Do Latter-day Saints Believe Black People were Less Faithful in Heaven?

[@dl1130]

When I grew up it was a well taught teaching. So was the reason someone was born here in the U.S. while others were born in other areas of the world such as Africa or third world countries.

[@TRUTHandLIGHT4809]

We are where we are, physically born because it's the test we need. The popular ideas are not doctrine because you heard them often

[@Retromansir]

Weird how a book titled "Mormon Doctrine" could be misconstrued and deemed mere speculation...Besides he definitely was not the only one to teach this, JFS and others who were full on prophets did teach that blacks as well as those with physcial/mental handicaps were less valiant and still willing to come here (see doctrines of salvation) That book and many others are still on sale today in deseret book stores. Doesn't sound to me like the church disavowed anything if theyve never apologized and continued to make money off those teachings.

[@JustinPratt1]

Mormon Doctrine was one of only a few books allowed for missionaries for decades. It was literally published in missionary instructions they could take the "missionary library" into the field and this book was part of it.

[@M3rluzz0]

At times, the LDS Christian culture has absorbed outside influences such as protestant racism or radical liberalism. None of those ideas are taught in our scriptures, nor were they taught by Joseph Smith.

[@JustinPratt1]

@@M3rluzz0 So the gauge is, if its not in the scriptures or from Joseph Smith, it is not doctrine? So what use were all the prophets and apostles after him?

[@Retromansir]

@M3rluzz0 and at times the LDS doctrines and culture have perpetuated their own uniquely racist and harmful doctrines that have nothing to do with Christianity such asCain and Ham being black. Which was indeed taught by Joseph...see how easy this game is? The argument is how things like this are never owned up to and swept under the rug. Maybe I'm just not understanding the translation of "disavowing" similar to a skin of blackness or horses, etc. Probably just a me thing...

[@M3rluzz0]

@@JustinPratt1 Well in a typical modern General Conference, the apostles and prophets teach timeless truths which have already been revealed, and most of the new information tends to be policies rather than new doctrines. There can be new truths revealed by modern apostles and prophets of course, but if they aren’t congruent with what we know to be true, they should be disavowed.

[@woodystube1000]

I have a very sincere question for the person in this video (in several parts). Is the information in these videos sanctioned and official "Church" doctrine? In other words, who exactly decides what the "church's" position is on a given topic? You present information in your videos as fact regarding the church's position and I am just wondering if your videos are reviewed and approved by someone authorized to speak directly for the church. We all have opinions, memories of what we were taught in the church as youth, and our own interpretations of talks, scripture, and doctrinal writings. So, how do you know your representation of this information is correct, per "The church.?" Thanks

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@woodystube1000 No! This video is definitely not official church doctrine, and neither is Dr.Reeves lying essay! Official church doctrine consists of the standard works and those first presidency statements that are ratified by the quorum of the twelve and the church as a whole, for example, the Family Proclamation. And, the scriptures themselves bear out the truth of what I have stated as well as the statement I quoted from Joseph Smith as well as what so many prophets and apostles have taught already! READ my first comment!!!

[@mycatwould]

Here’s my take-away…sometimes understanding revelation is hard and I get it wrong a lot myself, and church leaders have to try and do this for the entire body of the church. In ancient days, Aaron was a leader (under Moses), and - under pressure of the people - he built them a golden calf to worship. This was later corrected when Moses came down with the ORIGINAL stone tablets and crushed the golden calf, after which a new set of commandments (the 10 commandments as we know it, or the lesser law) was given as the people were not prepared for the higher law. God will never take away man’s agency - and sometimes that will lead to mistakes. He is still in control, and this is His Church, and although sometimes things might not come out as perfect as He originally intended, as He works through imperfect channels (us fallible humans), His plan is perfect and He will always make a way for a course correction. I was thinking about this whole thing yesterday and wondering why, if the Blacks were never to be denied the temple or priesthood, would the Lord allow it to go on for so long? Again, in Moses’ time this was all restricted from any Israelite except the tribe of Levi for over 2000 years - when Jesus came and restored things and allowed the priesthood to come to all. No idea why, but it was - and I trust God to know why, even though it likely has nothing to do with premortal actions, who He likes better, etc. Some answers we may never know until we meet Him and everything will be explained and we will see how merciful and wise His plan is. We see things in the temporal nature; He sees the eternal plan.

