soul searching and study you can too!

[@karendinkel9040]

YASSS to the national treasure reference 😂

[@greymurdock2]

You’re videos are I educational yet funny! Thanks for sharing and do the research

[@fallerpilot]

Hey guys, I was wondering if you could make a video talking about how modern day science ties in your religion, or something like that? It's nothing that I'm struggling with, but it is something that I see many people do, and is obviously the reason people are skeptical about the church. Also, I'm nearing the time that I'll go on my mission (I turn 18 next year) and I've never been good with words, but I know the topic of science will definitely arise, so hearing that way other people say it would definitely be helpful. Thank you!

[@Presleysixty]

Can you do a video of swords and horses in the Book of Mormon as history days horses and swords weren’t there when Columbus arrived. Please and thank you!

[@outof_obscurity]

What's ironic is the same people who think Joseph Smith hypnotized people into seeing the plates know full well that critics say this about the resurrection. In the movie "the case for Christ" the atheist journalist brings this up to an agnostic professor of psychology. She says to him "group hypnosis and shared hallucinations has never been documented. From our research it's impossible. In fact that would be an even bigger miracle than the resurrection itself." So that means these critics have to be consistent and say if Joseph could do group hallucinations so did Peter and the others... Which falls flat by their same standard.

[@DW-ko4pd]

Ask the Pharisees if Jesus saw what he saw. I'm not comparing Martin Harris to Christ. But Joseph, Martin and others know what they saw and experienced.

[@colesmith8459]

Not even.. SQUIDWARD"S HOUSE. Literally died hahah. Also the story about him switching out the stones was interesting, I never knew that thank you!

[@imoutbye]

The fact all these explanations, justifications and deep research has to be a KZbin channel, should be enough of a sign that it’s BS. This is all so weird.

[@brettmajeske3525]

Well all the research is found from more scholarly organizations, he cites sources. If antagonists can post their critics on you Tube, why not rebuttals?

[@imoutbye]

@@brettmajeske3525 There's plenty out there. I have a life though so I'm personally not going to hunt down this for you personally. There's so much from church history that the church has hidden, and only in the last five years has been open about. I'm 38 and grew up in the chruch, served a mission, tuaght in sunday school, attended YSA, yadda yadda yadda. All the community stuff was good. But until five years ago when things came to light there wasn;t these youtubers trying to defend history that none of us ever learned before. Even with all those mornings at seminary, sundays at church, youth conferences, a mission, serving in the church, personal scripture study and friday nights at YSA. NONE of this stuff was mentioned. Than the church releases the gospel topic essays and the session with elder cook. Furthermore, if this is gods church, than why is their so much mystery and questionable things, and even church leaders today saying past prophets words were them speaking as men and not as prophets in some cases. for example god being cool with black people having the priesthood in 1970's. BTW Joseph F Smith said the day blacks get the priesthood is the day Abel, murdered by his brother cain, has had posterity on another planet. Is that true? Or did Kimbal or whoever it was get revelation, or was it the fact Pres Carter said no tax breaks for religions that discriminate? If it's god's church, why the hell has he allowed so many loose ends, questionable acts, contradiction and hypocrisy? What an idiot he is. It's so bad that two hilarious guys from Colorado made an award winning musical, the book of mormon, mocking the religion. And than we really need mormon apologists to spin all these weird things. I don;t care if this church and its members want to believe all of it. BUT TELL US. DO NOT HIDE THESE IMPORTANT FACTS. Spread the word, tell the missionairies. I actually was taking discussions with the missionairies this year, and they were honest about things, they'd either try to spin it or didn;t even know about it themselves. Teach your kids and the members all of it. not just the parts that sound good.

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@imoutbye Well as I said before, there was nothing in the Gospel topic essay I did not learn in the 80s. None of it was hidden. Not all was talked about much, but none was hidden. There was even an article about Seer Stones with pictures of them in the Ensign in 1986. As for the old tax urban legend, there is no truth to that at. There are still tax exempt organization who ban Black members, like the KKK. The Southern Methodists didn't ordain Blacks until the 80's long after the LDS. FairMormon even filed freedom of information requests. They went through the Carter Presidential Library. They even wrote a letter to Carter himself. Nada, Nothing, Rien. I notice you don't leave a citation for your Joseph F Smith quote. I have heard many people mention it, but so far no one has replied with the source. If you could be so kind as to tell me where you found it I would appreciate it. I understand that you are bitter, and that you feel lied to. Just understand, many members like me have done all those things you mentioned after learning as a teenager everything you thought was hidden.

