Do Reboots, Retcons & Resurrections in Comics do More Harm Than Good?

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[@spiralstorm616]

My simple answer. Reboots and retcons do more harm than good. Resurrections are nice but just quit killing everyone all the time so resurrections are not needed

[@TheComicsPals]

Yeah, widespread wanton use of resurrections has definitely diminished the impact of a death OR return at this point.

[@juggergrimm]

Marvels reboot is softer. They say it's 6 months later, reset to basics and we dont talk about the last few arcs

[@TheComicsPals]

Good point!

[@ReaperXC]

One More Day i see is a reboot of Spider-Man.

[@YonkoShaman]

Bro I never thought "reboot, resurrection, retcon, one has to go from the big two forever" would be the hardest question I've ever faced in real time... If we say no reboots then in DC Superman and Batman are the same guys they were in the 30s Without retcons Hal is still a... Yk? Without resurrections the EPIC return of Hal Jordan in Geoff Johns wouldn't exist. Way too hard to answer.

[@superluigiac]

Geoff Johns idea on Doomsday Clock for reboots (leaving aside the story) was good: The "Present Earth" is preserved when a reboot happens, and a new Earth joins the multiverse. Those stories and characters still exists, but we're not focusing on those now. They are allowed to be happy...

[@TheComicsPals]

That's cleanish. I think with DC it can become too much when they start trying to integrate those "new" universes into the fold in a larger way.

[@superluigiac]

@@TheComicsPals indeed. In general, leaving aside DC and Marvel, reboots are good once you told the story and want to allow someone else to give it a shot, like the Transformers and TMNT reboots after a long and successful run.

[@TheComicsPals]

@@superluigiac That's a great point. I would probably never have jumped onto Transformers and GI Joe if it wasn't a 100% clean start.

[@spiralstorm616]

There was 1 perfect reboot. Post crisis. Then they messed up with Crisis stories and Flashpoint

[@laverdadescatolica5]

Yes. Barry Allen should have NEVER returned. Elektra should remained DEAD. Hal Jordan should remained RETIRED. Jean Grey should have remained DEAD. What a waste. A new generation should continued to love…. Wally west … John Stewart … etc

[@laverdadescatolica5]

Yes. Barry Allen should have NEVER returned. Elektra should remained DEAD. Hal Jordan should remained RETIRED. Jean Grey should have remained DEAD. What a waste. A new generation should continued to love…. Wally west … John Stewart … etc

[@edwinsolis5710]

I disagree. Post-Crisis had its own massive problems-Marv Wolfman and George Perez kept their Green Lantern and Teen Titans history but Superman and Wonder Woman had to start from scratch. There were also problems with Legion of Superheroes, Powergirl and Supergirl being erased from Superman’s history. Which lead to massive confusion and timeline retcons down the line to set it right, a key moment being Zero Hour and Infinite Crisis.

[@ReaperXC]

Geoff Johns is the king of retcons and they almost always work.

[@TheComicsPals]

What do you think makes him so successful at it?

[@alltheworldsastage4785]

​@@TheComicsPals He's a great writer.

[@TheComicsPals]

@@alltheworldsastage4785 That is definitely true. And a frequent guest on this channel!

[@alltheworldsastage4785]

@@TheComicsPals 🙏🏾🔥

[@ChillMonger]

If the retroactive continuity has contradicted a plot point then I disapprove. When terrigen mist was was inhaled by Quicksilver after House of M and didn't die it set a precedent. Inhumans vs X-Men was built on a ret-con.

[@TheComicsPals]

Unfortunately most of the time that's what a retcon will do.

[@superluigiac]

The Phoenix retcon answers your question, "how did fans feel about her death?" Well, a fan called Chris Claremont said "how about she wasn't Jean, just Phoenix using her form/a copy of her and Jean is in stasis somewhere else".

[@auradjinns]

This was Kurt Busiek’s idea, not Chris Claremont’s.

[@GitShiddy]

For me a reboot has a definitive shift in status quo going forward, usually as a result of a storyline/event but can come out of nowhere. It does not necessitate the absolute rejection of history but often rejects aspects of history. A reboot can/does have aspects of retcon(s) in them and so are slow to reveal that yes, that was a reboot. A reboot can be of an individual, whole universe or segment of a universe. Examples Crisis, New52, Secret Wars, The New Ultimate Universe all line wide. Heroes Return, HOX/POX, Final Crisis reboot segments of a universe (Avengers, X-Men & New Gods respectively). One More Day, The Killing Joke, Phoenix Saga all reboot an individual character (Peter Parker, Barbara Gordon & Jean Grey) and while they are in continuity they change something fundamental about the character and the fanbase of the character henceforth. Reboot, retcon & resurrection are all double-edged swords when they work they really work, when they don't they really don't. Most however are sort of of middling success. Which creates an ouroboros of the triple Rs of constant middling Rs trying to make a great impact. I think they're all valid storytelling tools but...they can be utilized with a bit less zeal.

