This Is the WORST Part of Warhammer.

[@jurassicdragon4989]

That intro is gold! The last part with "it's all in here, you can check it if you want," is the perfect summation of the game. No, I'm not going to waste more time double checking the rules by sifting through 45 books, in this game that still has 2 and half hours on the clock assuming we don't have to double check FURTHER rules. Just say whatever and I'll take your word for it dude.

[@andresaguilar723]

Hahaha exactly

[@DiscourseMinis]

Haha! Glad you enjoyed :D

[@kingsnogaryen6292]

Sounds like a meta that could easily be cheated. I wouldn't do that, but if I didn't know my opponent I would always wonder what they would do...

[@zaganim3813]

@@kingsnogaryen6292 well in todays age you can just fucking google a rule and get answers pretty fast

[@mofinebovine1597]

And even if you do double check, the person you are playing against has somehow managed to skull-love the English language and twist GW's ambiguously written rules to mean whatever they want them to mean to suit themselves.

[@omegaomtv]

You hit it. The overwhelming complex rules that chain multiple books, makes strategy impossible unless you can somehow learn every army. That is main reason I quit. I sold my two armies, and now I am going to 3d print new armies for Onepagerules . Free rules. Every army shares same stratagems if you use them, so you know them. You missed one point if I didnt catch it, is that the codex is pretty much useless after a year when you have to buy the chapter approved book every year to get the changed unit stats.

[@freedom2663]

Yeah. It's almost like they do it because they want you to buy more. Almost.

[@DiscourseMinis]

Yeah, I missed the part about planned obsolescence, got cut unfortunately, but it's a really good point to raise. Utterly invalidates your army down the line, then you're given something new to buy and a bunch of FAQs to make heads or tails of... Onepagerules sounds good!

[@andtheinternettkills]

Codexes should be sold for fluff and art purposes. The gold standard of all GW publications is the Mordheim rulebook from 1999. If I want rules and datasheets I just use Wahapedia as its easier to look up and theres no need to lug several books around.

[@DiscourseMinis]

Yeah, totally agreed! The idea of a faction book is really cool, but it's not necessary anymore to sell as a product for the purpose of army creation / rules

[@andtheinternettkills]

@Cinninnimon Skoda the fluff in the eldar codexes is quite recycled. The opening text for the 8th ed craftworld codex is identical to the 2nd ed opening for example.

[@blackdemonrala]

Mordheim was my intro game🤘

[@terratorment2940]

My biggest regret with getting into wargaming last year was that I started with Warhammer. I should have started with Kings of War or one page rules. I would have wasted a lot less money and also not had to deal with all this nonsense with codexes and a bad game. Warhammer 40K and Warhammer age of sigma are bad games because of the things they do to siphon more money off of the fandom. They are in a position of having this network effect that let them exploit their audience. But the game is bad because of these things that you're citing. The codex is really are the worst feature of Warhammer.

[@knowbody223]

that GW siphons more money off of the players does not necessarily make 40K / AOS bad games. One could just stay at one edition one likes and not chase the newest meta. Bad practice of the company avoided :)

[@jdlightsey]

Same for me. The silly way the rules have to be stitched together by hand from multiple overpriced books and FAQ PDFs stood out as abusive and unhelpful monetization really quick. My enthusiasm for 40K started to drop when I read "The Greater Good" to see the GSC rules hidden there and saw that the relevant information was so tiny it could have just been added to the codex FAQ PDF. The pricing on the chapter approved book (for point costs) and the silliness of this dry spreadsheet data being in a book + FAQ PDF sapped my interest even more. The final straw was the aggressive pushing of the idea that only GW products are allowed when playing 40k. I don't know how much people pay attention to that in the real world, but the idea that I'll get in trouble for photocopying the relevant pages from multiple books and FAQs into a binder to make understanding it possible during a game makes me reluctant to even try playing the game now. Given how bad the organization of the rules is, I assume many players are doing this kind of thing already...but GW comes off so hostile towards anything that might "save a buck" I have to assume someone somewhere thinks lugging around the physical books and printouts of the FAQs is a hard requirement if you're going to use any rules from the book. I can stomach the models being expensive and the extreme time investment required to paint the models, but the book treadmill seems completely unreasonable to me. I wish I had spent my time painting WW2 miniatures instead of 40k. At least I'd still have some enthusiasm about actually playing the game at some point. GW's approach makes the idea of playing 40k a job, not a game.

[@terratorment2940]

This problem that you're highlighting is the reason why I've gotten into Kings of War which has all the goddamn rules and all the different factions in just one book or an expansion book. There's also one page rules which is free. I love that paradigm

[@DiscourseMinis]

Yup, these are far better models for customers!

[@peterdickinson4599]

Same here. 3rd Ed KoW rules on my table. Abyssal Dwarf mega army in the post. Actually excited to get some multi-basing done.

[@colinmack8655]

I love kings of war myself

[@Sifuben]

Yeah I've definitely been a convert to both systems.

[@kingsnogaryen6292]

Gonna have to check out KoW

[@strongbif]

You describe some of the reasons One Page Rules has seen their Patreon grow by like 2000 patrons in the past few months.

[@HeribertoEstolano]

I was scrooling through the comments just to see if anyone had already talked about OPR. It seems this comment as much as OPR is still not getting all the love it deserves.

[@settispaghetti2273]

@@HeribertoEstolano I used to shill for OPR like a madman years ago, now I see comments about them under every video taking a hard look at 40k complexity. Fun stuff! Their games are good and their minis are starting to look decent too!

[@awerges2205]

Did you notice in 3rd edition, they're no longer giving the warscrolls for the units for free on the website? The new models do not have one.

[@DiscourseMinis]

Oh no!! I didn't notice that! Ugh, that's like... the opposite direction they should be heading. I guess GW are growing more confident in their ability to sell AoS...

[@derionone]

Yeah game got a decent fan base over the years and now that people are hooked GW showing their true face ...

[@rmkarros]

so supposedly you will still be able to see the qarscrolls on the app even after it goes out if betta. but it still sucks they took it away from the store page as I honestly used to use it to help with purchasing decisions and honestly the warscrolls on the web store where often times more up to date the the old app was.

