Discussing Bene Gesserit for classic Dune

[@dateris]

It's fairly on point that this video is ~2x as long as any of the other videos discussing Dune factions.

[@NaBaronLes]

I'm really glad you mentioned in advanced you only get 1 force to start anywhere not 2. I've seen internet conversations argue both ways and it was a little confusing to me which one was right.

[@jackredathewarp]

Yes it comes up a lot, so I knew I should address it.

[@sarodinian7089]

I’ve found that BG, more than any other faction, needs a plan. They are also much, much more fun to play in Advanced, but you do need to remember that the trickle of CHOAM Charity is just that. Don’t forget to grab spice! Good BG players can be infuriating in that they are rarely caught in a no win situation unless they grossly miscalculate something or get blindsided by something they didn’t know.

[@criskobeats]

Loved that video Jack! Thanks for the thorough explanation, will definitely use your tips next time I play as BG :)

[@nbu8ses43as6fivil]

Heyo! You do great work! Glad you started this channel.

[@remarkablysquare3216]

Fantastic video! I end up playing BG a lot since they are the hardest faction and I know the game better than any of my friends, so now I'll know how to crush them! lol

[@oleh_lunin]

Thank you for the video! Never once have I considered the option to actually flip back when someone ships into a territory where I have warriors. That's going to be super useful! I played a couple of nice games recently, both with the BG, and in one of them I actually was throwing battles at first by flipping in strongholds and stalling for my prediction, but later in the game, after a bunch of shipments, I was actually threatening people to flip in their stronghold, and that felt pretty nice :) Also, I almost lost the game, when I agreed to throw a battle by, and I quote: "Dialing 0, using any leader and not using any treachery cards". Well, no one said anything about traitors :) So the Atreides, who fought me, not only lost their chance at a victory, but I collected their bribe, since I completed the deal we bargained for. Also, with the BG voice, I tried doing a trick, where I was battling the Emperor, and I knew he had a poison and a projectile weapon, and I wanted to use Truthtrance in combination with the Voice to make the Emperor unable to play any of the weapons. So I tried asking: "Will you not play a projectile weapon?", he said: "Yes", then I Voiced him to "play a projectile weapon". We had a huge argument, but ultimately decided that my Voice overrode the Truthtrance, sadly :( But I do wonder if you can get away with it, if you say something like: "If you have the option of playing a weapon this battle, will it be a projectile weapon?", and then, depending on the answer, you can Voice-ban the chosen weapon. Technically, the "if you have the option" part should still allow the Truthtrance answer and the Voice command to not contradict each other (if you play no weapon at all, you satisfy both conditions, no matter the answer you gave for Truthtrance); there are a lot of strong opinions against it on the forums, though :(

[@MWepex]

TTQ: Will you not play a projectile weapon?... A: Yes. Then, BG voice: Do not use a poison weapon. Then he is bound by both the TT and BG voice.

[@oleh_lunin]

@@MWepex That is something we considered, but also ruled out. The first issue here is that the BG Voice rule states: "If your opponent can’t comply with your command, they may do as they wish." Technically speaking, in this case you have set the opponent on a path to play a poison weapon, and the voice simply causes them to not be able to comply with your command. Another interpretation is that Truthtrance can only ask about the INTENT. At the time of the first question the player's intent is to not play a projectile weapon. Then, the usage of your Voice alters that intent, since the player is now in a conundrum, and that voids the Truthtrance. There is also a third interpretation -- when a player doesn't play a weapon, they satisfy both the Truthtrance and the Voice. I guess, it ultimately depends on what your group decides, but to me, the second interpretation is probably the most just in this case; though I do like fiddling with logic in a way you mentioned.

[@MWepex]

Incorrect. @@oleh_lunin If they answered the TT that they would not play a PW, then they may not play a ProjW. Then if your BGV commands them to not play a poison then they also may not play a poisonW. The TT and the BGV do not interfere with each other. Thus your opponent would not be able to play a ProjW or a poisonW.

[@oleh_lunin]

@@MWepex I would have agreed with you a couple of weeks ago, but you can check out a relevant thread on BGG. Truthtrance as a binding card is really the subject of a heated debate. There is also Jack's video on that card that explains a bit more on the matter. It all boils down to the ruling that you do at your table, I'm afraid.