[@imoutbye]

@@brettmajeske3525 Good for you. I guess you had ALOT of time on your hands. Or not much else going on in life. And access to all the right books. So I guess yes you are right, it wasn;t hidden. It was more like sin of omission. "We just won't talk about all that". I was born early 80's. so sorry but Ensign was a boring magazine for old people to me back then. I was reading MAD magazine and skate mags in the 90's. Why would I go back to Ensigns form the 80's and where would I find a hard copy. C'mon. And I have friends and family, including a parent who spent decades in the church and never heard this stuff. My poor mom, who was a relief society president twice learned this stuff in her 60's and just left. All that time given to this fraud. Here's the thing Brett. Here IS where they hid it. You remember all those videos and paintings of Joseph Smith translating the gold plates? The ones where he sat at a table with the plates, with Oliver on the other side of the table writing. or at another table in the room. Do you remember this? Cause I do. That's what they showed us and the narrative given to us young minds and missionaries, and sunday school teachers. THAT'S NOT HOW IT HAPPENED. Replace those images with him sticking his face in a hat, and oliver on the other side of s sheet or in another room. THAT changes the narrative completely. Furthermore, and this where it is obviously a sham. The seer stones you mentioned, they were used as part of a treasure hunting "business" ran by him, his dad and brother. SEER stones were used by other people for several decades before them for this same purpose. And the seer stones didn't work to find treasure. They told people it could help find it, and when they "found" the location they would dig, and when they didn't find anything they told their customers that spirits under the earth moved the treasure because some ritual or something was not followed. Riiiiight. This same seer stone idea, again used by other people as well, was used as a process to translate gold plates that the we later found out these witnesses saw with their "spiritual eyes" So they did not physically see the gold plates. and And angel took them before any one could see them. Just like Muhammad rode to heaven on a winged horse. This is scratching the surface stuff. It's not just 2, or 5 or 8 things that are so obviously scammy. It's the fact that it's like a rabbit hole. Just like I learned new things over times about what we believed in, I'm gradually learning there's SOOO much. The fact I've spent the last five minutes writing this to debate with yourself, is crazy and a waste of time. But for some reason it needs to be explained. The tax thing is not an urban legend. You seriously think it's just coincidence? That's a huge move to go from blacks with no priesthood to now they can attend the temple and do the work all the white men can do. Big deal in this religion. I doubt Carter said explicitly "Mormons wont get tax break" I read these words from Jospeh F SMith myself on my mission, I had and studied his book. That was 18 years ago and I can;t remember 100% if it was this book. I just remember it being really thick, black cover and full of fun facts. Or maybe it was Fielding. It was a long time ago to me. www.thriftbooks.com/w/gospel-doctrine_joseph-f-smith/441667/item/5572873/?mkwid=%7cdc&pcrid=479710358059&pkw=&pmt=&slid=&plc=&pgrid=114838085482&ptaid=pla-897035582627&gclid=Cj0KCQiAyJOBBhDCARIsAJG2h5enjVSkvVak1Efszz1BLSl7gT6o7ggCqLCNUnQLiVDNUfq9RwVQIggaAvqsEALw_wcB#idiq=5572873&edition=4483936 Yeah I'm bitter. There's a whole lot of people who are bitter. Not just bitter, but traumatized, angry, sad. Broken homes and marriages over learning this stuff and some people cannot accept it. But what's worse, I myself went through sever depression. Suicidal thoughts. And I can connect it directly to my faith in the church because the religion skewed my view of the world, to later find out it wasn't reality. But I consider myself lucky. Utah has the second highest youth suicide rate in America. Why? Sure say it's culture, or it's the people and not the church. The church has altered the way people like your self see the world and reality. And people in the church, especially their kids, don;t understand why they feel like shit all the time. I'm sorry. Either you only learned a few weird things at an impressionable age. And I'll admit, up until my late 20's even, you could've told me anything about the church or history and I myself would've accepted it. If you told me one of these crazy things say once every 6 months or a year, I would've probably accepted it as I had time to digest it. And I personally was more focused on the christ in the church, following his example and not so much in to the nitty gritty of the Mormon history. Whoops. I studied about integrity and good principles to be a good person. Not seer stones and polygamy. big whoops. It's when you put it all together it's clearly a big massive fraud by a man who was shot and killed for this. The man cried "o lord my god" as he fell out of the window. Again, explained as his last testament to his relationship with god. HAHAHAHA. That phrase was the beginning of a phrase free masons use to cry for help from other free masons when in a crisis or danger. He wasn't prepared to die for this. Maybe he thought after other experiences in jail this would be like the others. After he burned down a printing press. the press. He tried to shut up the press and thought he could get away with it. "O Lord my God, is there no help for the widow's son" is likely what he was going for knowing there were free masons in the mob and this was the old boys club cry for help. And oath made to help anyone calling out this phrase. But they knew he tainted and used the free mason rituals for his own fake religion, so of course they wouldn't help him. The man married his friends wives. while they were on their missions some of them. And 14 year old girls, behind his wife's back. You know stuff like this and still can say it's legit from the God of this earth? This is how god would let it go down? for the billions of souls who need to return to him. How? And honestly. I might be conversing with a nutbar. Sorry. You might be nuts and this is a waste of my time. What's worse, you can know all this and tell mormons it's their fault for not knowing this? or it's all those volunteer teachers who didn't teach them this? I smell Utah small town Utah mormon. Or Cardston Alberta. BTW only a third of the 14 million mormons are active. God's gonna be pretty lonely. And you, and people like you, blame the mormons who didn't know this. You don;t blame the church you blame these people. You blame us. And because we're bitter about it it's our fault? I hope to god you don't have kids or grand kids. Likely you do and if they ever leave I feel sorry for them cause you'd be the parent who shuns your kids for not sharing your faith in this religion that can only can be believed based on faith. It has so many characteristics of a cult. meets the BITE model. You study that too in the 80's? God speed, and shit.

