Did my VW Id.3 really lose 10% battery in 2 years?

‪@volkswagen‬ #vwid3 #battery #degradation
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[@lluiscapelladeserran]

Hi Chris, after one year waiting for my ID.3 today I've decided to cancel my reservation. So, no more ID3 for me. I really love your channel, I'm still a supporter, it but now is time to look for other cars. I just want to say that you're doing an amazing job. Thanks for every single moment you have record with your camera, your mails, and your kindness. See you soon!

[@pristak]

This is same with 80kWh battery on my Enyaq. Only 72kWh is available when new (100% -> 0%). However the car has 4% buffer on top and bottom, which brings it to the 77kWh "usable". However to use it, I'd have to regen to 100% when starting and drive 15km+ past 0%. Aviloo also shows 72kWh even though some people are claiming 75kWh new. This has obviously a big impact on calculated degradation.

[@abraxastulammo9940]

But it is a 82 kWh battery?!

[@pristak]

@@abraxastulammo9940 yes, 82kWh gross, 77kWh net, 72kWh usable. Although everyone seems to calculate with 77kWh usable, which based on my experience, is not true. Similar can be the case here with ID3 and Aviloo.

[@rcajavus8141]

@@pristak i heard for my citigo that it is 5% over and 5% under, meaning there is 10 percent battery not shown, lower part below zero is so you can get to charger in emergency and upper is so they can unlock it when battery degrades to avoid droping under factory warranty 70% in what 5 years :D

[@Andreas77N]

I have a VW Id4 1st edition. I got it in April 2021 and it has about 87000km on the odometer and ticking. If you ever travel towards Göteborg in Sweden you can test my car. My plan is to drive my car 180 000km in 36 months. 👍

[@johnmorgan8152]

I've just traded in my ID3 with 50.000 km on it. First Edition and 2 years old. My car was showing 397km on 100% The main reason I lost kilometers was due to VW garage putting on wrong tyres. That made a massive difference, nearly 30km on a full charge.

[@fernestar]

Before the 2.4 "update" the range when charged to 80% was 204 miles, now it shows 180 miles. I drove 100 miles yesterday, and it used 120 VW miles. The battery does have a warranty on it, I will be familiarising myself with the terms and conditions I think!

[@J3nk1ns66]

Interesting as since 2.4 the indicated range is not as good on mine but GOM keeps recalculating as the journey continues, planning on doing 100% charge to see if that helps reset it. On way home from 2.4 update car suggested it had lost 80 miles of range but state of charge was the same

[@fernestar]

@@J3nk1ns66 wow! Thanks for sharing your experience!

[@mba668]

You can never compare calculated km of range! There are too many influencing factors.

[@martijnfranke5506]

A couple of months ago I did some coarse calculation on the battery capacity of my ID3 Pro S on a trip from Italy to the Netherlands and back. My degradation seemed even worse, I seemed to have about 67-68 net kWh's (it's now about 1,5 years, 60.000 km's). The strange thing is though, that I barely seem to have lost any range. I still do more than 500 km's of mixed use (country roads / motorway) on a charge, even at low motorway speed (speedo 110 km/h) it wil do on average 500 km's, as when it was new. Hilly country roads around home in central Italy in summer I still get close to 600 km on a full charge (I mostly charge to 80% only). Could it be that during time and software updates VW have changed something in the way the average consumpion is calculated (e.g. my consumption according to the car seems to have become lower).

[@rockybaldboa8932]

Excellent video well done 😊👌 Such a shame you can not buy this I device in the uk, not sure if there is an alternative for the uk market?

[@ElektromobilTV]

my notes: 1.aviloo has a tolerance of +-3 percent on the certificate. During my aviloo test on a Leaf 24kWh, aviloo showed me a lower number (SOH 74 vs 77 Leaf spy) than Leaf spy. It also showed a lower capacity in kWh. But I trust Leaf spy more, where I can see the number immediately and realistically. 2. first I monitored the net capacity of the MEB platform through the car scanner application. Today I don't quite believe it anymore. The new GTX in the showroom (+22 degrees) showed up to 80kWh. The 6-month-old Enyaq showed only 70kWh at +10. It is not realistic for the degradation to drop so fundamentally. From this I think that your degradation will not be that high and the car probably reacts very much to the temperature and XY other factors. Maybe more than other batteries. Didn't you have 8 percent in some video a year ago? If that were the case, you can see for yourself how the decline slows down. Have you tried asking the VW service for a statement, or their capacity test?

[@tomduke1297]

the first ID software was pretty bad, i would not be surprised if it underreported the consumption or overreported the batterypercentage or something. if any of that changed with the updates between tests it could be a reason for the difference. while the id3 website still says 58kw usable(which might have been accurate at launch), that does not have to be accurate now, those numbers were put there at launch by the marketing department. it is absolutely possible that the software engineers changed that in the meantime. the batterie test thing showing 54kw for 100%, would support this hypothesis.

