Divine Hiddenness: A Christian Response

[@sphagbog]

This has really helped me answer the question ... AND my "What it means to be a Protestant" book just arrived. Happy Sunday

[@TruthUnites]

yahoo, enjoy!

[@taylore22]

The nerd/theologian in me loved this video, but the artist in me loved it as well too! Also, my mother surprised me and got your newest book for me to read I have been loving it currently on part 2: the case for sola scriptura!

[@TheRoark]

It’s out! 🎉 I hope this video is helpful for everyone, I had a blast on the visuals. 😊

[@jimyoung9262]

Fantastic job. Thank you!

[@tbcreative562]

I've been struggling with a dark night of the soul for a little while. Feeling abandoned by God, like he doesn't hear me. I know that the Psalmists felt the same, and so did Jesus when he was on the cross. It's really tough some days, just hanging on by a thread, feels like he's playing games with me sometimes. This video helped me to realise I'm not alone in this sentiment. Thanks Gavin. Love your channel. God Bless you.

[@gigahorse1475]

I’ve gone through long periods of this too throughout my life. I just got out of one of these dark nights, and my faith is stronger because of it. Pray to God to keep you with Him and He will. I said a prayer for you. 🙏🏻

[@tbcreative562]

I'm just waiting for an Athiest to reply "that's because your sky daddy doesn't exist"

[@morghe321]

I can totally relate to you. Like you, it helps me knowing I'm not alone.

[@Athabrose]

The Dark Night of The Soul by Gerald May might be helpful friend.

[@5BBassist4Christ]

I've been wrestling with some deep personal questions for God for nearly 8 years now, so I understand feeling abandoned by God, like He doesn't hear, like you're just hanging on, and being played. One time when I was seeking counsel from a friend, he reminded me of a story I had previously told him of God's faithfulness in my own life. Sometimes, in this dark night, we can forget God's past work. Or, even worse, sometimes we can think, "Yeah, sure God, You saved me then, so why would You abandon me now?" It is hard, and I would be lying if I claimed to have all the answers (I don't have the answers of my own questions, how could I answer yours when I don't even know your story?), but I have seen God provide in the past, and that needs to be a regular reminder. Here is a poem I wrote in this time: Of all Your children maybe I have proved Your faithfulness the most. With all Your promises how could I ever have reason to suppose? But forgive me for I may fall apart for today. The storms are closing in and I'm not sure if I'm able to oppose. I know You are a Father who will always love and care for Your children. But life has knocked me down, and the many dreams I've had are left broken. Still I know You're by my side, and You know the tears I've cried. Give me faith to find my strength in the hope of the words You have spoken. For You never will forsake or leave us But are always there to lead us, Oh God, I know it's who You are. I'm sorry for my days of doubt I don't know what they are about But I trust in You to lead me through this life. 'Cause Lord Your power is infinite And Your love is intimate So I trust in You to lead me through this life.

[@grills5]

One of your Catholic listeners here - great stuff Dr Ortland!

[@reepicheepsfriend]

Appreciate this video! I especially like that the tone isn't dismissive towards those struggling with these questions.

[@thereseservais924]

That was my prayer 38 years ago, in tears because of the reproaches of my conscience. God answered (he send me people with a clear message of the Gospel) and I got saved. Indeed He used the best way ever to reach my heart. How could I have neglect His proposed salvation ? I accepted it with great joy, relief and thankfulness. Praise the Lord ! Very good video brother. Blessings from the Netherlands.

[@theodorerogers5809]

Really appreciate this video! I really enjoy your videos dealing with reasons to believe in God and answers to objections to God's existence!

[@grant8002]

Hey Gavin, I’m a college student at GCSU and Im in a philosophy class and right now we are discussing the existence of God, through a bunch of different ontological arguments. My dad Jay Miller knows you and I’m so glad I found your insightful videos… they have helped reinforce my arguments so greatly.

[@TruthUnites]

thanks so much for watching and say hi to your awesome dad!

[@landlubbber]

There's also something to be said for the fact that some people seem just to be wired differently. I've never really had any undeniable "spiritual experiences", but I'm a Christian because there's nothing else I can do about the evidence for the resurrection. One day I'll see the Lord face-to-face and until then what I have will have to be good enough

[@no1ofconsequence936]

Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet have believed. -John 20:29b

[@networktwentythree]

Me too! 🙏🏻

[@thejabberwocky2819]

There is quite literally zero evidence of the resurrection

[@no1ofconsequence936]

@@thejabberwocky2819 In other news, "5 things doctors don't want you to know about blood pressure."

[@thejabberwocky2819]

@@no1ofconsequence936 I like how you proved me right immediately by failing to provide a single shred of evidence.

