Discovering the COIN series with Rodney Smith (Watch it Played)

[@RiccardoMasiniWLOG]

Too bad I could not see the live, but even recorded this stands as one of the most interesting video chats about board games and wargames that you can find on KZbin. I am still in the process of watching it fully, but as for rules writing I would point out Atlantic Chase as a possible new paradigm for the hobby. Yes, it requires more pages than your average rule book, but half of them are direct examples, explanations and crossed visual references. A great incremental learning approach, that could be a precious example for many other systems.

[@HomoLudens1871]

Yes, I just mentioned Atlantic Chase in response to another comment. I think that people also forget that Academy Games did a great job with Conflict of Heroes with a gradual rule book. Not as radical as Atlantic Chase, but very well done.

[@HethwillWargames]

​ @Homo Ludens The Last Hundred Yards does it seamlessly, and Vol.1 came out quite a while ago. Does it in pairs, one to introduce new mechanisms and a second one with added complexity using the mechanisms one just learned. AC is very well laid out. Both LHY and AC methods combined would be excellent.

[@elqord.1118]

I had to put it down because it was all too much. I’m newer to war games but it was the most unintuitive experience in all of my board gaming life. Even though it explained it with so many words, it simply didn’t work for me. Paradigm shift or not…it passes me by

[@lmad9153]

Rodney is always such a class act, thanks for getting him on your show.

[@HomoLudens1871]

Probably the kindest content creator I have ever met in the hobby. It was a pleasure to have him on.

[@trenthogan4212]

Rodney Smith is awesome! For someone who doesn't know COIN = COunterINsurgency COIN (short for COunterINsurgency) is a series of multiplayer asymmetric strategy board wargames simulating historic insurgency and counter-insurgency conflicts and irregular warfares throughout the world.

[@HomoLudens1871]

Thanks for clarifying.

[@ludwigvan2932]

That Volko surprise had me smiling from ear to ear. Great video

[@WatchItPlayed]

That was a lovely surprise by both of them :)

[@HomoLudens1871]

😰

[@ThymeKeeper]

This is already one of my favorite KZbin gaming videos ever. Great conversation. May all content creators and industry figures model your gentility and insight :).

[@HomoLudens1871]

Thanks Marc! Really appreciate it.

[@cardboardconflicts]

Fred is a talented dude. Designs great games and brings us great YT content!

[@HomoLudens1871]

@@cardboardconflicts 🥰

[@brianryder5472]

This video was fantastic. Listening to Rodney and his journey back into wargaming feels a bit like my current first foray in. As much as I love this hobby, war games and 18xx has reignited that sense of discovery again.

[@HomoLudens1871]

I just started playing 18XX and I know exactly what you feel. it is very exciting to get into one of those rich and fascinating rabbit holes. Anyway, happy you enjoyed the video!

[@phillippaul614]

I haven’t yet played any COIN games but I found this interview a fascinating insight into what the system has to offer. Thank you!

[@HomoLudens1871]

Thanks Philip! And if you are curious about the system, there is quite a lot about it on the channel.

[@ThePlayersAid]

Love COIN games, and love this vid! When is pay-per-view Volko vs Fred vs Rodney All Bridges Burning????

[@HomoLudens1871]

That could be awesome! I think that People Power could be a perfect fit as we could potentially have the teach and play in 2 hours. I'll see if we can make it happen 🤞🤞🤞

[@WatchItPlayed]

Ah, you want to see me destroyed live... I'm onto you!

[@chrisc1625]

You guys turned me onto them! I thank you. My bank account does not! :-)

[@thelastmotel]

@@WatchItPlayed They'll beat you so badly, you'll have to change your last name to King :P

[@Gauravonomics]

This was the best board game video I have ever watched. Thank you to all three of you for putting it together.

[@HomoLudens1871]

Wow, thanks! Really appreciate the feedback and glad you appreciated the work.

[@bushibayushi]

A wonderful conversation!

[@HomoLudens1871]

Thanks!

[@qayed]

I've been playing board games for 10+ years. Mostly heavy euros and area control like Blood rage and Kemet. I've never heard of this genre, War games until Rodney tweeted about the COIN series of games. I've since tried them and totally shifted towards war games. Myself and the group are in shock of what we were missing the last few years. We started with A Distant Plain because we are from Dubai and are so close to the conflict when it happened in Afghanistan few years ago and lived it. So thematically it made sense. And TBH we learned the game from the playbook which took few hours, But it wasn't as hard as we expected. We've ordered few more COIN games since then. We can't thank you enough for this video which opened our eyes into this amazing world. Some of the games we are playing atm other than the COIN series are Caesar Rome vs Ghul, This war without an Enemy, Labyrinth etc. Amazing amazing games.