[@cpfranger]

Thanks for the video, but I feel bad for whoever gets your lease return with all the dc fast charging you to right to 100% lol

[@CCR-ew6ke]

What I’m wondering is how often do you and other Id.3 drivers use the super chargers compared to charging at home using a L2 and sometimes L1 over night especially in the winter months. It seems that would make a difference. I charged my e-Golf mostly with a Level 2 charger. Even with newer battery packs L2 charging is preferable for long lasting battery. But maybe I’m missing something. My car was a 2016 and if I had a new EV I’d still mostly use a L2 and sometimes L1. In the US VW offers free super charging and this only tells me not to buy a used Id.4. So maybe I’m wrong, but back to the original question: How often did you super charge it compared to home charging.

[@pingping7594]

Generally I avoid using any sort of supercharging other than a quick 5-10 minutes top-up using a 50kW charger when on a long trip (which is quite rare). Ideally batteries should not be charged or discharged at more than .5C in order to increase lifespan.

[@unextro]

Would be great to get a reaction from Aviloo re: 58 vs 54 kWh and VW on the whole thing. I can imagine there were adjustments in the firmware updates to the buffer size or how the distance/consumption is measured. Regardless, there's so many factors at play that the simple consumption*distance calculation is too simplistic (it obviously correlates higher consumption with higher degradation) and I'd tend to trust the much more sophisticated Aviloo test. Though both confirm the important message that the degradation is not 7% each year. :)

[@unextro]

@@wolfgangpreier9160 Unfortunately, that's exactly what a lot of headlines said after Chris' last year's test... "ID.3's degradation is 7% a year"

[@steensuurballe4851]

@@wolfgangpreier9160 its normal that ALL EV's (also Tesla) looses capacity the first year or so (abd driving 20000km) and then flattens out. No EV will losse linear 7% pr. year

[@mba668]

@@steensuurballe4851 I can confirm that from my BMW i3 with 100.000km. After first years only minimal degradation.

[@mba668]

@@wolfgangpreier9160 They show you what they want you to show... My Audi A3 Etron had some buffer that was minimized with the years to compensate for possible degradation.

[@dawidszyszko]

This is weird, but my conclusion is that the battery is not 62kwh battery but 58kwh and charging it fully you only have 54kwh in the battery. If you connect brand new car to OBD it shows 58kwh but when you charge it fully the battery contents is 54kwh so 58 - buffer 4kwh.

[@karl-heinzoehling483]

Hi Chris, I can basically confirm your results with my ID.3 as well. Nothing wrong with your results. Because with my ID.3, which is now approx. 35,000 km down, I have approx. 9.5% degradation (average test speed 105 km/h) after 33,000 km. 14 months ago with approx. 16,000 km there was approx. 4.7% degradation (average test speed 90km/h. Determined on the long-distance of SoC 100% to approx. 10%. I would assume that the 58kWh battery when new was only a usable Battery capacity of approx. 56kWh, which makes sense, because normally approx. 10% of the battery is reserved for the upper and lower storage, which we cannot use in normal driving.

[@GHOOGLEMALE]

I believe the battery is supposed to be 62kwh new with 58kwh usable so that ,in theory, has already been accounted for

[@karl-heinzoehling483]

@@GHOOGLEMALE I'm a bit disappointed that the ID.3 is sold with a 58kWh usable battery, but has a maximum of 56kWh when new.

[@GHOOGLEMALE]

@@karl-heinzoehling483 I think if you look at his graph at 11.39 you'll see that when new he calculated it had a capacity of 58.82 so it was ok then

[@karl-heinzoehling483]

@@GHOOGLEMALE I also drive an ID.3 1st Plus and never had the 58kWh. After half a year with approx. 10,000 km, I had approx. 55kWh net battery. Have a look at Björn Nyland and his ID.3 tests. Then you will see a 56kWh battery when new.

[@GHOOGLEMALE]

@@karl-heinzoehling483 ok thanks - I’ll have a look at his site

[@0ooTheMAXXoo0]

Battery degradation happens very quickly at first and then slower and slower until most batteries taper off to never drop below 80% even after millions of miles worth of charges. Whatever imperfect cells are in the pack, first the worst fail, then there are ever fewer cells left that are imperfect to that degree, and so on and on, until only the most perfect cells are left being used by the pack and then there is basically no more degradation...

[@juergenschoepf2885]

Did you ever measure the min and max voltage for the cells via OBD2? Could well be that your battery has the same flaw, just not as extreme, which led to the recall by VW.

[@dawidszyszko]

I've did some research and, it looks like that 62kwh is not 62kwh. It is actually 58 - buffer so 54. car scanner for a brand new car shows 58 kwh as max but when you charge it fully energy content is 54. My car after a year and a half has 54 and when fully charged It has 50kwh of available power.

