disney animated villains, then vs. now

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[@ManCarryingThing]

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[@malaksafa4074]

First reply

[@wxguy.]

You never miss, you're an absolute legend!

[@KevEatsCheese]

legend the never misses he absolutes

[@kotterpike714]

Can't wait for Man Carrying Beer

[@man-throwing-thing]

the real merch was the men we carried along the way

[@MicahReviews]

The reason Man Carrying Thing made this video is because it advances his interests. Mainly money and power

[@ManCarryingThing]

no. i have a deep ideological motivation (money and power)

[@YourCapyBro_windows95_3DPipes]

He's building an army And wears a voice-concealing mask

[@carlsagan2371]

@@ManCarryingThing ....I'm putting together a team...

[@hoagie911]

Bounced on my boy's sympathetic villain to this

[@JasonJrake]

….and a distraction from his true motive, an excuse to sing.

[@manospondylus4896]

I thought it was gonna end with him saying “Oh yeah, and I also killed 20 babies”, because they always pull that kinda shit so you don’t sympathize with the villain’s motive too much

[@neighborhoodmusicsnob5517]

I like rereading these movies or shows or whatever as propaganda made by the in-creation universe after the fact. Like Daenerys never actually burned down King's Landing, and in fact was not traumatized by Magic Bells at all. She was actually alright and well intentioned but the whole story got spun after he assassination. With Jon being a convenient yet ignorant tool who "disappeared" north.

[@givlupi2686]

Everyone wants a realistic villain, no one wants a villain who might be right. (not counting obviously wrong villains who people latched onto)

[@Slukke]

it's like in Look Who's Back when they had hitler randomly shoot a dog for no reason

[@theratking9057]

​@@Slukkei feel like Hitler did some worse things than shoot a dog 😭

[@Badficwriter]

@@theratking9057 I think this is referring to a comedy film, not history.

[@SPACE_BOOOOOST]

We've had so many "complex and morally grey" villaints recently that at this point I welcome anyone who just wants to fuck shit up and look cool doing it.

[@jacobd1984]

We get a bunch of one dimensionally evil hammy villains, so people ask for complex morally grey villains, so we get a bunch of complex morally grey villains, so people ask for one dimensionally evil hammy villains, so we get a bunch of of them, so people ask.....

[@Nothingness4907]

@@jacobd1984 Solution, both can cohexist and enchance the other existence greatly

[@MaydupNem]

@@jacobd1984one dimensional evil ham villains are always better

[@notapplicable6985]

​@@MaydupNemNot really

[@FuzzymothGames]

have you seen puss in boots: the last wish

[@GLC48]

New Disney villains are basically just "I make reasonable points but Disney doesn't want the audience to side with me over the hero, so I also happen to commit unspeakable atrocities as a hobby even though I don't have to do so to achieve my goals."

[@arbitarious]

When Karlie from falcon and winter soldier blows up the building

[@user-xx6vy9ri8p]

​@@arbitarious Her points weren't reasonable to begin with, they just want stuff that was never theirs.

[@arbitarious]

@@user-xx6vy9ri8p eh

[@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr]

⁠@@arbitarious, Karlie, the Fireflies from Last of Us, Wanda in the current M-SHE-U films, etc etc are all terrorists, so either all terrorism is okay or no terrorism is okay, but you can’t be fine with “progressive” terrorists, and being against anarchy-capitalist terrorists or libertarian terrorists.

[@ArariaKAgelessTraveller]

Well they did exactly that but so badly in Movie 'Wish' Most people with working common sense would wonder if the MC is actually the Villain in the story

[@toasteethetoaster5978]

It turns out the thing man was carrying was complex ideology all along

[@MagusMirificus]

*schniff*

[@LaRavachole]

@@MagusMirificus *PURE* *IDEOLOGY*

[@drakep271]

Hit it boys The boys: 🐸🪕 🐸🎻

[@aaroncarlsback7239]

"I'm eeevil and I'm looovee iiit...! 🎶

[@TheOnlyBloke]

Lest we forget the against-the-grain motif of "I may be evil, but in trying to establish a credible threat for me to spar against after I defeated my heroic rival, I accidentally created someone way more evil than me, causing me to re-evaluate my perspective on the role I play within a wider society. On an unrelated note, I really like listening to George Thorogood's 1982 hit song 'Bad to the Bone'."

[@justradicles4337]

Lol, that's basically Megamind! Love the movie and the character!

[@TheOnlyBloke]

@@justradicles4337 Never heard of it. You sure this isn't just some kind of Mandelbrot effect?

[@farmerchuck7294]

@@TheOnlyBloke I think you mean the _mandela_ effect; You might be getting confused with the mandelbrot set, a mathematical fractal. Unless... how deep does this go exactly?

[@TheOnlyBloke]

@@farmerchuck7294 Pretty sure a 'mandela' is that metal thing that holds lots of candles.

[@gaminganimators7000]

​@@TheOnlyBlokeI thought a mandela was a really rich guy

[@MoskalMedia]

Being evil is one thing, but LOVING evil? That's how you know they are a villain!

[@wolfenden9805]

To be a super villian Either have an awesome presentation Or the super hero that's on the run or whatever

[@verti3213]

Disney makes shows for kids. They can only understand simple entertainment. "Loving evil" doesn't make fucking sense because nobody sees themselves as evil. Every horrible dictator or serial killer out there sees themselves as good guys. But again. It's entertainment for kids.

[@Alienrun]

@@piotrbojkoff Love the sinner, hate the sin. That's the distinction, it can be hard to miss...especially in irl as certain biases can cloud your judgement, but once that truth is accepted...it will set you free...trust me!"

