Did we make an error with the Triangular Array?

[@don_n5skt]

Every time I watch this I learn something new. I really want to do this on 12m. I am slowly building up the equipment.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

OK Don... Shout if you are short of "stuff"..

[@JayN4GO]

Everyone loves John. So brilliant

[@FromthehamshackwithNJ4Z]

Thanks... !

[@fm71450]

Dear Commander Callum & John, thank you for this. My brain is spinning. But, I love that you are willing to share the critical aspects/inputs for this project. For the now, at our home, we will play with slightly less complex antennas. Still working for Great DX experiences. Best Wishes, KQ4IXD

[@FromthehamshackwithNJ4Z]

That is the best part of experimentation, there is always an opportunity to learn, even though sometimes it is learning what not to do.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Our pleasure!

[@AndyAAzeroAM]

This is such a fun project. Learning so much through the process. I used a 75° Delay. I've made 45 and 60 but haven't played with them yet. It's really cool flipping the switch and hearing the change. You Can almost see the directional change in your mind.. my only regret is living in a winter wonderland. I put it up and 48 hours later winter decided to show up. Took her down out of caution because I have lot of time invested in it for snow and wetness to muck it up. 😅

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Sounds good.. Yes, protect your investment. Thanks for the encouragement.

[@KK6USYHamRadioAdventures]

This great guys, I hope to someday do something like this for 40m. I hope to meet John this year in Orlando and maybe talk about it some. Thanks to you both!!

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Sounds great!

[@FromthehamshackwithNJ4Z]

KK6USY I will be in Orlando.

[@MM0OPXFieldRadio]

I agree with John, everything needs to be exact as it can be. Both antennas mechanically identical and when you tune these you cut for ZERO Reactance X=0 (or as close as) as to ensure both are identically tuned. For all coax lines I tuned as per Johns explanation. If you trim too much it goes into minus and you have went too far. The wiring inside your phasing box will effect this too. Its a shame that Justin KG2RG seems to have deleted his YT channel as it has it mastered with a number of vids documenting it. I will dig out my phased kit and remeasure and get it set up again soon. The magical bit for me wasn't the gain but the switchable front/back. of course its just 2 verticals I have but have it 3 way switched. Tested it QRO too and no issues as I was worried about the relays. I used 40a SPDT car relays. Cheap as chips.

[@SCTaylorTX]

Please bring it back out in some videos! I have a parasitic setup, wanting to learn and try a phased array!

[@MM0OPXFieldRadio]

@@SCTaylorTX I have a phased vertical antenna playlist in my channel, you can check that out just now.

[@SCTaylorTX]

@@MM0OPXFieldRadio found it. Fantastic!

[@MM0OPXFieldRadio]

@@SCTaylorTX lots of watching. Note im doing 1/8th wave spacing. A design from on4un book.

[@SCTaylorTX]

Great, thanks! I have just over 1/8 wave to setup. Currently have a parasitic (a la Cal) pointing toward y'all in the UK but want to try the phased. Caught your videos on the box & 20m setups today, great work! @@MM0OPXFieldRadio

[@dondonaldson1684]

Excellent discussion of complex impedance math as it relates to physical placement of each element and effective length of delay lines based on velocity factor.

[@FromthehamshackwithNJ4Z]

I will be doing something on antenna math soon, either on my channel or maybe Callum will have me back and we can go a little deeper on the maths.

[@dondonaldson1684]

Looking forward to it, John. I will look for your channel.

[@michaelpolimer2128]

G/M Gentlemen and Callum (hi hi) ............Mike, K1FNX here.......not throwing rocks, but you carefully cut 1/8 inch bits off your coax to tune it just so, and then connect it up to a very nice DC distribution box which adds all kinds of uncontrolled lengths and impedance discontinuities. you need to do an RF design for the box and then trim your lines thru it, keeping the lines with the three signal paths........ you also need some kind of matching network between the box and the radio which is of course frequency dependent.......a tuner out at the feed line termination point solves that problem.........my 2 shillings.............73 from New England where it's 16 degrees in old money Mike K1FNX near Boston

[@FromthehamshackwithNJ4Z]

