Do Catholics Believe in Predestination?

Dr. John Bergsma, author of "Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls", reflects on the mass readings for October 16, 2020. If you have any further questions about this or any topic, feel free to leave them in the comment section below!
Ephesians 1:11-14
Psalm 33
Luke 12:1-7
Learn more about Dr. Bergsma's books at bit.ly/2ZXlJPQ

[@salliedalton9591]

I look forward to these lessons every day. I have learned so much and always enjoy the humor that is slipped in at just the right time. I know you all need time off, but I would love seven days a week of these bible studies. Just sayin’😊. God bless you and your ministry. I am glad you are Catholic as you and the others are all great teachers.

[@theclapaolini4322]

Thank-you this clear explanation we can answer those who take this subject full of strange ideas.Good day to all of you.

[@MrGuyJacks]

Like a healthy relationship a kid has with one's Father, he loves you and doesn't want you to fear him, but at the same time you ought to have a healthy respect and fear if you will lest you don't do as you're told and misbehave. I think the Thomistic understanding of God's Positive and Permissive will is great to understanding this position. God has a plan for your life, but you have the free will to cooperate with it or to disobey and therefore separate yourself from him. Nevertheless until you die God will not give up on you and continue to call for you to come back to him by his Grace, because he wants you to be saved but will allow you to die separated from himself out of Respect for your Free Will.

[@randolphguerrero1960]

Amen! Another homerun Dr. B. Keep them coming. I keep you and your in prayer. God's will be done in all things. 🙏

[@zsofiasz.8533]

Thank you! 🎉🎉

[@andrewferg8737]

The Providence of Love: "Thy brother came with subtilty, and hath taken away thy blessing... Behold, I have made him thy lord, and all his brethren have I given to him for servants; and with corn and wine have I sustained him: and what shall I do now unto thee, my son?" (Genesis 27) "hast thou but one blessing, my father? bless me, even me also, O my father. And Esau lifted up his voice, and wept" (Genesis 27) "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (Ephesians 1) “But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive” (Genesis 50)

[@gilberturesti338]

thank you for the explanation, sometimes Christians forget about God's grace and how our free will interacts with the plan of God.

[@EspadaTriunfante]

Between this man and the Bible, I'm left with the Bible that says there is predestination (Is 49.1 - Galatians 1.15, etc. etc.) Marcos - USA ' CT

[@Rugbylacroose4life]

God Bless you Dr Bergsma!

[@EcclesiastesLiker-py5ts]

God dignifies us with free will, the power to make decisions of our own rather than having God or fate predetermine what we do. Consider what the Bible teaches. God created humans in his image. (Genesis 1:26) Unlike animals, which act mainly on instinct, we resemble our Creator in our capacity to display such qualities as love and justice. And like our Creator, we have free will. To a great extent, we can determine our future. The Bible encourages us to “choose life . . . by listening to [God’s] voice,” that is, by choosing to obey his commands. (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) This offer would be meaningless, even cruel, if we lacked free will. Instead of forcing us to do what he says, God warmly appeals to us: “O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river.”-Isaiah 48:18. Our success or failure is not determined by fate. If we want to succeed at an endeavor, we must work hard. “All that your hand finds to do,” says the Bible, “do with your very power.”(Ecclesiastes 9:10) It also says: “The plans of the diligent one surely make for advantage.”-Proverbs 21:5. Free will is a precious gift from God, for it lets us love him with our “whole heart”-because we want to.-Matthew 22:37. Doesn’t God control all things? The Bible does teach that God is Almighty, that his power is not limited by anyone other than himself. (Job 37:23; Isaiah 40:26) However, he does not use his power to control everything. For example, the Bible says that God was “exercising self-control” toward ancient Babylon, an enemy of his people. (Isaiah 42:14) Similarly, for now, he chooses to tolerate those who misuse their free will to harm others. But God will not do so indefinitely.-Psalm 37:10, 11.

[@ToxicallyMasculinelol]

This isn't an easy issue to be solved with simple prooftexting. There are Bible verses that militate for predestination too. Just look at the verse that caused us to start using the phrase in the first place, Romans 8:29-30: 29 For those God foreknew he also _predestined_ to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. So, if predestination means what you're suggesting, that free will to faith is free yet predestined in the same sense that Pharaoh's hardening of his heart is, then it implies that everyone is foreknown and predestined in the same way the entire universe is, which implies universalism, which would make all of Jesus' warnings meaningless. If it was obvious what all the implications of this should be, there wouldn't be dozens of different theological opinions on the matter. We wouldn't have many people convinced of so-called doctrines like "double predestination" for example, which essentially rejects the freedom of the will, at the very least with respect to salvation. It's not obvious to me at all, since the Bible seems to contradict itself on this, or gives such a nuanced account that we can't even grasp the mechanics of it.