[@jtbasener8740]

Thank you for this, dear friend! It was beautifully and perfectly done! I know for myself, personally, I have struggled with crippling doubt of my faith during which I wanted nothing more than for God to open up the skies and charge down for me. But I realize, after all the whirlwind of doubt has passed, that God's merely revealing himself in the gentle whisper of beauty and not the booming thunder of revelation was just what I needed; had He opened up the sky, I would have merely been vaguely aware that some being with greater power than I exists and at least wants me to think that he answers my prayers. But, after all has passed, I see now that I am certain of so much more in my heart, mind, and soul about God's character because the silence was just what I needed to truly piece together the truth of my faith with my mind and not just see a puppet show of it with my eyes. Blessings to everyone!

[@davionknight521]

Very beautiful! ❤ I want more of these 🥹 Thanks Gavin! God bless

[@ruandegoede9369]

All I can say is thank you... I really needed this

[@АндрейМизафаров]

What a beautiful video! I will pray for you and your channel

[@mrshmanckles1463]

This video comes at a perfect time. Just last night I was asking God for more than just knowledge and belief for my faith in him I want an experience undeniable for strength, power & endurance.

[@rushmik]

Bravo, Gavin, and Ryan Roark! Excellent presentation, and I love the invitation at the end.

[@oadefisayo]

Praise God! Thank you, Dr. Ortlund. This has really helped me push through some difficulties faced recently

[@bradleymarshall5489]

I've seen this cause a lot of anxiety for people. Thanks Gavin great job!

[@markcolvin6041]

Thank you for taking on this question in your public ministry. I do believe the wisdom of Divine Hiddenness reveals even more of God's elegant and loving Person.

[@morninglory576]

I really love the way you did this video. My mind wanders, but with this video I was able to stay tuned in. 😊 Thank you.

[@JesusIsTheOnlyWayTruthLife]

This is a topic I've been looking for good responses to for a while! Looking forward to this, thank you, Gavin!

[@inkman102]

A beautiful work Dr Ortlund, thanks so much!

[@kylie5741]

Such a beautiful video. I really like C.S. Lewis’ treatment of this issue in Till We Have Faces.

[@DarkArcticTV]

Praise God ❤

[@PortugueseWithBruno]

excellent. This is the kind of video that reminds me to focus on the purspose of my life, follow God, and grow in Him, thank you

[@quarantinegames5502]

Thank you so much Dr. O I’ve struggled with this before and appreciate it!

[@jr_1742]

Not to say too much about myself, and why I think this, but your longer video on this topic is probably my favourite video on the entire internet. I wish that more people would watch it, and I hope that this shorter version encourages people to watch the real thing.

[@TruthUnites]

thanks, glad you enjoyed it!

[@tdhoward]

The real question is whether this universe is indistinguishable from one in which no God exists.

[@devintarr]

This is wonderful! Ty Gavin ❤❤

[@rickydettmer2003]

Love this. Can’t wait to share 👍

[@joshualeond]

Beautiful, thanks Gavin!

[@ignatiousjasentes1658]

Hey Gavin, thanks for having a crack at this question. Really helpful thoughts! One of the things some of my peers (and I suspect Alex O'Connor) have issue with is their immediate expectation of God's revelation. I am of the conviction that God will answer that prayer but that He may choose to answer it in 20, 30 or more years for His glory. Love to hear your thoughts on that as well, I sensed that aspect in some of my conversations.

[@twentyfourthrones]

This may be one of your best videos yet

[@ApostolicStorm]

“For we walk by faith, not by sight.” - 2 Corinthians 5:7

[@Scandimania]

So wilful ignorance rather than knowledge.

[@ApostolicStorm]

@@Scandimania “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.” - Proverbs 9:10

[@Scandimania]

@@ApostolicStorm yeah great irrelevant verse. "Book say so therefore reality".

[@thejabberwocky2819]

​@@ApostolicStorm"My fairy tale says so so must be true"

[@ApostolicStorm]

@@Scandimania Ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls? Read the historically preserved Messianic prophecies about the Messiah-clarifying the exclusivity of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Also, archaeologically, research and see for yourself the Crown of Thorns, Roman Spear that pierced Jesus during His crucifixion, Empty Tomb in Jerusalem, and the recently proven Shroud of Turin.

[@Thundawich]

If God wants to make sure we love him for him and not because of what he gives us, shouldn't he get rid of the afterlife? Having a good/bad ending that depends on how much you love him and do what he says is exactly the sort of coercion that the king was trying to avoid.

[@truthovertea]

This was fantastic, great work Gavin! I really appreciate your attentiveness to the divine hiddenness problem.

[@elijahnewell8064]

This was a beautiful and helpful video on the subject; thank you for making it!