[@MWepex]

@@oleh_lunin I just watched Jack's vid on TT. It doesn't change anything. Your TT question is valid thus the answer is binding. The new BGV command that I gave is also valid and does not contradict or override the TT in any way and is also binding. Thus, giving you the result that you wanted. If you and your group want to devalue the TT and make it mean nothing go right ahead, good luck with that.

[@nbu8ses43as6fivil]

Subscription earned!

[@derek_davidson]

Yes!

[@Nic1700]

Is the BG card in the prediction deck just there to turn a your team win into, just a you win? It being in the deck really puzzled me and that's the only thing I could think of.

[@jackredathewarp]

That card is actually for when you want to randomize which factions to play. You can't actually predict the BG when playing the BG, no matter how gangster a move it would be.

[@Epistemophilos]

Great video, thanks! Around 39:00 you describe the scenario with flipping twice to help the Guild in return for a bribe. But no matter the turn order, unless you or the Guild move out - which would go against the idea - then you would end up fighting each other, right? And then there would be nothing to flip back. You could of course beam down with the Guild reinforcements but that would not be flipping anything. Sorry if I'm just being dense and thanks again for your great Dune videos!

[@guenole8851]

when Guild will reinforce his stronghold, BG can use intrusion capacity to flip fighters to advisors, so it is possible to flip twice your advisors during same turn

[@Krzysiek64]

Hi, great job, i would like to see all factions described like this. It explain many missunderstanding and there is a lot of them in BG faction. I m also curious about the situation, when BG have fighters in strongholds and someone ships their forces there, can BG flip fighters to Advisors and then add one more Advisor? It collides with rule that two different BG forces can t be in same teretority.

[@jackredathewarp]

Yes you can flip to advisors using Intrusion, and then bring along an advisor from your reserves into that territory (or the Polar Sink).

[@Krzysiek64]

@@jackredathewarp thank you very much. We were arguing about that few times and there was always tie. Now you solved our problem :) Another one came to my mind. What if BG have forces along with second faction in same teretority, but Sisters are sure about their win so they remain fighters. In this situation second faction brings (shipment or movement) more units, to win battle. Can BG flip their forces to advisors after this movement? Thanks in advance!

[@jackredathewarp]

@@Krzysiek64 each time a faction brings one or more forces into a territory with BG fighters, the BG can choose to flip their forces there to advisors.

[@guenole8851]

Nice video ! Thanks for that ! Few questions remain in my mind : - It seems advisors are shipped only with other factions shipment, normal shipment is sending fighters only, but fighters must flip to advisors if shipped (or moved) to a territory occupied by other faction and with already a BG advisor ? Is that correct or not allowed ? - If allowed, is it allowed to do a normal shipment to a territory occupied by an ally (with or without BG advisor already in) ? - Is it allowed to move fighters in a territory occupied by an ally and to flip them to advisors when entering ? Thanks

[@jackredathewarp]

BG themselves can only ship fighters. There is a new FAQ en route which corrects and clarifies everything, so I shouldn’t go more into it here since I will be contradicting current rules in some ways. I will say, we currently play the BG can’t move one type into a territory that has the other.

[@disturbed338]

do/can you cheese, while advising your ally in a stronghold, by flipping your advisors to fighters, hence blocking that stronghold and either flip back when your ally ships (if he's last - similar to your guild example) or destroy your forces at the end, but guaranteeing that stronghold?

[@jackredathewarp]

BG advisors cannot flip to fighters in a territory with their ally.

[@OmegaLinkira]

I just received the last expansion ! Amazing to see your name on it ! I was re-reading the rules, and it says that BG can flip advisors to fighters before moving phase IF we plan to fight ! Do we have to really fight ? I mean, am I allowed to flip them to fighter just to scare the enemy enough for him to leave, for example ? I know I can flip back to advisor if he add units, but if he decide not to leave, so my bluff didn’t worked, can I still leave the territory ? (PS : I’ve asked a lot of questions to you, thx A LOT for answering all, I promise this is not a joke !)

[@jackredathewarp]

No requirement to fight.

[@johnsukecafe]

I like your token frames. Are those 3d printed? If yes, where to get the .stl files for those?