[@HomoLudens1871]

Wow, that’s such a cool story. I think that wargaming has so much to offer to board gamers, but that part of the hobby is often overlooked. Super excited to hear about a wargame group in Dubai. Actually I lived in UAE for some time, maybe one day I’ll have the opportunity to go back. Happy that you enjoyed the video and I hope that you’ll enjoy the rest of the content on the channel, there are a few COIN related videos.

[@jeffwesevich1239]

Thank you gentlemen -- for a solid hour there, wargaming rose above the tropes...

[@HomoLudens1871]

Thanks Jeffrey, happy you enjoyed it!

[@nohandle54]

These videos are so good, Fred. In your own way, you are doing for wargaming what Rodney has done for other boardgames.

[@HomoLudens1871]

Thanks David, I'm nowhere near being as useful as Rodney's content, but I'm planning on having more teach and play and content to explain and popularize Wargame concepts and lingo.

[@w92viking64]

I could listen to Volko all day he needs his own channel

[@HomoLudens1871]

I agree, he definitely does. Alternatively, happy to let him do content for the channel 🤣

[@WatchItPlayed]

@@HomoLudens1871 lol, win-win!

[@kesleycook2358]

Volko is right! I bridged the gap to wargamming after playing Labyrinth and Twilight Struggle. I have to say my attraction to Labyrinth was those cool wooden pieces I saw in pictures. Now my buddy and I mostly play GMT games like TS, Labyrinth, and Cuba Libre and we plan to discover many more.

[@HomoLudens1871]

Volko is often right... but don't tell him.

[@RousettusAegyptiacus]

What an excellent conversation, thank you!

[@HomoLudens1871]

Glad you enjoyed it! They are fantastic guests.

[@ianlight5158]

Incredible! Thanks for setting this up Fred!

[@HomoLudens1871]

Thanks Ian, happy you enjoyed the show!

[@MrOzGunner]

As someone who is just now getting into the COIN series and being a HUGE fan of Rodney Smith I was compelled to watch this discussion from being to end. I love teaching games and find myself usually slipping into this role. Doing this, I have wrestled with the best way to teach these type of games. I think the key is tapping into the theme and letting people influence the events and stories. Thank you for this video. I am excited to learn and play more. I am so excited for the sci-fi COIN title coming next year by Jay from Three Minute Board Games.

[@HomoLudens1871]

Hey, thanks for this comment, really happy that you found so much value in this video. I also really enjoyed that whole discussion about thinking about how to approach learning and teaching those games.

[@MatJtube]

Thank you for the talk gentlemen!

[@HomoLudens1871]

You're very welcome Mat.

[@ThymeKeeper]

I've not gone back and watched it again, but the original Cuba Libre live stream was an astounding experience. SO much fun to watch the first time, but yes, six hours. Phew :).

[@HomoLudens1871]

Yes that was insane.

[@felipealvarez1982]

Fantastic and surprising interviews! Thanks Fred. Merci

[@HomoLudens1871]

Thanks Felipe, we had a lot of fun recording it.

[@draft13]

Liberty or Death is one of the most beautiful board games ever made. It really stands out on the table.

[@HomoLudens1871]

I agree, the work by Terry Leeds is INSANE.

[@pintarfacil8064]

Trying to get my hands on that one for ages :-(

[@TonyStrongman]

Well, that was awesome!

[@HomoLudens1871]

It was, right?

[@HeavyH2006]

I had to comment. A truly great discourse. Immensely fascinating and engaging to hear perspectives and diverse knowledge. I’m going to be rerunning this again. Thank you indeed.

[@HomoLudens1871]

Thanks Howard for the kind words, happy that you enjoyed the content.

[@JoshOBryan]

It took me a bit to get into GMT rules, but the good thing is that once you're used to the style it's refreshing and easy to get through. I read first to get an overall feel for what's going on, then I setup the game and start playing and go through each section as it happens. This is the way that I've found easiest to grok large manuals. The brain does a great job of memorizing when it has to go through it using all the senses, aka actually playing the game.

[@HomoLudens1871]

I have a very similar process to learning GMT games. I also find some benefit in this dry approach to rules writing, but i still think that this only works for highly motivated people with experience. to reach a wider audience, I think that lighter GMT games could benefit from also proposing an alternative manual, closer to classic boardgame rule books.

