Do you lack a belief that Zeus exists, or do you believe that Zeus does not exist?

Another question Theists sometimes ask Atheists.
linktr.ee/JimBarrows

[@FreedaPeeple-in2mn]

Too many people do not understand the difference between the two questions.

[@gknight4719]

This problem is easily fixed, teach your children critical thinking, as soon as possible!

[@ysgol3]

Great stuff as always Jim, subscribed - maybe I'm your first Welsh subscriber!

[@serenusedmonds4580]

New subscriber! I love your work!

[@JimBarrows]

Thanks for subbing!

[@RustyWalker]

Well, for Zeus, both! I reject the proposition that it is the case that Zeus exists but I am confident enough to affirm the proposition that it is the case Zeus does not exist outside Greek myth.

[@tinman652]

The more specific you begin to describe the proffered deity like Zeus or Yahweh, the more I feel comfortable saying I do not believe that they exist. Because there are simply more claims to contradict with evidence of reality.

[@someone6170]

I'm assuming it is a misunderstanding that whilst an Atheist lacks a belief in a God or Gods, they can have a position on a certain God or Gods that they positively believe that the God/s don't exist. Most if not all Atheists have not looked into every God that has ever been claimed to exist or every possible claim that could be made therefore they are both agnostic and atheistic about these Gods. However in regards to certain Gods they may have looked into it sufficiently to come to the conclusion/belief that the specific God or Gods don't exist.

[@Thethreethatareone]

The thing that annoys me the most with this question is that often when it is posed the person seems to not comprehend that i can say with some certainty that specific gods do not exist. Say that one is defined with enough things that i can say that at least that specific version does not exist. Other deities however can be inconsistently defined and therefore my certainty that they *dont* exist is much lower. However i can still treat them as if they dont due to lack of evidence that they *do* exist. For instance say someone posits a god defined as one who actively intervenes in the world and leaves a distinct mark when they do so. If that mark is never found in the world then that god can be almost 100% ruled to not exist. However at the same time a god who does intervene but leaves no mark or other way to identify the interference is one i cant say with certainty doesnt exist. In the end, so long as the world shows no evidence of any god or gods, my belief is that i should interact with the world as if there isnt one since my life would remain the same either way.

[@righty-o3585]

I've had people unable to comprehend how i can not know for sure if any gods exist, while also lacking the belief that any gods exist . It makes perfect sense to me

[@noahbodycares3005]

I lack a belief that Zeus does not exist! Checkmate

[@righty-o3585]

Lol That means you think Zeus does exist

[@Foxglove88]

I like Greek mythology I found a book at primary school, trying to read the stories as a child inspired me more than anything else to learn to read & understand them it was great fiction. The Bible, read to me every school day was just mediocre fiction.

[@JustifiedNonetheless]

"Lacking" belief is incoherent. I believe all sorts of things don't exist. I feel no compulsion to hide behind "nonbelief," and I defy anyone to provide either empirical evidence of a distinction in the neural activity that corresponds to ¬Bp and the neural activity that corresponds to B¬p or an independently verifiable means by which to differentiate between them.

[@RustyWalker]

It's not incoherent to say you don't have something you don't have. If you don't believe X, you do not have a belief in X. You lack a belief in X. You do not possess a belief in X. The confusion here is that saying you lack a belief doesn't mean you don't have a stance on the statement _behind_ the propositions. The stance is typically not being convinced by whatever evidence has been put forward to you.

[@izzycrybaby1164]

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

[@righty-o3585]

It absolutely can be .

[@averagebodybuilder]

​@@righty-o3585tell that to donald rumsfeld

[@PhrontDoor]

But the absence of evidence IS sufficient reason not to believe. And a lack of evidence makes it harder to respect those who DO believe.

[@righty-o3585]

@@PhrontDoor I agree 100%.

[@RustyWalker]

​@@righty-o3585Yeah. It needs a "necessarily" in there for the counterexamples.

[@wprandall2452]

Why is it that gods like Zeus with forms never have any proof, whereas the god of the Jews has endless examples of His veracity?