[@BatteryLife]

Also what car scanner pro reads from the battery is LSO not correct

[@dawidszyszko]

@@BatteryLife and how can you tell it is not correct?

[@BatteryLife]

Because it changes all the time. Up and down.

[@dawidszyszko]

@@BatteryLife but the change is minimal, at least for me a to be honest expected with so many cells in one pack.

[@malakudi]

Mine fully charged showed 51200 and what car scanner pro reports as max is 55100. This is after 26000km and 22 months. But it was 54900 a few weeks ago so I don't really trust this value. At 0% the car does not stop, It still has quite energy to travel some Km, just very slow. So the display SOC is not the real SOC, there are almost 3kwh more after you see 0%. After full stop, there is still the hidden buffer (the difference from 58 to 62 - this can never be used).

[@mba668]

My ID3 is a week younger, has 62.000km. Carscanner app says I have 53950 Wh capacity now. It was very long at 54.000 Wh. So that might be an argument for aviloon's data? I had read the 54 kWh somewhere else, too. And had the same thoughts that you have. 8kWh buffer? Got 2.4 Update today. No change in capacity.

[@dawidszyszko]

it looks like you have 8kwh buffer to me also. new car show 58 but when you fully charge it only has 54 usable power.

[@boerbiet237]

Thanks Chris! How about Testing in summer or in winter with Aviloo? Is there a temperature correction For the battery?

[@mambachaser]

I think all manufacturers should make this parameter easy accessible to everyone.

[@TheWlarsong]

Excellent video. Are you going to get your defective battery cells replaced, how will this affect your degradation tests in the future?

[@BatteryLife]

My battery is not on the list. All cells are fine.

[@apostolpaul4677]

@@BatteryLife where we can find the list?

[@KTPurdy]

I've been surprised now much temperature effects energy storage. It's a noteworthy variable.

[@deurkl]

Maybe the increased the buffer size with one of the updates? Not sure what the point is of the buffer though if it still degrades this much....

[@1975Chinook]

Hi Chris! VW might blame the autobahn system for the battery degradation; Maybe not all kilometers have 1000 meters on deutsche autobahn 😂(after dieselgate you can expect anything). Cheers.

[@gabrielerotondi6240]

I think the indicator of consumption and also the SOC are absolutely not precise in ID3! You should not count on it! They can say just a rough indication.

[@BatteryLife]

But SOC is what you use for driving. If it does not change, it shows 10% less range.

[@gabrielerotondi6240]

@@BatteryLife first of all thank you for your videos.. super beautiful! Back to the topic.. you are right.. but you assume that inaacuracy is in the "same direction". I do not assume that. I assume it is randomly inaccurate (of small but significant percentage). Sometimes it happens that I park my ID3 and after some hours the SOC is 1% more (increased!). And I guess that the consuption indicator under-estimates or over-estimate depending on the driving conditions (more often underestimates). That could be the reason why you have different results at different speed and different road conditions. For exemple, in my experience, I registered huge underestimation in my ID3 when I drive a lot in D mode and frequently release the accelerator pedal leaving the car to slowly decrease the speed for 500m or 1 km. As a result of inaccurancies divided by inaccurancies, I think that one should accept that these estimates are +-3%.. wich is almost in line with Aviloo. You can guess a general trend but OBD has a lot of data to count on in order to reduce inaccuracy.

[@barryw9473]

I now have 75,000 Km on my 2017 e-Golf and have measured about 9% degradation. Do you keep pack at 100% a lot? Do you notice the range loss in everyday driving?

[@K4D0R]

Wow 😮 I have the 60kw battery pack (swear ✋) 1 year old and I usually charge at 80% autonomy given: up to 440km We have very different drive habits…

[@BatteryLife]

Range is displayed with the driving style. That is not battery capacity representative

[@Lemming1970]

If Aviloo recon you started with 54kwh usable, is it not that last year's drop of 7.91% (3.91% if calculated from 54kwh) is wrong not the 2.69% this year?

[@718YellowSubmarine]

It would be interesting to see the results from more vehicles from the MEB platform. Maybe the cost-cutting we see in the interior is not the only area VW cuts corners...

[@reneh.8817]

@@wolfgangpreier9160 Of course they are! The cells are made by LG and are quality checked and assembled by VW to battery packs.

[@718YellowSubmarine]

Interesting article on this subject in Autocar UK magazine from sept 28th "if 80% is deemed to be the end of a vehicle's life in operational terms, a 10% reduction in capacity represents half a vehicle's life" Glp!!

[@simonstafrace7771]

Hi can you do a battery degradation test on an ID4 I am really curious if their is a simlarity.

