Did the Babylonian Marriage Market as described by Herodotus really Exist? Daily Life in Mesopotamia

[@chubbymoth5810]

The practise of arranged marriages is still practised all around the world. What is interesting is that the woman had a protected position in this story. A dowry can be seen in many cultures as well today and persists in symbolic gifts in modern societies. Also the fact that a contract had to be made implies widespread literacy and bureaucracy.

[@beepboop204]

i met many international students and first-generation immigrants from China and India and other places (mostly China and India) it was very interesting to see their views as males or females coming out of a tradition that places family above the individual. even some of the more racist white people ive met have to admit they respect the determination of certain immigrant groups to stay married and refuse to divorce. that made me chuckle to myself

[@RelivingHistory1]

there was no widespread literacy. There will have been scribes who will have been able to confirm if the papers were authentic, and scribes able to write these contracts down, but the vast vast majority of people were illiterate.

[@beepboop204]

@@RelivingHistory1 tis a pet peeve when people assume, for example, runes had to be magical or something, because how/why else would someone use them to decorate something? its probably more a case of people thinking things look cool, or associating symbols or designs with things, as opposed to being highly literate and magically trained. you dont have to be able to read to know a stop sign in a foreign country is a stop sign, for example. its the right shape and color and context

[@xspydazx]

Marridge markets are stil traditional culture for Albainians and Bulgarians ....

[@koltoncrane3099]

Chubby Idk. If ya watch the Medici series for instance it clearly shows medici married a woman that was an arranged marriage but didn’t love her. The dad said he loved mules but a Medici would never Marry a mule. Then constantina that married Medici when Medici asked why she’d marry him she said cause it’d benefit her father of course. Maybe women were in a protected position but a lot of arrange marriage seems to benefit the families not the actual individual.

[@dannyhussain5489]

It was an absolute pleasure to work with you Cy, a fantastic video, looking forward to more!

[@HistorywithCy]

No, thank YOU for bringing life to these characters, really appreciate it and as others have said, you are now the voice for Herodotus should you wish to be! Thanks again!

[@shlomomarkman6374]

It's probably a description of a slave market with fantastic details, very realistic, especially if farmers trying to sell their daughters which was also common at the time. Remember that as recently as 2017 there were such markets in Mossul and Raqqa (not that far from Babylon) under ISIS with captured women sold to the highest bidder. Also selling daughters exist unofficially in the middle-east today.

[@AbdulHannanAbdulMatheen]

Very true. I was shocked learning about it

[@deathsheadknight2137]

Thanks obama 👍🏿

[@AbdulHannanAbdulMatheen]

@@deathsheadknight2137 what did Obama do to cause this?

[@EresirThe1st]

@@AbdulHannanAbdulMatheen Funded the islamic rebels trying to overthrow the Assad government

[@AbdulHannanAbdulMatheen]

@@EresirThe1st wasn't it Obama's government that lead the campaign leading to the expiration of thousands of ISIS militants.

[@TheRedneckPreppy]

Danny Hussain's voice for Herodotus brought a smile. Henceforth, his must be the only voice for him.

[@dannyhussain5489]

Aw thank you so much man, warms my heart to hear that!! Much love

[@HistorywithCy]

Agreed! Herodotus he shall be! As always, thanks for watching!

[@HistorywithCy]

@@dannyhussain5489 you deserve it man! Thanks for doing the voices!

[@Liberater4589]

I would love to see more videos on ancient marriage and family customs its always fascinating to see how people of the past former relationships and families compared to our own times

[@HistorywithCy]

I'll probably do one on Egypt sometime so stay tuned. Thanks for watching!

[@henkstersmacro-world]

I just can't imagine Herodotus telling lies or making things up🤣🤣🤣

[@jeffreed3443]

Lol of course not… he’d never exaggerate or completely lie … only the truth… even ones he made up

[@koboldgeorge2140]

The Father of Completely-Accurate-and-Totally-Honest-Description

[@rparl]

But he has a reputation for having too much imagination. From what I can recall from college, The History of the Peloponnesian War was the first fairly accurate history.

[@TimL1980]

Made up or not ... Herodotus system does look like it's a good idea.... at least in part and when compared to other systems that have been in use in many places.

[@Bobbfj]

@@rparl when it benefits Europeans it’s accurate lol

[@sizanogreen9900]

Always happy to learn anything about ancient times I did not yet know:) Thanks for making this video! And thanks to the patrons for funding it!

