Divine Hiddenness: Mike Winger's Desperate Dance Around God's Disappearance

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I really did not want to do another Winger Video so soon, but then I saw his response to the Divine Hiddenness Argument. I could not believe his defense and felt compelled to reply. Enjoy!
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Chapters
0:00 Preview
0:40 What Today Is About & Why I Care
1:30 What Is Divine Hiddenness?
2:32 The Chrisitan Blaming
2:52 A Personal Issue
3:13 Clip 1 From Mike Winger
3:46 My Initial Response
4:08 Clip 2
4:36 Agreeing So Far
5:09 Clip 3
5:22 Starting To Question Sincerity
5:39 Divine Hiddenness And Free Will
7:16 Clip 4
7:29 What Is Sincerity?
7:49 Clip 5
8:24 Starting To Get A Bit Unfair
8:57 Clip 6
9:05 No Such Thing As A Sincere Non-Believer?
9:37 Clip 7
9:57 Every Believer Disproves Divine Hiddenness?
11:12 Clip 8
11:37 God Won't Reveal Himself To Sinners?
12:58 Clip 9
13:10 Sincerity In Stages
14:40 Clip 10
15:14 Stop Being Dishonest!
15:35 Clip 11
15:52 Black And White Fallacy
16:54 Clip 12
17:08 Should Personal Experience Not Matter?
17:24 Clip 13
17:32 The Levels Of DIshonesty!
18:27 Be Consistent
19:00 Final Thoughts
#mikewinger #divinehiddenness #atheism #atheist #mindshift #argumentagainstgod #godshiddenness

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Welcome, All. One more winger video. I had to. Hopefully, you'll see why.

[@kenthovindscpa9466]

Mike Rightwinger is living proof that childhood indoctrination makes smart people believe stupid shit Also, please keep streaming about him😇

[@mollizi2131]

A lot of "mights" in his excuses for a god! LLOL

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@kenthovindscpa9466 you're thinking like Kent Hovind! LOL 😆

[@davidjanbaz7728]

Dude : your strawman is sad : why would God not want you to see him as doing so that would destroy you. 2 Timothy 6: 16. Has God not already showed up to people who wrote the Bible as the visible YHWH ( pre- incarnate Jesus) in the Old Testament and Jesus in the New Testament. Your confused if you think God has to jump when you say God needs to jump for me.

[@kenthovindscpa9466]

@david janbaz the ancient Greek word for Yahweh is Mahomes

[@crankyeldergod709]

To me, Winger's response depicts an abusive relationship. No matter what happens, or how the "relationship with god" has gone wrong, it's always the fallible human's fault.. Not only can a perfect god not be blamed for anything, but the very act of blaming him is yet another sin. It's like locking a child in a room, then blaming the lack of affection on the child for not trying hard enough to break out of the room.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

yes! its like that times google! its just insanely abusive.

[@MasterSpade]

Exactly. Belief in gods/religion boils down to = Battered Wife Syndrome.

[@user-oh5gz4ue6r]

"to me" ok

[@sakarivedenpaa4471]

It is absurd to say that God as a perfect being is somehow unjustified in His actions. God is necessarily faultless and man is not.

[@crankyeldergod709]

@@sakarivedenpaa4471 The attribution of god as "necessarily faultless" is probably the truest, and most vile, demonstrations of victim-blaming I have ever seen. This method of emotional abuse is a hallmark tactic of every abusive relationship, ever. It is abuse, it is manipulation, and religions and gods do not get a special pleading exemption on being called out for it. The realization that this form of manipulation and abuse is the heart of many religious doctrines is a big factor in driving people away from religion. At this point, any intellectual discourse has been pre-empted; there is no rational debate or philosophical argument. Anything that can be inferred to contain a criticism of god can be dismissed without consideration, as god is definitionally "faultless". God is an incomprehensible being, yet it is my fault as a mortal that I cannot comprehend him.

[@akosorosz7453]

"Why does god reveal himself to some people, but not others" Exactly

[@TrogdorJr]

Mike Winger is so interesting, he tries so hard to come across and kind and caring in his tone and demeanor while saying some of the more horrific and terrible things. His mental gymnastic abilities are gold medal level.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Indeed. I found myself almost wanting to defend him or take him more serious. Some kind of charisma. But the words dont lie

[@juderenard8273]

Well stated! Ty

[@epcarter6]

He’s gaslighting people in a very patronizing tone

[@TheMilitantMazdakite]

What horrible things do you speak of?

[@TaeyxBlack]

it’s his schtick. i noticed it in his debate with matt dillahunty. he smiles and says things in a generally pleasant way to try to make his opponent seem mean and obstinate by comparison. meanwhile, what he’s saying is, at its core, just more of the same. he finds different, friendlier ways of wording it, but “divine hiddenness isn’t a problem because non-resistant non-believers don’t exist, and if you say you do, then you’re lying to me or to yourself” is the same thing everyone else says, and it’s an ad hoc coping mechanism for the glaring flaws in their ideology.

[@deepashtray5605]

Winger's not trying to explain God's propensity for hide and seek, he's excusing it.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ahh well said.

[@BluStarGalaxy]

I had health issues that lasted for years. I was in pain at night lying in bed and asking god for anything to help. Complete silence. I would have gotten the same amount of help or acknowledgement if I had prayed to a rock. I was convinced to go be anointed with oil by my pastor and when it didn't work I was told that if I had believed that it would have worked it would have fixed me. Blame the victim mentality is strong in the cult. It was completely toxic.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

oh man, that is so disgusting, BUT i am not surprised. I cover this quite a bit in my very first video which is all about prayer. its just awful! Hope your doing better now!

[@chamicels]

Ask god to help me with my schizophrenia. Nothing. The elders in the church said I had sin in my life. so there is that. I finally went to the doctor and the symptoms disappeared.

[@BluStarGalaxy]

@@MindShift-Brandon Still working on it. I am doing research based on science instead of faith. My deconversion began after I prayed over and over every day for like 5 years for God's guidance. When all I got was silence I questioned if there even was a god because the Bible says things about god hearing prayers and helping those that trust in him and ask for help. This willingness to question resulted in everything coming undone. When I looked at the apologetics of theologians and pastors their rationalizations turned me away more than bringing me back. Thanks for the video and response!

[@BluStarGalaxy]

@@chamicels Glad you got help from your doctor. I was told to go to my pastor and be anointed with oil to heal my health issues. When I resisted, because it is faith healing crap, I was told that I didn't want to get better and that I was prideful. I gave in and was anointed with oil. Didn't work. I was then blamed saying that if I would have believed that it had worked, I would have been healed.

[@chamicels]

@@BluStarGalaxy I am sorry you had to go through that.

[@Mr.PeabodyTheSkeptic]

I don't search for a god. I search for truth. So far, there is no evidence for the truth of any gods.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

perfectly said.

[@kevinx7015]

So what evidence is there that shows it’s true that there is no God who withholds evidence of their divinity on purpose in order for us to be able to rely on faith?

[@FakingANerve]

​@@kevinx7015 If it wants to stay hidden, why should we bother to look?