[@ogloc6308]

Glory to God

[@YuDynasty]

I’m not crying…you are and I just got (sniffle).

[@AlessandroFranchi]

Beautiful❤❤❤

[@KevikkGamess]

an excellent video. Love the analogies you make to prove your points.

[@jonasj2627]

Wow! What a fantastic video Gavin. Thanks and I hope many people come closer to God through this video.

[@cjstev1]

Great video! Very helpful!

[@jimyoung9262]

This video was great. I loved the visuals as well. Thanks

[@kennethirungu1556]

Great video. Thanks a lot.

[@jimyoung9262]

This is a fantastic video. I can't help but notice that there are significantly more subscribers on this channel since that book slandered you, Dr. Ortlund. It's ironic that more people will have an opportunity to be exposed to videos like this one because of the abuse you received and the way you handled it with Christian grace. God really does work all things together for good to those who love Him. The Lord bless you brother.

[@gardengirlmary]

Nice animation! I liked how the quotes were incorporated

[@meganwarr6258]

This was so good! I loved it!

[@barry.anderberg]

Brilliantly done!

[@SuperSaiyanKrillin]

If God is a more loving father then my earthly father, why would it be a unreasonable expectation for my heavenly father to be just as present and interactable to me ?

[@TruthUnites]

earthly fathers are finite, visible, and have a biological tie, so these seem like relevant differences

[@SuperSaiyanKrillin]

@@TruthUnites thanks for the response ! please know that my question came in good faith. My first thought would be that wouldn't Christ having a visible and biological resurrected body right now sort of complicate your answer ?

[@thejabberwocky2819]

​@@TruthUnitesIf my biological father lived on a different continent from me and never spoke to me, would that be an indication of love or indifference?

[@stanislaw_sk]

@@TruthUnites The differences you mention do not seem relevant for rebutting the divine hiddenness argument. The tie between God and his creatures is stronger than the biological tie between the parents and their offspring, so if anything, we should expect more of Him than of them. God may not be visible and infinite but He is also omnipotent, so He is able to efficaciously reveal himself to humans in many different ways (see the Bible).

[@haitaelpastor976]

@@thejabberwocky2819 Very good point. I borrow it with your permission.

[@walter7199]

It's been a while since I actually had a good cry during one of these videos, thanks for the King analogy.

[@Thatoneguy-pu8ty]

Well done Gavin and Ryan. 😁

[@Hillbillywayfarer]

That was lovely, thank you.

[@PastorCorbin]

Great video, great animation!

[@sirdude6114]

Really cool video, commenting for the algorithm to share it more

[@lawtonsegler1923]

I’ve been thinking along these lines for most of my adult life, and this is the closest thing I’ve found that describes what I’ve had on my heart all these years. I’ve always wondered why I haven’t seen more on this subject. I’ve assumed it’s because delving into this subject inevitably leads to a lot of speculation and that’s must be something theologians avoid. I don’t know…. I think it’s helpful to start with trying to articulate God’s ultimate purpose for mankind. Yes, speculating right from the start. I was taught long ago that we were created to glorify God and have fellowship with Him forever. If being made in the image of God means we share some of his some of His characteristics, then perhaps He only wants to fellowship with those who freely share his ways. That’s the way we operate, right? Also, an example of the King seeking a wife analogy is the church itself. I’m not a historian, but it seems like the church was very politically powerful in centuries past, attracting many for the wrong reasons. It would seem like a less politically powerful church that solely focused on teaching and worshiping God would logically be more healthy because there is no reason to be involved unless you have a very strong love of the Lord. Also, what about praying for healing of the sick. If God answered a majority of the prayers for the terminally ill it wouldn’t take long before the church was even more polluted than it is today. A similar line of thinking could be applied to the first appearance of the messiah. He clearly revealed himself as God to some, but not all. I heard Steve Brown say God greases the tracks in both directions, meaning, He makes it easy to believe for those who want to believe, and at the same time He makes it easy to not believe…. I think that someone should write a book on this subject. While we’re incapable of understanding the purpose and ways of the creator, it would be helpful to have some understanding, flawed as it may be, of why we worship something we can’t see. If someone knows of books on the subject please pass it along. ❤

[@maryellenbowersock5099]

Yes, amen 🙏

[@malcolmlayton2050]

To be honest I didn't find God to be hidden at all ... the 'Hound of Love' was always snapping at my heels until I turned around and bent the knee

[@EnglishMike]

Agreed, Kate Bush is a goddess indeed! :)

[@malcolmlayton2050]

@@EnglishMike lol ... my bad ... I meant the poem, The Hound of Heaven, by Frances Thompson, but yes ... major crush on the beautiful Kate ... which is probably why my brain went there

[@Swo37]

Great!

