DS 3 | Git Gud - Reads

[@surdus_anguis6035]

Crazy to think you were all but done with ds3 a couple of years ago, but here you are halfway through 2021 posting more videos. Ds3 is like Hotel California. You can check out any time, but you can never leave. Love you Amish

[@iamamish]

Roughly a year ago: Me: "I'm done with this game" Specter: "You'll be back" Me (8 hours later, booting DS 3) - I see a steam message from Specter: "Told ya"

[@GhostGirlBlues]

@@iamamish we might be in the last phase of DS3's time in the spotlight (before elden ring probably changes things), but i am just now really getting started in learning pvp. thank you for continuing to make videos like these

[@Specter9337]

@@iamamish glad you remembered that

[@bukharajones]

@@iamamish it’s a pretty good game

[@kazj4908]

@@GhostGirlBlues rip

[@remembernavarro5344]

I can't believe you fucking killed the Ninja Turtles, dude.

[@aether3456]

i cant believe vanilla had feints all this time and i didn't realise

[@arondight6156]

._.

[@regichannel4823]

the mixups are the friends we made along the way

[@lovewilcox6874]

There's nothing worse than anticipating the anticipation of your rollcatch only to die by eating 6 R1s in a row xD Some times you can play so smart that you get beaten by the dumbest things.

[@bhuwin6186]

Tbh those R1 were most likely predicted gatcha bitch plays

[@DonFabian420]

me & my pal were the ninja turtles, that was a long time ago so is great seeing it back from your perspective, gg man

[@iamamish]

Ha, that's awesome. GG, that was a while back. That footage is probably almost a year old now.

[@_MrBlack]

congrats! very funny man

[@ringo7499]

literally impossible to get salty when a gank has suck a fun theme

[@SneaselGaming]

Not going to lie, those gankers at 7.15 had a fucking fantastic theme.

[@iamamish]

It would have been cool if they had taken the theme investment and applied it to their connection, but I agree, it was pretty funny.

[@iamamish]

In retrospect that’s unfair. They’re probably just far away

[@DonFabian420]

@@iamamish to be honest back then we didnt knew how latent of a gank we were making, we are all from different continents lol

[@iamamish]

@@DonFabian420 yeah I regret the earlier comment. Most of us can't control our connections, and a lot of latency is just distance-based. Your gank was pretty popular in the comments section, nice job.

[@DonFabian420]

@@iamamish oh dont worry about it, after understanding how latency affected the PvP I try to be more mindful of timezones and regions, but back then we had no idea

[@antekralj7875]

Ninja turtle gank could actually have been more dedicated ngl. Twinaxes over two parrying daggers.. smh. Also great as always!

[@mikaj1462]

Exactly my thoughts

[@surdus_anguis6035]

Or even the brigand daggers

[@eyesontheinsides]

They needed the säi

[@bhuwin6186]

This was pre timeskip

[@GhostRiposte]

I could listen to your PvP breakdowns all day, they've 100% made me half way decent instead of terrible haha

[@iamamish]

I always enjoy reading feedback like that, glad to hear!

[@dimlydumbor934]

That ninja turtle gank was awesome, nice video.

[@shnurr214]

Amish has been on a roll with videos lately. GG I love your videos man they are what got me into invading in the first place.

[@FuriousGeorge321]

I know it’s sour subject but your opening statement also applies to casters. When people make a caster class for a day because they want the op damage, unfortunately they play passively and that leads to spamming from range. Making reads allows you to get in closer and helps set up a fight in your favor which also results in way less co-invader mishaps.

[@hobosorcerer]

Oh yes, I've given Amish trouble for neglecting to consider mages when giving his advice myself, but to be fair it's not something he's very knowledgeable about.

[@FuriousGeorge321]

Well to be fair it’s not common for a fighting construct to carry over to the caster side of things. This video actually applies.

[@Archreux-Leudegrad]

Man, I absolutely love these vids of yours. So glad to see ya uploading more. This sort of meta-commentary on PvP and the like is not a thing many people cover to this degree. The game within' the game aspect is so important, and it's awesome to see someone go over it.