[@kevinx7015]

@@FakingANerve Why should you bother to look if God is hidden? If you are not interested in finding out if there is such a thing as eternal happiness by experiencing it by brining God into your life and comparing that to what your life was like before having God in your life, then there is no reason to seek that hidden God. Do you have no interest in finding out if there is such a thing as eternal happiness?

[@FakingANerve]

@@kevinx7015 If there is eternal happiness bestowed upon us by an all-loving god, to put it bluntly, he wouldn't be such a dick to hide himself. As is such, I go on living my life without threat of eternal torture but instead trying to improve the lives of others, not because I have an eternal carrot dangled in front of me, but because it is the proper thing to do in society.

[@robertmoore2049]

It makes me want to say, “Stop hiding behind your creation and reveal yourself if you want more people to believe in you.”

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Yup! shouldnt be this hard!

[@robertmoore2049]

@@MindShift-Brandon I’m glad I found your channel!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks Robert, Glad to have you here!

[@Cuffsmaster]

I agree - well said

[@laurenpatricia411]

So, you're blind? Look around, stop being so arrogant. God exists

[@Wertbag99]

Divine hiddenness was the nail in the coffin for me (started with being told about a literal global flood, went through being unable to reconcile the hippy NT god with the brutal OT god, finding out about the lack of unity in Christianity to the point of centuries of bloody warfare and then when I prayed for any kind of sign, I got nothing and realized I was talking to myself). Reading the OT about how God wasn't shy to appear constantly, as a burning bush, flaming pillar, old man, voice from the sky or sending angelic messengers. He granted his favorites magical powers, including giving Elijah the ability to do miracles on demand for the purpose of proving God exists... and yet we see nothing of the sort outside of those stories. This rubbish about us somehow blocking God, just makes me wonder if they actually think He is all-powerful. If He was then there is nothing, I could do to stop Him from getting what He wants. Paul wasn't seeking and yet was convinced, so apparently that isn't even a requirement. If He wants everyone to know Him, and wants a personal relationship with everyone, then He would have it. He doesn't, so either He can't or won't, either way conflicts with what is being claimed.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

100% great add on. There is just so much against him. I have no idea how someone like Mike who has been exposed to all of this can still hold on at all.

[@Willie_Wahzoo]

@@MindShift-Brandon "I don't see how Mike who has been exposed to all of this can still hold on at all." That's just it. It's like virtue-signaling, "I'll never give up the faith!" The idea of holding on is arousing to Christians. It makes them feel heroic and brave, just like when that chick at the abortion rally acts like not killing babies is somehow killing lots of women when we all know it's not.

[@winifredsmith4421]

​@@MindShift-BrandonYou

[@MindShift-Brandon]

?

[@sniperwolf50]

Adding to your examples: Moses was indifferent to or ignorant of god until the moment he showed himself in a burning bush. Jonas was actively trying to hide from god's presence and still he had god's will forced upon him. At the time Jesus/god appeared to Paul, he was persecuting Jesus' followers, which is not the type of seeking that Mike is talking about

[@seraphonica]

this argument of Mike's has big "how dare you bring a knife to a knife fight?" energy. imagine trying to tell Mike that he's not allowed to talk about HIS personal beliefs and experiences

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Exactly

[@Jake-zc3fk]

Great job again Brandon! Don’t let these guys off the hook, they deserve the scrutiny that you and others give these people. The insanity of religion needs to be put in it’s proper place, the dust bin of history!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Always so encouraging, man. Thank you!

[@JayBandersnatch]

Matthew 7:9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! Many sincere atheists are asking for evidence that will convince them of God's existence, they are asking for bread, yet the Christians who say that god wants you to have faith instead of evidence are essentially saying that the stones god is giving you is sufficient instead of the bread you were asking for, directly contradicting the bible.

[@billguthrie2218]

I rejected Christianity as false over 30 years ago after believing my entire life and even studying for the ministry.. Even though I left Christianity 31 years ago, I'm sincerely open to a god being real if he would simply reveal himself to me in a way that is convincing. Surely he would know how to do that. And he would know I'm sincere. . I seek truth. If god is true, I'm open. 64 years and all I have seen is people sincerely believing on bad evidence, emotion, and hearsay. , myself included until I was33. Never anything real, substantial, or substantive. Just emotions.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

I love and share this attitude and approach.

[@Disappointed739]

People "creating imaginary problems with imaginary solutions", according to Dan Barker.

[@billguthrie2218]

@@Disappointed739 Didn't he also say something like ...."would you be grateful to the man who gave you a bandaide to cover the wound he made by cutting you with a knife?"

[@TH3F4LC0Nx]

I'm reminded of that movie The Grey, when Ottway looks up at the sky and says, "Show me something real. F*ck faith; I need it now!" I think a lot of us can relate to that.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

that movie is an underrated gem! And yes, exactly.

[@anzacman5]

We just have to look around, with eyes open.

[@mistyhaney5565]

Responding to Winger is appreciated as long as you can stomach it. I've watched with dismay the growth of his channel. His presentation sounds calm and measured, while becoming increasingly toxic in its portrayal of anyone questioning any aspect of his concept of Christianity. He also has no problem claiming knowledge regarding forms of Christianity that aren't his.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

You are right about that. It may simply not be worth the blood boiling that goes on from watching. Thank you for watching!

[@Cuffsmaster]

"toxic.... of anyone questing any aspect of his concept of Christianity" Seems to be a common theme of the faith. If it was not then there would only be one type of Church in the world. Many believe that You not only have to be a christian but you have to be in the right Christian sub Cult to get to heaven.

[@Amatt0]

Stomaching him is indeed challenging, I could only manage 10 minutes before his nonsense made me nauseous

[@raysalmon6566]

​​@@CuffsmasterJesus did not teach such a thing

[@Cuffsmaster]

@@raysalmon6566 "Jesus did not teach such a thing" Well none of the supernatural events connected to Jesus can be proven. Be it a virgin birth. jumping out of the grave. raising the dead. the earth standing still, walking on water or turning water into wine, having lunch with the devil or speaking multi-languages at once. They are fairtalies. I am sure there was some guy named Jesus or something that the bible myths were made about but that does not prove the religious aspects are real. I. like Thomas Jefferson, believe red letter words of the bible are better than most. But I don't really believe he was the son of some god or is now part of some imaginary triad of gods but not really more than one. SO it matters little to me what he taught or what you claim he taught as he was not a god anyway. But you can be the very first Christian to actually offer real proof if you can find it for real. Well Jesus didn't teach anything about what I talking about in the prior post because he was not a god and didn't see the future therefore didn't know there would be a problem,. He also didn't talk to people about common medical practices and medicines or science, or any damn thing that would show he had some real vast knowledge or anything important or real.

[@loriw2661]

Don’t forget……god only gets credit for the GOOD stuff. Everything else is OUR fault. When the imaginary man in your head has THAT kind of advantage, it’s a win-win. I’m stealing some of your points btw. Another excellent video!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Please do! And thank you!

[@lezbyanke777]

their god sounds like a narcissist father

[@pickenchews]

I'm 42. I've spent my entire life deeply deeply deeply yearning for God, thinking about God, putting God at the center of my heart and thinking of Him countless times per day (and still intend to cling to my often-feeble faith forever). I've also spent my whole life wrestling with doubt, and everytime another believer questions my sincerity, when I've literally cried my eyes out for God to show me He's real many many many times, that person is basically slamming the door shut to me ever taking their spiritual advice seriously. It's very hard to offend me, but that ignorant dismissal SERIOUSLY offends me. I often doubt they can even fathom the level of sincerity it takes to walk in my shoes on this. For people like that, it apparently comes too easy.

