Confronting Andrew Klavan on Homosexuality

[@fujikokun]

This is the problem with the modern view of the Christian life. If you want to know what the historical view of the Christian life is, just look at this one verse from our Lord Jesus Christ. “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.”

[@i_like_the_7]

❤100

[@lemonhead9628]

Facts, listening to this guy he sounds like a Jesuit, dude doesn't know Jesus and he is trying to justify sin or make it seem in his world view that they will be less punished for committing sin because he believes they are born that way in his worldview which is false. Sin is still sin he he punishes his own people severely in the bible for sinning. This is no different everyone not found in the book of life will be punished and that includes all gays that continued their homosexual and committing sodomy. If satan goal is to destroy the two institutions created in the seven days, (Marriage between man and woman and the Seventh Day Sabbath) then he has almost clearly succeeded. He his destroyed the marriage institution in practically all western countries. Satan has succeed in deceiving practically almost ALL so called "christian's" into forgetting/disregarding the only commandment he told his followers to remember (4th). There is only a few groups still left today that keep his commandments because they love him.

[@RockerfellerRothchild1776]

And none of you do this ....

[@curateipsum8311]

@@RockerfellerRothchild1776 omnia possum in eo qui me confortat Philippenses 4: 13

[@joshpetermann]

@@RockerfellerRothchild1776 You know every professing Christ-follower on the face of the planet and the crosses they do or do not bear?

[@Adam17broqn10]

I sympathize with him, but I think his opinion on this is largely shaped by Spencer’s circumstance. He’s bending himself into a pretzel to justify it

[@ArthurCSchaperMR]

@@Adam17broqn10 yes!

[@smedeiros86]

100%.

[@trygveskogsholm5963]

Religion is bending yourself in pretzels. If none of it is going to be logical it might as well be creative ;)

[@trygveskogsholm5963]

Religion is bending yourself into pretzels.

[@Daniel-mw7pu]

You’re right, Christians bending themselves into a pretzel to justify divorce and remarriage is wrong.

[@zacharyboudreau9127]

Klavan’s argument is happiness first. The church says holiness first.

[@aalitz]

@@zacharyboudreau9127 The two are not mutually exclusive. We need to stay away from false dichotomies like this one.

[@darklightimages]

​@@aalitz His statement isn't a false dichotomy it's prioritizing the seeking of holiness over happiness. For it is better to be right in the Lord than to be "happy". Because as the word said John 15:18-25 "18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. 24 If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.' "

[@jeremiahharrison9752]

@@aalitz this is not a false dichotomy, human beings are very malleable it is quite possible to learn to love something that is perverse, and to be happy at least for a time. Holiness transcends happiness.

[@SusanBurrows-y9t]

​@@aalitz the Bible is clear and so is God about holiness and homosexuality. Happiness is not a priority. The joy of the LORD is our strength.❤❤❤

[@aalitz]

@@jeremiahharrison9752 Dichotomies claim that something is either-or. Yet, there is a fair amount of overlap between happiness and holiness.

[@quitgoogle2534]

"Being born that way" is never an excuse for immorality. Everyone is born with an inclination to sin.

[@Alex-xh9kv]

@@quitgoogle2534 , let me repeat that for the people in the back. "Everyone is born with an inclination to sin." People differ in their besetting sin, but we all sin nonetheless.

[@rbfoster]

@@Chevaposaurus what? That is what scripture says. Quite clearly. We are born sinners. All sin is sin.

[@femaleKCRoyalsFan]

Nobody is born gay

[@louisdewit4429]

Why is a biological fact, Not harmful to anyone, a sinn ? I fear you’re being blasphemous.

[@rbfoster]

@@AbhijeetMishra if you reject Jesus just say that. No need to argue with Christians on the internet all day. You either believe the Bible or you don’t. Respect those who do if you don’t & move on.

[@RMJK727]

Klavan: you are born gay. Jesus: you must be born again.

[@gwenechotaylor96]

Touché. great discernment!

[@PanicGiraffe]

This applies to us all. We all hurt ourselves and our loved ones by our nature. That is not an excuse to sin.

[@gabrielduran291]

I thought religious folks thought life begins at conception 🙄 why are you even using the term born.

[@nova8091]

Do genetics change because of Jesus? Isn’t it easier to just say “you’re gay but gay acts are wrong” way quicker to the point that way.

[@nova8091]

Do genetics change because of Jesus? Isn’t it easier to just say “you’re gay but gay acts are wrong” way quicker to the point that way.

[@brandabrothers2127]

Sorry Heterosexuals fall in love “romantically” with people they can’t be with. That is not justification for sin. The excuse for almost every affair resulting divorce is “well we fell in love” what could we do, we can’t deny ourselves “love.”

[@Rayvvvone]

I have fallen in love many times. Twice with my daughters. I had no choice. Matt thinks that masturbation is "unnatural" and "wrong". He doesn't say why. He can't say why.

[@danielletracyann]

@@Rayvvvonebecause it’s LUST. It’s all about fulfilling the lust of the flesh. Why do you feel the need to do it? Are you going to die without it?

[@avishevin1976]

There's a vast difference between saying there are a subset of people you cannot consummate your love with and telling a person that they are forbidden from consummating their love with any human who ever lived, is living or will ever live. Christians are the cruelest.

[@brandabrothers2127]

@@avishevin1976 Well I’m heterosexual, 36 and single, and have never consummated my love with another person either. I can honestly say I’ve been in love too, but there is no entitlement or guarantee to love for anyone in this life. There are many Heterosexual people in the church that will live their whole lives without experiencing the joys a marriage and sex. I know the pain and the loneliness first hand, I’m no Catholic, but I believe that many nuns and persists that have felt the call to celibacy must feel pain and loneliness too. If you are speaking as someone who is married and enjoys marital intimacy you may want to consider that people you disagree with on the internet may have experiences of pain and loss and cruelty you know nothing about. I don’t ever want to diminish the pain and loneliness of any other human being no matter what their sexuality is and no person should be treated cruelly because they are attracted to someone of the same sex. I also don’t get to decide how another person gets to live, people make choices and they live with their choices. I believe there is a God who loves all men/women and is calling them all to himself through Jesus, and that call for everyone means dying to oneself, we are marked by what we hold onto to and what we refuse to surrender to Him.

[@bruno-bnvm]

​@@avishevin1976A subset? I'm not allowed to be with other men either... It's the same "subset" for everyone. This isn't about feelings or feelings nice. Christ didn't promise us to be "chill". Stop with the sobbing sentimentalist crap.

[@sjm9876]

1:40 doesn’t the fact that you can have 2 identical twins, with identical DNA, and one is gay and the other isn’t, seem to be evidence against a genetic component rather than in favor of it? I’m confused by Mr. Klavan’s statement

[@Rayvvvone]

Matt thinks that masturbation is "unnatural" and "wrong". He doesn't say why. He can't say why.

[@LauraTheLulu]

He’s talking about epigenetics, where environmental factors can influence gene expression, such as hormones in the womb (ie identical twins with separate placentas that can expose them to slight variations in hormone levels).

[@TimberSmokeCo]

Lol, I thought the same thing

[@fujikokun]

Identical twins actually seems to be a pretty good argument for it being environmental, as twins have the same genes but will have different experiences and relationships over the course of their childhood.

[@Rockstar5199]

@@Rayvvvone He has said why. It's basic stuff

[@covertjoy4021]

Matt, if ever you’d like to have me on to discuss this subject, I have firsthand experience. I entered my walk with Him as a “transgender woman” having gone through the full surgical process and, by His grace, was brought home to my true place as a son. I am excited to begin RCIA tomorrow after leaving a non-denominational “church”. The Lord’s will is certainly clear throughout His Holy Scriptures, and believe me, it is challenging at times when the old lust pops up, even with having my natural affections for women restored! But, God made it abundantly clear to me that His design of human sexuality is unchanging. We simply live in a fallen world. Praise be to God for his unfailing mercy! I look forward to my first Reconciliation, Holy Communion and Confirmation!

[@yeshua1st]

God bless you! Welcome home ❤

[@crabpeople3915]

"my son is gay" case closed. I do feel for the guy, that must be hard to live with. But "whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." Christianity ain't easy. Great video Matt!

[@samyrodriguez812]

@@crabpeople3915 great comment

[@mattcommons5033]

His son is not gay. Nobody is. That’s just a cop out.

[@kylehennen]

Christ ^ Spouse ^ Children

[@Longleke.]

Says the guy with a Fallout profile pic. Does Jesus approve of those rated M games and the violence and degeneracy depicted? It's funny how yall want to be of the world when it's things you like, but are quick to condemn gay people for the desires they can't help but feel.

[@Maksie0]

Disgusting cult.

[@oza1302]

I couldn't think of a more apt opportunity to treat someone with charity and truth. Those who know Andrew Klavan know he is not an enemy of the Church. It's pretty clear this is a tough issue for him. Let's be good Christians and state the truth in love. It's a heck of a cross his son has to bear and he wants to be there for him. No, I don't want him to pervert the Gospel. Yes, I want him to have the fullness of the truth. We can be an instrument to achieve that. So, let's be prudent in our words.

