Did you know this about PDA? | Pathological Demand Avoidance

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PDA or Pathological Demand Avoidance is a concept first conceived in the 1980s to describe autistic or autistic-like children who have an irrational need to refuse even everyday, normal requests and popularised by the parents of autistic children. This was around the time of the DSM-3, the setting of the first Back to the Future film. So much has happened since then - is PDA still a useful label even if it isn't clinically recognised?
This video, the first to discuss PDA directly, discusses the perspectives relating to the history of PDA, the controversy of its development, and a discussion on where PDA goes next.
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🔗 Relevant Links:
PDA Society's What Is PDA booklet
www.pdasociety.org.uk/wp-cont...
National Autism Society on PDA:
www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-...
PDA trends: trends.google.com/trends/expl..."Pathological Demand Avoidance"&hl=en-GB
Examining the relationship between anxiety and pathological demand avoidance in adults: a mixed methods approach:
www.frontiersin.org/articles/...
Pathological demand avoidance syndrome: a necessary distinction within the pervasive developmental disorders: (Archives of Disease in Childhood journal)
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12818...
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👨‍⚖️ Disclaimer:
I am not a healthcare professional or psychotherapist. If you are watching this and feel that you need immediate mental health support, please see the list of mental health helplines at HelpGuide.org here:
www.helpguide.org/find-help.htm
If you have met one autistic (and or ADHD) person, you have met one person. This is a spectrum condition, and many traits may be different, or have alternative explanations for your symptoms. If in doubt, refer to a psychologist, and not a KZbinr.
Self-diagnosis is valid!
--
Chapters:
00:00 The Origins of PDA
04:00 The PDA Society
04:30 Pathological?
06:00 Demand Avoidance
12:00 An Autistic Explanation - when it's NOT PDA
18:20 Three Examples of NOT PDA
18:30 Alternative Explanation - Double Empathy Problem
20:04 Alternative Explanation - Morals
20:53 Alternative Explanation - Sensory
21:30 Undiagnosed Autistic People
22:00 Pervasive Drive for Autonomy
23:58 JASPER THE CAT

[@miaowmiaow1831]

Such a good video with brilliant insights. You really made me think about PDA in a much clearer way. It being a reflection of a more stressed/poorly supported autistic trying to limit the stressors they are exposed to makes so much sense. I think the double empathy problem is a huge factor in the problems with PDA as a disorder or profile. I think the lack of autistic people's inner experiences in autistic research that has occurred over the years has led to analysis of outward behaviours and how the affect the people around the autistic individual, while not adequately exploring the autistic person's inner experience. Additionally, the uninformed neurotypical tendency to view autistic people as robots who generate unexpected or inconvenient outputs, given a certain input, as if we're doing so automatically and not having a true, human, emotional response greatly contributes to this problem. I The question of whether avoiding a given demand is pathological or not is an interestingg one. Pathological for who? It seems like the focus has been more on it being pathological for those around the autistic person than than the autistic person themselves. If we take, as an example, a young child who refuses to go to school, one could observe that: 1. It is of detriment to the parents, who will be concerned that their child is missing out on an education, as well as risks of consequences such as fines or prosecution, affecting the parents, depending on where they live. 2. It is detrimental to the child because they will miss out on an education. 3. It is also of benefit to the child because it prevents them from being exposed to whatever stressors are troubling them. We could then argue that: 1. This is pathological because it is detrimental to the parents/wider society. 2. It is pathological because it is detrimental to the child. 3. It is not pathological because it is a normal response to stress. Taking only the two arguments that directly affect the child, which is it? Is it pathological or not? I can certainly see an argument here for saying it is pathological because a child being so stressed by something that is considered normal by most of society, such as school, that they avoid attending, is a societal problem. We have an obligation to educate our children so that they have the best chance of a good life and we are badly letting them down if we do not do that. Also, uneducated people create a "problem" for society if they don't learn how to function in the world. However, perhaps this is only a problem in the current model of society. Perhaps what is missing is a great big extra piece of societal and infrastructural hardware that fits the needs of autistic people. When autistic people are in the right environment for their individual needs, (often achieved by persistently striving for autonomy), they often feel better, less stressed and much happier. A very simple example could be organisations allowing email contact rather than only phonecalls. Some autistic people may find a phonecall too stressful and therefore avoid making an important call, such as to their doctor, for example, appearing to be demand avoidant in this instance. However, given a an alternative that is sufficiently more comfortable to them, they may feel happy to do so and not appear avoidant at all. Equally, a neurotypical person may find engaging in their special interest for 10 hours straight, with no breaks, no social interaction, and not leaving the house, too demanding and unpleasant and therefore would avoid doing this. So maybe whether or not something is pathological dependes on your perspective. More and more I think that the reason autism is labelled as a social disability is due to the non-autistic society;' unwilingness to see anything supposedly 'other' as acceptable and in this way, we are disabled by them. Don't we all (neurotypical and autistic) have a persistent drive for autonomy to some degree? We all want to do the thingd that make us feel happy, safe, comfortable, free from pain, fear etc. I think the more we in the autistic comunity can do to explain our personal inner experiences to the world, te ore autism will beceom better understood by non-autistics, and hopefully this will pave the wyfor societthe societal changes and supports that are so badly lacking for so many of us. Videos like yours go a long way to improving understanding of PDA and autism in general and it's so good to come across content like yours as a fellow late diagnosed autistic.

[@Autistic_AF]

Hey, Miaow (got twelve cats here [check the channel banner!] - I love your username!). Fully agree. And this part you've written is literally my mission statement: " I think the more we in the autistic community can do to explain our personal inner experiences to the world, the more autism will become better understood by non-autistics, and hopefully this will pave the way for societal changes and supports that are so badly lacking for so many of us". +1 +1 +all the ones. Thanks for being here, and for your kind words. - Mike

[@lezbyanke777]

what is so "pathological" about avoiding the demands of a sick society? I support calling it Pervasive Demand for Autonomy

[@ivymoon5084]

Honestly

[@angieniger]

Good point! Why do we have to use words like pathological or comorbidity etc it’s so negative and not really accurate. People are just different, not sick or anything like that

[@angieniger]

And yes! It’s society that is sick and we as part of that society we need to change our ways and change people’s negative views

[@seleneavalle1207]

I always had problems with authority and following instructions. That gave me problems with my parents who were violent during my childhood. Now I struggle to follow requests from my boss and I always cancel appointments, I really hate it. It's makes me feel so upset. I tend to lie making excuses, I'm not proud of that.

[@Autistic_AF]

Thanks, Selene. I can relate to that, too. -Mike

[@sarahswetlik1034]

Hi, pardon me but can you think of anything that would help you to be able to follow directions easier? I'm asking for my kid. She's not as good at masking as I was. I usually did stuff to shut the authority up but I did fight against my mom(which I feel terrible about) but I just wish I could help my kid😢

[@LilThreat88]

@@sarahswetlik1034 hi there, I went through the same thing as a child with my mom, and I just had a breakthrough yesterday as to what would have helped me better. I personally really like helping people and making the people around me happy. So I got this brainstorm about learning manners: I hated being forced to say "please" and "thank you" and would make it into a big fight. I realize that positive reinforcement would have worked a lot better than demands on me. So if my mother had said "it makes me really happy when you include please with things that you ask me," and then modeled the behavior by telling me please and thank you, I might have skipped it sometimes, but shouldn't be punished for it. Instead the authority figure should act a little bit more happy when I do it, and praise me, then I would have done it out of desire, instead of being forced to. I don't know if that will help your daughter, but I know it would have helped me!

[@seleneavalle1207]

@sarahswetlik1034 Hi Sarah, I would like to know in advance what my task is and my schedule for the day, it makes my work easier and relieves my anxiety. For instructions and orders I prefer to have it in writing otherwise I forget and hesitate.