[@kamerionsmith4551]

@@rmkarros gw doesnt want people to smart shop they love them impulsively buying anything that looks cool

[@braddoc4087]

The old, Old warscrolls are all gone, they were there for about 9 months before they quietly got erased...'musa been the goofy rules some units had (like you can re-roll your attacks if you got a mustache, or a hat, or drinking something)

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

IIRC GW claimed they were going to simplify rules with 8th, but... what's the point when most basic troop units have several special rules, some of which change depending on what colour they're painted?

[@DiscourseMinis]

Yeah.... I mean, at first that was sort of true, and the index system made for a pretty balanced game, but the bloat came thick and fast and now here we are lol And totally agreed on the special rules...

[@TheGoGoat91]

I cringe a little bit when people talk about "competitive 40k" i mean you can do it, but when a game that has balance issues, not as a bug, but as a design feature, you're not gonna have much fun with it, besides the fact you need a thicc bank account to afford buying a 2k list at once, nevermind a commission painter that assembles and paints everything in a reasonable pace so you can play the army before they're out of the meta. Not my idea of fun or good financial decisions for that matter 😂 I guess some day I'll bug one of my friends enough to actually play a one page rules system

[@Sheepdog416]

Competitive 40k is nothing more than a joke

[@luluhammer]

yes, I find Competitive hobbying an oxymoron, it defeats the idea of hobby for me (hobby to me is about enjoyment, relaxing, a breack from pressure in such a demanding society with unachievable standards, etc) . And as a community its a very minor but loud and toxic community, is a very aggressive community, divisive and unwelcoming to new comers. I cringe at how "competitive" players bitch about GW as if their livelihoods depended on winning a match every week, when most barely ever play and only feed into the meta chasing FOMO drama.

[@Remixersoloman]

If they would take some of the strategy/tactical choices out of the codex and stratagems and onto the battlefield (things like flanking bonuses, better cover system, tiered vehicle armor, etc) that rewards you for playing smart on the battlefield it would be a lot more fun, but as it is now it seems like games are mostly won in the list building phase.

[@oblivionfan345Tony]

I've only ever played on Tabletop Simulator and even when all the rules are baked into your models (just have to hover your mouse over them for stats, or press 1 for a full data sheet) its STILL such a hassle to play unless you've got a really good handle on your army. Not to mention if you're a new player like me and dont know any rules for any other factions you're basically just trusting that your opponent won't cheat

[@munchinbiscuits]

You know a video is good when you have multiple things you want to comment on. I remember getting into 40k back in 3rd ed, grabbing the starter box which had such a solid rulebook. I felt like I knew every faction and there were tons of pictures. Then came the codex introduction... and me standing there in the gw store, confused as to why the, rulebook, didn't contain all my rules and that to play Blood Angels I had to buy this puny looking codex. Little did I know that in the space of maybe 25 pages, you got, solid lore, paint schemes (including successor schemes), tons of photos, unit lore breakdown, key units, existing armies and so much more. I'm sat here looking at my 8th/9th ed codicies thinking where did my content go. Where's the lore, why don't I have pictures for each unit, where's my paint scheme deep dive, why are you pushing the combat patrol (inculding the one that isn't a legal army). I'll save the supplement rant for another video...

[@lukecasey2830]

I activate my trap card, the kill-everything stratagem from this years 5th faction supplement! Warhammer is slowly becoming Yu-Gi-Oh

[@DiscourseMinis]

What is the stratagem equivalent of blue eyes white dragon?

[@lukecasey2830]

@@DiscourseMinis Blue eyes white dragon, not sure, but kill everything stratagem, Endless Cacophony. The visions, the trauma

[@miketike3246]

GW supplements used to be legitimate products that you would buy for an army's full rules and point listings. But increasingly over the years they've manipulated them as "supplements" and instead use them as a way to purposely scatter and disperse necessary stats and rules among several publications so that you are forced to buy all of them. Now they even put essential rules for certain factions locked away in limited edition, expensive boxed sets where you can spend $100 just to get three stat lines. As she pointed out, it would indeed be like getting the game Monopoly and when you open the box you discover that the "Core box" only has rules for moving pieces and buying real estate, but has no rules for things like placing houses, hotels or how to get out of Jail, and only has half the money needed to play the full game. They are ALL essential rules and items to playing the game correctly. But GW makes it into a freaking luxury privilege simply having all the rules in one place for one price. If GW sold Monopoly there would be a core box for $75, three rules supplements for $25 each, and then they'd sell you the damn cards separately for like $15 a pack. OH, and you want the rest of that paper money so that four people can play the game? Sure, here's a "paper money booster pack" for $20. OH, and course it would all be "act now before you miss out!" crap. If Milton Bradley ever actually did that with Monopoly, people would simply not buy it. There is no way anyone would put up with that. And Milton Bradley would have to quickly go back to selling the game the right way. It's kind of amazing how we put up with this from GW, when in virtually no other situation would we accept it.

[@elfbait3774]

My happy sweet spot for army lists was back in 1980s WHFB and Warhammer 40K. I liked the black and white unit stat boxes like we had in Warhammer Armies and the earlier 40K army lists. Easy to read and easy to collect in one place. We almost all moved them to notebooks and even copied them into unit cards. They shifted from rules as a vehicle to sell models to rules as a product in their own right.

[@MiniatureMasterClass]

That opening skit makes me not want to play Warhammer. You are also 100% right @10:13 and that is why the very idea of competitive 40K is a joke.

[@dennisl548]

As a new comer to the warhammer 40k world, I bought a death watch kill team starter set around 2018-2019 and found it was really complicated and expensive to be able to play. I still have a hard time knowing what to equip on my models or how the most effective for war gaming. I ended up getting Artra Militarum and just feel overwhelmed with the codex and now I think I have to purchase a core rule book as well.

[@colewrathman4472]

I like the way Kings Of War (and pretty much every other game) does it. At most you have a separate book or two for all your armies. GW doesn't have gamers making these types of decisions though. Its their large share holders like JP Morgan and Aberdeen Standard Investments that tell them how to do things....

[@DiscourseMinis]

Yup! 100% If they are insistent on the separate book - which I'm not completely opposed to - then it should look more like the 8th edition Index system imo

[@michaelsudsysutherland5353]

One of the biggest reasons I got into Killteam (2018) was the core rules had ALL the stats for ALL the factions. For a time, I even bought more plastic to fill out a couple factions worth of Killteams.... As a hard core Xenos player, I actually bought Tactical Space Marines and Scouts.... Then they killed it. Now I'm back to older games that have come back from the dead (*cough* Battletech *cough*) that have 90% of what you need on your unit record sheets, and FREE quick reference cards of several styles and varieties. After all, it makes that complex system of tracking damage all the more easier during a game...