[@Edward-ng8oo]

Predestination is completely incompatible with free will. It's impossible, given that God chooses who to save from eternity, that we as humans can decide for ourselves whether to be saved or not. Erasmus who was Catholic also tried to argue that predestination is compatible with free will, but Luther, in The Bondage of the Will, proved from Scripture and reason that we don't have free will. Also Paul in Romans 9 teaches double predestination so it's impossible for someone who is predestined by God to be damned to be able to choose to be saved. The fact that God determines who is to be saved and who is to be damned completely overturns any notion of us humans having any say in our eternal destiny.

[@normarosales1768]

This is one subject in religion that confused me. Predestination vis-à-vis freewill. Theologians speak of this the way St Paul explained the faith in his epistles. Very confusing. Today I was watching the video about Andrea Bocelli's Catholic faith. In it, he briefly mentioned predestination. He simply said that our life becomes predestined when we place it entirely in God's hands. Suddenly the subject became self explanatory to me. BRILLIANT!!!

[@desmondbishop5808]

If you want to believe in something. You will. Predestination and Free Will are not difficult to understand, lying to yourself is difficult to do. You woke up today and told yourself that you are not good enough, you spent all day trying to do better, and you will go to bed believing you're not good enough but you can do better. If I was in you head, and you saw everyone going with what I say. It would no different. "From now on, soup is eaten with a butter knife. Handle.. You'd do it. Nobody wants to argue, because nobody knows how to be alone. It's easy to see, it takes effort argue against your own mind Everybody around is helping each other stay in place. Look again, do it for you.

[@lovejesuschrist3063]

Interesting. Is pre-destination completely fixed? Given that Our Lady of Fatima said that many souls go to Hell because they have no one to pray for them, doesn't this suggest that our final destination not only depends on our own free will, but on other people's free will too (if, in their charity, they agree to pray for us)? So if others have a say in our destination, does this mean it is not necessarily set in stone?

[@Verge63]

If you pray for someone salvation isn't that work?

[@shamuscrawford]

​@@po18guyThere is a potential for each person to be saved but only a potential for the nonelect, salvation only actually exists for the elect. This is because damnation is the punishment for sin and all are guilty of sin from Adam therefore God chooses some to salvation and allows the rest to remain in their sins. This is God's providence in regards to salvation which we call in the Catholic Church "predestination". You can read about this in St. Thomas. This in no way contradicts free will because although God wills some to remain in their sins, God never wills anyone to sin nor does he determine whether anyone sins in this or that way in particular. God's mercy in salvation is that he chooses some from among all the guilty and saves them not because of anything good he sees in them but because he is merciful to them, God's justice is such that he reprobates the rest so that he can demonstrate his wrath for sin on those who freely choose to violate His law. Glory to his power and everlasting righteousness ❤

[@Racingbro1986]

@@shamuscrawfordsounds very Calvinistic

[@shamuscrawford]

@@Racingbro1986 don't care, where do you think they got it from? The scholastic concensus in the medieval period. Starting with Ss. Augustine, Fulgentius and Prosper into Anselm and Peter Lombard leading to Aquinas and then perfected by the Baroque scholastics like John of St. Thomas, Cajetan and Domingo Banez. It's just a modern Innovation with no majesterial support, the denial of so called "calvinistic predestination" which they just inherited from us.

[@Racingbro1986]

@@shamuscrawford I was not saying it as a bad thing, I’m a Calvinist leaning Protestant , it was just pleasing to see that the Calvinist view on predestination was not on an island but more of a peninsula.

[@catholicfemininity2126]

I don't like this topic cause it gives me anxiety and scrupulosity and tries to take my peace away. So I just see it as God sees 2 futures, his perfect plan and his plan but with our disobedience and sins. Padre Pio told a woman in confession who had an abhorrtion that her son was meant to become a Bishop or Pope but now of course, that won't happen. God also sees our predestination if we were to die RIGHT now. AT least, this is what I think.

[@michaelmicek]

It occurs to me that maybe "God does not play dice with the world", but not in the sense that Einstein meant it, but rather that he chooses the outcome of every quantum event.

[@CristianaCatólica]

Stay sway from New Age.. GOD BLESS HIS ONE AND ONLY CATHOLIC :)

[@michaelmicek]

@@CristianaCatólica not sure how what I said has to do with the New Age.

