Do Vocal Mics Go Bad? Lets Hear what happens!

Null testing vocal mics to hear degradation do to build up of spit and other issues
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00:00 Introduction
00:25 Why do I have loads of Audix Mic Capsules?
02:25 Mic capsules as speakers
02:45 Mic deterioration over time and use
04:06 Setting up a null test
08:40 New mic vs used mic
09:40 Two new mics
10:19 new and old mic
11:25 Two new mics
11:49 different new mic vs new mic
14:01 Summary

[@97superior]

Doing my occasional check-in to thank Dave for what he is doing. This time last year I had failed my masters degree, was unemployed, severely depressed, alcoholic. Since finding these videos I decided to learn about the industry and try to learn about audio. Within this year I have worked multiple venues and small festivals, just completed a masters degree in audio (I didn't even know what EQ was when I started), have worked FOH with big bands like Stiff Little Fingers, Bad Manners and China Crisis, built up my own portable audient/SSL recording studio, worked with famous studios such as Rockfield (Queen, Black Sabbath etc) and Longwave (Bring me the horizon, motorhead etc) and have now have an interview to be a venue technician at the Royal Welsh University. Keep up the fantastic work, it has changed my life and I am sure have changed so many others!!!

[@DaveRat]

Rock it all the way up!!!

[@roachdoggjr45]

Brother!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@dustinjackson8646]

On a semi-related note- A few months ago I did a gig that had a pair of brand new beta 58's mixed in with some old ones (I hadn't noticed the new ones at 1st) and I found myself equing 2 mics differently consistently for the 1st night (week of gigs in one venue). Sure enough I discovered it was those two new mics. They were direct from a Shure distributor so I'm confident they weren't clones. Anyway, after an hour of fiddling with these mics before the gig on day two I discovered not only were these mics not performing as well as the older ones, the body of them was microphonic. While holding them, if you sorta gripped them harder and wiggled your fingers a little you could hear it. On the old ones, the body was far better isolated from the capsule. The new ones caused far more issues with feeding back as well. I compared them visually to the old ones and Shure enough (pun intended 🤣), there were obvious differences between them physically. These were Mexican manufacturered and the old ones were not. The company has very obviously made changes to the new mics and not for the better. It seems insane to me that they would allow this to happen given the pedigree of 58's. I recognize there are better vocal mics on the market but considering Shure probably has more on the line with 58's than any other product they offer, one would think their QC would be next level for these staples of the industry. Let's hope it's rectified sooner than later. Anyway, thanks for the quality content Dave!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@Diademnever]

yes! even the sm57s the chinese ones are darker mexico is brighter

[@ulrikjohansson140]

The passion you have for sound is so nice to see!

[@DaveRat]

Thank You Ulrik Johansson

[@diedigitalestadt3408]

thank you. wonderful stuff.

[@stevean77]

Appreciate what you do for our industry Bro I was never sure if this was a factor but every year after my tour season is done i buy all new vocal mics and sell the others as used products

[@DaveRat]

Very cool and great plan!

[@GuiSchwertner]

you're just such a humble legend! cheers from brazil

[@ChrisReedJr]

Great demo Dave, thanks for showing.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Chris!

[@Edwin-van-der-Putten]

I didn't realise that this has so much influence on the sound! COOL video, Dave! Thanks! 🙂

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@georgeburt5546]

Thanks Dave. Just love these deep dives into places that I have never considered. The quality of the questions you ask and the techniques for testing and proving are illuminating and educational to say the least!! When I get a moment the crusty old SM58s and my AKG fleet will get some checking. Namaste..

[@DaveRat]

Yuck and yes!

[@katabatica]

I've learned heaps from you Dave. Thanks!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@jeffwitherell4272]

I had a beta 87A for a couple years that was used for speaking frequently, and recently a bought a second new beta87A and immediately noticed the older one having a darker high frequency response. This video was very helpful for me to understand why that would be thanks Dave

[@curtis_chip]

hey Dave, excellent demonstration.. thanks !

[@DaveRat]

🔧👍🔧

[@games.music.tech.3560]

Dave thank you for the great content per usual brother, you have such a gift. Thanks for breaking it down - I train technicians every wednesday in my theatre and often I bring points from your videos into my lessons. I think this will be a great point to drive home with my monitor engineer!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@brucenicoll4373]

Once again thanks Dave

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@teashea1]

An excellent topic and ----- very well done

[@DaveRat]

Thank you!

[@livemixpriyan]

Hey Dave, thanks again for the video. Could you please do a video regarding how you practically work with mic bleeding on the stage. Example: Bleeding Cymbals and Snare from the vocal microphones. Thanks a lot in advance

[@JaxGuitarPlayer]

Great vid! An idea for another vid would be showing an example of a good way to properly clean such mics and then repeating the same tests on it. To comparing how much an improvement from before and after the mic that was cleaned could potentially make.