[@misspatvandriverlady7555]

@@seleneavalle1207I’m thinking of my girl (who is also AuDHD-PI), always wanting to know the schedule for today, tomorrow, and maybe the next day, too! When we don’t have an evening activity planned, I’ll say, “I was thinking we would go home and rest. It’s good to rest sometimes!”, which she agrees with! ☺️

[@mirandelf]

Pervasive drive for autonomy. I love it. What a great reframing of PDA. As you say it has an honourable and positive core to it but can still account for the more unhelpful manifestations of PDA.

[@stuartchapman5171]

I'm AuDHD, I agree. I do find that even a project I've been planning, around my special interest, will get avoided, it can be crippling. Thankfully if I look after myself and get enough rest, I can only just hold my life together. I'm with you though, a natural anarchist.

[@kevinwhite6176]

If you've heard the saying, "when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail" - this is my latest hammer. I heard about PDA from a therapist friend of mine, and it was like some stadium floodlights went off in my head. "That thing I do has a name!" That feeling of "I can't do that because I'll stop being in control of myself / I'll lose my identity!" is something I totally identify with and also kind of feel mystified by, since I know it's not productive and I don't like it. Like another commenter, I'm a creative person and I can't take commissions as a result of this phenomenon - I find it to be excruciating. The idea about roleplaying to avoid demands is kind of strange to me though, and I've read some case studies describing this and that definitely doesn't apply to me. As someone with ADHD, I think some portion of what seems like PDA in myself is when I'm focused on some reward area and some demand doesn't trigger that reward. The other portion is the above mentioned threat to my self-identity. Something really interesting you might want to explore is a perhaps adjacent thing, which is termed "Maladaptive Daydreaming". That is when someone daydreams to the extent that it affects their life, especially when they use it as an escape. I write for a hobby and my daydreaming of stories and dialogue and narration and whatnot feels damaging to me as a person unless I can direct it out into writing. It uses a huge amount of brain power and consumes me if I can't express it, and I can't stop it.

[@Autistic_AF]

Hey Kevin, the role play element as it was written about in the earlier days (80’s and 90’s) is in the context of children. I don’t think I understand this either. And the hammer saying - yes! That’s a great saying! -Mike

[@maggierestivo5256]

I can relate to so much of what you are saying! I am creative as well and finally bit the bullet and ordered my canvases, tabletop easel and painting apron, because I am determined to finally paint, as I've wanted to my entire life. However, I am terrified of taking commissions, because then I have to put myself on a schedule, and do, do, do.... even when I am not in the mood to do so. I have told friends on Facebook that I hope they like paintings as gifts, because it seems less "demand-y." I really do want to paint, there are so many things in my head that I want to put out in paint form, but I am afraid that once again, I will self-sabotage. I, too, prefer "Pervasive Drive for Autonomy". I was always rebellious and defiant (but do not feel that I fit Oppositional Defiant Disorder, though I am ADD as well as ASD). (Good thing I was never subjected to "Compliance Therapy", I guess.) Great video. I am still convinced I am PDA as well as ADD and ASD. Late in life to come to this realization (early 60's), but better late than never, I guess! (Oh, final thought. School was such a never ending, tortuous experience of demands, that even in my mid-60's, when fall rolls around, I chortle with glee and think, "I never, EVER have to go to school AGAIN! YAY!!!!" This, from someone who managed to get an A.B. and an M.S. I guess I have great coping skills? Thanks for reading, if you got this far.)

[@wildernessisland2573]

​@@maggierestivo5256I went to art school in my youth and loved it, despite having to complete assignments because I wanted to learn how to do it, it was my choice. I only had issues with all the other classes, never my art classes. Upon graduating, though, I felt like I *had* to make a career in art to get by so I totally didn't do it. Fast forward to a couple of years ago and I did what you're considering to do, buy some paints and canvases and get my creativity out. I made such beautiful work that I started to get commissions. The first one wasn't so bad, despite not really being to my taste because I was excited that someone else liked my skills enough to pay me for them, but the second one I've been dragging my feet on for half a year. I have stopped painting altogether, or even drawing. Then I learned about PDA and it makes complete sense. It doesn't even just effect that one area of my life, it's just so pronounced of an example that it blew my mind, I couldn't explain why it was happening and now I feel like I can. Anyway, I won't be taking anymore commissions, believe me 😂

[@miaowmiaow1831]

Fellow creative here and commissions stress me out so much!!! I feel your pain. I've only done a few, and stopped pretty quickly. Even though I know I could make good money doing them, the pressure and the restriction, plus the awkward interaction with the customer if one of us isn't happy with it are just too much. They suck all of the joy out of it. I think recognising what you feel about your creative work and allowing yourself to do what works best for you , no matter what anyone else thinks is so important.

[@Musewhisperer]

You need to rationalize your commissions as being side quests to the adventure of your life, because what you are striving for is meaning.

[@dancecommando]

Absolutely agree with your analysis. I dislike some of the types of language made up to describe us. PDA, black and white thinking, lack of big picture thinking, time blindness... All sort of problematic and/or incorrect, and yes it's there to paint us as irrational. It's why I like monotropism as an idea because it's community chosen to describe the often undescribable. It's still feels like it's early days in research and hopefully more can be done in tandem with actual autists/neurodivergents. Also vegan! Hooray! 💚

[@gabby222themoon]

Yes! Why are we painted as such a nuisance?!! /rhetorical

[@ShintogaDeathAngel]

@@gabby222themoon I feel it boils down to things like people lacking patience/understanding/empathy, but of course there’s a lot more to it than that. I was diagnosed with autism as a teenager and had always felt like an outsider rather than a nuisance, but while I now suspect it was a misdiagnosis, I still find it unfortunate that society is constructed the way it is.

[@miaowmiaow1831]

Another thought I had while reading the comments: I wonder whether when we have PDA about a given task, but we don't know why, and it seems to be just because it's a demand, I wonder whether there might be a link with alexithymia and interoceptive differences here. For example, I have always put off or completely avoided washing my face in the sink for some reason, yet I love the sensation of washing, showering, bathing, and feeling clean and readily hop in the shower without a moment's hesitation. Recently, after 40 years of procrastinating doing it, I have worked out why - it's because I can't stand the feeling of water running down my forearms!!! This was such a lightbulb moment. I can't believe it's taken me this long to work it out, although I think as autistics we can get so used to tolerating or blocking out unpleasant sensations because they're so commonplace for us, that we end uup almost dissociating from them, resulting in us not liking doing a certain thing, seemingly without a clear reason., when really it might be that we can't identify or express what exactly we find off-putting about it.

[@Autistic_AF]

That's relatable! Yes, that's definitely a factor, I think! -Mike

[@cheyennemorrison4107]

I’ve found pda strategies and language helpful partly because it helps bridge the gap between my ASD and ADHD diagnoses, like why do I struggle to brush my teeth and go to bed? I know rationally that taking care of my teeth not only has the short term benefit of not having stanky breath, but also can save me a lot of pain and expense from dental problems in the long term, it doesn’t cause me any real sensory discomfort. But it’s something I HAVE to do, and once I do it I’m NOT ALLOWED to eat anything else until later or more likely, the next day. I know going to bed at 10 pm makes my morning easier and more pleasant, it makes my days better, it helps me regulate and have the energy to do the things that bring me joy, nothing available to me between 10pm and 2am is unavailable in the day, I know that going to bed at that time is in my best interest. But I have to do it. Something in the PDA profile that a lot of people miss is that the demands can come from yourself, it doesn’t have to be an authority figure telling you what to do. I’m actually really agreeable and people-pleasing to a problematic degree, the places where PDA describes stuff other people experience from me are fairly rare, but I can separate the double empathy cases away and still have a few situations over the years that are very distinct. Like the “irrational” part isn’t necessarily about other people not understanding your reasons, I literally can have all pros no cons for an action and have no barriers and no preferable path and still not do it and pda strategies have been more helpful than anything else for those. Although on the topic of double empathy I’m still mad about the time I was talking to a school administrator and asked what the minimum number of classes a student could take was and rather than answering my question about the parameters of enrollment, they shamed me! They acted like I was trying to do the bare minimum! I simply wanted to know the lower bound (the upper bound was clear based on the number of class periods in a day, so no reason to ask) and I still get mad when I think about it, like I have a pattern of overcommitting and burning out and I have only done it once at that point and was trying not to repeat it and ahhhhhh, not trying to avoid anything, just trying to understand the expectations! Monotropism is also very helpful, more helpful for me than pda, but less useful in communicating with people, like I find it a compelling way of understanding my brain not as a way between the two wolves inside me (adhd and ASD) but rather as a specific neurotype that displays outwardly in ways that people section off into different categories.