[@C-Farsene_5]

I suddenly remember Lord Dominator from Wonder Over Yonder, also a Disney channel show but kinda underrated

[@ajoajoajoaj]

Hero fans when you root for the fictional antagonist:

[@balintvasvari7573]

You see, old-school animated villains sang about how they were motivated by greed and the ruthless pursuit of power. For example, in the Lion King, Simba singing _'I Just Can't Wait to Be King',_ where he explains that his only wish is to succeed as soon as possible, at the logical cost of his own father's untimely death

[@jessegonzales1530]

Y’know, you just made me realize how utterly DARK it would’ve been if instead of Be Prepared, Scar sang a dark reprise of I Just Can’t Wait to Be King

[@Wired4Life2]

@@jessegonzales1530 Jafar got to sing a dark reprise of “Prince Ali” as he hijacked the Genie against Aladdin.

[@aboutashow]

​@@jessegonzales1530*Hire this person right now.* Idk who. Someone.

[@davidwuhrer6704]

​@@Wired4Life2Jafar saved the kingdom from an usurper. Well, he tried, anyway.

[@user-xx6vy9ri8p]

Not necessarily death. When Mufasa becomes too old, he will give the throne to Simba and live the remaining days in peace.

[@atoucangirl]

"i'm a grey villain with a compelling motivation and actually have a point" "wow, that really makes me reconsider-" "anyways now i'm gonna do and say something blatantly evil that i have no reason to really be doing" "oh i'm definitely kicking your ass during the action climax now"

[@mr.dirtydan3338]

To me, Jinx from arcane was the perfect example of a sympathetic villain because you know it could have been so different and they could have actually been happy.

[@66Roses]

The evil king of Wish in the first 20 minutes: If I granted every request given to me, the chaos would be unimaginable. There are people out there who do not realize the harm they would cause by what they want. Sometimes I don't get to be the good guy. Protagonist of Wish: Then give those wishes back. People deserve to strive for what they want if you can't give it to them. The king: No, and by suggesting that you are a rebellious element against me, who is handsome and awesome. I'm now going to completely derail my own motivation and become _super_ evil for no adequately explored reason.

[@mlgamings6110]

I think Frollo from "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" was a villain that was different. He didn't see himself as evil even though he committed some of the worst atrocities of a Disney villain ever. And I wouldn't say he did it for power, but because he really thought he was doing it all for God. Really interesting character.

[@neighborhoodmusicsnob5517]

Nah he was a horny old guy.

[@AudieHolland]

Religious fanatics are In the original novel he just wanted to bang Esmeralda.

[@osheridan]

Pretty common type of person tbh

[@TheSongwritingCat]

That was actual moral complexity. Though I would argue the push for artistic credibility around Pocahontas and Hunchback was when things started to go off the rails. The newer movies are trying to have those nebulous goals but in movies for young children and the ideas are in tension. Where in the old movies you basically had adult animation.. and then talking gargoyles.

[@genericname2747]

Bro was evil in a realistic way.

[@gmenezesdea]

Giving complex motivation to someone who's literally named Cruella DeVill, and literally wants to kill a bunch of puppies to make a coat.

[@gooeydude574]

Gotta love when they completely miss what people liked about the character in the first place

[@Badficwriter]

The Nice Cruella movie feels like someone really wanted to make a silly movie about a rebellious fashion designer.

[@theMyRadiowasTaken]

​@@Badficwriterfeels like someone wanted to make a cool fashion movie but had to attach it to cruella for Reasons

[@user-xx6vy9ri8p]

​@@theMyRadiowasTaken because marketing.

[@theMyRadiowasTaken]

@@user-xx6vy9ri8p exactly

[@JakeJakers]

This skit shows something that's bothered me with modern Disney: the villains aren't "more complex and less evil", the heroes just aren't as morally strong. It's almost like the stories are more critical of it's protagonists than it's antagonists, regardless of what actually happens in the movie.

[@TheSongwritingCat]

I think there's some bleed over from Pixar of just having low stakes. The early Disney Renaissance movies were about monarchy. You were supposed to care about who occupied the throne. These new villains just want a little power or have more nebulous goals or confusing plans meanwhile the heroes are going through some internal struggle.

[@user-gp5yz5yz4x]

​​@@TheSongwritingCat if you think about it, that really connects everything together. Most Pixar movies, not unlike Magnifico, have pretty forgettable villains if they even bother because they're more about the protagonist than villain. There's only two exceptions; good villains in forgettable Pixar movies, and Syndrome

[@wave1090]

​@@user-gp5yz5yz4xRandall and Waternoose from Monsters Inc. are also pretty good villains. Pixar used to have memorable villains back in the day.

[@StrainOfThought]

@@user-gp5yz5yz4x Well, there was that happy child in Toy Story.

[@ileanaprofeanu7626]

why is this bothering you? such is life, we live in a world of gray. would you rather see useless fantasies

[@legometaworld2728]

I love how next to nobody seems to realize how regressive of an idea it is to make the villain have a great goal but still resort to unnecessary bloodshed and destruction to achieve it, with this being the only character who wants to achieve said goal and who the hero often still has to fight after finding this out.

[@Dysiode]

Pop Culture Detective's "Defenders of the Status Quo" explores this in detail. But, when you have an entire "hero" industrial complex dedicated to the sole purpose of maintain the status quo, you can expect there to be violence (yes, I'm talking about "law enforcement")

[@exotic1405]

It's usually down to the philosophy of the antagonist, which offers a more extreme solution to something most people would deem as an issue. When done wrong it's just plain stupidity on their end, but when done right it's a pretty good villain trope

[@AD-dg3zz]

Thanos: Has reasonable concerns about there being limited resources in the universe, but decides that the solution is to genocide half of all life. Heroes: Reverse Thanos' genocide and restore the status quo... but then the issue of limited resources is never brought up again.