[@HistorywithCy]

My pleasure, thanks for watching! Lot's more on the way, stay tuned!

[@johnrohde5510]

In this, Herodotus follows the Greek habit of putting forward one's own bright idea as an established, ancient and successful custom elsewhere. Plato's Atlantis is the most famous and extreme example.

[@Codbckdjlnfkfj]

Do you have any evidence for this? Herodotus is often very gullible - or at least willing to write down very incredulous stories - but he rarely makes things up himself; usually he relies on faulty sources. Also, in the very next section he describes a custom which he explicitly says is a bad idea, forced temple prostitution for women.

[@johnrohde5510]

@@Codbckdjlnfkfj Temple prostitution was something he and others could see happening. The bride auction is something he says doesn't happen anymore. I don't think Greeks of his time made the same clear division between is and ought. He could well have got the wrong end of the stick, misremembered and embellished or been told a tall tale; he does all three elsewhere.

[@MaciejBogdanStepien]

Plato's Atlantis was a cautionary tale about piety, written from 2 to 12 years after the most famous disaster that struck the Greeks in that period: the richest and most famous port-city of Helike was destroyed in a terrible earthquake and sank (due to liquifaction) overnight. They were the proud hosts of the most venerated shrine of Poseidon, a pan-Hellenic pilgrimage place that only Delphi could be compared to. They denied the delegation from their own colony to take measures for a copy of the statue of Poseidon from the Helike Temple, and treated the envoys really bad (some say there were even killings). This "angered the god," who was thought to be the one responsible for earthquakes (as ground behaves like a stormy sea). Nobody has ever asked Plato what he meant by the story of Atlantis (a great port-city, where Poseidon was venerated, whose inhabitants angered their god and the whole city was sunk in a single, terrible night) -- everybody knew what he was talking about. It was written only a few years after the disaster that absolutely shocked everyone. He changed the name and the location due to caution (reporting exactly on the place, with speaking the exact name, might have brought on you some part of the said "anger"). The ruins of Helike were recently found, now located inland due to the sediments deposited by the local river over 24 hundred years.

[@brandyshaw6624]

Just wanted to comment and say how thankful I am for your content. I wanted to learn more about Lebanon in the ancient world, and your series on the Canaanites was exactly what I needed. Thanks for all you do!

[@HistorywithCy]

Thank you for watching and you're welcome! Will have a revamp of the Canaanite series towards the end of the year as I have a few surprises for y'all concerning that region. Thanks for watching, ,really appreciate it and stay tuned for more!

[@calin7017]

I've recently found your channel and have been hooked ever since. Probably one of the most complete, thorough and documented (sources included!) history channel on YT. However, I wonder if anybody did a research on how the food and its cooking evolved in a society, Sumerian as a matter of fact, and how it permeated other people cultures to finally make it to present days. As an example, until four or five decades back, there was a refreshing beverage named "Braga" or "Bouz" in the Balcan countries: Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece and all the neighboring countries, which belonged at some point to the Otoman Empire. It was a fermented, sweet and sour beverage made out of wheat bran, barley or corn . It was delicious, especially in hot summer days. Trying to replicate it, I found out that the recipe is quite similar to what is called Sumerian beer. It is quite possible, in my opinion, that the recipe found its way to the Balcans until nowadays via the Turks, from the Persians and so on. To make it short, if we look from the food point of view, we all have more to share, and that goes back centuries and millennia, rather than fight upon. I could go on and on, but I think you got my point.

[@HistorywithCy]

Yes, food would be interesting to cover. There's a channel called "Table of the Gods" that sort of delves into this...not specifically Sumerian but ancient Assyrian and related. You might find it interesting. Thanks for watching, really appreciate it!

[@NefariousKoel]

Read this many years ago, in Herodotus' Histories, and it stood out as unusual and very structured. Although I got the impression this was something happening in a specific small town or area, and that it was a village elder telling him about it being a past custom. As were many of the stories he recorded.

[@thejeffinvade]

Marriage has always been one of the most important financial decisions, even now.

[@HistorywithCy]

Agreed.... thanks for watching!

[@gysgijsbers4202]

For richer, for poorer, in sickness & in health, till death do us part... the real test of a marriage ofcourse is when the money dries up...

[@urkozaminje86]

Always a scam for man

[@sanniepstein4835]

​@@urkozaminje86do you think men are never gold diggers?

[@kendallbyrd9875]

Great episode! Been waiting on this one.

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it and thanks for watching!

[@ClassicCase]

It's not that different today. If a man marries, what's hers is hers and what's his is also hers.

