Did The Archers get George Grundy's sentence right? How accurate is the media when it comes to law?

Concurrent vs Consecutive sentencing. How do judges decide?
That Archers channel: • EMERGENCY EPISODE - Ge...
Disclaimer: Neither this nor any other video, may be taken as legal advice. I accept no liability whatever for any reliance placed upon it.
Founded by Alan Robertshaw and @Blackbeltbarrister
kzbin.info...

[@marieparker3822]

'Perverting the course of judtice.' - three words come to mind: Post Office Scandal.

[@Frohicky1]

Jail Paula Vennels.

[@qrayner]

Thank you so much for your very supportive comments about our ‘All About The Archers’ podcast, glad we were able to fill in the blanks for you. This is a really interesting legal insight into the George storyline as well. We hope to be speaking to a senior prison officer on our Patreon event this Friday to outline what George can expect on a youth wing in an adult prison.

[@artmedialaw]

Thank you for all the insight. And that sounds like it's going to be a very interesting episode!

[@AllAboutTheArchers-vv8jz]

Brilliant! Thank you so much for looking into this meaty subject and for mentioning our podcast - much appreciated!

[@taxpayer1040]

My late mother used to describe the Archers like smoking. Extremes hard to give up!! Thank you so much for this, far, indeed much more than vaguely interesting.

[@frogandspanner]

I remember Physicists complaining about the duration of the scream of Nigel Pargetter as he fell off what must have been the 400m tall Loxley Hall (s = 0.5 gt^2).

[@thepoloman6515]

It may have been examined on the radio 4 statistics program More or Less

[@mrwigwag373]

Brilliant. Thank you for this. Clearly the most pressing topic of the moment. How much of an impact would Alice’s and Fallon’s personal statements have made on the sentencing? Alice blamed George for her damaged relationship with her daughter, but her alcoholism had done this already before the accident. Can you say whatever you want, and can anything you say be challenged? Thank you again.

[@artmedialaw]

Personal Statements actually have no effect on sentencing. They're just intended to give victims a voice.

[@petermainwaringsx]

After an absence of many years I did catch this plot, or maybe it caught me, early on. The accident was caused when the passenger tried to get out of the car and the driver, who tried to stop her, was distracted. It was the perversion of the course of justice that did for him.

[@angusmacmillan5365]

Decades ago I was stopped for speeding wth a trailer at 86mph but the officer said, "as I was driving responsibly" he would reduce that to 78mph so I would be charged for careless driving rather than dangerous driving. The speed limit at that time was 40mph with a trailer. I was fined £15 and three points on my licence but was not allowed to plead guilty by letter, which meant I had a 300 mile round trip - presumably as part of the punishment. I often wonder if there's a difference with speeding between careless and dangerous driving. (edited for spelling mistake)

[@bigutubefan2738]

Great video. I'd like to see at least one Archers video, for every Wagatha Christie one, from now on please.

[@artmedialaw]

I googled 'grundy car crash' in prep for this, and that family has a lot of previous!

[@mattundercoat]

It would have made an interesting story line if the CPS (Borchester Division) had decided to prosecute Alice (the inebriated occupant of the vehicle) with being drunk in charge. I suppose they fictionally concluded that it wasn’t in the public interest but it would have been a handy reminder that you don’t need to be driving to be done for drunk in charge.

[@alanparkinson549]

Although once George had the keys in his possession, surely, Alice could not have been 'in charge'.

[@iandeare1]

​@@alanparkinson549: 'In Charge' wouldn't be the charge laid, or the crime committed

[@somalilandrecognition5413]

Funny that you are going through this. My query is was it dangerous driving? He took his eyes off the road to prevent Alice from opening the door of a moving vehicle say at 30 mph? His actions were to save her life, and in doing so caused an accident. His main crime was to move Alice to look like she was driving and not going to the police sooner - out of fear and panic. His intention in the first instance being to care for Alice. The character had no prior convictions, he risked his life to save 3 or so people's lives and he gave himself up. I predict that there will be a Appeal.

