Did these Star Wars ships last WAY too long?

Star Wars has some ship classes last a very, very long time, and today we're going to talk about some of the ones which lasted longest, both as a clas like the Hammerhead, and in specific instances.
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#starwars #lore

[@jameslewis2635]

Having older, large military vessels essentially 'dry docked' and used as attractions is a pretty realistic. There are many 'museum ships' around the world and I even heard of an attempt to buy an old World War 2 vessel and turn that into a casino so that checks out. The same goes for these ships finding themselves in civilian hands and being re-purposed for transport, trade or freight (at least in the short to medium term) as I believe that did happen in the age of sail, if not in the modern era. My problem is that keeping them in service as active military vessels is highly unrealistic in itself over more than a few decades. The march of progress tends to make things obsolete (even factoring in upgrades) to the point where it costs less to design and build a new ship class than it would to bring an older fleet up to date and the space constraints in older vessels usually work against the installation of modern systems alongside issues of what they need in terms of supporting structures (networking, electrical supply, sensor hook-ups, etc).

[@parkerdixon-word6295]

For all I love KotOR, I actually put the blame for different eras of Star Ears feeling stagnant pretty definitively at the feet of that game. A criticism at how a game I adore interacted with the larger setting. Because earlier stories in the New Sith Wars era, namely the Tales of the Jedi comics, actually *did* try to give that era a different aesthetic and feel within Star Wars, something more pulp 80s, Flash Gordon/John Carter of Mars than the aesthetics of the Original Trilogy era, which did a lot to make the Old Republic at the time feel like a bygone, high-fantasy era of Star Wars, distinct from the "modern" era of the setting, and even if the aesthetic isn't my personal favorite, I appreciate what yhe difference does for the setting as a whole. And while KotOR was more than happy to reference those stories, particularly with Canderous and Jolee Bindo's backstories and on Korriban, they made the visual language much more in-line with the movies, specifically with the then-recent Phantom Menace. And while that aesthetic actually worked really well for KotOR, and they did manage to still make those games feel like *somewhat* of a high-fantasy era of Star Wars, what with the ancient magic ruins and occasional bout of dragonslaying (the studio was coming hot off the heels of making d&d games, after all), KotOR *Wanted* to feel in-line with the aesthetic of the movies, wanted to feel more like them than different, which served the individual game well at the expense of the parger continuity and setting, IMO. And look ehat they had to do to Basilisk War Droids in the sequel to keep the aesthetic in line. Look how they massacred our weird pulpy sci-fi boys!

[@mattwilson8298]

The 17th Alsakan conflict. Yeah, they rebelled a few times 😂

[@patricknakasone9376]

Some designs are just fundamentally very solid. They can be easily upgraded and refitted.

[@williammagoffin9324]

There are only two capital starship types in Star Wars: pie wedge (which may expand out to include up to the entire pie) and toob (which may include multiple toobs or flattened toobs). Of course ships are going to look alike even over thousands of years because everyone has already worked out the optimal design for everything. New ships just fit more or better stuff in the same old efficient hull designs.

[@inquisitorgarza312]

The Hammerhead is actually a very impressive design considering that the Legacy era used the same principles of putting their weapons up front of the ship.

[@TheTb2364]

It's pretty much a dedicated ship of the line, meant for fighting within large fleets in huge battles. In kotor comics we actually see them used that way, with heavy emphasis on fleet coordination. They'd probably suck for patrol and anti-guerrilla duties.

[@homeonegreen9]

The US Navy has used the same DDG design and CCG for a long time. And the new Ford class CVN is largely identical to the Nimitz. I could advanced enough technology stagnating because needs stabilize and physics is a brick wall. Steel sword, bow and arrow, and steel armor was fairly stable for a long time.

[@homeonegreen9]

There is also a distinct "look" to USN ships that the Navy enforces.