[@koboldgeorge2140]

Im reading herodotus right now and i wondered about this! Thanks for uploading!

[@laxman90210]

Hammurabi laws seem pretty close to modern laws in many countries. Wonder how far back the dowry custom goes.

[@Faviomec]

That's because modern law still uses the code of Hammurabi as a basis for jurisprudence

[@tableofgods]

Thank you for educating us as always!

[@robbabcock_]

Terrific stuff, Cy!

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it and thanks for watching!

[@olorin4317]

I like the ancient googly eye statues.

[@jedgrahek1426]

This makes me very impressed with Hammurabi's Law Code, and makes me wonder why the only detail commonly mentioned about it is the eye for an eye stuff... this makes it seem like that is a bit of an outlier.

[@albertojuste6192]

Hello Cy, nice video! Maybe you could make one talking about the prophecy of Marduk, and how every king who stole the statue was killed by his own family members (from Mursili I to Xerxes)

[@donaldlococo954]

Very interesting. If the rejected wife walked away with her dowry and the bride price, I imagine 1 in 3 marriages did not end in divorce. Taking a second wife would be more economically advisable. Incentive is everything.

[@joeshmoe8345]

Thanks for sharing with us, Cy Guy!

[@HistorywithCy]

My pleasure, glad you enjoyed it and thanks for watching!

[@orderofazarath7609]

The title was very misleading. Would've watched video on marriage customs in Babylonia but this wasn't advertised by the title. Was actually surprised that it took a turn from the Market topic.

[@goneloko1368]

So, for your information, Babylon is in Mesopotamia. So all this talk about Mesopotamian marriage is valid to the supposed marriage market of Babylonia. Meaning there wasn't one.

[@Sarke2]

Always interesting video from you, great short analysis, i think many of this practices are still alive and active in those areas which were ancient Mesopotamia.

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed this... will do a few more short ones like this but will also be focused on longer ones as well. Thanks for watching, really appreciate it!

[@jamessell1394]

In Iranian plateau so many tribes are involved but at the end they are all following Iranian ideology as Arian which still follows in Iran .

[@jonathanbarqokasro87]

Show the large map of the country of Aram-Naharaim Syria Iraq Jordan Lebanon Southeast Turkey with all the kingdoms and their ancient cities

[@dogwhistle8836]

Really enjoyed this insight into marriage and a short video on games played in this time period, I wonder if they played any games while drinking their freshly made barely beer

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks! There's a version of the so-called Royal Game of they are believed to played, though I haven't seen a Babylonian version of it. Will let you know if I come across it. Thanks for watching!

[@DieLuftwaffel]

Im interested in theories on their clothing styles, materials, colors, production etc.

[@jimcunningham5376]

My friend Cy why did I not see these shorts until 2 months after you posted them? I am subscribed to you channel and browse KZbin every day . Looking forward to 18 dynasty of Egypt .

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks so much for the kind words and watching these videos, really appreciate viewers like you. You're in luck as the 18th Dynasty video should be out within the next 24 hours!

[@paule.158]

would you please make a program about the union of Median tribes which formed by Deioces according to Herodotus?

[@PoliticalFuturism]

Very informative video! As per usual

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it and thanks for watching!

[@Darisiabgal7573]

Important stuff.

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks for watching!

[@johnpick8336]

Fascinating video , thanks

[@yezdichikhliwala]

Hi I am new to the channel Will follow and enjoy!

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks for watching and welcome! Hope that you enjoy the content!

[@babylonkid]

All these years later and still loving your content. Good stuff Cy.

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks my friend, I thought someone with your screenname would find much of the content interesting. Thanks for watching!

[@Jimmylad.]

Wow this is super fascinating

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it and thanks for watching!

[@Jimmylad.]

@@HistorywithCy no worries your content is amazing

[@RB-we4bc]

Great format

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks! More on the way, stay tuned and thanks for watching!

[@I14Realok]

I really enjoyed this! Thank you.

[@HistorywithCy]

Glad you enjoyed it, thanks for watching!

[@haideriraqi8495]

Ancient Mesopotamia(Iraq)❤️

[@brianduffy4682]

Very impressive churning out three new topic and longer shows this past month. I am grateful!

[@Aurora.369]

Very interesting. Thank you.

[@Veriox22]

something i didnt know at all. Congrats!

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks for watching!

[@AbdulHannanAbdulMatheen]

👏😐 Very interesting. Keep up the great work

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it and thanks for watching!