[@P_E_P_1966]

Great stream

[@HomoLudens1871]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@stalker777777777]

I would love to see a COIN series in the future, Vlad's Imperium :D Also a twilight struggle in the COIN system would be awesome, to make a cold war coin game, maybe in the multipack ?

[@HomoLudens1871]

In a way you could say that the Guerilla Generation is a COIN Cold War multipack.

[@kevinessington8220]

Loved this. As an old Avalon Hill guy, I laugh at people thinking GMT rules are tough. I love them! They are well illustrated, use clear language, and are not overly long, and the supplementals are immensely useful. In the end, you have to play the game to really understand how rules function and impact the game but I have never had a brilliant move killed because of a minute detail my opponent dug out of a rule book (true in the olden days). Thanks for the video, makes me want to break out Fire in the Lake again!

[@HomoLudens1871]

Glad you enjoyed it! I agree that once you get used to it the GMT format is actually quite excellent, but it is true that it is not the most friendly to new comers. Maybe there is an opportunity for different approaches to learning in the same box?

[@readilium3432]

Rodney Smith is a class act.

[@HomoLudens1871]

He is indeed!

[@eskii2]

Lots of love in the air in this one.

[@HomoLudens1871]

HAHA, yes, massive amounts of love.

[@wmarclocher]

44:10 I just finished watching "The Cuba Libre Story" as well just because I wanted to know the history in the game.

[@HomoLudens1871]

Still need to watch it!

[@wmarclocher]

​@@HomoLudens1871 I really liked it; however be prepared to do a lot of reading as about half of it is reading subtitles (Spanish, French and German speakers) Had to rewind and pause a lot but really helped flesh out the history behind the game.

[@evildrganymede]

I do love the COIN game concept (even if some specific topics have been misses for me) and I have many of them, but talking about the seriousness of the games - that really hit me one time when I played a Terror attack in Havana in Cuba Libre and then realised what that actually represented. It doesn't stop me from playing them but I think it really gets players to appreciate exactly what they're doing in these games. I hesitate to call games like these "fun" because that kinda implies that they're frivolous, but they're definitely interesting experience and I want to play more!

[@HomoLudens1871]

That is a very interesting point. Actually later after that stream my wife asked me if a wargame, especially a COIN game should be "fun", from an ethical standpoint. I think that question alone could spark a super interesting conversation.

[@evildrganymede]

@@HomoLudens1871 yeah. I think it's a fine line. A lot of wargamers seem to be dismissive about thinking about the implications of a game, and just say "it's just a game". I feel they're wildly missing the point of wargaming though, which to me is about learning about and appreciating the history at least as much as reenacting it and exploring alternatives (if not moreso).

[@HomoLudens1871]

@@evildrganymede I agree. I have a video that talks a bit about that, in French unfortunately :( i should probably plan for a round-table kind of thing on this topic.

[@bullno1]

I'm Vietnamese and playing pivotal linebacker II is fun. Cmon.

[@HomoLudens1871]

@@leooshea8089 I think you might be interested in the 2nd part of my interview with Jack Radey: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqbLmXpuoq2VaMU

[@PMMagro]

I am 50 myself and did get to play Empires in Arms way back. It is a nice game when you had no family, no full time work (or big need for sleep), houskeeping etc you might get to play the full campaign. Internet did replace this kind of game, playing and saving is kind off a must... Highly reccomend it though if you can leave stuff out for aweek or can play and save online :) Thanks for the nice video!

[@HomoLudens1871]

Haha yes, the dream really is to have a spare table to let a game sit on for a week.

[@mayneric]

The playbook?!?!?! I’ve been wanting to try a COIN game for over a year and every time I looked at the rule book I thought “never mind “. But the playbook changes everything. Thank you.

[@HomoLudens1871]

In those games playbooks are both essential to learn the game but also to help appreciate the history depicted by the game. Enjoy and let us know what COIN game you picked!

[@mayneric]

@@HomoLudens1871 I’m ordering Cube Libre. I like the theme and it sounds like the simplest one. And it’s passed the P500 and is at the printer.

[@KabukiKid]

Oh! I so wish I was around to watch this one live! :-D So fantastic to see Rodney here! :-)

[@HomoLudens1871]

It was! And yes the time was a bit special, but it was the only moment where I could have both Rodney and Volko.

[@MrWayne2001bc]

What a great interview. Insightful discussion by all involved. Makes me want to bust out a COIN game.

[@WatchItPlayed]

I support this idea!

[@HomoLudens1871]

DO IT!