[@cronoz-sensei4259]

Great video, I honestly feel like in certain times you are overthinking things, but its still very fun to listen to the ideas. Ive only recently started watching for patterns, and that was after a long break from DS3 (contrary to popular belief, best way to deal with a skill wall is to take a break and come back after a month or so and derust). And ive been dueling really good players for the longest. I think Ill just drop my few cents for people who are reading this: 1. In duels in Dark Souls 3, no matter what weapon you are using or what player you are playing, think about the arena you are playing in first, more so about walls. Ive learned from using snb for a long time that the main way to force damage onto a passive player is to force them into a wall at old wolf and force backswing damage on them. That is why wolf is such a beloved arena, its large enough to allow for spacing but has a lot of corners you can trap someone in as a inevitable punishment for passive backpeddaling play. That way you can even defeat a passive fast curved sword or dagger player on there (if the dagger lacks qs coz qs has way too many s and queues too fast out of roll). 2. Pressure you do shouldnt come from staying in their face, chasing them or attacking. It should come from spacing that allows for whiffpunishes or predicted interupts/good running attacks. A lot of people told me my main issue was that I was chasing people for way too long. This allowed me to get prediction spammed or whiffpunished a lot. At first I didnt know what to do, I was so used to the greatsword school of thought being "swing when you feel your opponent will attack" which worked for a long time. Nevertheless, since it stopped working I forced myself into going mainly for reaction whiffs and doing less running attacks. At first I felt really passive, but my win rates shot up really high. And after some time Ive realized what I was missing, the whole "pressure with spacing into a corner" and thus also the first point Ive mentioned. I was not being passive just because I was not swinging, I was aggressing and pressuring people into the corner due to my surperior spacing and well spaced running attacks. As such, I also realized why I like old wolf so much and why dueling at arena and pontiff gets you nowhere. It is so easy to run away at both due to their round nature. As such, I have to say I despise both with a burning passion for this reason. TL;DR for ppl who are too lazy to read (I am too): Dont swing out so much and round plaza and pontiff are lowkey trash arenas.

[@iamamish]

Great tips. I completely agree with you re: Old Wolf. Pontiff just makes it way too easy to play the passive backpedal game. RE: staying in somebody's face - I agree, I don't mean to suggest that is how to play all the time. You can feint, bait whiffs, and then move in a pressure. Once you've hit somebody though, it's not really the time for the neutral dance to bait whiffs (mostly - there are exceptions); it is time for pressure.

[@cronoz-sensei4259]

@@iamamish indeed, what I mainly meant was that instead of swinging I just chased him around without doing much. And that cost me many matches against top tiers.

[@Crowned_PvP]

One thing I have to say about this is that doing mirrors with the top weapons are the best for learning how to read. Learning how to escape pressure is something that murky mirrors really teach because it is difficult to escape. For learning spacing reads pkcs really gives you experience and teaches you how to capitalise as much as possible on your pressure with roll catch timing. Weapons like corvian and ss offstoc teaches how to hunt for those roll catch chains which is really useful

[@coldhardjayard5424]

murky mirrors don't really teach you anything honestly especially on high latency. Low latency murky vs pkcs or pkcs mirror tho is pretty good if both players are good. Look at hak vs assassin bo9. Really well played by both of them

[@Crowned_PvP]

@@coldhardjayard5424 how do murky mirrors not teach anything outside of low lat? Is it that there is no skill involved? The fact that the I frames are buffed with lat means that it is more difficult for both sides to catch qs but then what is the difference between a top murky player and a regular murky player. It is their understanding of the priorities and their ability to make reads. If I'm wrong then there would be no difference between a top and mid level murky plauer

[@coldhardjayard5424]

@@Crowned_PvP well high latency changes the rules a bit. High latency makes spacing, one of the fundamental skills in ds3, harder and less rewarding due to the latency allowing players to still roll after getting whiff punished on reaction. The difference in skill comes down to experience and matchup knowledge which are skills, but having fast reactions and knowing when to capitalize on your opponent's mistakes are skills that I would personally say show who the better player is. Murky mirrors come down to r1 qs repeat until someone dies. Regen further decreases the skill gap between players Don't believe me? Watch g9 and specter's fights. High latency and murky allows the fights to become much closer than they realistically should be even tho it's a top player vs a mid tier Murky mirrors on low latency can also be as entertaining as pkcs vs murky on low latency, but the fact that you can cancel the recovery of your dagger r1 with qs still makes the fights very one dimensional. Sure ds3 pvp as a whole is one dimensional, but murky exaggerates this problem imo tl;dr, l2p