[@Pouquiloury]

This ! I recognise. Not the people pleasing, but all the rest, yes !!

[@Unverwertbar]

Thank you for this incredibly well worded and precise comment! You summarised exactly what I scrolled down for to comment myself, only thay I feel my comment would have been much more rambling ;-) While I fully get and value the criticisms of the PDA profile as in the DSM by several content creators on the ASD spectrum, I feel that they often miss the part where the demands can come from the inside, benefitting only yourself and no external party being involved. Like your example with the dental hygiene. Of course these can represent themselves as the internalized voices of former authority figures and be avoided for that reason. But I consistently reject demands by myself for any self care, routine keeping or many other "simple" tasks that would make my daily life more bearable. This includes almost any creative expression or participation in hobbies that I know I enjoy. Even reducing the scale of the perceived demand to a minimum has not helped. I find the Idea, that this might be the reaction dysphoria "acting up" pretty interesting. I feel like most adults in my early childhood wished me well and tried to promote my well being. Might be that I have internalized this to a degree, where I fear that "not managing" to care for myself means letting them down. I think the experience of PDA (in my case with ADHD and suspected ADS) is a thoroughly weird one. The concept helped me immeasurably to understand my behaviour that has so far been incomprehensible to myself. It may well be that the concept is only needed from a neurotypical viewpoint to explain something completely logical to persons very versed in the needs and experiences of neurodivergent persons - but that is where most of us late diagnosed come from.

[@DaughterofDiogenes]

Thank God to you for telling parents, not to tell their autistic kids to do what they’re told. I have an uncountable number of traumas resulting from adults telling me what to do, and me following it word for word because that’s what I thought I was supposed to do only to realize that they gave poor instructions and I did the wrong thing and get screamed at and have no idea why I was getting yelled at. Made only worse by my auditory processing issues.

[@daymaroke2114]

I have been trying to understand my own condition (undiagnosed) for about 3 years now, and when I found out about PDA last year, it was really exciting to me, because it covered several things that affect me, that aren't common indicators of autism. For example, the PDA society says that people who are PDA are more likely to be novelty seeking, to not eat the same food every day or listen to the same song over and over. There are other typical indicators of autism that leave me feeling left out of the equation, for example when I read things like "autistic people often do very well at school in a structured environment". But this was the total opposite of my experience, and the PDA description specifically mentions homework, which was such a severe problem for me that I got expelled for refusing to do it. These are problems I face, and I feel very alone with them. Learning about autism and finding out even other autistic people don't have these issues is alienating, so discovering PDA was valuable. I don't claim that it fits me 100%, for example I don't roleplay my way out of situations. But it fits me better than anything else. And to be honest I don't see why we shouldn't have multiple categories of autism, and it doesn't bother me at all that they overlap. The autism spectrum is so broad that we can suffer from too little or too much empathy, opposite experiences! But having low empathy feels like the 'valid' kind of autism because it's the one traditionally assigned to autism. It is only because I learned about things like RSD and atypical autism and other labels that I feel valid. And that's how I feel about PDA and my problems that I feel many other autistic people don't understand and don't share. For example, the hot water in my building has been malfunctioning for 3 months now. I could make a phone call to try and get it fixed, but I haven't. I avoid telling people who could help me. I don't know how long it will take to address the issue, but other issues can go on for years. And that's the entrenched nature of the condition that I feel you haven't addressed in your video. It's not just about not wanting to do something, or procrastinating. It feels like I have to push back with all my energy against these things that are a mild annoyance/easy quick task to others. So I don't really take any issue with the term 'pathological'. The most valuable thing is that I feel seen and acknowledged by the PDA society, even if it's just via a youtube video and PDF intro to the concept. That's something no one else in my life, especially as a child, offered to me.

[@hollieverafter]

I prefer Pervasive Drive for Autonomy, too. I'm a newly diagnosed Autist (age 51) but I have always known I cold never work for someone else and be tied to that kind of schedule and such. It's autonomy, not demand avoidance or laziness, indeed.

[@hollieverafter]

Also, Jasper is gorgeous!

[@Autistic_AF]

Thank you! Yes I agree - and congratulations on your new diagnosis / identification! Welcome to team autist! (We have the best cookies!). Jasper says thanks! He’s a properly big boy. Never seen a tabcat so chonky. -Mike

[@karanseraph]

I feel i have something like what is described as "PDA" and for me the underlying cause is my struggle to attain agency and autonomy over my own actions and life and my discomfort at being perceived by others to have an observable weakness, difference, or deficit. If someone is asking me nicely days in advance to come help them out by doung a thing i know i can do i can agree and follow through. But if someone is telling me one hour beforehand that oh there's a birthday party for someone and i haven't even motivated myself to shower that day and don't jave time and money to get a gift then no. And those might just sound like NT sitiations or responses. But in other scenarios it can come down to not wanting to try harder to get a job or to clean my room *because* someone else either told me to do it or asked why i couldn't. Then it feels like they 'steal' my agency by taking the idea i already had internally but was struggling with anxiety or EF to do and they said it out loud like a judgement or demand that makes it now seem i have to do it for them and not myself. And they've done this by generally calling out a perveived deficit or difference. And usually the result is i will avoid doing that thing even more unless i can find a way to do it clearly for me on my terms without them being informed.

[@f.u.c8308]

I relate. This is why I cant talk about my projects and interests anymore, it doesnt feel like mine anymore when I do. I think it is because I'm oversensitive from the people who "encourage" my talents but I don't feel are here for me or value me as a person.

[@lynettejwhite]

Yes, this is what I experience as PDA. I hate being told what to do, the more mundane or trivial the worse it is!

[@julierhan]

I love all your videos and yes, I would love to see a video about historical figures who may have exhibited autistic traits 👍

[@Autistic_AF]

Awwww, thanks Julie! You’re too kind really! And yes. It’s now in the video todo list! A nice fun one! -Mike ☺️

[@AM-ub1mb]

PDA seems, in my opinion, to be a diagnosis that is a result from a failure of empathy and/or refusal to listen intently to autistic people. An Example; "Why don't you want to go to the family christmas gathering" "Can I be honest?" "Of course!" "Aunt Gertrude is cooking, and she always makes soggy chicken with the breading sloughing off and candied sweet potatoes, and I hate all of that and don't want to force myself to eat it. It's going to be bright and loud and too warm, and people will want to talk to me about things I don't care about, and it will take a lot of concentration and effort for me to participate in these conversations I don't even want to be having. When I get overwhelmed and try to find a quiet, dark place, someone will eventually hunt me down and ask me what I'm doing, which defeats the purpose of my trying to get away. Generally, I desperately want people to leave me alone, and what you consider to be an enjoyable time together with loved ones is a mix between running a 10k and doing a customer service job for 6 hours." ".....I think I would have prefered that you just make up a reason why you couldn't go instead of comparing being with your family to a miserable chore!" "I know, that's why I tried diving out of the room every time you seemed like you wanted to ask me to do something"

[@Autistic_AF]

“…and doing a customer service job for six hours” Oh My God That is so good. I’ll be using that if you don’t mind lol. Brilliant.

[@s0cializedpsych0path]

I grew up with a single mother, who I always thought was narcissistic... but I'm starting to think she's on the spectrum, too. I know my dad was... he was a machinist. He rebuilt the entire inner workings of Prometheus at Rock Center.... he also built the "Herald Angels" that they put up at Christmas. Anyway..... I'm PDA, and I think it has a lot to do with my mom's disregard for my feelings and will. She would ALWAYS interrupt me whenever I was doing my own thing, constantly. It feels like she's trying to hijack my will. If you ASK me to do something for you, with respect for my autonomy, you have about a 90% chance of getting more than you hoped for... But if you order me, I'll sniff out your true motive and give you the opposite.