[@pitac8340]

fantastic interview!

[@HomoLudens1871]

Thanks!

[@robmarcjon]

Great Video Fred

[@HomoLudens1871]

Thanks Mark!

[@JoshOBryan]

Wow! your channel is great. Thanks Fred. Looking forward to picking up your new game, it looks amazing.

[@HomoLudens1871]

Thanks Josh, happy to see that you enjoy the content. I have a few games: one is already available for free in PnP, one is coming later this year, and the latest will take a while as we just started discussing final art.

[@kennethatherton568]

The color scheme for FitL pieces is perfect: at a glance, I can immediately get a read on the board’s situation.

[@alansalazar9543]

Fred’s videos and interviews are outstanding. He and his guests elevate the hobby - always thoughtful, engaging and fun.

[@HomoLudens1871]

Thanks Alan, sorry you couldn;t be here for this one, happy you could catch it later. Soon we'll go back to regular streaming!

[@litphaniusmcmelloy4275]

What a great crossover episode haha! This community makes me wanna invest even more time and money into COIN series, not gonna lie

[@HomoLudens1871]

Haha, I'm very happy to read that it got you excited about the COIN series. I would really recommend joining the Discord server, the COIN community is great and very keen on teaching people the games. discord.com/invite/fUeHg8CenT

[@cardboardconflicts]

Thanks for doing this Fred. I haven’t played a full COIN yet, playing Gest has been a blast, I’m looking forward to getting into COIN for many of the reasons discussed here of that experiential learning through the abstract!

[@HomoLudens1871]

What, Gest is not a "full COIN" 💔 ? No but seriously, keep me posted on your COIN journey, curious to see how it goes and what games you end up playing.

[@garybraddick5042]

Many years ago I read a book entitled “Freedom at Midnight “ about how India gained its’ Independence by non violent means. Since reading that book I’ve been fascinated with that historical situation. So when the COIN game “Gandhi” was announced I had to get it, and it was everything I’d hoped for, beautiful and intriguing full of uncertainty and possibilities. If you feel daunted by the rules, imagine how those who lived through those events must have felt.

[@HomoLudens1871]

You actually make me want to try out Gandhi now, it's one of the few COIN I haven't played.

[@AlexNguyen]

Lovely interview

[@HomoLudens1871]

Thanks Alex!

[@BxN88]

I could have listen stuff like this for ages.

[@HomoLudens1871]

You should check out the book club video then: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pp-ThGmflsSdgrs

[@bearhustler]

I'm wasn't a wargamer but COIN called to me, a brilliant idea and alternative to trad wargames. Root and Pax Pamir definitely helped push me in the COIN direction.

[@HomoLudens1871]

Pax Pamir is such a great game. Have you watched the interview with Cole?

[@floplord4140]

not OP but when he was interviewed on Designer Notes he talked a good deal about COIN

[@soerena88]

Oh this was a pure delight

[@HomoLudens1871]

Thanks Søren!

[@zogthedoomed]

So late to this but thought I'd add my pennys worth. I only know one other local gamer so my first jump into COIN was the Britsh Way because its 2 player and I liked the idea of it being a lighter version. I've no idea how we'd cope with a full COIN game because we both find tBW to be a brain burner. Well, we're old. And the history is horrifying as we're not taught about it in school any more because of the conservatives so it really hit home. Its wonderful to see Rodney getting back to wargames and it always nice to see Fred. And its interesting to hear Rodney and Volko talk about telling about the rules and teaching the rules. I had the same with Combat Commander .. it was the example of play that made it click. And thats why I didn't get into many LnL games, there was no example of play.

[@zeinhorn8427]

The rules explane how the world of the game works, the example of play explains how to navigate through it. The faction History gives a hint on the the strategy and tactics and what your faction wants to accomplish, short and longterm. Bringing it all together, brain...teasing.

[@HomoLudens1871]

"brain teasing" is the right word.

[@Justegarde]

Joel Eddy's review of Andean Abyss was what got me into wargaming as well :)

[@HomoLudens1871]

100%: Joel Eddy is awesome.

[@MidnightCarp]

That was most enjoyable.

[@HomoLudens1871]

🙏

[@dant2933]

I was just checking out A Gest of Robin Hood on P500 and this popped up. 😳 Looking forward to getting that one!

