Don't Install Trailing Arms Before You Watch This! Ultimate Land Rover Discovery Build Episode 28

[@BentFabrications]

Just a note to consider. When you put together a trailing arm and limit the movement for the shocks with a wobble stopper, you're keeping that arm vertical to the ground even at full flex. That means all the misalignment of the axle angle has to be available in the joint on the axle side. This is why we sometimes have to step up to a joint even bigger than a 1.25 heim with high misalignment spacers on the rigs with massive travel amounts and flex. Your axle on that may not articulate a lot on that particular build, but those Johny joint style joints are really limited, be sure to cycle the suspension to full flex and confirm that joint is going to be able to handle the misalignment you need.

[@sloppyoppie]

Yup. All those other joints are ok imo for low speed if you can justify a ding from dragging your rig across the trail with a limp control arm. My style is go fast so I now only go fast w/1.25 (or more) heims. A JJ almost killed me.

[@hongmihnhahn7081]

But the bigger heim doesn’t mean more available angle ?

[@hotflashfoto]

A little bit of math for those who scratched their heads when Nate mentioned "25%": When you move the spring 25% from the axle, in order to keep the same ride height, the new spring has to be 33% stronger, not 25%. Use the reciprocal fraction: The spring is 3/4 of the distance from the front to the axle, so the spring has to 4/3 times as strong. Same for the shock valving. The following example includes some rounding to make for fewer fractions... Using Nate's example, imagine that the arm is 4 feet long. You move the spring so that it is now 3 feet from the front joint and 1 foot from the axle. If it had 400 lbs of force at the axle, then there is 100 lbs per foot of arm length. Now at 3 feet from the front joint, you now need to account for that lost 100 lbs of force. So, divide that by the 3 feet and you get 33 lbs, or 33% more spring force needed, not 25 lbs or 25%. That shows that the 400-lb spring would need 33% , or 133 lbs, more force, making it a 533-lb spring. If it had a 300-lb spring, then 33% more would make the new one a 400-lb spring. No matter what size it was, the new size or spring rate will need to be 33% more.

[@DCOJos]

Your next tool should be a lathe and you’ll never have to worry about sourcing issues. I’m sure you knew that already. 😊

[@MacsSpecialitiesMotorsports]

Amen!!

[@branchandfoundry560]

When I got mine I didn't have a specific job in mind, just knew in my gut I needed it. I use it daily sometimes. Definitely the most valuable tool in a metal shop.

[@badgermetal]

Iv used a drill in a vice as a lathe to make custom bushings. Only works on softer stuff but it works.

[@briandrose]

You can almost certainly find your sleeve material/dimensions on McMaster. You're definitely going to pay a premium, but they have everything under the sun in stock. I'm spoiled because the warehouse is a mile down the road from me in SoCal.

[@davesmith8936]

McMaster Carr will call in Norwalk. My happy place! LOL!

[@scooterprint]

Nate, you totally missed the opportunity to call this video "TROPHY TRUCK SUSPENSION SWAP" or something similar. Jokes aside, very happy to see something like this on your channel. I've always been interested in trailing arm style suspension, but haven't seen any good videos on it aside from the standard 4-link setups you'd find on a jeep/similar. Edit: I'd get in touch with ADS (Arizona Desert Suspension) about the bushing material and your coilover valving. I have spoken with them before about coilovers for my truck, and they're super cool people.

[@nrhudec]

FYI, your spring rate estimation is a bit off. To get the same effective spring rate you need to divide the current rate by the square of the motion ratio. New=current/(MR^2). So for example if you current spring rate is 300 lb/in and assuming the motion ratio is .75, then he would need about a 530 lb/in spring to achieve the same effective stiffness.

[@gregsmithracing4479]

Came here to say this, and for example if your shock mounting was mid point(50%) of the trailing arm it would be a 1200 lb/in spring(300 lb/in effective wheel rate). I think Nate’s guess of 300 lb/in is high though. I don’t know his weight, travel, and target ride height, but my 7k lb land cruiser had an effective rate of about 130ish lbs/in. With less travel ~200 lb/in sounds more realistic.