[@ayman___16]

Great video! I feel like reads are one of the most important components in pvp, duelling or invading and this video makes me want to learn reads more. Also, lol at the tmnt gank

[@KawaZeke]

You forgot the Follower's saber WA is a true combo ? haha it hurt so much to see that Leonardo getting away like that lol

[@albertcorderoart]

I got to admit I'm really bad at PvP but I think it's fun and I'm learning a lot from you. Great content

[@GoGoZebras]

Git Gud at recognizing that this message is just a longer Algorithm wussup

[@coldhardjayard5424]

hi

[@limitsatinfinity4393]

Probably one of your best videos

[@iamamish]

Wow, that's high praise, thanks Limits!!

[@Jopeymessmusic]

Talking about skills and reads over a clip of dagger WA spam is top tier editing. I'm very much of the Reggie mindset these days. I will say, PKCS is the only weapon I can consistently roll catch anyone with. I've also watched a few jeeNine videos on your recommendation, he's ok but I think you've hyped him up a lot! Ha ha ha.

[@coldhardjayard5424]

who is reggie?

[@Jopeymessmusic]

@@coldhardjayard5424 Old Nintendo dude. He was a meme a while ago.

[@sunsetwalnut6678]

If I had a soul item for every time I heard Amish say "reads" I'd have as many souls as a ganker 😄 Great vid Amish, good to see ya enjoying ds3 in its final months.

[@iamamish]

Ha - thanks Sunset, good to see you. I can't wait for Elden Ring.

[@eyesontheinsides]

You still playing?

[@sunsetwalnut6678]

@@eyesontheinsides not as much but ye

[@Specter9337]

something I noticed is when you're roll catching people with a curved sword they will R1 out of hitstun after the third roll catch. happens with a lot of other weapons as well.

[@iamamish]

That's an interesting observation.

[@BadgerOrion]

"Predict their predictions" I like that. But what if they predict that you are planning to predict their prediction?? What then? Lol great video as always!

[@iamamish]

Ha then you are into the world of mind games!

[@Vincent_Thatch]

Some players have such bad net they can reaction roll PKS. The just get hit and the damage comes during the roll.

[@MultiDraco999]

It's really hard in natural play (matches or invasions) to get opponents to really punish your habits as there isn't a lot of them doing so. But there was a really humbling experience where I was playing pretty well - and like you mentioned this guy put me into a staggered r1 combo, caught my panic roll and proceeded to blunder me to zero. Putting someone in roll catch hell is really tricky for me as I always incorrectly predict when they'll hit me out of hitstun, right now I just assume after the 2nd roll catch they'll try and hit me in the third and that habit is working pretty well but it has nothing to do with actual reads

[@iamamish]

Yeah that's exactly what I'm talking about. The habit though is a read! You made a read, and that unfortunately led to a habit. It's not a bad habit as it works most of the time. But you just need to recognize it so next time it starts happening, you can adjust. It also tells you a lot about your opponent.

[@coldhardjayard5424]

fight better players

[@MultiDraco999]

@@coldhardjayard5424 I'd have to download discord and I'd rather not

[@TojSlviny]

can you explain more about mixing up escapes? i didn't understand

[@bretth3216]

Nicely Done as Always

[@honestdog8583]

A key read that you showed early was the r1 catch into the quickstep

[@Angelprtzl]

Great advice as always but I sort of lost track of what you were saying after I noticed the gank you were fighting around halfway through the video were a spot on copy of the ninja turtles.

[@DS_DoggerX]

An advice on getting constantly read by your opponent: if you realize that you're getting baited often, swap weapons! Even if you swap to something you're less experienced with, you're at least switching up your strategy, and with it your habits. In fact, if you don't know what you're doing, your opponent sure as hell doesn't either. Jokes aside, consider the options you have that can switch up your opponent's prediction without changing your plan too harshly. Swap from a straight sword to a katana, for example. Your claymore getting read? Swap to a Murakumo. Your LKS getting read? Swap to a mace. Hell, even within the same weapon class there can be differences. Is your PKCS being predicted too often? Swap to a follower sabre. It's slower, but it makes a world of difference for your opponent. Of course, you can just stagger your r1s. But as you learn to bait with that, let yourself swap weapons! It's a good exercise to make your playstyle as unpredictable yet reliable as possible.