[@astralseaslug546]

​​@@exotic1405 the problem isn't that this trope exists; it's that the corporations that own our stories want to paint activism and radical politics as villainous and terrifying. They benefit from capitalism, and indirectly from the other things that are wrong with society, so they're trying to replicate the red scare while tricking their viewers into feeling that they have progressive social sensibilities.

[@Sunnysideanyway]

Or a better idea, the villian fabricates a problem and calls for unnecessary destruction and violence for their own benefit.

[@uvbe]

"i am fighting for a good cause and also eat babies" -morally grey villains

[@davidwuhrer6704]

I eat babies for a good cause. The ends justify the means. - Batman, probably

[@SpaceChloe]

It's okay you can say Magneto

[@remliqa]

Do they HAVE to eat babies? I eman vampire protagonist can be tragic heroes , so...

[@journeytotheotherside]

When are you dropping a full length version of that villain song?

[@ManCarryingThing]

it is 11 minutes long and co-written by lin manual miranda (so never)

[@bbkangs]

@@ManCarryingThing Now Lin-Manuel Miranda is an absolute legend who only misses every now and then

[@MagmaRiver]

Unfortunately the full version is 80% James Corden

[@niccolorichter1488]

oh nooo...@@MagmaRiver

[@Wired4Life2]

Not until Man Carrying Thing seduces Will Smith Genie.

[@puffpuffpassmako]

This is why people loved Jack Horner from puss in boots so much. He was evil and not only knew it but he ENJOYED it and wasn't apologetic at all for it

[@noahculp9900]

Old Disney Villain: literal embodiment of evil, totally irredeemable but fun to watch and memorable. New Disney Villain: Not even a villain at all. Their plan is totally justifiable and sometimes even makes more sense than the hero but the writers added in a scene of them killing a child for no reason so we know they're supposed to be a villain

[@thebronzedragon1]

You may be right 'Now Villian' but only on the condition that none of those views contradict those of the Disney Corp or any of our overseas markets, assuming of course they cant be edited out for those markets.

[@shapular]

Slavery and genocide are bad (don't forget to edit this part out for China)

[@neighborhoodmusicsnob5517]

Those are usually not the parts that get edited out. Also you don't need to edit out messages in the US when the messages dont challenge anything to begin with. "Slavery and genocide are bad, but trying to stop that makes you even worse."

[@sanchorim8014]

​@@neighborhoodmusicsnob5517Which film says that? Or are you using that an example?

[@neighborhoodmusicsnob5517]

@@sanchorim8014 Game of Thrones comes to mind. As does the Hunger Games.

[@mr.dirtydan3338]

​@@shapularwhat?

[@jj947]

I can’t wait for Disney villains to start releasing multi hour video essays

[@Badficwriter]

That was my favorite bit about The Batman's Riddler. He was a video blogger nerd.

[@e.keough2975]

The fact that the song remains the same while the underlying story is different represents creative’s battle to imbue deeper meaning in their stories while executives cling to things that used to work, things that they view as more marketable and less risky.

[@shan4680]

Does it also save them money for not having to hire a new composer?

[@thespeedyyoshi]

As much as this is a joke, this is also true.

[@jj947]

_Starts Camera_ _Pours Drink_ _Sips and Shakes_ _Sighs and Inhales_ “…Capitalism”

[@alimations5226]

Or Man Carrying Thing thought it was funny

[@misterbobEA]

also it is a bop

[@mohireza1]

While I find your gimmicks of the old and current villains of Disney quite joyous, allow me to say that Plankton in the episode Plankton Shits and Dies, has proven to be a far better villain that anything Disney has ever produced

[@50Steaks68]

Plankton farts and dies***

[@elFulberto]

He was willing to die for what he did. What a legend.

[@abdul-rahman7606]

@@elFulbertohe was willing not just to die, but to fart, and that’s what makes his sacrifice so beautiful

[@aTerraxia]

Wouldn’t the fart be the villian?

[@MagicalSkyWizard]

I read this in Sensei La Dew’s voice

[@Jumbleman5]

Villains today make a good point about their motivations and then go "and now I'm going to kill these innocent people."

[@neighborhoodmusicsnob5517]

"It has to be done" literally why.

[@franciscobrisolladeoliveir9596]

@@neighborhoodmusicsnob5517 Because if not, then Plankton Farts And Dies 2 will not get uploaded

[@JohnEusebioToronto]

Disney heroes now are basically like comic super heroes; always saying shit like "you have good motives but you're too extreme in your methods, so I'm going to stop you and then maintain the status quo rather than doing anything to meaningfully change the systems of power!"

[@neighborhoodmusicsnob5517]

Always been the case. That's why the heroes of history are so often demonized as just wanting everybody dead while the villains are given sympathetic tragic backstories (ahem the poor artist Hitler, oh how sad /s)

[@AnimatedTerror]

I actually like the end of black panther (to use a superhero example) on its own (ignoring what other films did after the fact since the whole universe is a consistency mess) Black panther is about how a society was hoarding tech that could help people, a radicalized outsider with perspective the others didn’t have came and forced them to see this perspective before attempting to take that tech and give it to the masses in a way that would result in further conflict. It ends with the hero’s admitting that their society could and SHOULD help and so after the villain is killed (a villain they offered to save only to be turned down by said villain on principal) they decide that yeah he was right. So they go to the world and in a safer way attempt to integrate their tech. Black panther wasn’t perfect but it did what so many of these films try and fail to do. Have the villain be right ideologically but clearly in the wrong by their actions, still change the hero’s perspective and end with actual changes being made.