[@yawyeboah1682]

I concur

[@kentzepick4169]

@@oza1302 Amen to that. And blessings to you.

[@michaelclay7822]

@@oza1302 this comment should be pinned. We can speak the truth in love without being insulting or off putting. Every week we attend church with people who are compromising on on one matter or another. Attack them and you will not make them change, you will just make them leave. Live by example, speak the truth when asked about it. Give the same grace you would hope to receive.

[@willhelmberkly3025]

If they are not enemies of the church they why was I abused, humiliated, and denigrated my entire childhood by the secular fundamentalist that ran the my public school system?

[@michaelpawlik6091]

He doesn’t know. Ok, but that’s why we have Church doctrine.

[@benry007]

The part about remarriage is a hard pill to swallow. I chose poorly when I married, my wife was pretty unstable and bordered on abusive. I never would have left as I made a vow before God. But she ended up leaving me. Took me a while to get myself sorted after that. Its been about 2 years and we are still legally married. I made clear I wanted to go to counselling but she wouldn't go. We have no children thankfully (she changed her mind on wanting children after we married). I think I can handle singleness but never being a father is a hard pill to swallow. For those Christians reading please pray for me, that I would have wisdom to make the right decisions going forward. I am not a catholic but I am a Christian who sincerely believes in Christ and the infallibility of scripture.

[@Rayvvvone]

You believe in the infallibility of scripture. Matt thinks that masturbation is "unnatural" and "wrong". He doesn't say why. He can't say why.

[@fujikokun]

I will pray for you. As someone who has been through a lot of suffering recently, it can be helpful to remember that God does not accidentally let us suffer or allow hardship. It is for our good. Cry out to him, he will give you what you need. 🙏🏻

[@stefanielozinski]

God bless you. Praying for you.

[@gregchrysostom2193]

So, I want to start by saying that I am praying for you. I want to continue by saying that I really really admire your commitment to doing what's right, no matter the cost. And I want to conclude by saying that, as Matt notes in the video, the question of whether or not it's ok to divorce someone follows AFTER the question of whether or not you were validly married to them in the first place. Super important: A valid marriage implies several things - first and foremost, the free consent of one man and one woman who are both of age. Please note that people can be 30 chronological years old or 50 years old but have a, say, 10 year old mind. If your wife was "pretty unstable/borderline abusive", that strongly suggests to me that she herself was badly abused growing up and, in fact, has not yet actually done so (grown up). She may effectively be a 7 year old in a 30 year old's body. 7 year olds dont know what marriage is. And you can tell them what it is and they'll get it to the extent that 7 year olds can. But no 7 year old mind can truly grasp what "exclusive sexual commitment for life" means, for example. If you WERE Catholic, you would definitely have a case for an annulment. I would advise not taking that to mean a "slam dunk." A tribunal would have to look at the case more closely. But it wouldnt surprise me in the least if they looked at your case and said, "Not valid. Free to marry." Something to keep in mind.

[@pronghornhunter]

If you join the Catholic Church, you could possibly have your marriage (what appeared to be a valid marriage) annulled because of various problems with the union from the beginning. For instance, her lack of openness to children and serious mental instability may have been present when the "marriage" was contracted, thereby rendering the marriage dead on arrival (null and void). Have hope! Become a Catholic. You can get this sorted out with God's grace. You would be free to marry if you obtained a decree of nullity from the Church.

[@kristabradleymusic]

“Its not us versus them. Its us. All of us deal with perversions in our sexuality…” This. 100% this. 👏🙏💕

[@seekerhonest]

Sorry but claiming that homosexuality is a perversion is perverted. In their approach to a possible god/gods, ALL humans developed man-made religions with man-made mythologies and man-made morals. Christianity and Islam are also man-made religion spread by humans not by god. There are two dangers and harms in that game: 1 When one man-made religion claims to be the only right one and all others are false. 2 When religions claim their man-made morals are given or inspired by a god and by that unquestionable. We never got any morals from god, we have to figure that out on our own. As a Deist I send you a lot human love.

[@Pro-j4q]

Calling ho mose xual ity a pe rver sio n is per ver ted.

[@louisdewit4429]

@@kristabradleymusic - You can have your hetero way in let’s say regular way. You still call homos in a long term monogamous relationships perverted. Big huge difference and blatant discrimination from a very arrogant point of view . Heterosupremacy.

[@muma6559]

@@louisdewit4429 try compassion. Perversion is born out of abuse.

[@louisdewit4429]

@ - You mean heterosexuality ?! With all its power abuse.

[@tonyl3762]

There is no sex or marriage in heaven, and yet it is the ultimate happiness. How can that be? Because sex and marriage are not actually necessary for happiness. This fact is missing from this clip of the conversation. The joyful celibate are the greatest argument against the rationalizations for sodomy, adultery, porn, lust, etc.

[@Rayvvvone]

Matt thinks that masturbation is "unnatural" and "wrong". He doesn't say why. He can't say why.

[@dylanfluet8205]

I think in addition to your argument, we are given the sexual desire so that we may populate the earth, and there is no need to populate in heaven because we will be in perfect union with God. The sexual act between spouses embodies both the unitive and the procreative and since we are in perfect unity in heaven, we are therefore in union with God and his creative power.

[@dylanfluet8205]

@@Rayvvvone it’s unnatural and wrong because the sexual act is meant to embody 2 things. The unitive and the procreative, masturbation embodies neither of those.

[@fujikokun]

@@Rayvvvoneit’s wrong because it’s purely selfish. It serves no purpose other than self-pleasure. God created us for love, to love Him first and to love others. Even when we eat, we do it out of love, as we take in just enough to sustain our body in order that we may serve.

[@tonyl3762]

@@Rayvvvone Theology of the Body explains it and every other sexual teaching. Masturbating is an abuse of sexuality and both purposes of it, the unitive and procreative. Sex is for love of another.

[@sigurdholbarki8268]

As an Anglican and a father I sympathise with Andrew, but I have to agree with Matt and I applaud him for his sympathetic approach

[@Rayvvvone]

Matt thinks that masturbation is "unnatural" and "wrong". He doesn't say why. He can't say why.

[@arthurgrey8967]

@@Rayvvvone For the same reason homosexuality is wrong. They aren't separate violations of the 6th commandment just different ways of doing so, The violation is a separation between the lifegiving and love giving aspect of the marital act. Its not sex is bad. In marriage giving yourselves to one another is a sacramental act that bestows grace. It's an abuse of the sacrament to use it otherwise.

[@vincentthendean7713]

@@Rayvvvone He literally wrote a book saying why this is wrong and unnatural.

[@aae7583]

Andrew Klavan made a comment about an Anglican pastor during his "CHRIST THE KING" response vid.

[@AquinasBased]

@@Rayvvvone its all in humanae vitae buddy

[@BinaryTradingCo]

It's amazing to see 2 people whose views are different but they are still able to handle a conversation in a civilized and non offensive manner. Hats off to both.

[@jeremiahrogers100]

Yeah... if only more people in the comments could think that way, maybe use a little bit more humility and recognize that there is much uncertainty in life even in something as solid as religion. I don't know who is right, and neither do you. I may have a suspicion, or one that I agree with more, but I don't know with 100% certainty. I just think it's funny how many people in the comments manage to get so angry and hateful over something that I don't think can be fully understood by anyone.

[@leovaldez6139]

I was such a fan that each person let the other one talk and get their thoughts out

[@matthewmccullough1106]

"Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Me."

[@seekerhonest]

In their approach to a possible god/gods, ALL humans developed man-made religions with man-made mythologies and man-made morals. Christianity and Islam are also man-made religion spread by humans not by god. There are two dangers and harms in that game: 1 When one man-made religion claims to be the only right one and all others are false. 2 When religions claim their man-made morals are given or inspired by a god and by that unquestionable. We never got any morals from god, we have to figure that out on our own. As a Deist I send you a lot human love.

[@matthewmccullough1106]

@@seekerhonest - Haha! ok buddy.

[@zbysekomacka663]

U do u. Dont put ur nose in others bussines, bye

[@lovingsingleton1873]

If you believed that, you'd be celibate and telling people to leave their wives.

[@curateipsum8311]

This guy really said Saint Paul, in his inerrant inspired Word, is "cranky about sexuality" and "differs from Christ's view". The sheer pride and arrogance he has to speak about Saint Paul in such a manner is actually astounding.

[@fujikokun]

It’s so scandalous that I can hardly bear to hear it. Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on us.

[@georgeorwell3501]

Why do you call Paul a saint? Is that in the Bible somewhere I’m unawares of?

[@curateipsum8311]

@@georgeorwell3501 ​ Because he was canonized by the Church and Christianity is not a sola scriptura religion. That would be why I correctly refer to him as Saint Paul.

[@georgeorwell3501]

@@curateipsum8311 He was canonized (another non biblical term) to become a saint? By who? And what authority. I’m truly curious. Not trying to be a jerk and I’m sorry for calling you Kamala. That was not acceptable. I’m sorry.

[@nedskeezler]

@@georgeorwell3501 canonized in 1867 by Pope Pius IX.

