Do Seed Oils Really Cause Heart Disease? | Simon Hill on Mark Bell’s Podcast EP

[@jadedk9916]

The fact that Americans are way more obese than other nationals even when both consume a large amount of seed oils suggests that seed oils are not the culprit. When I lived in the US for several years, I was taken aback by how much highly processed food they consumed, not to mention fast food. Yes, other nationals do consume highly processed food, but no way near the amount Americans consume.

[@dennisward43]

Alone they may not be (until they go rancid, reheating etc) but when mixed with other bad highly processed foods including sugars that stimulate the appetite (hence why Americans are more obese) they only add to the problem. The same kind of companies that make seed oils also make food high in sugar (e.g breakfast cereals) and try to get people addicted to it from a very early age. Surely no one can doubt this. Lots of money is spent on making highly processed food addictive.

[@jadedk9916]

@@dennisward43 Don't be stupid. Highly processed foods including butter instead of seed oils are as bad as the same kind of foods using seed oils in making people obese. But the former will lead to more heart failures than the latter.

[@tnvol5331]

So seed oils are healthy when looking at it scientifically.

[@Meccarox]

@@tnvol5331 Yes

[@Insight-music]

The ability for social media to make pseudoscience go viral is alarming

[@InspiriumESOO]

Don't let science get in the way of a good witch hunt!

[@BillyBoy66]

@@InspiriumESOO Science doesn't say anything, scientists do. Sometimes the interpretation of the data is wrong. We have countless examples of that being the case.

[@HahaDamn]

@@Meccaroxnah observational studies are useless

[@Alper88]

One side says 'avoid seed oils, eat healthy stable saturated fats like butter and coconut oil', and the other side says 'saturated fat is bad for you, eat polyunsaturated fats from seed oils'. I just say: when in doubt, go for the middle ground: Extra Virgin Olive Oil. Both sides seem to be positive about that one:)

[@Parker_Miller_M.S.]

@@Alper88 olive oil can be great sure. No reason to fear other oils based on the data though.

[@someguy2135]

Canola oil has similar Health marker outcomes to Olive Oil. The KZbin channel nutrition Made Simple as videos on this subject. Be sure to check out his links to evidence in the description

[@dennisward43]

It depends on the quality of the olive oil. Much of it is nowadays adulterated with much cheaper seed oils.

[@HahaDamn]

@@dennisward43that’s not true

[@dennisward43]

@@HahaDamn Oh yes it is. Well it is panto season.

[@aboutsupplies]

That first Cochrane study. Effect of cutting down on the saturated fat we eat on our risk of heart disease Baseline Problem: Self-Reported Data Inherent Inaccuracy: Recall bias, misreporting, and portion size errors make self-reported dietary data inherently unreliable. Social desirability bias (underreporting "bad" foods, overreporting "healthy" foods) further skews data. Lack of Objectivity: Self-reported data is subjective and varies widely among participants, leading to noise in the dataset. Errors in nutrient estimation (e.g., saturated fat intake) can be significant, especially for complex or culturally diverse diets. Inability to Validate: Without objective measures (e.g., biomarkers or controlled feeding studies), there's no way to verify the accuracy of reported intake. Compounding the Problem: Linear Regression on Poor Data Linear Regression Assumptions: Linear regression assumes a consistent and measurable relationship between variables (e.g., saturated fat intake and cardiovascular outcomes). Poor-quality data violates the foundational assumptions of linear regression, leading to unreliable or biased results. Exaggeration of Errors: When regression is applied to noisy or inaccurate data, small errors in the baseline data are magnified. The result is often spurious associations or a weakening of genuine relationships. Long-Term Application: Linear regression applied to dietary changes and health outcomes measured years apart is particularly problematic: Dietary drift: People's diets change over time, but baseline data is treated as static. Delayed effects: Health outcomes influenced by many variables (e.g., genetics, exercise) are oversimplified when attributed to one factor like saturated fat intake.

[@Parker_Miller_M.S.]