[@brettmajeske3525]

​@@imoutbye First I am sorry I didn’t reply to this earlier, You Tube didn’t notify me and I just came across your response. “Good for you. I guess you had ALOT of time on your hands “ I do not understand this comment. I have always been someone who likes to read. I have always had a interest in history in general, those who do not chose to learn history are doomed to repeat it and all that. I have found Church history to be a very engaging topic, and books fairly easy to find. I find it disingenuous to complain one does not know/understand history while at the same time admitting one has no interest in it. If it was not important enough to actively seek out, then why is it important now? “And access to all the right books.” Well let me share how this access came to be. Both my parents were converts to the Church who were born and raised in Michigan. A few years after his Baptism, my father was called as an Elder’s Quorum President, a few years after that he was called as a councilor in the Bishopric. My mother, with no prior teaching experience, was called as a Seminary teacher. Both felt the profound lack of background knowledge. Other than Church Magazines, Manuals, and the Standard Works, they did not have any direct access to other resources here in Michigan. About every month or two my father would travel for work. Whenever he traveled to a city with an LDS Bookstore, he would buy a new book. Mostly this was from the bookstore in Chicago, which did not have a large collection compared to those out west. We did live only 5-6 hours from Kirkland and so once every 2-3 years there would be a youth drip down there, and another opportunity to buy a new book. Later on as an adult the Toronto Temple would be built, and another LDS bookstore nearby. This was my access, bookstores 5-10 hours away. I was only ever to buy 1-2 a year for myself, mostly depending on what my father found interesting. “It was more like sin of omission.” Like I said before, that is on your local teachers, not the Church. There are no professional clergy or Sunday School teachers. What is discussed in local Wards can vary widely. Primary and Sunday School classes were never intended for historical deep dives, being focused on learning and applying the principles of the Gospel. Seminary and Institute are intended for more in depth study, but depending on the specific class and teacher can still vary widely. That is why from the days of Joseph Smith the command has been for personal study. I know for my mother, the amount of material provided by the Church for her to study when preparing to teach Seminary was almost overwhelming. She was shocked however the first time she was able to attend a conference for Seminary teachers at BYU how many other teachers didn’t do the research because they, “didn’t have enough time”. It was provided to them, but many just didn’t read it. “I was born early 80's. so sorry but Ensign was a boring magazine for old people to me back then.” Well that was a choice, wasn’t it? Before the internet, the Ensign was the primary method the Prophet and Apostles had to communicate with the members of the Church. Between 1970 and 2010 there were 6 specific articles that mentioned the Seer Stones, one written by then Elder Nelson was published in 1992. That doesn’t include four General Conference talks. Pictures appeared four times. I understand why a kid wouldn’t be interested, but that is no excuse for your mother and other teachers. During the 80s, 90, and early 2000’s the Ensign contained both the monthly Home Teaching and Visit Teaching messages. The adults in your life who had the responsibility to teach you did not have the excuse of being a kid. Gordon B Hinkley taught in his first General Conference as Prophet that the Ensign was to be studied regularly during the month it was published as any of the Standard Works. The Church Libraries of the time period would be required to keep ten years worth. Many would have 20-30years worth, that could be loaned out to any member. Today the Church’s website has every issue digitised going back to 1970, with the expectation that the rest will be available in the next few years. I am sorry your friends and family ignored the prophetic council to study the magazines and teaching materials provided to them. I still do not understand how that constitutes hiding facts. “You remember all those videos and paintings of Joseph Smith translating the gold plates? The ones where he sat