[@HomoLudens1871]

Thanks Dan. I'll make some videos about Gest later down the line, probably when we'll have some art. In the meantime Guerric Samples already streamed 2 games that you can watch here: www.twitch.tv/videos/1045621516

[@krookodil5829]

I have to give in, I treat Wargame and not Wargame Rulebooks very differently. Even in Root, which is very wargame like, I look into the learn to play rather than into the actual rulebook. But with wargames it is the other way round: I mainly look into the rulebook and barely into the playbook. Maybe I should try to learn GMT games by going to the Playbook first? But then you have videos for that already? In 2 weeks, I start my first game of Fire in the Lake and I have a playthrough video from "One Stop Coop Shop" ready. Maybe I start from the playbook anyway?

[@HomoLudens1871]

That's a fair point and I also think that until recently GMT's playbook were not ideal to learn the game. The latest ones really offer a more casual way to learn and treat the rulebook as pure reference.

[@HethwillWargames]

Very good chat while looking from different points of view. Rodney makes a great point on the "understanding mechanism" abstracted from the historical background being the barrier but once he connected both with the playbook then things become more clear, which comes from what the historical conflict simulation looks for - the mechanism with the purpose, not just actions to collect cabbages. I never touched a counter insurgency but getting totally into the levy and must say that is exactly the same feeling. One must go through the playbook even if that means that at every example one must change all the pieces just to verify the example of play ( in Nevsky it doesn't follow a full string of events, but jumps around with "what ifs" ; i'd rather have full plays several times, small situations ). Is it hand holding ? Not in this case. The wargames, both coin and levy, are rather complex in the sense it doesn't move necessarily on rails . supply, move, fight, cycles turn after turn.

[@HomoLudens1871]

I agree, that thematic connect is key to understand mechanics and dynamics of the game. Al so agree about Levy & Campaign, I don't think that anyone can hold your hand playing Nevsky, the playbook helps, but you have to get into it on your own.

[@HethwillWargames]

@@HomoLudens1871 as I put up somewhere "(...)I always get confused when other players talk to me in terms of numbers and factors, but I am extremely grateful when they tell me the story (...)"

[@HomoLudens1871]

@@HethwillWargames YES. I remember that during a seminar I presented wargames as a form of role play, it surprised the audience at first but they quickly liked the idea a lot.

[@Summercamp1sland]

My favorite board game series I have a distant plain and fire in the lake I plan to get Andean abyss and ghandi soon

[@nathanielchambers8974]

Interesting timing. I’m trying to learn one right now. It’s definitely been a hurdle. And it’s hard to peg why. But I have some guesses. The rulebook is incredibly verbose. This makes it difficult to ‘read’ but good when I have questions. The playbook asks me to read the rulebook frequently which I found very unhelpful in most instances. It was just too much. So I tried reading more of the playbook and not read the rulebook as much. This didn’t work out so well, the playbook seemed to be very ‘do this do that’ but often a bit disconnected from the actual rules (probably because I didn’t read when it asked me to). I finally gave up and started to just read the rulebook instead. What I’ve discovered is that if I sort of skim, it’s actually pretty good. Read what is in bold, then read the next line and then maybe move on because after that it all seems to be clarification. My suggestion is that the playbook needs to have no requirements to read the rulebook and it should open with a super basic version of the rules. Don’t tell me the faction powers. Just focus on what I can do in a turn. It doesn’t even seem like it’s that hard so much as it’s presented in a difficult manner that works well for those already familiar but is rough for those who aren’t.

[@HomoLudens1871]

Thanks for this super valuable comment ! For the ICS series we are thinking about a novel approach to teach rules and this kind of feedback is very interesting. I’ll probably talk about it in this channel as we progress on it.

[@nathanielchambers8974]