[@jackredathewarp]

Etsy

[@johnsukecafe]

Thanks! Fairly cheap too@@jackredathewarp

[@freyeik]

Question with BG voice. If they voice cant play poison or projectile weapon/defense does that include poison blade/shield snooper? Also a question about the poison tooth. Do they have to say no poison tooth or is poison tooth in the same category as a poison weapon. It makes sense with Lazgun or Artillary Strike sense they are classified as special weapons. But poison tooth is classified as a poison special weapon which is confusing.

[@jackredathewarp]

It does include Poison Blade and Shield-snooper, as well as Poison Tooth.

[@Mrawesomesrb]

Hey Jack, recently found your channel and Ive been binging your dune videos. I. Have a question regarding BG. If BG has advisors in a territory with another player can they beam fighters into the area and if so, do they get to flip the advisors that were there to fighters? FAQ mentions both types of units not being allowed in the same space but I didn't know if it meant they are allowed to ship but must flip all tokens to the same side, or if they are not allowed to ship at all if there are advisors present

[@jackredathewarp]

You can only bring the in the type already there.

[@TheC0MMAND0]

Hey Jack! I got a quick question for you in about BG forces and intrusion, there are multiple effects in game that either send forces (Bene Teliaxu High Threshold, Moritani terror token, etc.) or add forces (Caladan High Threshold ability), can BG flip from fighters to advisors when these abilities happen, or is it strictly "shipping" or "moving" and not sending/adding?

[@jackredathewarp]

@@TheC0MMAND0 it is supposed to be triggered whenever anyone enters.

[@TheC0MMAND0]

@jackredathewarp Thanks for all the help answering my questions Jack! I've been working on / playtesting a homebrew house expansion and I'm trying to make it as consistent with the current rules as possible.

[@OmegaLinkira]

Nice video ! We needed that one clearly ! I have a question, regarding the new FAQ. The last question is : Suppose the BG wishes to use their advisors to battle others, how is this managed? Answer: The BG may flip advisors to fighters anywhere they wish to battle so long as they do so after the Spice Blow/Nexus phase of a turn, before shipment occurs that turn, and publicly announce the flipping. If allied forces already exist there, all but one must move out during the shipping and movement phase according to the Note: in the rules under "Alliances". But, if there is allied forces here, shoudn’t I be forbidden to flip my advisors as fighters ? Hope you can read my question, the video is few month old, I hope you come back here sometime :p Thx

[@jackredathewarp]

True, they cannot flip to fighters where their ally is.

[@OmegaLinkira]

@@jackredathewarp Wow, that was a fast answer, thanks ! So, if I may ask, in what case this last sentence would apply ? ("If allied forces already exist there, all but one must move out during the shipping and movement phase according to the Note: in the rules under 'Alliances'".)

[@jackredathewarp]

@@OmegaLinkira honestly, there are changes coming both to the faq and other related areas, so I would rather not dive any more into it. It will only complicate things

[@OmegaLinkira]

@@jackredathewarp Oh okay, I understand, let's keep it simple for now ! Thanks for the answer, it was a pain for us to understand this part of advanced powers of bene gesserit. Now it's better !

[@joshgates8147]

Say Harkonnen has forces in Carthag and I have a BG spiritual advisor there and Atreides ships forces into Carthag (along with my additional spiritual advisor). When it is my turn to ship, may I ship more “fighters” into Carthag since my advisors are already there and thus flip these fighters to advisors or am I not allowed to ship to Carthag at all since there are already two factions there?

[@jackredathewarp]

The BG can only ship fighters, so they can't ship into a territory that contains advisors already. It will hopefully be clearer when the new faq is released (some time later this year) that moving fighters into a territory with advisors IS permitted, but those fighters must flip to advisors.

[@joshgates8147]

That is great to hear that there will be an additional FAQ addressing the BG as they are my favourite faction despite my continued struggles with learning the situational nuances of the fighter and advisor shipment and movement rules. This video was an excellent overview of the faction and I will definitely refer to the new FAQ when it is released but it would be awesome if you could do a video sometime addressing the intricacies of BG fighter and advisor shipment and movement rules in more depth. Thanks again for the clarification!