[@Aurica34]

OMG YES, you finally touch on the DLCs and codex bloat and power creep! Long have I awaited for this, hilarious skit btw

[@DiscourseMinis]

Haha glad you enjoyed! And yeah, I have a lot to talk about these topics!

[@beyond_hope]

It's not just 40K. AOS Battletomes keep getting updated. Warcry had an initial release, then extra faction unit cards, then an annual with everything updated and now a new faction book for each of the 4 different Alliances. And the new Kill Team got the Core Rules with no unit stats. That came in another book, the Compendium. But wait... now new updated unit details are being released in White Dwarf and quarterly battle boxes with minis and terrain. GW have monetised practically every part of their games. Can't wait for them to start charging for access to their stores and website :)

[@DiscourseMinis]

Yeah, it's a real pity because AoS actually had the potential to represent a new way of doing business. They sort of dipped their toe in the water of providing free unit rules, and really easy access to those rules too! Then they promptly drew up the draw bridge again and started charging a crazy price for them...

[@BrickworksDK]

"Can't wait for them to start charging for access to their stores and website :)" They've already begun with Warhammer+. How long will it be, I wonder, before we'll see exclusive rules on that platform?

[@jayw3803]

That's why I dropped AOS- when my bloodhound had three books in one edition...

[@adriannaranjo4397]

That intro hit me where I lived I played "1200" points of Tyranids when I first started, which was basically my entire collection and some unnecessary upgrades to fluff it out. This guy who'd pick on new players would bring X amount of formations and fortifications like the Skyhammer annihilation squad, imperial bastion & aegis defense line. Infantry behind the wall, tanks and heavy weapons parked in a literal circle around the bastion, and commanders/snipers on top/inside the building. And he kept saying it was 100% fair & balanced against me while I kept getting tabled by turn 2-3. It's a miracle I didnt quit the tabletop hobby

[@adriannaranjo4397]

Oh and he was one of *those guys* who'd take rules super literal. So he'd plant the Bastion first & make it so it'd be barely touching the edge of a big terrain piece (when theres tons of space else to fit it) and say RAW the entire terrain piece had to be removed to "make room". Leaving his entire army in an empty _no mans land_ I'd desperately fling my 1 Carnifex & 2 squads of gaunts at.

[@Pugiron]

If Warhammer players were smart enough to demand fair value, they would be too smart to play Warhammer

[@davidbowles7281]

Sigh. Agreed.

[@arielsanchez465]

I have small armies of Tau, SM, Necrons and a medium/large army of 1k Sons/Tzeentch. I'm absolutely not buying a rule book, 4 codexes and one supplement (successor SM chapter). One Page Rules solved that problem.

[@DiscourseMinis]

Yeah, it really punishes players for spreading out and collecting a variety of miniatures - which is the exact opposite thing they should be doing!

[@1crlski]

The simple answer is just not play any GW games, I like KT 2018, sure some of the rules are wonky, but it was relatively (by GW standards) cheap and you could enjoy an almost RPG feel with your squad through narrative play, but KT 2021 just follows the same old GW menu, over priced books with only partial information and then an expensive faction box to get the real rules (and for now the only way) for the faction you want to play. I have every SOB codex except 9th, because the majority of the lore hasn't changed and honestly I'm afraid to see how they changed the lore for the current crop of "little sister space marines" with their walkers, "chaplains", how they ruined the repentia (models anyway) and now Novitiates.

[@jbriggsiv]

I was so excited to see this video. I've been waiting for you to cover this topic and I'm so glad you did. This was another great video and I'm in agreement with you. The books are effectively useless for game play any more due to FAQs and the annual chapter approved/general's handbook updates. They are fantastic for lore though. That's why I buy and read them. I just don't like reading prose in digital formats. I even print out and read books on paper when my only purchase option is a PDF (which I totally understand for small/self publishers). The lore is important to me. I started out as an RPG player 40 years ago and bring that sense of individual world-building to my game. I use the books as inspiration for creating my armies. For example, my main army for both 40k and AoS is Chaos, more specifically, Tzeentch daemons. I include all chaos factions in my 40k list, but if I'm taking allies in AoS, which I rarely do, I only use Slaanesh models because the lore specifically lays out their attitudes towards one another. My 40k list include Nurgle units, but I never play an undivided faction in AoS because my Lord of Change would be offended by the idea of working with Nurgle. I even paint my models to indicate the "blending" that happens. I don't often use mortal units, but the ones I use tend to blend elements of both Tzeentch and Slaanesh. My Tzeentch units have touches of purple and pink in their color schemes and my Slaanesh units have a little blue and gold in them. I do this because I tell myself that mortals are complex and have many motivations that drive their actions. I wouldn't be able to come up with these psuedo-canon driven concepts had I not poured over the various codices (or is that codexes?) and battletomes.

[@DiscourseMinis]

That's awesome! I'm a big TTRPG player myself, and do the exact same as you haha I love giving my armies custom backgrounds with their own fluff and lore! My Imperial Guard army was an independent world that happened to come across an STC containing plans for a lasgun and they weren't aware of the wider Imperium. Love coming up with those sorts of details. Your Daemons sound really cool! I love that vibe :D I also agree with you on the PDF stuff, I just like to read physical books, not a fan of PDFs for reading myself (I already read so many screens lol) so I would still be buying codices even if they only contained lore, but I just want really functional, easily referenced rules and that's where digital distribution really shines! Thank you for the comment :) (big fan of Slaanesh myself!)

[@chrismvogan]

War and Conquest was a historical game system that I picked up several years ago. One of the best features is that all of the factions that they support were released online in PDF format. All that you need to do is to buy the book and print out the army that you have and play away. They even had a fantasy section so that you could play their version of WFB as well.

[@DiscourseMinis]

that sounds like a dream!

[@itlivesin]

Yes! Another awesome intro! One day you will need to combine all your intros in one vid!