[@thecrispymaster]

This discussion kind of reminds me of the rather controversial end to the TV show Line of Duty, a British police drama following a team of anti-corruption officers. The ending annoyed a lot of people because I think they were expecting the reveal of the big bad masterminding everything and their takedown and the nice clean ending. What actually happened was that the villain of the series was someone most had dismissed as being a bit of an idiot and a bit player at most, and he'd basically fallen into working with the organised criminal gangs. The point the final series was trying to get across is that police corruption isn't down to some bad actors or some big bad who taking them down will cure the problem. The issue was the system that allowed people like this man to get positions of power, that allowed him to ascend the ranks despite a dubious level of competence and questionable behaviours over their career. It's not a system that goes out of its way to breed corruption, but one that values public perception of integrity over actually making sure that they clear out the rot, because visibility on that might make them "look bad". So instead they try to cover it up and handle everything away from public view, but this allows corruption to fester. I think this is much more true to life, but obviously doesn't make for as exciting a TV finale.

[@Badficwriter]

@@thecrispymaster Film bros are all for realism until its a metaphor movie, and then surrealism is cooler because you have "interrogate" the film, which makes the viewer a "co-creator" of the film's meaning rather than a passive observer, unless the meaning you decide is not what the film REALLY MEANS so your meaning is just dumb

[@Amambivertednerdwhocantdraw]

I mean, at least it beats that “twist” villain epidemic

[@MrRaui]

That was his mistake!

[@monsoon1303]

@@MrRaui IDK about you but I actually liked Yokai. Yes his twist was a total 180, but he narratively fit in the story and was a good foil to Hiro.

[@mollusckscramp4124]

@@MrRaui SHHHH you'll summon Schafrillas!!

[@fantasticbirdblue]

​@mollusckscramp4124 that was his stake!

[@erickpoorbaugh6728]

@@monsoon1303 IMO, the twist villains started out good; the problem was more that they proceeded to overdo it, to the point where you were asking, "Which helpful side character is going to be the villain *this* time." It's like a kid who does something funny, and then when he sees it makes people laugh, he keeps doing it to the point of annoyance. You can't just keep repeating something that succeeded the first couple times, especially something that only works if it's unexpected and has the right context.

[@Drawing_to_success]

Doofenshmirtz was and remains the only villain I will ever take seriously anyway

[@ryanbauer3680]

Hard to argue with the logic of a man who builds a fire breathing dragon mech and puts the cockpit in its mouth.

[@DuelaDent52]

Urgh, Magnifico was so frustrating. You can’t tease this tragic backstory that he’s clearly not faking that drives his motivations and actually have lines he won’t cross until he’s super desperate and then just treat him like any other classic Disney villain! It’d be like opening Robin Hood with Prince John lamenting the harsh taxation of Britain’s citizens to fund his brother’s crusades and then have him act like he usually does for the rest of the film anyway.

[@Yammenkow]

Then the writers realized that they made a villain who is too sympathetic and they make him kick a dog or something so we remember he's the bad guy.

[@medalion1390]

This is how I feel about the majority of MCU villains. “I have a legitimate gripe and a point of view that you can easily emphasize with… but I’m also going to now do a bunch of murders so that the main character is justified in having a big CGI fight with me.”

[@noobmasterruben5167]

Maybe thats why High Evolutionary was so refreshing because he's not sympathetic at all and you want the heroes to beat this guy

[@ibrahimihsan2090]

I haven't watched the MCU but judging by how Thanos is referred to as The Mad Titan in the comics and his goal is to decimate half of the population of every inhabited planet, I'd say he is among the better examples because, yes the problems exist but you are going way too far for any rational person to agree with you.

[@grackyeck]

@@ibrahimihsan2090In the comics, Thanos wasn't really trying to solve anything. Snapping half of the universe's inhabitants out of existence was pretty much purely an act of devotion to Death (the entity.) I can see how establishing that motivation in a way that connects with audiences would be difficult for the movies, but the half-baked "resource problem" they invented in place of it was a pretty weak alternative.

[@jahrusalem3658]

@@grackyeck I actually remember a video that spent like, 5 straight minutes poking holes in Thanos' plan. Which then brought me to the conclusion that MCU Thanos wasn't trying to help at all, he's just so arrogant and self-assured that his plan will work that he ignores all evidence to the contrary and does it anyway for his own satisfaction. MCU Thanos is arguably worse than Comic Thanos, at least that one's honest about being a monster.

[@BuiHieuDong]

The old villains might seem goofy sometimes but the nostalgic feeling they brought us is unmatched.

[@viewtiful1doubleokamihand253]

New villains would be nostalgic for the new generations.

[@cormano64]

@@viewtiful1doubleokamihand253 *will be

[@viewtiful1doubleokamihand253]

@@cormano64 as a Ukrainian I completely agree.

[@aspectreishauntingeurope]

Omg what are you doing under every single video

[@Mediados]

Villains are allowed to be goofy sometimes as long as it doesn't make them look like absolute morons. But more than anything, a strong and clear motivation is important.

[@ronaldo19ronaldo]

'I love that the writer makes the bad guy, just pure evil with selfish motive, instead of those idealistic morally-ambiguous villains." I started to see a comment like this lately. But to be fair, two decades from now, it will come back to full circle again.

[@Dysiode]

Pop Culture Detective's "Defenders of the Status Quo" does a breathtaking job of exploring the "Now" villains within the context of the MCU. And then Man Carrying Things goes and distils it to it's simplest form, the absolute legend

[@Buenomars]

Meanwhile, Dreamworks animated villain: "I'm death, straight up." 🐺

[@gracegrrl007]

Meanwhile, Dreamworks animated villain: "I wanna be in power forever and this soothsayer said I might get overthrown by a panda one day so let's just commit genocide just in case. that'll totally make my parents love me!"