[@jesusislord9116]

First off I love the number 42 I actually have a barcode tatto with the UPC 42424242 ha I've seen the number too much and it holds significance in my life. But I also agree with you 100% there are simply somethings that make no sense and this is one where it seems illogical from a theistic view point. I question this constantly as I believe people have sincerely seeked out God and some say they are disappointed every time I've heard every sort of argument for divine hiddeness, Inspiring Philosophy and Mike winger . Propose different views on it I'm sorry this happened to you and it definitely may be frustrating. Most Christians would presume that either You aren't being sincere which it seems to me is out of the question though I don't know your heart and it's motives Or that simply God knows what you will do what that knowledge and you might reject him anyways due to his morally just ways. Again no evidence for any of this, these are theological view points But it definitely touches my heart that this happened to you.

[@jesusislord9116]

Again my views on the God of the Hebrew Bible . Stands firm in his word I still struggle with experiences and wanting to feel God out or see him move . Have you ever thought maybe your cries out are ways that God is softening your heart to than have a firmer faith? Not sure where you stand in your belief 😢

[@anzacman5]

Well, the question I've got is "do you need to believe?" And "why do you think you need to believe?" From my experience in church going, believing was "saying the script", saying the "right words." I'd call that social pressure actually. That on top of religious pressure to avoid hell. Ah, the power of pressure on those that are needy. ​@@jesusislord9116

[@johnhammond6423]

This is what religion does to somebody. They simply can't step outside of their religious box.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

yup! i was there once, thus my hope for others to see the light someday. Any small part I can contribute to that is well worth my time.

[@istvansipos9940]

mike does this for a living. He could step out. He does not want to.

[@CaliforniaSurfer-gc2xv]

They MAKE MONEY. LYING PSYCHOS

[@omnikevlar2338]

This was great! My issue is if the believers are gonna accuse non believers that they must be doing some level of resistance to maintain nonbelief. Couldn't the nonbeliever flip the script on the believers that they must be doing some level of resistance to maintain faith? This is the problem when we try to psychoanalyze each other beyond what people are presenting rather than take each other at their word.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

100%! Has to go both ways, or just drop it!

[@steveg1961]

Except in the latter case, religious believers really are emotionally opposed to scrutinizing their religious beliefs in a critical manner, both in regard to the fallacious nature of religious rhetoric as well as in regard to the lack of any good empirical evidence. A glaring example of this is the tens of millions of fundamentalist Christians who believe in young earth creationism.

[@martifingers]

"his is the problem when we try to psychoanalyze each other beyond what people are presenting ..." I have to agree OmniKevlar and yet... it is hard to deny that religious faith (broadly understood) is basic to how we view our selves and others and crucially how we deal with mortality. I have become very persuaded by some of the arguments of Terror Management Theory - and that is dependent on certain psychoanalytic assumptions particularly the unconscious and repression. It's a complicated set of ideas in fact but quite fascinating but even if entirely accurate there is still the problem , as you point out, of how we enter dialogue with those who disagree. It might be impossible but there have been some intriguing developments recently such as William Lane Craig's admission about his" low epistemological bar", some of Pinecreek's exchanges with theists and so on. Emotionally mature discussions would probably be much more productive than abstract philosophical debates or the tendentious ramblings of Mr Winger.

[@joegame4576]

"Couldn't the nonbeliever flip the script on the believers that they must be doing some level of resistance to maintain faith? " you actually could. this is not a problem for christians.

[@steveg1961]

​@@joegame4576 You wrote, "This is not a problem for Christians." In fact, it's a fundamental problem for every Christian who tries to pretend that the Bible somehow constitutes some kind of "infallible" and "inerrant" "revelation" from an omniscient god - because the Bible itself displays quite obviously the fact that it isn't anything of the sort.

[@peertopeertherapy3720]

My wife and I had two children and we never abandoned or hid ourselves from them because we love them. Why then does a all powerful god that supposedly created us that Christians claim is a loving heavenly father abandoned and hide from us? Makes no sense to me.

[@Sarappreciates]

Everything about the videos on this channel tells me that you were a Christian through and through, even down to the music you chose and how it's used. There's no doubt in my mind that you spent a great deal of your lifetime 100% "in the faith." This deconstruction looks to me like an honest search for truth and basic understanding that can't be found in the supernatural. Deconstruction can be a painful process. It's almost never done by choice if you stop to really listen.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ha! don't hate me for the music, just love me some intro and outro music. I hope it doesnt stink of emotional priming worship music. but thank you for what you said. i always love how Dan Barker put it. If I wasn't a "real" christian, no one was.

[@Sarappreciates]

@@MindShift-Brandon As a child, I was raised Catholic. I also had undiagnosed ADHD, so prayers to Saint Anthony was, like, a daily thing for me. He's the patron saint of lost people and objects, so you pray to St Anthony if you can't find your keys, right? I believed that so much with the faith of a child, you know? Just totally absolute, no questions asked. 100% BELIEF! When my mother converted to Evangelism, my heart broke when she said St. Anthony was really a servant of Satan, and we'd been praying to "pagan demons" all along... If we could be wrong about that, we could be wrong about anything!! That sent me spiraling. If anything like that happened to you, just punctured your faith like a balloon, I have a very deep compassion for that moment in people's lives. It's scary, uncertain, and completely rational if it's all you knew.

[@oliversch2183]

Out of the countless 'atheist' channels I'm subscribed to it's your channel that I would like to see growing faster the most 🤗

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Oh man. I really appreciate that. Thank you, Oliver! Working on it, ha.

[@Lauren_12695]

Yep! This channel and Alex O Conner’s are my favorites

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Hes my favorite, what a compliment

[@KeanuReevesIsMyJesus]

It’s so great to see your sub count go up, every time we click on your videos. Well deserved and looking forward to your growth.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Really kind! I'm hoping to get to 10k by the end of the year. That would just blow me away. But I really want to be in a position to start interviewing apologists, authors, atheists, activists etc. Thank you for the support!

[@emmanuella2960]

@@MindShift-Brandon @MindShiftSkeptic 10k? It's so nice to see this 'cause we're at 19k two months before the end of the year. Much love and growth, Brandon.

[@ServantofBaal]

As someone who was once a believer, I find his premise to be incredibly insulting. I looked long and hard for a shred of evidence for divinity. I was in their education system for a few years so I knew what to look for, and in those places I found that scientific observation didn't support the notions. I was very faithful. How dare somebody like him question so many who were so devoted and chalk it up to "You just weren't trying hard enough".

[@MindShift-Brandon]

exactly. Its inexcusable, but he just laughs like its our problem for brining it up. The insanity!

[@FakingANerve]

It makes me wonder if he is maybe being a bit willfully insulting because at some level he knows he has no other rebuttal and that worries him.

