DO NOT DO THIS! | Battle Mistakes! | Ruling on Battles | March of the Machine | MTG

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[@TheCommandersQuarters]

Make sure you check out my Tier List Rankings on M.O.M. Commanders! kzbin.info/www/bejne/lXPQeWOmqLmlh5Y

[@LuSiDious]

Battles cant battle? Flavor fail, but I understand.

[@dzello]

I'm not sure how good Battles will be in a meta that has tons of Proliferate. If your opponent puts a Battle in play, you just Proliferate and give it counters so it never dies. Your opponent will have spent mana for the Battle, will commit resources to attacking the Battle... And you just do what your deck does to win at no loss?

[@TheCommandersQuarters]

Definitely an interesting interaction and something to consider with your meta!

[@user-oq8zu8gl4y]

It is a limited mechanic at best. You are giving your opponent free life points. Tekuthal can eat the counters though.

[@snakeman830]

Tekathul can only eat counters off creatures, artifacts, and planeswalkers. Enchantments, lands, and battles are off-diet.

[@roberthoffman9316]

For proliferate to work don't you have to have control of the permanent? I would think that because your opponent doesn't actually control the battle they wouldn't be able to proliferate the defense points on it.

[@Someone-lg6di]

Etb effects run the battle for them elesh from phrexia can double etb on battles

[@wingshad0w00982]

The bolas-with-metal-chair bolas interaction is mycosynth lattice-bludgeon brawl. Lattice makes everything artifacts, brawl makes non-creature artifacts equipments. Use creature bolas (the old elder dragon or new one) and planeswalker bolas of your choosing, equip and beat face.

[@pitpiccione1191]

Amazing

[@harutakami1313]

Fun Fact: Animated Battles can still Fight with things like Prey Upon, and since they're still Battles they will lose their counters.

[@CantonMasterDrummer]

5:23 still pretty pissed that March of the Machines was not reprinted into this set. I love playing this card in modern, and thought I’d totally see it for standard.

[@marcoottina654]

Also, not enough artifacts there. I don't pretend amounts like Mirrodin, but at least __some__ artifacts

[@archellothewolf2083]

The thing I find interesting is that the permenant type is Battle - Siege. Personally I'd like the Battle card type to stick around and see what sub-types could come out of it. Battle - Duel could be neat, or Battle - Ambush maybe? Personally I hope the card type sticks around. It's an interesting mechanic IMO.

[@jamesgasik3424]

Battles will be hilarious on Arena when these edge cases come up.

[@drewlusc9773]

Yeah, when battles were first revealed, I thought to myself “this would be broken in Korvold” due to him being able to sacrifice permanents when he etbs or attacks. I was dead wrong on that thanks to my group.

[@Shoyro]

I have a question that can be applied for other formats besides Commander: if a Battle becomes a 2/2 creature with Defense Counters, then someone uses Lightning Bolt, will the Battle be able to transform or not due to the fact there's still Defense Counters?

[@LadyTsunade777]

Lethal damage to a Battle turned into a creature causes it to die due to state-based actions before it triggers to exile itself and cast the back.

[@fallendeus]

No, the transform is a triggered effect that happens when the battle has the last defense counter removed from it. 310.11b Sieges have the intrinsic ability “When the last defense counter is removed from this permanent, exile it, then you may cast it transformed without paying its mana cost.” Meaning just destroying it does nothing.

[@MartinLindwyrm]

Awesome quick course - wanna look further into it for sure now. Learning what I’m already having a feel for.

[@benlapoint7697]

They should have had Battles exist in their own zone and ruled to be treated not as a permanent but more like a player.

[@chezpizza3869]

Kinda wished the rule was the player that defeats the battle that player gets to casts it. The way it reads now sounds like only the owner can ever gain the benefit no matter who defeats it.

[@SS4Inferno]

Ok. But what if I turn it into a creature right before someone casts Blasphemous Act? Battle takes 13 damage

[@LadyTsunade777]

Lethal damage to a Battle turned into a creature causes it to die due to state-based actions before it triggers to exile itself and cast the back.

