Did Oxford ruin Britain? With Toby Young and Simon Kuper | SpectatorTV

[@mickhurley7305]

Anyone watching this keep in mind, Simon has renounced his own native citizenship to take up citizenship of France. A man who has rejected all that created what he was and now adheres to some idyllic Euro-centric Francophile. Meanwhile he rails against Oxford influence in British politics yet has embraced with 2 welcoming arms the influence of the Science PO institute in France which has given seven recent French presidents, 13 French prime ministers, 12 foreign heads of state or government, and six of the CEO's of France's largest companies. Plus ils perdent plus ils se plaignent.

[@loriblue7768]

Spot on 😂🤣😂🤣

[@martynspooner5822]

Well said.

[@seniorslaphead8336]

Well he's found his place, then. "All the worst ideas in history were French" - David Starkey.

[@Lolalai]

Am I missing something? Did he actually say that he approves of Science Po in this talk? France like the UK is not only its universities, there are many other aspects of the country and society than that, which he must have seen before he took up citizenship. Personally, I have lived in France and I must say it does have an ability to wow you; I get where Simon is coming from.

[@simonsmatthew]

You do not have to renounce UK citizenship to take on French citizenship as Johnson's father knows.

[@bobbugwithoneeyeskingiskin8974]

My God… a discussion without someone calling the other a bad person!!!

[@TomRelubbus]

All the time I was watching this, I was wondering if all three of them collectively could change a lightbulb! Although I disagree that it was a few ex-Oxford graduates who swung Brexit. The views of Boris etc, weren't even known when the UK electorate were electing all those UKIP MEPs to Brussels. And, apart from being a vote against Brussels, Brexit was also a vote against the status quo ex-Oxford politicians, who've tended to be so pro-EU

[@guygumbrell2958]

That's the whole point. How did Boris Johnson - who by all accounts was indifferent to the Brexit issue - come to hijack the Brexit stage? His views were unknown because he didn't have any but was savvy enough to see that he could find his 'great cause' in Brexit to make his claim for power.

[@joesoy9185]

Boris Johnson had the advantage of honing his rhetorical skills at both Eaton and Oxford, University, yet at the despatch box, he is incapable of stringing a whole sentence together.

[@matthewsmith908]

This is one of those bonkers things that people claim about Johnson, that he has such great debate skills. I've yet to see them, instead it's pepper pig, waffle and trying to get thanks for claiming falsely that old people can ride the bus all day due to him

[@redemrys5342]

Johnson? Oxford debating skills? Give me 'Elsie Tanner' and the Rovers Return any day!

[@Lolalai]

Yes, at this point, it is all myth-making. There used to be a time when going to university was a big deal - it's not anymore - knowledge and information are widely available to 'the masses'. However, they need to keep on pulling a wool over people's eyes to justify their existence in the 21st century. What Simon said, Oxford is known for its research, it should therefore be turned into a 'Research Centre' specialising in postgraduate studies.

[@Lolalai]

@Bernard sweetie, in what way is this connected to what is being discussed? Or maybe you are just showing off or fishing for a publisher?

[@davidrenton]

all 3 missed the point, Oxbridge is about elitism . It shouldn't be class elitism but intellectual ability. The Speaker would end up diluting it, the standard response from Oxbridge should be no, you need to be special, not everyone is suitable for what should be the premier and most comprehensive education.

[@METALFREAK03]

And not just oxbridge neither. All of those Russell Group universities should be. Even though, there isn't anything "special" now about higher education. Used to be.

[@davidrenton]

@@METALFREAK03 I saw it in the 80's my Brother who is 3 years older, maybe 15% of his year went to Uni, by my time, it was probably 40%, and I can tell you our year was definitely not smarter.

[@robanks3895]

I'm half way through Chums and it is very enjoyable and witty.