[@kurtfrederiksen5538]

Honestly, Winger is worse than this. I made the mistake of watching a few of his more recent videos (made in the last year) and in several he is guilty of immediately poisoning the well by calling anyone who disagrees with him immoral, irrational, etc. Then as you said, the complete mischaracterization and assumptions he makes on top of that. Then I found his debate with Matt Dillahunty he did like 5 years ago on a Christian apologetics channel. To the channels credit they left comments on, even though the majority of them were pointing out how weak Winger's position was, and saying things like he helped them move from the Christian faith. Despite all this, he still is making the same arguments and claims, even after it was demonstrated how terrible they are. In retrospect, I think his videos are not made for non-believers, or agnostics. His videos are made for those who already believe and who want to feel secure in their beliefs without needing to really examine their own views or put any effort introspection.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Spot on. It was people like him and videos just like his that kept me hanging in the religion as long as I did.

[@paulfinkelstein1448]

As a non-believer with no history in his faith, I find it extremely offensive that I have to presuppose his belief, rejecting my own, and actively seek to confirm it, in order to claim I am sincerely seeking the truth. I, also, find it offensive that I must seek his specific truth, instead of truth more generally.

[@robquinn3584]

You are very logical and coherent. I wish I found you in 1962. Now at 71 years of age, I don't know what to do with your illumination of reality.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thats very kind. Never too old for truth and logic!

[@anzacman5]

Same age, same experience. For me, it's a new start , free from the pressure to be "Christian ". Just enjoy being the person you never could be. Stop being the person you thought you had to be. Freedom from guilt. Freedom from "sin". Freedom from pretending. It's great. How's it going with you, my friend?

[@bobmudge4836]

If god has the desire and the superior resources to ensure each and every one of us gets saved, it’s on him to accomplish it.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

very well said!

[@Klepske]

Something that hit me recently... Why would it even be necessary to seek god? If he's so loving and wants a relationship, you'd think he'd make himself known from the moment I was able to comprehend?

[@MindShift-Brandon]

It really should be that simple!

[@anzacman5]

Judt look around, with eyes open . No seeking required, no script to follow

[@anzacman5]

"Just"

[@mikeharrison1868]

There's nothing I would love more than to have a relationship with a truly loving and sensible god.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

same, it is more than a shame its just not real.

[@AUniqueHandleName444]

Absolutely. How amazing that would be.

[@Cuffsmaster]

"sensible god" He got off to a bad start in the old testament. There might be a better one out there to consider.

[@mikeharrison1868]

@@Cuffsmaster Exactly. I can't reconcile any kind of Tri-omni god with the problem of evil. Even trying to envisage a religion built fresh from the ground up, without all the bullsh*t built into past religions, it just doesn't seem possible.

[@dannioutscore4387]

I've been playing hide and seek with God for over two decades. It's fair to say he is still winning. 😄 Though I sought him, I couldn't find him, and had to give up the search for my own sake! I wasn't living my life at all!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Been there!

[@justinhart2831]

I love how Mike personally attacks atheists as his "defense" against the divide hiddenness argument, and then tries to insulate himself from being called out for it by making fun of the people he's attacking for presumably objecting to his attack.

[@beecontent]

Thank you very much for making this rebuttal video. I agree with your defence. My commitment is to the whole truth about all of reality. My commitment is not to religious books which claim to tell the truth while being full of lies.

[@CharlesPayet]

On this one, I fundamentally and viscerally agree with you 100%, Brandon. Winger’s argument is so insulting as to be infuriating. Like you, I was a Christian for 30 years, and I take those arguments quite personally.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Glad to find such common ground. My blood was boiling for sure!

[@germanslice]

@@MindShift-Brandon There are certain things he teaches for doctrine which are not correct before God. When Winger claimed that Melchizedek of Genesis that Abraham had paid his tithing to was Jesus. I thought, no that's is not right. For Jehovah existed in spirit form before he was even born in the flesh as Jesus Christ in Jerusalem through the virgin Mary.. And the prophets testify that Jehovah would not take upon himself flesh except he be born of a virgin.

[@88mphDrBrown]

Tbf it's more a function of how rock solid the argument is. It's so sound that his only options are to attack our sincerity or our ability to even be aware of what we know. It's hard to think of a more patheticly dishonest response to an interlocutor than "You don't actually know what you really know or believe. You don't have conscious access to your own subconscious knowledge, but I (a complete stranger) get to make claims about your subconscious knowledge." It's practically the textbook definition of gaslighting, just without the incremental aspect.

[@germanslice]

@@88mphDrBrown Winger contradicts the prophecies. So I didn't accept what he taught. None of the prophets taught that Jehovah would appear in Genesis as melchizedek. That conclusion is made up by winger through misinterpreting the scriptures.. The prophets only taught that Jehovah would appear as Jesus in Jerusalem born of a virgin and that the star would be the sign that Christ has come into the world for the first time.

[@CharlesPayet]

@@germanslice the point is, none of that is real or happened in the first place. Secondly, your point has absolutely nothing to do with the any of the points made in the video.

[@donnyh3497]

Mike's parents made him so intensely terrified of hell that he has literally no chance of ever seeing the truth. He will make excuses for his imaginary friend until the day he dies 😅

[@MindShift-Brandon]

3 years ago, I was not far off from where Mike is. Maybe hope yet!

[@MrCanis4]

@@MindShift-Brandon In my country Belgium 60 years ago 90% were christians, now the churches are falling into ruins. Now less than 10% practicing christians.

[@Cuffsmaster]

@@MrCanis4 I wish it was true here as well

[@marcbernard1744]

This video was on Prophet of Zod’s feed and it led me to start following you. I love your arguments! Very well thought out

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Oh man, thats awesome. Thanks so much for coming over!

[@FakingANerve]

First time seeing you in my feed. Mere minutes in and I'm already subbed. You're doing good work! Cheers.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

oh wow, thank you so much. That is very encouraging, and welcome!

[@mollizi2131]

That's the problem! I have sincerely looked for god thru several religions and never found him. Why do we have to search for god? If god is real why does he have to be searched for? It's like looking for an answer to an unknown/hidden question, a god is not necessary for a meaningful loving life!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Yup! The whole question in general is a bit too obvious for this kind of an answer

[@EMDS04]

This is my first time watching your channel and i must say im very impressed. I really admire the way you think and also explain arguments so that its easy to follow. Thank you very much keep up the good work

[@MindShift-Brandon]

thanks, Leonard! thats very encouraging to hear. Welcome to the family!

[@conamin78]

Glad I stumbled on your channel ! I am a Christian, and many times I have struggled with my relationship with God. Consistentcy in how Christians deal with each other, and those that do not believe in God has always been a frustration for me. I appreciate how you approach each of your react vids that I have seen so far. Keep up the good work you are doing.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Appreciate the kind words and support despite our difference. Cheers!

[@F-hj9mz]

so good, man! You had wonderful points to each of his objections.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you much!

[@mrarby]

Great channel! Awesome content! Your De-conversion story helped me a lot. Keep it up, as I know you will!! Thanks a million!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thats lovely to hear. Thanks so much for being here!

[@iluvtacos1231]

Hello! Just found this video, haven't watched much yet, but wanted to say that I love the captions you put on your video!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

I keep hearing mixed messages. People either love it or hate it! Thanks for letting me know!

[@iluvtacos1231]

I'm always on the side of more accessibility, so I say keep them!