[@DaveRat]

Cool, will ponder and actually I accidentally posted this unfinished vid. I have another mic repair vid I meant to post. But travelling in Europe and posting from my phone is a bit cumbersome

[@DaftFader]

The look of hoarders guilt on your face as you start trying to explain why you have so many mic pods is gold xD. You're managing to put them to good use though it seems, between this, the tube speaker build and the various other experimental vids I've seen you do with them. If anyone has a use for 100's of mic pods, outside of using them to go in actual microphones, it's probably you haha. ;)

[@DaveRat]

👍👍👍 DaftFader

[@TronicWiz]

Thanks Dave learning a lot from your videos!!!

[@DaveRat]

Cool cool Nate!

[@carlubambi5541]

Thank you Dave .I have had to swap out some beer soaked mikes a couple times.I ran into a 1950s moving coil microphone and it just blew me away as to how accurate and how even something so old can work .

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@GillesAndrea]

thank you for your videos, always very interesting!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@rolfdc2934]

I love this type of video's, very educational. Do you think that the grill and foam could also play a role in this? Cleaning the grill and the foam may be easier than replacing the capsule.

[@DaveRat]

The pattern is Always clean the grill foam Replace grill foam if it shows wear or is not longer soft and can see through it Dry capsules every show Rebuild mics when they start to sound dull even with a new grill

[@Steveleebdutoit]

Always gold on your channel

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@thomasowenmazzetti7877]

awe man, only if i wanted to live in la, i would ask to come work with you. i really love the physics that goes into putting on a show.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@marcusfrombespokeaudio5372]

Another great video! Have you done anything in terms of demonstrating how to orient two splayed, in-phase point-source speakers so that a null is created behind them? It's something I was experimenting with this summer in order to decrease stage volume on smaller stages, when the FOH speakers are often quite close to the band.

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, point source speakers don't inherently have a rear null unless designed to intentionally or accidentally. I would say messing with some prediction software from Meyer, L-Acoustics or D&B and using speakers that are close to the ones you own, would be a good start

[@BNC593]

Dave, I’m not sure what we’d do without you! Absolutely brilliant. We all had a feeling our mics degrade over time, but this test underscores that thought with real data. Hmm…. It’s probably time for mic replacements! Lol.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@jjadragna]

8:30 that’s what I used to call the Motörhead effect but you mention it as Gratefull Dead too ;) in all case that’s impressive and as usual a great demonstration

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@valleywoodstudio7345]

Excellent - going to point my students toward your channel. I've two really old SM58's that have gone down this route but may attempt to clean them. I used to do a lot of comedy shows and one instance they had bile wiped across them from the Bastard Son Of Tommy Cooper after swallowing two swords, or bits of smashed apple and even rice grains!. Yuk. I was given a really old Shure Unidyne 545SD that had been in a stable where they did horse trials all its life - think going back to early 70's. The foam had deteriorated in front of the capsule and there was a very fine brown dust caked on the diaphragm. I managed to get it back to being a decent sounding mic with careful brushing with distilled water on the diaphragm - I prefer it to some of the newer SM57's I have for recording.

[@DaveRat]

Wow and yuck!

[@mdhazeldine]

How often would you suggest reconditioning mics? I know it's a "how long is a piece of string" question, but let's say you do 2 shows per week, would once a year be about right? Also, do you have any advice on how to get them reconditioned? Is it a case of cleaning the capsules or does the capsule actually need a full replacement? And who offers that kind of service or is it easy to do yourself?

[@66fitton]

Now I know why my old talk back mic sounds like crap lol. Great tip man! I just downloaded a multicolor noise generator to test all my mics with. Thanks again!🤘

[@DaveRat]

Cool, let me know how it goes

[@66fitton]

@@DaveRat Hey Dave! Just finished the testing and found that one of my Senn 835's was pretty different than the others. It's been relegated to the spare mic box. I'm getting one brand new one that I'll test as well to see how bad the rest actually are lol. In other news, I've got my M32 and X32 both set up to do drums and vocals in one stack and Guitar and bass in the other. Got 4 single 18's and 4 tops to give it a go. Got the effects sorted out too. I'm leaving sends on fader on, and selecting the actual channel which brings up the two buss' that it's being sent to. Just move them both up or down and you're mixing only that channel. Have no idea if that's how it's done lol, but it works! Thanks again for all you share man! We are all better at this because of it! CHEERS!!

[@PeterNiallLancaster]

Thanks Dave. Very informative. We’ve had issues with Audix OM5 in a rehearsal room environment. They sound great when new, but over time they dull and eventually are useless for exactly the reason you explained. Some other mics we have used don’t degrade as quickly. The foam in the grill of an OM5 is noticeably thinner than an SM58 which probably explains this. Based on my experience I am not surprised by the number of OM7 capsules you have, we’ve gone through a lot of capsules as well. Audix are great mics, but the design of the OM series means that they don’t really stand up well to being used for several hours a night on a daily basis.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@DaveRat]

Is artifactingreality who posts a conspiracy video on mind control calling me a retard? Ha ha ha ha ha! This is rich!