[@graemeholliday3201]

Protestant here, Klavan's view doesn't represent our tradition on homosexuality or on divorce, so kudos to Matt for grilling him and asking good questions to pierce through the emotional arguments with logic.

[@TheHolyOnes33]

Who is "our"? There are hundreds of denominations that all disagree with homosexuality and divorce?

[@jesseg5902]

@@graemeholliday3201 I am sorry… did you say Protestants have a “tradition “🙄

[@NobleEdward]

Maybe you are a kinda protestant who doesn't believe in TULIP🤔

[@stevenniggs6358]

@@jesseg5902 I liked when he said "Logic", when talking about faith based beliefs

[@TimC1517]

As a confessional Lutheran, our tradition is the same as yours, before Rome strayed with things like the infallibility of the Pope, indulgences, keeping God’s word from the people, and all the other abuses that led to the reformation

[@Pumpkinpicker87]

This is the danger when people say, “I read the Bible differently than you do.” I’ve seen it in the Methodist Church, the Episcopalian Church, and perhaps a few others, where there is a tendency to condone homosexuality. It reflects an unwillingness to submit to God’s commandments, instead bending the rules either to make life easier or to feel better. In this case, the gentleman in question may indeed be a devout Christian, but it seems he is adjusting God’s laws to justify his son’s behavior and desires. This is precisely the kind of compromise we must keep out of the Church. Thank you, Matt, for defending the faith. God bless you and your channel.

[@Rayvvvone]

Matt thinks that masturbation is "unnatural" and "wrong". He doesn't say why. He can't say why.

[@bluecat4802]

Which commandments? Why might people disagree with you?

[@helwrecht1637]

@@Rayvvvoneplease seek help for your gooning addiction

[@ExpiditionWild]

Even Catholics read the Bible differently

[@bluecat4802]

I should also point out that you will rarely find two people with exactly the same interpretation of the Bible, and there are always divides even among the more high church traditions

[@junkmail8883]

Matt Fradd….you nailed it! We need more men like you who are willing to have a spine and give direct answers to questions. Your holy bluntness was admirable!!!

[@anthonymarchetta8796]

I actually appreciate this, because Klavan basically needs to admit that he just doesn't agree with the Bible on this issue. He's right; you need to reject Paul to accept Klavan's view.

[@Rayvvvone]

we should reject paul. Matt thinks that masturbation is "unnatural" and "wrong". He doesn't say why. He can't say why.

[@anthonymarchetta8796]

@@Rayvvvone To the contrary, it is quite simple and straightforward to say why, and Matt has explained it in the past. Check out Aquinas on this topic. Nevertheless, I'm glad you agree that we need to reject the Bible to hold this view.

[@ethanweber-rh3pr]

​@@anthonymarchetta8796Don't even bother with this guy. He has spammed this comment throughout the entire comment section

[@gch8810]

@@Rayvvvone Go be a heretic somewhere else.

[@aalitz]

@@anthonymarchetta8796 This is such an oversimplification. Saying that someone doesn’t subscribe to Paul’s view on a given topic doesn’t mean that one has rejected all of the Bible. In fact, we should be aware that the Bible presents various voices on most subjects and that none of these should be taken directly out of their own socio-historical context and applied without forethought to our day and age. Seeking the underlying principles and then applying those to our circumstances is what discernment is about.

[@GreasedDolphin]

Says Paul is cranky and then quotes “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” So arbitrary

[@seekerhonest]

In their approach to a possible god/gods, ALL humans developed man-made religions with man-made mythologies and man-made morals. Christianity and Islam are also man-made religion spread by humans not by god. There are two dangers and harms in that game: 1 When one man-made religion claims to be the only right one and all others are false. 2 When religions claim their man-made morals are given or inspired by a god and by that unquestionable. We never got any morals from god, we have to figure that out on our own. As a Deist I send you a lot human love.

[@GreasedDolphin]

@ this is full of self refuting assertions. How do you know ALL humans made religions? Can you prove that? Says who? Do you have access to ALL humans? And when you said “Morals don’t come from god, we need to figure them out” This is utterly asinine and incoherent. You’re saying x isn’t from Y but we need to figure out X on our own? Then what is the justification for morals? Where do they come from? What is their origin? Why OUGHT we figure out morals? Why ought I listen to you?

[@Pro-j4q]

@@GreasedDolphin

[@HopeBanda1221]

… Your affectionate uncle, Screwtape

[@GaserBeam-hi4ez]

😂

[@myfakinusername]

Damn 💯

[@richm5719]

High IQ comment

[@kit0690]

Oof. 👏🏼

[@KyrieEleison7]

Love It!

[@unknowntexan4570]

"Not ready to deprive someone based on a doctrine." Is the same as saying I know better than God.

[@js1817]

Probably more a lack of confidence in our ability to know such things. ie Is everything called doctrine true?

[@flunkiebubs2002]

god doesn't exist

[@VanchaMarch2]

Andrew, the truth is not dependent upon our ability to stomach it emotionally

[@rethinking_reality]

The same thing can be said about Catholics clinging to their belief in god despite a complete lack of evidence. You want to believe in it, so you do. It has more to do with your emotional comfort than it does honest “truth seeking”.

[@ProductBasement]

You might even say that "facts don't care about your feelings"

[@thewonderinggentile]

& i feel like him of ALL people knows this (if you've watched his show you know what I mean...)

[@nathanrobbins2440]

@rethinking_reality Look up the fine tuning argument for God. It is not the foundation of my faith, and it likely won't be convincing to you, but maybe at least you'll be able to see that it makes a whole lot of sense to believe in God

[@tonyl3762]

Kudos to you Matt for asking the tough questions charitably and offering prudent arguments.

[@ddrse]

Matt may actually come out. There's a reason why he talks about it a lot. In Psychology they call it sublimation

[@stevep6318]

@@ddrse Ummm no.

[@haydenmanthei4211]

@@ddrse lol He's just talking about it because it's such a big issue.

[@oza1302]

Don't you just admire a good Catholic who knows how to be truthful and charitable? Such a grace!

[@RealLichHoursss]

@@ddrse “I think murder is wrong” You: “this guys a killer!”

[@tmsods2874]

Don't be too harsh on him, this is a father defending his son. Rationalizing his personal situation. I agree with Matt but have empathy for Andrew and his son.

[@Dienekes678]

A position that would test the best of us, for sure. And yet the Truth can not and will not ever change.

[@fox1actual]

Nah. He’s older and should know better. The time for sensitivities is over. It’s part of the reason we’re in this mess.

[@zzc8505]

In fact, he’s harming his son in the long run by justifying it. It’s like enabling an alcoholic.

[@J..P..]

Hard truth is better than a soft lie.

[@sajansuganth8967]

Understood. At the same time, he is a public figure and a self-professing Christian who publicly disrespects St. Paul and the inerrancy of Scripture, potentially misleading the young and impressionable. If anyone should be corrected firmly, it is someone who has been afforded such a privileged position as to reach that many ears.

[@wifegrant]

Jesus did not tell us to police other people, especially non-believers. What ever other people do, is between them and God. Furthermore, I think it's disingenuous talking about homosexuality, when more than half the pastors and people in church are divorced or having affairs. All sins are equal. Except for blaspheming against the spirit... id est. Rejecting Christ.

[@1surfpesca_]

Agreed Jesus asked the Pharisees before he healed the man shriveled hand on the sabbath, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” And the Pharisees were silent, Blinded by their fervor of specific decrees they forsake the greatest decree from the Lord himself, that we LOVE EACH OTHER, AS HE LOVED US. That does not mean screaming at gay people that they are horrible. How about we show them the real Jesus, and then let Jesus find his way through that persons heart. I tend to agree with klavan… there is a purpose to gods order of things but you cannot deny that some people are just straight up born with the attraction to their own sex. Frad gets so close by saying that we all sin sexually, but continues with the absolutely fervent denial of the concept that maybe gay people should not be treated like completely others in Christian society…. That is what causes them to seek atheism and satanism. Watch channel 5s video on satanism. Young girl testifies that the satanist church did way more for her and her family in an abusive relationship than their local church did because of various unchristian reasons…. The whole thing of Jesus is that we don’t love him but he loves us… why do we then deny people any dignity simply because they aspouse different beliefs. Especially abortion… I get they see abortion as its own genocide but the other side literally does not see it like that…. So instead put your money where your mouth is and actually support families, and actually support people who are feeling like they are being othered for no good reason. That is Jesus call. It’s so frustrating seeing the fire and brimstone constantly. They lead gods people astray in their fervor

[@wifegrant]

@@1surfpesca_ 100%

[@CScott-wh5yk]

Homosexuality has an incredibly high correlation with childhood sexual trauma, so how can Klavan say it’s something you are born with?

[@js1423]

Source please? Klavan is referencing the work done by researchers like Ray Blanchard and J. Michael Bailey.

[@kailaleebabineau3962]

That's only one factor of many. I think some people were genetically born that way, some were exposed to exogenous hormones that disrupted sexual development, some were abused and some may just be lost and mistake the pride movement as an answer to their confusion

[@StramSaturdayDBDBDIB]

@@CScott-wh5yk that's false and not true. How do we know they weren't gay before the SA. Many men have been SA as kids and lived straight lives with a wife and kids. May I ask where you got your research from ? Its not the majority and that's honestly the craziest thing I heard.

