Did Steampunk KILL Cliffhanger?

[@the_flushjackson]

We need a playlist of Jim Rugg going ham on comics 100%.

[@MrSamfonseca]

Always fun when Jim gets mad, hahaha.

[@ahmedt2146]

To say that I love Bachalo is an understatement. His Death mini-series is one of my all time favourite comics. But I found it painfully difficult to get into Steampunk. The art, although beautiful, was overwhelmingly detailed and lacked proper storytelling. The story itself was tough to get into too. Its a shame as I absolutely love Bachalo who is an artist that needs to learn how to reign himself in at times.

[@MrHoudini1985]

There is a previous issue called Steampunk: Cataclysmic. I'm not sure if that would fill you in any better. This may just be nostalgia talking but I'm a huge fan of this series. If you can track down the rest of the series it's worth a read.

[@paulh.4471]

The Adventures of Luther Arkwright by Bryan Talbot is probably one of the seminal works of steampunk in comics

[@tomagee420]

that "tobacco is whacko if you're a teen" ad is tattooed into memory

[@richardstarkings9427]

Oh the stories I could tell.

[@BMC_comix]

Appreciate the Rich Friend shout out!

[@smidday15]

If anything killed Cliffhanger, it was the solid four years it took for Campbell and Madureira to put out 7 and 9 issues respectively of their titles, with Battle Chasers never reaching a conclusion. The imprint just petered out as releases of their titles became fewer and further between and 'Cliffhanger' just became something Wildstorm would use when artists and writers from Marvel like Scott Lobdell and Leinil Yu (High Roads) would come over to do creator owned work. It pretty much lasted for the duration that Humberto Ramos was putting out Crimson and Out There (1998-2003). Bachalo's art is polarising enough and this series is incomprehensible, but I'd label this a learning experience for the talent involved before becoming physically angered or calling Steampunk 'garbage comics.' After this Kelly went on to create the Ben 10 franchise and Bachalo found his way back to Marvel and streamlined his art style. Richard Friend has his own KZbin channel which is very much like Cartoonist Kayfabe and has revisited Steampunk a few times, I'd highly recommend checking out his content. www.youtube.com/@RichardFriendartist

[@andyburk8771]

I'd love to see a letter about this one from the Ghost of Alex Toth.

[@dezkarcy]

seriously. lol.

[@stevena488]

"Dear Joe & Chris,.... You're both f-cking idiots-" And Toth would write in the smallest most rage filled writing just so he could fit it all onto that post card, but there's a point where it just becomes illegible squiggles as Toth tries his best not to eat the comic in rage. .... awww man, now I want to read that too.

[@RyanBrown314]

All fake! Think!”

[@RandomAccessDreams]

@@RyanBrown314 lol perfect

[@rickstar7339]

His work on Shade the Changing Man hooked me. The story was almost secondary.

[@Jartravian]

I have the whole run of Steampunk, or close to it, and I don't think I read past the third or fourth issue because it was such a struggle to follow what was happening. I was just picking it up to thumb through and look at the art.

[@stepchildofsoul]

The second Ramos Cliffhanger title was another Buffyesque concept, "Out There". I just happened to be dusting off the shelves as you mentioned it.

[@Gootie29]

You know a book is bad when Rugg gets all worked up!

[@willsi]

Getting back into comics in my late teens, I wasn't exactly shocked to find the level of glut from that era... but, damn, you can spot it fast. The typical signs are some weird digital coloring and everything's turned to max like Jim talks about. I love digging for thru crates to find old stuff, hidden gems. You can spot this and just move right past so fast.

[@RobertNorton12013]

I collected several issues of this silly comic and i never knew why. Art was pretty but SO confusing. BUT, thank you Jim Rugg for giving shout outs to inker Richard Friend. He is doing some badass stuff right now with his own creator owned work coming up and he deserves some attention.

[@kantstandthis]

I loved the art in this book way back when but to this day I can not tell you what it was about even if my life depended on it

[@mrvic9395]

fewer days ahead than behind. Ed dropping knowledge bombs

[@justingoers]

If I recall this comic did not have a an editor. And it shows so hard. It’s just Joe Kelly and Bachalo out there on their own. And it’s almost impossible to follow. Man I could write pages on my feelings about this book. Part of me loves it. It was really important to me. But it also highlights so many issues with early image comics stuff. I still love it and own all this issues. I like to bask in the gorgeous and absurd art. It’s been 20 years since I read it. I’m daring my self right now to reread it. At the end of the day Bachalo is always interesting. I love all his character designs. All the insane costumes hold up at least.