at a table with the plates, with Oliver on the other side of the table writing. or at another table in the room.” Yep. Let me ask you another question. Do you remember the painting of George Washington crossing the Delaware found in almost every American history book? The one with him standing upright with one foot on the bow, just ready to fall into the river if the British didn’t see him first? Artistic license. Anyone you ever rowed a boat would know that. In the case of the Church paintings, most of which were volunteered and not commissions, they are far more accurate then most images found in HIgh School history texts. There are multiple accounts of the translation process, even as there were multiple scribes. They describe multiple methods. Emma claimed the Plates were on the table when she acted as Scribe. Oliver said they were hidden. Emma claimed Joseph spent hours studying the Plates before attempting to Translate. Martin and Oliver make no mention of such study. Emma, Martin, and Oliver described Joseph using the Spectacles or Interpreters. Oliver and the Whitmers also described Joseph as using the Seer Stones. The Whitmers, who were only present at the tailed end of the Translation, are the only ones who do not mention use of the Interpreters. Every detail in those pictures you mention are found in at least one of the accounts. Artistic liberty is taken merging details of several different accounts, but that is what artists do. They were never intended to be taken in the literal fashion you seem to think. They were not photographs. Have you never taken an Art Appreciation class? Then you can blame an inferior secular education as well. “That's what they showed us and the narrative given to us young minds and missionaries, and sunday school teachers.” The narrative has always been, “Translated by the Gift and Power of God.” That is the only phrase used by Joseph Smith, all the other accounts are second hand. Anyone who had read the Pearl of Great Price would have know about the Interpreters or Urim and Thumin being used as part of the process, and they are missing from most of the images you talk about. The Artists want the viewers to see Joseph’s face, nothing deceptive. Besides, whether using spectacles or stones, miraculous translation using the tools provided by God is still, “by the Gift and Power of God.” “Replace those images with him sticking his face in a hat, and oliver on the other side of s sheet or in another room. THAT changes the narrative completely.” Really? Because the official narrative used in Sunday School and Seminary did specifically state that Oliver did not see the Plates until shown to him by the Angel Moroni? Did you even read Joseph Smith History? It is in the Pearl of Great Price. Or the Doctrine and Covenants? If you had been following the council of Prophets and Leaders, both should have been read at least once in HIgh School. Your family and teachers should have been reading them each at least once every four years? You were commanded to study, yet you find this information a shock? The official narrative did not change, you just never bothered to read it. “The seer stones you mentioned, they were used as part of a treasure hunting "business" ran by him, his dad and brother.” For six months earning less than three dollars. So it is less of a miracle when Joseph used a stone he chose, instead of one chosen by the Brother of Jared? Because that is what the Interpreters found in the stone box with the Plates were. Rocks the Brother of Jared choose as tools. Altered by God, but chosen by the Brother of Jared. to be continued...

[@atheistapostate7019]

Yeah ALL saw with Spiritual Eyes! They ALL saw within a VISION and never physically, let’s be HONEST Saints Unscripted!

[@caseykaelin9430]

The eight witnesses saw them rather matter of factly as did Mary Whitmer.

[@caseykaelin9430]

@@gordianknot9595 I Google Stephen Barnetts letter on the Joseph Smith papers and did not see anything about the eight witnesses. Perhaps you could provide a link.

[@caseykaelin9430]

@@gordianknot9595 I'll will keep your reply in mind and if I come across the book I will give it a look. I have read Anderson's book on the three witnesses and David Whitmer said the experience was as real as the chair he was sitting on. He said this on more than one occasion. All three went to their death beds claiming it was true. If We can't believe the three witnesses why believe anything that ever happened in the Bible?