[@js1423]

@@kailaleebabineau3962 People born that way are actually gay. There are straight people in prison or the military who engage in same sex-acts due to the lack of mates. It’s the orientation that matters more than the behavior in terms of defining

[@pukupuku]

It doesn’t even have to be sexual trauma, it can also be emotional or family-based trauma that leads to a confused sexuality. Sexuality is fully mutable. I’ve witnessed gay people on several occasions make advances on the opposite sex, from flirting to one-night-stands. When I hit puberty, I was same-sex attracted, but I’ve only been in opposite-sex relationships since and have no intention of living differently. I don’t feel like I’ve missed out.

[@jaredwilson1938]

The enemy rarely tries to sell you the opposite of the truth. He takes something true, and good, and beautiful, and twists it a little. Then he tries to convince you it’s not that different from what is true, but almost right is still wrong and almost obeying the law is still breaking it.

[@CountArtha]

Well said.

[@callum7081]

Thats what hes doing making christians hate gay people, genius move by the devil make them think they are moral by not loving their neighbour.

[@shanahendricks9831]

My discernment is telling me that deep down he doesn't truly believe what he is saying. Not sure if anyone else is seeing that

[@Rayvvvone]

Matt thinks that masturbation is "unnatural" and "wrong". He doesn't say why. He can't say why.

[@thewalruswasjason101]

He’s conflicted because his own son is gay

[@martijnnvermeulen7515]

​@@Rayvvvonehe is a roman catholic. He thinks masturbation is wrong and unnatural because he believes sexuality has two purposes: to produce children and to unite two peoplenin a loving union. These things can't be separated. And masturbation actually achieves none of these things

[@leekflower1]

​@@Rayvvvone that he didn't elaborate doesn't mean he can't 🤦

[@fujikokun]

@@Rayvvvonestop spamming this.

[@calumapdruumond]

huge respect to Matt for gentle correction and again articulating the Church's teaching with compassion but force

[@meganhermosillo6689]

"I'm not sure Paul gets it the way Christ gets it" sounds like he doesn't believe the Bible is the infallible word of God but is written by man if "Paul doesn't get it right". How sad but does explain where he's at in his faith journey 😢

[@Chuck26814]

Yea crazy if he’s a Christian considering Paul has so many letters in the NT

[@garrettkalinowski7618]

"Paul who was recruited by the risen Christ directly doesn't understand Christ but I definitely do." - Modern "Christians"

[@bearistotle2820]

​@@RayvvvoneWhy are you spamming this comment exact wording and all?

[@MargaretS-e1g]

He's protestant. Scott Hahn said they literally think the bible is a fallible collection of infallible books.

[@gregchrysostom2193]

Paul himself explains that it's not all quite as simple as "it's the word of God. Period." 1 Cor 7:12-13 (emphasis mine), "To the rest I say this (I, NOT THE LORD): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him."

[@garrettkalinowski7618]

Leviticus 18:22 NKJV You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. Matthew 19:4-6 NKJV And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.” Claiming that Jesus (who is God, John 1:1) is not against something that God clearly plain as day states in Leviticus implies some sort of change or division in the Trinity (Malachi 3:6 NKJV “For I am the Lord, I do not change..."; Hebrews 13:8 NKJV Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.) making this a fundamentally blasphemous and antichristian statement. Jesus GAVE Moses the law. He IS the author of the law. Read your Bible. Exod 31:18 NKJV And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God. John 8:6 NKJV This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with HIS FINGER, as though He did not hear.

[@cpf2838]

We pray for Andrew's journey towards the Truth. May God guide him all the way.

[@s_hrndz0119]

Matthew 10:37 “He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.”

[@Cws7187]

He is the same guy that said Jews don’t need Christ so I’m not surprised

[@lloydbraun6026]

Yup. He doesn’t understand that the Hebrews/Jews are no longer the chosen. That covenant ended with Christ. The modern day Jews are basically all rabbinical/Talmudic and that sect was created 200 years after Christ. They are not much different than Muslims and they share the same hatred of Christians

[@Tennysystem]

When did he say that?

[@calamaridog]

Why the hell would the Jews need Christ? They have been God's chosen for over 1500 years before Jesus. Nothing has changed there. Jesus was a Jew and he chose to be a King for all people, instead of just being a King for the Jews. And now you can benefit and become a Christian.

[@AZ1306AZ]

Good on you Matt. You had that conversation really well. You were kind and sympathetic. But you also didnt hold back from stating the truth and explaining it in a very clear way. That's just the way to do it.

[@obl7vi0n]

Your based conservative, sir.

[@folofus4815]

*xir

[@JohnnyNada]

Conservatives aren't based

[@1jasonmurray1]

Jesus didn’t teach on homosexual acts because his primary audience was the Jews. Jews who already knew homosexual acts are an abomination to God according to the Torah. Paul’s ministry was for the Gentiles who had no knowledge of what the Torah taught regarding homosexual acts. Paul wasn’t just cranky ;).

[@makokx7063]

So everything Jesus preached was new information that was not in the Torah then? If he preached anything that was already accepted and adhered to by the Jews than your argument is void.

[@1jasonmurray1]

@@makokx7063 no it’s not void, he taught on new and old things. Some things needed to be relearned and actually dialed up which he did. He taught on murder but when way further if you hate your brother then you have committed murder already. He taught on adultery and says if you even lust you already committed adultery. He didn’t teach on child m*olestation either so in your view should we be allowed to m*lelest children too? I surely hope not. Jesus did affirm one man and one woman. If he approved of anything other than that I think he would have mentioned it. Instead he does like he always does and amplified what is in the Torah. So don’t try to justify sin and make doctrine out of silence. We have the words of Jesus as well as those who directly knew Jesus teachings. We should abide by all of it.

[@makokx7063]

@@1jasonmurray1 "He didn’t teach on child m*olestation either so in your view should we be allowed to m*lelest children too?" No, because I'm actually a moral human being, not some person who needs a book written by desert nomads to tell him what to do and is only good to get reward/avoid punishment like Christians. Your god also said slavery is cool Exodus 20-21 Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property. If you are a true believer and follower of God you cannot deny slavery and to modern man you are evil.

[@anon_genz]

Even if same sex attraction is genetic, that still wouldn't make it right. We all have genetic predisposition we shouldn't act on, and rightly, because self control is what's expected from adults.

[@PolishRoman]

It's not genetic. He shows and undermines his point when he brought up the twin studies. What he conflates is the twin's experience being the same and that is where his analysis fails. Each twin has their own experiences even if they have the "same upbringing."

[@aae7583]

@@PolishRoman this comment 👍.

[@anon_genz]

@@PolishRoman I agree. My point was to show that even if we granted his false assumption, he still would be wrong in his conclusion.

[@PolishRoman]

@@anon_genz I actually agree with you, I wrote it hastily. I apologize for the confusion.

[@JonWRowe]

@@PolishRoman: Then handedness isn't genetic. Because identical twins have similar discordance rates re left v. right handedness.

[@master_samwise]

The one point I wish Matt had pushed back on/asked for clarification is when Andrew talked about “romantic feelings/attraction.” What exactly are those? What are they ordered towards? A man cannot be attracted to another man in the same way he is attracted to a woman. The end of love between the sexes is “unity and procreation.” The same obviously cannot be said for same-sex attraction. What did Andrew mean when he talked about said “love”? That’s a question I don’t think gets asked enough.

[@hidargy]

I know a woman who married a disabled man. She was fully aware that they will not have children because of his disability. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your line of thought seems to suggest that her love and decision to marry was somehow misguided. It's difficult to define romantic love, but it's certainly very different than just a biological urge to procreate or even a conscious decision to do so.

[@master_samwise]

@@hidargy Not at all. It's very clear in the Catechism that an openness to life is more important than the actual ability to procreate. The physical act of sex between man and woman is still ordered toward procreation even if, for whatever reason, procreating isn't possible.

[@hidargy]

@@master_samwise I hope you won't mind me pushing further a bit. I myself am new to the doctrines but curious and willing to be taught. So there is my question - if theoretical openness to life is more important (and I call it theoretical because of the example of my acquaintances - who are open, but at the same time very aware that it's going to be objectively fruitless anyway) then technically SSA people can be very open too, but choose a relationship which they know to be fruitless. It's the same romantic urge to have a phisical bond and the same knowledge beforehand.

[@master_samwise]

@@hidargy Not at all! So, if I'm not mistaken, the crucial piece to examine is what the given sexual act is ordered toward. Vaginal sex is ordered toward procreation - the impossibility of creating a child does not change the nature of the act. Any other sexual act is ordered merely toward the pleasure of the involved parties. I'm not very good at explaining this, unfortunately. Humanae Vitae is a much better resource if you want a good understanding of the Church's teaching.

[@hidargy]

@@master_samwise thanks for the answer. I guess I'll have to go and dig for it further. Or maybe someone can join in and explain some finer points here. It seems to me that all sex is primarily geared to procreation. That's the biological reason for it. Bonding and pleasure is secondary. So in case of lovers being aware of impossibility to have children but still willing to bond in intimacy, why the form of sex would even matter? For example, is there a difference what kind of sex infertile couple is having?