[@meckybelieves]

Great video!

[@dennisravndal]

Awsome video!

[@glueckseligehoffnung3058]

Amen ❤ Thank you!

[@alexrdy1986]

Very nice

[@tiffanyacuff9450]

Love this!

[@Thrawnmulus]

Well sure, direct revelation is less direct than a conscience if we presuppose the biblical account of Moses and the burning bush is A) wrong and B) our conscience is intuitively know to be revelation from God, which you helpfully pointed out earlier cannot be gauged properly. Thank you for playing yourself

[@Thrawnmulus]

And we end on *seek and ye shall find"!!! Like I didn't pray that a hundred times a hundred different ways during my reconversion! Have you spoken to any atheist that left? We're you listening to them?

[@EnglishMike]

The conscience argument is extremely parochial. How does it apply to the 5+ billion people of other faiths who no doubt believe their conscience is their connection to Allah or some other deity? The only difference between them and Christians? The religion they were taught to believe in as children.

[@ghostlyyt9167]

Gavin could you answer the objection of why do some people like Paul get different treatment?

[@rebekahvalerius1988]

Well done! Thank you!

[@MBarberfan4life]

I don't think God would always be actively open (on his end) to a relationship. At least, it's not obvious why God would always be open. Why couldn't God be closed for half a second to Susan? The relationship could be toxic, etc.

[@philtheo]

What I find interesting isn't so much non-resistant non-belief, but resistant non-belief that becomes belief. For example: 1. St. Paul on the road to Damascus. 2. Francis Thompson who penned the poem "The Hound of Heaven". 3. C.S. Lewis in Surprised by Joy: My Adversary waived the point. It sank into utter unimportance. He would not argue about it. He only said, "I am the Lord"; "I am that I am"; "I am". People who are naturally religious find difficulty in understanding the horror of such a revelation. Amiable agnostics will talk cheerfully about "man's search for God". To me, as I then was, they might as well have talked about the mouse's search for the cat... You must picture me alone in that room in Magdalen, night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England. I did not then see what is now the most shining and obvious thing; the Divine humility which will accept a convert even on such terms. The Prodigal Son at least walked home on his own feet. But who can duly adore that Love which will open the high gates to a prodigal who is brought in kicking, struggling, resentful, and darting his eyes in every direction for a chance of escape? The words compelle intrare, compel them to come in, have been so abused by wicked men that we shudder at them; but, properly understood, they plumb the depth of the Divine mercy. The hardness of God is kinder than the softness of men, and His compulsion is our liberation.

[@Yaas_ok123]

Thanks. Depate Leighton Flowers/Idolkiller. Ordered you new book !😊

[@rebeccavickery507]

This is so good. Thank you.

[@jj4829]

could you do a response on Trent Horn's most recent video on sin and addressing the scandal of the protestant pastor

[@CrownOfThornss]

Amen!

[@voiceofthefathertv]

Fantastic

[@DocLarsen44]

🙏🏾praying in the name of ✝Yeshua Ha Mashiach/Jesus Christ✝

[@swahat1713]

Hi Gavin! A lot of respect for you and your work, the Lord has really used you to bless me and my friends who I’ve shared a lot of your videos to. I have a question/potential video topic for you! Is there a place for monasticism in modern day Protestant/evangelical Christianity? There were several problems with historical monasticism (clerical celibacy you’ve already made a video addressing, issues of works based righteousness, and the issue of withdrawing one’s self completely from the world) but I’m curious to know if there is anything to be learned from monasticism that we might be missing in today’s evangelical church. Would love to hear your thoughts/if there are any resources you could point me to. Thanks again for all the hard work that you do, praise God for it is he who works in you. God bless you, your family, and your ministry!

[@shamelesspopery]

That Kierkegaard parable is 🔥-- great work!

[@EnglishMike]

If God came to me as an ordinary person and spent weeks getting to know me through intimate conversations answering all my questions with an eloquence and a knowledge beyond all previous experience, then perhaps I would be convinced to love him too, but alas, all I have is a thousand different Christians I barely know (and often don't respect at all) giving me a thousand different interpretations of what a two thousand year old book claims about the nature of God.

[@JohnnyQuick_]

If a perfectly loving omniscient omnipotent god existed, I would expect it to be actively, unambiguously communicative. Unless some twisted definition of “perfect” requires that it specifically not communicate actively with us, or specifically not love us. No booming voice necessary; no writing in the clouds necessary. Just talk.

[@JohnnyQuick_]

I have re-watched the video and reflected on this expectation of mine. I find it to be reasonable. In any loving relationship, one of the most important aspects is unambiguous continuing communication. If it stops, the relationship stops. If ambiguous, misunderstandings abound, sewing discord. If all attempts by one party to communicate are constantly redirected and referred to a love letter written long ago, communication has effectively stopped. If the unresponsive party was never directly interacting, and there is evidence the letter was never written by them to begin with, and the letter was also addressed to everyone else, it begins to smell like a cold-reading prank taken way too far.