[@richstringfellow7232]

Hi Dave, Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge. Came across your channel while researching clipping. I recently bought a tiny one screen theater in town and some of the equipment was toast. Replaced a non-functional Marantz sr5007 with an sr6015. I'm using pre outs to 4 lab gruppen e series, one 12:2, two 8:2 and one 4:2. There was a third 8:2 but the heat light was on and 2nd channel was blown so I pulled it. We have three mackie c300z for the left right and center, and two s518s subs (one unplugged due to the bad amp). There's also six boston speakers for the surround sides and rears. I believe they are CS 26 II models. I'm getting a crackle sound, kind of like bacon frying in hot grease, when there's heavy sound load during action scenes. I think it's clipping, but the only thing I know about audio is what I've been able to learn in the last week or so. Tried various configurations to better match amp wattage to speakers and adjusted many settings on the receiver and amps but can't get rid of it. I'm starting to wonder if all that equipment is pulling too much juice and starving the amps when they're under load and trying to feed the speakers. Going to try splitting some equipment onto another circuit tomorrow to test the theory. Have you ever seen anything like this or have any thoughts you could share? Thank you for the time and effort you put into your content. It's a great help to others.

[@DaveRat]

Probably clipping or overloading a speaker. Putting a limiter on the output before the amps can be the easiest way to tame that Or if you have amps with processing, setting the amp limiters

[@richstringfellow7232]

@@DaveRat Thanks Dave. I'll give that a try.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@danielmarceau6745]

Great video 🤙

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@willymccabe6602]

I've been trying to convince other musician friends of mine that mics don't just have to stop working to go bad. You can hear the sound degradation over time. Had it happen to a D112, a 57 and a 58, a Blue Encore. Gotta use your ears.

[@DaveRat]

And also test against a known working unit to demonstrate and verify any issues

[@nielsott]

Your test confirms my findings: Two SM58s seldom sound the same, even when brand new. Would be interesting to see this test with Sennheisers, AKGs or Audix' of different price ranges. To my ears, it's less severe starting with the better Sennheisers and AKGs series (like e935, and C7 resp. D7). I don't use Audix mics, so I can't tell about those.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@warasilawombat]

Transducer tolerances are really hard to get down. Sennheiser does a pretty good job and so does Shure, but for the 80-100 dollar price segment you gotta make some value engineering compromises!

[@DaveRat]

Agreed

[@coffeehigh420]

I'm a big fan of the Sennheiser e935 :) - excellent for live shows to mic pretty much anything from guitar cab to vocals! - hardly any EQ from the console as it really cuts through and has a high output with minimal feedback so you can really drive it hard. I also have the e945 but find it's a little too sibilance sounding for my taste.

[@frankangermann6460]

Thank u!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@jasonlapasinskas5302]

Would love to see a QC video like this with the SE Electronics V7. They seem to be all over the place, especially the wireless capsules. I’ve had several die pretty quick

[@DaveRat]

Not familiar with them

[@MrAnfax]

@@DaveRat In Denmark people seems to love 'em for the same reason as the audix om series. My guess is the probably have the same problem with moisture as well. Wouldn't be surprised if the design is similar, to the audix.

[@changedahanddlessss]

i was wondering why they ran through 120 mics on tour ha..good stuff sir..

[@Red.Christopher]

I appreciate that you take all these principles I spent time learning and then apply them in very practical situations. I love this stuff.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Chris!

[@peehandshihtzu]

So interesting to see those bars just disappear with the new mics but they just refuse to null with the mismatched set. Cool Cool! :)

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍👍

[@MrAdopado]

It would be interesting to test the mics with the ball grills off ... particularly as the foam inside is going to be even more affected by deposits than the diaphragms themselves. We need to determine if the issue is with the diaphragm or the foam or the ball grill. I also wonder if there is some possibility of lightly cleaning the surface of the diaphragm.

[@DaveRat]

A bit different adventure but here's some tests I did on the SM58 grill and its impact on the sound kzbin.info/www/bejne/d5-lh6mvgK2jesk

[@christsanjoures]

We do mic compares all the time using the transfer function - where you can literally compare one mic to the next. If the mics match, then the TF response will be flat mag/flatphase. If they don't match, then the resultant graph will be exactly how the measurement input microphone is different than the reference input microphone. Much easier to measure this way than fiddling with an RTA next time!

[@DaveRat]

Yes, a full setup will definitely let you see a line on a screen that wiggles the same or differently than another line on a screen, but that does not let you hear the actual differences. When you see differences represented as a line on a screen, what do those different screen lines sound like? Are they audible? Drastic? Insignificant? One of the things I have seen many times over the years is people over eq'ing to make a line flat at the expense of sound quality, or using measurement scales that fail to show relevant and audible issues. For this test, you don't need the RTA, it can be done purely with your ears or ears and the console meter. One of my goals is to guide people into listening and determineing and not just looking at gear and assuming.

[@kevinpetit9886]

Great Video. 😃👍♥️

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@andyk9685]

Once upon a time I didn't know who you are and what exactly you do. After a one of your movie, I wrote something stupid. Now I listen to You Dave like a prophet. ;-)

[@DaveRat]

Great to meet you Andy!