[@landsea7332]

Think its important to keep in mind that the Brexit referendum had the largest voter turn out in UK history. The 2019 General Election was a confirmation by UK Citizens that they wanted Brexit . Brexit was a victory for democracy. . The very fact that there are numerous media organizations , still whining about Brexit , clearly spells out this was about corporate globalization and money .

[@mostevil1082]

I think this discussion is a demonstration of exactly what Simon hints at early on. An intellectual class being created that's largely scientifically/quantitatively illiterate. The utopia both seem to agree on seems to be one where intelligent, non privately educated kids go to study arts and politics at oxford. As an engineer it's rather sad to see and explains a lot of the clownary we're seeing in media and politcs.

[@davidrenton]

as a fellow engineer , I agree, I'm not talking all scientists, engineers have to be in every position, but instead what do we get Lawyers and Journalists. We used to have words about those people and it was basically they weren't the brightest (esp. the Journos), so to run a nation nearly exclusively from those fields , well you get what you get.

[@landsea7332]

Reasons why UK Citizens voted for and against Brexit are incredibly varied and complex . Interesting how the " The Square Mile " ( The City of London Corporation ) is rarely if ever mentioned . This is one of the financial capitals of the world , with many international investment banks all around the LSE , which is one block north of St. Paul's . Brexit has caused great uncertainty as to what will happen to the financial power of these investments banks. Its pretty safe to say that the banksters are against Brexit . Particular media organizations have certainly given themselves away , that they are in bed with the banksters , when they have spread all sorts of fear about Brexit.

[@monkeytrousers6180]

Chattering class windbaggery.

[@MrDrbld]

Well, they have 'Professor' Tariq Ramadan, a “towering intellect” , “leading Islamic scholar.” 2000, TIME Magazine's “one of the seven most important religious innovators” of the 21st century.... one of the “100 Most Influential People in the World Today.” Foreign Policy magazine listed Ramadan one of the “100 top global thinkers” in 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2012, he who was showered with invitations to speak around the world on “Islam and ethics.” ... TED Talks, speaking throughout Europe and N. America, seductive, about the misplaced fears of Islam, and of Muslims, in the West... What could go wrong?

[@WestfaliaStuff]

The answer is "what is whinging".

[@simonsmatthew]

Johnson did not have an agenda for the country. His motives were purely opportunistic when he 'agonised' over which side to take re Brexit. The critical factor I think that is missing from Simon's analysis was how did the ambitions of this fringe group (Johnson, Gove, Ress Mogg) manage to merge with a significant number of the population that became Eurosceptic. That brings us to the heart of the question; what are the origins of the Euroscepticism. The answer was rapid eastern EU expansion and large inflows of cheap labour intensifying the disempowering effects of the gig economy that resulted from Thatcherism, globalisation, automation and other factors. There is a Royal Economic Society Paper on EU expansion and the Referendum that essentially makes this case: Eastern expansion did not decide the referendum result but was critical in explaining the rise of Euroscepticism, Eurosceptic politics and the calling of the Referendum in the first place.

[@robinwells8879]

Cambridge used to provide the doers and makers of our country and thence the wider world (not sure if this is still true) whilst Oxford concentrated on providing the folk telling everyone else what to do! Both suffer from being rather closeted and divorced from the “real world”! Not sure of the value of this legacy.

[@davidrenton]

Cambridge gave us the computer revolution in the UK, Sinclair, Acorn, many others and then ARM (the most important Chip company in the world, more so than Intel IMHO) It providing a real practical benefit that the UK still benefits from today. Why for instance are there so many successful UK game devs compared to France and esp. Germany, what occurred in the late 70's/early 80's in Cambridge. I have always viewed Cambridge as immensely superior to Oxford, it's alumni is far more impressive and the 'things' we gain from Cambridge far more tangible. Not to forget the Raspberry Pi is a product of Cambridge.

[@debbiegamon1232]

Cambridge is Chinese.

[@METALFREAK03]

@@davidrenton Teddington (the science place there) made the first computer mate. Not fucking cambridge.

[@robinwells8879]

@@davidrenton absolutely. Oxford did give us Rowan Atkinson!