[@mattundercoat]

Given he pleaded guilty, an appeal would be a bit of an uphill struggle. Maybe the (fictional) judge agreed with you to some extent, though, and that’s why he made the sentences concurrent.

[@johnpaterson6112]

Submoronic!​ Obviously any appeal would be against sentence not conviction.

[@mattundercoat]

@@johnpaterson6112 The sentence is well within the guidelines for the offence so what would you build an appeal on and, seeing as it’s running concurrently with the longer sentence, what would be the point?

[@chrisblay]

The idea that anything emanating from the BBC could bear any relation to real life is a novelty. 🤣

[@Yogi-Bear-227]

Extended re-test is as far as I am aware 70minutes. His room! His Chambers.

[@nickdawson9270]

In this case sentencing may have been informed by the duration of the actor's forthcoming alternative role.

[@christop997]

Your video is a commentary of upmost national importance in drama! But seriously, what did you think of the possible prosecution of his parents (who discovered the crime belatedly) for not shopping him sooner?!! Would that really happen? That needs a video. I guessed 18 months. A bit closer than a retired magistrate clerk i heard who said suspended. ( but mine was based on the Archers principle that his parents had been saved, someone had to suffer and he is a Grundy!)

[@allisonstandley2573]

Alice was utterly drunk sat in a lay by with the car able to be entered by anyone. She was in a vulnerable position (I know it’s not real), it was such excellent writing.

[@MichelleMM-e8j]

Thanks for explaining the fancy wigs Alan! I always wondered why and when they were worn. Perhaps a bad hair day? 🤭, Well, my advice to them is they really should have checked themselves in front of a mirror 🪞 😂😂😂xx

[@dcbrit2003]

That's for giving me a bright spot to my day. I have a suggestion. Maybe it would be interesting to talk about the laws around animal welfare and treatment in this country as I believe you have a personal interest in this area

[@artmedialaw]

I do have some animal law ideas. I'm just waiting for clever friends to be available. I know it's a bit off brand, but I'd like to experiment with people actually knowing what they're talking about.

[@terrybutler1231]

Can we try and somehow get script writers to know the difference between robbery, burglary, and theft. Everything seems to be robbery to them.🙈🥴🙄

[@charleswillcock3235]

Another great video. Thanks for sharing.

[@Gregdotgreg]

Anyone who watches something on telly that involves the job they work in will know there's a lot of poetic licence

[@jca111]

The Archers is on the radio

[@Gregdotgreg]

@@jca111 have you watched this KZbin video?

[@mungoh42]

In lieu of your location, you are obliged to state the species of vegetation behind you! :-) Nice video Mr R, thankyou.

[@artmedialaw]

Well I'm no David Attenborough, but I think its some sort of bush.

[@mattundercoat]

@@artmedialaw Typical barrister: won’t give an answer without hedging…

[@roberthuntley1090]

I was wondering if he could also be charged with driving without insurance; the car owner was unconscious so she wasn't a position to give him permission (like your TWOC example).

[@Jono793]

Fancy doing an episode by episode breakdown of Silk! That amazing legal drama from a few years back. I'm probably just cynical. Maybe it's common for trainee barristers to commit multiple thefts on their first day 😂

[@2lefThumbs]

As someone who only hears the Archers because it follows the 7pm news summary, which follows the 6:30 comedy on radio 4 (so may not reach the off button becauss I'm eating or washing the dishes), I appreciate this plot update👍

[@artmedialaw]

I should have been careful. That lass on the beeb got into loads of bother for spoilers!

[@Trevor_Austin]

It is interesting to compare the penalties for driving and injuring someone and those handed down for writing hurty words on the internet and someone being offended.

[@thepoloman6515]

Thank you.

[@john_michael_white]

Though on the left, I really don't the concept of concurrent sentences - it seems to me like "commit one crime, get others free". Would seem far fairer to total the sentences, but reflect the severity of the offending by adjusting the time you'd be eligible to be released on licence.