[@vincentbentley1079]

@@gregsmithracing4479 I guess in normal use the design is also factoring in the spring rate of a pressurized air-spring. However, if that air-spring is designed to be mechanically constrained by a coil spring, I have no idea what it will do without the containment.

[@LukeEdward]

THANK YOU! Even without the mathematical formula, take the opposite view of the measurement of torque. Moving out 100% further - or in reverse, 50% inward, you would be applying double the amount of force. If you are 3x out from the center, and you move to 4x length, that would be a 33% increase on torque, not 25%.

[@branchandfoundry560]

Grateful you posted this info! Sitting here thinking it can't simply be linear like Nate's saying, but what do I know?!?

[@EngiTrek]

Perfect time to get yourself a lathe! Make your own sleeves and then whip out a set of delrin bushings the correct length!

[@loganrichardson5385]

For the sleeves, order some 3/4 rod and cut/drill to your length. Or I'm sure you could have a machine shop make you some also.

[@AddictedCreationz]

Nate, great episode. Got a tip for you for your forklift: convert your tank to a standard 20 lb grille tank. Easier & faster to fill (just swap), and you don't have to worry about tank recertification. I did this to mine and love it...

[@zd533]

Not sure if 4130 is the right material, but McMaster has .750OD, .620ID cold roll tube. Not sure if .005" on the ID will be an issue... The PN is 89955K599 Very informative video, definitely appreciate the time you put into these.

[@michaeldurling793]

Yup McMaster was going to be my best suggestion, my experience is they have almost anything and everything under one roof.

[@lifelinefabllc]

Funny. I went straight to McMaster and found the same thing. They really don't have it. I doubt a plated bolt would fit .620 but maybe. I also think I would want something rust resistant for the bushing like stainless or 4140.

[@skylinesandro]

@@lifelinefabllc they have 0.634 ID which would probably be fine. That's part #89955K158

[@DirtLifestyle]

Thank you! This is certainly an option if I need it

[@holdthatdown6695]

Nate try ruffstuff for the inner sleeve

[@BumDogSuMo]

Yup. I made a wide busing mount for my Atlas and got a long 9/16 inner diameter sleeve from RuffStuff

[@troydecker9685]

I really want to 4link my 1990 Suburban but it’s a daily driver and occasionally a trail rig. Thanks for the Trailing arm info. Just more information to make a educated decision

[@talon0863]

For longer bushings, you can use 3 of those instead of two. Cut the third down to fit in the center.

[@simon-mouse8739]

Exactly what I was thinking just cut a 3rd bush down to take up the slack/gap 👍

[@VaanillaGorilla]

Might be time to add a metal lathe to your arsenal of tools.

[@DirtLifestyle]

Man I wish!

[@JW-cn6op]

You definatley need a lathe.Even a bench top model would work for tons of smaller parts like this and keep you rolling through a project rather than waiting days or more for a part.

[@DirtLifestyle]

Hopefully one day

[@chopperchuck]

After 40 years of fab/welding I look forward to your videos to see what and how your going to build your next project , good job Nate

[@DirtLifestyle]

Thanks brother, I appreciate the kind words 🙏.

[@ratfarmers]

Mmmmmm...... you said cake! That Evolution magnetic drill is now totally on my Christmas want list! Thanks! That Barnes arm kit is like metal legos for fabricators! Very cool!

[@thelonewrangler1008]

That trailing arm is a work of art. I'd definitely beef up those frame mounts too

[@rjm7168]

I think your spring rate math is wrong. If your spring is located 25% short of the axle, then it's 3/4 of the way from the pivot point. So, since the spring moment arm is 3/4 the length of the axle moment arm, the new spring should be 4/3 (reciprocal of 3/4) of the original spring rate, which is 33% more - barring other changes of course.

[@grabberorange5663]

Nailed it.

[@nrhudec]

@rjm that's still not quite right. To get the same effective spring rate you need to divide the current rate by the square of the motion ratio. New=current/(MR^2). So for example if his current spring rate is 300 lb/in and motion ratio is .75 like you assume, then he would need about a 530 lb/in spring to achieve the same effective stiffness.