[@richiegagnon5632]

he does not chose he knows

[@kevinphillips150]

There is no such thing as 'Ordinary Time' in the Roman Catholic Church. Does that mean the rest of the information is incorrect?

[@mauroromero8100]

How not? It's the largest period of the liturgical year.

[@swilliams7850]

He never answered his own question. He changed it from does God choose to does God know us. Leighton Flowers has a much more coherent and biblically supported response to this question.

[@misslauren319]

The real question is what kind of predestination do Catholic believe in , for Roman do believe that we are predestined to be certain things if we along Gods will to reign in our lives

[@andrewschott3635]

Amen, thank you

[@cesargarcia7074]

From the kindness of my heart "etc." is pronounced as it is spelled out: et cetera.

[@magnuseng3345]

Dr. Bergsma is a busy man; he can't afford to spend time pronouncing all those letters.

[@nsmc555]

Thank you 💚🤝💚

[@rickzabala6020]

If some individuals are predestined, would the evil one know and setup barriers to prevent pursuant of such objectives and goal? If so how to subdue or obtain protection? Some would know they have a specific purpose from God and so they pursue it no matter what. For some, don't so much know maybe because much smoke 👹 or other, how would or could such person get on track?

[@DenisOhAichir]

We are chosen yes, we have the freedom to give glory to God by our actions.

[@jdf6770]

I don´t get this thing. According to St Thomas (as far as I understood it) God predestines some to eternal life without infringing their free will. But if he chooses some and reprobates others, he makes a distinction and loves some more than others. But so many times I hear, that God loves each one of us like a good father. And actually i really badly want that to be true. How does he really love us as a father his children, if he won´t bring the salvation of some to completion, even though he could do it without doing harm to my free will (according to this logic). How can I know for sure God loves me to the degree of 1. wanting and 2. bringing about my salvation? Please help!

[@MCProduckshins]

St. Thomas says that it is better not to speculate about why God chooses some to receive the grace of salvation and others He leaves to their own devices because those decisions are hidden within the counsels of God, and even when we see God face to face, it will be partially obscured to our limited minds. But I personally find a maxim of Augustine to be helpful when thinking/wondering about my own destiny: “live as if you are one of the elect, and you probably are” (paraphrase). If God is giving you the grace to be concerned about your salvation, then it is not unreasonable to believe that you are on the path to heaven and that God is working to get you there. For the rest, “sufficient for each day is its own evil.” Basically stay in your lane. It doesn’t resolve the question but it’s the best we can do this side of Jordan.

[@xTheSchnitzel]

@@MCProduckshins Hm, Thanks. This is helpful in a way.

[@tinag7506]

I think it's all about an aggregate of each person's good and bad works...if a person has a certain no: of pitfalls and grave sins in their lives, then they become predestined to be damned. For eg: people who willfully give away their body to demons . Chances of them being saved are ..well.. nill or very very less unless they miraculously have a change of heart. On the other hand people who do repent due to grace will have their predestined ill fated changed to a more hopeful one with heavenly bliss. It's all about God seeing different outcomes. All outcomes are probable, but some have a better probability, if the factors (ie choices) are geared in a certain way. I don't know if my comment would help, but this is how I see it

[@MCProduckshins]

@@tinag7506 your position is called Molinism, which hasn’t been condemned so technically you can hold that. But the problem is that it makes God into a passive observer- seeing what *we* do and then responding to us, when in fact there is nothing passive in God, He is pure act. To say that He waits to see what we will do is to say that we are the first cause of our salvation which is the heresy of pelagianism… Plus, talking about “changing” our fate or predestination is a contradiction. Not attacking, just clarifying.

[@irenelourdes2462]

Tqvm Dr John. God bless you

[@Zematus737]

As for predestination. We have examples in the holy book of what we would call destiny and fates. We know that some stars are set in the sky for some men. They are 'destined' for things sometimes, as in the case of Jabez (1 Chronicles 4:9), God can intervene and shift our fate. This is why I disagree with predestination in the way Luther and Calvin see it. Prayer unties predestination, it looses the cords of fate and generational sin so that we can pay the debts from a point of advantage rather than disadvantage. If there was such a thing as predestination from the beginning, it would make no sense for God to ever change a person's name, as he did with Abraham and maybe even Jabez. Jacob also had a name change. He went from struggling with his brother in the womb for the prize of the first-born (which he won later by deceit), to one who struggles with God. What is God? God is of the moment. He is a responsive being, therefore predestination can be better seen through the lens of Isaiah 43:4. It is all in the hands of God, which responds according to our own will. Can God foretell a persons stubbornness? Yes, as he did with pharaoh and the Israelites after their constant complaints in the desert. But there was someone to pray for them. Moses prayed when he went up to the mountain. He threw himself before the Lord, and as the first thing he was to do, begged for the clemency of the Israelites. Prayer can overcome nature. Prayer can defy the stars. In freely choosing to turn towards God, he can grant us a new name. What is missing? Just someone to ask.