[@JimBarrows]

What do you mean Yahweh has endless examples of his veracity? Do you have an?

[@wprandall2452]

@@JimBarrows 11 Proofs of God - The first Being 1) Elemental logic - We ourselves are proof of God. No entity or thing can give out more than it possesses in store. Or stated another way, nothing can create anything superior to itself. The sun can’t give out more energy than it retains in its reserve. A person can’t take more money out of his/her wallet than is actually in it. In short, how can the universe create what it does not already have the ability to create? We exist, so the universe produced us. The universe must be at least equal to us, and then superior to us because it created us. The life system, then, is a person. 1b) We didn't create ourselves. Our parents procreated us, but their parents procreated them, and theirs them, and so on back through history. This can't however, go on forever, or "ad infinitum." There has to be a beginning to the line of ancestry, due to causality. This infers a person who was not procreated. This we call "God." 2) The nature of the human being to comprehend eternal concepts and values - This is related to Aquinas' 4th law of 'gradation of being'. If there exists in a being something of partial nature, then there must exist somewhere a whole from which the part came; therefore, a being who is of invisible nature, and that is God. What is a collection of molecules doing conceiving of eternal laws and values, and therefore in part being one with them? Laws and values are abstract qualities such as: good, evil, love, hate, truth, math, geometry, etc. We are inseparably integrated with these laws and values - our sanity depends on them. 3) The nature of humans to speak a language. We don't just make programmed sounds, as animals do. We create languages to convey ideas, and intentionally express ideas and concepts in primary sequence fashion, which in language is called a "sentence." The sentence consists of 5 parts: subject, verb, indirect object, preposition (a directional), and direct object. Why do we do this, as if we were part spiritual? 4) The nature of human beings to create "design forms". Other animals create design forms such as nests, holes, webs, beehives, etc. These are all, however, limited and repetitious, as if programmed into the creature, which they are. There are no buildings, sculptures, works of art, or even complex housing in the animal world. But we create all these things. 5) The nature of human beings to create machines - Humans have some ability at this time to create design mechanisms that move on their own, as well as perform programmed functions; a simpler prelude to a living being. It's called AI. But somewhere in the past some type of intelligence created self-replicating machines that think and act on their own. We call them "animals". There are billions of types of these animated forms. Where did the universe get the ability to create them, unless the universe itself is a living "being?" 6) The creation of animals: At some point, someone created living machines called "animals'. Common sense tells us that living things are always created by living things. But we weren't around when animals were first created. Who created us? Evolution explains animals as having developed over millions of years. There are problems with this theory; one being that all creatures are born with brains that dictate mental operating, as well as all behavioral traits of the creature. Another problem is how animals got started in the first place; it’s called "abiogenesis'. The first organisms were single-celled; however; already complete with DNA and working parts. Protein molecules can't account for this. Where is the mind of evolution? What is "chance?" 7) The Creation of Plants. Plants are a completely different phase of creation. They are not mobile as animals are. They are rooted into the soil, and derive their nutrition from water, the sun, and vitamins and minerals in the soil. But they are also designed machines that we didn't create. Plants take in the CO2 that we breathe out, and in exchange give out oxygen that we breathe. The leaves of plants perform photosynthesis, utilizing the sun's energy. This function is a very bizarre aspect of nature; that a creature grows out of the ground and reaches up with leaves to receive energy from something it knows nothing about. Plants have DNA also. How does evolution account for this - Plants remain separate from animals? 8) Primary Particles: The primary particles of physics are themselves proof of God. This is due to the necessity of physics to be generated in a moment of space-time. Particles are definite, finite, and have measurements. Something must then "choose" to bring them forth. Choice is via intellect, and intellect is from, and an aspect of, a being. 9) The nature of humans throughout history to create religion and worship some sort of deity. Why do we worship? There is the exception of atheism, but it is mostly a cult ideology of rejecting God and worshiping self, illustrated by worshiping evolution and science. It is worshiping your own thoughts and beliefs. In effect, it is a pagan religion. 10) The Law of Moses: The Ten Commandments are additional proof of God. There were actually 13 commands given to Israel on Mt. Sinai. The very first one said to have no other gods before Jehovah. Here a monotheistic god provides meaning to the obeying of laws against sin. Israel understood at the time that it was God giving the commands. 11) Jesus the Messiah or Christ: Why should a religion have a Messiah? Of course, Jesus represented God on Earth. But his main purpose for being born into the world was to die on a Cross for our sins. This separates Christianity from all other religions in that the messiah dies for human sins. Did something unusual happen in the Garden of Eden? Did we truly actually disconnect from God? If so, it was necessary for God to save us at a future point in time. Can anyone disprove these proofs?

