Should Villains Be Redeemable?

[@robinmohamedally7587]

some should, some shouldn't. Depends entirely on character and context.

[@ComicBoomTube]

I very rarely want villains to be "redeemed". Why would I want that? I often view it as a failure of storytelling to make a hero interesting if one has to desperately engage in contrivance to make the bad guy, good. But hey, it does work sometimes.... but even when it appears to work on the surface, it soon evolves into the exception that proves the rule. Harley Quinn is a prime example of a character whose "redemption" was sloppily done but appeared to work with Palmiotti and Connor's New 52 interpretation of the character, but time has clearly shown how uninteresting Harley is as a current character. DC has no idea what to do with her and she is more of a PRIDE show piece rather than a character that reflects her original psychopathy. Most readers have no idea that Harley was genuinely bad and arguably evil during Leiberman's run - going so far as to actually let a child die. Remember that in "Mad Love", Harley was actually successful in creating a scenario where Batman would have died but for Joker's jealousy. I also point to Marc Silvestri's relatively recent Batman & The Joker : Deadly Duo mini series (2023) that highlighted a decidedly evil Harley that was unapologetically Joker-allied ---- and far more interesting than any iteration in well over a decade. Of course, Many can disagree with me on this..... but my point is that Harley as a villain lost much of her appeal to me when she became an anti-hero and she completely lost my interest when she became a literal joke. DC's failure with Harley is that they forget that she is supposed to be a villain who kills and is regularly incarcerated and used by Waller in the Suicide Squad. Also, Harley was never Joker's "victim" anymore than Joker was hers. There is a reason why Harley and Joker got together. THEY ARE BOTH PSYCHOPATHS and like attracts like. The greatest deception Harley ever pulled was making her fans think that she was a victim of the Joker. Hell, she even has Batman believing the nonsense. To make matters worse, not only have we effectively lost Harley as a villain but the infection has now cost us Poison Ivy who has evolved into a misunderstood victim of Jason Woodrow and then victim of the Gardner. I don't know what DC is thinking but they obviously do not want their premier PRIDE characters to be demented villains --- which explains all of the out of continuity stories focusing on them and completing revamping previous conceptions. Bah. Great discussion Pals. Always a blast listing to your insights.

[@TheComicsPals]

Although I think DC has done their best with trying to rehab the Harley Quinn character, I do agree that she's lost something in the process. I know she's very popular, but I don't think her massive popularity is in relation to her comic book presentation of the last decade. People LIKE the twisted version of her. I'm not sure how her fans in the comics' sphere would take her becoming a villain again though. She's considered Batfam now.

[@Syncratci]

I think villains should be redeemable if it fits the story or character, but it needs to be handled with a grace that is sometimes hard to find in big 2 superhero comics. To me redemption can't just be about being a better person and doing good things. It has to also be about making amends for past behavior and that almost never happens. Like I'm not expecting the comics to show Harley apologize to the families of the random people she's killed, but maybe there should be a panel or two where Emma expresses remorse and seeks forgiveness from major characters she's helped harm like Jean and Storm. Rogue made amends (multiple times) so I guess it's possible, you just need a writer like Claremont who is willing and capable enough to do that with grace and skill. There's also the cyclical problem that someone like Magneto struggles with where he starts off evil, is redeemed in the 80s, then does some truly heinous shit again in the 90s then goes through that cycle at least once again. It makes the redemption feel stilted.

[@TheComicsPals]

Yeah, I completely agree with your comments on the terms of redemption and the Magneto problem. It's hard to accept that these people overlook the awful things that characters like Magneto do.

[@Goblingraphx]

This was a great discussion, there is so many characters you could of examined. Turning villains is tricky and the less used villains are easier to turn heroes, for example Songbird from Thunderbolts worked. I do think the X-characters have the easiest time with switching sides because Xavier's teaching feel like they give second chances. Rogue and Emma Frost have seems to been the most accepted switch.

[@TheComicsPals]

Yeah, this absolutely could have been a much longer conversation. How do you feel about what they've done with Magneto?

[@cliffwoodbury5319]

Within any world, fiction or non fiction, any character with a name and presence who has a set of radical core values, has put forth an effort to either stand on a hill (good) or stand in a ditch (bad). Some characters on the hill that have made mistakes may stand on a diminished mound, bringing them down from their perch, and some villains that have done some right may find themslves closer to level ground if they do some right, but there are some who have a mountain so high or a sinkhole so deep that if they are made to have a 180 deg turnaround they become different characters.... It is comics and there are countless ways to make any fictional character totally change and make it seam relivent in a world of writing... but in the real world it would be almost impossible.

[@TheComicsPals]

Yeah, I struggle to accept it at times because I do wish there was more consistency and 'logic' to the way these relationships are presented and I think it breaks the logic for someone like Magneto to be redeemed, but like you say, it is comics.

[@cliffwoodbury5319]

@@TheComicsPals I still like my fictional explination if it is a character who can't just say "I'm different" - make it a cosmic mental barrier or something so I can feel like, I know what they did, but I can now feel they are redeemed because of the cosmic block.

[@J94nene]

I think a select few are able to pass the redemption path. Emma Frost, Venom, Harley Quinn, Red Hood, Rogue, Bucky and even Nebula are just the best examples to me that have the perfect redemptions to be Anti or full blown heroes. Characters like Magneto, Loki and Poison Ivy have too many chaotic views and destructive actions to get fully redeemed.

[@TheComicsPals]

Agreed. Some people have just done too much to be redeemable in my eyes. That applies in real life and comics.

[@comicsjoe0409]

Great discussion! But to the point that Joker can't carry a book cuz his a villain is hard for me to agree cuz Carnage has had many runs and he ain't no boy scout at any means. They just need to tell better villain stories. Mafia films do it all the time

[@cliffwoodbury5319]

Many people look at power levels and almost instantly draw a corrillation to those with more powers/abilities being worse indaviduals. But core values don't come with or from powers/abilities... More powerful characters often have the means to carry out larger scaled plans (magneto) while none powered ones (zsasz) and while one may be able to kill at intervals at a million at a time, the other has to be more maticulous, but over time may be capable and willing to do the same - neither are redeemable.... I'd say that example is extreme as I do believe some may be able to stop their evils, but if you've killed due to a believe and you stop killing, but feel like what you did was right, than are you any less evil over time, even if you won't kill again (some of that being because you have achieved your goals)

[@TonyTunes95]

Can you guys please do an Avengers Hero tier list ??

[@TheComicsPals]

I like that idea! We may get to it sometime.

[@sandywest4977]

Doom is Doom! I don't need you to define me with your simplistic labeling 🤫🤫

[@dlvnmedia]

Luthor Silver Banshee Parasite and Livewire - I would say none of them are villains at this point

[@TheComicsPals]

Those are the kinds of temporary changes that we've always seen. We were more talking about the attempts to rehab a character for the long term or, in cases like Emma Frost, permanently. At this exact moment in time Lex isn't a villain (he's not even really Lex), but I suspect that status quo will last a short period of time, as it always does whenever they do this with Lex.

[@dlvnmedia]

I could see Livewire and Siiver Banshee hell even Mercy being more permanent changes. Heck, I even kinda want that for them. But I love good and great redemption stories.