[@Alpha_Digamma]

Just look at what tech they can put into a tiny starfighter in the OT X-Wing has 4 Laser cannons, 2 proton torpedo launchers, a shield generator and a hyperdrive while the Aurek just has to laser cannons. The TIE-Defender csn mount even more stuff including a tractor beam of all things. The TIE-Fighter on the other hand is way more akin to the age old Aurek. So tech does improve over the ages. It's just a question of wether you want to pay all that money for a single starfighter.

[@jaanikaapa6925]

The thing with the really long service ages is that that at that point the ship is no longer the same. It's been upgraded, changed, refitted over the centuries. It might have started life as something but now is completely different.

[@reversemudkip8798]

I love the invincible. Something about the design

[@r3dbaron113]

Me too, man, I have a headcanon that the CSA crews lovingly call them tin cans

[@Spartan120]

I definitely like the usage of old/ancient ships as a storytelling device. They have so much potential in the Star Wars universe. We could have side stories tracking the oldest vessels in the galaxy as they change hands through the eras. Heck, the Millennium Falcon is kinda like that already. It'd also be nice if the Ebon Hawk returned. Or there could be a subplot in a future Jedi Survivor game where Cal finds an old Aurek fighter and uses Psychometry to experience the thousands of years of service it's been through.

[@jm329]

The book Millennium Falcon by James Luceno does that.

[@jakethomson531]

A real world aircraft was designed in the late 1940s and enter survise in 1952 the B-52 bomber and has been upgraded and updated to today and is expected to remain in surve to the 2040s

[@homeonegreen9]

The Buff is forever, he will be equipped with warp engines and rearrange the topography of alien planets.

[@Wastelandman7000]

Also look at blue water naval hulls. They have changed very little since WWI, and would be recognizable to people from the Spanish American War era. Militaries generally don't change things unless they have too, because its easier to get a conventional hull built than some unproven new technology.

[@AshesinJuly]

Lakers on the great lakes can last for a century or longer in service. Hulls can last a really long time when corrosion isn't a big factor.

[@Jfk2Mr]

Another one is An-2/Y-5 (NATO name "Colt") - production started in 1949, possibly still in production and use - as always, Chinese sources are bad

[@cumunist2120]

i expect it to be in service for around 10000 years

[@Vidiocity92]

I guess Star Wars technology is based on "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

[@lordnorj]

As well as "future proofing" and "Ragnarok proof".

[@Jedi_Spartan]

I wonder if the presence of the Hammerhead and Aurek classes at the New Sith Wars (if they are the same class instead of their equivalents of the X-Wing series) could hint at the level of desperation of the Old Republic at that point in history given how the little we know about the New Sith Wars present the Republic as basically getting the s*** kicked out of it for 1000 years so perhaps they were forced to rely on whatever naval relics they could find and still worked in order to even put up a fight against the last of the Sith factions anywhere outside of the Core Worlds still under Republic control.

[@Jfk2Mr]

You mean ravaging storages with antiques, because everything better was already used up in nuking the other side to proverbial stone age? I mean, it fits both sides

[@TY-km8hj]

It's the exact same kinda thing we have in the real world with tanks. Soviet T72s are still used today cos even tho they're older, they're still an effective tank, especially when refurbished with modern equipment. Now ofc theres a massive difference between decades and millennia going by but i always took these designs within star wars to just be them looking at what worked in the past and then making a modern version rather than using ships from thousands of yrs ago unless its outright stated to be the case. Even a lot of real nations now that make their own tanks are using the chassis, both literally and in a design sense, of other tanks, some being quite old by todays standard

[@FancyPirate1]

During the age of sail there were several ships that served for decades, if not over a century, such as HMS Prince/Royal William

[@josiahshangrila7322]

Another good example is the Kandosii. Sourcebooks establish both that it is originally a Fenelar design perhaps 3000 years old by the Mandalorian Wars, and that it has been completely redesigned and is packed with modern subsystems from a variety of sources.

