Dissecting a Tormach 1500MX

[@ReiniGrauer]

What a massive improvement from their earlier machines.

[@AudacityMicro]

No kidding, HUGE upgrade

[@dronelabs556]

Really good video! Tormach owes you for this.

[@AudacityMicro]

I wouldn't say no to a 1500mx if they offered 🤣 But I had a ton of fun up there. I learned a lot, and got to hang out with a friend (Norman) that I normally only interact with via internet.

[@dronelabs556]

@@AudacityMicro well you do have better, higher end machines so that is understandable. But an IOU from tormach is always a good thing. Plus maybe not a mill, but the robot arm looks like a cool entry point, for automation projects. Can’t turn that down if offered. 😂

[@AudacityMicro]

They already said no to the arm 🤣 I do have at least one, maybe two really in depth videos about the arm coming too. I spent two days up there, and I have a TON of footage to work my way through

[@dronelabs556]

@@AudacityMicro awesome man looking forward to it!

[@yelims20]

Thank you for your efforts! It's nice to see "under the hood".

[@AudacityMicro]

In retrospect I probably should have finished the video where we made parts on the mill first, but that one was a little more scattered, and harder to edit.

[@robertfontaine3650]

I can't afford this but it's pretty amazing how affordable this machine is.

[@billstrahan4791]

Mine arrives next week. So excited.

[@AudacityMicro]

Awesome!!!!

[@zacharykarr]

Can't wait for more videos! People who bring the cost into this I don't think are exactly the demographic, this is about the best you can get on single phase in your garage. (converters be damned)

[@AudacityMicro]

Cost is a real concern, but I think the people who compare it to other machines are definitely not the right market. The "I can get a used VF6 for that price" people are just a little bit out of touch from reality. I have about 8 hours of footage to work through. I think it'll end up at three or four videos at ~45 minutes each. And I plan on doing a "directors cut" that's everything in one long video plus all of the other stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else.

[@rocketperson44]

This is fantastic! A very specific and weird question you may be able to help with having seen the machine up close: How much wire slack is there in between the electrical cabinet and the base of the cable chain, and if it's not much, how simple do you think extending them would be? I am looking to get a machine, and have a very low ceiling in a tuck-under garage, which is frustratingly close to fitting 3 different machines in this class. The newest MiniMill is about 2 inches taller than the subfloor, even if you put the spindle head in between joists. The Syil X7, with its cable chain slotted besides the spindle head, is 1/2" too wide to fit between joists. Boxing out joists has been vetoed by co-owners of the home. 1100MX feels a little light for what I want to do with it, OMs are hard to find used with the options I'd like, and new CMs are a bit out of my price range. The tormach 1500MX WOULD fit absolutely perfect....except that they made the choice to orient the cable chain at 90 degrees relative to the machine. I've been trying to figure out how viable it would be to modify the machine such that the cable chain runs oriented inline with the Y axis like most other mills, as this is pretty much the singular dealbreaker. This is the first time I've been able to see the back of the spindle head, and it's VERY encouraging to see that it's basically mounted into open empty space, and that all the cables need to do a 90 degree bend anyways to get to where they're going. Looking to get a clearer picture of how viable the mods would be at the electrical box end. Fine with modifying things mechanically, somewhat sketched out by swapping out a bunch of electrical stuff on a brand new machine if it takes that. The word from Tormach support has been boilerplate language about how they aren't able to officially support modifying the machine this way without voiding warranty, and vague noncommittal answers about if it's technically feasible at all. But I want to know about the practical viability from the perspective of someone very unafraid to void warranties and do sketchy things that work, like your woven zip tie air line cable chain extension on your OM

[@mapstardamo1624]

I was thinking the same about the cable chain. Why did they decide to put it that way?

[@TormachTechnicalSupport]

@rocketperson44 Discussions of machine modifications are outside the scope of our support, buuuut I can be convinced to indulge my inner tinkerer a little bit now and again. Designing the base machine for an 8 ft ceiling was a hard requirement so having a vertically oriented cable chain above the headstock sheet metal like the previous MX's was not an option and every design of a recessed vertical cable chain we looked at required several more sheet metal panels and longer cable lengths that added cost to machines. If we had put the cable chain along the Y axis we would we increasing the footprint of every single machine for the sake of the cable chain alone. There would also be additional cost increase to every machine from the additional cable length to the start of the cable chain and sheet metal to support the section hanging off the column when at bottom of Z travel. The top of the electrical cabinet provided a convenient location to place the cable chain with built-in support. Multiple customers *have* purchased 1500's without the coolant tank due to space requirements so there is data to show that the additional space requirement is not an obstacle only in theory, but is in practice. There is very little extra cable length, maybe an inch or two (no need to pay for cable length we aren't making use of). Don't try to extend the servo cables. Just.... don't. The likelihood of intermittent issues with the motor or encoder is significant and there'd be a false economy in lengthening the cables vs purchasing longer cables, which would be a standard item you could get from Inovance. I don't envy your position but I think that the difficulty in finding a machine to suit your location shows that it is a very niche set of requirements that fall outside of typical installation environments. -Norman

[@frogtownmfg]

Appreciate the footage. The in-depth video is great. I will be getting a new mill soon and the 1500mx is at the top of my list. I have been waiting on more videos of this thing in action. I assume with absolute encoders its pretty accurate and repeatable. The tool change speed looks fine for me, onesy twosy xometry stuff.

