Discussion with JeeNiNe | DS 3, Life Strategies, and Beyond

[@Bdubzs]

Very nice interview and insightful on how Jeenine came up in the scene, I have to say I agree with everything he said pretty much, glad to see a lot more people seem to understand top tier PVP and the mentality instead of the same old “top tier PVP boring passive unskilled” I always tried to explain to players that the best I can, a lot of them would just assume “oh he just used CS that’s the only reason he’s good” but the community seems to be a lot more open minded now which is awesome I’m glad Jeenine showed players you can play like that with any weapon you like just up to you and how far you wanna go. Motivation is a big thing once you lose that you will stop passing your limits and improving. Great job boys and I’m proud of both you guys for keeping the community strong respect, Jeenine he came a long way and he proved himself best player of recent years no doubt. Hope all is well with everyone I haven’t talked to in a while too I may not be super involved like I used too, but elden ring may change that it looks promising and it might ignite the flame again. Anyways take care and have a good day everyone!

[@iamamish]

What's up man? You were one of the first to make me realize how deep the rabbit hole goes and to understand how much better I could be. Miss seeing you around dude.

[@fludeo1307]

But man, i dont know why people take jeenine too serious. His background is from an fps in CONSOLE. The only thing that is trully competitive in console is fighting games. Aside from that, there is not a thing like top tier players, there is competent players, but ds3 is far from being competitive... specially in console with a lower playerbase and no rank system. Totally easy to say top tier in a game where there is not a proper rank system and you face people that doesnt even hardswap or ring swap. he always bring the fact that people compares him to chase the bro. the diference is that chase knows that this game has 0 depth compared to other games and is extremely easy to be good at it. But jeenine thinks he is god, is like a high rank LoL player

[@iamamish]

@@fludeo1307 I really don't understand attitudes like yours. You can't compete in a game unless it has a leaderboard? People have been competing in games since long before leaderboards were a thing. Leaderboards came as a result of competition, not the other way around. And no, it is not easy to be top tier, or everyone would be top tier. If you disagree you should be entering more tournaments and winning them, as Jee has. Alternatively, start your own stream and you can show us all how easy it is to be at the top.

[@fludeo1307]

@@iamamish ok my defninition of top tier, is diferent than yours. You are using ''top tier'' as ''competent''. It seems you never competed outside Ds3. jeenine calls shitters to non competent players, and calls top tier to competent players. thats because his real experience in competitive gaming comes from Console gaming (and not FG the only competitive thing in consoles) . he plays With a lower playerbase and with more restrictions to make a proper build , tell me how many people can get 20 gundyrs and 20 ledos in ps4? how many people is willing to call a friend to duplicate items? how many people plays with friends? too many barriers. in pc you can have X build in ten minutes with the amount of X weapons or the layout you want. im from argentina, i never gonna be able to compete against your ''top tiers'' because geographically would be like 300 ms if conection is stable (also i play on pc). But i can guarantee that i practiced the stuff and i beat a considerable amount more of people than before practicing hardswaps , and estus cancels for invasions. Thats why im saying hardswaps are pretty op in a bad way.

[@iamamish]

@@fludeo1307 OK you're kind of all over the place. Please tell me you are not suggesting that what makes JeeNiNe good is having 20 Gundyrs. That was a rather late addition to his build, and it makes it easier to swap to Gundyr from virtually any inventory location. Yes, it makes him better but his skill comes from another place. You could take all the Gundyrs out of his inventory and his win rate would not change very much. I'm definitely NOT using 'top tier' to mean, 'competent'. For example, I'm competent, and in fact I'm pretty good. I am not however, 'top tier'. Top tier to me represents maybe 50 players total. Going back to the original argument, you were suggesting the game is not competitive because there is no leaderboard. That is an argument I hear a lot but it makes no sense, and you yourself seem to be backing away from that position. There are plenty of ways to compare player skill other than an in-game leaderboard - as I said, plenty of games have been doing it for decades. He competes in tournaments too, so it's not like he's just beating on casuals. Your definition of 'competitive' is not very useful and is quite misleading.