[@DiscourseMinis]

Haha yesss

[@tirandeshibaraki743]

Another upside of Privateer Press! The main rule book and all faction cards (rules are bound to models, not factions) are available for download on their website for FREE. :D

[@NickAmDad]

The sad part about all this is that I got into 40k because of awesome creators like you Discourse, but I genuinely don't want to play the game. I love the painting and assembly of models, but GW has made it to where I just can't play. It's gotten to the point where I just buy from ebay, and it's sad that I have a better experience with ebay than GW itself. I get my stuff within a few days and it's cheaper. I want to support this company but damn they make it impossible for me to do so. (Quick edit, I was meaning that I'm sad that I don't want to play the game. I'm not sad that I found your channel or learned about that game because of you, cause I'm beyond happy about that and love your content 🙂)

[@DiscourseMinis]

Haha thanks for the kind words! I will say that 40K is really cool, and the miniatures are awesome, but in terms of gameplay it's probably one of the weaker systems out there (especially with all the rules bloat etc.) It might be worthwhile checking out some alternative systems. OnePageRules & Warsurge are pretty popular if you want to use 40K miniatures, but there's a lot of other systems out there too!

[@NickAmDad]

@@DiscourseMinis I've heard a lot of good things about One-page and honestly I like the idea of being able to use stuff I already have. Another game I have been looking at is Frostgrave, they have a lot of amazing miniatures and a lot of customization in the boxes as well. Its usually 30 dollars for a box of 20 soldiers and the rule books and adventures seem really cost effective as well. Plus, they have vikings and any viking is a good viking in my book.

[@arielsanchez465]

@@NickAmDad I cancelled the crappy WH app membership and became a OPR patron.

[@shanepatrick4534]

@@NickAmDad It's tough man, I played 40k for 15 years and met my wife through it. I put up with a lot and spent a lot of money, but I just can't do it anymore. OPR is great, I also would recommend Battletech and or Gaslands as well. I would also suggest a 3d printer, I love mine.

[@JarLoz]

@@NickAmDad I've tried out the OnePageRules system, with Grimdark Future: Firefight, and I can confidently say it's excellent, especially for a more casual style of play. The flavor of the factions is intact, but the rules play much faster and smoother.

[@fishtripper]

8:52 I was wondering why drew carey was a faction but now that the pic is up i understand now, still kinda bummed there isn't space marines with buzz cuts and thick framed glasses.

[@DiscourseMinis]

i would be so down for that

[@inquisitornero]

Your intro reminded me of a 40k adaptation the scene in the Original Star Trek episode “A Piece of the Action” where Captain Kirk makes up rules for a convoluted card game on the spot to escape capture. You nailed it!

[@DiscourseMinis]

haha thank you!!

[@mytabletopstandard1972]

I remember when the codex was $25 AUD each, and I bought about 10 of them in total. After they went to $50 I didn't buy a single one and decided to sell all my warhammer, I just thought it was getting to ridiculous.

[@DiscourseMinis]

Yeah, the increase in prices haven't served anyone

[@whssy]

I remember when everything you needed to know about Warhammer rules came in an A4 cardboard box 5cm tall and you just home brewed the stuff that was missing.

[@SuperDominic4]

LOVE that intro...... How much caffeine did you need? 😂

[@DiscourseMinis]

Haha it was a lot of fun to come up with all the goofy names for everything xD Plenty of energy required to film yeah! Glad you liked it ^.^

[@miamijules2149]

Or adderol? Lolol

[@awijntje14]

Dammit I thought I was the only one that knew about the "tongue in cheek"-rule on page 423 of the addendum to the expansion of the supplement of the revised codex...

[@Remixersoloman]

Personally as a casual player who won't really ever feel the power creep too bad, I wouldn't mind codexes if they could make the releases a little timelier and keep each faction's rules in ONE book vs hiding some in narrative books, and I think it allows for more flavorful armies compared to lumping all the rules together and releasing at the same time like we saw with the indexes and now with the Kill Team Compendium, but the way they're stringing everything out to try and get players to buy two or three books per faction on top of the core rulebook is ridiculous and I would hope unsustainable.

[@DiscourseMinis]

Hey! I definitely agree. The amount of additional books and items to buy are really excessive and overwhelming, especially to a new player. I do think it particularly affects casual players who don't have the time, money or inclination to spend on the game.

[@michaelwitte2543]

Oh, that’s why I lost my last game, was a Friday and Saturn and Mars weren’t in the right Position to activate my jink… Thanks, you nailed it again. Love codex as a lore and inspiration source but shit for playing. And honestly I’m a casual gamer, sometimes I don’t play for months, specially in the summer I go out in the nature, enjoy time with my dog (or Covid makes me busy). So it’s hard just to go in a local gamestore and have some relaxing and funny games.. because my codex and army don’t work anymore. That’s shit. I think this is also why a get more attracted to Horus heresy and titanicus. It’s just simply slow growing, and even when there are changes they don’t brake your army, or I have to learn every time new rules for my standard army. Btw, nice to see your videos after weekend on call, makes the start of the week little more enjoyable 😉 and ps, have you been to the hairdresser? Looks good 👍

[@TheAlterspark]

Great video- GW's little money making scheme has actually backfired on me lol- I'm dumping all but my main three armies. I used to have 4.5 lol. And honestly I am seriously considering just going to 1 and playing Heresy or Konflict 47.

[@eisberg5249]

I allways thought of codexes as a donation to GW and they reward you with an fluff book with outdated rules. Because you can use the superior wahapedia rules totally for free.

[@Diarmuhnd]

*I am an aspiring Champion of Chaos and I have walked through time since 1971* . . . . . . and I will NEVER pay for something that could just be photocopied, GW can milk the 'new' fans.

[@animusvids]

now I remember why I quited playing 40k :3

[@DiscourseMinis]

It started off a lot more manageable before, but since then there's been a steady stream of codex creep unfortunately, and this has just escalated the original problem. There's no real excuse these days because there's better ways to do everything a codex can do... but better! :D

[@RetroMaticGamer]

This is why my go-to minis game is actually Warmachine - all of any given model's stats and rules fits on one double-sided playing card, so it's easy to hand your opponent everything they'll ever need to know about your army. Oh, and every time that unit gets updated, you can download and print the new card right off their website for free.

[@mrrselfdestruction1077]

Those are my exact thoughts on the codex. I got into 40k in 2019 and they started releasing the "psychic awakening" books so I had to have two books for 110 dollars just to play. Getting other people to buy a 90$ starter kit is hard enough but to throw 50$ on top of that just to know what your army can do is ridiculous. Also whenever I get the indominus set the data sheets you get for necrons don't tell you their abilities (well they do tell you the ability but not what it does) they just say stats.