[@caseykaelin9430]

@@gordianknot9595 I will admitt David Whitmer's statement is problematic but he did go to his death bed saying he saw what he said he saw, as did the other witnesses. Who knows maybe someday we can learn the real truth about the angels appearance to the three witnesses as well as Paul's vision on the road to Damascus, or the thief on the cross.

[@caseykaelin9430]

@@gordianknot9595 The flip side of witnesses being unreliable is that many times they are reliable, that is why the courts use them. The eleven witnesses never threw Joseph Smith under the bus even though they had opportunity and reason to do so. The Native Americans of the upper Midwest and souther Canada have DNA in them that did not come over the land bridge. It comes from the Middle East. The book Antiquities of New York State talks about fortifications that are described in the BOM, it also mentions the bone pits. I could go on but I will spare you. Does any of this prove the BOM is true? No but it is evidence.

[@saldomino1639]

Great Stuff Bro !

[@BTLFAEN]

I appreciate the shorter length of the video.

[@Dreammaster695]

3rd hand hostel sources? Never heard of it lol

[@mec77]

Love your videos! Check out the "Saints in the South" podcast on iTunesand iHeart radio. Some members of the Church in south Georgia have started a podcast on the come follow me lessons! Really good!

[@aaronroach1333]

Could 3 guys lie their entire lives?🤔 Uhh yes very easily. If only for the sake of having a story that makes them immensely important 🤣 much easier to believe than the story I'm guessing you believe

[@jeremims9044]

Or immensely criticized.

[@yzwiseyongo]

Morton Harris he had to see it Frfr

[@Topazdemonia]

3:45 what a funny thing for a christian to say

[@Adamis9876]

I don't understand what you're referring to.

[@nephi30]

The record contained in The Book Of Mormon did happen as did the records within the Old and New Testaments.

[@BrendonKing]

And when these "testimonies" become muddied by "well, we DID see them, but not really, it was more a vision, but it felt real", what value do they have?

[@KevlarX2]

Ask someone to explain how they know the Bible is true, or if Jesus Christ was really resurrected from the dead. My guess is they will not be able to "prove it" by any kind of appeal to read it. The only way to know if anything spiritually is true, is by being given the witness of the Holy Ghost. (John 14:26) Having faith is the only way to bring about that spiritual witness. (Hebrews 11:1) Even seeing first hand is not always enough. How many times have we seen in the scriptures, those who have seen miracles, and angels, heard God's voice, seen holy relics, and still fall away? There is only one way to know if Martin Harris and the others saw an Angel, and hefted the gold plates. You have to know by a spiritual witness, The Holy Ghost. That is the value.

[@BrendonKing]

@@KevlarX2 The problem is we're not talking about the existence of God or the veracity of a book. We're talking about the witness of something that PHYSICALLY existed (allegedly) in material form, in the possession of one of their closest acquaintances. Granted, I have a dozen reasons why I don't personally believe in the Book of Mormon, as a ex-mormon myself and as a new, regenerated believer in Christ, but these notions of having to have a spiritual witness to testify that this book even existed in our world is a bit baffling. We have accounts of Emma herself saying that she moved the plates around the house for whatever reason, but yet we have no account of her having to pray to God in order to receive a witness so that she could see the plates to clear the table. There is a distinct contrast between these different claims.

[@KevlarX2]

@@BrendonKing No there is no contrast. It is you who are muddled. Emma may well know that the plates actually existed, but that would not tell her whether they were of God. Only a spiritual witness would. That is my point. Worrying about whether someone seen the plates, is not as important as to knowing that the plates were from Prophets of God, who wrote as they were moved upon by the Spirit.

[@BrendonKing]

@@KevlarX2 furthermore, to use your own argument as proof; we did have physical evidence of Christ's resurrection, an empty tomb. Christ went to his disciples and his apostles and they felt the marks in his palms and in his side, and they were given a witness that their Lord had indeed been risen from the grave. We have their accounts, we have their witnesses. To prove the veracity of the Bible I need only God's word itself: John 17 is explicit: "Santify them (the apostles) in the truth; Your word is truth". Christ tells them to be sanctified in truth, and then even takes it a step further and declares that God's word is truth. I didn't need a vision or a dream to verify them.