[@viralsheddingzombie5324]

explicit atheism vs implicit atheism. The problem is, most people don't understand the definition of the word "belief," because the word is connected to their religious schooling that asserts gods and angels and demons are real. People use "belief" very loosely. For example, people often say "do you believe in the Constitution?" Well, the Constitution is written on paper, it is not a belief, it is a tangible object.

[@junkaccount2535]

Technically as a Christian, even I have no problem considering that Zeus and even the whole Greek pantheon, even every god mentioned across all nations may be real. We would consider them demons, half human half god demigod angel offspring who lorded over individual nations which is why so many mythologies exist across the world. Of course, we don’t need Zeus to explain the weather. Elijah the prophet mocked Baal and other Canaanite god worshippers because they were unable to call down fire from heaven like Yahweh did at Sodom and Gomorrah (which we have evidence of archaeologically in dried portions of the Dead Sea with fist sized sulfur balls).

[@jesuslopez-fe7dv]

You do know that sulfur is a naturally existing element right?

[@junkaccount2535]

@@jesuslopez-fe7dv yawn

[@rizdekd3912]

But it would be easy to just say that sure, there are lots of myths surrounding Zeus. But those are just wild made up stories like some of the gospels that have Jesus as a child doing weird things. How do we know Zeus doesn't really exists as a spirit? In which case, he'd be just like the god of the Bible and no one could say for sure he doesn't exist.

[@bubbahottep8644]

Or do you acknowledge that an uncreated creator has to exist, but live your life as if you did not believe it?

[@bobgarrett7134]

Nobody believes in Zeus. People take scoffing to a high level and think they're being intellectual when they're being dumb as dirt.

[@pencilpauli9442]

By Jove's hairy balls Zeus is REAL I tell you. I've seen Disney's Fantasia! What more proof do you need?

[@gl8561]

Let's say I lack a belief in Zeus. There are not enough proofs for his existence and at the same time there are too many proofs to the contrary. But how can I tell for sure? Maybe this lack of positive proofs and abundance of counterproofs are something that we, as mere humans, cannot properly comprehend with our intellect and senses and we are just wrong (if today's theists can use this kind of excuses, so can I). Still though, based on available descriptions of Zeus, I can at least anyhow conceptualize who/what he is. Greek gods in many aspects are just like us, but divine. They speak like us, they eat and sleep like us, they have anthropomorphic bodies. So we can produce just any idea in our minds, what they are. The Abrahamic god on the other hand... He's said to be an omnipotent, disembodied mind. What does it mean to be omnipotent exactly? No idea. How can consciousness exist without physical brain? We don't know. And they say he also existed before time? What? How does it even work? Something existing without time doesn't make any logical sense. And so, as I have never even been demonstrated any coherent description of the Abrahamic god, I find the existence of Zeus much more likely.

[@AbdullahIbnAbdullah-pk1kf]

I don’t find his evidence for the denial of Zeus’s existence to be sufficient

[@gknight4719]

What would then?

[@AbdullahIbnAbdullah-pk1kf]

@@gknight4719 when I go outside and I see lightning in the sky it is proof that Zeus is angry

[@gknight4719]

@@AbdullahIbnAbdullah-pk1kf Good one! Now i know you are just having fun.

