Do Signets Destroy Cubes?

We have the skinny on these love 'em or hate 'em mana rocks for cube. We consider why they inspire such strong feelings, and we weigh the benefits of including some or all in an environment.
Part One of Signets Series: • Why You Should Draft S...
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Resources Cited:
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[@oh4497]

these graphics are getting pretty professional

[@CulticCube]

Thank you! I learn a little something with each effort.

[@hopehawk]

My rule on mana rocks is that they can't product more or the same amount of mana as their cost. So no Basalt Monolith, Grim Monolith, or Sol Ring. Signets effectively cost 3 to get two mana at first and then get better so this makes them among the best rocks, but I'm happy running the cycle. I haven't found them to be problematic in my cube environment.

[@CulticCube]

I like that condition! That's a elegant way of defining a limitation for your mana rocks.

[@rforthman1]

This awesome! KZbin needs more high quality cube content like this

[@CulticCube]

Thank you so much for the kind words!

[@moralessanchezoscarelias6412]

It's great that you compile different perspectives on such a debated topic. Great work! Also, I'm so excited to see my tweet in the video! :D

[@CulticCube]

Yes, thanks for contributing your perspective! I didn't end up citing those with whom I quoted from that Twitter thread, but I put everyone in that acknowledgements card. I thought it best not to out people as signets lovers or haters, especially since I began the discussion informally, and no one expected to be "on the record." Also, I figure viewers could look up the tweet thread if they were super curious.

[@moralessanchezoscarelias6412]

@@CulticCube Yeah, I'm glad to be part of the cube community all over social media. I'm looking forward to your upcoming videos!

[@SoulsNThings]

I really enjoyed this video. I'd love your take on multicolor sections in cubes .

[@CulticCube]

Thanks so much! And that's a great idea for a video topic -- thank you for the suggestion.

[@Throgan]

Very well done. The video touched on other rocks briefly, but it feels like it wouldn't have been that much of a stretch to talk about how/when to include mana rocks in general, not just signets specifically (although they're a big piece of it obv)

[@CulticCube]

That's totally true. I intended to focus on Signets, but as I worked on the project, I realized I should at least mention the rocks that I run. At that point I could have gone back and reworked the concept, but it still felt valuable to maintain focus on Signets specifically. At any rate, perhaps a future topic might be devoted to rocks more generally.

[@schrottinator]

I like to use the Lockets over the Signets. They are fixers that come at a reasonable cost and I like a bit lower power level.

[@SoulsNThings]

I'm really enjoying this channel. I have shown your Sligh and White Weenie primers to players who were struggling playing aggro and its helped them alot.

[@CulticCube]

That's so good to hear! I am delighted that people have found a little something of value here. That makes my day - thanks!

[@TheTurkishBear]

Hey man just discovered your channel and wanted to say that your content is amazing. It’s a shame you have only 892 aubscribers by now...keep up the good work

[@CulticCube]

Thanks so much!! Our tribe is small but growing, lol. :)

[@QUAD9s]

Really enjoyed the video. Editing and topic is top notch.

[@CulticCube]

Thank you so much!

[@lock1863]

As a new viewer, I'm totally blown away by the quality of your content!! Your videos are incredibly helpful to a new cube curator such as myself. Keep up the great work!

[@CulticCube]

That's wonderful to hear! Thank you so much for taking the time to say so.

[@TimWalkerHobbies]

Such a thorough deepdive into the subject, really enjoyed hearing pros/cons and alternatives to immediately assuming the need to field a complete cycle

[@CulticCube]

Hey, thank you! I'm glad you found it interesting.

[@TrainmasterGT]

Great Video John!

[@retrowaffles5442]

I opted to run the checklands and 'reveal a forest or mountain' lands from shadows over innistrad. These generally come in untapped in a 2 color deck that might be splashing for a 3rd color, but punish greedy drafters by often coming in tapped if they're in a fully 3 or 4 color deck

[@mikmikson4424]

I’m making my first cube and I really appreciate all the tips

[@CulticCube]

Oh that's great!! Exciting stuff! Congratulations on diving into cube design. Obviously I'm deeply biased, but I think it's one of the most enjoyable and intellectually rewarding grand puzzles that one can set oneself to.

[@girugamesh9001]

solid stuff as always

[@CulticCube]

Thank you, Funch!

[@joonasjarnvall832]

Very nice vid man! I personally run all signets and feel very good about it. My cube 360 unpowered I would say about strix 8 in power. Format is pretty fast and you really need to impact game(cast spells) before turn 3. Signets support wildfire strategy and beside planeswalkers are actually only reason to go for it. Green has its primal ramp at cmc1 with dorks which I run 7 atm. Aggro stragies with white and red or both are very healthy and powerful in format so greedy 5 color piles are kept in check. Also there isnt really reason to run worse mana rocks cause i dont support artfact starategies. Only coalition relic, mana vault and chrome mox. Make the cut after signets.

[@CulticCube]

Great to hear your experience with the signets, thanks! I appreciate your rationale for running the lot of them. I take a different tack inasmuch as I run just the one Talisman, but I do run a great many of the other rocks.

[@eduardocervantes5346]

Awesome video

[@januszo.2180]

Great content. Subbed; will come for more food for thought

[@CulticCube]

Thanks so much!

[@alanyuan8565]

I opted to include very hateful artifact hard such as kataki, collector ouphe, all the variants of reclamation sage in my vintage cube to counter balance the moxen/ signet fast mana.

[@Lusk1993]

I love talismans! Paying 1 life i feel is the appropriate cost espicially when aggro is very pronounced in cube

[@Seergun]

I have a 540 peasant cube and run the non-green signets, on the basis that green doesn't need the help. (Also haven't updated it in years, really need to do that...)