[@AudacityMicro]

I have a video coming out on Friday, just showing the machine cutting. No voiceover, no music, just cutting noises. I'll have a long form video with all the bells and whistles a few days after that.

[@mapstardamo1624]

Would've liked to see it with the z axis cover off. Could then see how easy the draw bar actuator is to remove to bring the height down for fitting through a low (7ft) garage door

[@AudacityMicro]

I know, I regret not doing that. It was my fault, I was tired after two really long days, and i still had a 7 hour drive home. It's annoying to remove the cover off my haas, and figured this would be the same. Sooo I flaked out.

[@mapstardamo1624]

Btw many thanks for your videos

[@TormachTechnicalSupport]

If you remove all of the headstock sheet metal (no need to remove the PDB cylinder) you can get under 7ft. There is no official documentation or support for removing the headstock sheet metal, though. -Norman

[@mapstardamo1624]

When will these be available in the uk

[@michaelkelly3158]

Looks like a cool machine, but they are positioned so awkwardly in terms of pricing. For a little more, you can have a Haas, and for around the same price, a Syil. I'm not a fan of Syil for personal reasons, but I have to admit their machines are nice. With Haas, you have excellent customer support (at least in the UK) - and yes, this can be pricey, but at least you are protected. This machine looks well built, but it does look light-duty compared to the Mini Mill. Especially compared to the new Mini Mill, which has a fully cast frame as opposed to the steel bottom which mine has. I do like the levelling system, and the epoxy granite though - that's excellent! I'm not sure what Tormach's customer service is like now, but historically there have been some not so nice stories. I don't think it's fair to put that on them now if it's improved though!

[@AudacityMicro]

I think the awkward pricing is really just because they found a good gap in the market. There machines on both sides that can make sense in different applications. The Syil is a better value, at the cost of parts and support. Haas has probably the best support system in the industry, but the machines are a little too industrial for some people. A minimill is ~$15K on paper, which is already 30% more expensive, but when you add rigging, more expensive tool holders, a phase converter, more expensive work holding, etc, it's more like 50% more expensive.

[@sansbury95]

@@AudacityMicro The Tormach is also almost 10K cheaper to add a 4th axis.

[@viknives]

I hope they have done an upgrade on the ATC. The 440s ATC is not the best. I see it still have the plastic forks that eventually bend and fail. What do you think? Thank you for the great video

[@justRD1]

dudes pretty chill. seems like a pretty cool bunch.

[@AudacityMicro]

Yeah, norman is an awesome guy. And this is literally how the whole place was the entire time I was there. Everyone just did their own thing, no one was really supervising anyone. If an employee just wanted to go work on a pet project for a while, it wasn't an issue. It's by far the best workplace I've ever seen.

[@bluerider0988]

Yup!

[@EZ_shop]

That was great!

[@AudacityMicro]

Thanks!

[@sansbury95]

Sorry for giving you grief on another post, this is a good video and appreciate the thorough walkthrough. I'm planning a purchase in the fall and haven't seen much about this machine, it is a perfect match on paper for my needs but would really like to see a bit more proof in the field before committing >$40k. I can afford a Minimill and know it will do the job but can't shake the feeling I'm just contributing 10-15K to Gene's Hot Wheels fund.

[@AudacityMicro]

A used minimill is always fantastic value. You can find them at pretty much any price you want, based on the age. I've saw a functioning 2001 unit go for under $2000 the other day. $40K would get you a really nice 2022 unit.

[@sansbury95]

@@AudacityMicro For most that's right, I'd just rather not have to play that game of hide and seek, would prefer to just stroke a check and buy exactly what I want with a warranty. The truth is I don't need 3 tons of machine--I've had an 1100 for 10 years, and it's done what I needed it to do. I'm not a job shop or volume manufacturer, I use it for R&D and prototyping and really I just wanted a mill with rigid tapping, a real spindle built for ATC, and a proper wireless probe setup. I also prefer to support US/JP/EU manufacturing when the choice is feasible. The 1500 checks all those boxes and throws in a little more HP and envelope, which is why I say it's perfect on paper. It would also be more flexible for my shop since part of the floor is over a basement with some weight limitations. The 1500 could go anywhere, while something 2-3 tons might be limited in where I could move it. If it wasn't for the weight/power constraints I'd just buy a VF2 or Brother and call it a day but in reality I don't need that much machine.