[@Jay-uh2jb]

Yes, I hope he realizes the 25% and 50% he describes does not directly translate to spring rate increase he needs. The increase needed is far higher.

[@DirtLifestyle]

I completely agree and I want to elaborate a bit in the next episode. The problem is finding dead reliable equations that I can communicate to my viewers with confidence. I've seen a few different ways to calculate this, and all have a different conclusions. They way we are doing this is the basic rule of thumb to get us close, then measure what rate we need based on the sag of the springs we have. Not very scientific but pretty standard in the offroad world unfortunately. Finding this info online from a reliable source is tough but I will dig into this issue deeper in the next video 👍

[@EricaMTB]

Your maths for spring leverage is wrong. Moving the mount in 50% will increase leverage 100%. It's x/0.5=2x

[@DirtLifestyle]

Yep

[@gregtennyson]

Thanks for inspiration to get off my ass and finish my bumper. Glad to see you making videos again ✌🏼

[@DirtLifestyle]

Get out there!!!

[@mikejensen-fogt4662]

Nate, once you have a lathe, things like that sleeve are never a problem for a build.... take a piece of 3/4" bar stock and punch a 5/8" drill down the center... I love fabricating! but learning how to machine took my fabrication skills to the next level! having a lathe and mill at home is so dang handy for things like that lol....

[@artyseibert]

Check out McMaster-Carr for the sleeves. They might have what you need

[@robbase2285]

Should do a video on shock placement on a rear axle. Front, rear or 1 front 1rear.

[@chuckieswickedgoodfab]

great explanation of trailing arm pro-con, it was very insightful. Always great content!!!

[@scottyh72]

Thanks for bringing up shock valving. It is too often overlooked. I just revalved my Fox 2.0's, and made my leaf spring rig ride much nicer than the internet says it should.

[@ItAintJustPaint]

You can buy 3/4 steel tube @ Home Depot that’s 1/16 wall, that gives you 5/8 ID

[@Fix_It_Again_Tony]

That's not a bad idea, just need to remove the weld seem on the inside.

[@DirtLifestyle]

Interesting. I will go look at home depot today 👍

[@kevinshaber8742]

I have 20' of 3/4x5/8 tube for exactly the same application. Be happy to send you some. I'll have to share my trailing arm setup when I finish in a couple months. Mine is going to be four-corner all air.

[@timcope6685]

It's always a good Sunday morning when I get to watch Nate building something and I get to learn at the same time! Suspension's are really interesting, the geometry involved is fascinating to say the least!! Happy Thanksgiving Nate and to all of yours!

[@DownNDirty_OffRoad]

Been thinking about this setup and you are helping me a lot on questions I had. Watching this to the end for all the info I can get!!😃

[@DirtLifestyle]

Happy to help 👊

[@ryanaustin2617]

I love your upgrade series on the Disco 2. I own one and love it. If I ever win a lottery, I'll send my Disco to your shop (as a project, I know you are not a garage). Keep up the good work.

[@nickcowley8757]

Love being able to see the changes in plan with the explanation of why! Super cool to see the process

[@senorarnold]

Aircraft Spruce and Specialty Co. sell seemless tubing in all different ODs and IDs by the foot. I did a quick check and they have 3/4 OD with a .620 ID slightly smaller than 5/8. Hope this helps.

[@thumpstar12502]

I agree . then just buy a .625 carbide tip reamer and open it up if you have to .

[@richardworley2746]

Tractor supply has bushing sleeves. In a pinch that's where I usually go.

[@johnyhawgleg]

I used to work in a spring shop making custom leaf springs and repairing/replacing bushings. Get ahold of your local heavy truck/semi truck spring shop. If you are going to be greasing this you will want a hard brass/bronze bushing in the center of the neoprene outer bushing. That will have a really good long term wear quality without having to worry about the bolts seizing in the bushing.

[@ultra4suzukisamurai679]

McMaster Carr is a good source for tube for sleeves. Not the cheapest but convenient.

[@BigFishOverlanding]

The fab work you do is so cool to watch. Thanks for posting this man.