[@BatteryLife]

I will try

[@simonstafrace7771]

@@BatteryLife Thank you since i have one and would love to have an idea

[@calbert6810]

My Tesla lost 10% in a couple of month (by 10000km). Only charged it to 80-90%

[@nakfan]

Love the Music…

[@jho3690]

Hi did you also check the bms with car scanner? HV battery energie content. My id3 1st 2y old with 114k reports only 49,7 kWh and my 90kmph test was 50,7 kWh. The difference has probably to do with regeneration when breaking.

[@BatteryLife]

That is not an accurate reading. It is what the battery wants to tell you.

[@digglerdiggler]

Dumb question, is power cost per km still as it was when new, or do you still charge as much power as when it was new but only yield (approx. 10%) less driving distance? pS. I now kw/h prices vary, but if they were the same as 1 or 2 years ago..

[@BatteryLife]

Sorry, don't understand your question.

[@KokoReko2]

Can you read from the car (obd) how many times it was fast chargered or how many kW from fast charging?

[@BatteryLife]

No, but tronity tells me 68% AC

[@kaesekuchenonthego]

Habe mir deinen 90er Test angeschaut, als dein Wagen neu war. Knapp 56 kWh waren dort volle Nettokapazität. Mit underreporting des ID bzgl. der Kilometer eher 55 ish kWh. Damit sind es jetzt maximal 7% Degradation, wenn du aktuell 52 kWh raus ziehen kannst. 421 km gefahren. 12,9 kWh/100 km. 96% SOC verwendet. 1% under reporting error = 12,77 kWh. 12,77 x 4,21 = 53,7 kWh 53,7/0,96 = 55,9 kWh = 100-0% als dein Auto 1000 km auf der Uhr hatte. Es gibt keinen ID.3 mit 58 kWh nutzbar. In keinem einzigen YT-Video. Alle Tester liegen bei 54-55 kWh wirklich nutzbar. Die Batterietestfirma mit A gibt gar 54 kWh werksneu an. Und die haben tausende Realdaten in ihrer Datenbank.

[@BatteryLife]

Checked my results from 2020/2021/2022 again and the numbers in the video are correct. I am not saying they are extremely accurate, but it is done with real driving and it shows less capacity (range) The only thing different in the tests is the weather. Maybe the difference between 28°C weather and 13°C weather is increasing the battery internal resistance up to have more capacity loss that is not shown on the tripmeter

[@kaesekuchenonthego]

@@BatteryLife Die Daten habe ich aus deinem Video.

[@dominikzinke4493]

Beim neu Test mit 90km/h war es bei sommerlichen Temperaturen am Vormittag. Am gleichen Tag mit 130 km/h bei 25°C war es sogar 57,5 kWh. Die Betteriekapazität ist also deutlich Temp. abhängig. Die Ergenisse bei deutlich niedrigeren Temperaturen sind überhaupt nicht vergleichbar. Die Degradation von Chris ist so viel schlechter

[@pebh]

​@@BatteryLife that's precisely what I was thinking! In cold weather, not only we need to spend more energy in heating, but the battery chemistry is not very "comfortable", so you'll have less capacity available! Besides, looking at your calculations, you only lost less than 2% from last year. First year is effectively the worst on degradation.

[@steensuurballe4851]

My ID.3 58 kWh is 2 years old, 42000Km mostly slow charged (25% fast charging ) , degradation is 7%

[@DominikDebef]

58:54kwh - when IDs shows 0% they didn't reach bottom buffer, but you can use another 3-4kwh instead. That's why you can make 30kms under zero. Maybe here is the answer.

[@duarteolival4177]

For less battery degradation I would advice to use the car, when possible, between 80% and 20%, you will have 60% of the battery which is plenty for normal use most of the times while the battery health almost doubles. One should have a big battery in order to take plenty kilometres of the 60%. Also avoid the fast charging, slow charging is better. Of course this is the ideal, no for everyone.

[@MrPomse]

Thanks for the nice video. If you charge to 100% often and let the car stay idle for many hours or days with 100% I have read that this will degrade the battery much faster than if you only charge to 80%. Also if you often do fast charging it will degrade the battery faster I think.

[@zerotoninemusic5957]

Did you have the same amount of devices that you charge while driving over the years or more? 😊

[@BatteryLife]

Devices?

[@zerotoninemusic5957]

@@BatteryLife yes, phone, gopro, mic, laptop etc.

[@frankschaubli4155]

@@zerotoninemusic5957 if you are not talking about microwaves or hair dryers its totally negligible

[@frijevc]

I think 4kwh is beyond zero as a reserve. 0 - 100% is actually ~54kwh. Those 4kw from full capacity 62kwh you will never be able to use, because its for battery safety.

[@gorkaezker7867]

Have you measured the SoH with car scanner? Is the same degradation as the aviloo?

