Difference between FR30 and FR20 woofers

The woofer cone materials between the PS Audio aspen FR30 and FR20 are different. Why?

[@crackyflipside]

I would love to watch a series of videos talking about the speaker design!

[@MaterLacrymarum]

The main difference is, I can't afford the most expensive ones and likely won't ever be able to do so. The lower range one is also more than I can afford. Still, they look good in videos. :)

[@stjernholmreviews]

As Always, so great stuff Paul! I am really excited about this construction, WOW! Will love to review them during this year on my channel.

[@ThinkingBetter]

I like the FR10 optimized for flexible placement of one or two excellent PS audio subwoofers.

[@jkwhtsll]

I am missing something (but not FR’s, I have both FR20 and FR10). If I have a source of power limited to, say, 40 watts, I should get the same volume of air motion (sound) regardless of how many speakers (of, course, to a first approximation, presuming each speakers output is linear with applied power).

[@brandonburr4900]

Paul. So would 4 of those lower mass woofers in the fr20 improve the performance if used in a fr30? Thanks!

[@cbrunhaver]

No, the FR20 woofers require a larger box (per woofer), so wouldn’t work in the FR30 design as-is.

[@Stan_the_Belgian]

This also means the f3 is higher I would guess

[@cbrunhaver]

No, these have a softer suspension and lower BL (because the aluminum coil has fewer turns), so the f3 is the same. Sensitivity is about 1 dB less than an FR30

[@JoeJ-8282]

​@@cbrunhaver Thanks for that clarification Chris! Directly from the man himself! Lol!... That's a good thing here because us "techie nerds" want to know the actual facts, not just assumptions made by someone who doesn't REALLY know the how and why of how these speakers are designed, so kudos to you for clarifying this! (Paul is right, in that he really should let YOU do all of the videos about the specifics of this new series of speakers, since you are the primary designer of them! Right?)

[@jkjome4095]

If the motor structure to these woofers is the same (FR30/FR20) but the cone is half the mass (FR20), would that give the edge to the FR20 in its ability to reveal bass texture, detail and decay ("faster" more revealing bass)?

[@googoo-gjoob]

i wouldve assumed it gave the 20 a fighting chance to mimic the 30s output.

[@jareknowak8712]

Yes, if the membrane under the load behaves similarly to the "30". Apart from the difference in the speaker, there are also differences in the casing, as far as i can see. If You are looking for bass like this, look for speakers in sealed boxes.

[@tacofortgens3471]

Are the magnets and windings the same if so, yes it will come close

[@BetterISupposeYeah]

So does that make the FR20 a better value speaker than the FR30

[@larrygaines7462]

Very good explanation

[@edd2771]

Hmm. This answer begs more questions. If, other things equal, a low mass cone is preferable, why didn’t the FR 30 use them already? If not, why not just use the “better” aluminum in the FR 20 and stipulate that it’s a lower efficiency speaker? Even though the FR 20 is “small” compared to the FR 30 it’s still a large speaker and should produce ample volume in most average rooms compared to most bookshelf and small tower speakers on the market, and in the unlikely event you need a bigger amp to drive the better cones so be it. Something doesn’t add up here.

[@dlmp70]

I was thinking the same thing! It doesn’t add up for the reasons you state.

[@guillaumeleclerc3346]

They use the same tweeters and midrange and their efficiency is not getting divided by 2. Therefore they would have to pad them down in the crossover. I assume they want to save cost by mass producing the same crossover for their whole range of speakers

[@fabieneldridge3414]

Would love to hear them in person .

[@user-ge9rw6ug3c]

What I don't get it is when the audiophiles are buying expensive vibration isolators for their subwoofer, speaker stands, speakers, amplifier, turn table .... and here the big, medium, and small are rattling together in one enclosure.

[@donaldleo3448]

Will you be introducing an active FRxx speaker ? Since PS Audio has many good amps already.

[@Justwantahover]

What if you put 4 carbon sandwich woofers in the larger speakers? 😅

[@scheme39]

Is the woofer section sealed off from the midrange and tweeter? Just curious about the design choices made for the FR20. I know the FR30's two box design ensures that the woofers are in their own sealed box.

[@Channel-cm7yc]

You bet it’s sealed off.

[@dougporcaro]

This does leave open logic that FR30's could resolve higher (in addition to the obvious extra power / presence with 2 more) with carbon cones unless there's just something about how aluminum sounds that doesn't show up on the graphs and charts. Or else, despite 50% more mass, the coil is that much more powerful/accurate.

[@yellowwducky]

Kinda was my first thought as well - if they are 'better' why not have them in the flagship and have it even easier to drive at a given power level. I suspect there is some other tradeoff going on with respect to peak output or something else.

[@Channel-cm7yc]

Man…that is a sexy loudspeaker!