[@jackredathewarp]

@@joshgates8147 will do

[@joshgates8147]

⁠@@jackredathewarp This might be a good time to ask considering the new FAQ will be releasing soon. Would it be possible for you to do an additional video covering the BG fighters/advisors shenanigans once the new FAQ is released?

[@jackredathewarp]

@@joshgates8147 I will probably have a couple FAQ videos for sure.

[@OmegaLinkira]

Hello again ! Sorry to ask you another question, but there is one point that prevent us from properly playing with BG. A previous FAQ says : What happens if the BG wants to move advisors or fighters into a territory where they have the opposite type? Answer: It can't be done. The BG forces in a territory have to be of the same type. Advisors must be flipped to fighters to move into an occupied territory where the BG already has fighters. […] And then, on the other it says : When can the Bene Gesserit flip advisors to fighters? Answer: […] 4) If moving advisors into a territory where fighters already exist. Those two statements seems to be opposed. My question is : can advisors move into a territory containing BG fighters AND opponents fighter, and then flip to fighters ? (Seems to be nOK with first FAQ statement, but OK with the second one, maybe this is an exception ?) Sorry if the answer is in the video, I’m not native English speaker, even if the video is a lot of help, I maybe wasn’t able to understand everything properly. Thanks

[@jackredathewarp]

You cannot move one type into a territory containing the other type.

[@OmegaLinkira]

Thanks ! But, if we move advisors to and empty territory, it flips automatically to fighters. So, it’s not possible to move advisors to a territory containing ONLY BG fighters (no opponents) ?

[@jackredathewarp]

@@OmegaLinkira correct

[@OmegaLinkira]

Ok thx for the answers, I think I’m starting to understand some strategies on the BG. I’ll rewatch the video. Thx again. Can’t wait to read the new FAQ !

[@jackredathewarp]

@@OmegaLinkira me too.

[@Yaegosh]

what happens if I tell them to use a poison weapon and they have no poison weapon? can they use another type of a weapon?

[@jackredathewarp]

Yea

[@NaBaronLes]

Question about Karama cards in general. Can you use Karama cards to cancel someone else's 1 time special Karama ability, and if so do they have another chance of doing that later if it was canceled?

[@jackredathewarp]

Those are not stopped by Karama. So far the only thing that stops a karama is CHOAM with the Kull Wahad. For one phase.

[@bretbays1728]

Hey Jack, I have 2 questions. 1. If someone has Thopters, could they in theory move from wherever they are, into another location, and wind up back in their starting location(so long as it's 3 ore less moves)? 2. If a BG does this, if they start as an advisor in an occupied territory then leave and come back(they do have thopter movement), can they then flip to fighters upon re-entering their starting spot?

[@jackredathewarp]

When you move, it must be from one territory to another.

[@bretbays1728]

So no ending up back where you started ? Like out of a sietch then back in? I assume the hajr would be an exception to this as its considered two movements?

[@jackredathewarp]

@@bretbays1728 correct

[@bretbays1728]

Last question(thanks for the speedy responses) would the richese orthopters card also allow you to move out and back into the same territory or no?

[@jackredathewarp]

@@bretbays1728 nope

[@georgebergeon6288]

Does a spirtual advisor in Arakeen/Carthag give the Bene Gesserit the ornithopthers?

[@jackredathewarp]

No. Spiritual advisors don't even count as being on the board for most effects (other than negative ones like worms, storm, atomics).

[@BjarteInNorway]

Can you use your normal shipping as BG to ship in advisors in an occupied area? Or do you have to ship in fighters when you’re using normal shipping?

[@jackredathewarp]

Advisors only are supposed to ship with other factions.

[@bretbays1728]

If bene and atredes are allied, and another faction ships from off planet into an atredes stronghold, are the bene gesserit allowed to ship an advisor into the polar sink instead using advanced game rules?

[@jackredathewarp]

They can always go to the sink.

[@robertpopchristov682]

If you have advisors in three strongholds where 2 other players are doing combat in all of them, and somehow they kill all forces in all thee fights, do your advisors flip to fighters as being alone in that territory and then you win the game? I guess if this happens in one stronghold during the game as well with income of spice, you flip and own the stronghold when collecting income?