[@cooperminion825]

​@@gracegrrl007and Disney execs wonder why more and more people are flocking to Dreamworks movies

[@shinymetagross1666]

@@gracegrrl007 Meanwhile, Dreamworks animated villain, from the same movie as the first example: "I want all the magic in the world. For me, and no one else gets any."

[@ibrahimihsan2090]

Except that is just what he is. He isn't even completely villainous because we all will face Death. Basically, he is inevitable.

[@clairetellkamp6253]

Except death wasn't just evil in that movie

[@Alex-cw3rz]

Don't forget that there tragic backstop where they were actually good but they were turned bad by something quite innocuous or quite harmful but you are still baffled why they then went evil after that.

[@sammarrese-wheeler3308]

"I'm evil and I love it" is actually my favorite Disney song. I'm so glad you included it in the vid!

[@wekashipo7507]

The real modern Disney villain is generational trauma.

[@DanielGreeneReviews]

I ordered my man carrying thing merch and immediately my dad hugged me for the first time.

[@jacobd1984]

i know this guy!

[@ManCarryingThing]

this is 100% true

[@4546Bean]

@@ManCarryingThingI ordered it and my dad finally came back with the milk

[@YourCapyBro_windows95_3DPipes]

Coincidence?!?! I think not.

[@TheMoFauxs]

Disney: Let’s make our villain grey to show the complexity and nuance of ethical behavior. 6yo kid: Fast forward to the song.

[@man-throwing-thing]

He's never motivated by power nor acquisitions of wealth, but by a a steadfast belief in a cause, in a faith, that one day the world may not be so cruel, so hateful, so unjust, the absolute legend!

[@tomerhendel3975]

probably the only instance of this joke format that actually made me laugh

[@wilsonsanabia4259]

He never fails!

[@zacharynguyen7286]

hope everyone doing good and staying safe. If you need to talk to someone or need help, there are people who care. Sending support and hearts. ❤❤❤

[@LangstonDev]

Ya got me

[@gryffindorftw6198]

Almost every Naruto villain ever.😂

[@mafiacat88]

I feel like the two villains I love are A) The ones who are *evil* and are having a blast B) The complex morally grey ones that are actually complex and morally grey (but this is hard to do) I do not enjoy the "morally grey" ones that are fighting to solve problems but then like, bomb an orphanage. Why. Then you get this weird situation where your hero either has to eventually see the side of the kid killers, or fight against a group that's against like, slavery or something.

[@davidwuhrer6704]

I think it's interesting when the hero is actually the bad guy and doesn't realise it. There is no reason for the villain to kick the puppy, he doesn't even need to antagonise the hero. It is enough that the hero feels threatened by him, and for the story to be told from the perspective of the hero.

[@phabiorules]

I don’t think there is a problem with the hero seeing the side of the child killers, so long as they come to the conclusion that maybe killing children is wrong. Black Panther worked because T’Challa realized that Africans and their descendants were being oppressed around the world. However, instead of creating a world war, Tchalla decided to make Wakanda more involved in national politics and use their power and influence to ease oppression.

[@horusreloaded6387]

There is this game, Remember Me, where you play as someone with amnesia where everyone else knows you. You fight against one dimensional villians and also help demolish a dam and kill thousands of civilians, which the guy who gives you directions justifies as "they were rich anyways."

[@naturesquad9174]

@@phabiorules Black Panther's conflict felt like it was copypasted from a 70s neonazi "race war" screed.

[@Natezo]

I think this is why Big Jack Horner was so fun to watch in the new Puss in Boots movie, that mofo was just evil, and it was so fun to watch him be the worst person ever

[@SoshiTheYoshi]

When are we getting an album release of “I’m evil and I love it”?

[@ManCarryingThing]

its already top of the charts

[@MoikaloopTV]

Full version of "I'm evil and I love it" now please. Thank you

[@MoikaloopTV]

I will animate it for free, or exposure

[@Jason_Bryant]

For awhile, I thought the second one was more realistic. These days, I'm seeing a lot of realism in the first one. Sometimes the bad guys just aren't that deep.

[@daftoptimist]

I need y’all to stop sleeping on this comment. It’s so right

[@moosesues8887]

And sometimes they are deep and there’s nothing wrong with either

[@filipmaly6603]

The problem with evil is that nobody believes he is evil. Hitler, Stalin, Chinggis Khan, Jefferson Davies would totally explain to you why thez are right and their actions justify.

[@yommish]

the banality of evil

[@KeyleeTamirian]

"Sometimes the bad guys just aren't that deep" ...As a person who's giving mental help to a woman who has social issues, as in she's just doesn't believe in anyone, always paranoid of them harming her and she tries to fit in with society by doing what others expect of her... or rather, what she thinks others expect of her. And she's full of apathy, fearing that by showing kindness she would get betrayed. And so... she sometimes really acts like a complete villain. TL;DR. Sometimes a stereotypical "I'm evil because i love being evil" is even deeper than shallow "I'm not evil, you just think that i am". Because a person might be completely mentally broken, along with mental illness. And i want those people to get mental help. Portraying those people as villains in stories alienates people more from those poor souls.

[@Frenchaboo]

The funniest part about Disney fumbling the new villain is that they already had a cool villainous design that worked with neon green magic and all, then they made him look like Chris Pine, the least villainous Prince Charming Captain Kirk looking mf on the planet

[@Alex-cw3rz]

This reminded me of the Poirot sketch from Mitchell and Webb, where he knows he's found the k iller once they do the evil voice and suddenly become sexier.