[@glarvagaming9234]

I literally played a guy last week who said multiple times want to check my codex when I questioned a rule

[@deusex3124]

This pretty much sums up the problems with GW's whole business model. They're basically Apple but with miniatures, the obsolecence of product is built into the system and FOMO drives the desire for the new version of the product. It's why they don't really do stand alone boxed games much now, because it doesn't fit the model of selling ever more miniatures, books, and various other stuff. I do find it interesting how GW still seems to have this image of being a quaint plucky British company, like it's five guys working out of an office, and not the corporate behemoth it is. I love the world's that GW created, even if it is just a mish mash of previously existing ideas cranked up to 11 but GW's games are mainly just janky, overpriced and poorly designed, either through intent or just incompetence. Half their games don't even come in boxes big enough for the contents now when all the miniatures are assembled, like they're trolling their own customers. How tight or incompetent do you have to be to not at some point in the design process realise a box isn't going to be big enough to accomodate the pieces of the game the box is for, it's almost like they know people will be buying it for the miniatures, not the game, so they won't actually have to fit in the box *cough* Assassinorum: Execution Force *cough*.

[@knighthaunter]

its funny how a game thats actually (in my opinion a bit) overly simple can get so convoluted. i really dig a crunchy baseline rule set (my fav GW game is WFB 3rd) but, they obviously spread things out and often put new things in just for the sake a of validating a new campaign book or codex or some other random things you need to get to have a complete rulesets for the army you already bought the codex for. my solution to this has been, A. i really hardly play (due to time and me and my friends schedules) but B. when we did most of us played in a seriously casual way, but even we had a few power gamers in our midst, which for me is just tiring, in my opinion 40k and aos/WFB never had ANY business masquerading as a competitive game, they were never that tight.

[@scarecrow2097]

Agreed.Codexes should have been the lore/ collectors edition aspec of the different armies and data cards being a package of every rule you need for those who simply want to play the game without buying (over and over) expensive and space consuming books..... and dlc books. Btw hardcovers suck if the book is meant to be something you'll be referencing over and over.

[@DiscourseMinis]

Yeah, they look nice on the shelf, but really rough to constantly be flicking back and forth!! I like reading the codices, I just wish I could reference the data in them better. I never went into it, but GW sort of suck at book layouts which just exacerbates the matter

[@eldoriath1]

Intro is so spot on, exactly how I felt playing admech first time xD Also strongly agree that codexes should be an optional luxury product rather than mandatory. Sure, you can register the codex on their app but the app suck round shaped objects on a donkey shaped animal. Checking warlord traits for my Dark Angels it completely fails to note that two are locked to having the Deathwing or Ravenwing keyword and stuff like that. Stuff that you need to know if you want to build a legal list. Honestly, having Warhammer+ including access to all codexes and stuff like that and getting a free 3 months trial would probably make it more accessible. And an app that updates your rules, is user friendly, and where you can say "hey, ping me if these factions get any errata, rule change or anything" would be great. I don't mind that they release new rules and stuff as such, but it's pretty hard keeping track of what is legal and not. Like, I know that specialist regements are no longer a thing but I don't know why or where you can find that. But also that the rules for imperial guards are spread out all over the place, like psychic awakening, their codex as well as a white dwarf article. Why do I know this? I listen to KZbin content. But I have tried to Google stuff like that but come up with nothing. Same with base sizes, like what is the standard base for bikes? After much searching the real answer seem to be there is none, but GW recommends you use the base the model was supplied with. Which for me, having really old models, means rectangular bases that are like 25*50mm since it's the bases the models came with. Adding on this, I like to convert and kit bash instead of buying new stuff (because it's frickin expensive), so if I convert it to a new unit, say ravenwing black knights, it's a bit of a conundrum. The model comes with an old base that has quite a bit of advantages when it comes to stuff like mobility and fitting more into melee. But there aren't really any rules that say what I do is wrong since I'm using the bases the models were supplied with.

[@bubger]

The best part is they've stopped selling PDFs for 9th edition codexes, and theyve gone back to all physical. Sure, there's an app, but if you only wanna use the app, you still have to buy the physical book to get an access code.

[@DiscourseMinis]

Yeah I actually noticed that myself when I was grabbing footage!! That's nuts to me, but they're trying to pull players into the closed system - presumably to better monetize them down the line... Yikes!

[@Drakwald1]

Since the first day I picked up a copy of 2 Realms of Chaos Hardcover supplements in a NYC Comic shop in the 80'sand fell in love with the Art and the world but also noticed i really couldn't play with just this book I knew my money and I would be lost forever. Now i am 50 and I am dressing my 7 year old up in sisters of battle cosplay for NYC comicon this year. I don't play table top anymore but I still read the books and now listen to all of you guys/gals on the internet thingie... so as a consumer and fan I have choices ...great video my first for you and I found it poignant so you get my subscription... I still do miss the old Warhammer fantasy world where I started though.... oh well at least I have the video games....Shadow of the Horned Rat anyone?

[@julienamand4472]

I played to the (very underrated, imo) Lord of the Rings strategy battle game back in my teen years and one thing I loved is that every rules, characters, were in the same game (except for codex that were dedicated to campaigns rather than factions). When I fought with my brother's T'au army,one thing I hated was the opponent pulling a secret rule from deep down a God-forsaken paragraph of his codex that screwed all my strategy. And this was in 2004-2006 ! Seing what GW has become now, with more and more complicated rules for AoS and 40k, and LotR being more and more forgotten. Well, that drew me to One Page Rules :D (Another thing I hated was the turn alternance where you would just roll over your opponent and then wait for them to do the same, LotR's system where you roll off the initiative every turn, then one moves, then the other, then one shots then the other, and finally mêlée is resolved was far more to my liking.)

[@TheCollectorSteve]

Got the ultramarine supplement a while ago, £17.50 of “required” info I haven’t used in a game yet!

[@forseti52]

Not to mention that older codexs will have pages and pages of FAQs, points updates, ect up untill a new codex release. So you can end up with 4 to 6 books for one faction.

[@DiscourseMinis]

Yeah, the addition of FAQs and tournament books can really overwhelming. I didn't have enough space to dedicate to it in the video, but I definitely agree.

[@johnw5154]

GW charge what the market will sustain. Not what they are worth. GW purposefully use power creep to ensure the game is pay to play. It's how they sucker you into paying more.