[@francismensah6574]

To your point about the Priesthood being restricted to Levites, I think it was more about them being given the responsibility to be in charge of Temple Ordinances, similar to having ordinace workers today. In fact, members of other tribes did actually hold the Priesthood, like several prophets, including in the Old Testament and Book of Mormon. Also, no Israelite was restricted from Temple Ordinances, unlike how people of African descent were. When the Priesthood was restored, the Lord revealed the qualifications to receiving it in the D&C, and non were race related. There is no revelation to the contrary. We know the Priesthood and Temple ban started around 1852, not during Joseph Smith's time as prophet. So, why would the Lord allow it to go on for so long? Well, I think it comes down to Agency. God allows us to make choices, and we have to live with the consequences - good or bad. Personally, I believe it may have arisen mainly from the culture of the time. Remember, other churches at the time had similar policies

[@kuriju88]

@mycatwould “God will never take away man’s agency” Except when it benefits Joseph Smith like when he sends an angel with a drawn sword to make Joseph enter into more relationships with women or when he sends an angel to take away the gold plates, instead we’ve got trust me bro. God has priorities. Why send an angel to stop racism and slavery or Putin from invading Ukraine when he could send one to Joseph to make sure that he really took his directive to plow his teenage foster daughters seriously. Please awaken.

[@kuriju88]

@mycatwould if only God cared as much about slavery and racism as he did about making sure Joseph Smith got enough of his foster daughters and maids in his bed than maybe he would have sent an angel with a drawn sword to prevent those things. Priorities, I guess.

[@jAAbRON]

So what else have prophets got wrong in their revelations?

[@dwRS1]

​@@jAAbRONYou might read the book of Mormon, pray about it or you can just keep trying to make fun of and run down things you don't understand. Maybe you are smarter than the modern day prophets. I will listen.

[@guillermocastillo7101]

You speak very nicely, but the truth is that the leaders taught that black people are less valuable to God. That is a truth that cannot be denied.

[@mycatwould]

And she explained that it was not based on scripture or any doctrine - but was speculation as to why the priesthood and temple ban was a thing (which it maybe never should have been). Here’s my take-away…sometimes understanding revelation is hard and I get it wrong a lot myself, and church leaders have to try and do this for the entire body of the church. In ancient days, Aaron was a leader (under Moses), and - under pressure of the people - he built them a golden calf to worship. This was later corrected when Moses came down with the ORIGINAL stone tablets and crushed the golden calf, after which a new set of commandments (the 10 commandments as we know it, or the lesser law) was given as the people were not prepared for the higher law. God will never take away man’s agency - and sometimes that will lead to mistakes. He is still in control, and this is His Church, and although sometimes things might not come out as perfect as He originally intended, as He works through imperfect channels (us fallible humans), His plan is perfect and He will always make a way for a course correction. I was thinking about this whole thing yesterday and wondering why, if the Blacks were never to be denied the temple or priesthood, would the Lord allow it to go on for so long? Again, in Moses’ time this was all restricted from any Israelite except the tribe of Levi for over 2000 years - when Jesus came and restored things and allowed the priesthood to come to all. No idea why, but it was - and I trust God to know why, even though it likely has nothing to do with premortal actions, who He likes better, etc. Some answers we may never know until we meet Him and everything will be explained and we will see how merciful and wise His plan is. We see things in the temporal nature; He sees the eternal plan.

[@aBrewster29]

@@mycatwouldseveral leaders taught this authoritatively over an extended time with no correction or counter. This included both verbal and printed teachings, both public and private. If you’re going to try and say that is not tantamount to an official church teaching in the eyes of the public, good luck finding anything that is. Allowing an idea to persist and spread when you could stop it is effectively the same as promoting it directly.

[@M3rluzz0]

You think it’s a truth?

[@JustinPratt1]

@@mycatwould So the fact that a large majority of church prophets and apostles taught this, and was even in a book published by the church (which the church still sells BTW) and was suggested missionaries read and study it for decades makes it just a "speculative statement"? Typical of LDS leaders, just downplay reality and not take responsibility for anything said or taught in the past.