[@caamasijedi49]

Ship design irl can be both stagnant and revolutionary. Sailing ships had the same design principles, and looked similar to each other for hundreds of years, but a first rate ship of the line in the 17th or early 18th century wouldn't compare to a first rate in the early 19th century as technology evolved. Sailing ships would be torn down to the frames and rebuilt, renewing a useful but old ship. Likewise, in modern ship building designs have evolved from their predecessor design and can be hard to distinguish. For example, many Imperial Russian Navy battleships were evolutions of previous designs, with improvements as needed, because it was easier for Russia to prepare and build something known versus a brand new design. Imperial Germany sold older pre-dreadnought battleships to the Ottoman Empire, who then used them in the Balkan Wars. The Ticonderoga class cruiser was a modification of a Spruance class destroyer. My ultimate point is that Star Wars ships either looking the same (but being a different or evolved design) or being the same ships is surprisingly realistic when compared to real world practice.

[@FancyPirate1]

You can just compare an early first rate, like Sovereign of the Seas, and a late first rate, like HMS Caledonia, and see that while they did change, evolve and grow in size, they stayed fairly similar for a very long period of time

[@kR-qj7rw]

the pipeline of knowledge of star wars goes like this : low level, omg so futuristic Mid level (where most people on the internet are at AND the ones youll hear the most often) : OMG THESE SUCK THERES NO TECH PROGRESSION its garbage High Level: oh there is tech progression so futuristic

[@tTaseric]

IMO as long as a story offers some cool, original designs I'm okay with them using other designs just for familiarities sake. SWTOR for example having derivative designs for the Sith Empire's ships and everything in the Republic is more than fine with me cus of how much effort was put into giving the Eternal Empire unique and distinctive designs for everything.

[@e.corellius4495]

the new sith wars at least they may very well have been the same ship. the new sith wars were a 1000 year dark age where half the galaxy adopted feudalism. falling back to cheap reliable ship classes to build rather than designing new ones makes sense. though due to new and changing continuity maybe it would have made more sense to use the Thranta's but they didn't exist yet in concept same concept though, and there is an argument that the smaller hammerhead was just cheaper and easier to mass produce during that time of perpetual crisis.

[@barnettmcgowan8978]

You had me at the Ship of Theseus.

[@paulmetzgar2604]

The bigger the hull, the more space you have to work with. The exterior might be the same, but the interior could have been completely gutted and reworked. It is easier for a backwater world to rip out and upgrade systems than it is to assemble a new airtight hull.

[@frankieM_]

I mean, the Cessna 172 (the most produced aircraft in the world) was originally produced in 1956, and they're still being made by Cessna

[@dhaburuk6494]

I was just thinking about this last week, glad I'm not alone. Thanks for doing all the soaking in lore / research to answer all my questions.

[@Epicnazgulslayer]

Why is the Invincible class still in use? It's invincible, the clue is in the name!

[@Sephiroth144]

But does blood splatter on it every time the ship class is named...?

[@majesticmsfc]

They're probably just inspired by them, sorta like the Victory Star Destroyer and Imperial Star Destroyer sharing similar style but different sizes etc.

[@RayHardman7567]

It's like the Delta or ISD. The Delta we see in AOTC wasn't designed for combat, though it did have some canons. The Delta 7B we see in the clone wars, the only thing different that is noticeable, is the placement of the astromech slot from the side, to directly in front. It also has better engines, slightly thicker armor, and more powerful canons. The ISD to the ISD II class, is essentially the same thing. Only difference we see is the quad, quad turbo lasers were swapped from the quad, dual laser. And that the shield generators were placed on top of the superstructure.

[@corrinestenman5683]

I always figured that the likes of the Aureks and Hammerheads were designs that were easily iterated on and updated, with shipbuilders coming up with new versions of the same series on a regular basis, and individual ships usually having a service life measured in decades. I also assumed "Battle Dragon" was largely the name of the type/role of warship the Hapans favored for their main capital ship, and the actual designs had changed wildly over the years (hell, I can definitely imagine some older designs looking particularly draconic). Edit: I also figure that a lot of the long-serving individual ships (especially big capital ships) were designs that were built with ease of upgrading in mind.

[@randomusernameCallin]

In an enviroment that have fewer restrictions, I can see many design not changing that much.