[@somalilandrecognition5413]

12:29 And that's funny too. There are very few grounds that the Judicial complaints process will consider - one being if a judge has fallen asleep. I wrote to them suggesting that the very fact that they sight this as a one of about 4 grounds, is and in itself bringing the Justice system into disrepute. Seems like I am not alone in that thought.

[@somalilandrecognition5413]

On topics to discuss - the conduct of judges, where they deviate from good practice (how to make yourself unpopular, Al) Why can virtually nothing be done about it? The reluctance of a judge at a higher court to overturn or allow reconsideration of a judgement made in a lower court. I agree with what you said previously, the vast majority of people who take their dispute to court, do so because they have suffered considerable harm (and that invariably the court process adds to that, win or lose.

[@roberthuntley1090]

In terms of the plot line, there were long term effects to someone in another vehicle who miscarried shortly after the accident. Just out of curiosity, how would a court take account of a possibly (but not certainly) consequence like that.

[@davejohnson7178]

Al on the same theme the mini series 'A Confession' about the Christopher Halliwell murders spotlights PACE and also the trial judges disagreements. I will be interested to hear your thoughts on a) Article 2 Human Rights Act 1998 in respect of Code C of PACE. 2) The difference of both trail Judges reasoning about the arrest.

[@artmedialaw]

I maybe should get a TV at some stage.

[@WolfmanWoody]

It would be interesting to hear your views on the Court cases and police interviews they show on Coronation Street. I reckon half the villains could walk away because of the way the cases are conducted.

[@artmedialaw]

I've always thought every Colombo episode should have an epilogue with the judge throwing out the case. "You threatened to blow up his cable car!" I do love Colombo though.

[@WolfmanWoody]

@@artmedialaw Yes, often a bit thin on evidence. Love him though.

[@adecrowshaw7235]

What is the reason for sentencing someone to 2 years when in reality they will only serve 1 year? Would D be on licence for the remainder? Why not sentence literally as to what will be served with anything additonal specifically mentioned?

[@artmedialaw]

The idea is that by having people spend some time on licence they can impose conditions to transition them back into going straight, and they can yank them back into prison if they think they're up to no good with a lot less effort than a new trial.

[@adecrowshaw7235]

@artmedialaw Thank you for taking the time to answer; I appreciate it. I wonder why the sentence is not handed down as 12 months imprisonment plus 12 months on licence. Would that not more accurately reflect the punishment?

[@artmedialaw]

It would be a bit more transparent. The current terminology seems to be a holdover from the days of 'time off for good behaviour', But now remission is more or less automatic. Although you can lose days for misconduct.

[@adecrowshaw7235]

@artmedialaw I suppose change takes time, and I'm sure there are far more critical reforms to make. Thanks again; it is much appreciated.

[@andrewgilbertson5356]

Thank you. Al.

[@staffofdagda6238]

Wow, perverting the course of justice is a scary one.

[@AndyFletcherX31]

They probably made it concurrent because they wanted him back in the series as soon as possible :)

[@Scouse270]

As always with your videos I found this far more than vaguely accurate, interesting etc. As a casual reader of news sites I can't recall ever hearing about anyone being sentenced to consecutive terms in the UK. Is it a rare occurrence? Also you state that we sentence on culpability rather than consequence. I find this interesting as I've often wondered why the sentence for attempted murder is significantly less than for actual murder. It feels like rewarding incompetence.

[@artmedialaw]

Yes. And as the mens rea is higher for attempt then arguably it's even more morally culpable. Although I do like Sideshow Bob's take on this. "Attempted murder? How is that an offence? You don't get a Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry." But consec sentences aren't unusual or anything. Just a lot of the time the offending can be said to be all part of one action. And judges can always reflect additional offending by upping the main sentence a bit. For example, someone commits an offence on bail. You can have a separate bail act offence which attracts its own penalty, or as being on bail at the time is an aggravating feature in the guidelines, that can up the main sentence by the same amount.

[@Scouse270]

@@artmedialaw Thanks for the explanation although I did have to google "mens rea" 🙂

[@artmedialaw]

Me too.

[@Scouse270]

@@artmedialaw 😀

[@neuralwarp]

Presumably also driving without insurance?