[@RoseAbrams]

"I'm evil and I love it" is absolutely the best Disney song ever made, i still vividly remember how all the kids could sing it back in gradeschool Disney never misses, the absolute legend

[@SodiumWage]

Dark Helmet: "Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."

[@sdtrawick]

I knew the song was coming a second time, but I still laughed when it happened.

[@InAHollowTree]

Plus The frog “band” 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@phrophannus]

Can't wait for his origin story where he ends as the hero and we still have no idea why he became evil at all.

[@neighborhoodmusicsnob5517]

Origin story 2!

[@davidwuhrer6704]

I mean, why can't the villain be the hero of his own story? It's just a matter of perspective anyway. Usually the hero is the hero because he succeeds against all odds against someone who worked hard to get where they are. (Either you die a hero or … Yes, it's been done.) So the only thing that distinguishes the hero from the villain is who is currently winning when the credits roll. (When you think about it, they are all pretty evil, putting their own goals ahead of everyone else. You just sympathise with the side from whose perspective the story is told.)

[@LillyAnarkitty]

“I’m evil and I love it” shall be the slogan of the revolution

[@davidwuhrer6704]

Finally, a revolution I can dance to!

[@TheCatWatches]

Dear Movies, bring back classic movie villains who loved being evil and dressed in black sporting a Dracula cape

[@davidwuhrer6704]

Making people immortal is evil because …

[@mixstardust429]

It'd be great to have the hero and supposed villain actually team up against the system that is objectively broken at some point, and boom, we finally actually don't walk around the moral complexity of the situation, hell you could even make a split between the two, unwillingly being in each other's way during the movie, teaming up early but after winning realising that their ideals are still opposing and the villain being ruthless, brutal, decides to murder the hero.

[@mixstardust429]

You can get everything you want, you can have an absolute evil, you can have moral complexity, and you can even have a story that involves the system that made the need for a hero and villain even a thing. It isn't actually hard to outline.

[@ImieNazwiskoOK]

Kinda reminded me of Matrix but that case was kinda the other way around

[@davidwuhrer6704]

Stalin and Trotsky? Sounds like a buddy cop movie. I'd watch it, but it doesn't seem like something Disney would like to release. Going against the obviously broken system? Do we want to encourage more Tyler Durden wannabes?

[@kevinalexander4946]

The absolute legend, he never Wishes!

[@jakobeboah1]

he always misses, the absolute villain!

[@manperson6354]

We should start caling the trope something like "The 3rd Act Bomb" where the villain, who so far has morally grey and interesting beliefs throws all of it down the toilet by doing something objectivly evil and destructive which also leads to their character bombing as well.

[@emblemblade9245]

The last part sounds like a YMMV reaction but I agree, this feels like a tangible trope

[@Yuorai]

Or "The Killmonger"

[@Badficwriter]

@@Yuorai I didn't think Killmonger bombed as character. He was frustratingly damaged.

[@Yuorai]

@@Badficwriter He didn't bombed, it's just that his views changed drastically out of nowhere. He was justified on his points that until then were: - Racism bad - Wakanda could've made black people lives better by not being isolationists - He disagreed with T'Challa and won the fight for the throne fair and square. But by the ending bro just went like: - Man I think we should nuke them american fuckers

[@rasengdori13]

Wish is the epitome of Disney wanting to have its cake and eat it too.

[@Misadventures_85]

ooh.. how so? details please

[@ShinGallon]

"My motivations are actually reasonable and sympathetic but achieving my goals would upset the status quo so I'd better kick this orphaned puppy so the audience knows I'm The Villain"

[@viewtiful1doubleokamihand253]

Villain songs are the best, I especially love that one from Disney's live-action remake of "Silence of the Lambs", Dr. Lecter's "Fava beans" song.

[@gracegrrl007]

my favorite part of this comment is the implication that the original silence of the lambs was not live-action thank you for inventing comedy just for us 😌

[@viewtiful1doubleokamihand253]

@@gracegrrl007 I had ta pull some things out of my arse. Although sir Anthony Hopkins sure is acting a bit like a cartoon at points. Which is just absolutely great and I love it.

[@meris8486]

This is how Jack Horner managed to be such a breath of fresh air

[@deconstructing7307]

Wait, a supervillain theme song, branding, AND a merch drop? Run! He's drunk with power! Also, someone in line at the UPS store just farted twice, exactly like plankton. We all just pretended nothing happened.

[@mykal4779]

thanks disney for teaching us that believing a better world is possible is the truest evil there is

[@sharkymcshark3392]

Say what you want about all the other old Disney villains, but Frollo from Hunchback of Notre Dame is an extremely complex and disturbing villain for a kid’s movie.

[@arekusu.]

Hands down best Disney movie imo

[@vullord666]

Pro tip: If you have to go the convulted route of turning a 3 dimensional character with a potential interesting foil to the main character into a flat cardboard cutout with "magic" then I promise you it's not worse to just go the "childish" route of bad guy = evil.

[@erickpoorbaugh6728]

Fiction---especially stuff like Disney movies---doesn't have to be nuanced or morally gray. There's a reason fairy tales and folk tales traditionally had villains who were outright evil. And there's a reason why the classic Disney villains are so well-remembered and well-liked. Sometimes, it's fun to just have a clear force of evil that the heroes can oppose without wondering who's in the right. Even assuming that the morally gray villains are more realistic (which isn't necessarily true), realism isn't always preferable anyway. For example, do we want a movie where the teenage protagonist reports the situation to his parents, who report it to the police, who deal with the villain offscreen while the protagonist stays home playing video games? That would be far more realistic than a teenager defeating the villain himself, but it wouldn't exactly make for good fiction.