@@HomoLudens1871 happy to help! I’ve gotten a bit farther and after a lot (a lot!) of time spent, I managed to start a game with a very patient friend. Additional things I’ve noticed so far are mostly small, but potentially super important. 1 there’s no reminder on the board, that I can see, that says you gain Unity (I’m learning Gandhi) for helping the other NV faction. It’s mentioned plenty in the rulebook, so that’s a non-issue, but after learning a ton of rules to a game, it’s easy to forget the little things. Similarly my friend I was playing against forgot he could share resources between Raj and Revolutionaries. We found the railway spaces a bit confusing, we had the question of while we knew the town separated railways, the fact that the economy number was in a circle, we couldn’t quite figure out if that was a town (with the economy number listed inside) or not a town with just a nice reminder of what it’s value was. We decided on the latter, but I think if that’s the case using a different outline that isn’t a circle would be helpful. Lastly we had some issues with the phrasing’s of things on the cheat sheet, especially on the space selections. One particular one was phrase very bad and made little sense, but in the rulebook, it made nearly perfect sense. The difference was that the order of the sentence was swapped (all the same words were used otherwise) and I think a comma was removed. But on the whole it seemed like commas were frequently removed on the cheat sheet that were present on the rulebook, which made it much harder to read the space selection specifics. I’d even recommend maybe using parenthesis to help separate concepts. The usage of the word Plus also seemed to throw my friend off a lot (not me). He kept wanting to make it an additional requirement, rather than an completely additional amount of spaces that can be used. I’d recommend the + symbol perhaps be used instead. And lastly, and I know this probably isn’t popular for war games (I’ll be honest I wouldn’t know, the only other game my collection that comes close is Space Empires 4x). But, board games use symbols a lot and wow did I miss them in this game. I’ll give a small example. Let’s say I’m the Raj player (or even just trying to run the bot) and I’ve just got all these rules and concepts I’m trying to work my head around. Some text says something about Troops. And I stare blankly at the board. You see, it actually doesn’t tell you what cubes are troops and which are sepoys anywhere on the board or the player aid. Now, okay, it’s one of the basic concepts and easy enough especially if you’re just the Raj player. But if you’re playing the game solo those little things can add up like crazy. I’d absolutely find the game easier where it to pretty much always just use a Red Cube icon or a White Cube icon. I’m much less likely to mess up the rules because I won’t be like ‘oh right it said Troops, and the white cubes aren’t Troops, because in THIS game Troops is a very specific word. I thought it meant any of my cubes.’ I’ll just be like ‘oh yea red cubes only’ and that way it reduces information load. I don’t have to memorize a ton of game-specific words, in addition to a ton of game specific of rules (not even touching on game specific tactics and strategy lol). Similarly Active Activists is an important concept. But even easier and less likely to mess up would be an icon of it with a symbol showing on top, so I’d know it would have to be an active activist. Or no symbol showing if it were an inactive one or some kind of half an half for either or. And dual colored for any nv activist. Just that symbol alone would significantly reduce word count and greatly speed up the ability to see what you can do and understand your cheat sheet. I’m not saying everything should be an icon. But keywords, especially easy ones that can be represented by things you already have access too, should absolutely be an icon when possible to reduce information load. Also now having finally played the game, I stand by the idea that it’s not that hard. Had someone taught this to me, I’m positive it wouldn’t have been all that hard to learn (I’d still have a hard time with the lack of icons, it makes the cheat sheets hard to quickly parse). But learning from the book directly was much tougher than it needed to be I think. While some may have found the walkthrough helpful I think it actually made the game harder for me lol. But learning styles are so incredibly different I make no assumptions on what would be best there. But I do think writing the rules for someone like myself, someone who’s played a LOT of games (or even just more than a few) but not a lot of war games, would be helpful. Choose one of the rows of actions, the next players can either pass or follow. Etc. just all the rules that aren’t specific faction concepts that you need to get started. Then dive into faction basic overview while also saying ‘just look at the darn cheat sheet’ lol. Okay last thing I think. And this one is dumb. But at some point I misplace my cheat sheet for the end of campaign phase (victory check, deploy, income, all that biz). This left me in a small (in retrospect, silly) fuss because I got to that section in the rulebook and I didn’t see anything saying I should have a cheat sheet covering all this. And I’m just like what. The hell. How do they expect me to remember all this!? Am I to just open the rules each and every time? Now. To be fair. No other board game has told me to check out the cheat sheet. But. Because this has such an intense end of round section (and I’m gonna be honest, I don’t know, I didn’t make it to the actual end of the round in my session today), it might be worth mentioning the cheat sheet or something at the very start of the section. “The following is summarize on the large chest sheet for your convenience” is absolutely not required, but it can really help me know when to take notes. I like to take notes of concepts in board games of sort of rules that I suspect wouldn’t be on a cheat sheet. In some games it’s pretty easy to guess what those rules will be (usually foundational concepts that you may get wrong or forget) but in this particular game (and a few others) it was really hard to tell what was foundational, what was faction specific, what was a rule that wouldn’t be on the board, and what was an edge case. For example, I kept writing down that troops can’t enter a Muslim state, especially since I saw no reminder on the board. What I didn’t realize is it was just in text for essentially, by virtue of being part of the actions for the Raj player. Which totally makes sense, but when I was learning the rules was exactly the kind of thing that would throw me off. Anyway I hope that helps! Keep in mind as I said, these are my initial thoughts, I’ve only just started. I’m sure it can get easier, but by then I may not remember how hard it was to learn :P

[@HomoLudens1871]

@@nathanielchambers8974 That's awesome Nathaniel, thank you very much. Actually once we get further in the process with A gest of Robin Hood, it would be awesome to have your thoughts on it.