[@mattprather3140]

I never bought the comic but still have a flier in my art desk from this series. A cat with bat wings or something ... I have no idea what compelled me to hold onto it... or to tell you guys this. Thanks, you guys rock.

[@montagethemovie5947]

I grabbed these when they dropped for the Bachalo art. I don’t think I really knew about the SteamPunk genre before this. I definitely dig Guy Davis, Troy Nixey and Gary Gianni though

[@briangriffin391]

Mark Buckingham inked a lot of early Bachalo. The two meshed really well. SteamPunk was the first time I saw Bachalo without Buckingham. It's still awesome, but a totally different style.

[@scotthume2560]

I guess I’m one of the few that love this book

[@kevinbarry6441]

I am a total Bachalo mark. Early years to his modern stuff…but Steampunk? Just completely incomprehensible.

[@vincentimbesi3947]

Steampunk Catechism was a preview issue that came out before the series began.

[@tumblrtwopointoh]

You should look at the first issues of the America's Best Comics series, basically around this Y2K time but actually made by a dude who knows how to write a first issue that tells a story. It's unfair to compare anybody to Alan Moore but he really did it right.

[@cghirardo5951]

My issue with this series is Bachalo went WWWAAAAYYYYY overboard with the layouts. The storytelling was confusing and hard to follow. Which is a shame since Bachalo is such a great artist but this was a bomb.

[@TiamatJ]

M-Rex was a wonderful Joe Kelly creation for 15 yr old me. I believe that was left unfinished along with Steampunk due to sales.

[@jack_yo]

Those early years of digital color were really difficult. No matter how colorful, everything was flat. No depth of field. I just remember thinking, in a few years, the kinks will get worked out, and comics will be better. The kinks did get worked out, but we're still stuck with a lot of professionals who don't understand or care enough to make it work to the fullest potential.

[@mechfan01]

JJ Abrams of comics with those lens flares.

[@andyduggan1212]

I asked Richard Starkings about the lettering, the style choices were not up to him. He was told how each characters balloons and font should be. You should talk to him sometime. We are are good friends.

[@sweatervestviking]

God, the Japanese Anime ads were like a whole new world to my friends I. We lived in a nowhere town of 1,000 population, so when we’d score comics from the city and see those ads (or in PC Gamer and GamePro) we would beg the local video store to get some of those in. I think that was back when Dragonball Z was only shown at like 6 AM on Fox on weekdays. Crazy to think it’s all just available now anytime.

[@scott.arnold]

Catechism was an ashcan style book that preceded Steampunk.

[@scott.arnold]

I will add... I like Steampunk. While it isn't perfect, I love the maximalist style. I think the coloring hurts it, but I genuinely enjoy the book. Haven't done a reread, but regularly thumb through the issues. Comics are all made for different folks ... Clearly, I was the mark for this one.

[@chrismacdonald2580]

I know that Danger Girl and Battle Chasers did those pre issue #1 books that made the number 1 issues into "part 2" of the narrative. I don't remember Crimson doing that, but that's what Catechism was

[@SalsaSharky]

I lowkey love this series and collected the entire thing (my only Cliffhanger). Yes, it's confusingly drawn, the colours are awful (although I was an easy mark for colour flares at the time) and the inking choices don't print well, but the plot and plotting gets better by the end

[@Doofball3]

The colors and draftsmanship look great, it doesn't look like an easy read though.

[@josenieves7514]

I tried numerous times to read this. After 3/4 issues gave up. Not an easy book to get through. This from a big C.Bachalo fan...Give J.Rugg major props for getting through his read of this book....

[@JH-pe3ro]

Although digital color can be blamed for some of this look, I have a suspicion that it's also CDs and the internet, because those things vastly expanded access to reference material, but only along a certain spectrum. Something that happened in the late 90's along with usage of CGI and Photoshop, was that commercial art suddenly became conspicuously detailed and gritty: what you got on those CDs mostly wasn't interesting location photography or pose reference, but clip art and generic texturing. So, for a period, everything became clip art with textures on top. And when I look at this book and ask myself, "did they design this stuff by throwing clip art on the screen and then redrawing it," I'm tempted to say yes - it's like the "Microsoft Encarta" version of worldbuilding.

[@stevena488]

Chris Bachalo went through a very odd thing where I think he followed the trends of the 90s. His early work in the 90s feels very early Vertigo, kind of Richard Case-esque, then you can tell the momemt he saw Joe Mad and saw Age of Apocalypse because his style shifts into being Joe Mad and I think he stuck with that style for a while. I think his style is still a lot like that though I've only seen his covers these days and I don't know if he does interiors anymore? Hard to say. I'm not wanting to look it up. Just feels like he was following the trends of the era and taking the worst lessons from it. Joe Kelly though is one of the guys who co created Ben 10 so I think that may take up his time these days. IF Ben 10 is even still going because I am so out of the loop with animation. Edit: - Wildstorm did a Star Trek comic?.... Okay....