[@thirdcoinedge]

That really gets to the heart of the problem. It's not that you can't have "complex villain" and "hammily cruel villain" in the same character, but you have to put in the work to transition from the former to the latter. Otherwise, it's just going to be jarring, and you're better off choosing either one or the other. Tl;dr it takes good writing to do this well.

[@noobmasterruben5167]

Magnifico deserved a redemption arc like Gabby Gabby did

[@KeyleeTamirian]

"You can't have complex villain and hammy cruel villain in the same character" Donquixote Doflamingo is a good counter-point to your arguement.

[@AntiC7]

​@@KeyleeTamiriandoffy is psicopata

[@sernoddicusthegallant6986]

More accurately modern villains are like: "Im not motivated by power nor acquisitions of wealth, but by a a steadfast belief in a cause, in a faith, that one day the world may not be so cruel, so hateful, so unjust" "My dude you are trying to burn down a kitten orphanage, how does that help" "THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS"

[@OrchidAlloy]

This video teaches you that having a good cause doesn't mean you can't do evil things. Truly deep, thanks Man Carrying Thing.

[@MST3James]

They can make villains as multifaceted as they want, but sometimes just being evil and loving it makes them more fun as villains. 🤷‍♂️

[@verti3213]

For kids

[@elishafollet5347]

​@@verti3213nah the same morally grey villain shtick gets boring after a while even as an adult, some times it's pretty fun to have something simple after a while

[@verti3213]

@@elishafollet5347 Full fledged living beings never get boring because they are relatable and varied. There are simple antagonists but I expect them to at least feel living and not as robots made to perform very certain motions. As a kid I enjoyed cartoons because I didn't know better but today nostalgia will keep me watching them only so much. American comedies fun from time to time get old fast because there is only so much dick jokes that I can stomach.

[@TacticalHatchet]

I really wanna see a villain that manages to be somewhere in between these two points, a villain who knows he's seen as evil and doesn't care, but you feel he legitimately has no reason to care.

[@Sunnysideanyway]

Both types of villians can be good.

[@thewestisthebest6608]

You forgot the part where the sympathetic villain commits an unjustifiable war crime for almost no reason

[@fantasticbirdblue]

* The girl from Falcon and the winter soldier

[@theflickchick9850]

I dunno if this is about Wish but if it is, Magnifico was like a weird hybrid between the two? Literally, I was so down with Magnifico being evil and stealing souls and then he got all that magic for literally no reason other than power and I found myself actually BEGGING him to monologue.

[@givlupi2686]

One thing I never see with morally grey villains is the heroes having to question their own beliefs, or prove why the villain is wrong. You'd think that would be pretty natural.

[@Badficwriter]

I'm sure I've seen it. Hero points at the destruction that changing the status quo creates and goes, "This is your better world?" Villain explains you have to break an egg to create an omelet, end justifies the means, et cetera. End of show, the hero makes speech about doing it slower so fewer people die, does some symbolic thing, roll credits. Thats the classic story. Cutting corners and insincere writing screw up a lot of morality plays lately.

[@davidwuhrer6704]

Spiderman 3 almost did that, but then Sony crammed Venom in there and made him a villain.

[@shinymetagross1666]

@@Badficwriter I wouldn't even really consider that a morally grey villain. That's just an asshole who kind of has a point.

[@thecataclysman]

That's the best evil theme I've ever heard, even better than the Imperial March

[@mickeyveach3612]

Theres also the fact that alot of "villains" lately are well meaning parents or people with generational trauma (Encanto, Turning Red, Luca, Raya, Coco).

[@ClaudetteVioletta]

I Mean, that's better than a Wannabe villain that it's actually not the villain Or the twist villain

[@mickeyveach3612]

@@ClaudetteVioletta case by case scenario for me.

[@KMO325]

So what you’re saying is in the Disney-cut of Plankton Farts and Dies he is more of an anti-villain/hero? Absolute master-legend!

[@davidwuhrer6704]

Plankton has a tragic back-story. On the one side you have Mr Krabs who loves nothing more than money and power, and on the other you have a small business owner who values each and every of his customers. And somehow Plankton is still the bad guy.

[@jessegonzales1530]

Tfw you realize Ken from the new Barbie movie is a better sympathetic Disney villain than modern Disney villains WITH HIS OWN SHOWSTOPPING SONG ON TOP OF IT

[@azurewraith2585]

the desire for morally complex villains has weirdly devolved from "the desires of the villain should have some form of internal justification and hold up under scrutiny" to "all villains need to be misunderstood victims who deserve redemption despite personally murdering every child in Ohio"

[@shinymetagross1666]

Funnily enough, one of my favorite morally grey villains fits both of those criteria. He's responsible for entire worlds of people dying in order to achieve his goal, yet through a combination of charisma, a sympathetic motive, and a perfectly understandable explanation for how he sees himself as the hero, he manages to remain sympathetic.

[@captaincalamity4909]

He never misses, the absolute legend!

[@bernebelmont1857]

I cant believe Man Carrying Thing was able to hire the frogs from Meet the Robinsons

[@mrmastergrimmbo]

Villain: I believe that I can build a perfect utopia without the pain of poverty or unjust hatred! Villain: also I’m slightly frustrated that nobody respects me Protagonist: SLIGHTLY FRUSTRATED?! OH YOURE GOING DOWN BAD GUY!

[@milicadiy]

It's okay. You can say King Magnifico.

[@jordanetherington1922]

You forgot the part where the villain then commits an arbitrary atrocity to keep them from being too sympathetic

[@flubbajubb4958]

People seem to have forgotten that either of these archetypes can still make for fantastically well-done villains, there's just been less of them recently

[@GomesGabriel84]

It's the pause before the last line that got me. The Man deserves to carry an oscar award.