[@danielthompson6631]

Oh good grief!! That's a bunch of non-sense!! Good grief, that IS NOT THE TRUTH. Some people will say ANYTHING to appear intelligent and be in the know. If anyone in the Church has ever taught that black people were or are lesser people in the site of God, they were excommunicated for teaching false doctorine! God loves us all equally and will judge every individual according to their hearts and works in this life. Color of skin has NOTHING to do with God's plan of happiness, which is the basis for all of God's teachings in the LDS Church.

[@michaelmichaelc1748]

The Saviour himself as l understand it only preached to the Jews or house of Israel and not to the gentiles which would come later through the Lord's servants, his apostles and others. We have to learn to trust in the Lord's timing .

[@danielthompson6631]

Bingo Michael!! My heck. What ridiculous fuss is being raised about this. Trust God, His timing, and in time All things will be revealed to the righteous and Faithful.

[@kcb5336]

⁠​⁠@@danielthompson6631this is not a ridiculous fuss! The LDS church taught for nearly 200 years that blacks were less valiant! No question about it. Suddenly the modern leadership is even calling the previous generations of leadership wrong. If you to think the concern is the reaction to it but not the church itself originating the concern itself then…you may need to learn to take an objective look at this.

[@danielthompson6631]

​@kcb5336 Hey bro. Im not gonna be rude or ignorant to you friend. You commented kindly to me, and it appears you did so with respect. So ill try to give you the same courtesy. I have been very active in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints for 50+ years. It sounds like erroneously, some members of The Church were taught this untrue doctorine your'e reffering to. Ibkniw the true and the false Doctorine of the LDslS Church. I was never taught it in my ENTIRE LIFE that blacks were less faithful in the premortal life.. That teaching was NEVER OFFICIAL Church Doctorine nor was it in Official Church Curriculum. EVER. Please understand that it was taught by multiple church individuals in the past that taught as their own opinion and assumption. And they were WRONG to do so. And it angers me that whomever(s) it was years ago that they taught it, and it is Not Doctorinal Fact. The damage done to The LDS Church and prospective members investigating joining The LDS Church is profound. And God will hold those who originated this false teaching will be held accountable by God on judgement day. And please also understand, that my Pioneer ancestors, as wellbas the pioneer ancestors of millions of those first generations of The Church after The Restoration from 1830 to 1847(thousands and thousands of INNOCENT men women and children) were murdered, raped, homes burned, and all matter of satanic persecution. #1 because of excersing their Constitutional rights to Freedom of Religion, and twaching and professing the True Gospel of Jesus Christ. And #2 Because they were ANTI SLAVERY!! They were driven out of the United States of America and had to flee to the Mexican Territory to escape Religious Persecution and escape because they stood against The United States Government because they viemently opposed SLAVERY. Blacks that made their way west to The UtahvTerritory with the Latter-Day Saints were largely free men because of The LDS Church policy against slavery. And sonce they were so opposed to slavery, when the Saints were centered on Missouri, Governor Lilburn Boggs issued a bounty, law, and EXTERMINATIIN ORDER in Missouri on October 27, 1838 against the Latter-Day Saints. Proclaiming that due to their stance against slavery they were to be driven from the state AND EXTERMINATED!! Their homes burned, their property taken at the point of the barrel of a gun. And thousands of innocent WHITE LDS men women and children were savagely and brutally murdered for OPPOSING SLAVERY and for proclaiming that Jesus IS the Christ. So. With the constant rhetoric about how bad blacks were/are treated in or by The LDS Church, I'd absolutely abhorrent. And for those of us that know The Doctorine, policies, and history, of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints....hearing the constant assumptions, accusations, and persecution towards The Gospel of Jesus Christ,and those of us that will stand by it even unto death. Even unto the death of our families in years past for being OPPOSED to SLAVERY and believing that in God's eyes, ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL. The constant persecution, hearsay, and harassment is ABSOLUTELY wrong and despicable. It's a tragedy that such false assumptive teachings about blacks or any other race has ever taken place. But know this, when LDS Church leadership discovered that these falsehoods were being taught, regardless of what tear it was. THEY PUT A STOP TO IT!! As has been the case throughout the history of the Church when it's discovered that ANY false doctorine has been discovered to being taught in The Church. In The LDS Church, it IS Church Doctorine that God loves all of His children equally. He does not love one race more than the other. Learn THE TRUTH of The Gospel of Jesus Christ and facts about history before believing false teachings, erroneous teachings, public hearsay and false truths. Pray and find out truth and ask for God's help to see through all the misunderstandings, confusion, and musts of darkness kcb friend. If yiu sincerely want clarity and true answers, I will give you sincere and true answers about God's restored truth on the earth. I honestly will. I hope I have helped you understand if you're wanting to sincerely find truth and answers. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter- Day Saints is God's ONLY true Church on the earth today. Don't listen to garbage and pot stirring, false lies, from self proclaimed " in the know" people like the uneducated fool that posted this video on the first place. Thank you for reading this kcb, it was long.