[@AudacityMicro]

In that case it sounds like the perfect machine for you. If I was buying one myself, I would probably skip their probe, and get a used renishaw unit on ebay. That'll save you a few thousand dollars, and get you a nicer probe. You will see far, far, far better finishes on this machine than on your 1100, and it's a lot easier to run, being far more forgiving about speeds and feeds.

[@sansbury95]

@@AudacityMicro The used probe is an interesting idea. Will definitely consider that if I go this route.

[@hassiaschbi]

Did i get it right, that the z-ballscrew is in a pushing configuration, rather than pulling the headstock against gravity?

[@AudacityMicro]

I don't think so, it's a normal setup, with the motor on the top of the column, lifting the headstock

[@Flipping_Assets]

Headquarters in Madison Wisconsin?

[@AudacityMicro]

Yup!

[@guest6423]

He calls it a "Standard Flood Coolant System", but on the website, it's a $2700 option for the Flood Coolant Kit. Is there a standard system separate from the $2700 optional one?

[@AudacityMicro]

"standard" as opposed to "thru spindle". As you pointed out, it is of course an option. It's possible to DIY something cheaper, but it probably wouldn't be worth it.

[@guest6423]

@@AudacityMicro Thank you for the reply! I wish that they would drop the tagline about having the competitors' options as standard, because they lack coolant and a tool changer that Haas includes. With those, they're identically priced at $40K. Not sure which to choose.

[@AudacityMicro]

@guest6423 you know, you aren't wrong 🤣. I may bring that up to them.

[@oishisakana]

I wish you could do the same for a syil

[@AudacityMicro]

If they would let me, I would!

[@cullenosborne7494]

Are there really no drawbacks to having it on 3 legs?

[@AudacityMicro]

It's actually a benefit. It prevents frame-twist, and makes leveling really easy

[@cullenosborne7494]

@@AudacityMicro give me a shovel cus I can dig it.

[@cullenosborne7494]

@AudacityMicro have you seen the pentamachine solo? I know it's twice the price more or less but if you had the money would you get it instead?

[@AudacityMicro]

I have! It actually ran a demo part I at the last IMTS! A pocket NC v2 was the first machine I ever made money on! It is an option. It has a lot of upsides, but I'm not sure if it's big enough. I would love to see more in the wild first.

[@animus3d663]

Very interesting, thanks for showing it up close. Looks decently built but I’m admittedly late to the party as my syil arrives next month

[@TheVFXAssault]

Good luck with the Syil! I've been eying the X9 for a few months. The X7 seems very capable, since they finally made the Spindle have some more proper power.

[@animus3d663]

@@TheVFXAssault thanks!

[@lexugax]

My biggest problem with this cool machine is the almost 0.001" accuracy.

[@AudacityMicro]

When you say .001" accuracy, what do you mean? Accuracy is determined by a whole lot of factors, and a true accuracy of .001 is super good, beating most VMCs that are 5x the cost. It pretty compact so thermal issues aren't huge. I didn't check for table sag across the X travel, but its built just like an industrial machine, so shouldn't be any worse than a larger equivalent machine. Tooling and fixtures are definitely going to be the biggest source of error using the machine, which is true with all machines. I also saw it make 60 softjaws in a row, fed by a robot, and I couldn't measure any variation between them with calipers (didn't bring my mic, sorry)

[@lexugax]

@@AudacityMicro Sorry, what I mean was repeatability precision. Syil for example claims around .0001" while when I spoke to one of Tormach's representatives, he said the 1500 was about .0008", which is pretty close to a thousandths. To be honest, I am new to CNC milling, and I am yet to buy one, but I spoke to someone who told me that 0.001" was too high for some applications, like making parts that needed to press fit, for example. Was he wrong? I like the 1500 otherwise.

[@AudacityMicro]

I would say the repeatability is tighter than .0008". That sounds more like the accuracy across the whole machine. Most machines tend to be really good at repeatability, even the low end tormachs are definitely not bad in that aspect. Syils are good machines, very arguably a better value if you can deal with the three-phase power thing, and a somewhat cryptic controller. But I would say the accuracy between the 1500 MX and the equivalent style machines is comparable. Other than the aforementioned conveniences, the biggest difference is that the syil will have more horsepower, which will let you remove material faster. That's an inherent downside of tormach single phase thing. Most shops do not ever deal with things tighter than plus or minus .003" or so. Even in my kind of work plus or minus .001 isn't super common. The exception for that tends to be tight tolerance holes, which generally means that you need a reamer or boring head

[@lexugax]

@@AudacityMicro Thank you so much for taking the time and explaining this to me. I am thinking about getting a machine by the end of the year, and I'm between this one and the X7. I did see that the 1500 goes only up to 6hp while the x7 goes to 16hp. I wasn't sure how much this would affect me if I don't have to reduce big chunks of steel to chips very fast, meaning, if I don't need to work with big, heavy blocks of stock which require a lot of removal, but as I said, I have no experience. I do like that the 1500 has a bigger range of motion, and more tool capacity, and thought these things would be more useful than more HP, but I could be wrong. Another thing which concerns me was the lighter weight of the 1500. I wonder if it would make it noticeable less rigid.