[@iamamish]

That's a solid idea. I've mentioned this before but when I play the really good players, I'll usually do pretty well for the first few fights. In fact, I'll sometimes win a few of the fights! But - as the fights progress, I start getting owned, and that to me is a clear sign that I'm way too predictable. I'm less predictable today but still predictable.

[@highvoltage7559]

A line of thinking that sometimes works for me is: What would make sense to do here? If our roles were reversed, what would be an optimal way to act right about now? Not that this always works since the most optimal strategy can sometimes be so obvious it becomes a bait in itself. And most of the time there are too many options anyway.

[@iamamish]

You've always read me exceedingly well, so that must be a good strategy. I'll have to try that out.

[@coldhardjayard5424]

you should only think of the obvious most optimal strategies when putting yourself in your opponent's shoes assuming both players are equally skilled. Don't overthink anything tho. In every situation you can either go defensive or offensive from neutral. Keep the amount of mental gymnastics you do at a minimum for fast paced games. If you've played traditional fighting games, you'll know that in those games you have to think quicker. Work smarter not harder

[@johnnytsunami7150]

No matter how old this game gets i still enkoy these lectures from amish. School is always in session

[@iamamish]

Your first assignment is to smash that like button

[@dengrofeid2024]

The most hard player to get good reads on is 2 weapons players. Estoc/straight sword becouse most of the time they don't roll they gonna attack you if u push

[@devinn4076]

Hey Amish, over the last few months I've gotten very fluent in hard swapping. At this point I almost never use the same weapon for more than a few attacks unless I'm being very efficiently ganked. Like I'll try to get the Sellsword combo off on someone, then immediately switch to claymore or something with more poise to throw them off for a min, then switch to washing pole for a running r1, then follower sabre WA, etc etc. I find that this makes it extremely hard for people to read what I'm doing most of the time.

[@iamamish]

i agree that frequent hard swapping can make people exceptionally difficult to read. However I think there are risks associated with that approach too, especially as you start fighting better players. People can get reads on when you're likely to hardswap. I think it is a complex topic and I would love to make a video about it sometime.

[@devinn4076]

@@iamamish wow I just had a shitty day at work, and saw this right as I was leaving. Made my day a bit better, thanks Amish. I think that would be a great topic for a video. I'll be looking forward to it brother. Welp, now that I'm home, it's ds3 time 😈

[@newt3k]

The ninja turtles what the fuck I love it.

[@eyesontheinsides]

Hell yeah great vid...especially the topic ;) It's funny because I once asked g9 what the first read he makes is, and he said "whether someone's a scrub or not," which I took as pithy at the time but I've come to see the reality of that comment, which is also a conclusion you reached. I still have a very difficult time switching out of reactive mode and not instantly reacting to every read I make. Any suggestions for how to try to change that?

[@iamamish]

You have to watch your own footage. For me, I noticed that I would get too defensive (say, when somebody got in my face with a cs). So I made the adaptation of swinging more when the other player had frame advantage. That forces them to reduce the number of mixups. Just making subtle changes, one at a time based on what you see. If you watch your own footage you'll notice things you missed before. Good luck and great video idea!

[@coldhardjayard5424]

great advice by g9 honestly, and good reply amish. I'd like to add that it depends on the matchup what you're allowed or not allowed to do. For instance, take the greatlance. A really well balanced weapon with a complete moveset. It has obvious flaws and not so obvious strengths which benefits the better, more knowledgeable player. In neutral, if you try to press a button, you die. With greatlance, it's really important to know what your opponent can or can't do otherwise you'll get mopped easily Know the matchup, and play to your weapon's strengths. Once you get that, you'll be able to react and read your opponent at the same time. Knowing the matchup means knowing your opponent's options. Limit their options if possible till you can get them to fall into your read. This assumes they have the will to fight tho. Versus overly passive players, you have to be more confident in your spacing and pressure them accordingly

[@masonyoung675]

So happy Amish is making videos again!

[@clognog8049]

ah yes the reads earned through experience, ive been able to tell when some one is probably going to hard swap.

[@iamamish]

Yeah but as I learned the hard way, experience isn't enough - you need experience and perception combined. The first few years I played, I didn't really improve that it was because I wasn't paying attention.

[@ergot4604]

hey Amish whats the song at 9:24?