[@janinapalmer8368]

I'm not sure if I'll buy that ... what's the difference between efficiency and sensitivity?

[@PSA78]

I have to wait for the FR0.5 😂

[@albertleung3690]

does the back has the +/- adjustments like the FR30 also? I heard 1 KZbinr after he heard the speakers in the show, which we both know not very accurate, they are on the laid back side (btw I prefer rather than aggressive).

[@Acura1NSX]

They may sound good, but there's one problem here. They look upside down and they have zero WAF.... Did you guys at PS audio ever factor that in, LOL???

[@kdomster9141]

Would FR10 have same mid and high drivers and single woofer and radiator while being less tall than FR20 and 30? Sounds like FR10 could be a better match for most living rooms ?

[@stonefree1911]

I think I'm prolly an FR-10 level guy, but the 20 is tempting....

[@INeedsMoneys]

FR0.1 🥲

[@heywoodjablome5630]

How much do you think they're gonna cost in Australia, when available here? Would I benefit from hunting some Genesis II's instead, at the right price?

[@RandySmith-iz1ml]

So, in summary the FR20 is able to play to the same loudness as the FR30 with the about the same amount of watts, is this correct?

[@adriantatum1673]

Paul, at this point, when is the FR10 scheduled to make an appearance?

[@alexisbirungi1745]

FR30 should have been called the FR40. I wish I can one day afford it

[@CobraChamp]

I would imagine, individually, the woofers for the 20 are more expensive than for the 30?

[@keithmoriyama5421]

Then why not use the same composition as the FR20s

[@hiviman]

so arguably with a subwoofer the FR20 is a better speaker then the FR30 ?

[@SrDelbioLima]

You should make subwoofers as well, Paul.

[@googoo-gjoob]

theyre coming.....

[@eemians7026]

Yup. On the road map for 2024

[@albertleung3690]

how heavy is 1 of these?

[@Channel-cm7yc]

You drop on your toe it’s gonna hurt heavy 😅😅

[@michelcouture7026]

Why not lower the mass in the fr30 you would get a more sensitive speaker easier to drive?

[@hoth2112]

The primary trade off for higher sensitivity will be less bass extension down low.

[@Roof_Pizza]

Or maybe have an amp that has the balls.

[@hoth2112]

@@Roof_Pizza sure, but that's a different discussion altogether.

[@Roof_Pizza]

@@hoth2112 If you're gonna have a ~$20k speaker amps shouldn't be an issue. If it is an issue them maybe buying that wimpy tube amp wasn't such a great idea after all.

[@hoth2112]

@@Roof_Pizza again, this is a very different discussion than what I was talking about.

[@Roof_Pizza]

Tweeter height is very different on both, I guess it doesn't matter as much as they say afterall

[@jareknowak8712]

The "whistle" is the easiest to locate (obviously by ear) and the most directional.

[@howardskeivys4184]

So, forgive my ignorance Paul and lack of audio engineering knowledge, but, if the composite materials used in the construction of the woofer cones of the FR20 are twice as efficient as the material used in the construction of the woofer cones in the FR30, would it not make good sense to employ that same, double the efficiency, cones of the FR20 in the FR30? Making the FR30 speakers even more efficient.

[@Paulmcgowanpsaudio]

In a vacuum, yes. What you're missing is that the goal is to match the woofer output to the midrange and tweeter. In the FR30, we have the luxury of using 4 woofers in a larger enclosure to do that. We didn't have that to work with in the FR20 and thus had to come up with another solution. What the FR20 sacrifices is that it won't play as loud but, since it's designed for smaller rooms, that's ok.

[@Technical_Audio]

@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio plus, the heavier cones in the FR30 result in a lower natural resonance (fs) of the FR30 drivers than the FR20, all else being equal. Depending on other design parameters the FR30 should go lower in the low bass.

[@howardskeivys4184]

@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio 👍🍻

[@montynorth3009]

Not sure why the woofers are so near to the floor and distant from the other drivers.

[@Roof_Pizza]

Drivers interacting with the floor. I prefer that to stand mounted speakers.

[@RennieAsh]

They are probably crossed over at a frequency where the distance doesn't need to be tiny

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

You could have padded down the mid and tweeter. I think a consideration is real price would be too similar. Often there is next to no difference between two speakers in the same series. Example: Infinity Kappa 400 vs Kappa 600, same tweeter, same midrange, 8" woofer vs 10" woofer, virtually same footprint. I mean why even bother? Price difference to manufacture was probably $50 between the two. You have to make it appear you're getting something significant by buying the flagship. Different woofers, not just fewer, would do it. Marketing is always in the mix.

[@sudd3660]

interesting, so for that frequency those woofer plays at, what sonic differences or power handling are there for the light vs the heavy cone woofers?