[@fujikokun]

Matt can you please ban the guy who is spamming every comment with the same exact comment about masturbation

[@luisfed97]

He says masturbation is wrong... but he can't REALLY say WHYYYY. (I'm kidding)

[@thereadaloudlady]

Yeah Matt has absolutely explained it many times.

[@yeshua1st]

​@@luisfed97😂😂😂😂😂

[@jenniferflower9265]

My mom’s gay. She came out when I was 12. It was very hard on me. I love her and know, as an adult, she meant no harm to me but it really did affect me.

[@jiayouchinese]

8:16 It's not only a sin to act upon it, but to think it. Jesus said to think lustful thoughts is to commit adultery in your heart, so you must let him change your thoughts to pure ones.

[@businessacc179]

I caught that as well.

[@ryanfilkins324]

I could be wrong, but I don't think that's what Matt was saying. Rather, I think he's talking about temptation. The temptation to do wrong is not a sin (even Jesus was tempted). It's entertaining the temptation that's a sin. For example, if I were to see a beautiful woman, I may be tempted with lust, but if I rebuke that temptation and move on, I have not sin.

[@mohawk3371]

I'm Jewish, so I can't speak to the New Testament, and the debate about whether Paul's Gospel is regarded by Christians as the word of God, or merely divinely inspired. However, I'm not sure how Andrew gets around Leviticus. The 5 books of Mosses, and particularly, the first 4 books are regarded by Judaism, and would have surely been regarded by Jesus, as direct revelation from God, and it is unambiguous about its stance on male homosexuality. Also Andrew is mistaken when he says its more than same sex attraction, as it involves profiund romantic love. You are attracted to physical characteristics, but you fall in a love with a specific person, not a group of physical characteristics. It may not be possible for a gay man to wholly change the nature of his sexuality and become sexually desirous of women, but he can love a woman.

[@BeatsAndMeats]

This one is easy… the Old Testament is completely ignored. Nothing in it matters to anyone about anything. The purpose of sending Jesus to earth was to destroy the legalistic manner in which the Old Testament operated, as it was untenable… run by a vicious, hateful, jealous God.

[@m.f.5739]

​@@BeatsAndMeatsSo you would say the 10 commandments are irrelevant? They're in the Old Testament.

[@BeatsAndMeats]

@@m.f.5739 Yes that’s what I’m saying. However, 9 of the 10 Commandments are repeated in the New Testament, which is God’s NEW covenant with man. But quite frankly I don’t trust any man’s word, except for Jesus Himself. If Jesus didn’t say it, then it’s just conjecture or, more likely, prejudice. When you make it to the Pearly Gates and have your first convo with Jesus, how many times is He going to say “I NEVER said that!”… I think it’ll be quite a lot.

[@m.f.5739]

@@BeatsAndMeats If you trust Jesus, you keep God's commandments. That's what he says in Matthew 5:17-20. What you're saying is in direct contradiction to what Jesus taught. For another reason, you cannot truly follow Jesus and not follow the Bible. Jesus is God, and the Bible is God's word. Disconnecting Jesus from the Bible means ultimately questioning his divinity.

[@KatAdVictoriam]

@mohawk3371 Your second paragraph is 100%. There is nothing "profoundly Romantic" (or even requiring such) about sexual desire/lust/perversions/proclivities. You can lust and have a preference for one thing and still find very fulfilling, happy, stable, romantic love in a marriage with a person not meeting whatever that sexual preference is. This applies to SSA and Heterosexuals. Absolutely. SSA people are not special or exempt from the same laws and expectations as everyone else.

[@tober0432]

I find Klavan's empathy and grace to be a lot more powerful than the simple condemnation of so many of these comments... Life is so much more complicated than simply following a list of rules.

[@jessejohnson9647]

@@tober0432 Life can get a lot more complicated when certain rules are ignored. Then people tend to appreciate why the rule was there in the first place. Which is why it’s more empathetic and graceful to suggest people honor the rule instead of complicating their lives by ignoring the rule.

[@AliciatheCho]

Jesus said, “If you love me, follow my commandments (John 14:15).”

[@An_Drea_Calling]

1:48 if they are identical and he claims it is genetic, wouldn't both twins have to be gay for the gene-argument to work?

[@jackistooloud]

Matt’s views on sexuality are quite perverse

[@jamieclements7954]

This guy is a perfect example of what is wrong , he claims to be a Christian and then redefines what being a Christian means to apply to himself, rather than believing he needs to be transformed to the Truth.

[@LabyrinthKeeper]

I thought Klaven was Jewish

[@calamaridog]

There are 30,000 Christian denominations but I imagine you think your particular cult is correct and since it doesn't match Andrew Klavans views he is some sort of imposter?

[@hannahalexie5158]

The thing is... it doesn't matter what we believe as an individual. The TRUTH is what matters. Andrew talks like many who say "well I believe this, I believe that, I don't think that is right, etc." Matt talks like a true believer and follower of Christ. Sure it might be difficult to have to stand by God's word, but he does. It actually takes a great deal of intelligence to follow, not lead. Andrew talks like he is to lead, Matt talks like he is to follow. God can be our only true leader.

[@lonestarstate6570]

Probably going to sound like a broken record, Jesus makes it explicitly clear if you look at a woman and lust for her you have committed adultery in the heart. That is a sin.

[@Drspeiser]

My son is a murderer. I don't think the church has gotten it right on murder. I think some people are born that way and that the church is too mean to those people.

[@charliej600]

Switch ‘son’ to ‘daughter’ and you have the same argument many use to justify abortion.

[@central_scrutinizr]

In your analogy, how is the choice to murder another person anywhere near the same thing as wanting to experience love with another consenting person, within the category of people you are attracted to through no choice of your own?

[@koala-py7uy]

@@central_scrutinizr Sin is sin. Only Catholics make degrees of sin, the Bible does not.

[@jimeatscorn6628]

@@Drspeiser False equivalence.

[@ScrunchBug22]

One thing I wont ever understand is when evangelical Christians say gay folks aren’t born that way, yet they also claim they and all are born into sin. So which is it? If someone is really born gay, then why couldn’t some also be born a murderer? And why all the talk just about actions and behavior rather than issues of the heart? Maybe some people hooked up with someone their own gender as a kid because they were afraid of their mom or dad and only found solace and comfort in the company of whoever was there at the time. Who knows?! None of these videos or debates ever ask enough questions because people’s lives are too chaotic and complex to make full sense of.

[@dukemydogy]

Well, as a gay dude that randomly came across this in my recomended all I can say is that its a tough listen.

[@thefangster]

I’m sorry that you came across it unexpectedly. Are these topics you’ve ever considered?

[@sajansuganth8967]

The truth is always difficult at the time, but it will always reap a benefit in the long term. Lies are comfortable at the time but they always destroy you in the end. With truth comes difficulty and freedom. A burden and a reward.

[@dragonhold4]

@dukemydogy According to Rosaria Butterfield ... Step 1: Don't identify self by [transgressions of the Higher Law] Step 2: Hate [transgressions of the Higher Law]

[@joyhenry-dp8nd]

As Christians we know that our identity comes in being made in the image of God and that the salvation from Jesus brings healing as each of us who are born again through baptism and strive for holiness in cooperation with God’s grace through the sacraments. I hope you can pick up some theology of the body by John Paul II. Christopher west, Jason Evert and Kim zember might be helpful. They have books, lectures, KZbin videos. :) I hope you can take a look at them and the comfort that Jesus brings to each of us as we each strive for holiness. 💙

[@user-og6hl6lv7p]

You need to fix your community bro, otherwise history is going to repeat. I do not say with pleasure at all.

[@josephnielsen123]

Way to go Matt. Excellent example of how to stand strong.

[@arose4u2]

Heterosexuals: Did you chose to be attracted to the opposite sex?

[@koppite9600]

Is sleeping around a choice? Asking for someone who was born that way

[@danielhicks4826]

No, but Homosexuality is both a sin and has zero biological/spiritual imperative/function, your point is a fair gotcha take but it's a category error.

[@m.f.5739]

And did they choose to be attracted to just one woman for the entirety of their life? No, instinctively, a human wants to have sex with as many attractive partners as possible. The standard is still a different one.

[@arose4u2]

@ No…no if your litmus test is just “attractive partner” and not gender or sex based then I hate to break it to you, but you aren’t straight.

[@KimChi-wz7mk]

Andrew knows in his heart the truth. His relationship with his son is on the line. He's trying to hold that together. I would not want to be in his position and it's terribly unfortunate. However, the Bible is clear. Better to struggle for Christ and be right with God than struggle against Christ and not be right with God.

[@monicadevine3668]

but if he lies to his son he doesn't truly love him, love hurts. Appeasement vs truth. Spencer is smart enough to get this. His father might be the only person keeping him from making his peace with God.

[@KimChi-wz7mk]

@@monicadevine3668 Yes. He is lying to his son. It is complicated but yes. He does love his son though, clearly.