[@Defender110SLO]

Owsome arms you made. Insane. 😍 Cheers. 🍻

[@TheMrhick92]

Maybe the sleeves for a set of leafspring bushings would work

[@davidlong3247]

Nice! Love to see fabrication.

[@270Remi]

1/2 sched 40 black iron pipe is about 3/4 od by 5/8 id

[@CodyCrafted]

And butter soft with an inconsistent wall thickness, and a seam.

[@georgemitchell8991]

Super interesting. I think I'm going to play with trailing arms soon. Thanks for the video!!

[@DirtLifestyle]

Thanks for watching! Good luck with the trailing arm experimentation 😁

[@georgemitchell8991]

@@DirtLifestyle I really like what you said about the aluminum I had no idea that it bounces back. And I was thinking about doing the kind you're making but after you said it's not good for rocks I'm thinking differently now

[@randumadventures]

Dam really making me reconsider all the time I put into my leaf spring setup

[@Steddywelly]

Can you make a video on air suspension ? How it differs in suspension dynamics than a coil spring

[@highcountrystories]

I think I heard you say you were going to drill that sleeve for a zert to grease your bushings.. not sure any way very nice build!!

[@skyhook040]

I'm stretching my TJ to LJ length and pushing back my axle. What would you say would be the longest that you would make the control arms?

[@mikemorgan4670]

Very interesting. Always appreciate your explanations of the engineering. Thanks. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family Nate!

[@DirtLifestyle]

Thank you! Happy Thanksgiving!

[@muddiexj]

Try McMaster Carr for the bushing material. They won't be cheap but if they have it you can buy it in various lengths depending on your needs and it ships quickly.

[@S_Stanley29]

For sleeping could check dirt king they have loads of builder parts

[@SWFabrication.]

That trailing arm is pretty slick. Nice to see them not 55 or 60 inches long and as a WIY kit. Looking forward to the end result on this one.

[@vincentcarriere183]

Super stocked to see à suspension video on this channel its the reason I subscribed in the first place 🙆‍♂️

[@MacsSpecialitiesMotorsports]

Excited to see how your experiment turns out for you!

[@jiggyquinn5635]

Thank you

[@josephvavken3235]

McMaster Carr awesome website for random material, great job explaining everything. Really enjoy all the different builds. What’s going on with the tdi engine build?

[@dalemcbride7299]

Happy Thanks Giving why not have the selves machined to your spec? rather than trying to buy them??

[@StormbornJKU]

The amount of beef on that trailing arm just makes me believe that the frame side mount is going to rip right off. I’d suggest getting some mounts from Barnes and cutting the factory ones off and welding on some beefier ones.

[@bosqueboys]

What is that clamp setup on your evolution saw?

[@Flitzer514]

Time for a lathe, Nate! A 12" or 13" would be nice.

[@PNW_Rodeo]

There are a few companies that sell custom length builder bushings. On my Rodeo the oe bushing is 2.75" which isn't very common. I bought my custom length bushings from ruffstuff. 👍

[@Jeeps.offroad]

It's always a pleasure watching you content 👍🏻

[@davesmith8936]

I'm confused. Will that stock airbag work without a coil around it for support? Seems to me that it will need something or it will just bow out to the side.

[@PaulKaiser42]

I understand that you are going to strengthen the disco’s suspension with the trailing arms but (I likely missed this in your description) what are the additional benefits you get from them? When building my rig I always tried to consider building in lightness….this seems to be just the opposite 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@BradPickett685]

metal supermarkets for the bushing sleeve

[@dandahermitseals5582]

When I was a kid lots of cars still had the drive shaft in a pipe with a tapered tubular on each side to eep the axle square. A big strong tubular triangle. Studebaker light trucks axles were like that. This is just a modern rendition of that original technique.

[@mikeburris9856]

Did you try Prothane? I’ve had great luck with them in the past.

[@vincentbentley1079]

It's an interesting project that I will watch to see how it turns out. Have you considered using a swaybar with disconnects (in cab control or manual) for the rear suspension? A rear swaybar would enable you to valve the shocks to precisely control bump and rebound, tuning the swaybar to control body roll for a better ride.