[@BrendonKing]

@@KevlarX2 But this is not the argument that Martin Harris, or the gentleman in the video is making. He was asked if he had SEEN the plates and could verify they were indeed real (existent). His response was "YES, but it was through SPIRITUAL EYES", which would lead many to argue if he had seen the plates at all.

[@greymurdock2]

It seemed like Martin was always second guessing himself and his faith in Joseph until he finally witnessed the plates through the angel.. and immediately let go of any remaining doubt when saying “ Tis enough mine eyes have beheld!” Pretty powerful statement from someone who was constantly on the edge of unbelief until that moment

[@jasonm7973]

Answer, YES but really no but MAYBE

[@BrendonKing]

@Magari M I do not need a vision to see something that is tangible. I need my own physical eyes to see something that is physically present in our own world.

[@KevlarX2]

@@BrendonKing Sign seekers throughout the scriptures thought that too. It didn't work out so great for them.

[@BrendonKing]

@@KevlarX2 Again, I don't need the sign. The BoM teaches a Christ and a Gospel contrary to what God has already revealed about Himself in the Old and New Testaments, so there is no point in pursuing it further. But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 4 For if [b]one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully. 2 Corinthians 11: 3-4

[@brendanwilsonvfx5705]

Brendon. Hi! My name's Brendan! The Bible also talks about a flat Earth that by further Revelation or knowledge most Christians will say it's now round by further knowledge. While I do think people in the Bible at times might have had different perspectives On Truth. Just as Abraham And Moses Definitely did. Including Enoch, that Christ qoutes. And the new testiment declare are prophets of that same god. We must remember that living water is continual revelation. The same way we can accept a round earth. Or prophets with different understandings or people having different understandings of things god have said. Alot of which God speaks to us in ways we might understand better with our understanding. Which is why Translation was written in the words of the king James version. Said in doctrine and covanants. And Why Jesus often spoke in Parables. Their is always more to learn. And Jesus Christ is still around, and their are still Prophets of God on the earth. And God is not only the God of the Old World. But also the same God of the New World. The more historians uncover people in the old world doing things the people did in the world in the book of Mormon and things latter day saints follow and practit we are begining to see gods hand all over the earth and the truthfulness and power that God holds. He loves you. He loves me. He even loves his enemy's.

[@BrendonKing]

@@brendanwilsonvfx5705 While I agree with you on most parts, just not on continuing prophetic revelation and that many may have interpreted truth to mean different things, the most important thing we can do is base our understanding in what God has already revealed about ourselves, Himself, and every aspect and concept that connects us to Him. We must be careful, however, not to deviate from the Gospel that has already been established by Christ and those who preceded, lest we cheapen what God has done for us all. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not [n]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [o]crawling creatures. This verse, along with several others, clashes with LDS doctrine about the nature of God and Christ on so many different levels the philosophies of men cannot mingle with scripture anymore, and so new scripture has to be made to establish legitimacy. I pray for you, and for all those who read these comments to come to the God of the Bible, who was and is and is to come. The God of the BIble that teaches that it is by grace you have been saved through faith; and [h]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast as stated in Ephesians 2 8-9.

[@davidamicus9757]

So? It makes no difference what they saw. There was no "Great Apostasy". The Church that Christ established and built upon Peter the Rock still exists today teaching the same doctrines. Read the Church Fathers. Today Peter speaks through Francis. The BoM makes interesting reading but so does the Qu'ran and the Writings of the Baha'i Faith, the Lotus Sutra of Buddhism and other so-called scriptures.

[@timneji]

So what you Said is just „I don‘t care if they saw it I do not belief them“. And it’s ok you should be possible to belief what ever you like. But we should also have the right without get atacked all the time for it.

[@davidamicus9757]

@@timneji I was not attacking anyone; just sharing my beliefs. There was no need for a BoM. I think it makes interesting literature. Somewhat in the epic genre especially the Book of Ether. But JS was no Homer, Virgil or Dante.

[@davidamicus9757]

@L Dante's "Divine Comedy" is my favorite epic poem. I like that the centaurs are guards and not inmates.

[@davidamicus9757]

@L Catholics believe that public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. Therefore no one is required to accept / believe any private revelation like Guadalupe, Lourdes, Fatima etc..

[@davidamicus9757]

@L I had not heard of this one before; I thought it interesting to share. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vision_of_Adamn%C3%A1n