[@jadedoddity]

I do go through with demands but I do get really really bad anxiety from them.

[@Autistic_AF]

Me too :/

[@paulcorfield_artist]

My wife had our kitchen and bathroom replaced around 3 years ago. Walls and ceilings replastered and all new units etc. After the workmen finished my wife said I had to paint the walls and ceilings. 3 years later and I still haven't done them because I just can't seem to start, initially it was the "I must do it" thing, I just couldn't get past that, but it just carried on and on. Similar with my painting, I no longer take on private commissions because in an odd way they feel like demands, like once I say yes then I have to do it. Months and sometimes years go by and the client is still waiting, sometimes I have to say sorry and say that it just won't get done. So up to now I just don't do them. Must say though, since I started keto 4 months ago to alleviate my autism symptoms, I've also found PDA affects me much less. So much so that I've recently bought all the tins of paint required for all of my decorating jobs, and I've also just taken on a very important commission which I'll be starting in about a weeks time. Just another of the loads of benefits I've found on keto. Another pathological thing I have is PSP, pathological skin picking, I've done that all my life, pretty much daily since my teens, probably a form of stimming as I do it when stressed or not. But since starting keto that also stopped, something I've done for a 40 years stopped literally overnight.

[@Autistic_AF]

Hey Paul, I can relate to that. There’s a light fixture waiting for me to install, and it’s been waiting for several years now. It’s an odd thing, isn’t it? Glad your diet is helping - I think it can help to experiment with what we eat although, as autists, food sensitivities can make this tricky, can’t it? -Mike

[@paulcorfield_artist]

@@Autistic_AF Definitely, I think food sensitivity just comes with being autustic. Myself, my daughter and my son all suffer with ibs. Over my 53 years I'd naturally settled into a very restricted diet anyway as over time I'd honed in on what foods would give me problems. Switching to keto has kept most of those foods in anyway, all I've cut out is any of the processed foods which were only there as little treats anyway. I don't miss those. At the start I looked into the various studies on keto diets for autistic children. Those have a very wide variety of food choices because children are naturally more fussy. Only thing that gives me ibs is avocado so I've dropped those. Apparently it's common as avocados have something in them that a lot of people are allergic to. At the moment I eat 2 meals a day, dinner is a lot of lettuce and cucumber with a steak or roast beef, or I'll have moderate amounts of carrots and brussel sprouts with either of the meat choices. For my evening meal I make a keto friendly muesli which is macadamia nuts, cashew nuts, walnuts, coconut, flaxseed, chia seed, pumpkin seed, sunflower seed, cacao nibs. To that I add a good helping of Greek yogurt and a scoop of vanilla protein powder. Eating this way keeps my daily net carbs at around 15 grams. If I go higher then all of my various traits start to become more noticeable, I'll start skin picking etc. The studies on children have found the same thing. Keto diets and modified keto diets significantly reduce their autistic traits. Good study going on in America at the moment of 100 long term keto eaters who've done it for 5 years or more. In that study they're looking at the effects of cholesterol and high fat. Using cat scans they've found zero effects of having long term high cholesterol, there's a ton of new research into why that's the case. I do a ton of research while I'm sat painting everyday. Another area is dementia and alzheimer's, on keto the patients improve cognitive function immensely. Bipolar is another area, patients on Bipolar meds which carry a load of side effects, on keto they're completely coming off those meds. So it's a diet that's doing a lot of good in brain related areas. Initially just a diet in the 1920s to control epilepsy but now being found to do way more.

[@paulcorfield_artist]

@@Autistic_AF A funny demand avoidance thing I had last year. An old b&w Tarzan film came up on the TV listings. As a kid Tarzan was one of my earliest hyperfocuses, at least from around age 4 or 5 I'd say. Tarzan or dinosaurs, obsessed lol. I haven't seen an old b&w Tarzan film since maybe the mid 1980s. So I set my Youview box to record it. Excited the next day to watch it but it felt like a demand. It took me another 3 months until I could get past that demand and actually press the play button on the remote. 😅

[@knolli85]

When my parents got their new bathroom, my father promised to finish the shower soon. That was before my birth. All my childhood we had to use the bath tub because the shower wasn't fixed. Now I'm nearing the age he was then, and he still hasn't fixed it. And now I look around in my own apartment and have to think of that saying about apples and trees...

[@jo45]

The more I learn about pda, the more I think my daughter has it from me 😂 The oddest thing my daughter percieves as demand is probably when I offer a piece of cake I baked. (I think the effort of others is placing a percieved demand for her to test it, and perhaps also the generel assumption that children all love cake, and perhaps it also gives a fear, that she wont be offered any other sweet treat that day) My own most hated thing, is when someone is telling something I should do, and I was already planning to do just that, but now I have to creatively make up a completely other route, because my original idea has been forever tainted! 😤

[@gabby222themoon]

Great video informing ppl about PDA! Such an important topic in the neurodivergent community. Great content as always. I personally like the revised term persistent drive for autonomy but either way this idea finally helped me explain my struggles. So helpful when sharing with friends and family how to better understand/accommodate me and each other/other PDA’ers in my life.

[@Autistic_AF]

Thanks, Gabby!

[@kensears5099]

Since my ASD discovery last spring, innumerable things have made sense. Among these is demand-avoidance. It makes so much sense of my innate, visceral resistance to all sense of demand, imposition, manipulation, encroachment, all of which radiate a kind of proximity and intimacy that sends me into a subtle kind of shutdown or resistance. Like the resistance between identical magnetic poles being forced into proximity. It's an inner "secret" because most people in my life would never guess it. I've developed the inner mechanism, out of sheer survival instinct, part of the broader masking, to override the "PDA" instinct instantly. It was definitely there in childhood, and now, looking back, I understand so much better why I reacted so badly to apparently innocuous requests or parental "orders."

[@hannah51238]

PDA was actually the start of getting diagnosed as a AuDHDer

[@Autistic_AF]

💜

[@waywrdsun]

Thanks for this, Mike. I definitely have some tendencies that could be labeled PDA, and as I'm continuing to consider whether my particular brand of neurodivergence is autism, I'm also considering if PDA might be my brand (or one of my brands) of autism. Keep the great videos coming!

[@Autistic_AF]

Thanks, Jason! When I was thinking along similar lines and came to, "PDA Profile", I wondered -- what other profiles are out there? It's standalone, really! Although "Monotropism" is a theory proposed by autistic researchers that a lot of people find very relatable, that comes without the 'othering' baggage that the PDA Society definitions carry. Take care! -Mike

[@Fade2GrayOG]

At nearly 40 I've gotten a lot better at dealing with the unknown. It used to be nearly crippling, especially if i was going somewhere new by myself. It's probably just a combination of experience and being old enough to not give crap anymore that's helped.

[@chrismaxwell1624]

I'm not convinced demand avoidance is actually real but there was time I thought it was. This was because I had looked or understood my own needs. This what I need to not avoid demands and there could be more I haven't thought of. 1) I need it to be clear that someone wants me to do something 2) I need to know why I have to do something 3) I need to have the spoons available to do those thing 4) I need the confidence in what I'm going do 5) I need consistency in rules 6) I need time to think as I know I can be black and white in thinking and take time view the shades of grey 7) I need thing to sensory friendly to me A lot these needs just take time other take adjustments and then no need avoid the demand.

[@blanska]

I like the video idea you mentioned at the beginning: speculating about which historical figures might have been autistic :)

[@Autistic_AF]

I'm so going to do this - do you have anyone in mind? :) -Mike

[@blanska]

@@Autistic_AF I'm not very good at history, so no :D but the topic sounds interesting to me ^^

[@Oltrya]

oh gods i also need to do my tax return- thanks for the reminder lmao

[@Autistic_AF]

My pleasure 😇 haha #ProcrastinationClub!