[@davidrenton]

@@METALFREAK03 the 1st computer (that can be defined as modern Computer) as you say was actually Manchester, not Oxford. Cambridge has been essential to the UK IT Industry, it's the centre of it.

[@JonnM]

I think that either Toby is being deliberately disingenuous, or he’s just misreading Johnson’s motivations and thinking. I have no doubt that Boris did agonise over which position to take on Brexit, but not out of any sense of patriotism, but rather as to which position would allow him to capture Number 10. From his point of view, he choose wisely.

[@hittitecharioteer]

For an answer to that you need to find a James Delingpole interview with Jennifer Arcuri from mid-November 2021. Johnson was offered No.10 on conditions he followed an establishment plan: the WEF/Davos agenda. Johnson is completely controlled by the Deep State. Easy to find on uncensored platforms. Jest web-search the names.

[@georgesdelatour]

But initially, Johnson didn’t do particularly well as a result of the 2016 Leave victory. The Conservatives chose remainer Theresa May as their leader. Maybe you remember this. It was only after her disastrous handling of the negotiations, and the disastrous Conservative performance in the May 2019 EU Parliament election, that the party chose Johnson as leader in July of that year. If May had possessed the tactical skill of a politician like Harold Wilson, Johnson would never have become PM.

[@Desolacex]

Great stuff - More of it!

[@stevealba4599]

Simon is simply incoherent. Little to no purchase on reality. Presented with facts that destroy his entire thesis and there’s nothing there.

[@Lolalai]

Maybe with that he's trying to show that he's a typical product of Oxbridge? 😃

[@freebornjohn2687]

Toby Young should be Toby Grumpy Old Man. What we need is people who have faith in the country and new ideas to drive us forward. What we have is a tired Tory government that resorts to saying its all the civil servants fault and we are going to sack 80,000 of them. So how do you retain your best talent and recruit more talent when your bosses are saying you are lazy and blaming everything on you? Do you see any major companies doing this? No, they've got more brains, expertise and have better leaders.

[@paulies5407]

It remains to be seen that our nation's "best talent" is currently occupying the civil service.

[@freebornjohn2687]

@@paulies5407 For the fast stream the Civil Service recruitment has to compete with the professional firms offering more money and also flexible working. Those firms do expect longer working hours though. Some people do have an interest in the Civil Service and working in public service. I can't see any benefit of pissing people off just to throw red meat to the faithful. Its a publicity stunt. The departments should be under periodic review anyway and being reorganised as appropriate. I know people who work in the Civil Service and they are lucky to have them. I wouldn't join or recommend anybody to join if they are going to be treated with the contempt this government shows them. No doubt there are duds and lazy individuals but all organisations have them. What is beyond doubt is that our politicians are not to use your phrase our "best talent" they are third raters at best. Some of the shire old duffer Tory MPs don't have the brains of a bovine.

[@paulpenfold2352]

@@freebornjohn2687 I work in the public sector. You'd be amazed at the levels of incompetence of external recruits brought in because of cronyism or box-ticking. It's astounding. Barely any of them know how to use a computer, they're entitled, and they instinctively lobby for more staff so as to achieve safety in numbers. Induction usually consists of them burdening everyone with their various commitments so as to engender sympathy for them. The application process is 'lies-based', which basically means you make stuff up. If your line-manager likes you or you're a pain in the arse, those lies will be sanctioned as truth; if they don't like you or you're useful to them, it's failure and a reprimand for being dishonest!

[@richardjones7984]

The opinions of the Oxbridge class was not the deciding factor in Brexit. People were fed up with insane dictates from Brussels and now they are getting fed up with insane dictates from London. Remove the chattering classes.

[@RuneRelic]

All you had to do was look at the age of the universities to see who has power and has always held power ;) The quesiton of getting in there because it has the highest representation in the power stakes vs producing highly capable people, is another issue.