[@Nak_Muay_Farang11]

I believe Zeus does not exist. I do not know. I also lack a belief in Zeus because I choose not to believe in Zeus. None of this proves or disproves his existence, nor the existence of any other deity. If any of us are being honest about it, at best, we are all agnostic. Belief has nothing to do with knowledge.

[@PhrontDoor]

Knowledge is justified true belief. Most god definitions are self-refuting OR easily refuted by simple process. Zeus is said to live on Mt Olympus. We know that's expressly not true. We can see the whole of Mt Olympus and know there to be no gods. Nobody can "choose" what they believe. If I asked you to 'believe' that you were a billionaire king living on a moon of Jupiter right now, you couldn't.

[@samppakoivula9977]

At last an honest atheist! You should own what you believe, not hide behind "clever" semantics. I respect an atheist who honestly says that they do not believe than one that lacks believe. Yes, I get it, the lack of belief is probably a counter-move to the "argument" of "atheism takes more faith/atheism is a religion" but I think those atheists who comply to this game just give to the theists precisely what they want instead of just squashing the "atheism is religion" argument as nonsense that it is. Atheism isn't religion - it is a worldview, a way to see the world and reality, but a worldview centered around one thing only (although many atheists are also rationalists, but that is another topic :)

[@MarcoKrieger]

Atheism is not a belief. It's a question to a claim. If a theist proposed any God, defining it's properties and laying out rules and regulations for all of us to follow in order to please this God, it's me, the atheist who asks for the evidence of what the theist has claimed to be true. The default position to every claim is to put the claim to a test. Otherwise every claim brought forward has to be believed without questioning, which would be insane. So, I own the burden to question, I don't make any statements of a belief or a lack of belief. I simply don't believe.

[@JimBarrows]

Atheism is not a worldview. It’s a position on one claim. Just like theism is a position on that claim. Theism is not a worldview either.

[@samppakoivula9977]

@@MarcoKriegerWell, in its core it is question to a claim, or more precisely a counterargument to claim. So technically being an atheist narrows it down to God or god-like beings. So from that perspective fro example anyone supporting New Age could also be an atheist. Or believe in horoscopes, tarot cards etc. However, in practice it is not often so, as atheists are also very often rationalists and sceptics - which is fine by me. So more often than not atheism is part of rationalistic worldview - again, nothing wrong with that, but that is just how it is mostly. However the shadow of that rationalistic and sceptic influence is the belief that one day science can answer rationally to all questions - and that is a belief based on rationalistic worldview, which is also the leeding worldview of atheists. Now, for sure rationalistic worldview gives wider perspective than just seeking all answers from a "holy" book, but the possible downside it is that it may kill imagination as in "Stop dreaming and get real!" - attitude. Of course sometimes that attitude is in order, but as a constant it leads to dystopia, because only dystopia is devoid of all imagination, a constant free-for-all world based only on survivalism. Yes, it is mostly because of rationalism, but atheism is part of it. Now I agree that ideals of religion about God are just plain BS motivated by desire to theocratic political power and personally I don't want that at all. However not all imaginative things and ideals are useless, but actually a neccessity to the thriving of human society. For example art isn't a neccesity from realistic POV, but it is neccessary in order to prevent the downfall of societies

[@samppakoivula9977]

@@JimBarrows Ok, yes theism isn't a worldview,, because it is an umbrella term. However for example monotheism or polytheism ARE worldviews, because they influence how you view to world and how you answer to certain questions about the world, like for example questions about moral/ethics. Atheism doesn't technically give answers to moral questions, but since often (not always) an atheist is also a rationalist their possible answers to such questions are often very pragmatic. No, I don't say one way is better than another, but rather they just have different approach to such questions :)

[@JimBarrows]

@@samppakoivula9977 Again, nope. If I know you're a polytheist, I don't know if you believe only one pantheon exists or multiple. I don't know how those gods influence your behavior or view on anything. The same problem exists with monotheism.

[@philippevie3258]

I believe zues did exsist but wasn't a god just a flesh n blood et aided by an advanced IQ an advanced technologies multi pantheons of gods for different civilisations but ultimately the same beings

[@LuminousInk2012]

As a Christian, Zeus is a Fallen Angel acting as a Demiurge Prior to the arrival of Christ.