[@sweetbabyrayso5262]

@@LadyTsunade777makes no sense. What you said would mean that getting the battle a zero counters wouldn’t turn it into a monster.

[@LadyTsunade777]

@@sweetbabyrayso5262 Yes, exactly. If you animate a battle (meaning you find a way to make the front side of the battle into a creature on the battlefield) and then deal lethal damage to it (meaning you deal as mush or more damage to it than it has toughness), then the battle will die as a state-based action even if you also reduced it to 0 defense counters, and it will go to the graveyard and will not exile itself to cast the back side. Battles have an inherent triggered ability "When the last defense counter is removed, exile this, then cast it transformed." That ability will trigger if the front is a creature and is dealt enough damage to remove the remaining defense counters, but if that damage also happens to be lethal damage to it, it will trigger the inherent ability, but it will die due to lethal damage when checking state-based actions (which happens before and after every item in the stack), so it will no longer be on the battlefield and the trigger ability will fizzle. Assuming you've got a yu-gi-oh mindset since you used "monster", let me clarify the main difference between MtG's stack and Yu-Gi-Oh's chain: in yu-gi-oh as a chain resolves nothing else can be added to it and the field state doesn't change much (ex. resolving cards stay on the field until the whole chain ends), but in MtG the stack is dynamic and players can add things to it at any time, even if it partially resolves they can then add more, and said state-based actions (such as creatures dying, the Legend rule, and more) are checked and applied before and after each item in the stack resolves.

[@sweetbabyrayso5262]

@@LadyTsunade777 do we have any confirmation on how they death effect works? Cause if it works how you are saying then battle cards would be the worst cards in the game cause if you just dealt more dmg than the counters on the card then card would be destroyed. Not to mention proliferate making it almost impossible to even turn the battle into the creature. And btw I don’t play yugioh

[@LadyTsunade777]

@@sweetbabyrayso5262 Dealing damage to a battle that is NOT a creature removes the counters normally and makes it exile itself to cast the back when it hits 0 counters as normal. OP here was talking about animating a battle (turning it into a creature) and then casting Blasphemous Act. I was explaining how damage to an _animated_ battle works.

[@seventhirteen3980]

So now let's turn it around to the opponents hands. If you are given a battle and the battle is being attack, can you essentially fog it by turning it into a creature? Since its no longer a battle, it can't be attacked and the creatures lose target, right? And what does that mean for attack triggers and

[@abbiemcdaniels3122]

Totally going to try this on Sparky as soon as MOM drops in arena just to watch the interaction

[@TheArcSet]

Yeah, I was looking for interactions, including animation & Solemnity, but both of those are no goes. the battle rules supersede creature blocking, assumedly even if you give it power/toughness and Solemnity instant buries it. You could animate and move/remove the counters ... but that's more steps than burning, unless you're already turning to artifacts and animating.

[@pketr5]

Does solemnity cause the battle to immediately be defeated? Edit: Solemnity never mentioned battles so it's not affected unless it enters as one of the card types it mentioned (mycosynth lattice or enchanted evening). In that case, does it enter and then gets immediately defeated?

[@RacketifyHeart]

So what if I turn it into a creature and then play another card that allow it to attack like you do with defender.

[@autobotjazz1972]

Makes sense and prevents alot of shenanigans players might attempt.

[@thekwjiboo]

What's the running total of keywords/mechanics in MTG now?

[@t-28superheavytank64]

Yes

[@laurelkeeper]

Technically, Battle isn't a keyword.

[@thekwjiboo]

@Gideon Ransom I should have said keywords/mechanics. You're correct, I just failed to ask the question right. I edited it for correctness. Edit - now that I think of it, battle is a card type so it's neither a mechanic or a keyword....fail

[@maskedfallen1331]

119 if you want to know @Craig Johnson

[@thekwjiboo]

@@maskedfallen1331 wow, that's more than I would have guessed. Assuming you're being serious.