[@Jeenine]

Great interview amish I took some notes about what the interviewee said

[@theiyrosthenes1639]

Holy shit jeenine lore

[@Azexlify]

Ah yes, my two favorite creators. Get Amir in here and it'd be a perfect podcast imo.

[@mako096]

Man this was a treat. Listened to it in it's entirety and genuinely soo much good info here. Thanks for having this discussion

[@attitude99player]

Amazing interview. Thank you.

[@Jnigo]

Just listened to all of this, I haven't been in tune to the souls community in years but one person I always check up on is you, genuinely one of the nicest dudes in this community wish u well

[@iamamish]

Thanks mate, good to hear from you. Thnx for watching/listening.

[@FuriousGeorge321]

Just finished listening to the entire discussion and it was most excellent. If you listen through to the end, you will become top tier. If you listen to it twice, you will probably go Super Saiyan.

[@soulreaper1461]

I'm halfway through and I'm feeling the Kaioken already

[@iamamish]

If you watch the video multiple times you’ll ascend to early access for Elden Ring

[@Jeenine]

And this is the exact moment where he became FuriousGeorge322

[@DS_DoggerX]

Looking forward to watching this over a cup of coffee tomorrow morning! I'll leave you with a like for now!

[@bretth3216]

Great interview Amish, though we also miss seeing "YOU" around in DS3 as well. Always look forward to more of your excellent vids!

[@Felicificity]

Good stuff guys. Love hearing y’all just talk the real nitty gritty details.

[@bretth3216]

beautiful, just beautiful

[@niklandry3554]

G9's comment about hard swapping is so well said, and so true! Good stuff!

[@BlackBrain1337]

Hey Amish great vid. I am 36 years , father of a 5 year old , running succesful export business , "work addict" since several years. But DS3 gave me peace of mind in some dark times and so i stuck around for 5 years ... And Jee is my "hero" , not just the way he plays but what he says , how he carries himself and what he gives to the community. Thats why , as a player i will always look up to him and support the man. Have a good day you Guys 😎

[@frostifox8185]

I thoroughly enjoyed this, very informative

[@angelperezmonarrez9892]

What an interview. Thanks JeeNine and iamamish

[@glinteastwood]

This is an absolute treat. Thank you guys.

[@janewhitwork8264]

53:20 This right here is so true. What hardswap-haters don't understand is that hard swapping weapons allows players to use a big variety of weapons that would otherwise never see use at a tryhard level of play. I love big weapons like gugs and Ledo, but if I had to optimize around softswapping those weapons, I wouldn't use them ever. If players lost the option to bring many different weapons, they would NEED to bring 1-2 light weight weapons that can deal with 95-100% of matchups. Softswap murky would no longer be a show of low skill, it would become necessity to deal with other softswap murkies. The most optimal setups in DS3 are a collection of light-weight weapons that primarily fight with pure, tight spacing. The only reason the average casual player is not getting pkcs vortexed by every tryhard they encounter is because those tryhards have the option of not always using those S tier weapons. It is very much in these casual players' interests that other players get the option to quickly change their loadout.

[@iamamish]

I think there is an argument to be made that the lack of a weapon switching animation is a deficiency of the hardswapping implementation, but I otherwise agree entirely.

[@fludeo1307]

i actually use hardswaps but cannot say is good for the game and doesnt make me a better player cuz is something that has no counterpart. I mean , is not an option because is the only option to be competent. Gives depth to the game, but not in the right way. Is like wave dash in melee a non sensical skill check. Ends with you winning because you just match weapons.

[@sadorphanboy1949]

Not as much fan boy-ing from Amish as I expected

[@iamamish]

Thnx for the feedback, I'll fix that for the next discussion

[@ClashMagique]

Wow this is great

[@Prynne_]

Really excellent interview, with some great insight on mindset especially. You really do have to want it, love what you do, and do it with passion, because without that, you just won't do it. Jee brings it back up later when he talks about his Claymore play, and I couldn't agree more. Do it your way, and want to do it. Because otherwise, what's even the point?