[@hoth2112]

Typically, lighter materials allow for better transient detail like "texture" to come through, especially in the higher frequency ranges of the woofers, but you may lose some of the impact & extension at the bottom end. It's why some people prefer the sound of paper woofers over the stiffer aluminum or poly woofers.

[@geddylee501]

@@hoth2112 no lack of detail in my aluminium driver, would recommend

[@sudd3660]

@@geddylee501 i did some experiments on a 10" aluminium woofer i have, it sounded great with a 2000hz lowpass. its a heavy subwoofer cone .

[@geddylee501]

@@sudd3660 I see, mine's a full range driver so more delicate

[@rorybuszka2215]

More likely you won't hear a sonic difference. Either the rohacell or the aluminum cones will operate as an essentially "perfect" piston (without break-up) in their operating range, which is governed by the crossover. The aluminum cone is just slightly heavier. The resonance of the driver will change as a result of the change in mass, unless the suspension components are also changed. If the suspension components were not changed, then the resonance may be a bit higher. Does this mean less "deep" bass? Well, it depends on enclosure tuning (volume and passive radiator mass), but I think the F3 point of the system could be expected to be a little bit higher. This means that part of the FR30's value proposition would include slightly deeper bass. But would you hear a "significant" difference? Unless the F3 moved upward by more than 1/3 octave, probably not, unless concert bass drums and ultra-low synth bass are your thing.

[@davidfromamerica1871]

How loud do you need it..? Until your ear drums rupture. The speakers come with a warranty. The warranty doesn’t include hearing damage. 😀

[@tn9274]

Maybe if there is FR-00, I might afford it. just a big might.

[@normrubio]

Why do you put the amps on the floor? Seems like bending over would be a pain. Why not elevate your electronics a bit?

[@Roof_Pizza]

So you don't hurt yourself lifting them. My amp is heavy (63 lbs/29 kilos) but nothing like some monsters out there.

[@Luis-Tesla]

La respuesta es el Precio

[@supes323]

I can only afford an FR-01 😢😂

[@kdomster9141]

Hi Paul, so if FR20 is quite sensitive for such large speaker can it be driven by a meaty 150Wpc power amplifier to it's full potential ?

[@b.powell3480]

Hi there, this isn't Paul, but I would like to think that, yes !, you can, however, I believe that the woofer voice coils are the same size and windings. The cone material is very light, compared to the aluminum cone material, so by reducing the weight by about half, the woofers are going to not work as hard, thusly, produce more bass output for a given wattage, I surmise that the audio techs tweeked the crossover network for the woofers to compensate for the lighter cones !, having built many systems myself, I hope this info helps. Just one caveat, make sure to check the maximum power handling of the speakers, you don't want to burn them out !

[@heywoodjablome5630]

@@b.powell3480 I'm sure Paul said that the individual speaker performance was increased to compensate for the lesser number of speakers, thus keeping the 20's performance similar (but not entirely equivalent) to the 30's.

[@b.powell3480]

@@heywoodjablome5630 If I remember, Paul said that they took 2 woofers out and redid the cone material for the other 2 woofers, and the ones they upgraded looks to be shorter in height

[@scarabeo500gt]

Down on your knees Paul? - Bowing to the FR20's...

[@Novilicious]

Where is the center channel dear sir?! Pray tell us

[@artyfhartie2269]

Built in the US by American workers benefiting American economy. Not shareholders pockets

[@tm55555]

More like made in china and imported!

[@artyfhartie2269]

@@tm55555 You mean like Klipsh does with some of their mass produced loudspeakers to boost profits and dividends? Sucks.

[@hoobsgroove]

Yes is a leak invention the sandwich driver, best 15-in drive you can get better than altec

[@RennieAsh]

Many have stiff surround problems though with the age of them these days.

[@hoobsgroove]

@@RennieAsh yes could be right, you could apply some silicon oil, or cut out the surround and put in a foam surround. Another process might work go around with a brush with methylated spirits and immediately afterwards go around with a rubber cement same stuff as a bicycle inner tube patch glue

[@antoniojoseandreomartinez9710]

Like

[@flargosa]

How much will the FR20s sell for?

[@Roof_Pizza]

99.9 % of us will never see them in a customers home so it doesn't matter anyway. BTW, too much.

[@Sebwolf54]

In non freedom currency it’s 24,500€ a pair

[@googoo-gjoob]

website, sheeesh

[@hom2fu]

i heard ball park of $20,000 or 19,995 usd. cannot afford it anyway

[@ACM1000000PT]

come on guys that dark grey looks bad... why not the shiny mirror black?

[@bevrek]

Don't tell me, 11. Bring back Chris.

[@banginghats2]

I thought you were praying to the speaker Gods at one point.

[@Jim-rn7mq]

Too much money.

[@dieseldust27]

Not a fan of the aesthetics