[@jul.m.2692]

The tax avoidance is real though!

[@KayleenWhite-ug4sk]

This is great! Thank you. Moral reasons have been top of the list for me saying no to social and some work expectations, but I consider the alternative term to be brilliant

[@Autistic_AF]

Glad it was helpful, Kathleen. ☺️

[@knolli85]

Thanks for the very interesting video. The three alternative explanation for avoiding demands make sense, but they don't catch a very important group of demands: The things we demand of ourselves. I remember situations where I intended to do this very important thing that I really needed to do, and then stood there paralyzed and couldn't bring myself to start doing it. It felt like crashing into a physical wall. Inside my head, two voices had a screaming match: "You MUST do it!" "But I don't want to!" After five, sometimes ten minutes of just standing still I got so emotionally exhausted that I gave up. There was nobody else making the demand (aside of "society" and perceived social norm), so double empathy doesn't explain it. And the task was part of something I decided to do and had planned out, so moral objections are out, too. The task wasn't even that hard or complicated, and certainly didn't hold the risk of sensory overload. It was just monotonous and boring. If anyone can offer an explanation, I'd like to hear it.

[@Autistic_AF]

Thank you, Knolli - you’ve made a good point there. Thanks for sharing your relatable experience of the internalised PDA! It’s a big topic! -Mike

[@lynettejwhite]

If it was me, the answer would be in the 'monotonous and boring' explanation. I really dislike doing tedious work, I get easily distracted whilst trying to do it, and have to implement extra strategies to keep myself on task. I have structured my work role so that I don't get so many of the tedious tasks and do a lot more of the creative work.

[@lynettejwhite]

Also, on the topic of internal and external demands and expectations, I have found Gretchen Rubin's Four Tendencies to be an interesting theory.

[@Pouquiloury]

Yes

[@aawillma]

Oh man, the timing of this... I got in trouble at work for insubordination. I couldn't obey my boss because her demand was idiotic. I actually complied at first, but then I found a legit way around it. Oooo boy she didn't like that. First time I've ever been in trouble like this, I'm almost 40. Not diagnosed autistic but adhd and strongly pda since childhood. To hell with dumb bosses though, honestly lol.

[@Autistic_AF]

"Insubordination" literally reminds me of the 1980s. People should treat each other with respect. Doubly so for hierarchical organisations that have a duty of care to employees, etc. -Mike

[@RikkeMyE]

I didnt look up til now. - haha 24:27 NOW you got my attention! 😂😂😂 The rest of it was very nice to paint too ❤ But my lovely Brain wouldnt have looket at the screen if you had not shows Jasper - aw he is pretty!!! ❤❤❤❤❤

[@Autistic_AF]

Oh, I see... you love the cat lol! I hope your painting went well! Jasper is very lovely!

[@nicholassermoneta7981]

When Allistic people say PDA’ers seem irrational, that’s from a perspective of someone who values relationships over the fear of internal emotional discomfort.

[@merg-vh5sx]

Great insight. It's better if people understand that those with demand avoidance don't really want relationships the same way some other people do. It's always a case of "my way or the highway", which is very difficult for the other party no matter the cause.

[@camellia8625]

Or maybe allistics don’t feel internal emotional discomfort to any significant degree when asked to something, so they cannot relate.

[@tirainthewoods]

Really well ecplained. I think my main issue with accepting my preference for control or independence is that i don't necessarily have the executive function skills to carry out tasks. How many times ive asked for help and then blatantly avoided doing it even then. I know that doing what they tell me will help me feel more accomplished and learn but i still feel its a hurdle i can't quite get over. It makes me feel pretty stupid and that I'm sabotaging myself ha. Procrastination, perfectionism, pda whatever it is, it's hard to get over the hurdle if you don't identify the correct cause.

[@Autistic_AF]

☺️ Thanks, Starlight! That's exactly right - and I think, that as autistic people we're used to (dare I say 'conditioned') into saying 'yes' when we really should be saying 'no'. A lot of demands are just that - demands! Optional! -Mike

[@courtneyharper]

Wow… hunger as a demand that can keep us from eating - ALLLLLL my resonance 💡💡💡💡💡💡s just switched on hearing that 😅

[@tobias2252]

Great video, thought provoking and insightful. Another example that came to my mind how refusal to a demand could be interpreted / labeled as "pathological" is when the demand is refused without the necessary social dance of "I would really like to follow your demand, but [insert lie here]". In this example, the actual avoidance or refusal wouldn't be the "problem", but simply the difference in communication styles that often happens between NDs and NTs. In most examples, it seems to me that it is just easier to call our behaviours "pathological", instead of recognizing that societal structures and expectations are not accommodating a large number of human beings. But no, it must be that the human beings are defective (sarcasm).

[@Autistic_AF]

Hi Tobias, thank you. Your example makes a lot of sense to me. Thinking back to my school days - I might have (well, was sometimes) considered to be avoiding when the scenario can be better explained by the double empathy problem at play.

[@IceCreamSplat]

How does the statistics compare when having the acronym "PDA" for "public displayed affections" included in potential search results? I'm thinking that spikes in popularity in our current internet era coincides with it, which is why I was really confused when PDA as a different condition was associated with autistics 😂

[@Autistic_AF]

Hello! It doesn't change the results. The trend search was for the full term, "Pathological Demand Avoidance". But yes, I did wonder re; Public Displays of Affection haha. My first thought was, "PDA" as in, "Personal Digital Assistant" like the early handheld PCs or Palm Pilots!

[@tc4327]

Hi-this was a great discussion of possible causes of the PDA profile in some autistics. As an autistic and ADHD woman with 4 kids on the Autism spectrum and three with comorbid ADD/ADHD and having another child who demonstrates many ADHD behaviors and an entire family, also, repeatedly, clinically- profiled and/or diagnosed with autism-I am always trying to figure out why we are all very similar and yet different in other ways. PDA behaviors fit two of my children and might also fit my sister. HOWEVER-I agree with you. I think it is a list of avoidance behaviors associated with neurodivergent people (not a separate condition) and I feel that these behaviors look the same with slightly different causes- Here are some differences I have noted in my autistic family members that might cause demand avoidance behaviors: Comorbid OCD and related anxiety Comorbid ADHD/ADD -ADHD paralysis Bipolar disorder-or Depression-the crippling depression either can cause And then there is the -Justice related behaviors in autism- avoiding a task you cannot morally complete. And as you suggested-it could be many of these factors together: for instance, I am also a vegan and have been since I was 16. I am 50 now, and I refuse to partake in many dinners or social gatherings because of the non-vegan menu alone, the anxiety around social situations, sensory overload issues, and the fact that it is a break in my routine-now which one is it that causes the demand avoidance? Probably it is all of them. But when you said rejection sensitivity dysphoria as a possible reason for demand avoidance-I became convinced of why two of my kids avoided demands-because that explained what all the others I listed could not. I think this was a very insightful and helpful video-thanks so much! Have you thought of doing a video comparing ADHD paralysis in autistics with ADHD/ADD to PDA? That would be very interesting-but rejection sensitivity dysphoria seems to be a very likely alternative cause for many people’s demand avoidance. Thanks so much!

[@Autistic_AF]

Excellent points! 🌱

[@marisawojcikiewicz8148]

OH MY GOD the hunger thing is so relatable.

[@dio69666]

I feel like the core issue is that neurotypicals don't understand autistic empathy. Of course it doesn't make sense to us if a human does or doesn't have authority over us. It doesn't even make sense to us when animals do or don't. Our range of empathy is wider. The fact that neurotypicals think they are superior to us for being egotistical is laughably absurd

[@gamewrit0058]

21:00 wool jumpers! 😱 Even my overbearing parents figured out not to try to make me wear a turtleneck. Just layer a more comfortable jacket over a shirt I already felt comfortable wearing.

[@Autistic_AF]

Absolutely, that's the better way! -Mike

[@Pouquiloury]

Wool feels icky and turtlenecks feel like I am being strangled....