[@erdnalickeroftoads2143]

TLDW: Be at least one step ahead of your opponent 👀

[@pretty_fly_for_a_jeskai]

Me: I'm gonna play another game Plays other game Me: I'm gonna play Dark Souls 3

[@Rukir]

whats the song at the beginning of the video?

[@beepist5000]

Hey Amish. I'm trying to pick up Crow Quills but haven't practiced backstab tech. What's the best way to practice backstab fishing? Duels, Ganking, or invasions???

[@Patches_Gaming]

Maybe ask a friend who's pretty good at back stab fishing to teach you, so definitely duels. Invading might be too hard because of ganks. That or bait a running attack and get the back stab from there.

[@iamamish]

Yeah I think Patches is on the right track. You probably need to start with a friend who knows the tech. Worst case, if you don't know somebody like that, start by working on the PVE. You can BS a lot of the enemies at HWOL. I created a video a few years ago that addresses starting out backstab fishing. Basically - fish the PVE until you have the mechanics down. Then, go to invasions where you get to practice the reads, and the latency management. If you don't have the basic pivot mechanic down first though, you'll suffer endless amounts of frustration. One tip - I would recommend starting with a 2h GS. If you use a rapier, a lot of players will except you to fish. When you're starting out you want them unaware as possible. Good luck! It is really rewarding.

[@symbolicjohnson7]

Watch some project goof vids on the matter.

[@SonnyJim173]

Is the follower the best option for a CS on strength builds?

[@iamamish]

I think Ghru might be a bit better, but it lacks the reach/WA of Follower's. Then again, Follower's is slower, so I'm not really sure.

[@lurkingRainbow]

@@iamamish fast cs step forward more so they are actually longer :)

[@iamamish]

@@lurkingRainbow say what? Are you telling me Ghru has further step and reach than Follower’s? I’ll feel pretty dumb if that’s the case, ngl

[@lurkingRainbow]

@@iamamish Fast cs animation steps forward significantly more. According to luso's tests ghru & sabre are the same length. There is also the fact that being faster allows you to move forward more before you r1 which effectively increases the range. obviously 1h sabre is longer

[@coldhardjayard5424]

@@iamamish lurking typically knows his stuff. Trustworthy guy for sure

[@sk8alldayification]

Murky is very easy to predict unless the player is actually skilled with it, which usually isn't the case

[@iamamish]

yup, staggered R1s and then you can roll the 3rd one. Good players see you do that and start the mix-ups

[@mikaj1462]

Good ol' quickstep-r1-repeat untill you get parried

[@xyl_Miasma]

Great material as always, can't wait to see your Elden Ring pvp videos. Are you going to dive directly into online play since premiere?

[@_MrBlack]

props to the nina turtles

[@Eternal-Seven]

Fast curved swords absolutely can be reaction rolled, but if you mix up your attack timing fatigue starts to set in and even great players will get comboed. Reads are much more important and viable at lower levels where you simply have more time to learn what your opponents are up to. I feel at higher level killing can often happen before you learn much about their play style, there spacing seems to just dominate, but you should still at least beware of what weapons/ tools opponents are using which you touched upon here. Most players are predictable, but when you start facing off against really good players the mind games become much more important and swaps/ remove weapon can quickly turn tables.

[@godFilo]

Your gameplay really changed over the years

[@chaoticaa2398]

Id have really liked to see “attacking” and “escaping” talked about in terms of frame advantage and frame disadvantage. Often it’s the same thing, but with certain matchups against poise, or once someone maybe goes for a rollcatch (an example would be gs vs spear. Even if the spear is r1 spamming, they lose frame advantage after r1 2 since the gs can get into HA. A sweatier example would be that a pk will often lose frame advantage after a running attack) frame advantage may fall into the hands of the escaper. Otherwise, love the video as always.

[@iamamish]

Yeah frame advantage would be a separate video I think, but I agree. It’s important.

[@SonnyJim173]

Question do the big armor sets like catarina, Wingknight and havel have a larger hitbox?

[@iamamish]

I do not believe so. I think this was tested pretty early on.

[@lurkingRainbow]

If it moves the position of the arms then it moves the hitbox of the arms. The difference is very small and should just be ignored.