Thank you sincerely for the 2 schillings, you give a great explanation. I know you are not throwing rocks here. I freely admit when I initially designed the box, I was naive to much of this. A two-element phased array and a three-element triangular array are two very different animals and complexity of the design is at least an order of magnitude in difference. What works exceptionally well for a two element thanks to the work of Mr. Christman, does not work as well with third element thrown in. Is this design the best way to do this, NO. Is it the most effective way, NO... does it work, and is it inexpensive, to some extent yes. You are correct in all of your statements regarding the proper design. The internal of the box, all the connecting cables we kept equal, but they still have an effect on the current division and the length of the true delay. An adjustable LC circuit within the box will help with the overall match for the system. I am working though the issues for a gen 2 box, to keep it a multiband box. Tuning the cables through the box, feed lines and delay lines will help some. The biggest trick finding a point where all three feedline voltages are equal in magnitude, that trick involves a whole next level of skills.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Mike, yes - John knows this.. This is a cheap, easy to make and have fun with toy. SUre, John can find another dB one day - but it's a superb learning experience not just for us - but for the rest of the community. See title of the video! :)

[@brianfields4479]

My swedish friend tested the phased against the parasitic, only 1 S point difference, but loads more work on the phased ant.

[@g3rcq]

Hi Callum did you include the spreadsheet that John was using? if not was he just converting 60 degrees back to a quarter wave and then cutting the coax to that quarter wave frequency - thanks Dave

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Yes - exactly... I will find the spreadsheet and put it up for download. Sorry about that.

[@davidsheedy5793]

great video, does orientation of the radials have much effect, in other words, can the radials ovelap?

[@DXCommanderHQ]

They could do but it would be a bit of a waste.. Probably best to join them.

[@W4TRI_Ronny]

Knew I should save this very long reel of RG11! Mine has that messenger cable on it that may have to be shaved a bit. Great stuff!

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Keep it! (not sure about the messenger cable though! LOL)

[@W4TRI_Ronny]

Is John going to sell the boxes built? I will be up for one soon if so. If not is there a BOM and plans? Thanks 73

[@FromthehamshackwithNJ4Z]

K4RJJ send me an e-mail and I can send you a schematic for the box, if you want to play with it. Again, it works and is switchable and gives some gain and front to back. It a fun experiment and fun build. Is it the best design for the application no, as evidenced in our conversation and the comments below.

[@klartajanssen4368]

Hopefully the 3 dummy loads have the same impedance. When cutting the coax length at differences of 1 ohm.😊

[@DXCommanderHQ]

When cutting the coax looking for the low Z, don't use the dummy load..

[@g0fvt]

It is dependent on how many degrees of delay, a 270 degree delay for example is effectively a 90 degree advance. Scribble a wave on a scrap of paper, Callum whiteboard style. Cutting a quarterwave is actually easy WITH NO TEST EQUIPMENT the 60 degree section is trickier so you scale the frequency up by 1.5 for testing.

[@MM0OPXFieldRadio]

I made an excel calculator for this. For the delay line I converted it to what the 1/4 wave frequency would be on a different frequency making it easy (I call it a check frequency). that way it was easy to trim on an analyser or NanoVNA. I need to get my phased verticals out again and try it.

[@g0fvt]

@@MM0OPXFieldRadio nowadays I do have an analyser and a VNA, but in the past I have tuned quarterwave stubs with a receiver and a T-piece. It works very well, the open circuit quarterwave will give a surprisingly deep notch at your "check frequency". Try it, perhaps with a VHF radio listening to a local repeater. (So you only screw up a short bit of cable).

[@eazystreet5507]

What is the pattern if the two are not connected just reflectors? Not worth it?

[@FromthehamshackwithNJ4Z]

When I set this up as a parasitic array... the best performance came when using one element as a reflector as opposed to using 2. The direction of Gain will be opposite the reflector unlike the delay line phasing technique. We had great success in using this in a parasitic set up, just a bit of effort to turn the array. Good Luck and happy experimenting.

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Good reply from John..!

[@eazystreet5507]

@@FromthehamshackwithNJ4Z So two are connected and 1 is reflected ok how far should they be from each other 1/2 wave?

[@FromthehamshackwithNJ4Z]

@@eazystreet5507 it is an equilateral triangle 1/4 wavelength on each side of the triangle.

[@srinivasnyayapathi9083]

WOW, interesting👌

[@DXCommanderHQ]

Thanks!

[@adyg6ad73]

After watching this my head hurts. I’d just get a yagi 😂

[@FromthehamshackwithNJ4Z]

Understandable... My head hurt just doing that math... although with a YAGI comes all the problems of how to support that beastie! cheers !

[@K8URChannel]

When you go on 80M, use 3795 where US DX are please.

[@davidc5027]

haha.. those glasses are distracting :) Am I watching Sir Elton John.. lol

[@davidmunn4954]

Johns glasses are not distracting 😂😂😂😂

[@robertallbright]

Very interesting Thankyou 73 Rob G3RCE