[@BatteryLife]

Car scanner shows a different capacity all the time. There is no read out for SOH

[@gorkaezker7867]

@@BatteryLife "Total energy content of the traction battery" i measure every weeks and it doesn't change a lot,..in my case, 77 kw, the first month showed 77600 wh, one year later and 25k kilometers, shows 72900 wh, 5.8% degradation,..

[@troypoynter8484]

Both calculations are wrong I think. I can see Aviloo’s failure as they presume the 4kWh buffer from below 0% is constant rather than part of the degradation. For your tests I can presume a firmware update may have added the “4kWh buffer” below zero after your first test.

[@michaelenglund]

Why did u do the test under worse weather conditions? As I understand it, colder weather doesnt let the batterys full capacity go to propulsion. I suggest you talk to Björn Nyland about this. (See his youtube channel) He has done this with many car models.

[@alimac1157]

What battery does my key for id3 fit

[@BatteryLife]

I made a key battery change video

[@KTPurdy]

great loggin of ID.3 battery performance.

[@matthiasmuller5173]

Two weeks ago I tried the same with my e-tron. Driven down from 100% to 0% (3km remaining) and the result after 35.000km is a 4% degradation. But I do not exactly know how the BMS is splitting the capacity between usable and security capacity. I have heard Audi reseves 10% capacity as buffer. Do you know the VW strategy?

[@geivnv]

Hi Mathias, do you possibly know where the battery of your car is produced? Is it the same chinese battery as on the ID.4/5?

[@matthiasmuller5173]

@@geivnv In my Audi is a very different type of battery, it should be an Samsung SDI prismatic celltype

[@kevinn1158]

Can VW run a diagnostic on the battery for you? Driving conditions can change so much. Tires, wind, temperature, etc etc. Who knows maybe there's a failing cell or something impacting results.

[@craigandrew]

Heres a car you could do a honest reveiw on. the new mg 4 long range,👍👍👍

[@BatteryLife]

Trying it!

[@devonbikefilms]

It’s not weird if you assume the software is hiding real loss over the first period of ownership by using a bit of the upper buffer until it can’t so the later drop is larger. Goodness me of course we can’t think like that about the company that bought you diesel gate, so any other suggestions?😉

[@malakudi]

Your 2020 measurement is 100-4% and not 100-5. Yes it showed 5% when you parked but 4% on the headup display and seconds later infotainment also showed 4% - probably infotainment updates in higher interval and not realtime. So it is 100-4 for sure. Also, calculation of Wh should be done with the km shown in infotainment, because that is what the computer uses to show kwh/100km. Computer has the internal consumption in Wh which devides with the Km counted so that is the correct value to use. So correct values should be 421/96*100=438,54km * 129 = 56571,66 Wh at 2020. 2021 is 52645 (93,06% of 2020) and 2022 is 51228 (90,55% of 2020). The difference with Aviloo is because it takes as max 54000 Wh. But as shown, your max for 2020 was 56571,66. Also Aviloo counted 50260 Wh while you counted 51228. edit: Also want to add that at 0% car does not stop. It still has quite energy to travel some Km, just very slow. So the display SOC is not the real SOC, there are almost 3kwh more after you see 0%. After full stop, there is still the hidden buffer (the difference from 58 to 62 - this can never be used).

[@theovincken5939]

What you maybe did wrong is to charge the battery many times to 100%. In the Li-ion batteries is not only lithium but also cobalt and nickel and if I understand well this batteries are not so strong. Charging the battery to 100% and discharging to almost zere is bad and gives degradation. The Li-ion battery feels most happy if it's half full but it's okay if you use it between 20 and 80%, it's the same with the battery of a phone. The new LFP (lithium iron phosfate) batteries are much stronger, so strong that you can charge them to 100% and drive to zero. Tesla is using this battery in the standard range and also MG is using the LPF battery in the standard range of the 2022 model. The LPF battery has a lower energy density so for the long range models they still need the Li-ion battery with cobalt and nickel.

[@briangriffiths114]

All points very well made as my Fiat 500e owners' handbook has the following warning; "Using "Fast Charge - Mode 4" can accelerate the battery degradation process. If fast charging is not required, standard (AC) charging is always preferred. This maximises battery life by ensuring the best performance of the car over time." Therefore, I have never used a rapid charger and only charge at home but I accept that others are not so fortunate.

[@theovincken5939]

@@briangriffiths114 Yes, I forgot to say that fast charging is also not so good for the battery

[@renebergqvist599]

Hmmm I should probably test mine (95000 km). But my wife uses it every day. I dont believe it has had any drastic degradation.

[@lp3860]

I'm curious why the difference is so big to other youtubers? Is it the fast charging from near zero to 100 so often?