[@JohnnyQuick_]

None of this proves no god exists. However, it does show that a perfectly loving omniscient omnipotent god who created humans in its image and loves them probably does not exist.

[@aucatag]

Hi Gavin, great content yet again. And I'm really enjoying reading your new book 'why I am a Protestant' at the moment as well. Hey I am leaving this comment on all your videos hoping to get this message to you. I know you don't have time, but I will keep pestering like the widow in Luke 18. I am a young and aspiring theologian with lots to learn, and not to sound arrogant, but I think I found a viable and Biblical alternative to Calvinism, that is NOT Arminianism. I've written an article about it and I really respect your opinion and would love for you to read it sometime. Feel free to debunk it as well. Please? Let me know how I can get it to you! Praying for you mate from Australia! Blessings, Jase.

[@stevendavis1940]

Did God reveal himself to Paul of Tarsus in these subtle ways? No. When God reveals himself to me like he did to Paul, then that will change everything.

[@zachhecita]

So you would place yourself as equal to the Apostle Paul?

[@WaterCat5]

​@@zachhecita Galatians 3:28

[@EnglishMike]

@@zachhecita What has status have to do with anything? Doesn't God love everyone equally? Does he not care as much for atheists as he did Paul?

[@jacobhawley8659]

I love “The God as Teacher”

[@jiubertomonteiro1461]

Hey Gavin, did you catch Joe Schmidt's reply to your video about the moral argument on Intelectual Catholicism?

[@bridgetgolubinski]

Really love these shorter, animation videos!

[@EnglishMike]

He's really getting the hang of feeding the Almighty Algorithm, isn't he...

[@rgmrtn]

He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’" Mark 4:11-12. Gnarly, worrisome text. I can only make sense of it by figuring "we might turn and forgive ourselves" prematurely, which we undoubtedly do, but I'm not sure it's what Jesus and Mark are saying.

[@asherburns6818]

Don’t forget about us Spotifyers :)

[@Weavileiscool]

I think because it’s animated it wasn’t put on podcast platforms

[@processandbeing]

If you're going to reference another video of yours could you please, PLEASE provide a link in your video description? Or add a pop-up link in the video itself? I searched your channel and can't find A Pascalian Approach in there... But I could do a better job if I weren't so tired haha

[@TruthUnites]

sorry ... search for "Divine hiddenness" it will come up

[@Capt.Fail.]

I don’t think an appeal to modern sensibilities gets out of the argument. It seems hard to get out of the fact that Christian doctrine mandates that you confess Christ as savior to be saved, and if there is something more that could be done by God to allow us to do that, he would do it. There exist people that simply want to be more certain he exists (whether or not his existence is obvious to you, it is not to me), and so that contradicts the idea that God either can inform me or wants to. And my being properly informed is necessary for me to become saved, so a loving God would desire it. Of course worth noting that here God would not be required to empirically confirm his existence or even make it beyond any doubt (can anything be beyond doubt?). He only needs to actually convince everyone that could be convinced (as far as why he made people that couldn’t be convinced, that is also a theological issue, but a separate one).

[@reepicheepsfriend]

1 - We can't know what other people are thinking, so even if a person says that "he simply wants to be more certain God exists," there may be other reasons he's resisting God which are not stated. 2 - I know this will sound like a cop out, but I do think we need to seriously consider that God works over time and there may be some people who are not convinced now but will become convinced later. Is God wrong to make people wait for a revelation?

[@thecatalysm5658]

I asked Chat GPT the other day if it could argue for another historical or religious figure whose teachings were on par with Jesus. I was trying to get him to mention or elaborate on Siddhartha or Confucius - anybody. Chat pretty much said, no, that Jesus was on a whole nother level. I asked it again to make sure it was being objective knowing my biases from our conversations. Chat doubled down. What exactly do you want?

[@Capt.Fail.]

@@reepicheepsfriend You can’t know what other people are truly thinking, sure, but I think attributing dishonesty to all such individuals is a tough defense to make. And, of course, it only serves to help people who are already convinced. Those of us who you have to claim are lying will know you are wrong by virtue of having access to our own minds and knowing we aren’t. I think it’s a dangerous option to take. On point 2, surely this is true. I hope it is correct and I’ll be given what I’m seeking one day. Until then, I’ll have to act as though it’s not the case because I don’t see any reason to expect it.

[@Capt.Fail.]