[@404_____9]

There are many examples of same-sex-attracted people who have left that lifestyle and gotten happily married, like Rosaria Butterfield. Though I can’t speak for what God does for everyone, I believe that if sought correctly God can help people fight against their sinful desires and walk the path that God wishes them to walk. (Not to say it’ll be easy. Our lives are a battlefield of spiritual warfare.) This includes same sex attracted people being able to enter romantic relationships and eventually marriage with the opposite sex as God intended.

[@chrisknoblock]

Regardless of what Paul said, Jesus said he came to fufill the law and the prophets, not destroy them. Jesus is God, the son. God instituted the Levitical laws, God ordered sex for marriage alone.

[@stewartdando7755]

I respect Christians that are honest about what the bible says about homosexuality. Simply, it condemns it. So, no sugar-coating, just say it, say it out loud. That said, I think this view is disgusting. People are born gay. leave them alone. And please, spare me the 'We don't hate the sinner, we hate the sin..' bullsh$T. That's the most evil form of casuistry...

[@MiniLinlin]

People born with either sexual attraction can become happy doing other things, you know? I know heterosexual Christians who later lived happily while single. Surely we can at least say that to gay people that may want to know about Christianity? Singleness is fine to us. "Leave them alone" doesn't seem to be something even some gay people do for all Christians.

[@giovanniluigifabbri3090]

Not sure how he got from "you have identical twins, one will be gay, the other won't" to "there's a genetic component to it, it runs in families".

[@EIA-Observer]

Forgive me for forgetting the details, I think Mike Winger covered the story on his series on homosexuality. But if I remember correctly, there's been more than one instance of gay scientists trying to prove evidence that their attraction is genetic. In one tragic instance, one committed suicide following the death of his partner and the failure to justify that their relationship was "natural," as far as determined by genetics.

[@giovanniluigifabbri3090]

@@EIA-Observer That's interesting, though also tragic, and I'm sorry for the fellow. I think that, as far as we know, there is no single genetic factor that determines homosexual attraction. There may very well be genetic factors that tilt the odds that way, but as far as wholly determined by genetics, I don't think so. In fact, I remember that a couple years back an article was published which examined the genetic make-up of two very large groups of straight and gay people, and could not find a single gene or genetic combination uniquely associated with homosexuality. Which is consistent with the fact that, in pairs of identical twins, the odds of them being both gay is (if I'm not mistaken) about 50%, with a confidence interval of +/-10%, i.e. random.

[@olfpharmacy65]

"A genetic component, it runs in families" - maybe that's "generational sins" which attracted generational evil spirits. Catholic Exorcists know this, that's why there's what they call intergenerational healing or healing of the family tree.

[@LarryXLR]

He doesn't sound like he understands "Be in the world, but not of the world"

[@ryanfisher848]

Where is that in the Bible?

[@shane9287]

@@ryanfisher848 Google it

[@seekerhonest]

In their approach to a possible god/gods, ALL humans developed man-made religions with man-made mythologies and man-made morals. Christianity and Islam are also man-made religion spread by humans not by god. There are two dangers and harms in that game: 1 When one man-made religion claims to be the only right one and all others are false. 2 When religions claim their man-made morals are given or inspired by a god and by that unquestionable. We never got any morals from god, we have to figure that out on our own. As a Deist I send you a lot human love.

[@szymonstelter8399]

Thank you Matt for defending hard teachings. I find a bit sad when Christians look down on celibacy and glorify romantic relationships. To be celibate is not to be alone or to love less, but to love more. This has definitely been my experience after committing to this lifestyle as a lay person for 7 years now.

[@KFish-bw1om]

So basically Andrew Klavan is not a Christian then. In the first few seconds he juxtaposed Paul with Jesus. Of course, the only reason that we know what Paul has said about anything. Is because the resurrected Christ specifically chose him and the Holy Spirit inspired him to write a significant portion of the New Testament. Those writings are all we have of what Paul has said, but more importantly those writings are a part of what God has said. To pit Paul against Jesus, and claim that they are in disagreement on anything, is essentially to claim that Christianity is false. You can't believe what Andrew Klavan just stated, and still be a Christian, it is explicitly anti-Christian. You don't get to just clip the red letters out of your Bible and invent your own Jesus, then call yourself a Christian. Putting Scripture against Scripture is satanic in nature. It's literally the only weapon that Satan has against the Word of God, which is why it is exactly what he used to try to tempt Jesus.

[@Tennysystem]

I think you're being rather obtuse. You can be wrong about doctrine and scriptural matters and still be Christian.

[@KFish-bw1om]

@@Tennysystem Yes, you can be wrong about some doctrinal issues and still be a Christian. Not about this though. You can't put Paul against Jesus. That's not how Scripture works. Paul's writings are the inspired word of God. If you deny them, not just misunderstand them, but deny them. Then you are denying the word of God, and you are definitionally not a Christian.

[@G1stGBless]

Stop it k-fish. Stop. You are not the arbiter of Mr Klavans soul. You cannot possibly think you deserve that throne. You can say how much you disagree and that his views are dangerous or heretical, but you cannot take a man who trusts in the risen Christ for his salvation and bury him out of hand for having a blindspot with his son. Horribly uncharitable.

[@danielhicks4826]

Klaven is at the end of the day just another compromiser who also is struggling with choosing between being an actual Christian and identifying as a racial/ethnic Jewish person personally would be my guess anyways just speculation but a side issue. And then of course his son is gay so he chooses that over the Bible etc. etc. He can't even comprehend what's actually sad about his sons life...it's not that he's excluded or not "tolerated" by all its that he's living an abominable wicked sinful life and is to blind and wicked to even recognize it. And yes God will judge all homosexuals who choose to continue to live in that and don't repent the Bible is the word period there's no " but my sons gay and he "loves his pretend cosplay husband" exemption from judgement period and unconditionally, it's a shame people like Klaven are such cowards on such serious sins..But they sit around affirming Dave Rubens despicable sin and even congratulating him and his pretend "husband on using some desperate woman as a rent a womb and support homosexuals being allowed to adopt children to so what do you expect ya know.

[@myhatmygandhi6217]

@@KFish-bw1om nah, he's still a practicing Christian. No one is free of sin.

[@kurtnotafed4645]

That is St Paul to you

[@youngKOkid1]

I love this meme 😂

[@fox1actual]

“They professed to be wise, they became fools” - Romans 1:22

[@seekerhonest]

In their approach to a possible god/gods, ALL humans developed man-made religions with man-made mythologies and man-made morals. Christianity and Islam are also man-made religion spread by humans not by god. There are two dangers and harms in that game: 1 When one man-made religion claims to be the only right one and all others are false. 2 When religions claim their man-made morals are given or inspired by a god and by that unquestionable. We never got any morals from god, we have to figure that out on our own. As a Deist I send you a lot human love.

[@chrisharrelson178]

Romantic love is one of the great consolations of life… provided it’s in a legitimate marriage. I’m not married and I refrain from sexual acts on the basis of doctrine.

[@chrisharrelson178]

I think what he is actually saying is Im not going to prevent someone from committing mortal sin on the basis of divine revelation.

[@IzakD8]

Listened to Klavan for 5 minutes so far and all I can say is thank God for the Magisterium.

[@rubenmartinez4346]

Exactly. Everytime a Protestant explains Christianity I thank God for the Catholic Church.

[@Jozeemoss]

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

[@PsychoBible]

This is painful to watch Klavan grasp at straws.

[@seekerhonest]

In their approach to a possible god/gods, ALL humans developed man-made religions with man-made mythologies and man-made morals. Christianity and Islam are also man-made religion spread by humans not by god. There are two dangers and harms in that game: 1 When one man-made religion claims to be the only right one and all others are false. 2 When religions claim their man-made morals are given or inspired by a god and by that unquestionable. We never got any morals from god, we have to figure that out on our own. As a Deist I send you a lot human love.

[@njhoepner]

There is no necessary connection between religion and morality. Morality is pretty straightforward - it starts with don't harm others - while religion starts with arbitrary rules imposed by some "god" with no moral content.

[@seekerhonest]

@@njhoepner Thats why I think morals are all man-made, based on knowledge, experience and agreements.

[@njhoepner]

@@seekerhonest Exactly. Adding religion to it is just a trick to try and get a bunch of meaningless hangups accepted as "morality."

[@seekerhonest]

@@njhoepner Thats basically it.

[@js1817]

Christians are just gonna look at your deist post and shrug their shoulders. It's funny how people feel the need to share their religious opinions but by and large others don't care. Quirk of human psychology.

[@duals-growthofculture2085]

Great job, Matt. Way to speak the Truth in Love. God bless

[@IamAFishAlien]

Matt is so consistent. Such a blessing to have you representing the catholic faith on youtube. God bless your family brother.

[@bryanpeters5034]

Yeah. Nobody talks about the guys who are born with the deep-seated desire to exploit widows and orphans or to defraud the workman. I mean, sure the Bible says here or there that it's not ok, but scripture gets cranky about a lot of things, you know? I'm not sure it's for us to be telling others, "Hey, your natural-born need to exploit the helpless is completely disordered and must stop."