[@TheVigilant109]

Very interesting and informative.

[@highpath4776]

Driving without insurance ? Points On Licence ?

[@Blacksquareable]

Ages since I listened to the Archers! Was the drunk neighbour Alice, by any chance?

[@UKRO404]

Yes.

[@allisonstandley2573]

His auntie Alice in fact.

[@iandeare1]

And so they decided to milk it... I've checked, and although inconclusive, the teaser for future episodes seems to indicate they're going to milk it even further... Both of which I find extremely annoying, and even patronising; and I certainly don't understand the fictional characters behaviour. One thing (and why I checked the plot line) historically, soap writers were notorious for forgetting, and/or amending plot lines backstories to suit - I'm still not convinced it's not just shoddy workmanship 😉

[@simonxag]

So all those cops turning off their body cams are getting done for perverting the course of justice. Not.

[@Jack-fs2im]

loved this video thanx but trying to find The Reform Party private prosecution on Manchester Airport incident 😊

[@artmedialaw]

I've done a general vid on private prosecutions. But Dan has done a specific one on Manchester.

[@Jack-fs2im]

@@artmedialaw I watched Dans and he says go to Art of Law so I did,but think he just mean,t generally not specific to against Police,CP and IOPC big guys by reform

[@maryj5593]

Diary of country snobbery. The only characters worth following are The Grundy family and the goings on in The Bull. I did stop listening 7 years ago I got fed up with Jennifer and Pat and Tony

[@AllAboutTheArchers-vv8jz]

APPEAL? Based on your brilliant explanation, would an appeal be ill advised?

[@artmedialaw]

Very. He couldn't appeal conviction as he pleaded guilty. He could appeal against sentence. But the sentences were well within the guidelines, and if anything he was lucky with the concurrent thing. Although the CoA generally can't increase a sentence unless the A-G asks them to, they can say that any time spent in prison awaiting the decision doesn't count towards sentence. So Mr Grundy could well risk sitting there for a year without any of that counting towards his sentence!

[@AllAboutTheArchers-vv8jz]

@@artmedialaw Perfect. That is so helpful, thanks.

[@artmedialaw]

Glad to be of service!

[@marksterling8286]

Wonderful video thank you for sharing

[@daffyduk77]

I'm not aware the broadcast, print media etc have a duty or even moral obligation in eg fiction portrayals to be factual in respect of law. Just as eg film media esp. American, is going to be shot through with nonsense to provide entertainment

[@robertburrows6612]

I would like to see your reaction and comments on judge John Deed

[@artmedialaw]

Oh indeed. You can't move in the Crown Court these days for judges leaping from the bench and lamping the prosecutor.

[@kinorspielmann4649]

Anyone who listens to The Archers....

[@allisonstandley2573]

It’s brilliant, this series of events were portrayed with great writing and acting skills. Much better than telly.

[@kinorspielmann4649]

@@allisonstandley2573 Bollocks! It's BBC dross for the lower-IQ middle classes.

[@trevormillar1576]

The Archers is about as reaistic as Grange Hill, the school where thr children never say fu...... ..

[@NapoleonGelignite]

I used to love Radio 4. They got rid of comedy and the news became either a woke-fest, or recently an arm of Israeli propaganda.

[@markrobinson1458]

Running concurrently is a crime.

[@GlyndwrMeredith]

Does it matter? The Archers world is fantasyland where there are no expletives or politics … does Archers law matter?

[@erdiddlydhdhdhdhdhdjd12999]

can u do an analysis on breaking bad lol?

[@michaelmacdonell4834]

I hate to be the person that breaks this to you.. "The Archers" is a fictional story. It's all made up.

[@artmedialaw]

That didn't stop me searching to see if the judge's sentencing remarks had been posted before I remembered.

[@frogandspanner]

The conclusion I reach from this is that if I commit several offences over a long period of time, and receive custodial sentences, I can expect a longer duration that if I committed the same offences over a short period of time. Is that why rich people concentrate their frauds into a short timescale? No wonder people think the law is a ass.