[@stevena488]

@@wtk6069 huh. Any good?

[@vicmalhotra2679]

He still does a lot of interior work. Especially compared to other artists from that era. Lots of Spidey stuff and a long run on Doctor Strange in the last few years. You can see his Michael Golden influence in his more recent work.

[@stevena488]

@@vicmalhotra2679 ooooh. Might check that out, then. Thanks Vic!

[@smidday15]

Bachalo's art continued through the 2000s and 2010s in a similar style to where he was at the end of the '90s. He reunited with Kelly for a 5-issue run on 'Non-Stop Spider-Man' in 2021 but his interior work has been limited to that and a couple of other 5 issue arcs (one for the Spider-Man/ Deadpool team-up series and another for a Deadpool relaunch) since 2018.

[@tonyfrickey9062]

I think what killed cliffhanger was the same thing that started killing image..late books...steampunk would have been a better fit at vertigo..

[@pjbrown4736]

Want an issue 1 that sells the next issue? Damn Them All by Si Spurrier and Charlie Adlard.

[@YakBat]

Cliffhanger is what made me realize I might need to step away from comics. Glad to see that the rage their books caused me was not a singular experience. I used to think maybe I got too picky, but the stuff Ed and Jim focused on, especially the coloring really annoyed me at the time. That Best of Anime Colombia house is what ruined my credit. I stupidly used my real name. Those tapes were mad expensive for what you got. God I miss OG Cassandra Cain.

[@ChristopherPaulSmith]

I was working at WildStorm at the time, and I remember that surprisingly these pages are very clear in black and white. Richard and Chris did a fantastic job. The lettering, writing and the coloring took the wrong approach.

[@CartoonistKayfabe]

Clear drawings and clear visual storytelling in service of a narrative aren't the same thing. -- Ed

[@doomedhuh]

Bachalo had replaced Joe Mad as the regular penciller on Uncanny X-Men, which he left to do this book. but Cliffhanger took off strong with Danger Girl

[@LifeOnSaturnComics]

Are there any discords out there for cartoonist kayfabe fans?

[@GavadonA]

I recommend Sebastian O if anyone wants a steampunk fix.

[@JaradGreene]

Yeah this book was so hard to understand as a teenager. I wanted to like it, but I felt like a dunce reading it. Love to hear you all discuss Tellos, the Mike Weiringo image series, which I think holds up (except for maybe the coloring).

[@sixtiviris]

I was a fan of both this guys, but I couldn't keep up with this, but, I really did look at the art (at least at the time) and it was very much not about the story telling, but about the art individually, stealing one thing or another from it!

[@jenumba]

Out of all the CLiffhanger comics, Steampunk is the one I remember the least.

[@jag_140]

This comic reminds me of a lot of early Image. "Steampunk but too sleek to be steampunk" was definitely very popular during the Y2k era... Gear Station and Soul Saga come to mind, as do two failed Disney movies. From a visual standpoint, it's fun to appreciate the intricate chaos of this as one would a collage or a piece of abstract art. But as something you're actually meant to read... it's a total drudge.

[@Octavius_DelMonte]

Hey guys, I know it might not be your wheelhouse, but maybe you could do an episode on web comics that are published in physical form and how well (or poorly) the artist intent and quality translates from a digital device to a physical book and the pros and cons of each medium. Keep up the great work. Been buying comics since I was 15 in dollar store blind bags, growing up to follow news stand comic releases from Marvel like Peter Parker Spider-Man by John Romita Jr. and Avengers by Busiek and George Perez. I love this medium a lot, though sometimes I hate how its current box office success has affected creative direction and quality. Thanks again - Shakeer

[@TheWhmaxwell]

Garbage comics... LOL. So true. I bought a few copies of Battlechasers, Crimson and Steampunk. The only one that I continued to read was "Out there"... not even sure why...

[@TOYBOXTHEATRE]

Catechism was a one shot that came out before this. I agree with all of what you are saying. I was excited about this book when it came out cuz I was a huge fan of his Shade and his Gen X to some degree, but this book was so bad. It was confusing, busy, and bad

[@briangriffin391]

There was a one-shot before this. That's why you were a little lost in the beginning.

[@KeithHarper]

JIM ANGRY! JIM SMASH!

[@timothymarkin4481]

Steampunk Catechism was a preview story predating the first issue. I had that plus the first two issues since they were new and kept them for many years, due to the Bachalo art. But a couple years back, they went into a box of comics to get rid of; it was just a slog to even look at, and I knew I’d never complete the series.