[@nathanielchambers8974]

@@HomoLudens1871 I’d be happy to help how I can! I made it to the end of the round of Gandhi, and I think I can say at least that one isn’t for me. But I do think with no rules changes, but only presentation changes (icons and rules phrasing), it may have been, so I’d be interested to check out the differences going forward! The learning of the game was definitely difficult, and hopefully my account of it helps going forward. I suspect the next one I learn won’t be so hard since I at least now have past experience, but I also think it would be far better if first time players didn’t have to jump as high a hurdle.

[@elqord.1118]

I wish these games would come with a third book that does what Rodney said…teach you how the main gameplay elements are connected. I really struggled with getting a feeling for many GMT games and had to watch numerous videos to get a feeling for how the gameplay will flow. I never got that from the rulebook or playbook. Later when I understood it all these books were great but never in the beginning

[@HomoLudens1871]

I agree, in a way that's a gap i'm trying to fill with the designer teach & play series, to show the flow, but also creating a space for designer to talk about the dynamics of their game (how the mechanic all connect together). It's not perfect, but i hope that it helps.

[@TheTheshadow32]

WoW Rodney started with a John Butterfield wargame!.. Who would have thought that ?

[@logicalparadox2897]

The US War on Drugs would be an interesting topic for a game, possibly a hybrid between Labyrinth and a COIN system.

[@HomoLudens1871]

That's actually an awesome idea, have you played After Pablo?

[@logicalparadox2897]

@@HomoLudens1871 I haven’t played (nor had I previously heard of) After Pablo. But I’m checking it out on BGG.

[@HomoLudens1871]

Let me know what you think.

[@leonardomartino3923]

When you see a man with Napoleon's Triumph on his shelf you know its a man with taste...

[@HomoLudens1871]

You give me too much credit Leonardo, I love the game, but only managed to play it a couple of times. It is one of my great regrets, not having the time to explore this beautiful design and really understand it...

[@philgray8811]

Yay, Ambush - how I dreaded taking my carefully husbanded squad through the "D-Day, Night Drop to Destiny" mission...

[@HomoLudens1871]

I really need to try that game!

[@cardboardconflicts]

I think Jaws of the Lion is the best “learn to play” with a rules reference. I’m not sure if you can get that style in war games though…?

[@WatchItPlayed]

I think Root did a good job too (though even there, they missed a couple of very key rules that I feel should have been in the Learn to Play guide due to how central they were, but were in the rules reference only). One of the challenges of the dual rule book formats, is deciding which rules belong in which. Personally, I'd prefer to see those choices not being made, and instead have all of the rules in each document, except that the rules reference is JUST a precise/concise listing of the rules for referencing, and the "learn to play" is more of a narratively written presentation of all the rules. Or, if you really, really felt you had to leave some rules out of the Learn to Play, and only put them in the Rules Reference, make sure those extra rules are printed in a different color in the Rules Reference, so a player could just scan that to find all of the rules the Learn to Play guide didn't cover. Actually, that's the first time that idea has come to me... I think that would solve a major issues I have with the dual rule book system in board games: making it very easy to find the rules in the reference that aren't in the learn to play guide, so one doesn't have to also read the entire rules reference to find them.

[@HomoLudens1871]

Lately a game like Atlantic Chase did something very similar, and the rule book of Conflict of Heroes has a bit this idea of a rulebook that you read only partially before each scenario.

[@johnsteidl293]