[@mrmaster9801]

You are basically suggesting the Infinity the Game's way. They sell a slipcase with Core Book (lore and background) and Rule Book (rules for all the armies), without any army list book required. Now, in the past those units profiles were to be found mainly in the books, but Corvus Belli now relies very much on their app (Infinity Army), which is free and constantly updated. So, apart from the combo Core+Rule book, you really don't require any book. The books that come out from time to time are background books, which additionally provide you with ideas for new missions, that's all. Needless to say, I strongly prefer Corvus Belli's way of managing manuals.

[@Mikey__R]

A hardcover book with an 18 month lifespan? Why?!

[@jamesdeane2490]

This is why I've only played 2 games of 40k and it always annoyed me in fantasy. I could learn my book and maybe a few things from the others but damn.

[@Nick_Whiskey]

I kinda wish people would just take their heads out of their asses for just one day and play something else. Kings of War armies are all updated at the same time. Osprey Games makes great skirmish games for all sorts of settings. OPR has simplified 40k rules on a single sheet of rules. I love Warhammer lore as much as the next nerd, but fuck me do most GW games suck to play.

[@DiscourseMinis]

There are a lot of BIG problems with Warhammer. It's the ubiquity of the system though, it's hard to get engrossed with anything else when everyone around is playing it. Luckily there are other systems that are getting more discoverable, and I personally hope to spotlight some awesome systems on the channel :)

[@mtozzi92]

@@DiscourseMinis Yes! I feel like the biggest reason people play GW games is because people mostly only play GW games. I think they've really been relying on this, and if it gets to that tipping point where that's not the case anymore they could be in trouble. The atomic mass games in particular seem pretty well poised to take advantage of GW being classic GW.

[@inquisitoradrianicus]

Space Marines are the most expensive faction to run. Every edition of 40k has always had a new SM codex while some other factions didn't get one. 8th had two SM codex plus the introduction of the supplemental codex.

[@DiscourseMinis]

Oh yeah, and they get super bloated as well with so many options!!

[@14852577]

The reason for the 2nd Marine book in 8th was because the first one got sent straight to the bottom of the power tier. As in Marines and Grey Knights were so bad at even casual levels because they were the first books of the edition and the rules teams kept trying to band aid it to zero success. Because of that, they threw in the towel and made a second Codex. It was good, it was the Supplements that went entirely too far.

[@JasonM69]

I love the feel of a hard cover, but I do wish the new codexes had as good of content as the old ones.

[@Sifuben]

What would be better is a two page.pdf with all the lists, stats and special rules? A bit like the army supplements from One Page Rules? This is why I've gone over to Grimdark Future and Age of Fantasy, because they allow me to play with my 10 year old without getting bogged down in the rules.

[@Jkos1980]

Corvus Belli gives you the rules for free, they have an army builder that updates every faction at the same time, when the new edition dropped, some factions hade to wait 4 months, but it it was old factions that they had discontinued the models for

[@DiscourseMinis]

Yeah! I've been playing a little bit of Infintity relatively recently - picked up the Crimson Stone box :D

[@vincentvt6229]

Kings of War goes another Route, they have the base Forces in the core Rulebook and a second Set of Armies in the Uncharted Empires Supplement. It's all you need to play, there are yearly supplements which consist of one book for 25€

[@Itchyknee88]

When I first got into the hobby and started watching battle reports, the opening monologue was exactly how everything sounded to me 😂

[@DiscourseMinis]

Hahaha!

[@seidon_]

This showed up in my recommended. I've been a 40k fan for ages, I have tons of novels, video games, art etc. But I've never touched the tabletop game for this reason. All the rules, codexes, data cards etc. I just don't understand it all and feel like I can't keep up so i dont bother lol

[@DiscourseMinis]

it can be tough haha

[@wong40k42]

You are wise

[@liberalhyena9760]

0:59 How did you know I would be watching on a Thursday ten months after the upload? Those codices freak me out!

[@PraetorGix]

Dude, those intro sketches are getting better and better XD

[@DiscourseMinis]

I'm so glad you think so! :D

[@gabrielmarquez4029]

Great video Discourse! I know I keep bringing them up but the model you suggested is exactly what one page rules does. Everything is freely available, with across the board updates happening with core rule version changes and small balancing updates made at the army level in between. It’s a refreshing change that really tempts you to try new projects out.

[@DiscourseMinis]

Yeah they are definitely on the right path!!

[@deeamerson]

And onepagerules sells 3d print files and paper cutout art for miniatures you can use.

[@gabrielmarquez4029]

@@deeamerson exactly. They work to reduce the barrier to entry.

[@mobilegamersunite]

Page 436! 😂 Great vid! I started playing custodes....so I could do SOMETHING with any SM models....I'm only like 3 books short of actually having all the rules to run them now. I fully agree with everything in this vid!

[@DiscourseMinis]

Haha thanks! Yeah... Haha it can be tough!!

[@mobilegamersunite]

Over here dropping SC on starts I can't even name 📛 "I drop minus 1 to str!" 😂

[@timothylyons5686]

My friends and I do have Primaris marines but we use them using the black third edition codex's and rules. Just two wound marines with larger range guns. No stratagems, no power creep just fun games. Works for us.

[@liqerise]

I'm 500 pts deep into my first sisters army and refuse to buy a codex or rulebook until I know 100% sure I will play it. Untill then it's all for the love of painting, and learning the rules online. And one page rules is still hard on my radar just in case.

[@DiscourseMinis]

Total respect for that Laurn, the rules bloat really gets out of hand very fast with each new edition :( OnePageRules is interested as a game, and it costs nothing to try!

[@TheSmokingCheddar]

exactly why i didnt upgrade from 8th to 9th. its just thr same information (more or less) reworded, then i need space marines codex, then the dark angels codex, then the faq supliments, then the mission supliments and on and on and on. fool me the first 6 times, shame on me..... started at 3rd but i have second edition stuff in my collrction of codexes

[@inf3243]

Yup. Spot on. Also let's not ignore the fact that GW tend to treat their rules as Early Access, too. That new shiny codex is obsolete almost as soon as its printed, meaning you'll have to refer to FAQs to get the REAL points costs and rules. It's ridiculous, and why I just flat-out don't buy them anymore. I'm all for a company responding to the meta or tweaking the rules as they go, but you basically can't trust anything written in a codex anymore...so what's its purpose? I'd probably buy codexes if they were more like a fluff omnibus and campaign book. Keep all the rules separate where they can be updated and tweaked, and just release like : Sons of Baal - a codex packed full of lore about Blood Angel chapter organization, their successors, new characters, and a campaign of 10 thematic missions with special rules. Comes with a decal sheet. Something to inform the hobby side, and add some guidance to the games you'll actually play with them.