[@jjchello]

Hi Dave. Unrelated topic to the video but a question I just thought of I wanted to get your perspective. I recently saw Hall & Oates live and they played a prerecorded video they made during COVID in almost its entirety before and between acts. The unique thing about this was they cranked the volume so it was part of the experience (not just for background music). I was already thinking about your concept of recreating the natural world physics of making sure every sound source the audience hears is from one primary place of reproduction and how “stereo-mono” creates phase cancelation. While I was watching these prerecorded videos during the Hall and Oates show, I couldn’t help but think how prerecorded audio is mixed for predominantly for home/vehicle stereo or headphone listening - not live sound reinforcement. What do you do when you don’t have control over the stereo pan and basically only have control over EQ and volume? I couldn’t help but think if you set the stage for minimum unwanted phase cancelation and then have to play a stereo mixed track through your unique-to-the-venue setup system, all that work would be undone. Not asking as a challenge to your theory. More just to continue the thought experiment. Thanks!

[@DaveRat]

That's kind of like the headliners sorting a wide and issue free mix and the opener mixing in mono. When mixing shows, I lived it when other engineers mixed mono, it just gave my show that much more impact

[@marcusfrombespokeaudio5372]

If the recording doesn't have any phase issues - which can easily be checked with a plugin in almost any DAW - then I'd think that it shouldn't have any issues in the PA. It's just a really big home stereo, right?

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@slovokia]

How well do large stadium sized PA systems reproduce frequencies above 8khz? I could see old mics being an issue for recording concerts but could most audiences tell the difference live listening at FOH? (Ignoring the feedback issue)

[@fred8816]

Hey Dave, what a interesting concept by the grateful dead, to minimise vocal bleed! Just a quick question, if this technique is so useful, how come it's not commonly used by engineers everywhere? Is there some significant drawbacks using this two mic technique live? ie comb filtering etc? Thank you so much for your content!

[@DaveRat]

The advantage of 2 mics in close proximity that are out of polarity, is they cancel sound that hits both mics at the same time, quite well. The issue is that higher freqs dont cancel well and lows cancel really well, so you get sort of an HF swish. Also when singing into one, the lows of the voice tend to cancel and the highs dont. So the voices sound thin and phasey. It a bandaid and works but is not wonderful sounding.

[@fixedfocusmediaofficial]

What I found was some older dynamic mics are not as corrosion resistant and corrosion prevents the coil from moving freely and negatively affects the sound. Some mics are better than others and usage and environmental factors can cause problems for some microphones to. It depends on a lot of things including the microphone and how it was built.

[@DaveRat]

Agreed

[@robertthornton2269]

Thank you! Great Video! Is it just not worth cleaning, and replacing ebuilding caps is the way to go?

[@DaveRat]

Yes, clean and maintain! And for a major tour, replace and rebuild. Like an F1 race, trying to get a few more laps out of a worn tire or engine is not worth it but for most situations the demand for flawless perfection is not as high

[@imark7777777]

Well I didn't see the big pile of capsules last time but now I'm very curious.

[@101silencio]

Hi Dave! Thaks very much for all the content... Here’s my question: How do we know if the difference in response is due to the pop-screen foam more than the membrane itself? Cheers, and thank you again!

[@DaveRat]

Take off the grills, and put a foam pop filter that is new on and compare

[@danniv13]

What headphones are those? Look like great noise cancelers. Thanks. Excellent demonstration.

[@DaveRat]

Sony CD3000, they sound great and wish they still made them

[@danniv13]

@@DaveRat Thank you.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@dennismoore1116]

I commented that a suggestion for better results might be to use freely available REW measurement software to measure results. You send a sweep signal to a monitor speaker. Have the test microphone on a mic stand 2 meters away. Then swap to another identical microphone. Do the sweep again. And you can display the graph showing level and frequency response differences. In practice hardly any more difficult than what is being done in the video. I've done this with multiple microphones I've acquired 2nd hand. Usually they match within a decibel over the whole range. If one has a problem it stands out clearly. Doing this would be quicker and easier than the technique in the video if you are doing several microphones. BTW, the technique in the video is fine, and will work. This other way is more precise and just as easy.

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, I like any method that involves actually hearing the differences so one can determine whether the differences are relevant to their application. How useful is it really to see a line on a computer screen that tells you there is a difference and then you need to guess about what that difference sounds like or even if it's audible? One of the main goals of my videos is to get people to listen by showing how to do simple tests with readily available gear. And not avoid test gear that is easy, but show tests that help people calibrate thier ears to what they see on test gear

[@dennismoore1116]

@@DaveRat -The test I mentioned would show you in detail if a microphone is off. My assumption is if you are doing this for touring bands, unless the mike checks out against a reference you replace it. I did not get the idea if it checks out close you send it back to be used. I also find your method has variability that is greater than what is audible or not. So it might sound audible or not due to that variability which makes it a relatively unreliable way to go about this. So if your method left a sound difference, but the method I described show there isn't one then you would be fooling yourself due to variability in your technique. With the method I described you could weed out those that differ and then listen to just those if you want to develop hearing what that sounds like.