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@kcb5336 No! Dr. Reeves and other apostates are teaching it! The church official doctrine was taught correctly before! It was a low life underhanded scheme that Reeves and others sneaked that essay through before it got reviewed properly, and now what can the leaders do?!?!?!?

[@theodoremoore2549]

I was under the understanding that the Jews did not accept the Samaritans as Jews. Is my understanding wrong?

[@jAAbRON]

It's very much on-brand for the Mormon church to act like they never taught something when members can point to which prophets specifically said it. It's gaslighting at its finest! Edit: see Moses 7:8,22; Abraham 1:27; cross-reference D&C 128:9.

[@jackbeckman7028]

So you are referencing the "black" as being literal? How do you know it was literal, and not describing their souls figuratively? Abraham pointed out that the Priesthood was in a specific tribe, and that not all were extended the Priesthood. There are instances where kings thought they could claim Priesthood authority merely by being royalty, but they were wrong.

[@jAAbRON]

because it literally says it was a physical mark to make them less enticing to the white and delightsome Nephites. There's nothing to suggest it's not a literal phrase. The Book of Abraham makes it clear that the curse of Ham was physical and literal. Nephi said all things are temporal and spiritual. It says the Lamanite skin became white when they rejoined the Nephites. Mormon "prophets" said for 160 years that they KNEW it was literal. If there's proof that it wasn't literal, then Brigham Young was a false prophet and no one has to pay attention to the Brighamite sect.

[@jackbeckman7028]

@@jAAbRON You are reading things into the scriptures that aren't there. First, the reference was not the Book of Mormon and the Nephites, it was ancient Israel. Second, if it was literal, how did the Lamanites suddenly become white while among the Nephites, but could then go into the Lamanite camp and not be any different? Brigham spoke was he understood things, and we have many more revelations now than he did then. All subsequent Prophets have done the same. Joseph Smith, or Brigham Young or John Taylor or any since didn't receive all the information at one time and than we were left with just that. Revelations have continued since then, understanding has increased since then. If you want to stay in the past, knock yourself out. I prefer the living Prophets.

[@jAAbRON]

@@jackbeckman7028 You'll have to ask Joseph why it makes no sense, I'm only quoting his writings. You know, the ones he magically translated with a rock in a hat. You're literally the one reading things into scriptures when you tell me what it actually says isn't what it actually says. It doesn't make sense why God would "reveal" stuff to Brigham Young and then "reveal" the exact opposite to later prophets. Again, you're the one presupposing that, not me.

[@jAAbRON]

@@jackbeckman7028 because it's ridiculous given the wording. The passage says it was done to make the Lamanites "undesirable" to the Nephites. Why would God need to curse you with a "black soul" if that's just a consequence of sin already? How would a "black soul" make Lamanites undesirable when there were loads of wicked Nephites who were still "white and delightsome"? Appealing to Abrahamic tradition of "a specific tribe gets the Priesthood" doesn't work either because that is not what precluded the Lamanites from the gospel according to Joseph Smith. As soon as Lamanites accepted the gospel, they were able to preach and it even says their skin became "white and delightsome." I don't know how you get "soul" out of "skin" unless you cross your eyes and squint. Generations of Mormon "prophets" reiterated that 1) their word was the same as God's, and 2) that Lamanite "dark skin" was a literal curse of pigmentation. Now they have to backtrack and say "well we don't know," but it doesn't stop decades of teachings from people supposedly called to speak on behalf of deity. God sure does sound weak if he can't intervene to counter this logic to his ordained servants. It took brave PEOPLE to stand up to Mormon leaders for them to change their mind - there was nothing "divinely inspired" about it.

[@colt40fly]

This channel should be renamed to ScripturePlusGaslighting.