[@markpeterson5845]

How would a battle react if you had vorinclex (doubles your counters) and you cast a battle. Do your battles have double the life counters? And opponents actually benefit from vorinclex?

[@9thebigcool]

Yes. Counters enter the same way as loyalty counters unless wizards has said otherwise. In this case whoever controls vorinclex is at a disadvantage with battles.

[@markpeterson5845]

@@9thebigcool yikes that’s what I thought. I guess the benefit is still that you should have plenty of counters on your guys to take out your doubled life counter battles

[@shikarymtg]

what a messy design

[@andreibaciu7518]

they should make a spell with something like "target permanent becomes a flip creature with top half something and bottom half something else" for maximum tomfoolery

[@xanowrath6693]

But what if I muttate on to the battle then give it banding and band it to something else?

[@trianglechuck4145]

You should make a deck tech on the new etali

[@charlieblocher7456]

The ruling makes sense.

[@tymenvanessen3119]

Question: if i have a Manifested Battle, and then flip it up with a Ixildor, Reality Sculptor. i would have a Battle - Siege with no player assigned to defend it. this would also be true if the opponent assigned to defend it loses or is otherwise removed of the game. can you then just attack it without anyone able to block?

[@X20Adam]

This is most likely correct. Not sure if there are rules for re-choosing the defending player but it doesn't seem like a defending player is necessary.

[@DeadlyLight101]

​@@X20Adam There is a rule for re-designation at 310.10, which means that flipping it back will cause the player to pick a new protector, or toss it due to state-based actions if a player somehow can't be designated.

[@DeadlyLight101]

Basically, any time a battle doesn't have a Protector (and it's not being attacked), the owner has to immediately pick someone else. Battles don't simply choose as an etb, it seems.

[@tymenvanessen3119]

@@DeadlyLight101 ah that is cool. next question, with the changes to transforming for tokens, if i would make a token of a battle with Lithoform engine, would i also be able to cast the 'backside' of that token battle? since we can now transform our daybound werewolf tokens for example. what about Jace, Vryn's Prodigy or other flipwalkers, they exile and return transformed now, since the token only ceases to exist when state based actions are checked correct?

[@DeadlyLight101]

@@tymenvanessen3119 Well the Battles exile themselves, so token battles cannot be transformed via their own ability. They'll just exile themselves and poof. I believe the specific reason day/nightbound tokens can transform is because they specifically don't change zones to do so, but I may be wrong.

[@rastiabertoy8579]

Fight spells would still work though right?

[@Makuta87]

I'm wondering: what happend, if I use a vampire hexmage to remove all counters from a battle? does it count as "defeated" ?

[@isaiahwelch8066]

As far as I can tell, yes, because you're not simply sacrificing it or some other graveyard shenanigans to put it into the graveyard. The reason why is that removing the Defense counters is the only way to trigger the transformation ability, which merely putting a Battle into a graveyard won't trigger the transformation triggered ability. At least, that's how I'm seeing it.

[@Makuta87]

@@isaiahwelch8066 thanks :)

[@bounceday]

.... "and now I attack with my battle to target my battle" JUDGE!

[@TheAverageGuyTAG]

Judge Ruling: "Attacking doesn't target. Rules violation. Game loss. Match loss. Disqualified. Permanently banned from sanctioned play. Burn your cards. Turn over your Star Chips. You're going to the Shadow Realm. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200."

[@ssammy74]

So with battles when I choose someone to defend it do they get the effect of the battle as is and when it changes form or does the effects effect me and my creatures and I basically give the card to an opponent just to defend it?

[@dailyntimm4438]

If I sacrifice a battle to something like korvold, dose it flip?

[@TimboFromLimbo]

Since they are essentially 2 card types at once when in the graveyard, Battles help Lurgoyf and delirium triggers I assume. Though you'd have to work to put them in the graveyard. I guess it really wouldn't be worth the hassle. Also when you play a card that lets you search for a creature and the battle is a creature on its back side can you fetch the battle out of your deck or not? Also also, wondering why they don't just say, "front facing battles can't change card types via the effects of other cards." Or "when battle side is facing up the card type cannot be changed."