@@thecatalysm5658 What argument are you making, exactly? Chat GPT told you Christianity is reliable? I don’t know what you expect that shows? Jesus is certainly one of the most well-attested of ancient historical figures. He almost certainly existed. That doesn’t demonstrate to me that he was divine or that we even received what he truly taught.

[@EnglishMike]

@@reepicheepsfriend The fact that of the more than five billion people of faith who are not and never will be Christians would appear to invalidate the claim that God works over time. If only one in a thousand Muslims converts to Christianity before they die (and I would be very surprised if it's even that many), then whatever God is doing, it's either not working, or he's not trying very hard. The reality is that a vanishingly small number of people convert from one religion to another. Around 99% of those who die as Christians were raised in a Christian home and/or community. Even the majority of salvation stories you hear are also from people who were raised in a Christian home and/or community and then "parted from God for a season" before returning. Almost every Divine Hiddenness discussion I have seen limits itself to the very narrow experience of Christians and atheists in the US and a handful of similar countries, and that makes it hard enough to rebut for Christians, but when you expand the scope to the entire world and its other major religious traditions, learned in childhood, the what-if arguments in Gavin's video fall completely flat.

[@lancewren6870]

Great video and all very great points, but I think the more immediate reason why God is hidden is the whole “you cannot see My face, for man shall not see Me and live” thing. God is holy and you are a sinner. Seeing God, even in only a fraction of His glory, would be very terrifying and when God shows up in the fullness of His glory at the end of time it will consume all of creation.

[@EnglishMike]

The Ancient Israelites didn't seem to have much problem with God's constant manifestations during their wilderness years -- a pillar of fire by night and a whirlwind by day, just to refresh your memory. It is a little strange to believe that an omnipotent omnipresent being can't find a way to manifest their presence to regular folks without driving them insane. It's very science-fictiony to say the least.

[@haitaelpastor976]

Yet there were men who saw God and did not die on the spot. Many of them in fact are mentioned in the Bible.

[@DanCantey]

Dear Gavin et al., I write as a convert from Presbyterianism (PCA) to Eastern Orthodoxy. I have a few comments that I hope will illumine the Orthodox perspective on this issue. First, the Orthodox would not describe the problem of divine hiddenness this way. It's not a problem in the modern sense, as Orthodoxy, in spirit at least, belongs to the pre-modern religions mentioned at one point in the video. The Orthodox pray at every worship service to the God who "is everywhere present and fills all things, treasury of blessings and giver of life." The first thing that God fills is the human heart, but he also is everywhere in the external world. How, then, is God hidden? The Orthodox would understand this apophatically. God is always near, always close, but to draw near to God is to discover him in silence - the silence of prayer. Vladimir Lossky's "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church" is a good reference for this, if you're theologically minded. Perhaps this is what Gavin means when he speaks of transcendence at one place, but I don't want to put words in his mouth. Second, the idea that conscience is "the whisper of God himself" seems unfortunately thin in light of the Orthodox tradition. When one approaches God in prayer, after a long time of patience and struggle, in his mercy God pours out the Holy Spirit. To pray is to stand in the presence of God, desiring this communion with him. This is far more than the conscience, I think. Those who are interested should check out "On the Acquisition of the Holy Spirit" by St. Seraphim of Serov. It's a very short book, but worth the read. St. Seraphim's conversation with Motovilov is also highly beneficial, if one wants to see what the saints experience when they have turned over their lives to God. When I was Presbyterian, I was once heard a woman exclaim that "this God is so distant!" I experienced that, too. But in Orthodoxy God is near, and drawing nearer, despite and through the afflictions that he appoints for us. Orthodoxy is the way of the experience of God. Truly, the inner man is renewed day by day (2 Cor).

[@graysonguinn1943]

Divine hiddenness to me seems less a problem for G-ds existence in general but more for revealed religions. Having essential points about our relationship to him be hidden in the shroud of history. The option of G-d revealing himself directly did happen for some (who also had the conscience) but not for others. Why should some get miracles and booming voices 24/7 *and* the conscience and all the other subtle ways of revealing himself, while others only get the latter

[@krizilloo2538]

Alex O’Connor claims that he’s fervently asked God to reveal himself, but hasn’t heard anything, to date.

[@balticeejit9076]

As an ex-Christian atheist I’ve genuinely lost count of the times I’ve said the prayer at the end.

[@krizilloo2538]

@@balticeejit9076 So the simplest answer is that no one is there to respond… but what fun is simple?

[@EnglishMike]

I used to do the same thing when I was a Christian. Never heard a peep.

[@davidrichards2113]

He did: “God's Wrath on Unrighteousness For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.” Do you think our universe and life created itself?

[@seanpierce9386]

Does a baby create itself? You can go from a soup to a complex entity due to the complexity emergent from the rules used to produce it. Turing-Completeness ensures that these systems constantly simulate more systems. It’s complexity all the way down.