[@SHOOT_NDX]

I love your Taco & all of your wheeling & building videos. I think you do a really great job. I’m also really impressed with your building, wheeling, breaking & then rebuilding the vehicles. Keep it up & I just bought a new Tundra if you’re interested in doing some work on it. LOL

[@GarageBuiltRoss]

Can these trailing arms be used on the front so that you can do front coil overs as well? Looking at doing something similar on my Disco2

[@minimule1]

I have to say nice work I love the disco . I have a D1 and a RRC 2 door . My RRC I think in my mind has the perfect rear suspension because the load leveler in the back upper A frame allows for a lot of axle flex WAY more than a D1 ever had. If your loading up the RRC a lot you can still have a very soft ride and install a Defender 110 load leveler and it will carry a lot more weight . The axles will need to be up graded which is why I have a factory front and rear D60 . With the axle up can get for the D60 axles they can be built up super strong and still fit under a rover with out making a 1ton axle set up . Tony

[@albertfetting736]

Go to an Ag store, tractor supply , John Deere, Kubota and ask for bushing sleeves for control on 3 pt hitches.

[@kyles360]

Just used dirtlifestyle coupon at barns and saved $81.00 on my link kit for my samurai. Have you ever thought about making anti squat/roll information videos? You usually go into extreme detail on most things love your videos I believe I have watched every one by now. Keep it up Nate. 🤘🏾

[@toddr1124]

It sounds like you want the airbag ride, so how are you going to keep the coilover from influencing things, especially if it is sized to be independently capable? Are you going to pull the spring off of it so it's just a shock, and then be able to put the spring on if the airbag fails? If you run both systems in tandem, pretty sure that rear will be stiff as all get out.

[@sas86toy]

Love the extra metal wrap around, something I would of done🤘🏼

[@vetguy2562]

I can't even wait to see this build YEAH 🤘

[@Escape.Idiocracy]

Maaaaaan I’m think the gladiator needs trailing arms too- like the hybrid high clearance kind.

[@tracykooken2606]

Am I wrong but they r not for a rig that does towing ???? Not to mention the added weight.

[@simontorma3717]

I think by making the sleeve wider you will increase the leverage and pressure on the bushing, forcing it to accommodate for more movement, making every movement of suspension under articulation more impactful to the joint and hence you will put it through more abuse... But I might be mistaken

[@DirtLifestyle]

First off, thanks for the comment 👍. Second, making it wider should magnify the strength of the bushing. If I made the bushing footprint narrower, it would be easier for the arm to apply side to side force (leverage) to the bushing. If the footprint of the bushing is wider, the arm can apply less force (leverage). But, the upper control arms are triangulated and they control the side to side movement. So in reality the bushing will likely have the same service life whether they are narrow or wide because there will be very little side load. Thanks for watching brother

[@simontorma3717]

Hey Nate, thanks for the relly! What I ment was, since the upper control arms are triangulated, the pivoting point of the axle when flexing one wheel up is basically in the middle between the two mounting points of the upper control arms. The bigger the distance between planes created by upper and lower mounts on the axle, the more side to side movement will the lower control arms do under articulation(flexing). This in turn is going to be in my opinion a factor in the lifespan of the bushings on the front of the trailing arms, since the bushing is going to be wider in this case, thus providing more resistance against side to side movements. That being said, I agree with the fact that the control arms is going to have a lower tendency to "roll". Since your mounting points of the shock is in line with the front and rear trailing arm mounting points, it should not really have a large urge to do so though, with the exception of when you are actually sliding over an obstackle with your trailing arm as the contact point. *sorry if my explaining is confusing, not my mother tongue*

[@M1ST3RHYDE]

On ebay "steel tubing 3/4 5/8" under $20 with shipping from N.Carolina

[@jeremy8715]

Wouldn’t the extra weight below the frame help with balancing top heavy vehicles (and potentially off-camber situations)?

[@DirtLifestyle]

Kind of. It's half sprung and half unsprung. BUT it's below the roll over axis so it kind of helps lol.