@@aboutsupplies the Cochrane meta-analysis by Hooper et al 2020 fits into the broader body of evidence, it's not the be all end all. It's very comprehensive nonetheless and still shows benefits to reducing saturated fat on heart disease event risk which agrees with what we see in metabolic ward tightly controlled feeding studies where every calorie is controller for. Clarke et al 1997 meta-analyzed over 300 of these metabolic ward feeding trials and repotted PUFA to reduce LDL cholesterol especially when replacing saturated fat in the diet. This of course ties into heart disease literature showing the casual nature of LDL cholesterol on ASCVD development. Ergo, lower LDL cholesterol equals lower heart disease risk. This is fact and extensively supported. We can then track adherence using linoleic acid biomarkers in adipose tissue to track adherence. We consistently see those with higher linoleic acid levels have lower heart disease risk. A good meta-regression is Mensink 2016 with over 70 RCTs also showing lowering saturated fat and increasing PUFA lower LDL. If you have issues with self reported dietary data then you'll also have the same level of issues with physical activity data since much of that is also self reported. Is your confidence just as low then that physical activity is health promoting? If it's not then you have an unfair and dishonest bias against the dietary data.

[@TheProofWithSimonHill]

Is that from Chat GPT? The Cochrane study is over randomised controlled trials. Secondly, we have blood biomarker data from observational studies. “Using large prospective datasets, higher blood levels of LA were associated with lower risk of coronary heart disease, stroke and incident type-2 diabetes mellitus compared with lower levels, suggesting that, across the range of typical dietary intakes, higher LA is beneficial. Recent trials of LA-rich oils report favorable outcomes in people with common lipid disorders. However, an LA intake that is too high can impair endogenous synthesis of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) from alpha-linolenic acid (ALA), but the threshold at which this becomes clinically relevant is not known. In the absence of a significant intake of EPA and docosahexaenoic acid, an ideal dietary ratio of LA and ALA may be theoretically useful as it provides insight into the likely extent of endogenous EPA synthesis from ALA.” lipidworld.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12944-024-02246-2

[@Parker_Miller_M.S.]

@TheProofWithSimonHill I was wondering the same thing based on how their comment is structured and the inaccurate detailing of Hooper et al 2020. It's wild that people will do anything besides actually read the data themselves and then try to argue against the position of oils without familiarity with the evidence.

[@aboutsupplies]

@@TheProofWithSimonHill Thanks Simon. At the 1.7 minute mark you mentioned a Cochrane review study...was it titled .. Effect of cutting down on the saturated fat we eat on our risk of heart disease Published: 21 August 2020 Authors: Hooper L, Martin N, Jimoh OF, Kirk C, Foster E, Abdelhamid AS? If not, which one? Thanks.

[@DrTomMD]

If the goal is weight loss, reducing added fats of any type (ie not only seed oils but any type of extracted fat, whether tallow, seed oils or otherwise) would be advisable. And in fact, if overeating extracted fats, it would be “less risky” (but still risky) to overeat unsaturated fats than most common saturated fats in terms of CVD and insulin resistance. The issue regarding deep frying is more one of caloric overload, not trans fat formation. The amount of trans fats produced from common home or restaurant (esp scratch cooking restaurants) - ie below smoke point - frying is negligible to non-existent. The issue of high heating is one of oxidation, not partial hydrogenation. Two different chemical reactions. As noted in the Weston Price piece below (not an organization known for demonizing saturated fat), the concept of frying in seed oils causing large trans fat production was likely largely derived via internet driven rumor mill (many self appointed nutrition gurus available for such). It’s frustrating to defend against strongly but wrongly held beliefs based on rumor and/or selective studies as well as narrative purposed correlations (not to be confused with causation) and as a past president of the US National Board of Physician Nutrition Specialists, I fully sympathize with Simon (though, to be clear, by way of such sympathy, I do not endorse his sponsors): pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9002916/ www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/know-your-fats/trans-fatty-acids-are-not-formed-by-heating-vegetable-oils/

[@krishnaveganathar]

Cold pressed oils are the best. I often steam my vegetables and add some oil at the end, to avoid heating the oil. Half the amount of chicken, just leaves a half dead chicken.