[@justarandomname420]

I've ridden my horse to town on occasion. Noone minds as long as I don't bring him into the store. I love where I live.

[@DiscourseMinis]

incredible!

[@michaelschumacher5551]

I often wanted to get minis of another army but didn't buy them because of the need to buy an extra codex or two for every edition. I have collected 40k since 2nd edition and dont like this 40k tax. I started x wing as fantasy flight games included rules with the miniatures but stopped again as they introduced a second edition with 50 euro all cardboard "conversion" sets per faction.

[@TheSmart-CasualGamer]

This is why I don't like Stratagems. I've never liked them, they add an extra layer of unessecary complication. Also, USRs being gone makes stuff harder. Now instead of stuff like Feel No Pain, we have VERY minor variations with different names for different factions, which is fine, but not for a game at 40k's scale.

[@masterblasterT47]

The entire concept of codex books is woefully antiquated. Compare and contrast the path corvus beli has taken with their Infinity game system. They have taken the notion of rulebooks being optional to the next level and made all the rules available for free in a online wiki style database. All statistics for every miniature of every faction including the recently released simplified version of the game is available in a free app. And still the option of buying physical books is there for players who want to give some extra currency to the game developers.

[@DiscourseMinis]

Yes, this is a great example of embracing ways to issue out rules!

[@jonstarritt848]

You're a day late, the autumn equinox was yesterday, Sep. 22. According to section 18, paragraph 3, article 6, in the Weather and Seasons supplement, (...I don't know enough about 40K to finish this joke, lol.) Also at 8:50 it sounds like you say the "Drew Carey Codex" i had to pause and go back to make sure I heard it right.

[@noocnik]

Give that girl a golden throne! Right on the spot. Couldn't agree more with every word said here. My response for great balanced rules for grimdark future tabletop game is... One page rules. I've played it a lot lately both regular / skirmish versions and have a blast every time.

[@TheAverlorn]

Through and through right on the money, I mean codices

[@Dwarficus]

It strikes me as odd that GW will happily charge for the codex, but do they reprint the codex when the FAQ nukes the army? Oh hell no, it's not like it splits the hobbiests (those that only follow the rules as printed vs those with printers that print out the updates). When I do get a game in, I have to ask exactly the version of FAQ they are using and which points rebalance they are following, this should not be the way rules for a game, with as much financial backing as GW, should be ran. Also, on a side note, wouldn't it be nice for GW to actually answer questions? I've only want to know what happens to a narrative Order of Battle when GW changes the codex. I asked at the Codex: Space Marine launch, and again at the Codex: Blood Angels launch, and each time a FAQ was released for my Blood Angels, with zero answers. From what my friends have been saying this is typical behavour from GW.

[@DiscourseMinis]

Support me on Patreon: www.patreon.com/discourseminiatures Link to my Discord: discord.gg/gkfxppuXrN Noble Knight Games (US-based Affiliate link):www.nobleknight.com/affiliate/aw.asp?B=3&A=1160&Task=Click Element Games (UK-based Affiliate link): elementgames.co.uk/?d=10711 Alternatively, you can give a one-time tip via Ko-fi: ko-fi.com/discourse

[@Josh24861]

Your great

[@DiscourseMinis]

@@Josh24861 Thank yooooou

[@Dylanquinn666]

I remember when you could buy a codex for less than £10 and it was a nice simple softcover. They probably try to justify the price by making them hardback, but regardless of anything else I honestly prefer the old thin softcover books. They were easier to manage. The idea of having a stack of heavy hardback books that I'll hardly ever use is just as off-putting as the price in my opinion.

[@DiscourseMinis]

Yeah 100% the hardcovers (and full colour print) were used to justify a major price increase, but the increase was a huge amount and not reflected in the increase in quality. Honestly, I preferred the softcover for playing at the table too!

[@rangda_prime]

Another perspective from a hoary old git who cut his teeth on playing PanzerBlitz back in the day: The Codex system used to be good but it is as you say, it's been converted into a cyclically renewed mandatory purchase. When it came into being in the late 90s, it was a breath of fresh air in a hobby dominated by historical rule sets that had no internal art, no layout and certifiably byzantine writing. Many modern historical rules now use the "Army Book" model to supplant their main rules and these books can be a delight to read and look through. They are not continually updated though, even if many of the more successful sets do occasionally get second editions. It really is befuddling, since the sensible Codex model coupled with well written and beautifully illustrated main rules have really become the gold standard the rest of the industry uses, but that GW who invented this has moved away from it into the modern practice which removes utility from the player base. Other companies have managed to claw their way onto the market mainly by trying to match GW production values when it comes to rules presentation and distribution and the hobby as a whole has gained from this. Like you point out in other videos, GW seems to be heading away from being a model/games company if their strategies are an indication of intent. Even the high entry cost to even start is something older games from other companies didn't do right. I remember wanting to get into historical miniature gaming in the 80s, and... You had the Napoleonics where each unit was about 32 minis each (all to be painted with frills and badges and cuffs and embroideries in THE PROPER regimental colours, lol) and you needed at least a dozen or so of these to play. This way waaay before affordable plastics were on the market, mind you. Ancients and Medieval were just as bad, there was a set called TACTICA that had a very nice book for its time, but the unit sizes again were extreme. 48 minis to make ONE Hoplite phalanx, and I need 8 of these just to have the core of my force? In comparison, the Warhammer model that was launched in the late 90s where you had to have two squads/units and a leader to have a "rules legal" army were simply far superior to recruit new players. There was one historical set in the 90s that swept the scene with having an explicitly low miniatures count to play - the De Bellis Antiquitatis (DBA) rules. But it took at least 10-15 years for the rest of the historical publisher scene to catch on. Oh well, the world turns, does it not? At least GW have shown smaller companies a good way to launch new, robust systems. We all stand on the shoulders of giants, I guess. And no king rules forever.