[@fallendeus]

They are not counted as 2 types in the graveyard. In the graveyard they are only counted as the front face of the card, same as every other double faced card.

[@TimboFromLimbo]

@@fallendeus I see, same goes for in the deck too then I assume... My second question.

[@fallendeus]

@@TimboFromLimbo yup. The back side is ignored in the deck as well.

[@gilbertlloyd8691]

I would assume it's rules apply the same as that of planeswalkers whe. They become creatures. So if it attacks it doesn't lose counters but dies as a creature. On top of that, creatures can't be targeted by attacks and that probably would take precedent over it being a battle similar to when a planes walker is a creature.

[@fallendeus]

If a battle becomes a creature and still is counted as a battle, it cannot participate in combat at all. If it loses the battle type, then the ability that causes defense counters to be removed is gone anyways so they wouldn't be removed by damage since that isn't an intrinsic property of the defense counters.

[@crimsonwolf3487]

How do they function with morph or manifest and are flipped over?

[@fallendeus]

They literally don't. The battle only is considered defeated when the last counter is removed from the battle. And it's only on etb that they get the defense counters.

[@jj-sc1kq]

Okay, you mentioned something in passing about equiping other creatures as equipment. I haven't heard of this one before and it sounds neat. I assume it is using reconfigure. But I can't find any more information than that at the moment. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

[@skyhorizon6860]

As a gruul player, can I fight the battle?

[@dustinwrightson7447]

Force battle to fight something if made it a creature be helpful but also March of machines sacrifice target artifact or creature so if make it artifact could still sacrifice to trigger it maybe

[@snakeman830]

Lethal damage as a creature puts it in the graveyard before the battle trigger to exile and transform can happen, so be careful with what you fight. If a battle goes to the graveyard for any reason, it doesn't flip.

[@fallendeus]

310.11b Sieges have the intrinsic ability “When the last defense counter is removed from this permanent, exile it, then you may cast it transformed without paying its mana cost.”

[@Red_Mag3]

Using Battles and Blade of Shared Souls, could you cast the backside of cards that transform?

[@Lock2002ful]

Battles are shit. The rules, the way they work. Completely unusable. They are kind of an cool idea but the way the are designed is garbage. Sagas really are sublime and I’m happy that those are here to stay. It’s sad how companions went away. It was a cool mechanic, that WotC obviously copied from Hearthstone, but players complained too much about them instead of finding answers. Same with Uro and Oko. Never had an issue with those cards but well, we’ll see how fun grindy sets and cards are vs cards that are snappy and fun and don’t take an hour per match.

[@Nightken91]

Wouldn't Aethersnap be more popular for these battle cards to get them all to just transform them?

[@pokeliciousnchill2932]

Should just be a rule where battles are unable to become creatures or be able to lose the Battle typing. What if you made a Battle into a creature and had it fight another creature? Could it take damage that way or would it just get destroyed?

[@justinhelsper3072]

I don't know if this has come up yet, but what would happen if you went through the process of making it a creature, and then played imprisoned in the moon, and copied it with thespian stage?

[@shikarymtg]

Edited my comment after checking. I think according this rule: "If a battle’s defense is 0 and it isn’t the source of an ability which has triggered but not yet left the stack, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard. (This is a state-based action.)" and this rule "Sieges have the intrinsic ability “When the last defense counter is removed from this permanent, exile it, then you may cast it transformed without paying its mana cost.”" The copy would simply go to the graveyard.

[@chadgrimwell8380]

What happen when you use Untap target permanent to battles

[@IslarfPokemon]

What happens if a battle turns into a creature then is flipped upside down.

[@TheIhplodur]

So what does happen if I turn my battles into lands?