[@NathanSkifton]

Sola Scriptura Protestants saying a writer of the Bible didn’t understand the Gospel is becoming increasingly common nowadays. I’ve also heard James didn’t understand the Gospel because he wrote before he talked to Paul or something.

[@levrai944]

I think that in the 21st century the fumes of Protestantism is running out and now it’s gotten crazier than ever and that’s not a bad thing, people are heading back to traditional Christianity/ Catholicism

[@TimberSmokeCo]

To say Klavan is a Sola Scriptura Protestant is a little disingenuous. In this interview he even says that the Gospel accounts don’t match up and that Paul is in error. I don’t think it’s a fair claim to those who do hold to Sola Scriptura who disagree with Klavan on this

[@clivejungle6999]

One day you will have a gay Pope. Then you will have to fall into line and kiss his ring. Sola Scriptura means I dont care what some guy with a funny hat says, I dont have to accept clear heresy.

[@NathanSkifton]

@@clivejungle6999 Nice dodge, but unfortunately, there was no substance to what you said. Popes are called to be celibate, so even heterosexual popes have to control their sexual desires. Curious that you didn’t condemn Prots that use Sola Scriptura while also condemning actual Bible writers for having a poor understanding of Scripture. Bible writers > random modern Protestants’ opinions.

[@NathanSkifton]

@@TimberSmokeCo It’s definitely fair to say Klavan isn’t strictly Sola Scriptura, but my understanding is he isn’t exactly ecclesial or apostolic either. That being said, this claim of Paul not fully grasping Jesus’s message is becoming increasingly common and not by Catholics or Orthodox. I stand by that part.

[@tkosich]

Great responses, Matt! Very well said. Kudos to Andrew for his honest participation in this interview.

[@blaiseaimee7098]

Homosexuality is "carried by the Mother and occurs in the womb"?????? I'm embarrassed for him🤐

[@seekerhonest]

In their approach to a possible god/gods, ALL humans developed man-made religions with man-made mythologies and man-made morals. Christianity and Islam are also man-made religion spread by humans not by god. There are two dangers and harms in that game: 1 When one man-made religion claims to be the only right one and all others are false. 2 When religions claim their man-made morals are given or inspired by a god and by that unquestionable. We never got any morals from god, we have to figure that out on our own. As a Deist I send you a lot human love.

[@alqoshgirl]

I’ve always found klavan to be hypersexual to the point it’s disturbing. Reason I stopped listening to his podcast about a couple years ago. He seems to put sex on a pedestal and misconstrue what it actual means on a sacred level. Of course if that’s your view the most cruel thing would be not to have one experience sex in life. It’s a very perverted view of the holiness of sex and the intention behind it

[@blaiseaimee7098]

Something weird going on with him. Many SSA people have trauma in childhood from SA....just sayin...maybe that's why Andrew is denying Jesus and the Bible to promote an "anything your heart desires" sex life. His son's gayness wasn't created in his mother's womb, but perhaps by his father's hand.

[@sandrasummers5975]

One of his favorite sayings is, that you're always two drinks and a wink away from cheating...I can't relate to that at all, and neither can my husband. Klavan clearly is obsessed with sex, so he's giving his son's sexual actions a pass. However, male homosexual acts are highly destructive, not only to the soul, but to the physical body.

[@MiniLinlin]

Happily celibate Christians being thrown under the bus by such a view too. Doesn't it seem like people who are way too focused on sex just want to look down on us?

[@republiccooper]

Just adding: homosexuality is psychological and spiritual. We have no example or evidence of genetic determination. It's a myth. People born guy? Yes, it's possible. But what does it matter? There's such a thing as prenatal conditioning and generational consequence (curses and blessing). It still doesn't mean the Holy Spirit can't change things for that person (see the section of the gospel with the man born blind from the womb and Jesus' response).

[@makokx7063]

Except genetics and conditioning are real and "the holy spirit" was made up by some guys who used to bang goats.

[@aalitz]

This is an extremely oversimplified view of genetics. In fact, most scientists say that there is a “genetic component” to homosexuality, but that doesn’t mean that everyone with this kind of predisposition turns out to be gay. (The same can be said of any genetic predisposition.) Moreover, sexuality is not dual, but is experienced on a spectrum, with some people heterosexual, others homosexual, still others bisexual or perhaps more fluidly switching within a certain range throughout the course of their lifetime. None of this has anything to do with a person’s faith or righteousness; it is merely the natural diversity found across the human population. So, perhaps there’s no need to attribute heterosexuality to anything inherently “more spiritual” or “redeemed”. Both heterosexual and homosexual relationships can be truly loving and conducive to one’s thriving in life; they can equally both be a place of misery, pain, and spiritual death.

[@republiccooper]

@aalitz cancer has a genetic component that can be turned on it if by genetic factors. While not saying homosexuality is a cancer, I do wonder if homosexuality is like that.

[@aalitz]

@@republiccooper Any genetic component is likely to be extremely complex. And let’s be clear that genetics doesn’t account for “undesirable” things only (like cancer), but also for much else that we love and appreciate about ourselves. That is to say, that we cannot use genetics to say that homosexuality is necessarily a flaw in the system. It could easily be a neutral variation, much like eye or skin color, blood type, body type, etc.

[@danielhicks4826]

Even if they were"born gay" it would still be a wicked sin to overcome not give into and compromise and openly have pride and partake in. So even if we give them that and that's a big if it is not a real counter argument with weight. People and counselors and others have also said I have and many others a predisposition to alcohol and drugs to......ok....well I still choose to use them or not and that's on me for example. Likewise with sexual sins.

[@Dimi374]

Great discussion!!♥️

[@jeremygardner3183]

I’m not surprised Klavan has this opinion after he said Shapiro shouldn’t accept Christ.

[@njhoepner]

Morality: straightforward, pretty simple, based on not doing harm to others...and to be more moral, do good to others when you can. A five-year-old can explain it with ease. "Sin": a set of purely arbitrary rules that have nothing to do with morality, just a reflection of the hangups of a set of people clever enough to get others to believe they speak for a "god." It of course requires endless debates between experts in a set of dusty old books dedicated to keeping the world bound in the bronze age as much as possible.

[@js1817]

The test for sin would be that it makes your life worse. If we could study scientifically whether homosexuals were less content in a monogamous reltionship than hetrosexuals, controlling for poverty, abuse, etc., I'd be interested to see the results.

[@njhoepner]

@@js1817 I don't agree. Lots of things can make your life worse that have nothing to do with sin...illness, new neighbors, losing one's job, a change at ones job, etc etc. Also, "worse" is a pretty broad statement and is pretty subjective. Divorce might be held to be worse than marriage, but in an abusive marriage divorce is a positive good. Whether or not homosexual marriages are statistically more "successful" than heterosexual ones (however one defines success) is not relevant. Are they harming anyone else, yes or no? If not, and they freely chose their relationship, then morality is satisfied - even if the relationship is not monogamous. "Sin" might say lots of other things, but sin is not morality.

[@js1817]

@njhoepner Of course lots of things make people's life worse that aren't sin. Natural evils (floods, fires, earthquakes) are not related to sin. Also, no reason to believe that those afflicted with illness are sick because they sinned. My point was that what the Church defines as sin really is harmful; it's not an arbitrary list of useless prohibitions. e.g. lying breaks trust and destroys relationships, so does bad pride (vainglory) or envy. In Christian thought, a true sense of sin and a true vision of moral truth are the same thing. Sin just means bad things done with a culpable intention; missing the good. If the Christian idea of sin is true, there should be nothing arbitrary about what is a sin. And if you wonder why the Mosaic law is full of arbitrary-looking laws, there are multiple theories on why, and I could write you long explanation. The short answer is that Christians understand there are reasons for those rules, and believe that they are not binding on Christians. Liberal Christians might even think that some of the apparent commands of God in the Tanakh are just the Israelites getting things wrong, but that would take us into the topic of Biblical interpretation. So, if sin is harmful and homosexual practice is a sin, what's the harm? Some liberal Christians are actually fine with homosexual couples, either as good in itself or as an acceptable imperfection -- I guess they wouldn't see it as a sin. Traditionalists (who I think are orthodox) think that it's against God's will, and that willful disobedience is a sin. The harm might consist of being ultimately less happy than you would be if you'd been a Christian in a Christian marriage, (normally) forgoing your chance to have and raise children in the normal way, and influencing by example same-sex attracted persons so that they might practice homosexuality too. If you look for Richard Swinburne's lecture on Christian sexual morality on KZbin, you'll find this sort of opinion. Now, is it objectively true that homosexual couples are less satisfied than heterosexual couples? Dunno. I think it might be impossible to measure. A representative sample of homosexuals would have to earnestly try both types of marriage and see which one was more satisfying; that is practically impossible. We can compare self-reported happiness from homosexual and non homosexual couples and control for things like poverty and abuse and see who says they're happy, but that's not exactly what we want to know. We want to know, all things being equal, whether heterosexual marriage is more satisfying that homosexual. Seems hard to test. My main contention, then, is that the Christian concept of sin is based on objective harm. If you want to discuss Old Testament stuff, we can.