[@AudacityMicro]

The syil is more machine for the money. The 1500 is perfect for people who don't have a lot of space, or access to three phase power. I'm pretty sure you can option up a Syil with a bigger tool changer too. With the tormach you also get really good US based support, and spare parts. With the Syil support is mostly limited to a community Facebook group, and spare parts may be shipping all the way from China. I suppose the 1500 probably is a little less rigid than an X7, but you won't notice, because it doesn't have the power to take advantage of the extra rigidity. If you can fit a X7, and have three phase/can install a phase converter, go with the X7. It'll have a longer learning curve, but it's a more capable machine. The 1500 is easier to use and far more convenient, but less powerful.

[@Daniel-rs6hm]

Definitely looks like a improvement over some of the junk they shipped previsiouly lol. But in the 40-50k range there are some real machines available that would run circles around it.

[@AudacityMicro]

I mean, if we aren't talking used machines, there's basically the DC1 or a syil. There's not a huge variety in the price point. All the of the machines have their own up, and down sides. The big selling point of the tormach is that it's single phase, and lift gate compatible. Makes it a lot more accessible to more people. It's also more user friendly for people who are just getting started in machining. Haas comes with a better support network, Syil is the best bang for the buck at the cost of support and usability. Each machine has its own niche

[@Daniel-rs6hm]

@@____________________ok Haas, Hurco, leadwell, milltronics and doosan all have there smaller mills starting at 50k, i mean you wouldnt get all the bells and whistles that the tormach has but the machine will atleast work lol

[@AudacityMicro]

I mean, Haas does have the minimill and TM series, but by the time you build in rigging, and reasonable options, those land around $60K delivered. The 1500MX lands around $45K with a reasonable amount of options. So it's not as big of a gap as it used to be, but it's still ~33% more expensive to go to a Haas. $15000 is a lot of money.

[@Daniel-rs6hm]

@@AudacityMicro that's true but doosan is running 30% of MSRP on in stock right now and Haas is doing 25% off and free financing for up to 72 months, so the machines are basically the same cost when you factor all the deals in that the real brands offer

[@Daniel-rs6hm]

@@AudacityMicro and dont get me wrong haas in my opinon sucks, there spindle run out on the basic 10 and 12k spindles is .006 on a 1 foot test bar which is crazy, but atleast the machines do run. My experience with a tormach that i purchased new was its about 50/50 if its running right or if it has issues and you gota shoot the parts cannon at it lol

[@rykkuuu]

man that wire and tube management could be better

[@AudacityMicro]

yeah, my 1100 was a mess too. Though that was partially my fault

[@AudacityMicro]

Very possibly. A lot of the ones they had in the showroom has some quirk due to being a prototype

[@SkansgardCNC]

why do machine tool manufacturers insist on storing important stuff in volatile memory instead of on solid state storage!? :P

[@AudacityMicro]

Not sure what you mean, can you explain?

[@oliverer3]

@@SkansgardCNC They do? Doesn't make sense to me, doubt you have to reinstall software after every reboot or power cut.

[@SkansgardCNC]

It seems all commercial cnc's store important parameters in volatile memory, meaning that if it is left unplugged for too long, it needs to be re-calibrated or even reinstalled by service personel. As a developer, I cannot understand why this is, other than greed (saving pennies on a machine costing tens or hundreds of thousands). At least the tormach can re-calibrate itself though 😅

[@SkansgardCNC]

For some perspective; my DIY-cnc stores all parameters in eeprom/flash storage, so it can be unpowered indefinitely and will still have the parameters intact. This has been the case in all the iterations, from using an Arduino, a teensy and now an esp32 😅

[@AudacityMicro]

Ah, I see what you are saying. Yes, a lot of machines need their little onboard battery in place to store parameters. That's a thing, I don't know why either. This machine doesn't do that. It's fine without batteries or power or whatever. What Norman was talking about was a completely different thing. It's not using the power to store its position data, it's using it to record changes in the data. It's actively tracking the encoder positions on the servos. That takes energy. It's not losing parameters or something like that. It's just unable to update it's memory with NEW data as it comes in.

[@timeckelmann1196]

That machine is way overpriced for what you get.

[@AudacityMicro]

What are you comparing it to?

[@nathancoy8066]

^ Have you used Path Pilot?