[@zeropoint2594]

So if I turn a battle in an artifact and use an effect like the second one on Drafna that copies an artifact I could create more and more of them ? They would probably not be transformed when they die since they are token but you coul use most of the etb´s again and again right ?

[@TheAverageGuyTAG]

Tokens can now actually transform thanks to a rules update for Incubators, but token copies of battles are screwed regardless because battles exile themselves first, so the moment the token copy runs out of counters, it exiles itself and ceases to exist.

[@zeropoint2594]

@@TheAverageGuyTAG that's what I thought but at least you get the etb

[@norrock1]

Not being able to attack themselves makes perfect sense. Not being able to attack or block period makes absolutely no sense. They could have easily come up with a rule that basically says 'can't attack itself and a battle can oy lose defense counters through combat when specifically declared as an attack target.' That way a manned up battle can't attack and lose defense counters simply by being blocked

[@shikarymtg]

I find it funny that they thought animating a battle (a super niche occurrence) would be a flavor fail, but they are ok with Vorinclex and doubling seasons making your own battles harder to win (which can realisticall;y happen)... why didn't they just say "a battle enters the battlefield under the control of target opponent. It cannot be sacrificed" then, yes, an opponent could animate them and attack, which would feel like "you are under siege and decide to leave the protection of your fortifications and attack the enemy". It would have been perfect. But no, they enter under your control, but opponent defends them and you cannot animate them and vorinclex messes you up.. very clean design!

[@marvinbuck5984]

What if you turn it into a creature somehow, then enchant it with Darksteel Mutation (making it no longer a Battle), then get lethal damage on it (but it's indestructible), and then before end of turn destroy the Darksteel Mutation?

[@LadyTsunade777]

Lethal damage to a Battle turned into a creature causes it to die due to state-based actions before it triggers to exile itself and cast the back. Also, damage to a creature-battle will still remove that many defense counters as well, just like damage to creature-walkers does. (and thus the reason most walkers that animate themselves either stop being walkers (Sarkhan / Luxior) or prevent damage dealt to them (Gideon))

[@snakeman830]

If it's no longer a battle, it also won't lose defense counters to damage.

[@marvinbuck5984]

@@LadyTsunade777 But it wouldn't die with Darksteel Mutation, as it would be indestructible. Or are you saying when Darksteel Mutation is destroyed, it would die to the lethal damage on it before it could become a Battle again?

[@marvinbuck5984]

@@snakeman830 So, Defense counters are ONLY removed when damage happens, but not after it becomes a battle again and still has damage on it from when it was dealt damage as a creature?

[@fallendeus]

@@marvinbuck5984 Defense counters are only removed IF THE CARD IS A BATTLE. It is not an intrinsic property of the counters. That is a property of the battle.

[@cheynewellington]

What happens when you mutate on top of an artifact creature battle?

[@TheAverageGuyTAG]

You have a creature with all the rules text of everything below it. It is not a battle (because the topmost mutate creature is not a battle), so any rules regarding removing defense counters from damage are meaningless because that is intrinsically tied to the battle card type (similar to how mutating on top of a planeswalker means damage no longer removes loyalty counters).

[@jbeeneq]

Anyone know what happens if this is Manifested? Is it Automatically defeated since it didnt enter with defense counters?

[@fallendeus]

No, the triggered ability only happens when the last defense counter is removed from the battle. Not when it has 0 counters. 310.11b Sieges have the intrinsic ability “When the last defense counter is removed from this permanent, exile it, then you may cast it transformed without paying its mana cost.”

[@jbeeneq]

@@fallendeus This isn't super clear, honestly. Also, when it's manifested and turned face up, who is defending it? Is it pointless with 0 counters?

[@fallendeus]

@@jbeeneq when its turn faced up you assign a defender. But since it isnt entering the battlefield, as it was already gave down on the battlefield: 1 the etb effect on the front side doesnt trigger. 2 it didnt recieve any defense counters. And since it doesn't have any defense counters to lose it will never trigger its defeat effect. So yes a battle with 0 defense counters is completely pointless.