[@godFilo]

Gonna watch this on my way to work

[@red_catharsis]

You said something really cool around 43:00 about roll catching. A mid tier player will know about roll catches, a high tier player will recognize when someone is trying to roll catch them. Messing with that process is something I’ve been doing recently and it’s been a lot of fun. Instead of just waiting a beat and dodging their roll catch I’ll swap to a either quick wep or one with H/A and take advantage of their pause waiting for me to roll and just attack 😂 it’s high risk for sure, but damn is it fun to see them fall apart after that. Another thing I wanted to add is what you were saying about “swappers”. You know that back in the day I was a straight swapper and crit fisher, but after my long break I decided to put away the parry tool away and focus on the fundamentals and it was the greatest thing I ever did for my gameplay. I’ll always have my fish and swap skills in my back pocket, but not focusing on landing a swap and instead implementing my speed in the menu practically to improve my rustic play made me an overall better player. At this point I’m rambling, but I could talk about this stuff for hours and that’s why I love your vids :)

[@iamamish]

Yeah and when you really start paying attention to what other players are doing, you realize how much of it is by habit, and therefore very easy to predict and outplay. Thanks for watching and the kind words mate.

[@red_catharsis]

@@iamamish that’s a great way of putting it!

[@clognog8049]

what he said about the claymore reminds me of dead again. I done so much with it lately. spent 3 hours try to hit the spears player boss with it, and even found the one type mob an invader can use without a seed active.

[@Felicificity]

Please share this forbidden knowledge 🤯

[@clognog8049]

@@Felicificity ok, its the hollows the dogs kill in the undead settlement. they do not count as the invaders team so you can blow em up. i have a video called invading with dead again. It shows ya how.

[@MultiDraco999]

I remember you've wanted to do this video for like a year now, nice!

[@sturmmagnunstein1008]

56:05 Totally agree. I love watching G's gameplay, but his copy cats are often players that embody none of his virtues but all the common sins of a shitter.

[@clognog8049]

I hardly use small weapons, even know i probably should. but the great sword and other large weapons work fine for me.

[@kyronix560]

podcast for life

[@Fedorchik1536]

JeeNiNe: "I'm an artist myself. I'm a performance artist." sorry xD

[@pretty_fly_for_a_jeskai]

Brb, gonna fill up the bottom half of my pyro/mage's inventory with multiple copies of Witch's Locks, actually probably fills in a lot if medium range utility because people see caster and expect one thing.

[@epideme3416]

This reminds me of posse slayers pod casts, I miss this type of angle on dark souls just chatting to decent players and enjoying the interaction and general conversation👍

[@vinbaz1337]

Hey Amish! Listening to the interview as im writing this. But it got me wondering, are you playing Elden Ring?

[@bhuwin6186]

I fck with roll catchers by swinging back, (but only do it once)

[@bretth3216]

No I mean JeeNiNe really does have some absolute truths in this interview about mindset. Hear him saying this in his streams, and I thought I got it at the time, not sure anyone else understood what he is saying. Not that I follow these rules.....100% OF THE TIME, BUT IT IS THE MINDSET THAT makes me fail myself at the game in the end. great truths...for me at least

[@hellojim7245]

First! Something sober me will be proud of

[@Sidedwand]

Oh god that's a lot of time

[@fludeo1307]

the hardswap stuff is pretty bad for the game, yes is cool i use it... it gives me an edge over others but is like estus cancel is not an option not to use it. As an example: estus cancel would be balance if only heals you half , so that would give you another option ''full heal or half heal''. As it is right now Estus cancel is straight up better than normal heal. Hardswap is straight up better than softswap . One of the things we dont like in ds3 is that there are some weapons or WA or Spells that do the same thing but better than others W WA and Spells... So what we are talking about? isnt estus cancel and hardswaps the same problem that the game already have with all those things i mentioned? Or i justify the existence because those things let me win more easily? if you defend Hardswap and Cancel or any other thing that lets you win more often, is very hypocrite from your part. it does not raise the skill lvl. Is not like combos in FGs , you can practice your combos it takes some mechanical skill but you have to confirm your hit to actually perform your combo, and to confirm your hit you play by the same rules that the other person that didnt practice his combos. In Ds3 you practice stuff that literally gives your more posibilities than the others who dont practice those things. Its like 1 vs 1 fighting game where 1 player has 2 buttons and the other has 4.