[@DiscourseMinis]

Wow thank you for the comment. That was super interesting! I totally agree with your perspective. Games Workshop definitely made a lot of great moves back in the 90s. Accessibility is always king in these hobby mediums, imo, and GW used to reflect that. They've gone the complete opposite direction now, and there are other companies needed to carry the torch.

[@NQuick-bn7ts]

You should do a video on the future of GW surviving the possibility of an economic down turn and it's ability to stay economicly viable with their current modis operandi.

[@shanepatrick4534]

@1:13 The look on the face of you as a "Sister" was perfect.

[@DiscourseMinis]

hahaha glad you liked >:D

[@Kyujin666]

Pure maestro, your verbal and hand coordination is pure symphony 💖

[@DiscourseMinis]

Haha thank you so much!

[@johnrooke9782]

Drukhari have hardly had any new models made the occasional characters (2) and incubi since fine cast so i do not think they are well supported- only faction rules modified on top of that they never have any stock apart from starter boxes in shops. Which never seems upto date and you need to pay for each suppliment.

[@DiscourseMinis]

Yeah... I know this struggle very well haha. I think one of the things Dark Eldar have going for them is that their sculpts are really good so that's carried them pretty far

[@johnrooke9782]

@@DiscourseMinis just look at grotesques and beast master squads i think they were made 1990's

[@shaunhall6834]

They could have easily just focused on introducing cool models for each faction every month. That alone would bring in revenue each month and give the players what they want.

[@D00M3R-SK8]

3:05 that cracked helmet is bloody amazing. I must do that for my black templars.

[@davidmichael9820]

That intro sounds like the players at Battlegrounds to boardgames 40k group

[@munkiemedia3323]

Codexes worked up until end of 7th. They then started 8th, stated it’ll involve less books but by end of a full year You needed 4 books just for 1 army. Then new book was added every year. Gave up and don’t plan to even look into until they bother to sort this out. 6th-7th edition I only ever needed 2 books per army, rules and codex for the army, done. They need to look into how other games are being done with their stats distribution. Star wars legion works great as every kit comes with the stats needed on a card in the kit. They need to release the reference cards in the units and give full rules for free. You’ll find more people will stay in game and buy new models as there’s more money to spend on them than needing to buy rulebook and codex every edition (SWL still hasn’t gone to 2nd edition and still working well in its 4 years). Unless you’re tournament player, just stop buying until the game is fixed. They’ll get the hint and alter.

[@DiscourseMinis]

Yup, agreed! Unit cards in the model box works so well, it's just GW don't want to spend more money

[@munkiemedia3323]

@@DiscourseMinis it’s not spending more it’s they’ll initially will lose money.

[@kimarisbass7856]

That’s why I kinda almost avoid the tabletop. I really want figures and an Army but maybe 5 dudes but these rules are insane

[@DiscourseMinis]

Yeah, it's hard to justify!

[@absolutfreak5012]

I liked your point about it being a gamble if you'd want to try out a different faction. The way the codexes now have the app code on the back, they're sealed in the shelf, so you can't even flip through in a store to get a quick impression at least.

[@DiscourseMinis]

Yeah, it's a real bummer :( I remember getting a little bit of an idea of a faction from the books on the shelf (when the GW employee would let me lol), but that's just impossible now if you don't already know someone who has the codex

[@michal000123]

All the things you touched up when talking about codex being optional purchase... Infinity does exactly that.

[@rustedbeetle]

First and foremost, thank you for codices and not codexes. As James Nicoll wrote, "We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and riffle their pockets for new vocabulary." I don't play GW games, but I love this channel. It is interesting to see people delve into why structures are in place for games. Codices are not to make a game better. They are to sell more games, period. The power creep is not a byproduct, but part of the design, as you point out. I hear people complain about power creep, and how their armies don't have new codices so they can't win, etc. Of course the solution is to play a different game, one that is not designed to make a faction of the financial quarter the strongest (with the newest and pricier models, which is totally not a coincidence, trust us). GW doesn't set out to make a great game. Their business is designed to make people buy more, which is fine. That's how businesses work. But they do so at the manipulation of the player base, and that is where my issue lies.

[@scepteredisle]

GW used to print the stats on the back of the box :(

[@garathminis5108]

Basically, the codex system makes it so that if you buy an army, you are playing an unfinished game. I was a tourney winning player back in the day. You only need 2 things to stay competitive , mathhammering the odds and drawing tactical conclusions from that ...and lots of money to keep shuffling armies from update to update. Almost as bad as magic. At least you get the models unlike magic players who get... cards.

[@TheEbonstar]

You breach the topics so well. I do think there is so much to add to this conversation, especially the later portion where you point out that GW as the main gateway for miniature gaming can be prohibitive and damaging to the new player experience. I believe this is 100% intentional. GW doesn't want to be the first experience, they want to be the ONLY experience, and yes even if that means poisoning the entire well. So much to discuss around what they "should" do, as your arguments make perfect sense, but I can postulate why GW thinks you are totally wrong in trying to lower these barriers. I would look at the history of a game called Guild Ball to understand why doing things great for their customers ultimately led to them killing their own game. Great discussion as always!

[@bertilandersson6606]

As a board gamer i dont find joy in playing warhammer "war" games, but I am wondering what is stopping players to adjust and give the 3 latest codexes 15, 10, 5, respectivly percent increase in point cost in order to adjust the power kreep.

[@DiscourseMinis]

I suppose a lot of players feel that the balance is a bit more nuanced, and that capturing the problems between codices might take more than some points increase. I do take your point, and agree that the community should be more proactive in designing community guidelines. The thing is, Games Workshop do keep the game updated (quite relentlessly in fact) but the releases are staggered, so the balance is constantly shifting.

[@funghazi]

I've never read the rules part of a codex, my eyes just glaze over and I go back to looking at the pretty pictures.

[@DiscourseMinis]

they can be, uh, very dense haha

[@canguastowargaming9275]

Hi! Infinity enthusiast here. I'm here to support the idea of free codexes with printed version for sale. Here in the land of Infinity The Game we have free downloadable rulebooks, a free wiki to read up rules as we play and a free army builder that doubles as a distribution system for new profiles whenever they are released. And here's the kicker: you can buy the rulebook! It comes in two volumes: rules and lore, soft cover with a hard cardboard sleeve to store them in your bookshelf. Did I bought it? Of course! Do I use it? Just for the lore part. Do I rather enjoy the plethora of IT services that CB put in place for us? You bet! Playing Infinity really makes you feel like you are in the future!