[@TheComicsPals]

Agreed overall. The Big Two are too quick to dive into their toolbox to pull out one of these, IMO. They work better the less often they're done and the more thoughtfully they're executed.

[@PromiscuousTimeTraveler]

Like I said before, these videos are totally worth the paid membership!

[@TheComicsPals]

Thank you PTT!

[@michaelneddeau5714]

I think all are important but resurrections have affected me more, when they brought back og ultimate peter i felt it made his death less meaningful.

[@TheComicsPals]

Yeah agreed on that one for sure.

[@joeparrigen4982]

Hal Jordan was shot by Green Arrow during the Zero Hour event. But he didn't die. He died bringing back the sun.

[@TheComicsPals]

Thank you for adding that clarification Joe!

[@superluigiac]

And yeah, OMD is a soft reboot: there's things that were erased from history, like Harry's death.

[@TheComicsPals]

Yeah definitely.

[@roboters100]

One of the worst retcons is making Bruce and Dicks relationship seem way more abrasive than what actually went down on why Batman and Robin ended up splintering off. They treat it after the fact that it was a big blow up between the two. (Since the reality was since Dick was blocked in the Bat Line creators started to do subtle character jabs throughout) When really as taken at face value Joker Shoots Dick this caused Bruce to step back and, forbid Dick from going out on patrol and, that he needed to focus on his studies and work on his team leadership with the Titans. Nightwing Year One one of the most egregious and manifesting in comics ways absolutely flies in the face of that and makes it a bitter feud and spat. Bruce and Dick should be way more partnered in team ups its something that still irks me because of the direction it set. Great Discussion all around I will however take Retcons over Reboots need to go for sure I don't care about death and, bringing them back as long as its worth the time effort and story to do it for. Though Creators should be aware every character is someone's fav and all it takes is one comic to bring them into the limelight of longevity.

[@TheComicsPals]

I've never fully understood why their relationship in the books is so contentious myself.

[@jonnjones8263]

They can be good depending on how it's done. It's all about context. Like for example retconning Peter & Mary Jane was stupid but I'd actually argue that getting rid of the marriage of Superman & Lois would be a good thing. Lois hinders Clark's stories whereas Mary Jane enhanced Peter's.

[@TheComicsPals]

What do you think is the difference between those couples that makes what you say here true?

[@jonnjones8263]

​@@TheComicsPals This is gonna be a bit controversial...but it's power levels. Superman's power level changes the dynamic. Because it means the kind of things that are a threat to Peter and the kind of things that would threaten Clark are drastically different. As a result the love interests would be facing different levels of threats. A decently skilled martial artist could pose a threat to spidey and maybe you could argue MJ could get away from someone like that. But Clark on the other hand fights Gods and Aliens. There is no conceivable way to write Lois into such a storyline without coming up with absolute contrived bullshit for her to survive. Which is why you see nowadays she's kept out of the conflict entirely. Superman fans dont wanna admit this but Lois is basically irrelevant after they're married. The situation gets worse when you have all these super people being added to the family. I means Lois has less of a role and less of a reason for writers to incorporate her into a story. Thus she has no reason to be here anymore. She's kept around because nostalgia fans wont let go of what they grew up with. No one wants to acknowledge the reality that she doesn't matter.

[@jonnjones8263]

@@TheComicsPals In addition to what I said earlier Lois is so bland and generic that she has no unique philosophy to impart onto her kids or any of the Supers. She has no deep wisdom or morals to teach her son or any life experiences that could be used to guide any of them. They're living lives she couldn't possibly imagine or even relate to. They have nothing to learn from her. So in addition to being useless physically she's useless philosophically as well. Lois Lane as a character no longer has anything to offer. This impacts the kids because they get everything from Clark and not her. So we're basically just dealing with Clark clones. Instead of unique characters because they can't get anything unique from Lois.