[@mostshenanigans]

As a Hellenist, Jesus is a demigod acting as Dionysus prior to the arrival of Apollo.

[@Mickbarrel]

Yeah, in all honesty Zeus was probably a demon if he wasn’t made up whole cloth.

[@LuminousInk2012]

@@mostshenanigans You would think that, but that's why Jesus brought the wine, to dunk on Dionysus. lol Classical period trolling

[@JimBarrows]

Now that's a claim! *LOL* Do you have any evidence?

[@LuminousInk2012]

@@JimBarrows lol, What do you mean, it's a story in the bible about a miracle. Evidence is inherently absent. That's the whole point of the ideas. Elizabeth had John the Baptist Long after menopause... He historically existed and was born of a 70 year old woman. Mary was a 14 year old Virgin. The point of those stories is to book end "Gods" power over reality, evidence is beyond the point. It's just critical thinking stoof.

[@wprandall2452]

I thought this was a question FROM an atheist, since you atheists always say that atheism is not an active belief system. You usually assert that it's just a LACK of belief in God.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

Zeus is real but Yahweh is make believe.

[@JimBarrows]

evidence? :)

[@strappedfatman7858]

All Ancient Civilizations worshiped the Queen of the Heavens God's! The Wisdom of the Apostle Paul was literally out of this World! Lol! When Zeus and Hermes came down to the Earth. Lol! Acts 14:11 When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they cried out in the Lyc·a·oʹni·an language: “The gods have become like humans and have come down to us!” 12 And they started calling Barʹna·bas Zeus, but Paul Herʹmes, since he was taking the lead in speaking. 13 And the priest of Zeus, whose temple was at the entrance of the city,* brought bulls and garlands to the gates and wanted to offer sacrifices with the crowds. 14 However, when the apostles Barʹna·bas and Paul heard of it, they ripped their garments and leaped out into the crowd and cried out: 15 “Men, why are you doing these things? We too are humans having the same infirmities as you have. And we are declaring the good news to you, for you to turn from these vain things to the living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all the things in them. 16 In past generations he permitted all the nations to go on in their ways, 17 although he did not leave himself without witness in that he did good, giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying you with food and filling your hearts with gladness.” 18 And yet despite saying these things, they barely restrained the crowds from sacrificing to them.

[@strappedfatman7858]

Joseph - Imhotep - Thoth - Hermes! Hermes, the Greek god of interpretive communication, was combined with Thoth, the Egyptian god of wisdom. The Egyptian priest and polymath Imhotep had been deified long after his death and therefore assimilated to Thoth in the classical and Hellenistic periods. When the Greeks learned that the Egyptians had a god Thoth, or Tehuti, who specialized in wisdom and learning, they named him Hermes Trismegistus, or “thrice greatest Hermes.” Supposedly Hermes Trismegistus was the scribe of the gods who authored the sacred hermetic works that described the material world as well as the quest for spiritual perfection. Altar and Pillar Isaiah 19:19 Revelation 5:5 Imhotep - Joseph the same person who built the step pyramid. Acts 7:10... God gave him favor before Pharaoh, king of Egypt. God also gave Joseph unusual wisdom, so that Pharaoh appointed him ruler over all of Egypt and put him in charge of everything he owned. The Great Pyramid has 8 sides. The 8 sides represent the 8 kingdoms of the world. Jesus is the corner stone. The last kingdom to rule forever. There is actually ten sides counting top and bottom. First Empire was Nimrod. Who represents Babylon the Great, the Empire of false religion. The bottom of the pyramid is a side. All eight Kingdoms of Revelation ride with the harlot, Babylon the Great. The Great Pyramid having no top corner stone and the top being flat is the Harlot. Jesus is the cornerstone the builders rejected. The Nations would rather follow the Harlot than Jesus. Revelation 17:9 “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. 10 And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while. 11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction. Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them: “Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone. This has come from Jehovah, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits. What does the Sphinx really represent. Because Jesus is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. Isaiah 19:19 In that day there will be an altar to Jehovah in the middle of the land of Egypt and a pillar to Jehovah at its boundary. 20 It will be for a sign and for a witness to Jehovah of armies in the land of Egypt; for they will cry out to Jehovah because of the oppressors, and he will send them a savior, a grand one, who will save them. Revelation 5:5 But one of the elders said to me: “Stop weeping. Look! The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered so as to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