[@BileDuctBalderdash]

Great rebuttal video, and I appreciate all your honesty thank you.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks!

[@yvonnepeltier9815]

It just reminds me of Linus, searching for a "sincere" pumpkin patch. " Nothing but sincerity as far as the eye can see..." And just wait until next year, he'll find a pumpkin patch that is real sincere. Because of course the Great Pumpkin never showed up. How could a pumpkin patch not be sincere anyway? Would there be a few butternut squash vines mixed in among the pumpkins? Sheesh

[@carlystur]

Cool video! Even over a decade later after I considered myself to be an atheist, I've loved finding and watching videos like this! ❤ I'm subscribing!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Welcome to the fam! Appreciate that!

[@TheDeath138]

Just came here from Prophet of Zod and I wasn't disappointed. Great video.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Oh man. Thats great to hear. Thank you!

[@user-vj9oz7fx2e]

My deconversion took way more than three years. I feel so fortunate to have gotten free from my obsession with god at all. Being brought up to be a believer sucks!

[@rizdekd3912]

You and me both. It took me more than 10 years for go from a convinced Christian to someone who had to admit I no longer thought God existed and probably not any kind of 'super being.' It was a long slow deliberate investigative process such that now there are NO lines of reasoning anyone brings to the table that I have not thought through and found a naturalistic answer for.

[@martifingers]

First time viewer here and I have subscribed! This is a very serious problem for believers so I am not surprised that the typical response is to impute insincerity. While it is true that other more philosophical or theological arguments are possible I think what is going on here is an emotional response to having their defense against existential anxiety being subjected to questioning. I appreciate that this be characterised as me ascribing a psychological motivation just as the apologists are doing - there is some truth in that I guess but that's a whole other story. However as Mindshift points out, no-one can know another's thoughts as well as the person themselves so ascribing non-belief to insincerity, the desire to sin etc etc is definitely a form of mental violence - it denies the non-believer's validity as a person. If this was done within a family by a parent, it would be potentially damaging to a child's mental health. As adults we can (more or less) react with justifiable exasperation and outrage and be grateful that apologists have no real power.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Well im subscribing to this comment because i couldnt agree more and this is so thoughtfully said. Thanks for the contribution and for joining the family here!

[@dmitchcat]

thanks-you do important work

[@MindShift-Brandon]

My pleasure. Thank you for being here!

[@crazygrace94]

This channel fucking blows my mind. You are succinctly articulating the imaginary conversations I have in my head all day for why I’m exvangelical, agnostic, leaning atheist. It’s cool to see these arguments and thoughts spoken aloud.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

So glad to bring it to life for you and that we are on the same wave length. Thanks so much for being a part of this.

[@88mphDrBrown]

The primary aspect of divine hiddenness for me is the juxtaposition between Christian claims of God's omnibenevolence, God's degree of caring about my beliefs surrounding him, and the horrid degree of my punishment for honestly not knowing if he exists.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

This is extremely well said and so simply put. Thank you!

[@ladyeowyn42]

Yes, as if God is hiding from the people he hates - including a lot of children. I clearly remember being a devout young child wondering why I couldn’t sense or hear god/angels.

[@a.g.m8790]

Hell yea over 1k already! You deserve it bro 👊🏾

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you! Last couple videos have really done well. We will see if we can keep it up. 10k by EOY would be amazing.

[@walterbrooks2329]

This is the first of your vids I've seen. Immediate sub, well done.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks, Walter! Appreciate that big time. Welcome!

[@rationalhuman2149]

I’ve personally heard dozens of testimonies of people who said “I wasn’t seeking god, I wanted nothing to do with god, church, religion…but god chose me to reveal himself”. How does that track with the “sincerity “ requirement?

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Exactly. its just so weak

[@Lauren_12695]

You are putting into words, a lot of things I’ve thought growing up as an evangelical Christian. (I’m an atheist now but still) You’re awesome!

[@PatrickWDunne]

I once had a friend make the argument "Just because you haven't seen God doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Have you ever seen a billion dollars?" She disregarded that we can all see physical money, so it's not far-fetched to think a billion $1 bills exist. The other difference is that money (and every other great mystery) isn't backed by an all-powerful intelligent being. It's hard for me to "prove" the existence of one billion dollars unless I am a billionaire but that doesn't mean there's not evidence for it. I can ask an intelligent and divine being to show himself to prove his existence. I can't do the same to a billion dollars. (Though, if a billion dollars wanted to show up to my front doorstep, I would happily accept.)

[@AbsolutePixelMaster]

Count me among those who would like to see a conversation between you and Mike Winger. :) Regarding the sincerity argument, and admittedly it is one I used myself as a believer, it is really convenient because it is something that is impossible to either prove or disprove. Only an individual can know their own sincerity, no one can know the sincerity of another. But, as you say, if we are to consider the testimony of those who claim to have been witness to the God through their sincerity, then we must also give equal weight to those who claim to be sincere but have not seen God, because we cannot truly know what is in either of their hearts. And with that, let me too be an example of someone who was sincere. I was raised in the church, I debated atheists all the time hoping to lead them to God. My desire was always to find God. I absolutely believed God was real, and why wouldn't I? I was constantly told it as a child. It was drilled into my head. I genuinely feared any reality where this was not the case and this led me to employ a selective bias in the information I would allow myself to absorb. All of this information was biased in such a way as to reenforce my belief in God. I could not have been farther from his example of an atheist trying to disprove God. I WAS TRYING TO PROVE HIM! And just like you, my deconversion was slow, it was painful, I did not want it. And even to this day, I have no desire to lead people away from Christianity... such an act still feels wrong to me. Though that is finally starting to change as I begin to see more and more clearly the damage done by the indoctrination of the church. Can you imagine a society where we can write off a person as being evil simply because they do not believe in the same God? After all, we know that that God only reveals Himself to those who are sincere, right? Imagine how easily we could just ignore and legitimize all their suffering in such a world... Imagine that...

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you so much for sharing. Similar paths it seems. I was the same at first. 0 desire to pull others away and even felt slimy like i wanted to be done telling anyone what to think ever again. But then the harm became so clear and i just didnt want others to go through something completely unnecessary. My main goal now is to help those already out but maybe still struggling or doubting but i have 0 qualms if i take a few christians with me anymore. Thanks again for the comment and support!

[@26beegee]

Believers are always looking for reasons to blame the non-believers because they cannot accept any notion of a flaw/mistake/conflict/error in their perception of a god. For them, having their image of god shattered is their worst nightmare. So of course it must be us because it simply can’t be their god! I wonder why some people need so much to cling to a fantasy while others can find peace, even happiness without it? 🤷🏼‍♀️

[@MindShift-Brandon]

I am becoming more and more convinced that personality type is huge into which ones do what when faced with the truth. Some people just seem bent to not care, not take arguments seriously, bury their head in the sand etc. What is it? I just cannot understand.

[@Jonas-gl9ke]

A major issue for me is that those who allegedly have a personal revelation with god don’t demonstrate a way to know for certain the mechanism by which their transformation occurred. When value and truth are distinguished, any set of beliefs that leads to perceived value can be seen as true by the believer but this is fallacious. Those with “transformative experiences” need a way to falsify their claim or else accept the “truths” of other conversion experiences. If they can’t falsify their experience, their belief is no more valid than those of a Muslim, Jehovah Witness, Hindu, FLDS or Mormon.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Yes! i'll never understand how they can so easily dismiss the personal experience of others that believe differently. well put.