[@iamamish]

"In Ds3 you practice stuff that literally gives your more posibilities than the others who dont practice those things." Well, yes - isn't that almost by definition what it means to be better than somebody else? To do things they cannot do? If I invade a PVE'er who never learned to parry, and I parry him, is that unfair?

[@fludeo1307]

@@iamamish ''learn to parry'' is totally in the game logic, hardswaps scape from the design logic thats why you have softswaps. So literally gives you too much adventage over someone who is not willing to play outside the rules. The good gamer should be carried by reads... not by skill checks that are stupid in the game design. Tell me why should someone use normal heal when you can estus cancel? Pretty bad for the game overall... if you cannot understand that is because you like being carried by those things. Play any other proper competitive game and you'll see what i mean. you can still reward better mechanical skill without breaking the game with good design. i can give you an example, in apex legends there is 2 snipers ''Longbow'' and ''sentinel'' Longbow is semi automatic, easier to use and does 60 damage sentinel is not semi auto, damage without charge is just 70 but has higher multiplier for headshots. So a skilled player could perform way better with sentinel than and a noob player, but longbow is a safe choice for noobs. That way you reward mechanical skill and there is reasons to pick both. it doesnt scape game logic. So objetively speaking is bad for the game. or you like to play against few people? i can bet you that a game without those flaws would bring more players and better players overall.

[@fludeo1307]

@@iamamish kzbin.info/www/bejne/gHuXkoydZcdnsNk kzbin.info/www/bejne/eWTUZqGJpqyLqJY to understand the point.

[@hak2297]

@@fludeo1307 Hardswap in a mechanic in the game, it's not a glitch. You can't rly argue that it's not in the game, just because it's not intuitive. There are also advanced spacing techniques, weapon matchup knowledge, backstab knowledge and so many things that require learning, u can argue that some are glitches, but opening a menu and swapping a weapon quickly is not. Also what you said about fighting games is not true, alot of these games have "techs" and glitches that require advanced inputs to perform, beyond combos that are in the menu or "intended", in fact most games have stuff like that to varying degrees, think wave dashing in super smash etc.

[@fludeo1307]

@@hak2297 yes most Games have exploits but these exploits not always are Gamebreaking or not always are just the Best choise in every situation. Hardswaps and estus cancels are always the best option over normal swap and normal heal. Is Bad for the Game. Is just good for slaying noobs

[@jarrarwinks8470]

Did you get into the beta

[@iamamish]

Sort of, I did not originally but I managed to worm my way in

[@bukharajones]

I feel like I stumbled on off hand hand ax three years ago after seeing pitch forks and off stocs and thinking, hey, maybe this hand ax? Could I be an unsung innovator? 😀 In my last bout of pvp, I did practice a bit of hard swapping and making layouts. But on console, the idea of gathering all the “stuff” online to make any sort of hard swap layout set up just makes me a bit ill. You need to find people and try and meet up and it’s just so much friction. Also, being on the wrong side of forty, I think I peaked three years ago with time and motivation. Pvp, like most things, is a young man’s game…

[@bukharajones]

A good interview, though. I still hold that you’ve got to be in the 1% of past and present pvpers… there’s been a lot of them, you know. 😀

[@kyronix560]

the background flickers the whole video for me. wth?

[@iamamish]

Maybe it's on your end, I'm not seeing any flicker. If you keep seeing it lmk and I'll look into it more.

[@kyronix560]

@@iamamish I gave it a reload. thank you!