[@juno6]

I love your content!!!

[@nitachikita3398]

Thanks Simon!!!!

[@seangreen8262]

You have made reference to study that compares poly unstatrares with saturates. Is there a study that shows the benefits of the diet with oils as compared with diet without the oils?

[@Parker_Miller_M.S.]

PREDI-MED compared olive oil to whole nuts and saw no significant differences between groups if memory serves. One should consume some amount of fat in their diet and whether that be from nuts or seeds or fruits like avocados, or oils that's up to them.

[@rogerpakrat800]

No because test subjects don't want to have seed oils running through their bodies. It's like saying to someone. Hey, is it ok if we hookup this intervenace that's loaded with strychnine.

[@Parker_Miller_M.S.]

@@rogerpakrat800 complete false equivocation. If oils were truly that bad no IRB or ethics board would approve any of the hundreds of trials looking at oil use in people. We see health benefits consistently by using oils. I mean c'mon man seriously, fearmonger much?

[@chrisliang6250]

Are they beneficial or less harmful, what about seed oils vs nothing or water etc....

[@Insight-music]

@@chrisliang6250 a lot of people that speak highly of Whole Foods diet don’t even use any oils. They steam their foods instead. It is a fact that oils are difficult for the body to get rid of

[@carsten8753]

Can you please debate Paul Saladino or even JP?

[@Parker_Miller_M.S.]

Both people are ideologues and not worthy of debating as they do not rely on evidence using similar epistemic standards to Simon.

[@carsten8753]

@ but why does he then debate Dr. Kiltz? His opinions on science are extremely controversial. They both rely heavily on science, so it would absolutely be an interesting debate.

[@Parker_Miller_M.S.]

@@carsten8753 it's the difference in level of evidence presented as alluded to in my prior comment. Simon utilizes human epidemiology and RCTs while understanding the statistical methods and limitations of that research as it applies to humans in a broader context. Saladino and Jordan Petersen have massive conflicts of interest to not rely or refer to the same evidence (saladio sells carnivore supplements and a book, JP has just strong personal feelings and is unlikely to actually rely on evidence, nor would JP be likely to understand the naunces of the nutrition field as hes a psychologist by training.). Saladino routinely uses mechanisms and poor quality evidence. It would just devolve into talking past each other due to a lack of epistemic similarities and story telling by PS and JP.

[@carsten8753]

@@Parker_Miller_M.S. JP is known for relying heavily on research and emphasizes it in almost all of his arguments. And I still don’t see why he cannot debate those when he debates people like Dr.Kiltz.

[@Parker_Miller_M.S.]

@@carsten8753 Simon can choose to debate them if the other party accepts. I'm mostly giving my predictions as to what I think will happen were a debate to occur. It would be helpful to have an unbiased moderator who is very familiar with scientific epistemology and debate logic to help prevent tangential conversations from happening, as we saw with Kiltz.

[@veniqe]

How to explain my normal cholesterol levels? I eat a mostly plant-free diet of 85% kidney fat/butter. My total cholesterol is slightly higher than it was this time last year, more than likely because I have been drinking lots of milk. My LDL is basically negligible. I emailed you/your team my lipid panel results. I'd really like your take on it.

[@Parker_Miller_M.S.]

Individual genetic differences most likely explain what you're sharing, but what is a "negligible LDL" though. Outlier genetics/hyporesponders don't represent the majority. Hence why public health advice is to limit saturated fat. Considering other health detracting effects are seen from animal foods containing saturated fat like red meat it's still wisest based on the evidence to limit those foods even if one is a hyporesponder to saturated fat and their cholesterol.

[@veniqe]

@@Parker_Miller_M.S. Individual differences is as result of individual diets and lifestyles. I'm a '''genetic outlier'' because of my diet. My LDL is 1.3mmol/L or 50..3mg/dl

[@Parker_Miller_M.S.]