By "that style" in JotL, I assume you mean the idea of reading a few rules, playing a simple scenario, reading a few more rules, playing a slightly more complex scenario, etc. I think that's pretty rare in wargames. At best you get a distinction between basic and advanced rules, where the advanced rules might be things needed for the full campaign. Thunder in the East/ETO comes to mind there. Or ASL... which is another animal entirely. Fred has already pointed out two of the best examples. It's not common. On the broader "learning to play" question... If you look at the history of hex and counter wargaming, it's possible to uncover a "trajectory" of rules writing created by certain early personalities in the Avalon Hill / SPI world. Those guys not only defined wargaming; they defined what wargame rules should look like. This rules-as-reference model is certainly a social construct, and works ok as long as the game you're designing looks pretty much like what your reader is expecting a wargame to look like. i.e. it incorporates a set of well-understood core concepts and the only real difference is in some details. There are examples of wargames that deviate in significant ways from the community vision of a wargame, while presenting the rules in the expected way. That can lead to rules being criticized as badly written - whether they are or not - simply because a certain look and feel to the rules can trigger me to auto-apply my standard interpretive framework when it might not be helpful. Some designers address this with more examples of play tacked on at the end of the reference while others add a tutorial. As Fred points out, the recent Atlantic Chase does a good job here. Jerry White understands that he has a different animal that won't fit within any wargamer's standard interpretive framework. What I find amusing is the way he handles the rules vs. tutorial distinction. If you're a newbie, you should start with the tutorial. But if you're a "salty grognard" you can start with the ... wait for it ... tutorial. :-) He explains why in a way that shouldn't leave you feeling too salty. Credit to Volko for doing something similar. The COIN playbooks say "start here". Although the rulebooks I've seen don't say: "Read the playbook first!" I always figured that was a function of COIN as cross-over. Wargamers were going to pick up the rules and dive in. Non-wargamers would be intimidated by the rules, pick up the playbook, and breathe a sigh of relief. But I honestly have no clue and could be totally wrong. I will add that Atlantic Chase does break away from the standard reference + tutorial model in one other interesting way. As wargame rules (the reference part) have evolved to add more graphics, I usually get the feeling that the graphics are being thrown in to make the package more attractive and readable by breaking up the wall of text. The graphics in the Atlantic Chase rules are an essential component that provides key context. This was a lot of fun, guys. Thanks for investing the time.

[@papercavegames]

It'd be hard to do that with war games because JoTL is scenario based so those first 5 scenarios are tailor made to leave out certain rules. I agree though that it's the best learn to play I've experienced.

[@rougebladez7439]

Finally I can put a face to Fred Serval. Good vid guys.

[@HomoLudens1871]

Glad you enjoyed our chat!

[@paulhamrick3943]

I got into the board gaming hobby 3 years ago and I've come to learn (on my own) games as complex/heavy as Robinson Crusoe and Spirit Island, and I was aware of the COIN series and I had an attraction to them for all the same reasons that Rodney lists, so I bought Cuba Libre and I tried to learn on my own but I became demoralized. I think the level of abstraction is difficult, there's a high level of abstraction and the terminology used in the game as well as the rulebook don't help with that. I hate the terms "full op", "limited op", "special activity"... don't know why, I just hate them. But I should probably get over all that and try again. I also don't like how the same scoring track is used for each faction. They should have provided a separate board with separate scoring tracks for each faction.

[@HomoLudens1871]

Hi Paul, I agree that COIN games can be hard to get into as they are made by wargamers for wargamers and this community has a tradition of very structured and dry rulebooks that can be very hard to get into. But at its core COIN is not that complex, especially Cuba Libre and that's why on the COIN Discord server we organize some intro session for beginners to learn how to play Cuba Libre with other beginners helped by a couple of experience COIN players. You can join the server here: discord.com/invite/fUeHg8CenT We might record one of those sessions in the future, so stay tuned! Also, you might be interested by the game I designed and that GMT recently added to Pre-Order: A Gest of Robin Hood. This game is a mini COIN game made for new-comers. It's faster, lighter, has player boards and the rule book will be written in a more approachable way. You can find more info here: www.gmtgames.com/p-934-a-gest-of-robin-hood.aspx

[@scylor1993]

I love the coin games and know own 3, but the one thing that gripes me every time I play or teach them is the player aids. I do not understand why they dont ship with any playeraids using icons. If you need the very fine rulesdescription i need ot check the rulebook anyway, but if you teach the game people often end up reading all the actions every turn, which i found is not the cases if i print out some of the community made aids.

[@HomoLudens1871]

that's an interesting point as indeed for most COIN there is a fan made icon only player aids available on BGG.

[@arekkrolak6320]

13:30 who is "they" in this sentence? :)

[@HomoLudens1871]

GMT Games

[@brianlong9100]

Everyone who ever owned Ambush has owned it twice, I think...

[@HomoLudens1871]

I made the mistake of not getting it when I had the opportunity, still regret it.

[@WatchItPlayed]

@@HomoLudens1871 But just think, you saved yourself having to buy it twice, since that is how it goes, as Brian points out :)

[@HomoLudens1871]

@@WatchItPlayed 🤯

[@AnthonyAurelio]

I’d like to see a DUNE or STAR WARS themed COIN game

[@HomoLudens1871]

Pretty sure the IPs on those are quite easy to get too 🤣

[@Big_Dai]

The constant camera movements, adjustments and random messages are really annoying.