[@Cuffsmaster]

@@MindShift-Brandon I always questioned the whole concept of "Personal relationship" with god.

[@bradypustridactylus488]

Divine hiddenness was irrelevant. I was serious, but I was never sincere. Generalized Anxiety Disorder makes every decision and every position subject to a second guess and a timid assent. "A prison wall was round us both. Two outcast men we were. The world had thrust us from its heart, And God from out His care, And the iron gin that waits for Sin Had caught us in its snare." --Oscar Wilde

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Quoting Mr. Wilde is music to my ears!

[@merarieloise]

These Mike Winger response videos are gold

[@tdhoward]

Excellent response. I watched the original video and found it sorely lacking. You have another subscriber now.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks, Tim! Welcome to the family.

[@tdhoward]

@@MindShift-Brandon Thanks! I just came across your channel, and I really like the patient, calm approach you take. Also, I've watched a lot of Mike Winger videos, and I would like to see more response videos.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Appreciate that! And thanks for the feedback. I’ve been toying with the idea of Mike Winger Mondays. Ha.

[@twbascom]

I'm a Christian, but I appreciate your perspective on this. well done on the video!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you much.

[@SDGlock23]

I was sincere in trying to have a relationship with God. I believed absolutely 100% and was raised Christian, I just never found what I was searching for. I had faith and would have called myself a believer, I really thought he listened to my prayers and cared. Maybe God just doesn't want a relationship with me, but one thing is for certain, God is great at hiding.

[@Imnot-fj1yx]

مع ذلك أنت لا زلت تؤمن بوجود الله 😵

[@dancinswords]

"reaping the blindness of our own decisions" this is what a pretzel sounds like

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ha! Got a real chuckle from me there

[@BrandonTmusic]

I'm in the "getting mixed signals" boat. I appreciate your video cause you really do outline the logical and experiential issues me as an agnostic has. I'm trying hard to find God and believe, some days are more convincing than others. Some days im significantly unconvinced, especially when it comes to divine hiddeness. It's like God is not answering me, not getting back to me. It feels like a 1 way conversation. How can a Christian expect someone to convert if they can never really CONFIRM God is real and listening in the first place?

[@cogforreal5952]

I heard God three times in my most trying moments. You will never forget. I know God is real. As you sincerely draw near to him, he’ll draw near to you.

[@Jwhit91]

First of all, your argument about how it affects free will is brilliant. Also 14:30 is so good!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks John, should have just made a 10 second video saying that lol.

[@scottgodlewski306]

Absolutely. The free will argument seems impossible in the Christian worldview.

[@germanslice]

@@MindShift-Brandon If there was not opposition in all things then there would not be free will. Because you need good and evil in order to make a choice.

[@CharlesPayet]

@@germanslice so how did Lucifer make an evil choice, despite being in the very presence of God in heaven?

[@germanslice]

@@CharlesPayet Lucifer had his agency

[@MG-ot2yr]

Divine Hiddenness was the major thing that caused me to reject the whole idea of Christianity, and all religions for that matter, as a child. I can remember asking my mother at about age 7 or 8 why god didn't just show himself, and got the standard non-answers "you just have to have faith" or "god works in mysterious ways". And yes if you read the Bible, god is quite visible in many stories, lived among the people for 33 years, then poof disappears, MIA now for 2000 years. So yea something that doesn't exist would be invisible!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Issues everywhere! Glad you made it out!

[@marco99999]

Coming over from Prophet of Zod. Interested in hearing more ideas and ways of understanding how apologetics try to "sell" their deity.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Welcome! that was so nice of him, and glad to you have here.

[@josephcollins6033]

"Mental gymnastics"...perfect description. I need to listen to this one again for several reasons. Glad YOU are out there. Truly, the Lord has sent you to us...bahahahahahahahahahaaaa! :))

[@sanjeevgig8918]

Yahweh/Jesus: The winner of longest Hide-and-Seek game ever. 2000 YEARS and counting. . LOL

[@MindShift-Brandon]

I almost titled this video something like that, ha.

[@KeanuReevesIsMyJesus]

That’s not true. He shows up on toast every now and than. Sometimes as a Cheeto too.

[@FinHammer]

Come on Sanjeev, look at the trees!!! 😆

[@nauticdixons]

That's exactly what I said 😂

[@sanjeevgig8918]

@@nauticdixons My last few comments were deleted. It was fun while it lasted.

[@lezbyanke777]

as violent as their god is, one would think that Satan was the merciful one

[@MindShift-Brandon]

sure can look that way.

[@panqueque445]

God testing our fate makes no sense to me. The entire old testament is a collection of stories of the Israelites not listening to god, not obeying him and not doing what he wants. These people were god's special people, they didn't need faith, they were beyond faith because they saw god. They saw him physically show up and do things. There was no question that god existed, and still people kept turning his back on him. So why in the hell does he think that hiding himself would work? If these people who literally saw god couldn't keep it together, what hope do we have? This makes no sense.

[@Imnot-fj1yx]

لماذا الديانة المسيحية تعترف بالعهد القديم ؟

[@pyktukasplays4945]

​@@Imnot-fj1yxChristianity recognises the Old Testament because Christianity implies itself to being continued Judaism. Or corrected Judaism.

[@scottgodlewski306]

Well said.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks, Scott. Welcome!

[@jon4574]

Another bottle of Winger's Weaksauce. An important problem I didn't find mentioned is the alleged case of Doubting Thomas. Thomas supposedly got to witness Jesus performing real magical miracles and still doubted, and was in the story given evidence by chatting with and touching Jesus. If Jesus is really alive it'd be just and consistent to give the same evidence to all of us. As you said, there's the problem with verses that claim Jesus loves the world, came to save it, and wants a relationship with as many people as possible. Ascending into the clouds and being hidden is the exact opposite of what he'd need to do to achieve that goal. The only good answer is that Jesus is still dead, but apologists can't have that.

[@keobakilemahura4890]

Since Mike believe that people are not really sincere, they just sincerely think they're sincere, my question then would be what is the measure for sincerity, what are the key indicators for one's sincerity. He cannot tell except to imply that the measure is his favorable end results. If the results are what he wanted then the person was sincere, if not then they were not. This is incredibly dishonest and stupid. I think not realizing how stupid his arguments are is his real problem here.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Yes its fallacious on a multitude of levels.

[@Bella-vt7ol]

Nailed it again 🥳🫶🏻

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks, Bella!

[@alicedeen720]

Love it - what a description, "Mike Winger's Desperate Dance Around God's Disappearance" That is exactly what the believers have to do just to get past the horrible stuff in that old book of nonsense. I tell you the power of childhood indoctrination, stuffing a young head with nonsense should not be underestimated. It is why we have geographical religions but the believers cannot see that obvious point.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ha, thank you so much! Appreciate you being here, and yes its just disgusting! I always say, if no one heard anything about any god or religion till 25, and then they sat down with all the holy books objectively. I am pretty confident no one would just be like, yup, heres the truth! if it would die without us tricking kids, we should let it die!