[@aspidoscelis]

Personally, I'm fine with "pathological demand avoidance" as a term because it is obviously an exonym. It accurately communicates the viewpoint of non-autistic society-and reflects poorly on them. It would be nice to change their viewpoint, but until then we may as well be straightforward about it. I also find it useful as a descriptive term. I prefer to have it available than not. I wouldn't argue it should be a diagnosis in DSM or ICD-though our classification of mental variation is a mess and should be overhauled, regardless.

[@malapropia]

Exonym is a great term! I’d like to hear that thrown around more. I just tell people I’m an “APD-er”. Avoider of Pathological Demands!

[@emmaszczambura6997]

If cortisol is the main factor of Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) children - If anxiety (Trauma) produces cortisol and can result in demand avoidance traits with both children and adults - If the covid injections can affect the neurological system within children and adults, could it mean a possible surge of PDA children in 2027. The amount of cortisol experienced by pregnant woman during a pandemic and the fact the NHS services were limited could all contribute to a mass population of PDA children. When looking at new research it suggests that the amount of cortisol experienced during pregnancy can affect a child resulting in them becoming diagnosed with PDA. The NHS will not accept PDA as a diagnosis I believe this is due to the research that PDA can result from negligence during pregnancy and post pregnancy due to trauma.

[@Pouquiloury]

I think this is quite a challenging idea.

[@MeredithDomzalski]

Are there any techniques that you've personally found helpful for your PDA? I'm having immense difficulty getting myself to do anything right now, even things that are good for me.

[@fishfish7985]

I struggle with demands my brain screams at me the whole time but i often still do the thing , (i was a major people pleaser before i became medically interesting getting netter now but its still there) , but sometimes i cant do them or my brain is just like nope not today possibly because of this or because of medically complexity

[@j.b.4340]

It’s very real. It’s very natural. I’ve always had it. I called it ODD, or oppositional defiance disorder.

[@jombii-7090]

I was quite confused while in therapy when asking about PDA. My therapist strongly rejected the idea of it, which was kind of mind boggling since its a term widely used within the Autistic community Kind of put a sour taste in my mouth about certain therapists

[@Autistic_AF]

It might be time to try a new term that covers the demand avoidance part of the autistic experience. Although, such new terms are unlikely to gain traction now that the 'autism' umbrella has been widened recently to include many of the identified traits of the last few decades. It's interesting, isn't it? -Mike

[@kensears5099]

In short, you might consider PDA as somewhere in the psycho-affective neighborhood with visceral repulsion at uninvited touch.

[@juliettespoon]

Great vid! Thank you friend

[@Autistic_AF]

Thanks, Juliette! ☺️

[@kikitauer]

I still see PDA as a weird bs explanation that's really out there. Seeing hunger as a demand is really a reach for example. I am thinking it might be a lot of other issues mixed together. While it is great that we have something to quickly describe it, it might actually make it harder to treat or solve this. Most of them have something to do with executive function or other stuff associated with ASD as you pointed out. The hunger does for example. I never had an issue with feeding myself but I often leave peeing for the very last moment because it is sometimes hard to make myself to leave the chair and go to the toilet. It is also boring and it breaks my focus. It is almost painful sometimes. But ADHD meds help with this so it is probably just executive function problem.

[@Autistic_AF]

The bit that got me was, "my leg's not working!". Although - I can see that. For sure, for those lets posit who have no control over their lives. Perhaps, they're institutionalised. Maybe this is a way to bring back some control over events and themselves. I don't know. Maybe! -Mike

[@myconfusedmerriment]

I’ve been trying to learn more about PDA and while I do relate very much to the traits it encompasses, I really can’t find a clear difference between demand avoidance and executive function issues. I do think it’s interesting that the PDA profile uses the lens of threat response/anxiety as a root cause of a lot of different behaviors-I think there’s something to that. But I don’t necessarily know if it isn’t, as you say, activated by a combination of known issues. I think it’s probably more helpful to view something like demand avoidance as a symptom rather than an entire psychological profile. For starters, different people seem to have different things count as demands; I do actually have trouble feeding myself (cooking something that isn’t microwaveable, anyway), but in a spoon theory-ish way, it’s easier for me to get through the steps of cooking myself a real meal if I’ve had a less demanding day. Am I avoiding demands when I’m lying on the couch not eating because I don’t want to make food? Yeah, but there is a reason, even if it looks nonsensical to anyone watching.

[@xionxiv9293]

Jasper is soooo cute ❤ 😊 Thank you for the video, I felt some of the characteristics you described resonate with me... 😅 I can’t wait to watch your video/take on autistic burnout. 😊 & comorbidities ;) While I still do not know if I am autistic (still playing the fun little game "is it (born) neurodivergency or is it (childhood) trauma?" 😅), I have been feeling quite burnt out for quite a while now...

[@Autistic_AF]

He’s a lovely chonk! And he is quite forceful with his cuddles. A mass of muscle this one! Thank you for your comment, I’m glad you enjoyed the video haha. Burnout topics will be done soon. And trauma, there’s so much trauma in the early lives of people on the spectrum for sure. -Mike

[@xionxiv9293]

@@Autistic_AF Jasper sounds like a really cute sweetheart ❣️🥰 No pressure, take as much time as you want and need! 😊 I find early childhood trauma makes it especially difficult to figure out how much of one's "being" (interests, behaviours, likes & dislikes, etc.) is influenced by trauma and what characteristics one would have kept or developed even without it. Anyways: Love seeing glimpses and hearing your comments about your cats ❤️ You seem like a really proud cat dad and your joy when showing them is infectious 😁❤

[@Autistic_AF]

Thank you 🙏

[@simonfrost8279]

Great video! As an undiagnosed 50 year old who has frequently been told I’m on “the spectrum “ it really makes sense. Thank you 🙏

[@Autistic_AF]

Thank you, Simon! Wishing you all the best today! 🧡

[@Demonmagna]

I think I have this since I was a kid, faking being Ill to avoid school or avoid doing chores, My mind running wild to create an excuse to avoid work or any party invitation. avoid cleaning my room because i have been told, avoid or even do the opposite of being told because, well, because fuck you don´t tell me what to do. and I can go on and on, but it makes sense why my mind does that to avoid mildly "difficulties" or to avoid work at all.

[@MaximSchoemaker]

Tysm ✨

[@Autistic_AF]

Thank YOU! ☺️

[@meganshaw4381]

Oh, the things I have avoided!

[@madnessintomagic]

I have demand avoidance and have known people with pathological demand avoidance. It’s frustrating in myself and UBER frustrating dealing with Pda in others.

[@Dreykopff]

A theory that I've seen be suggested under another video was that maybe PDA is secretly just AuDHD. What do you think about that?

[@Autistic_AF]

Well, who knows? Maybe PDA and AuDHD are secretly long-lost twins separated at birth. They both seem to have a knack for causing chaos and confusion! Hahaha lol. -Mike

[@myconfusedmerriment]

This seems like a distinct possibility, especially since PDA autism is said to have a high comorbidity with ADHD. Also the description of an “atypical presentation” of autism…but to be fair, when PDA was first posited, you couldn’t get both diagnoses at the same time, only one or the other!

[@Dreykopff]

@@myconfusedmerriment And that last part would indirectly somewhat support the idea, because what if someone's actually fitting both? If you're forced to pick one of them but really want to pick both, maybe you'd make a new thing you can pick that essentially covers both, instead of picking one and rejecting the other.

[@Autistic_AF]

All good points! But let’s also remember that the spectrum of PDA must vary. There’s the person who might sit, on a road, using their body weight to prevent removal - all the way through to the examples in my vid.

[@angieniger]

Could this be the reason I procrastinate more than other people?! I’ve been trying to start a business and one of the things I hate is having to spend time doing tasks for the business when I want to be doing only things I love. If I could pay others to do certain things for me I would but I don’t have enough money to hire people now…. No matter how much I work on my mindset and remind myself that procrastinating only harms me in the long run I still can’t bring myself to get started 😢

[@coffeefrog734]

my own and friends pda its often an automation reaction when one is extremely overwhelmed(with sensory or task) or feeling a loss of control over their life.