[@winstonsmith9424]

Harry Hill isn't as funny as I remember him

[@kenricnarbrough8191]

I have to say I found Kuper quite hard to listen to. He sounds like hes talking while chewing on a peach stone.

[@electraruby4078]

Oh come on! Brexit emerged from working class discontent!

[@Gr8whitemonster]

Ah, so this is what happened to Simon after the second film.

[@valhaynes8973]

Just another angle on the Brexit/remain debate. Enough now - let’s just move on. More importantly, how many prominent political journalists who had an Oxford education are too close to todays politicians and have lost their objectivity in their reporting? It is far more concerning and damaging to our democracy when voters suspect they are being fed propaganda by journalists that are too partisan and too embedded in the Westminster ‘bubble’.

[@imposs-up1hg]

Toby Young, on his experience at his college and on his course at Oxford: "From a Monday Club tub thumper to a libertarian Conservative". Wow, what a broad range of views. 🤣

[@snakeplissken5480]

these same people always talk about equality and under representation, perhaps any one uni should not be allowed to have say a maximum of 4 alumni in parliament

[@peterjoyce6697]

You've a level of attainment? About that..

[@paulhank7967]

This is probably a mirror image how Rome fell. I can London and Britain declining the same. London will become constantinople and Britain split into minor tribal countries falling out over limited resources.

[@georgesdelatour]

Who are the contemporary equivalents of the Goths in this analogy? What's the ancient equivalent of the EU?

[@ashleydeans]

The one thing missing at Oxford and all other British universities is courses on developing higher states of consciousness. Consciousness is fundamental to education and developing higher states of consciousness involves developing integrated brain functioning rather than only specialized brain functioning. To develop integrated brain functioning, it is necessary to transcend regularly and this is most readily achieved through Transcendental Meditation.

[@ericboxer3053]

left to right? are you saying David Cameron and bojo the commie are right wing?🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@MaverickSeventySeven]

Typical "Academia Speak" ? How Contradictory that those taught in non-Grammar and Private Schools, Including Those Teaching whilst deploring the elitism of education in the former, Aspire to Admission into the so-called 'Elite' Colleges and Universities to further their Education!!!! The FAILING of this Great Nation is the Emphasis upon University Education and the CONTEMPT for Manual Labour, skilled or otherwise! How many of those in this video, and out there in Academia have built a house, worked as a Bricklayer, dug foundations as a Labourer, dug for coal, helped build roads, worked in sewage plants, built electricity pylons, worked on Farms or on Trawlers etc,!!!??? Without them you would NOT be Broadcasting!!! FACT! No matter how the so-called Elite Preen themselves over their Privileged Education believing they are in "Control" of the Nations Fortunes unless a trench is dug a wall is built, a road is laid and power created to enable it all, etc., NOTHING WILL HAPPEN, POLITICALLY OR OTHERWISE!!

[@martynspooner5822]

Absolutely little wheels spin and spin and the big wheels turnaround.

[@PepperpigWorld]

haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate toby young

[@houdinispoon]

Stop saying 'um'

[@e3498-v7l]

The host is giving me the yello fever

[@julianshepherd2038]

I don't think Britain is ruined I think Toby is a grumpy old man wishing for a past that never was. He should get a comedy wig like Fabricant and cheer himself up.

[@bobbugwithoneeyeskingiskin8974]

Name calling is a sign you have nothing to say!

[@evolassunglasses4673]

Please look at the data on issue like crime, IQ and life expectancy. Civilisations rise and fall, we are now in the fall. Our elites are decadent, we are spirituality and financially bankrupt.

[@philipvjones397]

Yep, it's so good that basically none of this cabinet of clowns use the schools. About the only sensible decision any of them have made.

[@minhearg8331]

"I think Toby is a grumpy old man." And the other bloke wasn't?

[@Lolalai]

@@evolassunglasses4673 Not sure about the 'financially bankrupt' part. There is plenty of money and assets in offshore accounts and tax havens. That's what Britain is banking on