[@Petros-v2u]

Ironic that the book 'Mormon Doctrine' by a prophet, seer and revelator of the church at the time, is suddenly not historic doctrine. Of course, the doctrine has changed to match our modern sensibilities on race. But sadly, Im in my mid-50s and remember this doctrine taught openly at church in the 80s, 90s with respect to Blacks, that they were less valiant. Even after 1978, this prophet, seer and revelator never retracted these teaching from his book, which continued to sell and propagate this doctrine long after his death. I recommend the book 'Second Class Saints' by Matthew Harris to any member who wants to find some peace and clarity with respect to the racial doctrines of the past. I love this young lady and how hard she tries to always fit a square peg in a round hole for the church, but all this apoligetics becomes a lot easier if we just admit the church, apostles and prophets, have made big mistakes in the past, apoligize and move forward in disavowing prior 'wrong roads' of the past like polygamy, racism, and working on our current wrong roads of patriarchy and intolerance. Maybe our prophets, seers and revelators can stop being 30 years behind societal changes that we should be leading on, not sheepishly following, or being dragged kicking and screaming, years after the fact.

[@joncharlotteschoen]

Your comment about "intolerance", clearly you're referring to the the gay community, which I refuse to call lgbtqia, or whatever it is nowadays. Church doctrine is not going to change on this, as much as people would have us do so. We don't make the rules, God does. Was the priesthood ban wrong? Absolutely. Do we have all the answers or know why it existed? Not really. Will even prophets of the church make mistakes?, absolutely. None of us are perfect.

[@Petros-v2u]

@@joncharlotteschoen 'We don't make the rules, God does'. That's what members were saying about the priesthood ban and racist doctrines throughout the civil rights movement. 'Will even the prophets of the church make mistakes? absolutely'. Right, so the priesthood ban was wrong 'absolutely', and our leaders were making mistakes then, why is it a stretch to think our leadership are making the same types of mistakes right now that will be changed in the future and disavowed as doctrine. It takes very little to read the book I suggested, documented from church leaders diaries and official church records at the time. Its ok if you don't want to look at them, but there is no argument from faith here. Faith can be a belief in things that are not seen, but are true. But faith is not a belief in things that are verifiably false because someone tells you they are true.

[@joncharlotteschoen]

@@Petros-v2u I'm not going to even bother to read an anti LDS book. Have a great day.

[@RecoveringUGrad]

@@Petros-v2u there are so many fundamental falsehoods in your statement I don’t even know where to begin.

[@richarner3856]

Spencer Kimball never received a revelation that blacks could not hold the priesthood...he merely issued a statement that said they could

[@AnticipatingChristsreturn]

You are doing great things! Thank you Jasmin!

[@jacoboneil1524]

Sorry, but the concept of them being less valiant in the preexistence was not speculation. It was official church doctrine, and it is what I learned as a child growing up in the church. Of course, you're not old enough to remember this, but it is nonetheless true. Mckonkie wasn't just some guy who wrote down a few of his opinions in a book. He is the author of all the chapter headings in the LDS scriptures, and was considered the church scriptorian. In other words, he was the foremost authority in mormon doctrine, hence his church-sponsored book by the same name. There are many other things that the church used to teach that they do not teach anymore, such as a 6,000 year old earth, and Lamanites being the principle ancestors of the native americans. All these things change as time goes by, or should I say as they become disproven by scientific research. And the church will continue to change its doctrine accordingly.

[@joncharlotteschoen]

@@jacoboneil1524 If you don't believe (or no longer believe) then there's really no reason for you to care or even to comment, is there?

[@Workerofwood]

When I was a missionary, Bruce R was considered the final say on all doctrinal issues. It was widely understood that his statement about blacks being less valiant in the preexistence was the doctrine of the church. You are not allowed to say that some church authorities made some comments that are now disavowed. These were the doctrines that I was taught.

[@Workerofwood]

And by the way, I served my mission in Oakland, California. And had to answer this question all the time. My answers were poor then.

[@TexasTornado66]

Yep! It was well known and taught as church doctrine.

[@TheSandyStone]

Lot of yapping to agree leaders said that, and would have continued to say that, if the government and society didn't put pressure on them. Again.

[@jAAbRON]

It's almost as if Mormons learn true doctrine when the rest of the world convinces them to abandon backward traditions.

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@TheSandyStone BS!!!