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, well since no two mics will ever measure the same then every mic would be off. But how much off matters? One must establish a set of parameters which, if exceeded would be a failure. Those parameters are not definitive and set in stone but rather they are subjective and may be different depending on the application and accuracy needed. So, in order to establish the pass fail parameters that the test mics will fall into along with borderline contenders, one would do listening tests to a wide variety of mics spanning the gammut and then determine what is and is not acceptable and hopefully test every possible variation. This is similar to what we do when testing our pa speakers before and after each show, along with listening tests that often show issues that are not seen by test gear. Or one could establish some relatively simple subjective tests where the issues of concern are directly audible. I understand and respect the desire to cling to visual data and measurements. This is important and also the desire to overcomplicate and create visual representations that are not intuitively correlated to real world results is a very common, but somewhat unfortunate practice. I am not saying that buying, setting up and carrying test gear on tour or to gigs and then listening to the mics afterwards is a bad thing to do. I would say that comparing mic to mic without creating a null, tends to mask the majority of issues and a null test will help hear some of those masked issues. And that having an effective test that requires no added expense, no added gear to carry and can be performed at a gig with a few adaptors may be useful If you have any ideas or suggestions for simple ways to hear actual issues without relying on test gear, that would be awesome!

[@dennismoore1116]

@@DaveRat I'm sorry you don't understand how to do useful measuring tests. The same brand and model of microphones usually do measure all, but fully identical. So close you need not worry about differing sound. I'd post some graphs, but youtube keeps taking them out. I also don't buy into the idea that listening tests show issues not seen by test gear. Further you you write as if you need to bring along some extra test gear. There is only one thing not shown in your video needed to do such testing. A small monitor speaker. One smaller than your box of insulation. I'm guessing you have such a speaker to use. So it is a red herring to speak of hauling test gear around. You already have everything you need. There is also some free nulling software which would take music from recording 1st one microphone and then another giving you the null between the two to listen to and do so more accurately than your method as long as you place the microphone carefully for each recording. That way if you prefer listening to the null you can do so.

[@dennismoore1116]

@@DaveRat drive.google.com/file/d/1s9vuaO17iEJuX0kJGqhhkvHPGCs5_VHy/view?usp=sharing This is three KSM32's covering more than a decade. Will they all sound the same? Yes.

[@Rossgo2]

Many years ago I did a 21st birthday function and I found cake smashed in the grill of the microphone.. it sounded sweet !!

[@DaveRat]

👍👍👍 Ross C

[@tm8473]

i suggest you to test them after removing the grill. The pop/wind screen is made of foam which get soaked and may contain residues of dust or whatever.

[@DaveRat]

As long as you intend on using the same way you test them, that is a good idea

[@2ndyeardrummer]

Yup, I was thinking the same thing

[@Auxknob1]

Great vid… I assume you had a business relationship with Audix to get replacement caps? Is that common place for manufacturers to sell parts? Windscreens sure. But in my world I’ve just gone to Guitar Center or Sweetwater and bought a whole new mic. Are there sources for internals? How many shows did you get off before hearing the fall off?

[@DaveRat]

Audix had maybe still has, a mic rebuild program. I think it was around $75 a mic for a new cap and grill. As far as shows, we would mark mics that got dull, clean them and then rebuild every 12 to 16 hours of usage or so.

[@Auxknob1]

@@DaveRat Wow, every 16hrs. That’s like 6 shows. Makes total sense when your talking about the caliber of acts you supported. And more to think about and consider as I budget for equipment. Sure,,, not as critical as my shows are smaller but so worth looking into.

[@DaveRat]

Yeah, maybe more shows and no mic would see more than an hour a show before getting swapped

[@russellhltn1396]

@@DaveRat I was going to ask if you tried to clean them.

[@DaveRat]

Cleaning mics is kind of like cleaning faders, ya never quite get them to brand new perfect. But some TLC will have them last a long time, but if ya need perfect....

[@imark7777777]

I wonder if some manufacturers designs are more prone to this than others? It's interesting that the highs are the first to kind of go.

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, yes, differing designs will differ. But the highs require fast motions and to do that the diaphragm often relies on being lightweight and non damped. As particles or spit or moisture accumulates is 8ncreases the weight of the diaphragm impacting the HF. If metal particles accumulate, the dia sticks to the magnet impacting the Lowe's. If the vents get clogged, the Lowe's are impacted as well.

[@LasseHuhtala]

Cool, I had no idea it could get that bad.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@GlennAndrewSmith]

Back in the 90's when i was doing local Pub bands i would have to take the lead Vocal mic to the loo and dry the foam out during the breaks to bring the life back to the mics. It is not such an issue now doing corporate bands and things but probably worth replacing one or two mics each year given this can be the weakest link in a very expensive chain !