[@maddoxpace5127]

Hey Gavin I’m really freaking out about ai and if it will disprove Christianity. I know in this video you said that consciousness is a way God doesn’t keep himself hidden. If ai does become conscious, which depending on who you ask if probably will, how does that affect our worldview. I have been really freaking out over this.

[@reepicheepsfriend]

He said "conscience" not "consciousness" which are not exactly the same things. However, I don't think humans have the ability to create something with consciousness.

[@seanpierce9386]

Consciousness is a difficult thing to pin down since it’s not well-defined. Concerning conscience, we already have an idea of what’s going on: Unless we train the AI on human input for long enough, it has no idea what morality is. It’s only concerned with fulfilling its reward function however it can. This indicates that if AI is at all comparable to humans, we are in a similar position. This makes sense considering there are people with a psychological condition who feel no remorse and have to find other ways to motivate good behaviour. This confirms a utilitarian concept of morality: It’s moral if it works to satisfy everyone’s collective goals.

[@maddoxpace5127]

@@seanpierce9386 then why do so many scientists and ai experts think it will be conscious? I’m not gonna lie I’m actually like panicking over this

[@maddoxpace5127]

@@reepicheepsfriend would Christianity be disproven if it did happen?

[@seanpierce9386]

@@maddoxpace5127 You should think carefully about what you mean by consciousness and what the implications would be. Is consciousness really so special, or is it a just a product of human habits? The answer to this question will determine how it impacts your religion and how concerned you should be. Most Christians accept that humans evolved from single-celled organisms. If you accept this, consciousness must have emerged biologically and not supernaturally. This is reinforced by AI, which can replicate many of our brain’s behaviours through computation alone. Although evolution and the biological origin of consciousness is accepted among many Christians, it doesn’t exactly play nice with the uniqueness of humanity or the concept of objective morality. This was one of the things that caused me to investigate Biblical claims. Speaking from the other side of a long deconstruction journey, it’s not as scary as it might sound. It’s not the world that changes, it’s your perception of it..

[@MatthewFearnley]

One related question I find helpful to think about is, why don’t the people in Star Trek try to make their presence clear and impose their values on the remote planets and undeveloped cultures they visit? I wonder if there’s a similar sense in which God may have his own “prime directive”..

[@EnglishMike]

Because the Prime Directive is an excellent plot device that spawned many interesting episode. In reality the justifications for such a directive are far less clear, and would no doubt be debated endlessly should we ever be in the position to consider having one. If God's prime directive leads to billions of non-Christians spending an eternity of pain and suffering in Hell, is that a good thing?

[@MatthewFearnley]

@@EnglishMike Hi. Thanks for your thoughts. Yeah, I think you're right, that if people who reject God do suffer eternally, this analogy by itself doesn't address that. Yeah, to my knowledge the justifications for the Prime Directive were perhaps never fully defined, and may have varied from writer to writer, but I think it was more than a plot device. I think we recognise there is still something valuable in letting a culture develop naturally, rather than have "the vegetarian space socialists who are always right" (as one comedian described it), come in and try to remodel them from the top down.

[@grantbartley483]

Part of God's plan is to allow us to demonstrate what we're really like. If we had undeniable ever-present evidence of God this would not happen.

[@thejabberwocky2819]

Did lucifer fall from grace despite perfectly knowing God exists? Oops, there goes your argument

[@grantbartley483]

@@thejabberwocky2819 I get my theology from the Bible, not Paradise Lost. Nevertheless, I would need to nuance my point to take yours into account, so thanks, I guess.

[@thejabberwocky2819]

@@grantbartley483 Okay. Explain how knowing God exists would change who I am on a fundamental level. Good luck.

[@grantbartley483]

@@thejabberwocky2819 As Jesus said, You must be born again! This happens through trusting in him, because trusting belief starts to align your mind and will (that is, your self) with ultimate (that is, divine) reality. The changes are significant, including gaining eternal life and the foregiveness of sin, inter alia. I highly recommend it.

[@EnglishMike]

Tell that to the ancient Israelites. They had no trouble demonstrating what they were really like even though they were witness to "undeniable ever-present evidence" of God's power (a pillar of fire by night and a whirlwind by day) among other miracles like the parting of the Red Sea, water from barren rocks, manna from heaven, etc. It only took Moses being away for a 40 day mountain retreat for them to abandon Yahweh altogether and make their own golden god. This is directly from the Bible, by the way, so what say you?