[@TheSandyStone]

@@GeorgeDemetz oh, the pressure of byu athletics and the federal gov threatening shutting down byu and the one drop policy being a problem for Brazil all had nothing to do with “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.” Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, pg. 110, Oct. 6, 1863

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@TheSandyStone You dont know what the hell you are talking about, and you should study more church history and doctrine before you run off your cynical mouth! Its fools like you that ran off their ignorant mouths when the church stopped practicing polygamy! Continued...

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@TheSandyStone The evil satanic fools in congress were not satisfied to pass a law forbidding polygamy, but they wanted to break up the current families! Continued...t

[@corysimmons455]

Well in the book of mormon it says cursed black skin

[@scottstephenson4140]

Two thoughts. First, there is precedence of this in the Bible when Jesus taught that the Gentiles should not be taught the gospel until the revelation given to Peter prior to the baptism of Cornelius the centurion. The more important point is "Why?" ...in both cases. God is invested in the eternal salvation and exaltation of all his children. Our perspective is severely limited to a mortal, or earthly, frame of reference. In both these cases the church adopted, for a time, the prevailing opinion of the day and later expanded the inclusion to the larger population. Ponder how this decision may have been made with wisdom and foresight. Would the church have been allowed to organize and grow if they had contradicted the opinions of the people, in both cases? Remember, Peter was threatened with stoning after teaching the gospel to Cornelius, but I suspect the minds of the people had been prepared in such a way as to accept the direction of the prophet, Peter, after his relating to them his vision. The Lord is focused on eternal, not earthly goals. If the church needs to accomplish something for the eternal welfare of God's children, it may very well be directed to hold positions we struggle with because of our mortal, or earthly perspective. In both these cases, I suggest the policies have more to do with society as a whole...or perhaps with the membership of the church than it has to do with Gentile or Black people. The world sees this as racism, but that perspective is both defined by mortals as well as based on an earthly frame of reference. If your faith is based more heavily on what you think than on the confirmation of the Holy Spirit, then it is not faith at all--only an academic or intellectual opinion.

[@churtle1143]

You specifically only cite Bruce R. McKonkie as teaching this. You and I both know that all of the prophets of the Mormon church from Brigham Young to Spencer W. Kimball taught this doctrine. Omitting truth is still a lie. Sure, the leaders of the church disavow this doctrine now, but how can you justify the fact that this doctrine at one point DID EXIST? Assuming the Mormon church is the true church, until 1978 members of African descent were unable to participate in Temple ordinances due to this doctrine and ban. This means that all members of African descent were unable to receive the saving ordinances necessary for the highest degree of salvation in the Celestial Kingdom (Mormon heaven). Consequently, this would result in a heaven where one demographic in particular was excluded. Do Latter-day Saints believe black people were less faithful in Heaven? Not anymore..... Did Latter-day Saints believe black people were less faithful in Heaven? Yes they did, for ~130 years

[@markkrispin6944]

lying for the lord

[@M3rluzz0]

The way I see it, ‘doctrines’ found outside of scripture (as well as those not central to the Plan of Happiness) aren’t our core beliefs, and they’re subject to error. Whether by Brigham Young’s archaic personal beliefs, outside influence, or a desire to assimilate with the societal standards of his time, he introduced the discrimination in the Church, which the subsequent prophets felt they had to rationalize, getting their rationale from the protestant mainstream. Sorry for a long response, but I hope that clears things up a bit.

[@churtle1143]

@@M3rluzz0 I appreciate your response. As a former devout member, myself, I don’t desire to tear down anyones faith. However, this woman is not telling the whole truth. Mormon doctrine states that a prophet is someone who speaks FOR god and speaks TO god “face to face as a man speaketh with his friend” (Ex 33:11) The Mormon church either has prophets who speak to god and this came from god, or the men who preached it weren’t prophets. The Mormon church can’t have it both ways. If the church truly wants this doctrine to go down the memory hole, the church should issue an apology for the harm this doctrine caused instead of just saying, “ya we don’t believe that anymore” or “the older prophets were just men of their time.”

[@M3rluzz0]

@@churtle1143 I believe that even someone who speaks with God can get incorrect information from a non-divinely appointed source. It’s hard to see prophets make mistakes, especially when it’s recent enough that people who are alive today have been affected by them, but it makes more sense when I read about imperfect prophets in the scriptures.

[@johnrowley310]

@@M3rluzz0 You are throwing your early prophets under the bus. They taught it.....