[@BZackheim]

So did you guys like the comic?

[@barelyheard]

I’ve been hoping you guys would cover this comic and maybe I’d finally hear how the series ended… I stopped reading for all the reasons mentioned- but it got worse. They start giving the villains crazy illegible fonts and long speeches as the story progresses... you feel like the writer might sense it’s not working and proceeds to make a bad situation worse by overwriting it and soon the pages are swallowed in more and more nonsense. So the ONLY reason to buy, Chris’ art, got buried under more terrible British accents. This was fun idea for book. A Steam Punk story with Bachalo artwork could have been really great. The Fantastic Four was Kirby’s second attempt at the Challengers of the Unknown concept. I think Bachalo could take another whack at it with a much better writer and maybe it could be great.

[@silverfactoryrecordsandboo8584]

I remember these being solicited in Wizard. I was like...I wanna say 12 or 13 when it came out? I missed the big debut of Image and as a result these previews and echoes of the Image style in 90s X-Men and Spider-Man comics were my introduction to that aesthetic. I really really did not like it and drifted toward going through the canon/reading prose versus buying the new comics coming out for much of my teen years. The only new books I distinctly remember buying around that time were the Ice Haven+Death Ray issues of Eightball and issue 4 of Ivan Brunetti's Schizo since the owner of my LCS, god bless him, kinda took it upon himself to make me into a hipster lol. I don't regret any of that though-you're 14, you got $15 in your pocket, you can spend it to read Ice Haven the day it dropped or buy 4 Cliffhanger books? That's a no-brainer. Nonetheless, it has been really fascinating to go through these Image and 90s indie boom books on your channel. Being ~8-10 years younger than you guys, the difference in our perspectives on this stuff is enormous. I see the historical value now in the 90s boom and even tried to read some of it (found a complete run of Gen 13 for peanuts, got 6 issues in and gave up bc the writing was so bad) but I much prefer the guided tour I get from the CKF crew. And in this video particularly, seeing my own frustrations with these mediocre comics being mirrored is cathartic.

[@ALbertoDoriguzzi]

You forgot Battle Chasers in the list..? which was, let be honest, just ok. 🤷🏻‍♂️ Art good to awesome, storytelling meh, story, uhm, mixed feelings. But I still love Mad.

[@ALbertoDoriguzzi]

Oh I forgot you made a video 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@dwaynemuth8775]

I really tried to read this book and the artwork would catch my eye but the lack of a narrative comes off like visual diarrhea and the meandering dialogue at the time for me was like listening to a radio show and watching tv! Thanks for reviewing this book because it always set me off as a big 🎉elaborate waste of great looking art! Plus at this point Cliffhanger had run its course! Battle Chasers was always fn late and then it just stopped with no consideration to the people supporting the book for 9 issues! Cliffhanger! Great tag for an imprint? This is unfortunately ALWAYS the downside of reading comics the lackluster publishing schedule and pretty pictures with no gd story! You guys both hit the nail on the head with this one 🎯! Keep reading and making comix (on a regular schedule?LOL)👍😎⚡️

[@karlbrubaker2593]

This has replaced All Star Batman as my favorite Jim Rugg critique.

[@ja_no]

Funny to realize, 20+ years after, that no one was able to read and understand this book... and if I remember correctly, it only got worse. Page after page of muddy visual chaos. As a fan of Bachalo I gave it my best for a few issues, but there just wasn't anything to hold onto and that was that. The next Bachalo art I saw was on some Wu-Tang album, years later. Kinda sad overall, they obviously worked hard on this, it's just so misguided.

[@peterm.fitzpatrick7735]

I may be stating the obvious, but it seems to me that this period of comic making emphasized the penciler and colorist/inker way more than the writer, resulting in losing the sense of cohesive story along the way. And not only in these Image-type releases. There are Marvel and DC comics from this period that make the same mistake. It seems that Digital tools had everyone in a trance of exploration with no discipline to create viable and clear narratives.

[@HelloMisterJAMWAH]

I love Bachalo, and I loved Kelly's Deadpool run but yeah, this comic was horrible. Claustrophobic, nonsensical and irritating as hell. I'm all for experimenting with the medium and weird layouts, but where books like We3 and Asterios Polyp do it without sacrificing storytelling, this didn't even attempt to make the page readable.

[@erikwirfs-brock2432]

Big swing and a miss with this comic, looks awful. Although it does raise the question, is there a mainstream comic in the last ten years this weird, or are comics too civilized now

[@gmosphere]

If you want a good steampunk style comics, check out girl genius