[@DaveRat]

Yeah! The good ol days! smashing the 58 capsule foam onto toilet paper and a fresh grill does wonders. We would do 2 mic swaps mid show, then let those mics dry with grills removed for 3 days before using them again. Carried multiple sets of mics and after a couple 3 week runs, ship the whole lot back for rebuild and start using the mics from the last rebuild

[@MrAdopado]

Just replace the foam with an unused/fresh dry one. It amazes me that Shure don't sell the foam inserts for SM58s separately ... but fortunately there are lots of other people making them.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@chalandelchalan6326]

Creo que la prueba sería buena con una Y para ver la interacción o cancelación entre los microfonos

[@janm2510]

choice bro!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@InductionHead]

I wacth it now, Indonesia here Dave✌

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@isettech]

Actually if both new mics were identical, they would be different in the test due to the air and chaos of the air when moved. This is part of the live sound that exists when a mono signal is fed to two speakers and is different than using a Y cable to two channels. It will never completely null, not because of the microphone differences, but the air turbulence between the sound source and the microphones. This is the same why smoke rising from incense or other smouldering ember does not rise perfectly, but curels. Same chaos in air flow surrounds your sound source, and so the sound arriving at each microphone will be different. The test if valid as the grill, wind foam, and diaphragm in a microphone pick up contamination that adds weight, and in many cases, is not solid, so has some fluid dynamic damping to the signal. Have you considered washing some of the capsules with glass cleaner followed by a rinse of distilled water? To dry, before corrosion starts, they can be dried by use of a vacuum chamber with a small amount of dry Nitrogen flowing. This will remove all moisture fairly quickly. Try washing and rinsing your capsules and re-testing. Look up and find about a "Cold Finger" for protecting the vacuum pump from the water. If you don't flow Nitrogen, the output of the vacuum pump can become 100% water, so the water has to be removed before the vacuum pump with a cold finger, or Nitrogen needs flowed to carry the water out of the pump as humid air. Look online for using a vacuum chamber and pump for drying critical items.

[@DaveRat]

And also mics that are more closely matched will null better than mics that are not. As far as spending the days off on tour setting up a chemical cleaning station to attempt to try and get mics to maybe get close to being matched vs just getting them rebuilt and factory tested to new, which of those choices do you believe will result in a higher quality and more dependable result? Is an extra mix swap or two and a frustrated singer in front of 30,000 people really worth saving the $60 (at the time) rebuild cost? Every show, allbsightly damages drum sticks discarded or given away, new drum heads even slightly worn, bass and guitar strings are tracked and replaced to insure that they sound perfect and absolutely minimize breaking, but let's wash the only thing the singer has in Windex to see if it will sound ok and hopefully not smell bad? I would say that attention to detail, problem solving and paying attention to the bigger picture are extremely important for achieving success at the top levels with challenging artists that push the envelopes.

[@kevinleblanc47]

@@DaveRat Dave have do you have any Nitrogen or a spare Vacum Chamber ? I miss placed mine... Sounds like he swallowed some bad shit from Augustus Owsley Stanley III. Keep spreading the good word brother.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@delsurmusic]

I never really realized that a mic can sound so much different with the years. Great video Dave! Thanks!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@robertmaune8557]

I have some old dynamics. Is there any way of cleaning them? Some of them are long out of production so new capsules won't be easy to find.

[@DaveRat]

Absolutely taking them apart replacing rotted and damaged foam cleaning up all the excess foam and cleaning the diaphragm if it's not too hard to get to. If you haven't watched them already I've done three or four videos on repairing microphones that would be very helpful for this adventure

[@DimebagDarrenLowe]

so old sm58's and new ones start to sound differently over time. I wonder if a Mic used for human vocals ONLY , never subjected to the high SPL of a cabinet would last longer than one that did a lot of cabinet work?

[@DaveRat]

The opposite. Spit from vocals bad, high spl, no big deal for most mics

[@DeadKoby]

I've fixed a number of mics....... If it's bio-contamination, would not a deep cleaning help things out? (assuming the capsule can be disassembled to that point?

[@DaveRat]

Yes a deep clean will help and no it won't get it back to perfect new, but close. But for pristine perfect, a cap replacement is the way to go. Have ya ever cleaned dirty console faders? If so you know the reality they can be cleaned but never are as smooth and last as long as new ones, even with full rebuilds it's near impossible

[@teddine7366]

Are you touring with The Red Hot Chili Peppers this year. They played at The Dome in Syracuse tonight but I didn't get to go. If you were there I was wondering how the mix went. I've only seen a few shows at the Syracuse University dome but they never did sound great.

[@DaveRat]

I stopped touring in 2017 after 33 years on the road I enjoyed it quite a bit and I've had enough!

[@spatdani]

hey! u know if there's any way to get just the capsule of om7 to use with some shure wireless mic? thx!

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, I could spare one. Send me something that makes me smile and a self addressed envelope

[@TotoSonic89]

I want some capsules! give away time! :P Aguante Dave

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@dougaltolan3017]

"my dog db", why am I not surprised? 😁

[@DaveRat]

DB! His full name of course is Death Biter 2000

[@wilcandou]

What is involved in a rebuild or a reconditioning? Is there solution that's used to clean it whereby you don't damage the membrane ?

[@valleywoodstudio7345]

I added a reply where I got a Shure 545SD back to life by gently cleaning the diaphragm with distilled water. It really may be different scenario for hi stakes, pro large touring though that Dave does , compared to my mic that now only gets used for some recording purposes.

[@DaveRat]

Cleaning the foam is most important as it gets clogged first. Clean water, maybe some non perfumed soap. Dr Bonners is minty but not perfumey. Foam or mesh over the capsuled can be cleaned or dabbed with clean water. For diaphragms, a soft microfiber cloth and clean water wiped. For the bigger tours it's easier and more consistant to just get a rebuild rather than clean all the grills, clean all the capsule cover, clean the diaphragm and then test for freq responce and make sure it's in spec. Also, it really depends on the band and how particular they are

[@banditman142536]

nube question. What happens if you gently wash the sponge in the basket of the microphone that is used. Will that make a difference.