[@stevezodiac491]

I fill up my diesel from empty to full every time and so far after 14 years, it has suffered no degredation and still has a range of 650 miles ? Does this indicate that Lithium ion batteries are not fit for purpose in cars ?

[@logant6490]

@@stevezodiac491 it indicates you're throwing out huge quantities of co2 and other pollutants.

[@jom309]

@@stevezodiac491 Maybe it's related to your purpose more than the drivetrain tech in your vehicle.

[@rklauco]

I find it reasonable - you've driven 40k km - 3-3.5 times usual yearly drive for "regular" people. That comes back to around 3% degradation per year - does not seem horrible to me. Let's see how the degradation trend will go after 5-6 "normal-person" use - so probably one more year for you :D

[@barryw9473]

Did you ask Aviloo why theyn say 54 kWh is new net capacity while VW says 58 kWh?

[@reneh.8817]

I think the 54 kWh is without under-zero buffer, just 100-0%.

[@barryw9473]

@@reneh.8817 ok. The term “net capacity” is what the car will allow to be used. There is always a buffer that is not accessible to protect the cells.

[@reneh.8817]

@@barryw9473 Exactly, 4-5 kWh top buffer, not at all usable, only if manufacturer increases the cut-off voltage at 100% to compensate for degradation. Then 3-4 kWh below-zero buffer, usable, but not recommended. ;)

[@barryw9473]

@@reneh.8817 is there any proof that VW, a very conservative company, or any other brand, does this?

[@reneh.8817]

@@barryw9473 I don't think so. It would be possible, hence the speculation. But there's a reason to limit the voltage at 4,15 V.

[@javiTests]

There are so many variables that it's very difficult to calculate precisely the degradation. Outdoor temperature, weather conditions, diameter of the tyre, version of the software (they can change the way the calculate things)... All of those are going to impact the consumption that the car is showing, hence the degradation calculation is not going to be very exact. I think even trying to get the conditions as similar as possible from one test to the next, the degradation calculated could be off...

[@stevezodiac491]

My leaf came new with 12 battery capacity bars, it is on 9 now after 6 years and the average range loss of 25%, on several long journeys averaged, reflected this loss. lithium ion batteries are not the answer. Either air cooled or liquid cooled on cheaper electric cars, they degrade too fast, giving the cars a short useful range lifespan.

[@0hypnotoad0]

@@stevezodiac491 Cheaper EVs should really be using LFP, european and north american manufacturers have been slow to adopt it, though. It's cheaper, doesn't have cobalt, and basically doesn't degrade even when charged to 100%. The Chinese also don't have a lockdown on the patents anymore, last one expires this year. Li-ion chemistry should just be reserved for high performance/luxury cars that have enormous ranges.

[@RedBatteryHead]

Weird. 58kWh is supposed to be nett, right?! Mabe it stabilazes for next year?

[@mr.wizeguy8995]

I would like to know how you have charged your car. Meaning how much fast charging and home charging roughly in %.

[@BatteryLife]

68 % AC

[@Bergsteiger29030]

My experience is that i can almost add 2 kWh per 100km to the displayed value in my ID.3 for the real consumption! So are those 143Wh/km the real consumption? I don´t think so!

[@infinityNmore]

Hello, I’m curious what loss is considered normal after 50000km or 100000km? And I imagine it depends on the battery technology and cooling system. Has anyone ever compared battery degradation between makers and models?

[@stighaaland5357]

Teslabjorn has tested different models. Leaf,Kia, Golf, Tesla etc

[@8bitbender495]

I find it very, very worrying, it's only 2 years and you're selling the car before the warranty, so the used market won't be particularly fun..

[@BatteryLife]

I am not selling it. I am leasing until September 2023

[@shemmo]

should we be worried?

[@TassieEV]

Well Bjorn has indicated lots of DC fast charging can kill the battery more and maybe you do more DC charging than say someone else who barely does any. Personally I would think the Aviloo test is more accurate.

[@royabbs7377]

I thought this was fairly normal for a lithium ion battery... The first two years see the largest degradation, after that the rate of decline slows considerably.

[@marcg1686]

My 40kwh Leaf 03/2018 has 40000km on the odometer. According to Leafspy SoH is 91.3%. I only fastcharge on longer Autobahn trips. The rest of time 6kw charging at work. I don't really worry about degradation.

[@stevezodiac491]

you will worry, my 30 kwhr leaf has lost 25% in 6 years and getting worse all the time.

[@marcg1686]

@@stevezodiac491 Afaik Nissan changed the chemistry for the 40kwh battery. There's a Japanese YTer who regularly posts updates about his 40kwh Leaf. At 232000km his battery's SoH was 82%. Over half of the charge cycles have been Chademo charging. Not bad for a battery without any active cooling.