[@alicedeen720]

@@MindShift-Brandon Absolutely, so true! I often think if an alien came to earth and said 'I fancy trying one of your religions', what would that look like. I imagine summarizing all the pros and cons of each into something like a baked bean tin can label. These could be set out in a massive supermarket and the alien could go shopping. Picking up each tin can and reading the label. Christianity could be its own section. There would be so many as there are well over 1000 different denominations of that baby alone. So many gods worldwide, all made by men for men. it would be fun to see what was left in the shopping cart at the checkout. However, I think you would need an allergy warning section on some. Warning this denomination of Christianity hates the LGBTQ+ as well as women. Warning this denomination will take the most cash that you earn. Warning this denomination has the worst street credibility ever. Warning this denomination has the worst child molesting rates. Warning this denomination screws up children the most with the living fear of hell. I wonder if the alien would come out and say that is a heap of 'toilet filler' and ray gun 'zap' the entire supermarket into dust. Then it suggests humanity just grows the 'flip' up and leaves. It would not be two seconds before some money-grabbing religious conman/pastor/priest/vicar grabs the headlines with 'aliens in league with Satan and after your souls'!!! lmao Sorry, I am still an angry atheist I guess I wished I had that ray gun so I could visit the church that taught me the fear of hell as a small child! Apparently, I've been diagnosed with religious trauma which up until recently I did not know even existed. I thought my nightmares were Satan's demons coming for me! Face palm! Thanks for your reply and sorry for this long-winded dribble. I'll subscribe and I thank you, your work is very important. Best Alice

[@MindShift-Brandon]

no i loved it. thanks for taking the time. Appreciate the kind words also!

[@markoshun]

My first video of Winger he clearly lost a debate with Dilahunty, as his logic is severely limited by his beliefs, but I was struck by how sincere and likable he seemed and went to watch his analysis of the debate. Matt was actually at his worst in that video, yet the only reason Mike could find that he 'lost' was Matt's charm and wit. A few more videos and I now see him as one of the worst of the 'true atheist' deniers to me. His rejection of my sincerity is complete.. he 'knows'. He's insanely arrogant and disrespectful. Reminds me of the quote that religion allows good people to do evil things.

[@tigdogsbody]

Do leprechauns, unicorns, fairies, the Sasquatch and the Loch Ness monster deserve the divine hiddenness trump card as Jesus gets?

[@istvansipos9940]

and Tinkerbell? asking for a friend.

[@petermartell568]

so how much is Winger making from his grift? He must know that Jesus calls for him to give everything away if he wants to follow Jesus. He does not seem sincere

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Great point. But i can hear all the christian excuses now on how much further his ministry can go etc. ugg

[@davidhanson888]

i have a daughter. i love her so much. when she disobeyed, i show mercy and grace. i commune with her everyday. i am beside her all the time despsite the stubbornness. i am always there for her. now let's talk about the god of abraham, the one known to all as loving and merciful. where is he now? why is he hiding?

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Exactly. As a parent its obvious he’s either not their or horrible.

[@austintea]

When i was religious i would watch his videos on occasion, it wasnt until i left Christianity and became agnostic that i realized how strange some of his beliefs are, i sometimes look back at his videos and see how much i have changed since back then and also how glad i am to have escaped it.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

congrats on finding the truth. I know the feeling, so hard to believe what we used to believe

[@vladimirgrbic8325]

This morning I sincerely wanted daylight not to reveal itself to me, because I was so tired and wanted to sleep some more, get a quality rest. But, out of the blue, daylight presented itself to me in its full glory! 🌞😳🥴 I guess I wasn't sincere enough, because of my multilayered complex psychology... whataeva'. 😎 And that's the problem of daylight unhiddenness.

[@FoursWithin]

Im beginning to doubt rhe sincerity of apologists who claim to have deeply looked into skeptical arguments .

[@utenatenjou2139]

I like your clear argument in response to Mike's claim. Somehow, I saw an age-old recurring theme from religion apologist when it come to hard questions (Divine Hiddenness, ProblemOfEvil, Disproportional of Hell time). -- " It's your fault, not God's " (as you had mentioned that these apologist has presupposition that can't be wrong. ) So it comes down to blame game. Which is a borderline close to cult-like manipulation (see BITE model) Another angle of God can't be wrong, is " Why can't God make thing right? "(assume that he can and he has a will)

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Appreciate the feedback and the additional insight. Thanks for being here!

[@Electricalpenguin]

Thanks for the video! I think Mike Winger is starting from the assumption that it’s impossible for someone to sincerely seek the truth and not end up a Christian. I also think one of the underlying reasons is that, if it is possible, then someone can end up in hell even if they did their best. And that doesn’t mesh very well with the idea of god being perfectly just or the notion that the people in hell deserve to be there.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Exactly! This is the sickness. If you cant admit to the truth because its so ugly that you’d rather be deceitful to others just to shelter yourself then theres a problem.

[@istvansipos9940]

and I think that he simply lies for a living. Selling bullsh!t in the biggest, richest g0d market? "Accidentally" the bullsh!t of the best selling g0d? No. winger, like we all, lives 2 clicks away from all human knowledge, and he has been corrected many many many times about magic. his only way to stay this wrong this long: Intentionally. No benefit of the doubt here.

[@OldNewsIsGoodNews]

Re: The insincerely seeking segment, in addition to the fact that sincere seekers do exist, I don't have to try that hard to find/seek out most of the people whom I know exist, sincerely or otherwise. I didn't know most of my friends existed as specific individual people (as opposed to just knowing that people in general exist, which is another tangent for another time) before I met them at work, an event, a class, or whatever else. I didn't go out *seeking* them specifically, and yet i know they exist. Same goes for KZbinrs, politicians, actors, or whoever else I know exists because I've seen them in papers, on TV, and so on. I didn't go out *seeking* to know that Obama, Trump, or Biden exist and are the three most recent American presidents. But I still encountered that information and didn't reject their veracity. If those very normal, fallible humans are capable of making their existence known to me without me actively looking for them (and in most cases without them intentionally trying to make their presence known to me, either!), I shouldn't need to go out *seeking* an all-powerful being in order for that being to make his/her/its/cactus' existence known to me if that's what said being wants. Doesn't really matter if I'm actively seeking, much less whether I'm being sincere about it! If I can know that Ted Cruz exists by reading the newspaper or turning on the radio, then it should be at least that simple for an all-powerful God who actively wants to be known by everybody in the first place! (And I ain't buying the free will thing, because just like with all the politicians mentioned here, I can know that somebody exists and still freely like or dislike them.)

[@timhallas4275]

I spent 10 years of my life sincerely seeking Santa Claus. I found that quest to be identical in every way to my quest to meet God. Even the end results were precisely the same. I found the truth instead. My belief is, most people who claim to believe in God, do so because they desire to have the benefits that they have been told come from faith in God, but maintain that faith by ignoring truth at every turn. I have yet to find the one who can embrace scientific truth AND hold a real faith in God. Some do a good job of faking one or the other to fool people around them, but I can see right through them. An intelligent Christian is someone who inherited the title and has little regard for it's meaning.