[@fallendeus]

@@jbeeneq also what i originally said was pretty damn clear. Sieges are only defeated and trigger when the last counter is removed. Not sure what isn't clear about that.

[@maxpoisner7224]

Would forced transformation work if it was a creature? Or does transforming not apply?

[@LadyTsunade777]

It would, but only for battles with permanent cards on the backs. Also, there's not a lot of forced transformation effects anyway. Moonmist is really the only way, and that'd require animating a battle and making it have the Human type. Incubator transformers would further require creating token copies of the battle, in addition to the animating and creature type changing.

[@TheAceOfFire]

Are Changelings also Battles? Does that mean that changelings are no longer allowed to attack!?

[@Topher714]

Changelings are all _creature_ types, not all _card_ types. Just like changelings aren't lands that you can tap for mana, they also aren't battles.

[@fallendeus]

wtf? Why would changelings be battles?

[@CapnSnackbeard]

There is an invisible subtext of every battle that you do attack that basically says "give your opponent X+ life," where X+ is the Battle's life, plus overkill damage. Probably not bad for Commander, but I wonder about this season's draft.

[@tcsmagicbox]

Let's just call the new battle cards for what they are. #pinatacards

[@IBeScrappyDoo2]

Will deathtouch destroy a battle even though it has more counters on it than the creature's power?

[@fallendeus]

If a battle is destroyed... nothing happens. It goes to the graveyard. Battles only trigger if when the last defense counter is removed from the battle, not when destroyed. 310.11b Sieges have the intrinsic ability “When the last defense counter is removed from this permanent, exile it, then you may cast it transformed without paying its mana cost.”

[@Treps1]

I hate permanents on the battlefield that aren't creatures enchantments or artifacts. Like how do you allow just jank to be on the field.

[@fallendeus]

Lands?

[@endeavor1299]

...wasn't it better to make them just unable to become creatures?

[@micheal5973]

I just dont get the themeing of the siege cards. If should be something like the player defending it gets a bonus for each turn its on the field. Giving them a reason for actually being a defender and wanting the battle to stick around. And then why the caster gets the benefit no matter who defeats it. It could have been something like a suped up monarch where whover gets besieged has an archenemy target put on them instead of just a random thing thrown into certain decks just cause you dont need the thing to even flip. Making it into an actual siege where everyone wants that card.

[@DS-tv2fi]

I didn’t think of that. Hope WotC does something like that in the future.

[@fallendeus]

Their reward for defending it is not letting them get the back side of the card which is where a lot of the value is.

[@pjt1090]

Why on Earth would anyone think battles could attack before they're creatures?

[@purpleslushie]

Driving my battle to smack the opponents face.

[@kats7930]

TBH Battles just appear to be wizards attempts at copying Pokémon Stadium effects from what I can tell. But the assigning it to another player as is just seems already bizarre. This feels more like a gimmick, unlike sagas.

[@ethanchapman3799]

Turn it into a creature, mutate a card over it, attack

[@fallendeus]

If you mutate OVER it, it is no longer a battle so not sure what you are trying to accomplish.

[@MutantNetwork]

Interesting fr

[@patrickoverstreet2372]

The only home these will have is in edh, for constructed formats they are a massive bait for wasting valuable damage on. Planeswalkers already draw your damage away but your opponents are the ones forcing or baiting you in that case but battles are you spending mana to then throw your damage at instead of your opponent to bring them to 0.

[@laurelkeeper]

Several of them seem good enough for Standard. I think you're making some very false sweeping assumptions, given that several of them have ETB effects that are already fairly costed for their MV.

[@Ellie-Angela]

The big case someone pointed out to me is Invasion of Ikoria with Vampire Hexmage, which can give you a 8/8 with basically super-trample for 4 mana in modern. In fact, in general, X cost sorcery-speed spells that get a creature of MV X or less on the battlefield are pretty good, so there's that. Other than that, some are decent? Invasion of Fiora is a nice wipe for the current standard for example.