[@coldhardjayard5424]

@@lurkingRainbow hi

[@coldhardjayard5424]

havel and winged knight have different idle positions for their arms. Havel makes the hitbox a bit skinnier than winged knight, but still bigger than typical armor. There's a video showcasing this, but you can just look at the arm positions in game to figure it out. As lurking said above me, the difference doesn't matter in a real fight

[@lurkingRainbow]

@@coldhardjayard5424 sup

[@ol3oo238]

Amish, your missing reads from neutral. Adjusting your spacing from neutral to counter your opponent, thats how you beat turn and burners. Like going in and out of there range to get them to whiff

[@iamamish]

Yup, and I actually addressed that (somewhat indirectly) in the video. I mentioned that it took me too long to adjust. It actually looks like it took me longer than it did, bc I just made a few spacing mistakes.

[@coldhardjayard5424]

I think you're over explaining the concept of pressing a single button 12:00 I do like the emphasis on getting to know your opponent, but at the 12 minute mark, you definitely lost me, and it just sounded like rambling. I understand the concept you're trying to make, but it just didn't come across well imo

[@iamamish]

I did ramble a bit there no question

[@clognog8049]

huh my name popped up for a while in this

[@iamamish]

What do you mean? Were you one of my opponents?

[@clognog8049]

@@iamamish at one point i invade but then return home, when you were fighting green people. would of stayed if i knew you were there. i was probably trying to snipe some one.

[@clognog8049]

@@iamamish at 7:23

[@iamamish]

@@clognog8049 Huh, I didn't even notice because of the way the game combines 'Faithful' with the user's name

[@clognog8049]

@@iamamish i did not either, but then some random person in my friend list sent me a message saying it.

[@tristanwest8125]

Good video Amish

[@asetanu1713]

What is a read? Why didn't u define the term, it made me guessing up until the first 8 minutes.

[@iamamish]

Any video has to decide what to cover, and to what extent. These videos are often defined as much by what gets left out than what goes in. In this specific case, ought I have clearly defined the term 'read'? Maybe. I've made similar mistakes before with not defining terminology, but then I usually get a fair bit of feedback about it. I haven't heard this question yet. Anyway, if it isn't clear, a read is just an understanding of what your opponent is going to do when confronted by a certain set of circumstances. For example, if somebody does a lot of rolling attacks, you might make a read that when you approach this player and they roll, they're going to do a rolling attack.

[@asetanu1713]

@@iamamish Thanks for explaining and making the content you are sharing .You could read my comment as a bit of constructive criticism. Your other videos are somewhat overly explaining, like the one about spacing, I just felt that was missing, especially because DS3 players already use a lot of insider terminology .

[@arthurcatisani]

30 fps readers vs 60 fps reacters!

[@coldhardjayard5424]

you can react on 30 fps

[@arthurcatisani]

@@coldhardjayard5424 no its mith!!! Just joking 😁

[@Swirleo]

Having played both, you can react, but 30fps is a lot less precise so it’s much harder to punish effectively.

[@arthurcatisani]

@@Swirleo danm dude, im your fan!!!! I also started in xbox😳

[@bhuwin6186]

G9 aint that good at normal play he is just sweaty weapon/ring swapper who spams gundry WA art spam from wep swap midway (fought him once and he did this 4 times lol) , you actually played the game legitimately and displayed actual viable tactics thanks

[@iamamish]

G9 is one of the best players in the world. I appreciate the kind words but long before the hard swap meta, Jee was winning tournaments against the best players in the world. Don’t let the swaps hide his skill.

[@bhuwin6186]

@@iamamish I dont know how things were back then but now weapon swapping into a surprise Gundry WA as a primary means of damage should not count as "Skilled play" or fair play IMO. Currently if this is his primary playing style in duels I strongly belive community should not learn from it and just take it as entertainment.

[@iamamish]

@@bhuwin6186 Swapping to Gundyr has quickly become part of the meta invasion tactics because it is so effective. I agree that by itself, it is not a huge reflection of skill (though knowing when to do it, and when not to do it takes more skill than may be immediately apparent). The main point though is that even if you took Gundyr swaps away from Jee, he'd still win most of his invasions & duels, and you can see this by watching his gameplay from a few years ago, before he started using hardswaps so aggressively. He's only gotten better since. His spacing is amazing, his reads are amazing, his knowledge of the game is exceptionally deep, etc.

[@b-rock8557]

First