[@jackredathewarp]

That does appear to be how it works, rules as written. it is not, however, how I play them. I suspect they will undergo a future "adjustment", and the upcoming version of the FAQ will align with the notion that after Shipping and Movement, they don't automatically flip to fighters.

[@SaltTheFries86]

Playing first game of Dune tomorrow, and advanced one - quick question from me. When you coexist at a sector where 2 other Houses fight and they kill each other, can you flip your Advisor to Fighter and collect Spice in Phase 8?

[@jackredathewarp]

For now, you can.

[@SaltTheFries86]

​@@jackredathewarp Thanks, Jack! Follow-up question: do you think Arrakeen is the best place to start as BG in advanced? :) and also another small one for BG - with paid shipment you ALWAYS ship Fighters and there isn't any edge case in which you can do paid shipment of an Advisor?

[@jackredathewarp]

@@SaltTheFries86 You only ship advisors on other players’ turns. I prefer Carthag.

[@alvarorodriguez1592]

Suppose there's an army deployed with a spiritual counselor, and it moves. Does the counselor follow the troops, or does it stay?

[@jackredathewarp]

Advisors do not move on other players’ turns.

[@kountou1232]

So I am a bit confused about the prediction advantage, I am new I made a bit of search some people say you can assign all the factions currently playing in the board game in the prediction deck others say you can only assign one faction in the prediction deck, which one is true ?

[@jackredathewarp]

@@kountou1232 you pick one faction from those in the game, and one turn card. That comprises the prediction.

[@pairot01]

Is there no coexistance in this version?

[@jackredathewarp]

There is, it just isn’t called that.

[@percymacdonald6657]

If a NG player in an alliance wins with prediction does their ally also win?

[@jackredathewarp]

No. BG prediction means win for BG alone, even if they predicted their own ally.

[@percymacdonald6657]

So if say an emperor harkonnen alliance wins turn 7 and the bg player predicts either one t7 then the BG player wins alone and both the emperor and harkonnen lose?

[@jackredathewarp]

@@percymacdonald6657 correct

[@apostateCourier]

I disagree with Weirding Way falling under the Shield category for the purposes of the Voice. It is not a shield. It does not cause Lasgun/Shield explosions. Making the BG player be careful with their wording makes sense, and this ruling would be enough to have me choosing to leave the table.

[@jackredathewarp]

It requires a different perspective. If you are using the term "shield" then no. But the proper way to employ voice is using the term "projectile defense". If BG forbid the use of projectile defense, then WW cannot be used as such.

[@apostateCourier]

Oh, of course, but in the video it is claimed that Voice banning shields is enough to ban Weirding Way.

[@jackredathewarp]

@@apostateCourier where do I say that?

[@apostateCourier]

13:30

[@jackredathewarp]

@@apostateCourier As I state right there in that clip, you have to be careful about using the shorthand of "shield". If you are going to be the kind of player who is betting on semantics to get around the Voice, then I do think you should leave the table.

[@colinbyer3018]

Would you sort of agree that bene gesserit is too weak in the normal game? It has no spice income low starting spice no starting guys on board and no movement advantages and no treachery card advantages to make up for it

[@jackredathewarp]

The Voice still tends to make up for any other deficiencies.

[@colinbyer3018]

@@jackredathewarp so is it a bad idea to play with advisors if you’re not playing advanced to try to balance it

[@colinbyer3018]

@@jackredathewarp because in my eyes the voice is just about as good as atriedes battle plan question but then atriedes also gets 10 starting guys 10 spice and gets to see bidding cards and spice blow cards

[@roylecomte4606]

1 , BenGes ' advisors ' both sides of battle in same ' location ' . 2 , 1 BenGes leader each ' advisors ' Each [2 , 3 ,4 way battle ? ? ? ] Sides in battle at same location . 2.1 or 1 BenGes leader And BenGes cheap hero[en] . 3 treachery cards (pull ) all leaders of all non BenGes sides . You all lose BenGes gets all spice No nuke or battle card attacks deffence ... Tell me why? Where ? Rules say cant do that ?

[@jackredathewarp]

I don’t really understand this question/scenario- BG can never have both types of forces in the same territory. If they only have advisors, then they do not battle.