[@strappedfatman7858]

7 × 77 = 539 AD Water Damage on the Sphinx! Jesus is The Lion of the Tribe of Judah! It was known from the beginning! Jesus opens the 7 seals! The altar and pillar! Isaiah 19:19 Revelation 5:5 The Land of Nod, Was the sign of Cain a Lion. Cain worshipped Jehovah God. He offered sacrifices to him. So did Jehovah forgive him by marking his land with the Lion. The Mark of Cain. Genesis 4:13 At this Cain said to Jehovah: “The punishment for my error is too great to bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land,* and I will be hidden from your face; and I will become a wanderer and a fugitive on the earth, and anyone who finds me will certainly kill me.” 15 So Jehovah said to him: “For that reason, anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times.” So Jehovah established a sign for Cain in order that no one finding him would strike him. 16 Then Cain went away from before Jehovah and took up residence in the land of Exile, to the east of Eʹden. Genesis 4:24 If 7 times Cain is to be avenged, Then Laʹmech 77 times.” Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came and said to him: “Lord, how many times is my brother to sin against me and am I to forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him: “I say to you, not up to seven times, but up to 77 times.23 “That is why the Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a king who wanted to settle accounts with his slaves.

[@strappedfatman7858]

Why is 70 AD important! 7 × 77 = 539 AD! Those Who Worship the God of Abraham! YHVH! Yehovah! Jehovah! There was only one true Faith. Paul was in the sect The Way. Paul worshiped the God of Abraham! Revelation 2:2 ‘I know your deeds, and your labor and endurance, and that you cannot tolerate bad men, and that you put to the test those who say they are apostles, but they are not, and you found them to be liars. Revelation 2:6 Still, you do have this in your favor: that you hate the deeds of the sect of Nic·o·laʹus, which I also hate. Revelation 2:15 In the same way, you also have those adhering to the teaching of the sect of Nic·o·laʹus. 16 So repent. If you do not, I am coming to you quickly, and I will war against them with the long sword of my mouth. The Legend of the Sword! The Ice Age and The Great Sword How about the myth of King Arthur after The Roman Empire made Christianity the State Religion. By using their image the Cross and Trinity teaching. Which is sun, moon and star worship. Revelation 17:17 The skies became darkened. In AD 539, the first of three massive volcanic eruptions ushered in a ice age. It coincided with an epidemic of the plague, the decline of the eastern Roman Empire, and sweeping upheavals across Eurasia. The 2nd seal of Revelation 6:5 When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say: “Come!” 4 Another came out, a fiery-colored horse, and it was granted to the one seated on it to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another, and he was given a great sword. 🗡 With the land bridge frozen to the Americas. Britain became the 7th Kingdom of Revelation. So what year did this Kingdom become the Wild Beast with two horns. The false prophet and wild beast arrived with the Great War of 1914. Revelation 13:11

[@strappedfatman7858]

Jehovah God's Spirit Directed World! God's Chariot! Revelation 17:17 Nero of the Roman Empire worshipped the Sun God Apollo! Even if Jesus did not exist they would follow Sun, Moon, and Star Worship! Revelation 17:17 The Roman Empire allowed Christianity but created a Pagan Jesus. Constantine made Christianity the main religion of Rome, and created Constantinople, which became the most powerful city in the world. Historians link the advent of Christianity to Sol Invictus partly because December 25 marked the so-called Feast of the Unconquered Sun before it became officially recognized as the birthday of Christ. The Winter solstice, alternatively called Yule or Sol Invictus, is a pagan celebration Emperor Aurelian established in 272 CE. Aurelian strengthened the position of the Sun god Sol Invictus as the main divinity of the Roman pantheon. He declared Dec. 25 as the birthdate of the “Invincible Sun” and made the day a feast-day. Deuteronomy 4:19 And when you raise your eyes to the heavens and see the sun and the moon and the stars-all the army of the heavens-do not get seduced and bow down to them and serve them. Jehovah your God has given them to all the peoples under the whole heavens.