[@colby_chezzz]

when im not in burnout a demand is annoying but i am able to after some time to do the demand, but when im in burnout like i am right now basic demands feel paralyzing. I can say in my head all i want just move but my body finds it so hard to listen. it feels emotionally taxing because i know how important it is to eat but the act of having to cook keeps me from eating.

[@gamewrit0058]

Hi, Jasper! 🥰❤️

[@Autistic_AF]

:)

[@user-lh8xz6zs4s]

I’m struggling around loved ones who present very strongly but refuse to be open to diagnosis which is fine but then use allistic language with children who are genetically related and autistic, while simultaneously requiring accommodations neurodivergent ppl often need while wearing label allistic and proporting allistic proganda against autistic

[@mishka623]

Hey! What about avoiding brushing your teeth or eating ? Is it rational?

[@Autistic_AF]

Not rational but could certainly be PDA!

[@katzenbekloppt2412]

I think I don't have this, BUT... 1) I love rules. I am obsessive following them. But if someone unfairly doesn't trust me I am doing it althoug I did, I immediatliy stop and do just minumum work. 2) Be a good boss who knows more on that specific thing then me, explain me why to do something and I happily do it the best I can. But if You tell wrong things and I definitly know better and You want me to to incorrect work...nope. 3) I just planned to do something and then one tells me to do it (like as a child do daily flute-homework) and it feels I am not able to do it then. So I guess it has more to do with beeing treated fair and respectful and problems with accepting authorities if they don't behave like they deserve my respect back. My dad in fights with me often said "si o si?" which is no question of cause, more means "basta!". And later as a teenager "If I tell You that this wall is black (although it was white) what colour is it?" and knowing he would hit me in the face everytime I refused to answer black I just couldn't. Which outraged him in those moments but later he said it made him respect me for being strong. (He was much older then my german mother and grew up in the 30s/40s in latin american upper class family were this was normal, he later apologized which I found pretty amazing and I always knew he loved me a lot, other then younger german teacher/psychologist mother who was hitting me from early childhood on, emotional abused me and till the end said I lie.) So I paid too high cost running away from home and leaving school with 17 to be able to stand unfair treatment by stupid people later, even it would have made my life much easier to just bite on my teeth for a moment. I just can't. And also can't look away if others are treated unfair, so often stepped in and called police for example, which was dangerous or am the person doing medical first aid so often that I decided to get some professionell training for that.

[@DandyXandy36]

I love Jasper ❤

[@eirikmurito]

Im cool with people requesting something from me if i actually owe them a favor but most times i dont owe them anything so why would they even ask me. And heres another thing if theyre "just asking" why do they get mad and try to punish me if i say no? Its not just an innocent request at this point

[@towzone]

PDA day, no one showed up! LOL

[@Autistic_AF]

Reverse psychology lol

[@jo45]

I agree, that in a better world, pda perhaps wouldn’t be a thing, but learning of this label, empowered me to be (keep being) accomodating and actively listening in my parenting, even though other parents and school could see it as ‘spoiling’. It also gave me a clue, that my daughters high anxiety could be caused by autism, and I now treat it this way (diagnosing is a bitch in my country). I have always been the only one, who could make my ‘stubborn’ daughter do things she needed to do, but only because I listened to her and reduced her anxiety levels, which is only rational in my oppinion! (I’m ofc. not perfect, but I’m learning and trying). In a better world, every human would be met with this approach, right?

[@johnknox9945]

Definitely have PDA.

[@calliope6623]

I don't think the issue is your "autistic black and white thinking." To me it seems that you have actually thought this through in a very logical and complex way, whereas the people who come up with these labels and diagnostic criteria tend to be viewing neurodivergent people in an extremely black and white manner. As a small child I was diagnosed with oppositional defiance disorder. Later, I was diagnosed with autism, but in my case, I did not feel that this lead to any deeper understanding or acceptance of who I was. If my undesirable behaviors had been understood instead as a "pervasive drive for autonomy", my childhood would have been so different.

[@andreawisner7358]

So you have an answering service to tell callers that you will not be calling them back? Hmmm. Interesting.

[@Autistic_AF]

One of the best things I've ever done! They do pass messages onto me. And callers learn to contact me through the right methods - always a written one :) I do make phonecalls, but they need to be planned. I think that is perfectly reasonable. -Mike

[@Mr3DBob]

I only recently heard about this, and recognized I've been doing this much of my life. I'd thought it was merely procrastinitis.

[@merg-vh5sx]

What differentiates it from someone with autism simply having an avoidant personality style? And how does parenting affect it? I know nobody knows. Research always lacking.

[@Autistic_AF]

They’re not the same. It might help to swap out ‘autism’ in your question with something else, like ‘homosexuality’ or ‘femaleness’ or similar attribute. ‘How does parenting affect maleness’ - nobody can answer; since the question needs reforming. I hope that makes sense? -Mike

[@merg-vh5sx]

@@Autistic_AF Parenting affects everything for everyone. And people with autism surely have personalities? And personality traits? Like other people? What about autistic people and trauma? How does that play out? It's all been neglected in this recent flurry of acceptance-inspired psychology. I'm all for acceptance but when it creates limitations for autists I'm not down for it. A lack of research and creativity is a huge limitation. They're making it up as they go.

[@PlanckRelic]

I feel like the meme/stock-footage inserts kinda interrupt the flow, and I'm not sure they are adding playfulness in a helpful way. You don't have a naturally chaotic style that those elements drop into easily, so it's a harder kind of integration if you want it to work well.

[@Autistic_AF]

You're right, it is much harder to get the third party stuff to work well. It could have been done better for sure. Thanks for your feedback, and for being here :) -Mike

[@gabby222themoon]

@@Autistic_AFfor what it’s worth I didn’t mind it 🤷🏽‍♀️ but I’m 23 idk if that’s a factor here I like the lil interruptions, audhder here

[@Autistic_AF]

@@gabby222themoon Haha thanks. I think I could have done a better job in the edit - but onwards and upwards! Thank you! ✌️#Audhd :)

[@Pouquiloury]

​@@Autistic_AF: AU-DHD here, the small interruptions give dopamine !

[@mikko.g]

😀

[@foljs5858]

"A lot of it uses allistic or non-autistic language" doesn't matter. What matters is if the phenomenon is real, and if there's a specific pathological element to it or not. Also the DSM can change all they want, cave in to fashions of each era etc. But there would be an underlying reality of some DSM claim, or there wont be. And of course the DSM might get the reality wrong (or might have it right and get it wrong on a later revision). We should strive to find out what the objective reality is, not play language games, or blindly consider whatever the current DSM says as true (or as wrong).

[@glenrose7482]

As a PDAer with 2 PDA children this video does more harm than good for PDAers and continues the invalidating dismissive narrative. This video is very much watering the PDA experience down and is dismissive of a minority group within a minority group. PDAers do very much have irrational avoidance which is especially noticeable when we really want to do something fun by choice and there is literally nothing stopping us (including morals, sensory issues, other people etc). We also can hate routines/schedules even when we choose them. While I agree with your other points of what can cause demand avoidance, this video is mostly saying PDA doesn't really exist and is very obviously filled with a lot of internalised ablism from the creator (as an excuse to dismiss it as someone undiagnosed but likely PDA). The DSM-5-TR descriptions of ASC is just as vague as the PDA ones you mentioned. The creator shows a general lack of understanding around the PDA advice about why the wording is the way it is (also it probably isn't officially described why well either). The point of those vague questions is (not too confuse autistics) because PDAers can't handle any pressure and the wording is intended for the person asking the demand to also have no internal expectation of the PDAer (not the other way around) to reduce the anxiety from the demand. This is because PDAers are natural empaths and psychologists, we absorb other people's emotional state and read people's micro facial expressions extremely well to know their intentions, so removing the demands urgency (with wording) or expectation (with other's emotions) is helpful to reduce our anxiety. It is also good to think of PDA internally as extreme demand anxiety. Yes too hungry to eat is real. I can't even go near a to-do list I wrote as it is too demanding. I will literally do everything else first before attempting the number 1 priority item to do (which I know exactly what it is), especially if I place any internal pressure on myself (I can only achieve things in a zero expectation flow state). PDA is very much biological from birth (as behaviour is biological), as well as being an ADHDer and autistic person. If we are coping really well (Iike no anxiety) we can do things but our anxiety increases with every demand or pressure around a demand (I almost had a depressive panic attack by trying to push myself through my own demands with zero sensory issues or people in sight). It is not just being autistic, we have unique behavioural traits from other profiles of autism (which you didn't go through). That said I'm also certain it is reasonably common in our community. Basically don't invalidate/belittle others experiences. Saying it's ok because I'm now likely one of you at the very end to make up for the watered down narrative is just as bad as Sia. The public is not going to know the difference and will take away that PDA is not real. Your strategies mentioned are very good but you also dismiss half of the PDA experience as well. It's not ok to minimise us.