[@apreviousseagle836]

This is the BIGGEST problem for me. We have to pray from a humble perspective. We can't get angry that we never get any replies. The moment we get angry, God goes "ohpp!! you got angry! I don't reply to angry people, sorry". Wouldn't God, if he loved me, try to ease my anger? Jonah got mad because God saved people that desperately deserved to die horribly, and all God could do was mock him. But ironically, at least that was an answer. We don't even get that.

[@alanhyland5697]

The problem with Mike Winger is that he seems to be always preaching to the choir. These arguments make sense to a believer. They also allow the Christian to feel a sense of superiority over others.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

yes, thats the scary part. how many christians who are doubting hear about this good argument, type it in youtube. And up pops Mike to reassure them, make them feel foolish for ever doubting, and give enough excuses to ease their doubts. This happened to me a lot towards my end with christianity. Just relying on others to alleviate the questions I was too scared to really get an answer for.

[@alanhyland5697]

@@MindShift-Brandon Me too. That's how I even found Mike Winger.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

well thankfully, we both made it out

[@aagereinertjakobsen4832]

Divine hiddenness imo is a pretty strong counter to claims of religious experience because it addresses the arrogance of claiming that the creator of existence cares more about some people than he does others based on completely arbitrary criteria. Some people get to 'talk' to their god on a daily basis, whereas the rest of us are left lost in fog with no discernible reason to see the divine in anything in our lives.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Exactly! Well said. Thanks for being here.

[@ByronAgain]

I left the church because of people like Mike. The dishonesty, the endless reek of smug, arrogant sanctimony. Dodging questions, discouraging any sincere inquiry and badgering people who dared to ask anything that tested the veracity of the faith. One day enough was enough.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

I wish i would have known about winger. Perhaps i would have deconverted earlier. Ha.

[@pmtoner9852]

God got really stingy with his appearances soon after the invention of Photography

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ha indeed!

[@druidriley3163]

Yup. The more we got the technology to record and document miracles, the less these things have happened.

[@manuelbaez7148]

I really wish you & others would stop apologizing for doing what’s absolutely right by exposing these POS!!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ha! Thanks Manuel. My only apology is putting two winger videos in front of everyone in 3 days.

[@laurenpatricia411]

Mike is not a piece of shit. Because you disagree with him, you resort to name calling? I pray you find peace.

[@luketeeninga7106]

I did my PhD on the Problem of Divine Hiddenness, and what's interesting is that almost none of the academic literature on this problem defends this kind of response (there are a few isolated cases, but they have tended to misunderstand the original argument). And yet it seems to be the most common response defended by pop-level apologists, which is baffling to me. One of the more interesting kinds of responses suggests that maybe relating with God doesn't actually require that one believes that God exists (Andrew Cullison and Terence Cuneo have some of the more interesting versions of this kind of response - I'm very inclined to agree with Cullison's argument, though it's narrower in scope and so can't solve the whole problem. I'm more skeptical about Cuneo's argument, but, if it's right, it's essentially universal - though may still have some unresolved issues to iron out). Of course, I think folks like Mike Winger aren't going to like this kind of response because they won't think it's orthodox (which I don't even necessarily think is true, but I'm not looking to offer a defense here). So they have to go for this more radical type of claim that, really, every nonbeliever is actually rejecting God. If you're interested in diving more deeply into this problem, J.L. Schellenberg is the most prolific advocate for the problem of Divine Hiddenness, and it's much more sophisticated than just "lack of evidence for God = evidence against God", which you'll sometimes see pop-level Atheist apologists say (kind of). Stephen Maitzen has what I think is the *most* compelling version of the hiddenness argument, because he appeals to the uneven distribution of theism both geographically and temporally, and uses an appeal to the best explanation to suggest that naturalism better explains this phenomenon than theism.

[@JDrocks4ever]

The major flaws that I see in Mike’s argument against the sincerity of people who seek God and don’t find him are: 1. He may be able to question the sincerity of an atheist trying God for 2 weeks and not seeing God reveal himself, but how does he explain ex-Christians? Ex-Christians who believed for years and decades, even serving ministerial roles and going to seminary bc of their faith choosing to walk away and finding other explanations for what they thought was God? How could he possibly say that these people were never sincere at any point of time while they were believers? “Faith without deeds is dead”, right? All their deeds pointed to them being real believers. 2. Jesus says that it only takes a mustard seed-sized faith to move mountains, so how much faith does someone have to express in order for God to not be hidden? This is my biggest issue with the “they were never truly saved” crowd. How much faith does it take to truly get the Holy Spirit? Bc according to Jesus it should be fairly easy. At worst, all it should take is one moment of genuine sorrow and guilt over one’s sin and acknowledging a need for a savior. But Cornelius’ conversion goes to show that you don’t even have to exert that much to be saved. He and his friends were just listening to preaching then received the Holy Spirit in the middle of Peter giving the gospel message. Seems pretty easy in the book. What explanation does anyone have for it not being that easy now? And how arrogant it is to question someone’s sincerity when they assure you that they were truly sincere and have receipts to prove it. The real issue is that they don’t actually know and refuse to admit it, so they resort to these vague, indirect, and lazy conclusions then move on. It always results in “we can’t know everything. His ways are higher. Just believe anyways or else.”

[@zJohnnyMac]

It's definitely a confusing theory. Although how can one be sure they even hear from God? If the world is at odds with its own duality, then a revealing could be tricking you entirely. We approach these topics assuming God would be trying to fix you... Though this world doesn't satisfy that. It's more of a "Do what you want and see what happens". Test things, ask questions, but to dismiss the possibility that there is objective Good? I think is foolish, because we as people disagree so much, something MUST have a last say. Like a police officer, then a judge, then a president. What has the last say on Hitler? Death seems to always be the final answer to everything... Yet the only reason you stay alive is because you hope you can live long enough to do something.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

I hear you. Thank you for this comment and adding in to the conversation!

[@bobjeankins2639]

He’s not really a low hanging fruit as you say Brandon. He’s got a large audience and his beliefs have consequences. I say to keep challenging then man

[@HeatherLynn624]

Yes please! This man needs to be challenged as much as possible. He seemed more interested in spreading hate than anything else. He wants to scare Christians and thinking everyone that doesn’t agree with them is out to get them. He tells his audience not to trust the skeptics and nonbelievers because they’re all evil and they lie. It doesn’t matter how educated the skeptic may be on the topic he claims they will twist the truth and leave out half the evidence just to manipulate them. He then turns around and does exactly what he accuses skeptics of doing and Christians don’t see it. It boggles my mind. He needs to be stopped.

[@loc7909]

It would take very little evidence to convince most non-believers or at least convince us that there's a plausible argument to have ..

[@xtina2189]

God be like: whatever I am & do is what good is... because I said so, & I'm selfless & loving because I said so." Or "because someone else said I said so... I'm soooo important I wouldn't dare speak for myself.

[@richardgardiner242]

As a lifetime atheist, I'm absolutely and sincerely *not* looking for god. The whole concept of god makes no sense to me and never has. I have read and heard multiple reasons why god exists and none of them have sufficient intellectual or emotive strength to change my mind. The dishonesty of people like Mike Winger (and many other apologists) just makes them unpleasant.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Cant imagine what it would be like to be free of this harmful, ridiculous belief since birth. Thanks for watching!