[@stevezodiac491]

​​​@@marcg1686It is bad, all li ion batteries degrade over time and cycles. You can't make excuses for a vehicle losing capacity. Don't fill it above 80 % it degrades too fast, don't empty it beyond 20% it degrades too fast and by the way, the middle bit degrades with time and cycles anyway. Li ion is absolutely not fit for purpose. I also have a diesel merc, at 14 years old and it still does 650 miles range and 51 mpg on a run. We are being conned into using a backward step, inferior product to replace logistically better technology.

[@michaellippmann4474]

@@stevezodiac491If you are so unhappy get rid of the Leaf and move on already....geez...quit whining. Mike 🇨🇦

[@manuelg8050]

The tires didn't change in those two years? Maybe the degredation of the tires are responsible for the different results. Do you check the tirepressure befor every test? Difference there can also cause different results.

[@BatteryLife]

It should change the consumption, but not the capacity.

[@GHOOGLEMALE]

Would it be fair to say you would also need to take wind speed into account, its not a constant and on a lengthy journey could easily change (even when you do both runs, in both directions the wind is not the same). Tyre pressures and possibly sticking calipers? Pushig it I know but possible. A better test (no, more accurate I mean) would be to compare on a dyno to take some of the variables out of it like overtaking procedures. 10% is a lot but the initial year at 7% hopefully would be the biggest hit - if 3% per year thereafter happened then that would be acceptable

[@BatteryLife]

All those factors should reflect in the consumption, not the battery capacity.

[@GHOOGLEMALE]

@@BatteryLife Mmm - Charger system losses? Is that affected by transfer speed, outside temp, battery temp - a few % here and there is all you are looking for and as they don't stack up it has to be something. Obvs the tests are not like for like (charger/temps/other variables) - is there a way of applying a high rate discharge test without the variables, like an indoor dyno or leaving the heating on for several hours and measuring that drop?

[@Scrap-press]

Important is the numerator. You get roughly 50 kwh out of your battery. Nonetheless, I also think your soh is the right one.

[@viggenras1]

do you charge your car to 100% often? i have just gotten my new EV and i have set it to 80% to save the battery and also i don`t need the full range so for me 80% is more then enough.

[@BatteryLife]

Very often

[@viggenras1]

@@BatteryLife I am not sure how harmful it is to charge to 100% but if it is as you say and you do it very often i am pretty sure you found the main reason for your big battery degradation. so now i know not to fully charge my car unless i really have to.

[@0hypnotoad0]

​@@viggenras1 It tends to be quite destructive. The EV manufacturers are quite tight-lipped about exactly how destructive, but tests on individual cylindrical cells show that depth of discharge makes a very dramatic effect on degradation. Recommended to not charge beyond 80% unless you really need the extra range for a "there-and-back" type of day trip.

[@Mekuso8]

Just remember, if you lost 10% over two years, that doesn't mean you'll lose another 10% in the next two years. They typically degrade more in the beginning and then stabilize. Only losing 10% throughout the entire lifespan on a Li-ion battery isn't uncommon if you take care of it.

[@Lucas-wp2ph]

This is true. A wolksvagen usually is scrap metal after 5 years and their batteries are designed the same way.

[@Lewis_Standing]

I think they actually lose capacity exponentially, as there's more surface area on the dendrites to precipitate more lithium on to

[@Lewis_Standing]

I think they actually lose capacity exponentially, as there's more surface area on the dendrites to precipitate more lithium on to

[@gremlin60]

i had a citroen c-zero. lost 20% in 10 years so that is good

[@fs0088]

Irgendwann wird jeder mal verstehen, daß ein Akku in einem Auto nicht länger halten kann als in einem Rasierer oder in einem Laptop. Und dann wird der E-Auto Hype schnell zu Ende sein, so wie alle anderen Hypes auch.

[@steckmajster]

If you read the scientific papers all that great charging speed comes at a cost of reduced lifespan. One should not fast charge daily and excessively but use it for the occasional long distance trip and you’ll get more years out of your battery 🔋

[@stdwanze1]

My ID.3 reported 54.95 kwh new over obd and 54.75 now (40tkm). to my understandinf 100-0% is always only 54 kwh. So degradation should be near to zero in the fleet.

[@BatteryLife]

I doubt that. VW measured my car last year November at 8% degradation.

[@stdwanze1]

@@BatteryLife then my car started with 4 kWh less

[@lusiabundgaard1913]

As fare as i can se on the internet ,all electric cars loses battery energy during the years,if you'res 10% is more than the average is hard to tell,,i have also read that the battery can have a fail ,,i have read that if you buy a used electric car you should make a battery test to se if the battery has lost more energy than normal,, so perhaps you should make a test perhaps your battery had a fail

[@gzcwnk]

You have 10.3% less battery, but maybe not 10.3% less range. As in my Leaf i have learned to drive it better so I have gone from 7.1km/7.2kwh to 7.4/7.5km/kwh.