[@SpaceCadet4Jesus]

As an agnostic, I used to think if God exists why doesn't he reveal himself to people? As a Christian, I wonder why people don't get a glimpse of God. Through 47 years, I have heard and seen God multiple times. He has directed my life and kept me out of greater trouble, and he has rescued me when all was lost as my wife lay dying. God does work through circumstance, but I wonder if I'm just so hard-headed that he has to actually talk to me and show himself in order to get through me. Who knows? Don't get me wrong, he doesn't "always" talk to me, doesn't "always" show me himself, I have those why isn't he talking periods of time too. Sometimes he just speaks through his word, the Bible. He does what he wants to do when he wants to do it, that's all I can say.

[@seanpierce9386]

Is this voice audible?

[@SpaceCadet4Jesus]

@@seanpierce9386 You hear him just as if you heard him in your ears. I didn't know it was possible, now I cannot deny it.

[@seanpierce9386]

@@SpaceCadet4Jesus Please provide a yes or no response so we’re absolutely clear. Do you actually hear it? If so, can other people hear the same thing?

[@SpaceCadet4Jesus]

@@seanpierce9386 I thought I was clear. Maybe not enough. Unless God simultaneously directs his words to others, they hear nothing. Same with visions, they see nothing. With your eyes, you see what he's showing you, like his hand or whatever, with your physical ears you hear nothing, but yet you clearly hear his voice telling you what he wants. For me, he's never entered into a conversation. Lucky or blessed is the person who gets that. He says what he wants to say, you recognize it immediately, maybe respond, maybe not, but either way... He's gone. I can't be the only one, in no way am I special. When was the last time God did something profound based on my prayer request? A little over 6 years ago. When was the last time I saw or heard from God in special revelation? In dreams, Probably 10-15 years ago. With eyes or ears? Probably 26-30 years ago. I can't really tell you why I don't hear from him more often is because it's supposed to be that way or because I'm not the best Christian. 🤷🤷🤷

[@seanpierce9386]

@@SpaceCadet4Jesus Thanks for clarifying. I had my suspicions, but I had to be sure. As humans, we tend to construct narratives to explain every perception. These narratives can grow over time and become more certain, despite being less accurate. One time, when I had a fever as a kid, I could audibly hear my sister. It was garbled, repetitive, and annoying, but incredibly real. I never thought that she was actually there. But if I was expecting someone incorporeal and mysterious, I could see how you could easily call that God. This explains why God never talked back to you, and never appeared in the same way to you. However, I can understand why you might dismiss this explanation, considering it’s something very personal to you.

[@haydongonzalez-dyer2727]

neat

[@analyticallysound2716]

So if someone follows their conscience regardless of their religion, they'll go to heaven?

[@isaacwillis725]

Another thought I have had is that manifestations that are physical are an automatic limitation so he should not be ever present in physical form except for how he has already done that in Jesus Christ! Physical nature is so distinct from spiritual nature and God cannot be contained in a singular place and so being spirit, God is present everywhere as Spirit and to do so is to limit him too much. Sure he could manifest himself physically over and over, but that doesn’t necessarily reveal him better than how he has in the conscience like you said

[@EnglishMike]

A physical manifestation doesn't require an omnipresent omnipotent God to be fully contained within it. And even if he was, why is he limited to doing it one time? You're the only one placing limits on God here.

[@jessetocker3412]

Mental gymnastics to try to come to terms with the deafening silence.

[@thomasrutledge5941]

I hear ya. Taoism is good for those recovering from Christianity. =)

[@jessetocker3412]

@@thomasrutledge5941 very beautiful traditions from a very beautiful culture but it’s not my culture. It’s too foreign and alien to my white western mind just like the Asian mind probably has a hard time grasping western ideals. I’m disillusioned with all -isms. They can’t all be right but they can all be wrong. They’re all social constructs from certain times and places in human history. Ultimately all fall short. I like not having the answers and I doubt anyone who claims to have them.

[@thecatalysm5658]

@@jessetocker3412 Deafening silence huh? I was once an athiest, but came to the point where I opened my heart and mind to God. Once that happened, the evidence poured in. Important to note - I didn't give God any preconditions. I wasn't prepared to bargain with Him about truth or morality.

[@jessetocker3412]

@@thecatalysm5658exactly. It’s all in your mind and “feelings” you have in your heart. I was once Christian but I couldn’t suspend my disbelief any longer. It’s an incredibly childish and silly belief system. Like they all are. Social constructs with no ultimate value besides the good feelings it gives.

[@thecatalysm5658]

@@jessetocker3412 What exactly is not in our mind? You made a choice. You must have your own new constructs. Are they superior? Are they valuable in themselves? Teach us your way. Edit: If you have a way to follow, why is it preferable? Does it come with benefits? Is that the reason you prefer not to have 'a way'? No constraints whatsoever? And I do say all of this as a very 'individual minded' Christian.