[@piegirl8263]

When you believe in a cause but you also have a cool villain song idea

[@samclayton628]

How did everybody in Hollywood completely miss why Killmonger was a good villain

[@arbitarious]

I'm kinda stupid. Why was he a good villain? /genq

[@DrakeBarrow]

@@arbitarious AFAIK the consensus is he's a good villain because he has legitimate complaints and points out actual problems but his proposed solutions are so monstrous that he needs to be stopped. He was fairly complex and you could understand why he felt the way he did while also understanding why T'Challa had to stop him.

[@arbitarious]

@@DrakeBarrow oh ok

[@elishafollet5347]

​@@DrakeBarrowplus he made black panther legitimately question his views and legitimately convinced him to change his mind by introducing vibranium to the world along with wakanda tech I think

[@jessegonzales1530]

While I absolutely prefer the fun and gay Disney villains of the 90’s I think it’s not talked about enough how Disney is just SO stuck in their ways and trying to mimic past successes, that lately they’ve never once thought to just, I don’t know, write an interesting/entertaining character that just HAPPENS to be the villain. You look at other pieces of media like books and movies and antagonists come in all shapes and sizes, some complex and some just fun, less of a morally grey vs pure evil thing and more a WIIIDE spectrum of possibilities. Why do animated Disney films put themselves in such a small box? It’s like the predictable adorkable protagonist thing they’ve run into the ground but arguably worse

[@kunaikai]

The hero’s response “I still can’t let you get away with this. Cause you were slightly too extreme even though the status quo established in the film is worse”

[@davidwuhrer6704]

I can't let you get away with it because then I'd have to admit that I'm completely useless and only getting in everyone's way.

[@gordonfeetman5306]

evil is GOOD!!

[@Hanoua2]

Before: I'm evil and I enjoy it Now: I'm evil because someone was mean to me once

[@Mopark25]

Giving villains depth is always a good thing, but when you try to make them relatable it just becomes all the more jarring that they would resort to their evil plans. Like Killmonger in Black Panther.

[@neighborhoodmusicsnob5517]

Kilmonger was 1000% the good guys. They just added eeeeevil in there to scare audiences. "Oooh black liberation actually means black supremacy" nonsense.

[@eatatjoes6751]

...and King Magnifico is like, some Frankenstein monster of the two.

[@DarthTofu2]

“What is your evil goal?” “I seek to dismantle the systemic issues that hurt me and the people I love in my tragic backstory so that no one else has to endure such pain.” “Okay, but like…. You’re the bad guy, sooooo….” “Oh, yeah. And I’m gonna punch this old woman to death with her favorite kitten to accomplish that.” “There were go. Avengers! Status Quo maintainin’ time!”

[@davidwuhrer6704]

You sly dog! You got him monologuing!

[@albertskoften1452]

Y'know, Bing Frogsby was such a cool villain back in the '80s. I especially liked the scene when he tried to boil Dennis in a giant saxophone while singing about cigars. And while it's nice to see him return in the 2023 sequel, I must say he seems like a different person after having returned from that communist artist retreat. I hope we get a midquel to explain his arc.

[@Nothingness4907]

I really hate so much how nowdays a Villain MUST be this kind of sympathetic almost understandable figure from the tragic past to be perceived as "Good" While they're definetly interesting and give You a lot to think about real life has people who are scum and don't have any of these, complex thinking come after understanding the simple one, they can't exist on their own without the other and work as well You can't focus only on the complicated matter and ignore the simpler but equally as true stuff It's kinda why an Evil Superman works when You knew of a good Superman for such a long time, You see this really good natured person who wouldn't harm anyone despite his immense power cause of his moral integrity, and then You give a look at how a person with the same exact powers could generate tragedies and disaster if it wasn't controlled It's why people are sick of seeing Evil Superman representation over and over and not the wholesome good natured Clark Kent It's not a bad idea per se or as a thing on its own, but the effects are so much better when both cohexist In this case You can't fully understand how meaningful a complex and understandable villain is if You have JUST complex and understandable villains, first You have to see and learn what's good and what's bad in a simplier way, and then You can get challenged with more "difficult" ones, while still not forgetting where You started

[@Badficwriter]

I think the recent Puss n Boots film managed it. Felt so bad for the cricket trying to be a good conscience..😄

[@davidwuhrer6704]

​@@BadficwriterI didn't. Who did the cricket think he was, telling other people how to behave? He had it coming. I felt bad for the Baker's Dozen. Those working conditions were murder.

[@verti3213]

Good and evil are relative. Hence movies for adults people are just people. Meanwhile for kids complex villains are too much hence you get infantile but entertaining movie addressed for core audience and there is nothing bad with it

[@Nothingness4907]

@@verti3213 Nah, there is definetly space for subjectivity in good and evil but You must know when to draw the line Even for adults And there are definitely evil people out there and Adults know of that too

[@verti3213]

@@Nothingness4907 It would be incredibly joyus occasion should ethics were objective, inherent property of natural law rather than abstract idea in people's heads. Unfortunately they are subject to change from era to era, culture, age, etc etc. Of course adults know there are evil people out there but it's never us. Evil people are always somebody other :P. Only in Disney Cartoon villains sing "I'm evil and I love it!"

[@CatalepticHunter]

Metagame: Disney getting fans to empathize with villains so they'll feel more comfortable with still being Disney fans.

[@ahorrell]

Man, you're gonna carry that thing, carry that thing, a long time.

[@nerd26373]

We appreciate your analysis on this topic. You'll always have our support.