[@gastySK9]

Subd, been looking for a youtube channel on cubing for a while now, thanks!

[@CulticCube]

Yay, glad you are getting something out of the videos!

[@FelipeBudinich]

My solution is to run Mana Myrs, red aggro is able to disrupt them with direct damage, they play nice with Battlesphere (a great Tinker target), and if it still feels too oppressive for aggro you just need to move your wrath effects to 5 Mana, doing a service to your wallet at the same time :)

[@CulticCube]

I like that solution. I experimented a bit with Palladium Myr at one point (the one who taps for CC). I found that it was too fragile, or people considered it too risky such that it was underdrafted. But I can totally see that you could design an environment that leans into Myrs for fixing, and that's just what you make available. That sounds really interesting! It would make for a profoundly different environment than mine.

[@FelipeBudinich]

@@CulticCube (going to copy my post from the forum) Yes, I agree, they ARE even weaker than Mirage mana rocks because they can be easily disrupted with white/black creature removal, red direct damage and green/red/white artifact removal, and besides playing nice with Myr Battlesphere they hold equipment or auras, crew vehicles and chump block on a pinch, leading to more interesting board states and interactions. I'm trying to change some underlying assumptions about cube with mine (it's probably going to be a slow process as I don't have a frame of reference nor unlimited resources :-p ) and I also identified the Signets debate as one with wide ramifications. Once I thoroughly tested the mana myrs, I want to move onto a solution for mana fixing that doesn't cause fixing + ramp outside of green.

[@joelsherrer8784]

I like to run complete cycles of cards!

[@danielkings2443]

I run the non green signets as green’s ramp outclasses signets with one drop ramp and it’s two mana ramp such as channel and natures lore doing a far better job than the signets while still demonstrating that green is the king of ramp

[@julianvickers]

I would play Coldsteel Heart over either Guardian Idol or Star Compass, but you do you.

[@CulticCube]

Thanks for the comment! I didn't spend much time here explaining my own approach to rocks generally, as that wasn't meant to be the main subject of the video. Perhaps I should have! But in brief: I generally try to avoid color fixing at two cmc. The big exception is Izzet Signet. Star Compass is an exception as well, but it only taps for what you already have, of course, so it doesn't find a splash color for you, for instance.

[@julianvickers]

@@CulticCube Ok that's fair. I guess we have different cube philosophies. I'm against running multiple copies of cards in my cube, even if it has gameplay advantages. There's just something inelegant about breaking the singleton rule that I can't personally get over. The same thing goes for adding custom errata to cards. I feel like the payoff for making "Into the North" into a second rampant growth by adding custom errata just isn't enough to justify making the cube experience less elegant and "pure" (if that's even a thing). My approach would be to just run Three Visits. This is of course just my personal opinion, and I encourage every cube designer to follow what feels right for them.

[@CulticCube]

@@julianvickers I can totally understand a reluctance to errata cards or to run duplicates. These transgress the spirit of cube for many people. I am certainly not trying to sell anyone on trammeling their stipulations for their format! Your point is well taken with Into the North. I would jam Three Visits into my cube in a heartbeat if it weren't 75 USD for a Rampant Growth, lol. Of course, I recognize that one could add the card with the aid of nothing more than a Sharpie and a basic land. In this case, I prefer to errata a cheaper card than to proxy the more expensive one.

[@adavidavis2762]

support man

[@tcmatias]

Do you have any video on guild lockets?

[@cubefortwo]

What are you using for your graphics, they are getting really polished and I am super jealous. ;-)

[@CulticCube]

Hey, thanks! You are knocking it out of the park with your content! You have a steady stream of great stuff coming out. I'd be happy to talk shop. I just found you on Twitter and added you -- maybe we can catch up via DMs there?

[@cubefortwo]

@@CulticCube sounds great

[@squid8520]

LONG LIVE THE SOAP!

[@JazzyBassy]

I want to run them because I am making a themed Ravnica Cube and want symmetrical cycles for each guild. Do you think a simple house rule of: "All signets enter the battlefield tapped" or "All signets cost one more mana to cast" would do the trick?

[@CulticCube]

I errata cards as well occasionally! Etb tapped would make them worse, for sure, but not by a lot. Making them 3 mana would make them a great deal worse.

[@humphrex]

dont neccessariy agree that signets become better in low power cubes. I run a pauper cube. Signets are fine and strong there, but far form broken, because of the high amount of aggro creatures and the basically lack of sweeper (pretty much only pestilence and crypt rats)

[@CulticCube]

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I can see that the lack of wraths available to pauper would make a huge difference in the relative brokenness of Signets. When I mentioned lower power environments, I was far too vague. I meant cubes of something more like Standard or Modern power level; I wasn't actually thinking Peasant or Pauper. My apologies for my imprecision. I appreciate the corrective!

[@humphrex]

@@CulticCube yeah i guessed that you wouldnt put those into consideration ^^ but we exist ;)

[@CulticCube]

​@@humphrex That's an oversight! I apologize -- I recognize that peasant and pauper cubes are very popular formats. I will better account for these formats in the future. And I rely on you to let me know what I'm missing or misevaluating when it comes to formats with which I have less direct experience!

[@moralessanchezoscarelias6412]

Interesting to learn from a perspective on pauper cubes. A format no Wrath/Damnation is quite a different environment. Actually, in my non-powered cube, I have explicitly cut the mana rocks that let control decks sweep the board before turn 4.

[@humphrex]

@@moralessanchezoscarelias6412 you could always keep the stones and run higher cc sweeper.