[@diannaanderson]

Appreciate this! I heard such items both through BR McConkie's book AND many long-time members who were co-missionaries in my mission (back in the mid-1980's) who were still propagating the idea(s) you mentioned. For a short while (I ponder on things), it made some sort of sense, but in the end it didn't jibe w/what we know to be true: that ALL are alike unto [our Heavenly Father] and what we wish to receive from Him through our Savior in the Eternities is entirely up to our own obedience here on the earth. Meanwhile, ALL made the correct choice and that's why we're here.

[@joncharlotteschoen]

What really matters is what the Book of Mormon says, not what has come afterwards. I have read the book of Mormon many times, and studied it in extreme detail, and the Book of Mormon does not in any way preach racism. People who take a verse or two and try to twist it may think so, but that's not how it is.

[@neilsharp4989]

Harold B. Lee said, “The privilege of obtaining a mortal body on this earth is seemingly so priceless that those in the spirit world, even though unfaithful or not valiant, were undoubtedly permitted to take mortal bodies although under penalty of racial or physical or nationalistic limitations.” Unless you forgot Harold B Lee was a PROPHET! Nelson has recently stated, prophets ALWAYS teach truth, therefore the Mormon faith has not disavowed this statement and Nelson has confirmed its truth.

[@JustinPratt1]

Its crazy to think how old Nelson is. He has spent more of his life in the church under the priesthood ban than without it. He was an apostle at the same time as Mark E Peterson who said some horrible things about black people. I would think if he thought racism was so bad, he would have come out and denounced all prophets and apostles past remarks on the subject. But just silence, or just general "racism is bad". To say the church has disavowed this is false, they said in general terms that racism is bad, but have never come out and disavowed the words of past prophets and apostles.

[@M3rluzz0]

I doubt that President Nelson really meant a prophet is uncapable of lying; look at St. Peter denying Christ, or Abraham saying that Sarah was his sister, when she was actually his wife.

[@joncharlotteschoen]

​@@JustinPratt1I would agree with you here, that the church has not done enough to disavow the individual statements of past leaders that were clearly wrong.

[@RecoveringUGrad]

@@neilsharp4989 how about a reference for Nelson saying prophets always teach truth? You really seem to be distorting reality to do some kind of anti Mormon damage control. I find your paraphrasing to be rather deceptive.

[@RecoveringUGrad]

@@joncharlotteschoen and in the eyes critics, nothing will ever be enough. Just like Joseph said “I told them I was but a man,2 and they must not expect me to be perfect;3 if they expected perfection from me, I should expect it from them;4 but if they would bear with my infirmities5 and the infirmities of the brethren, I would likewise bear with their infirmities.” Besides, if you understood what the Bible states on the topic and also what the scientific viewpoints were during the 1800s, you may actually cut some slack. You’d be surprised out how many false claims have been accepted as truth in today’s society.

[@kevinhayward7650]

Study Alma 13:1-10 makes it very clear why some received the priesthood and other did not. This is not a black and white people issue, there have been millions born on this earth not able to have the priesthood. Time to move on and be greatfull that you live at a time now that if you are true and faithful you can receive the priesthood and partake of all those blessings.

[@kcb5336]

But it was also very clear for many years that the church did indeed believe and teach that black people were less valiant in the pre earth life. The modern church leadership is absurd in the attempt to downplay this. They should have just stuck to their guns and said yes we believe that but the curse has now been lifted. This is where the church started but the modern generation is sissy leadership afraid to be called racist turned against their own heritage.

[@danielthompson6631]

Kevin. Don't waste your time explaining the truth of The Book of Mormon and true Church Doctorine to these idiots on here. They're not interested in the truth, they're not interested in fact. They just wanna raise hell about poor poor pitiful me and their supposed be wronged by The Church brother. When they haven't been wronged. They just want to raise hell. So let them. We know this IS God's Restored Church. We know this is Jesus Christ's true Gospel. They do not care!! So bro. Keep your Testimony stringvand valiant, listen to Presudent Nelson, and don't waste your time casting pearls before swine as The Savior described it. Take care brother!

[@danielthompson6631]

I've been a Faithful, Active, and Devout Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints my ENTIRE life of 50+ years. And NEVER EVER have I heard such propaganda about The Church. The LDS Church does NOT teach that black people were not as faithful in the pre-mortal life. This teaching is speculation. And NOT DOCTORINE. Today is the first time I've ever even heard of it!!