[@DaveRat]

Yes, keeping grill foam clea n is good. Also, spit gets through the foam onto the diaphragm and that is hard to clean and never like new But yes, definitely clean the foam

[@pupdowg420]

When I toured with doa, we swapped out shitheads mics 3 times a night from spit. And never used house mics.

[@DaveRat]

Awesome! Pretty sure we crashed at house where some DOA band were living when I toured with Black Flag

[@ferdinandobarisciano6934]

So, can old capsules be restored to the original (or to a similar) quality? Does we have to absolutely substitute them?

[@DaveRat]

For most things just clean and maintain. For top level acts I treated them like a Formula 1 race. Everything perfect as there are no 2nd chances. The cost of rebuilds is meaningless to the importance of perfection. For most gigs, a cleaned and we'll maintained mix will last years

[@ferdinandobarisciano6934]

@@DaveRat could you do a video about properly cleaning a microphone?

[@DaveRat]

I cover cleaning a bit in some of the other mic videos I have released. Will try and do more

[@magoostus]

would it have been easier to do a sine-sweep in front of a reference speaker?

[@DaveRat]

Probably and then sine sweep and save other mics and then look at the sweeps and guess what the differences sound like. Or do the null test and hear the differences. Whichever you prefer and think will give you a better idea of what the issues are, if any.

[@_a.z]

More of a problem in small venues! = more likelihood of feedback with low ceilings and cramped stages!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@orlarieper6175]

Interesting, But I dont find mic caps as a seperat part ?

[@DaveRat]

No but there are some great 1" or 25mm neo magnet tweeters that would work well for this

[@matthew.datcher]

You specifically called out 16k and 20k. And, you've mentioned high frequencies in past videos. How important are those frequencies? I ask because the biological mics on each side of my head have become dull (to say the least) at those frequencies (and more) .

[@DaveRat]

Great question. The loss of high frequencies in the mic is not directly an issue, not unlike having a car that used to go 100 MPH and now can only go 80. But, whatever is causing the issue is the concern. The loss of HF is an easy way to find if there are issues but the extra weight or buildup of spit that is causing the loss also can alter the midrange and feedback stability of the mic. Things that are much harder to measure. I recommend testing and marking mics, then seeing if the mics that test with less HF also sound as good and are as stable feedback wise as ones that test better. Let me know what ya find!

[@pupdowg420]

Whats your favorite kick drum mic?

[@DaveRat]

Depends on the kick drum and the music and the drummer. I always double mic if possible. If the kingdom is small and tight I'll use an internal mic like a beta 91 and something boomier large diaphragm for the outer or port mic. If the drum is big and boomy and resonant I'll look for tighter smaller diaphragm Mike's or something like an re20 that doesn't accentuate that booming is too much If the kick sounds great I'll look for mic's that are accurate and if the kick is lacking I'll look for something that adds what it's missing

[@dougaltolan3017]

Can the capsules be dry cleaned?

[@DaveRat]

Alcohol swabs and clean water will remove any build up. Clean the foam. For a major tour, the cost of rebuilds is less than the cost of maintenance and rebuilds insure brand new whereas maintenance gets us closer to new

[@TimKaseyMythHealer]

What if you just take a Q-tip and denatured alcohol, or windex and carefully clean the diaphragms?

[@DaveRat]

You can totally do that and get a mic close to new. That said, when the show is for 20 plus thousand people a night and having to do an extra mic swap or a mic getting unstable, paying the $75 to get the mics rebuilt with new caps was the pro choice. That said, for less demanding artists or shows that are not pushing the limits of gear capabilities, or if you are on a budget or for just about any other applications, cleaning the mic diaphragms is the way to go.

[@TimKaseyMythHealer]

@@DaveRat Absolutely, only the best for the VIP! I had three sure 87 A’s on loan to a church for an entire year, and I would imagine they are really bad.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@HazeAnderson]

I have always wondered how much spit builds up in mics ... this is probably REALLY bad when you have a drummer that also sings ... drummers tend to DROOL a lot ... useful for leveling the drum riser.

[@DaveRat]

Well, singers cake up mics pretty well and pretty gross. New grills is a good way to keep things fresh

[@chrisw5742]

@@DaveRat It's the "covid" :-P nooooooot

[@DaveRat]

I am surprised how many gross mics are out there being used. Drummer brings a minimum of sticks, a snare and pedal, usually the whole kit, guit and bass bring their guit and bass and usually thier own amps, singer shows up sucking the spit gel of the last 100 singers on a club mic. Bleh

[@chrisw5742]

@@DaveRat Last time I played out live I ALWAYS brought my own mic for vocals. Sound guys loved me though it was a Beta 57= less feedback with the stage monitor setup they had "side".

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@MyloXylo738]

Why do you always use behringer?