[@pietrokc]

Very interesting interview! I love the content from Amish and G9. I do want to put something out there that I never see brought up and I'm interested to hear what either of you think. At around 50min you're discussing hardswaps and someone says something like, "anything that raises the skill ceiling is good" -- and to me that's clearly false. Let's do a thought experiment: let's imagine we have a game that's exactly like DS3, except every time you land a hit, the game pauses, a chessboard comes up, and you have to play a game against the guy you hit. And you only do damage if you win. That's a raise of the skill ceiling. You now have to be good at DS3 _and_ chess. But nobody wants this. Why? Well, because now you're requiring a skill (chess) that's completely unrelated to the reasons why people are attracted to Souls games in the first place. To me, it's the same with menuing. Yeah it requires skill. But it has nothing to do with any fighting fantasy that I can conceive of. (Not to mention the whole system being broken, with softswaps being slower _and_ counting against equip load.)

[@iamamish]

Very good point! I also agree that raising the skill gap *per se* isn't always a good thing. In fact, the point I was trying to bring up (I did not do a very good job) was related, but different from yours. Raising the skill ceiling in Souls games has an interesting side effect - when you make the PvP less intuitive, it makes it less accessible to PVE'ers. I think one of the great things about DS 3 combat is that it is (at least superficially) accessible to noobs. It's not confusing; it's not like DS 1 where if you don't understand the BS system in detail, you're going to get chain BS'd.

[@BlackBrain1337]

Nice post and yet so untrue. Swaping is a skill which requires months of practice. Its difficult to do in combat , memorizing your inventory layout , learning the movesets , timings etc. But at the same time its the pinacle of skill in DS3 pvp. Yes sure you can continue to space and time your oppononent learning the same few weapons , resulting in both yoy Guys reading each other out and trying to outmanover one another ... but it gets really boring after a while. Swaps give you the possibility re-arrange the whole momentum of the match , add dynamics and element of suprise. You have way more tools and your opponent has more things he has to worry about. You also get a taste of more weapons which you previously didnt touch. For me its much more fun this way and definetly progress in skill. Respect your opinion thou bro , everyone does what they like 😎

[@pietrokc]

@@BlackBrain1337 I agree with most of what you say, of course swaps take tremendous skill. But at the same time I feel like you're not responding to my actual argument. Chess also takes tremendous skill, and yet we don't want chess in Dark Souls. I'd be all for swaps if the system for it didn't look so awful and didn't render softswaps a joke. Make softswaps not count towards equip load, make hard/soft swaps equal speed, maybe add more softswap slots and button combos to switch directly to specific slots. Then I can have an pvp match where I don't have half my screen obscured by a menu half the time, and the fight looks more like an actual fight instead of a videogame.

[@jimmyrustles358]

Hey Amish, I have been wondering for some time now whether the community as a whole got the SL for PvP wrong. I was tinkering around with SL 81 accounts and found that the diversity of builds you can do is massive compared to 125 and requires alot more decision making when factoring in weapons and rings. For example, the stat investment needed for Murky (11 Faith and Int) would force you to sacrifice levels elsewhere in a meaningful way. I was massively into DS1 PvP and always thought 125 was perfect, but now reflecting on it, it might not have been. The extra levels in that game essentially allow you to vit gouge which basically completely makes up for the Chaos Blades one weakness, which may have impacted variety. I think the community took the PVP SL meta from DeS and sort of ran with it and never really reflected on whether it was the right decision. With Elden Ring coming up, I think it's kind of important and would like to hear your thoughts. Great interview btw. Jeenine videos got me into DS3 pvp.

[@iamamish]

Yeah you're not the first person to suggest that the meta SL is too high. Jblackmel made a similar argument with Bloodborne, IIRC. Regarding exactly what the correct meta is, I'm not really sure.

[@pr6235]

Holy shit this is long

[@iamamish]

I could easily have gone another hour, I had so many things I wanted to ask

[@limitsatinfinity4393]

Hey Posse, I am loving this 40/40 podcast.

[@iamamish]

I made 40/40 podcasts, Posse's are 50/50