[@strappedfatman7858]

Trinitarian's follow the Star of David. The same Star the Magi followed. The Tent of Moses is the Tent of David which is the House of David the Samaritan Temple.This is why they worship the Son as Almighty God. Abraham did not worship the Star of David. This is why the Jews called Jesus a Samaritan! John 8:48 MAGI or MAGA Revelation 17:17

[@paulgemme6056]

Without faith it is impossible to please God/Jesus Christ. One must be born again, born of the Spirit (Holy Spirit), born from above. read the gospel of John chapter three if honestly want to know the truth. One cannot know the truth if he or she rejects the truth. Jesus Christ is the truth, the way and the life no one will escape hell accept by grace through faith in the blood Christ shed and the finished work that Christ completed on the cross. The Pharisees were the most religious men on the planet in Christ's day and Christ Jesus told them their father was the devil because they didn't accept the truth even though the truth was standing right in front of them. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

[@JimBarrows]

So what? Is there anything I can't believe on faith alone? For instance could I believe that your a serial killer on faith alone?

[@paulgemme6056]

@@JimBarrows You and I can believe anything we want to believe. It's the truth matters. Believing a lie will only keep someone deceived and the blind leading the blind. Jesus Christ knew this very well because the Pharisees (self-righteous religious fanatics) in Christ's day were so blind to the truth and he was standing right in front of them. Jesus Christ is God. Our only hope of salvation. Only faith (believing) in the blood and the finished work that Christ completed on the cross saves souls. Atheists offer no hope. The world offers no hope. The devil offers no hope. Stop believing the devil's lies and you will find the truth and the truth will set you set.

[@JimBarrows]

@@paulgemme6056that’s not an answer to my question. Faith and belief are not the same thing. Can you answer the question?

[@paulgemme6056]

We can believe a lie, or we can believe the truth. Freewill. If a man believes he is perfectly sinless (without wrongdoing) his actions will prove he is believing a lie. We are born sinners. We are not sinners because we sin. we sin because we are sinners. That's why Christ Jesus had to die on the cross to take away the sins of the world. The spotless Lamb of God paid for our pardon/forgiveness with the blood he shed (precious Blood) on the cross. It is finished, the work is complete. No religion needed. Just faith, faith plus nothing. Just let the pride go and don't believe the lies the world is telling you.

[@billjohnson9472]

" impossible to please God/Jesus Christ. " - why do these entities require pleasing? if they are outside of time and space as many like to say they already knew everything you do from begininning to end, as well as your final fate in hell or heaven at the moment the universe was created or before, right? so there really is no point in trying to please them. Really the story of needy gods that crave your attention doesn't make any sense.

[@mike1967sam]

I understand atheism much better than most I was one for 30 years. You do realize that Christ has nothing to do with Zeus, right? Christ is the best attested historical figure of antiquity. Christianity has more than 5700 manuscripts, from P52 to the Dead Sea scrolls. I hope you find the Lord one day.

[@JimBarrows]

Lol. Wow. Way to miss the point. Copies don’t count as attestations. lol.

[@JimCastleberry]

@@JimBarrows Then you dismiss all historical records that have been copied? Double standard?

[@Kiogleo46]

The dead sea scrolls have nothing to do with Christ

[@JimBarrows]

@@JimCastleberry *LOL* not even close to what I said. *LOL*

[@JimCastleberry]

@@JimBarrows You said "Copies don't count as attestations" in reference to the early manuscript evidence. You are now lying and handwaving. Typical dishonest atheist chump. Feigning laughter and empty denial won't change that fact. You have no excuse for dismissing manuscript evidence because they are 'copied.' Try honesty. Once.