[@tinalove8197]

I can believe this is actually true. That's how men treated us back then.

[@MrTNA-ml8tt]

Hopefully one day you guys will make a video of the Great Kingdom of DACIA

[@ERLong-ww7yn]

Eyewitness account of contemporary historian: "There was a marriage market..." Some guy on KZbin 4000 years later: "Let me tell you what actually happened "

[@roxannebarton9740]

The flowery belongs only to her or her children in a divorce unless she is unfaithful and then put to death...that sounds like a recipe for disaster more than protection. I can only imagine the number wives were done away with.

[@OublietteTight]

"Let's find out." 1:50 My guess is it could have existed... if fathers' had right of refusal? There are plenty of examples thru time of bride prices, dowry systems. But who your daughter married could also be be a political, trade, or security matter too.

[@OublietteTight]

Excellent presentation. Thank you. Definitely was not a random auction situation, huh? 😅

[@YadinZedek777]

What was Canaanites, Israelites, and Judeans marriage laws and ways?

[@TheManFromWaco]

The Herodotus segment was an interesting intro into the main topic, but you never fully got back to discussing if his described 'marriage market' ever occurred. Or at least, it would have been nice to have short segment at the end where, after reviewing the archaeological evidence for how marriage worked in ancient Babylon, you gave some discussion of how Herodotus might have gotten the story. Herodotus' style of "write everything down, filter nothing" certainly requires readers to take his wilder stories with a grain of salt, but I do find it difficult to believe that he could have confused a slave market for a communal marriage custom without some other factor at work.

[@johne6944]

The voice of Herodotus was righteous

[@dannyhussain5489]

Thank you very much! I tried my best haha

[@HistorywithCy]

Agreed! He'll be back for more as Herodotus will be quoted in several future videos. Thanks for watching!

[@LorolinAstori]

Why would you question it? The guy walked more than you ever will, seen more than you ever will and experienced more than you his empirical observations have stood the test of time. As far as the marriage auctions and such are attested during the Hellenistic and Hellenic times.

[@vazak11]

Interesting!

[@CliftonHicksbanjo]

Of course it did. They exist today.

[@oldsilver6035]

Yes it did exist, just a different version of harems.

[@silverchairsg]

There's one in modern day Shanghai. Parents of unmarried children go to the park and advertise their children to help them secure potential mates. It's insanely competitive in China and parents put all their eggs in one basket - their children.

[@icollectstories5702]

Wow! Such regulation! There was an English custom of wife auctions, the logic being that wives were counted as a man's chattel and therefore transferable. It was not unheard of to have the purchaser and price negotiated in advance. Since the transaction was done in public, the results were binding.

[@anishaditya4400]

That women statue literally looks like an indian doll and the dress portrayed in it looks a lot like saree... And the entire process of match making to marriage alliance and dowri is very similar to indian ways of mariage.....

[@nimmira]

more or less still like or parallel to the marriages in ME nowadays

[@sherwynlobrigo7798]

Interesting how the term dowry was misused in the present day.

[@beepboop204]

whats next, are you going to tell me that i cant trust bloggers either? 👀

[@HistorywithCy]

haha that could be a great and long video. As always, thanks for watching my friend and stay tuned for more!

[@ajw9533]

McNeal, 1988, argues that Herodotus attributed Greek marriage practices to the Babylonians.

[@h.huffen-puff4105]

Interesting.

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks, glad this was useful and thanks for watching!

[@vaspats]

Peloponessian war part 4 when

[@CharlesA2]

Your website seems to have shut down lol

[@HistorywithCy]

Yeah I'm trying to see what the issue is with it. Thanks for letting me know!

[@SobekLOTFC]

Eeeey it's new History with Cy 🙂 Hail, βασιλεύς!

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it and thanks for watching!

[@rparl]

Some time ago there was a pop song which began: If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life, never make a pretty woman your wife. But from a personal point of view, get an ugly girl to marry you. The thesis of the song was that a pretty woman was too concerned about herself but an ugly one would be devoted to you.

[@sarah37452]

The writer of that song never met a Karen then

[@ssherrierable]

Well did he write fiction and non fiction? Everyone always asks if the things he wrote about were true but what’s been proven false and what’s been proven true so far?

[@steveelliott77]

I like it!

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks!

[@TheLincolnrailsplitt]

Are you implying Herodotus made it up?