[@LadyTsunade777]

People keep saying this, but the best counterpoint are the battles that have a good rate front already. Invasion of Gobakhan letting you see your opponent's hand and take a card from it for just 1W is already pretty good, so the back just becomes an optional bonus you never really have to work towards.

[@laurelkeeper]

@@LadyTsunade777 yep And there are several like that Like the legend/nonlegend wrath I think is pretty decent up front and the back is game ending pressure

[@davemcduringo4377]

I came here hoping for answers to questions people are actually asking about battles, not the dumbest niche case use of type changing shenanigans.

[@Szszszszszszszszsz]

What about mutating over or under a battle when it's a creature and then it stops being a creature and is a regular battle again?

[@snakeman830]

Mutating over would remove the battle type permanently, so defense counters no longer get removed due to damage, nor will it exile itself to cast transformed if you remove the counters another way. If you mutate under, nothing really changes on the battle side, but when it exiles, you can't cast the mutate creature transformed because it doesn't have a second face, so it remains in exile.

[@tonypudlo1277]

What would happen if you turn you battle into a creature then sac it? Would you get to flip it then?

[@FVLLEN_GXD]

No because battles have to be destroyed with damage to transform, if it gets removed in another way it just gets removed

[@LadyTsunade777]

You only get the back half of a battle if it exiled itself with its own hidden triggered ability "When the last defense counter is removed, exile this then cast it transformed." Destroying/sacrificing one any other way just puts it to the grave. Also, lethal damage to a Battle turned into a creature causes it to die due to state-based actions before it triggers to exile itself and cast the back.

[@felizpanda]

@@FVLLEN_GXD To be clear, they have to have to the last defense counter removed, not necessarily with damage. Effects like Render Inert can flip it.

[@fallendeus]

No... 310.11b Sieges have the intrinsic ability “When the last defense counter is removed from this permanent, exile it, then you may cast it transformed without paying its mana cost.” If they are sac'd... congrats you just sent it to the graveyard. If they are DESTROYED, then they go to the graveyard.

[@cygnusx-1862]

Proliferating your opponents battles seems very funny to me.

[@mega2009man]

Anyone who tried this I'd laugh 😂

[@jjcc8379]

Just play battles with Solemnity in Play. Easy

[@CrabTribe]

That doesn’t affect Battles or Planeswalkers. But you can first play Enchanted Evening. Then yeah Battles would enter the battlefield and immediately be defeated.

[@randomact2007]

Battles are defeated "when the last defense counter is removed." Solemnity prevents counters from being placed at all, so the last one can never be removed. The battle would just stay in play with no counters forever.

[@victormiller1420]

My issue with these cards is no incentive for anyone other then the owner of the battle to attack it. Why not have something that gives a benefit for players to attack it. Or something to force them to attack it.

[@DS-tv2fi]

I imagine there will be commander specific battles in the future that give bonuses to whoever damages them or something.

[@victormiller1420]

@@DS-tv2fi I'd imagine so otherwise it's just a waste of an interesting mechanic

[@kevinberg1813]

did you just spend 12min saying something that could have been said in less than 1 minute?

[@infinitedm5396]

"this thing gives your opponents life" Says people who never encountered a Planeswalker, Also people who never countered Crew. Also people who never encountered any effect that lets you tap a creature to enable a second effect. And people who never saw value from triggers for attacking. But hey yeah. It's "extra life" lol.😅

[@seamusdaniels1185]

Second

[@Mr_Woof_Panini]

Not gonna lie. I'm not impressed with this new card type.

[@thomasgryboski8978]

so battle is literally the only permanent type that cannot attack. why does wotc hate fun 😂

[@Scribbleguy976]

Jesus. This guy sure knows how to say the exact same thing over and over again. Wish KZbin would follow my recommendation and not recommend any more of his MTG content.

[@Silver_light77]

Its as though introducing another *wacky minigame* mechanic to the game from the ground up comes with a lot of bullsh*t rulings made up on the spot would cause wotc to need to cover their asses after mooning us for so long