[@RocketChickArt1]

Personally I always saw it as a aesthetic choice with new technology For its in universe explanation. So saying that the design is well enough and functional as it is we just need to update it with the most current technology (Sometimes they do that in like Gundam; where they would have an old mobile suit, aesthetically with current technology parts)

[@emmamacfarlane8137]

Star Wars being the ‘space wizard’ franchise is why tech evolves so slowly. It’s a fantasy setting and it’s the same reason why most fantasy settings settle into the late mediaeval and never change

[@sambridgers9543]

Good point.

[@ninjalectualx]

Boo Doylian explanations

[@maxrander0101]

the Kotor era had an external docking section under its rear sloping section it was like the ones used by later era ships to store a few fighters

[@shuyuei6448]

Can't believe I'm this early, also would love an update on Revans revenge. Can't wait for it. Genuinely would pay for it by itself.

[@KingsandGenerals]

Wait, this is not a video about romantic pairings? What a disgusting clickbait.

[@redleaderantilles1263]

I think that version of the video is patreon-exclusive

[@ValDraper]

Kings and Generals on a SW lore video? My day is made! 😭

[@alfieingrouille1528]

😂😂

[@Arashmickey]

The real ship was the casino warships we made along the way.

[@TLhikan]

We need the Winter and Ackbar breakdown Corey.

[@igncom1]

I think the old republic stuff kinda just fucks everything up by having way too similar technology to the clone wars and galactic civil war. Without the old republic stuff, technology seems to progress relatively nicely.

[@redleaderantilles1263]

God the Valor-class model looks so good!!

[@sulljoh1]

There's 100% technological progress in Star Wars But it's frustratingly slow compared to Trek or real life. That idea is a bit depressing

[@james8449100]

It always feels like there stuck is a rock paper scissors cycle that has lasted for years

[@StarryDrukhari]

Given the time scales involved, I've always believed that Star Wars should be more Warhammer 40k and less Star Trek in its depiction of technological progress.

[@Wastelandman7000]

Once you've got a ship building pipeline set up its not easy to change. You're talking about having to retool your entire shipyard to change hull designs. Its much easier to simply upgrade interior systems and make minor tweaks to the hull design. Other than a few hydroplane or catamaran hulls most blue water navies on our world use a lower hull that hasn't changed that much since the Spanish American War. Superstructures are starting to change because of the need for radar stealth. But, most navies still use superstructures that are not that different from WWI. Why? They work. Its also worth noting that most militaries are very conservative about equipment and like to stick with proven designs.They have an, "If it ain't broke why fix it?" attitude.

[@heavyarms55]

Even in the cases of ships that DID serve for this long, I always assumed they were being constantly refit with more modern technology. It's way smaller scale - but we see that irl too. Ships and equipment are often retrofit with newer tech all the time.

[@wedgeantillies66]

Having these ships start out as top of the line battleships and as time goes along. Due to the designs being so successful, not at all surprising to see them continue in service after refits and modernisation programs. Before down graded in lower class military vessels, fall into civilian hands ort become museum or junk yard pieces. Heck hammerhead design starts off as a capital warship of the old republic and by the time of the empire, is still around and gone through many iterations that it it is being used as a corvette class by the rebel alliance.

[@timthorson52]

Star wars technology is somewhat stagnant, but not completely, they are always making improvements and refinements, but they tend to be marginal improvements. Basically, technology can only get pushed so far. You can only make a microchip so compact before it cannot get any smaller, we are near to hitting that limit now. We may push into a new technology, like quantum computing, but that will have its limits. Every technology will have some limit, and you can not infinitely improve things. Each subsequent technology will likely be harder to incent than the previous one. Someone may invent a better weapon, but it's unlikely to be several times as good as the current technology. Apply this to civilizations with 20,000+years of development and it appears stagnant. However, things will be somewhat better in general after a thousand years, even if the old one is still capable of doing the task. Maybe weapons are 50%better, or less? Anyway, aside from that, people like being inspired by old things. We build many structures inspired by ancient buildings, we enjoy traditions. Sure we innovate and also have brand new designs, but we keep bringing back some old ones. If we had companies 10,000 years old doing similar things as they used to do they might keep reinventing old things to remind us how long they've been in business and served us well in the past. Besides, they can likely dig up all the original plans for it, see if old technology can be improved with a few simple new developments. Makes the cost to develop slightly cheaper when you have a database with thousands of years of design work.