[@simon-mouse8739]

Nate, are you using extended / Longer air bags or stock? They are now available in longer lengths in case you weren't aware 👍

[@TheEinart]

Love your work, i see also you have a hole in your hoodie, something familiar with that 😅

[@lifelinefabllc]

My suggestion is have a local fab shop just drill some 3/4" 4140 ground and polished shaft. I could do it and mail them but it would probably be cheaper and quicker if you have a relationship with a local fab shop. If you want me to do them let me know but I will have to go source the shaft as I don't have any that small.

[@DirtLifestyle]

I appreciate it! I think I have it handled now, but thanks again 👌

[@Jodah175]

Next tool on your xmas wish list: a small lathe. :-)

[@AndoLife]

What’s up Nate, another great video brotha! Quick question, do you have a link to your evolution saw, magnetic drill press, and belt sander? Or at least names of them! Thanks brotha!

[@DirtLifestyle]

The saw and drill press are on the evolution power tools website. We have a discount code "dirtlifestyle". I think it's 5%? The belt sander is from a company called Ameribrade 👍

[@AndoLife]

@@DirtLifestyle cool bro!

[@AndoLife]

Have you looked at TMRcustom? They may have the DOM tube you are looking for!

[@johnbishop1911]

I've been looking at doing that to a CJ7. Has anyone tried doing trailing arms on both axles?

[@CodyCrafted]

Technically it's a leading arm at that point. Dirt head Dave did on Mazgrande with air bags.

[@DirtLifestyle]

I see leading arms online every once in a while, but I think the only ones I've seen in person were on a rock bouncer. Not super common but could be an option for the right build 👌

[@justincmw]

Try McMaster for the sleeve

[@talon0863]

Thanks Nate, I jumped on this topic. Can you get shock oil 30% more viscous than, I don't know what Bilsteins come with, if it were 7w then go to a 10w, etc.? IDK about Bilstein but Ive been doing this with dirtbike suspensions for decades.

[@RealGumbyOfficial]

McMaster carries a couple options that might work for the sleeves like 89495K185, 5/8 OD and .385 ID made of stainless steal… also there a couple spring rate calculator online that can help you determine the rate of any spring you have based on the length, thickness and number of coils etc. Cheers to the best mod in offroad: suspension🍺

[@ogre3675]

buy a 3/4 od sleeve and drill it out to 5/8 id. take next to no time

[@michaelw2304]

Sounds like you need a lathe?

[@vincentpoole7588]

Nate. One should've increased your D2a wheelbase from 100" to 108" if the plan was to run 42 inch tyres sir ! Is this going to reduce the weight of this rather hefty Land Rover D2a ? V.

[@michaelkeefer1471]

I'm with Jeff, You need a lathe.

[@LukeEdward]

For what reason could you not have someone lathe a piece of steel tubing to your intended ID & OD? Then, you just cut whatever length you need?

[@jamesvanhoose3132]

McMaster Carr had the tubing. .75 is. OD and 6.2 ID. You may need to drill out the center slightly I know. But it's the best place I can find without buying 100 feet of it. Also ruff stuff does custom bushed DOM. Maybe Barnes does too. I would with McMaster. Good luck.

[@greghoffstadt667]

As always. Great video. Learn a hella metric ton from you. Side bar....... I don't mind reading the comintary. But, is there a way to change the text color to something a little easier to read. It's probably me. But, was curious.

[@mattuebelacker1963]

Hey nate love what ur doing, for the sleeves how about some smaller diameter d.o.m tubing. That stuff is made very accurately but be sure on ur measurements bcuz that bushings u were holding up looked thicker than 1/16"/ side going off the 3/4 od and 5/8 id u mentioned! Goodluck bud!

[@Kami8705]

McMaster and find somebody with a lathe, would be a simple job

[@crwallis2208]

Have you looked at McMaster carr

[@theautoanswerman8063]

Have you checked McMaster Carr?

[@jacobstein7179]

Nate, do the springs have any writing on them? They are almost certainly RTE (formerly RoverTyme) springs. The rears are usually rated for about 440 lbs on the lift you have. If you have the numbers you can call and get the exact spring rate, it's just one guy.