[@comicsjoe0409]

Maybe y'all can help me with some Comic retcon questions, how would you describe the relationship during the cold war between Natasha and Bucky? The age thing doesn't add up unless Natasha she was de-aged. And what would y'all say about the relationship between Magento and Wanda and quicksilver? Thanks Pals 😁

[@TheComicsPals]

It's hard to deal with things like character's ages. At SOME POINT in comic book history you could make sense of Natasha being around and active during the Cold War. Obviously at this point it doesn't make sense. That said, Natasha has probably taken some kind of life-extending medication or something. As for Magneto and the kids, that's all very frustrating and exclusively due to the films. Scarlet With and Quicksilver needed to not be mutants in the movies so they're not, and the comics side changed to reflect that because they wanted those characters on the board.

[@comicsjoe0409]

@@TheComicsPals thanks 🙏 I'm currently reading ED Brubaker Winter Soldier series and the relationship with Natasha is amazing but I had a few questions. Thanks for taking time to answer my question!

[@TheComicsPals]

@@comicsjoe0409 You know we have your back Joe!

[@user-is6cs2nu5s]

Harm not everyone returns if last run was bad what make the remake any better.

[@dreigros]

This is a really good discussion. Im bored of grown up dudes whining about everything going woke and youtube algorithm pushing these trash content into my throat. It is surprising to see some intelligent content about comics.

[@TheComicsPals]

Hey thanks a lot, appreciate you giving us a shot! Glad you enjoyed our conversation here. If this was for you, we have A LOT more where this came from. Check out the live tab to see our weekly shows. I hope you'll make this one of your home channels!

[@bakublade1]

I think my position on reboots is unpopular. I am all in favor of Marvel and DC rebooting their whole universes after a while(for example 20 years). Like in Marvel's case, I don't really buy that all the stories could have happened in the same universe/timeline. Especially since they don't really let their characters age that much. I think they should have a clear break/hard reboot, start to take continuity more seriously, and let their characters age and finish their stories. I just don't understand how people can plausibly be attached to one version of a character when all the stories don't make sense together over the many years.

[@TheComicsPals]

How do you regulate this though? If it’s a hard reboot every 20 years, do you just end something really hot that’s working just for the sake of a reboot? It seems like that gives readers a great reason to jump off board. I honestly think the lack of reboots at Marvel is part of why they’ve consistently outsold DC. They’re just easier to follow.

[@bakublade1]

@@TheComicsPals My thought is that it wouldn't be that rigid. They could do a hard stop and reset with something like Secret Wars 2015(or a Crisis) but they could also start up a new Ultimate Universe/Earth 2 type of thing that grows to be a larger and larger portion of the publishing line. The desire to start a new universe would as a result from popular characters having grown older or died in the current version of the universe because they took continuity more seriously and let their characters age and people want to tell new stories that would not fit in with what has already been established. Yes, it would give people a really good opportunity to jump off but I don't see that as a bad thing. I think it already happens to a lesser degree with big runs like the Krakoan Era or Immortal Hulk. It might be less profitable but I think it could to better/more cohesive stories. I don't think they are easier to follow. I haven't tried myself but I imagine if you want to read all of Amazing Spider-Man from the 60s to now it would feel cohesive or like it's all about one character at all. Similarly, DC has tried to reboot but doesn't do it completely so it is confusing what is canon and how it fits together now.

[@spiralstorm616]

How would you explain Harry Osborn being alive after OMD if it's a continuing story. How is he alive again? Since he died back in the 90s

[@TheComicsPals]

Totally got me on that one!

[@spiralstorm616]

@@TheComicsPals Yeah its what makes the whole thing confusing

[@roboters100]

I would say the Harry reason is simple at the time they wanted to put him back on the board since certain people really wanted Gwen back as well. So everything happened in Spider History but because the rebooted One More Day aspects of Status quo which was to give Peter his Secret Identity back Remove Marriage was done through Mephisto so you have all these small ripples so the stories they happened but Peter and MJ were just dating instead of Married this created the excuse to bring him back alive and well till Spencer and a few others retconned that and Harry body and Soul belong to the realm of the damned all along. Which going into all of that is really getting into the weeds.

[@spiralstorm616]

Reading back on stuff. Its not the real Harry Osborn. It was the Clone Harold Osborn

[@jonnjones8263]

Another problem with Jon Kent. He was forced into existence with retcons. Nothing about his character makes sense. Now it's gotten so bad that he not only actively hurts continuity with his existence but he's also such a terrible character that no one knows what to do with him anymore. He's gotten hit with so many retcons that he's just dead weight. What would be best is to simply retcon him out of existence.

[@TheComicsPals]

I like Jon but it feels like DC isn't sure what to do with him at this point. Hopefully they figure it out because I don't imagine he'll be going anywhere.

[@jonnjones8263]

@@TheComicsPals They're better off getting rid of him. He's a waste of comic space.