​@@veniqe my LDL last tested was 42mg/dL but I eat very little saturated fat. You're unlikely to be laying down any plaque at that level of LDL unless you smoke, have diabetes, elevated blood pressure, or some other systemic inflammatory condition. What is your total, vldl, trigs, and HDL

[@tangerinetangerine4400]

How old are you?

[@veniqe]

@@Parker_Miller_M.S. I will get a full lipid panel next month, insha'Allah. My triglycerides were very low last year. I like to assume that it's around the same level now.

[@firstchoicefarm7767]

Has Simon ever got to a factory which makes cotton seed oil? Id like to see that video and have him drink that foodlike product at the end.

[@TheProofWithSimonHill]

What would that tell you/us?

[@firstchoicefarm7767]

@TheProofWithSimonHill just because a food study hasn't told us that it's bad yet, doesn't mean that it's good for us. I believe there's a large conflict with someone that encourages wholesome natural foods, but includes highly processed seed oils

[@Parker_Miller_M.S.]

​@@firstchoicefarm7767 oils have been studied for over 70 years and in the food shop for over 90 years. If there was a negative effect besides additional calories, especially in ultraprocessed foods, we'd have seen it by now with RCTs and cohorts. Oils are widely beneficial when replacing saturated fat like butter ghee lard or tallow. It's the outcomes that matter, not the processing of the food or culinary ingredient. Whey protein is technically ultraprocessed and is widely health promoting.

[@firstchoicefarm7767]

@@Parker_Miller_M.S. I can easily make (and have made) whey at home. It is not ultra processed by any stretch. I'm not against oils or fat. I'm against lubricants for machinery being put into the body.

[@Parker_Miller_M.S.]

@@firstchoicefarm7767 I'm talking about whey that is made on an industrial scale. Semantics aside, edible oils have been around for over 100 years and are vastly different than the original cottonseed oil used for machine lubricant. To compare edible oils, which consistently show health benefits across a variety of populations going all the back to the 60s, to machine lubricant is a false equivocation and denial of an immense amount of scientific evidence. Rest assured, edible oils are far far different than the original cottonseed oil made in the late 19th century for machines.

[@StephenMarkTurner]

I'm not going to sweat a spoon of dressing made with canola in my salad, but I don't really use oil other than that.

[@Insight-music]

Canola wouldn’t be the best because it’s ultra processed. Other seed oils are better

[@woofinu]

In future episodes, could you speak to 2 things: 1. The "common pathway" argument, that we want omega 3 and 6 in a certain ratio, 2. Soluble vs. insoluble fibers. Why does it matter, and what are some examples?

[@TheProofWithSimonHill]

I’ve done a recent ep on omega 3s you might enjoy

[@woofinu]

@@TheProofWithSimonHill I have watched your "masterclass" video but to be honest I am still not clear about what is the best approach. What I do now is to increase omega 3 and 6 (within reason) independently, without worrying about the ratio.

[@TheProofWithSimonHill]

@ sounds great and check your omega 3 index. Watch my omega 3 solo ep from a few months back

[@frunikol]

❤❤❤

[@BillyBoy66]

Avoid highly processed food. Seed oils are highly processed. Hence, avoid seed oils..... it's that simple, Simon.

[@Parker_Miller_M.S.]

Oils per the NOVA classification are actually considered culinary ingredients and not "ultraprocessed". Also you're falsely equivocating that all ultraprocessed foods are the exact same on health. Industrial amounts of whey protein are ultraprocessed and are widely health promoting for instance. The evidence on outcomes is clear that oils are neutral to beneficial on health especially when replacing saturated fat.

[@BillyBoy66]

@@Parker_Miller_M.S. Seed oils are ultra processed. I don't give a rat's a$$ what NOVA says about them. Remove ultra processed foods from your diet and most of your health issues will get better or resolve. I've seen tens of thousands of testimonies that prove it and I've done it myself. FYI.... Science gets things wrong, Parker. And in fact, science doesn't say anything.... scientists do. You should wake up to the fact that "the science" can be, and often is, wrong on these issues, especially when there are so many other factors to consider. These scientific methods are not perfect. They fail to find cause in many of these studies.