[@DaveRat]

Because I want to show everything can be done on cheap gear and it is the idea, not the gear that matters here

[@piratetreasure]

Dave, when you were comparing similar mics, is this the sort of thing that would be done to create a "matched set" of, say, a couple of SDC's being sold as a pair? I understand that the closeness of the "matching", so to speak, is completely determined by the care of the person running the testing, but would a test like this allow you to find the most similar of a larger group of otherwise identical mics?

[@DaveRat]

Yes, exactly

[@roamershaker]

Yo RAT what it is DoG !!!

[@DaveRat]

🤙🤙🤙

[@RapturesDelight]

Drop the new mics and test them to see what happens.

[@DaveRat]

Absolutely! Before using any mic design for vocals I always do the drop test. If a mic fails on drop, that is a show stopper and not worth using. Before doing sound I worked at Hughes aircraft doing environmental tests including drop tests on missile systems.

[@grantbovee]

Thats a LOT of caps

[@DaveRat]

🤙😃🤙

[@artysanmobile]

My experience using dozens of microphones over a 45 year period has two answers: Do they go bad from using them, singing into them? No. With very moderate cleaning and maintenance, 45 years has not hurt my microphones. Not the U87s, and not the B58s. Do they go bad sitting out in the rain? Getting tossed into a bag during a careless, rushed strike? Riding in a cardboard box on the road with no protection? Unquestionably yes.

[@DaveRat]

The issue we have is sweaty singers that spit a lot into the mics and sing with lips on the grill forcing spit and sweat deep into the mic causing corrosion over longer time periods and dulling of the HF over shorter time frames. Due to spit and sweat buildup on the diaphragm

[@artysanmobile]

@@DaveRat I understand that. As a live recording specialist, I’m rarely giving out lead vocal mics as they almost always come from the RF provider. When I do have to give such a maniac a mic, I will suit up in my hazmat clothing and clean it as soon as possible. I also keep bags of silica gel with my mics. I have a Craftsman tool chest built into a flight case with customized drawers, and every slot gets its own bag right at the capsule end. It seems to delay the inevitable deep clean. 414s get a ziplok with the silica gel bag. I know it sounds like a big pain but it’s really less work than putting them in their boxes.

[@andrew2004sydney]

This is a pretty strange test setup. Why not use a decent speaker with a sweeping tone or white noise and placing each mic in a mic stand in exactly the same position in front of the speaker?

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, well introducing perception, listening position and the frequency response of the wedges as variables is an option and will get you close. That said, listening to all the signal and trying to pick out the difference vs just listening to the differences will often hide issues that may be relevant

[@kippie80]

I wonder how RF-Condenser mikes fair with this kind of testing. they are supposed to be very good for getting wet

[@DaveRat]

The test is easy enough to do, expensive condensers have high voltages and do not like moisture. Cheaper pre polarized electret condensers deal with it better. But condensers have very lightweight diaphragms so the weight of water drops on them will not be helpful at all

[@kippie80]

@@DaveRat Sennheiser appears to be the only company doing the rf-condenser microphones I'm thinking of. Curious to hear some experience with them, are they as good as they sound on paper? BTW: the are in the 4k$ range, pricy.

[@DaveRat]

I don't have enough exposure to them and have not compared them directly. I am guessing that they have some challenfes that differ as all designs come with assets and issues. The high cost and no one copying on what is sure to be a long expired patent is interesting.

[@Scottjcpp]

Why did the dead do that? No noise gates back then?

[@DaveRat]

The did it when they put the pa behind the band. A noise gate turning on and off is really audible, hearing the noise blast and mute everytime someone sings would be a bummer.

[@Scottjcpp]

@@DaveRat Wow. Ok that’s cool!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@games.music.tech.3560]

@@DaveRat to speak to this point, I had a touring engineer in my room recently.... I felt so bad for the band because they were actually pretty big in the 2000s and I grew up listening to these guys... The engineer threw a hard gate with no range control on the lead singers vocals. it was terrible

[@games.music.tech.3560]

part of me wanted to rip this guy off the board and save the singers vocals but as a systems tech on that gig it was not my job to interfere. However, I mixed support (a band I work with often) and everyone in the crowd kept coming by the booth to say "what happened to the sound? the opener sounded so much better" and I just have to sit there and watch this guy have a breakdown...

[@ninjabluewings]

If the mics get that messed up then they must have DREADFUL MIC TECHNIQUE!!!

[@DaveRat]

Well, if the cars get messed up they have dreadful driving technique. That is why the best drivers in the world like Formula 1 drivers always have perfect cars that never get messed up. My opinion is that there are no rules, mic technique is like drinking tea with the pinky up out of fine china. All good for poshy people with crumpets. Also drive exactly the speed limit, eat 3 meals a day at the exact same time and always get 8 hours of sleep, never drink alcohol. Or... It's a rock show, or a crash up derby, art and fun, do whatever ya want and if it involves breaking some cars or mics, all good. The only rules are the ones you personally wish to follow

[@jthunderbass1]

Botton line is, don’t use the same 58 for 40 years.

[@DaveRat]

Or at least only do so it you want the sound to age like the mic

[@Theworkingbassplayer76]

What are you even doing up so late Dave 😴😴😴😴😴😴😴😴

[@DaveRat]

I am in Italy