[@johnmanderson2060]

The rule of thumb for LNMC battery is 30% of degradation every 10 years.

[@lunarshteve]

5% a year loss sounds about about right for a lithium ion battery so I wouldnt worry

[@timwoitke4286]

Also ich finde den Test nicht aussagekräftig. Professionell wäre es wenn du die Batterie richtig auslesen lassen würdest. Wie es Zb vom adac angeboten wird. Alles andere ist viel dem Zufall geschuldet.

[@Watt_Ihr_Volt]

hm looks like you had 4kWh less than you should from the beginning... bad. dont many ID3 have damaged cells and are part of a big recall? is that part of your problem? that would also mean that younnever had the 4kWh that you calculated as degradation loss. and thus Aviloo would be right because you cannot degrade what did not work from the beginning. but 4kWh of broken battery cells from the start is unacceptable. is that not then part of the recall and should give you a brand new battery pack? 6-7% on 41000km seems sort of ok, esp if you went a lot to 100% , discharged to 0% and used a lot DC chsrging (I guesd)

[@catmanscarchannel]

What I think is wrong is that the first run when new have to much kWh.

[@BatteryLife]

But that is what the numbers were. Km, consumption, SOC.

[@bigicar8007]

more than my iPhone which has been charged almost every day in the last 2 years. :O

[@MURRYCHOOCK]

seems frustrating. Driving slow on the highway and thinking allways at battery range and how to spare it while thermic cars are passing at normal speed might bring some anxiety... Future sounds bad. I know we have to be rational and energy sober. it's just a remark

[@BatteryLife]

you don't have to drive slow. I did that to test something here.

[@artokiiskinen1058]

Similar degradation to my Tesla model 3 with 145000km

[@reneh.8817]

@@wolfgangpreier9160 Do you use ScanMyTesla?

[@reneh.8817]

@@wolfgangpreier9160 Have both cars the same battery / generation? For MY 2022, Tesla uses a newer generation of the 2170 cells from LG, named 5L vs. old 5G. Comes with +4 kWh. I think 2022 Model 3 should have the same. Mine had 78,8 kWh net usable incl. 0-buffer, so 75 kWh net usable from 100-0%. I am down to around 73,5 kWh usable at the moment after lots of DC charging during Norway trip.

[@reneh.8817]

@@wolfgangpreier9160 With Tesla it's quite easy to determine "degradation" by reading the range after charged to 100%, since the consumption factor is stable (as long as Tesla does not change this with SW update :)

[@alexfoli9906]

it's a good news !!! 4 years 25 % etc.......🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😆

[@peterdelage6759]

Luckily It is not your car but a leased car😅

[@pascaldeprez4040]

To much fast charging

[@reneh.8817]

You ruined your car, Chris! I doubt whether VW will accept it when you return the lease. 😂

[@tomquimby8669]

So second hand buyers should expect a 25% loss of battery capacity after 5 years so expected range 332km for a car costing 16k euro which is enough for city car.

[@reneh.8817]

No, degradation is not linear. Most of the degradation occurs in the first months or first year, then it settles to 1-2% per year.

[@bf6686]

Do not use super charger it kills your battery.

[@stevezodiac491]

I can quite believe 10% or more capacity loss in 2 years. My 30 kwhr Nissan leaf Teckna 6kw charger lost 25 % in 6 years and only 30 k miles. Lithium ion batteries are not the answer and are not a good replacement for what is already on the road driven by the masses. I also have a 14 year old Mercedes 2.2 litre e class diesel. It still gets 51 mpg on a run and still has a range of 650 miles brimmed to empty. I will not be buying another electric car, they are not up to the job long term. One thing that is apparent, is that it does not seem to matter much, having a proper liquid cooled battery management system on cheaper electric cars, to aid battery longevity. It seems both air and liquid cooling are both rubbish in preventing battery degredation and not worthy of my hard earned money in the future. I will stick with diesel for future vehicle purchases, until I am forced to do otherwise. My leaf now is just tethered to my home charger range, the only place it is any good, until it dies and is scrapped.

[@Rick-ib3cj]

Yea keep buying them feed the rich

[@GavinKacavenda]

The issue is you brought a vw lol. Dieselgate needs to be renamed. 👍🏻

[@14energy]

Tesla is the way to go

[@zilboubmalyzayatsky5466]

I try the ID - the worst EV for me OMG zero performance et ugly UI /SOFTWARE slower than my iPad 1 - just a nice design - but very bad car

[@rp9674]

10% sounds normal for a 10 year old car

[@clipsonplextorfield3230]

Amazing, within 5 - 6 years these cheap cars wil just make it to the end of the street.

[@willemvandoesselare7959]

It's way to early to buy a EV .

[@reneh.8817]

at least from VW 😂