[@BillyBoy66]

@@Parker_Miller_M.S. Seed oils are ultra processed. I don't give a rat's a$$ what NOVA says about them. Remove ultra processed foods from your diet and most of your health issues will get better or resolve. I've seen tens of thousands of testimonies that prove it and I've done it myself. FYI.... Science gets things wrong, Parker. And in fact, science doesn't say anything.... scientists do. You should wake up to the fact that "the science" can be, and often is, wrong on these issues, especially when there are so many other factors to consider. These scientific methods are not perfect. They fail to find cause in many of these studies.

[@totallyraw1313]

Simon has tickets on himself

[@TheProofWithSimonHill]

@@totallyraw1313 I’m presuming you disagree with my position here? If so, can you present data that leads to your position? If not, then maybe your view of me is clouded by your bias against seed oils?

[@totallyraw1313]

@TheProofWithSimonHill No, I actually agree with you. I also think the other information in your videos is great, which is why I subscribe to your channel. I just think you have tickets on yourself and I find your accent annoying. When you pronounced the word canola, for example, you even put an r on the end of it. Neither Australians nor Americans do that. 😄

[@TheProofWithSimonHill]

@ you’re entitled to your view. Have a great day!

[@Lieutenant-Dan]

​@@totallyraw1313 what does that even mean?

[@BeingReal1]

@@totallyraw1313 Be civil and respectful, please. Never personal.

[@candoit123]

Just do some new studies with healthy individuals eating saturated fats. Carnivore, Keto etc compared with seed oil buddies. I've meet people that put there hand up for these studies!! Not impressed 😅

[@wendywitchner7401]

Give it time☠️

[@Parker_Miller_M.S.]

We have an immense about or data looking at saturated fat in healthy and less healthy people. The effects are generally the same. Mensink 2016 did a massive meta-regression of over 70 randomized controlled trials showing saturated fat increases LDL cholesterol and Clarke et al 1997 meta-analyzed over 300 metabolic ward studies also showing saturated fat increases LDL cholesterol. Reynolds et al 2022 did a massive meta-analysis of over 100 cohort studies and over 3.6 million people showing higher tissue levels of saturated fatty acids increased incidence of type 2 diabetes and overall death. Higher LDL cholesterol is worse for health this is not disputed as higher LDL cholesterol has log linear risk with heart disease. Similar to pack years of smoking, higher LDL for longer is bad universally. Hope that helps!

[@MagicButtersClass]

🤦‍♂️

[@robinsmit1632]

That's assuming that people on a carnivore diet are healthy lol

[@rogerpakrat800]

Question was. Are you being paid by any Seed oil company? You got out of your chair, put your hands in your pocket, and said no. The problem is you didn't turn your pockets inside out. Seed oil company's Big pharma. Big food. All have people on their payroll. Seed oil is more dangerous than fructose.

[@TheProofWithSimonHill]

@@rogerpakrat800 yes big flax seed funds my life

[@Parker_Miller_M.S.]

@@rogerpakrat800 when people say stuff like this they also have to consider beef and animal agriculture industry pocket money which very pervasive. Otherwise it just comes across like conspiracy craziness. I can sympathize with thinking that it's all a conspiracy when a lot of people report on what the data consistently show, but not everybody is in the pocket book of industry just because they share the data.

[@Me-zq7vt]

@@TheProofWithSimonHill lol

[@tanyasydney2235]

Don't spout nonsense!

[@rogerpakrat800]

OK. Guy's, I've got to admit. I do use canola oil to get rid of squeaky door hinges. I also use crisco oil on the bearing of my mountain bike. Apparently, that's what it was initially used for. CRISCO Put some on your wagon wheels, TODAY. So, no thanks, I'll stick to my short and medium chain ⛓️