[@njhoepner]

@@js1817 The concept of sin is an invention intended to allow clever people to control less clever people. Christians of course love to brush aside all the OT commands that they no longer like (because the culture has changed around them and the religion had to adapt to survive), while insisting on others for no other reason than that they find them useful (mainly as weapons against those they hate). Why would working on the "sabbath" be a sin? Purely arbitrary. Why is eating certain foods a sin and others not? Same. It's not just OT. Why would divorce be a sin in itself? There are plenty of good reasons for it, but the bible acknowledges none. And then we get the unforgiveable, "blaspheming the holy spirit." Christians can't even agree on what that means - but why is disagreeing about the source of a "miracle" a big deal? Or why must women cover their heads in church? More purely arbitrary cultural hangups, nothing more. One could go on and on. The church adjusts its views of "sin" however it needs to in order for the institution to survive. Anything with genuine moral value should not work like that. So instead I start from a base of what does harm and what does not. It makes much more sense than "sin," which is merely whatever some magical being declared bothered him for whatever reason. I can't see a way in which homosexual marriage harms anyone, and as you noted there is no real way to compare marital happiness - which to me doesn't matter anyway. Lots of heterosexual marriages end unhappily, that has no bearing on whether or not my marriage is morally right or wrong. Even if 99.99999% of heterosexual marriages ended in divorce (rather than 50%) that would not determine the morality of my marriage.

[@m.f.5739]

That's not morality, that is utilitarianism. And this definition is subjective and arbitrary. What I think of as "good" and therefore do to others, you might think of as evil and vice versa.

[@leviwilliams9601]

Yikes.... Doesn't surprise me after him saying "Jesus is King" is hate full ....

[@GodsGrace758]

You're the man, Matt Fradd. The way you handled this is rarely seen, at least on video. 👊

[@kiddeco6256]

im a gay guy who randomly stumbled on this and it is terrifying. there truly is no hate like christian "love"

[@fabiochristiaan1128]

Yeah, I am christian but I am ashamed by the comments. Tbh, I think being gay is not a choice, but I just don't understand why god would not be okay with it, yet makes it something that you can't change. I mean, I am straight and I simply am not attract to people of the same sex then I. I can imagine gay people being in same in this regard, but not being able to feel attraction to people of the opposite sex.

[@brentbrandon1062]

This man has a huge bias because his son came out as homosexual and it's pretty obvious. Is salvation worth the compromise? I would say no.

[@MartinZoetrope]

We need more of these open, respectful conversations about incredibly personal, nuanced, and difficult subjects. Thank you to you both for a good example of disagreeing well!

[@josephalbatross5961]

Matt, you did a good job explaining your view. A true exchange.

[@nickwaves6420]

I agree with Matt--the Bible and Church are clear on this topic--and also thought that this was a very good conversation on a sensitive topic

[@Martin-hd2tr]

Immediately there is a problem in the first seconds of the video: the church doesn't get it, but I get it. Paul doesn't get it (?) but I get it. Who is the authority on these matters? From a protestant perspective it sort of makes sense to make up your own mind about the Bible, but traditional (Orthodox and Catholic) Christianity has never worked that way

[@alleydi8120]

I think his son’s same sex attraction and the fact that he worked in Hollywood has shaped Andrew’s way of approaching the subject.

[@seekerhonest]

In their approach to a possible god/gods, ALL humans developed man-made religions with man-made mythologies and man-made morals. Christianity and Islam are also man-made religion spread by humans not by god. There are two dangers and harms in that game: 1 When one man-made religion claims to be the only right one and all others are false. 2 When religions claim their man-made morals are given or inspired by a god and by that unquestionable. We never got any morals from god, we have to figure that out on our own. As a Deist I send you a lot human love.

[@alleydi8120]

@ Not quite sure what the purpose of your reply is. It has nothing to do with my post. But anyway, your premise is that you know the truth about God and made unsubstantiated claims. Your relativistic approach isn’t any less “dangerous”.

[@Pro-j4q]

​@@alleydi8120 My friend in Deism NOTHING is dangerous ;) As much as theists , desist do not know anything about the real god/gods, but in contrary to theists, deists do not claim to know anything about a god/gods. Especially they dont claim that their man-made morals are given by a god, which actually is the dangerous part of theism. I hope that helps :)

[@alleydi8120]

@@Pro-j4q the word dangerous keeps coming up. What is dangerous about Judeo-Christian morals? And where do deists get their morals from? And why is that not dangerous?

[@Pro-j4q]

@@alleydi8120 "the word dangerous keeps coming up. "

[@Mindmartyr]

Unpopular but biblically sound opinion: anal sex is never strictly prohibited in a heterosexual marriage. Ever. Find me the verse. That wasn’t the sin of Sodom.

[@m.d.sharpe8892]

Its obviously an emotional stance he's taking, not one he came to logically. His son being gay made this topic personal to him

[@Rayvvvone]

You don't care about compassion. Matt thinks that masturbation is "unnatural" and "wrong". He doesn't say why. He can't say why.

[@jamesemerson4102]

@@Rayvvvone People have to live with far worse things in this life than not being able to have sex with who they're attracted to. Many people live with conditions in which they cannot have sex at all. Some people have mental conditions which make it impossible for them to have any love or feel anything for anyone. It's a broken world. We are all born with desires that we don't want and shouldn't act on. Nothing wrong with "loving" the same sex. I love my brother. The sin is not to "love" the sin is to "lie with another man as one would a woman" - it is the sexual act itself that is the sin. People arguing that homosexuality is right and good in the eyes of the Bible have distorted this to say it's all about love and therefore it should be right. Love doesn't always involve sex.

[@energizedDisciple]

Pray for Klavan.

[@robluck21]

Lets not obsess over other peoples sexual tastes. Within reason of course. These are consenting adults. People drink and drive causing a mountain of dead bodies. Why dont we focus on that.

[@coolbreeze6532]

You're suggesting disregard biblical truth because of other issues? Both are sinful, both can be given attention.

[@robluck21]

@spookyghost-h5o That is true, but focusing on things that practically unchangeable. As it's an intrinsic part of people compared to something that is much easier to change with huge benefits seems to be the most logical course

[@MiniLinlin]

It becomes a bit annoying when people want to shove it into other's people's faces though. Like the faces of children. Not everyone cares about what is done reasonably privately as some things are mainly between God and the person.

[@robluck21]

@MiniLinlin I definitely agree with you. Also what people do in the bedroom should not define them or separate them from their fellow man.

[@coolbreeze6532]

@@robluck21 You're disregarding a few things here. You said it's an intrinsic part of people. No, it isn't, it's a choice. You suggest that since it's consenting adults, we should stay out of it. It is the public that decides the ages of consent. Minors practice the sin. The public has policy on other activities that occur in the bedroom between consenting adults (prostitution). Even with those things, Christians aren't breaking into bedrooms to intervene. But arrogance has led to this sin to be brought to the public sphere. Public parades? Displaying the flag? The group is not being defensive but OFFENSIVE. This is why they receive pushback.

[@dantory08]

Great response, Matt - could not say it more clearly 🙏🏻

[@RyoPwn]

"It's not us versus them, its us. All of us deal with perversions in our sexuality." This was so beautifully put, and the message people with same sex attraction need to hear. As someone who converses with LGBT identifying people very often, the idea of being hated as a group is very real to them, and a major weak point in most Christian evangelization and love. When in reality we are all sinful and have our own cross to bear, that only through Christ's love can we overcome it. God bless and thank you for clipping this. ✝

[@Rayvvvone]

Your comment makes the problem worse, not better. Im not sinful. I reject sin. It's an immoral concept that keeps humanity down. Matt thinks that masturbation is "unnatural" and "wrong". He doesn't say why. He can't say why.

[@RyoPwn]

@@Rayvvvone I'm sorry this is a strange idea to you, but we are in fact all sinful. It's good you reject sin, we should all do our best to do so. But it doesn't change our fallen nature, and our need of Christ.

[@MiniLinlin]

What is hate to some of them, though? I think people can become happy while being single, but some people want others to vocally celebrate everything that they do in order to "love them", which I don't agree with. Some people seem to feel like even if someone is trying to say kind words, that they're still being hated on. I don't agree with certain hate preachers but I also don't think the Gospel is meant to be "non-offensive" either.

[@obviousgreyman]

Klavan is gonna have to stop putting his own will over Christs if he wishes to be saved, he has a very dangerous point of view that could bring him damnation if not corrected.

[@peterwhisenant1961]

@AndrewKlavan isn't one twin being gay and the other not actually evidence that it is upbringing, not genetics, since they are genetically identical? If it's genetics, why would one twin be gay and the other not?

[@JonWRowe]

It's called epigenetics. There is a similar dynamic with handedness where one identical twin is a righty the other a lefty. Also, there's never been any explanation as to why one identical twin through "upbringing" turns out gay, the other straight. As far as we know, to the extent this occurs, it's spontaneous.

[@gruweldaad]

This is why you really ought not to take all of your morality from a religious text. You become as cruel as the people in this comment section. All you’ve proven is that you’re incapable of rationally making any moral arguments and have to use the Bible as a replacement for the difficult task of thinking for yourself.