[@woodystube1000]

So why was there a priesthood ban for a century and a half?

[@danielthompson6631]

If you are sincere friend (Woody) I can answer that question that question for you.👍 But if your just only interested in finger pointing and popular politically correct, falsehoods, lies, and arguing I won't be any more part of being involved than what I've already stated. 👎@@woodystube1000

[@kristinrichmond8185]

I’m also 50 yrs old and been an active , faithful and fully participating member my whole life and I heard this speculation 35 years ago. My only point is so say it’s been around a long time even if you haven’t heard it. Sometimes we hear things sometimes we don’t.

[@Skooter58]

I heard it and I was raised in the mission field in a small branch. The Lds prophets definitely taught that.

[@woodystube1000]

@@Skooter58 💯%! In adulthood, I’d be embarrassed to repeat what I was taught on this subject at church. I will say that I remember B of M stories where the “wicked” were cursed with dark skin, and the righteous were “white and delightsome”. What a load of racist crap!

[@aBrewster29]

While true, that is a very generous description. The disavowal of past teachings has not been delivered through mainstream channels, so many OG members have not received the message and it contextualizes the generic condemnation of racism delivered over the pulpit. Until the Church does what it takes to unteach what was previously taught, the falsehood is allowed to persist as a matter of choice. It’s reasonable to assume that increasing the reach of the denouncement of past teachings would shine a spotlight on prophetic fallibility, which is something the Church avoids generally. Randy Bott is a good example. Additionally, top leaders continue to hold that the race ban, itself, was a divine commandment (see Pres Oaks’ commentary at the Be One celebration). Jasmine, this is why we can’t take you seriously. You prove in video after video your unwillingness to call a spade a spade-I want to celebrate the good, but when you only show the positive it’s dishonest. Remember that MormonAd with the cockroach in the Ice Cream? That’s what you do, Jasmine. Your entire basis for apologetics is fraught-we are under a scriptural obligation to discern good from bad based on the fruits, but you base it on the source. Whatever comes from the Church must be good, so let’s manufacture an apologetic that turns somethjng bad into something good. I appreciate you acknowledging that these are complex issues, but that is no substitute for your unwillingness to opine on the side of criticism.

[@churtle1143]

Very well put!

[@Jaggerbush]

Do you believe that we came here from another planet?

[@joncharlotteschoen]

What on Earth are you talking about? I've been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for 15 years, and I am deeply studied and have researched much about the church, and I have never heard of what you're talking about.

[@kristinrichmond8185]

That’s an Interesting idea/ question. Do you?

[@hennore]

Love this explanation!

[@brothazinthefoyer]

We’re doing a multi part discussion of this on our podcast. We actually have Paul Reeve joining us and giving the raw and unfiltered historic context with church leaders how these assumptions came to be.

[@jaybravo2199]

This is one of the most disingenuous takes I've heard Jasmine take. It is documented very well that it was taught as doctrine.

[@jackbeckman7028]

It is also very well documented that such things have been disavowed.

[@churtle1143]

@@jackbeckman7028 and your point is? The fact is that Mormon prophets taught this as doctrine. Whether it was founded in Mormon scripture or not does not matter. They still taught it with authority acting as prophets, seers and revelators.

[@jaybravo2199]

@@jackbeckman7028 once prophetic revelation. And disavowed simply means to deny any responsibility… hardly a glowing denial or an apology.

[@jackbeckman7028]

​@@jaybravo2199​​ ​

[@AdamRichards-v2f]

I’m currently a member of the church but have been doubting for a while and considering leaving. This is one of the many reasons why. I’ve looked online and can’t find anything that claims this was doctrine. Does anyone know where it might be?

[@churtle1143]

test

[@johnrowley310]

Mormons desperate to cover their tracks...

[@danielthompson6631]

😅😅😅

[@Skooter58]

It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to justify this church’s behavior over time.

[@GeorgeDemetz]

The prophets and the ifficial declaration by them which states that the blacks were born that wsy because of their pre mortal life is true and correct and remains official church doctrine as oppised to Revees lying essay which is not! READ the first chapter of Abraham, Moses 7:8, and Mises 7:22! That is scripture and official church doctrine!!! Continued...