[@Autistic_AF]

Hi Glen, thanks for your feedback. As I discuss in the video, just because something (PDA) is not currently clinically diagnosed doesn’t mean it isn’t real. The symptoms and struggles clearly are. Thanks for being here -Mike

[@mishka623]

I agree…

[@Pouquiloury]

I recognise the struggles immensely. Empathise.

[@briannah1915]

Hidden (maybe not so) famous autists...there are many...da vinci, einstein, ...but my favorite is nikola tesla. He has a special place in my heart along with the sadness of the fact his greatness was squashed by the establishment.

[@jakke1975]

I just don't get the concept of demands... simply asking someone nicely for help has the same effect but has a completely different emotional outcome. I love to help people, even if it's difficult for me but when someone demands something from me, anxiety and loads of negative feelings boil up and if it's a repeating occurrence it will destroy the relationship with that person. I don't think I have the right to control other people's lives and I absolutely hate it when others try to do it with me with their demands.

[@clare_jordin]

I’m the same

[@llars1559]

This is so deeply sad.

[@dabbler1166]

This is a made-up "syndrome". It is NOT in the DSM 5 or the ICD 11. I would say it is not so much "avoiding demands" as it is a simple desire to be left alone and not be asked for anything. "Excuse me, but could you"....as if this somehow grants whoever says it some magic power to instantly get their way, and YOU, need to cave-in to it." Why cant those people, asking you, get through their own day, without needing anything at all from you, even a "small" thing? Imagine a healthy retired person who drives, walks, shops. "Tom" gets up, has his coffee, showers and shaves, and decides to have a relaxing day hanging out at the Library, a coffee shop, a bookstore, the beach, an outdoor park, wherever. He simply wants a peaceful, unhurried, relaxing day. He is NOT required to "engage" anyone, just because they approach him. This is not illegal. He isnt asking anyone else for anything and he gets through his day just fine. Why cant others? He has the right to say no. He has the right to enjoy his day, undisturbed. He isnt their caregiver. But they dont like that. So they invent a syndrome to pathologize him. Thats the problem with Psychology these days. Anyone can fling a "pathology" or diagnosis at anyone else, any time they do something we don t like. So much for freedom, the 4th ammendment and the right to peace-n-quiet.

[@melloroom7510]

Bruh this be sounding like BPD

[@Awakeonuwu]

I was diagnosed with BPD as a white adult male when I was 19, I’m actually Autistic and I don’t even show most of the symptoms of BOD 👀 BPD and autism can be easily mixed up especially if the person evaluating isn’t specialised in Autism. Unfortunately, I have had so many issues with getting mental health help after getting that BPD diagnosis since no one wants to deal with someone diagnosed as BPD. It has such a bad reputation. I need autrizz’em services not BPD services cause I don’t have BOD 😆

[@krugerfuchs]

Course it uses non autistic language it's according to the other group

[@entahlah_dj]

You look like Neil Gaiman in this video

[@Autistic_AF]

Thanks, I think? 😂😂😂

[@truffleandrosalie]

PATHOLOGICAL drive for autonomy

[@Musewhisperer]

PDA is definitely a thing. A pathology is defined as such when it impacts the well-being of the patient or the people around them. Perhaps PDA isn't a symptom in your constellation that shines as bright as the others. Perhaps that's why you don't perceive it as being such a huge, distinct handicap, and you try to tone police it by using the _Pervasive Drive for Autonomy_ politically correct label. Those taxes that you needed to return the day you made the video. How many extensions did you ask for? ...What do you mean, "none"? How about being so incapable of doing things expected of you, especially under duress, that you *can't* fill out your taxes? It is figuratively a constipation of the mind. It is painful, and it is a handicap that literally ruins your life in every dimension. It is a pathology. It probably has comorbidity with OCD and ADHD, since you can also procrastinate _obsessively_ , and you shouldn't denigrate the gravity of PDA by tone-policing it.

[@Autistic_AF]

Thank you for your feedback. -Mike

[@Pouquiloury]

I have (had) bad experiences with taxes, because of PDA and nobody understands it. Had to pay huge penalties. Paralysing, for real.😢

[@missoats8731]

THERE IS A TELEPHONE ANSWERING SERVICE???🤯

[@Autistic_AF]

Yes! Several!

[@missoats8731]

@@Autistic_AF I mean, it makes sense that they exist. I'm just baffled I never thought about something that could be this useful.

[@Autistic_AF]

I’ll make a video to explain soon. :)

[@UsenameTakenWasTaken]

"Pathological." Yeah, that's a british, "psychologist," alright.

[@rainbowvisionart8025]

This is not to trigger anyone or offend. Is it usual for a child with PDA to be extremely foul mouthed and use frequent bad language to other children who they are friends with?

[@Autistic_AF]

There's a story there. If you can give more details, that would be helpful. PDA profile isn't tourettes -and isn't linked to swearing if that's what you mean? Take care, -Mike

[@rainbowvisionart8025]

@@Autistic_AF thanks for replying Mike. Well, my daughter was previously friends with another girl, who are pre teens, and one scenario was that the young girl with PDA said “I want to eat at dominos” I said “that’s too far away but you can choose between two other eateries nearby” this then proceeded to cause her anxiety (I could hear in her voice that she was) and she was one for a better word, ranting about the need for dominos. I continued with the other options and my daughter said “please can you just pick from the two my mum can afford” she then was starting to say rude words to my daughter and laughing saying how she could trigger her and make her cry. This has happened on many occasions before and we had to stop the friendship due to my daughter constantly hearing vile language. Is this a typical PDA response?

[@Autistic_AF]

Nobody needs Dominos. kzbin.info/www/bejne/r4vce61qp9ysi7ssi=FjfJgwVjJ_vkdnq0

[@rainbowvisionart8025]

@@Autistic_AF I really appreciate you navigating me to a very informative upload that you’ve created and it’s explained everything. Thank you

[@Autistic_AF]

You’re very welcome, I appreciate your comment. I’d caution that I/you only have one side of the incident so it’s not possible to say anything for sure - although I’m reasonably safe to say that nobody needs a dominoes. Even if it’s the safe food, it’s not healthy or financially sensible. That said, if the other girl was expecting dominoes, it can be difficult for autistic people to adapt to sudden disappointment/change. Hope this helps!

[@RainbowUnicornPotato]

ROFL! rusty spoons 🥄 that brought back some memories 🥗 loved Salad Fingers

[@chrismaxwell1624]

I'm not convinced demand avoidance is actually real but there was time I thought it was. This was because I had looked or understood my own needs. This what I need to not avoid demands and there could be more I haven't thought of. 1) I need it to be clear that someone wants me to do something 2) I need to know why I have to do something 3) I need to have the spoons available to do those thing 4) I need the confidence in what I'm going do 5) I need consistency in rules 6) I need time to think as I know I can be black and white in thinking and take time view the shades of grey 7) I need thing to sensory friendly to me So even to me my avoidance of demands felt irrational and pathological until I took a look what I needed to do the demands. Now they don't see pathological or irrational at all.