[@HistorywithCy]

I don't think Herodotus necessarily made up this up but perhaps simply heard this story and then relayed them to his audience. He often tells us when what he presents is hearsay and at times even tells us his doubts about the veracity of what he's heard. thanks for watching@

[@sweetykitty4427]

This isnt the only time herodotus gets something about babylonians very wrong. Dr Irving Finkel thinks they might have been trolling him because he was very haughty, so maybe he isn't lying on purpose x)

[@hamentaschen]

"I'm gonna go get the papers, get the papers."

[@GnosticInformant]

Gold guarding Griffins, One Eyed Hyperboreans, and gold digging Ants.. Why not a marriage market?

[@elliottprats1910]

But the gold digging ants was true, he covered that topic 3 years ago or so

[@HistorywithCy]

@@elliottprats1910ah you remember that podcast ... one of my first, thrilled you still remember it! Thanks for watching!

[@elliottprats1910]

@@HistorywithCy I’ve learned so much from you over the years and enjoy all the content that you produce.

[@danyelnicholas]

Thank you! So the answer is, no, Herodotus (the « father of history ») is actually the mother of libel.

[@hannotn]

No surprise that even at the dawn of civilisation women were treated with far more respect than any of the Abrahamic religions ever have.

[@okkj1878]

Based

[@robijnbruinsma4489]

I wonder if someone got annoyed with a certain very inquisitive Greek visitor and decided to have a little innocent fun.

[@Swissbluemountain]

This is what happening today . Just behind seins .

[@juniorthomas6404]

Peloponnesian war part 4? The world wonders

[@HistorywithCy]

It's in the works...thanks for watching!

[@JBarbarosa]

In other words, from the earliest times and first civilizations, there has never been a male favouring patriarchy!!! The patriarchy ALWAYS was in favour of women and protected them and have them privileges that far exceeded anything that men had access to. Men have ALWAYS been at a disadvantage

[@nomanor7987]

Isn’t this what happens today with women selling themselves on Tinder and Hinge, looking for the richest chads?

[@AlbertaGeek]

Calm down, incel.

[@fnansjy456]

Not at all

[@geraldmeehan8942]

Thanks for the video Cy. Sounds like a poor man"s chance for a rich wife wasn't much better in the ancient world, lol.

[@HistorywithCy]

You're welcome, glad you enjoyed it! haha some things never change with time. Thanks for watching!

[@benmoi3390]

well today it's the same... if you are in a couple but without a contract, you are not considered married by the eyes of the laws... well in Canada that's how it is. so there isn't much difference there.

[@davidgavary9022]

Why the heaven on Earth is related to Herodotus, he is a lier but there is a translated tablet in English over the marriage laws in Assyria/Babylon but not in Sumeria the Assyrians' ancestors.

[@muhammetaliakcakoca9871]

we want new egypt episodes please

[@HistorywithCy]

On the way! The next one is on Dynasty 18 and it's a longer one. Stay tuned and thanks for watching!

[@muhammetaliakcakoca9871]

@@HistorywithCysoo thank you cy

[@carriekelly4186]

How completely miserable! Thanks Cy😊

[@HistorywithCy]

Glad you found it interesting, thanks for watching!

[@ironboley]

Better than our marriage laws today 🤣

[@amostroyfreeman9422]

Please kindly do a video about: "What was considered as a resolution and survival of legal texts in Mesopotamia ?" 🥹🥹🥹🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼pliiiiz i beg🙏🏼 this question has failed everyone myself inclusive, all of us are just answering: clay tablets, code of hammurabi, cuneiform, but the quiz setter still says no yet by all means i need to win this quiz because it will help me pliz help me brother🙏🏼🥹

[@henkstersmacro-world]

👍👍👍

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks for watching!

[@r-d_oh_dubb_gg7748]

Can anyone give me some good history channels

[@mikejones215]

Where We're All The Parents. L 😎 L

[@opaljha8914]

More on polygamy in royalty

[@khllkhn]

Interesting but Plutarch considered Herodotus the father of lies.

[@miguelatkinson]

But does that mean everything he written was a lie tho

[@mintoo2cool]

mail order bride .. a bronze age custom .. damn!

[@sanichiffon716]

🇮🇶 now u can the obsession why US ends up there. Shout out to King Nebuchadnezzar ll 😎

[@freddiejackson594]

Don’t get caught up

[@dadevi]

If they were slaves, Herodotus would have said so.

[@AvidanTheExpositor]

hippity hoppity!

[@giftedfooljjhg1981thepasmb]

Yes and the women in it were genetically engineered appearing as adults but with the mind of a child