[@nuancedhistory]

Well the hangar problem is simple, because the Hammerhead isn't 315 meters (It's 354 in KOTOR and around 455 in the comics) and 90% of the stats in the KOTOR Campaign Guide are garbage that should be ignored.

[@CoreysDatapad]

That doesn't make the side strut capable of having a hangar, and doesn't make the game have a spot with a hangar on it. The hangar problem has absolutely nothing to do with the campaign guide.

[@nuancedhistory]

@@CoreysDatapad honestly the best idea I've seen for the KOTOR model is the the extra armored "bump" on top of the neck slides back revealing an Aurek-sized launch pad, which is just about the right size to work. SWTOR put the hangar in the same place as Knight Errant but above, rather than below, the tapering leading edge of the "wing" that runs up the sides of the hull/neck. But it's also the result of kitbashing the crashed Hammerhead with one of their transport models (SWTOR's Hammerhead is also massive, in the 560 meter range).

[@Littlemilkjug533]

In a faster than light traveling universe technology should be stagnant. They already hit a type of pinnacle. Edit: This is one of my problems with the sequels. They want us to believe that post empire there was huge technological jump.

[@Jedi_Spartan]

For the first part: maybe an in universe explanation for that could be giving Hyperspace its own equivalent to 'Speed of Light' which scientists in universe theorise to be impossible to go beyond which in turn would explain why space faring civilisation is limited to just the main Galaxy and (to a lesser extent) the nearby satellite galaxies... although that would require Hyperspace travel times to even have a hint of consistency (something else the Sequels hate).

[@tTaseric]

I think there is a steady technological progression between the 3 trilogies. Like, across the prequels and into the Clone Wars, then into the Empire / OT there's a very clear progression with ships and fighters getting better. The 'problem' with the sequels is that we haven't really seen that same progression, we skip straight ahead to all the cool new stuff. Imagine if we went from seeing Acclamators in Attack of the Clones, then skip all the way to the Executor Class in Empire Strikes Back, that's the same kinda jump in my opinion.

[@Spectacular_Insanity]

I mean, if the hulls themselves are fine, then updating the engines, power systems, electronics, computers, and armament complement repeatedly over time isn’t really out of the question. That happens IRL with modern cruiser retrofits and similar programs.

[@Crowbars357]

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. That’s how weapons and vehicle development work, and why we still use the M2 Browning despite it being a World War 1 Era design. Radical changes in design usually aren’t common unless it’s during a time of experimentation, such as a war, where they need to find a solution to a particular problem. The older designs are likely upgraded and have derivatives.

[@benjackson8731]

I feel a combination of if it aint broke and proud heritage is at play here. Why try something vastly different when you have a basic shap thats withstood the test of time. Sure systems and features can be upgraded/updated, but that won't really change the look.

[@williamnelson5549]

So massdrivers are just weapons that launch asteroids? I thought they used other physical munitions like explosive rounds and stuff

[@CoreysDatapad]

Mass drivers are anything that, well, drive mass. That mass may be a bullet, asteroid, divorce papers, anything really.

[@williamnelson5549]

@@CoreysDatapad lmao okay sweet

[@olindetroit7636]

IRL, imagine us still sailing the sea with ships from the Roman empire. In the star wars universe, they invented some form of technology and for some reason just stop developing anything new for thousands of years. They are stuck in that mindset "if it's not broken, don't fix it"🫤

[@DarkVaati13]

8:50 lmao

[@jm329]

The Republic was stagnant so technology was as well.

[@loganthrasher4702]

Well that word slip on Hapes makes for something interesting?

[@DarthVages]

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