[@geoffwilson9273]

Interesting, 1Cor. 12 outlines a different perspective, can a head be born without a body, if we are the body of Christ, then we have been realized from all time, but a body can grow, take damage, heal; in the end, all its members accounted for. St. Louise De Montfort-pray for us. Queen of all Hearts-pray for us.

[@Zematus737]

@@geoffwilson9273 If all that will be has been known, how is it then that a God can be surprised? As in the case of the Canaanite woman who pleads for crumbs of healing for her daughter, or by the faith of the centurion who rushed out to meet Jesus before he could arrive at his house. How could he be stirred to tears by the grief of Mary and Martha or to laughter by the sprawl of little children? How is the Church being formed if it has already been? How can the appointed day be unknown to Christ while living? The point is that is it both freewill AND fate that are in play here, otherwise there is no such thing as an exchange of one for another and no meaning behind sacrifices or penance, whether the heart is stirred or slow to act. It is both, because some can be determined from afar, while others wrestle between the two. It is apparent to those on the front line, but not so clear to others who only see the outcome of a dynamic event. The latter see only the smoke or the rider bringing news, whose appearances are always familiar, while the first witness the spark ignite and the dying of lights. To gentle streams all that passes is like an afterthought. In that there may be peace, but courage is for the other kind.

[@geoffwilson9273]

@@Zematus737 I did not disagree with your statement but now we have a different can of worms. Either God is all knowing, or He is not; all powerful, etc. Either the sacrifice at Calvary was planned from the beginning or it was an afterthought. Of course, the permissive will of God plays into every aspect;;ie, Jesus being Obedient to Mary and Joseph, it allows us to falter, be scrupulous, etc. also to be virtuous which without Calvary would hold no merit. There is also room for the changing of hearts, for prayer and penance to be used to increase the Body of Christ. The Church states in CCC 1037 that only the elect have been predestined, not the reprobate. As for Christ being Surprised, He was also Human, a natural reaction. We can see from simple things like that He ate food, did not cast himself off the edge of the cliff when tempted and in that did not use His Divine Power to simply destroy Satan at that instance. There was much of His life that embraced His humanity, especially suffering on Calvary. FYI I am no theologian or authority on this or any other subject. Just an interested slave of Christ.

[@Zematus737]

@@geoffwilson9273 I don't think we are in disagreement in anything. As I said, some things were landmarks in salvation history that they could not be avoided, and so became predestined. The cross was predestined, and even by the merest chance unnecessary, was still deemed as more perfectly fitting to The Father's will that it was not left to question or negotiation, as we were made known in Gesthemane. Glory to God. We wait and make allowances and preparations for whatever will be our lot.

[@Zematus737]

@@geoffwilson9273 Let me put it this way. The Lord can see so far ahead, that you might as well should say that He already knows. He could see in seven ways what your next step forward can bring you. He can see, again, seven ways where a backward step can bring you. He could offer you any one of these, and make you aware of them, if it pleases him, or warn you also by the same means. The idea is that your story is not over until you're dead, and your ripples in the pond don't suddenly stop when you die. When The Lord says, "I have seen these people, and they are a stubborn and stiff necked people.." then it is because He knows already the heart nand the will and, therefore, the day. He offers us two paths, the path to life or the path to destruction, because there are roads we must take and must walk by our own feet. That is freewill. We do not always get to choose the road, but we do choose how we walk. To God who is, all things are.

[@marymccannfrancis9855]

Amen ❤

[@MasterKeyMagic]

Socialists and communists are not bolsheviks. The early christians more closely resembled anarcho-communists than capitalists or any right wing ideology

[@w4in]

Stop acting a fool. Whenever you were saying option c, I thought you were saying yes, si!

[@michaelmcevoy5282]

I would like to invite who ever reads this to join me in a novena to Our Lady.That she will grant Donald Trump and the Republicans victory in November.Novena 25th October-2nd November.Ave Maria ❤🌹🕊

[@w4in]

God's will be done.