Do You Own Your Games? - Retrogaming Responsibly - Extra Credits

It's happened to all of us at least once. A game that we might have loved suddenly disappears (or is patched out). There's no way to access it or find it... except through roms. That's okay. You bought it once right? That means it's yours! Weeellll... The legal grounds of ownership can get trickier than you might expect, especially as more and more of our media becomes digital exclusive. Luckily we have lawyer Ryan Meyer from the law firm of Dorsey & Whitney LLP (www.dorsey.com/) here to explain what an archival copy really means.
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[@sclair2854]

Legally, course not. But moral right to play the game you bought? Absolutely. Given copyright has been unnaturally horrifically extended by companies like disney, I got no sympathy for companies getting uppity bout ips they're not even using, from devs they long since crunched out of business being distributed by people who actually appreciated the art.

[@nothisispatrick6528]

I completely agree and the prevalence of these retro roms just goes to show how difunctional current copyright law is. Nobody’s losing sleep over not paying for super Mario for a 6th time.

[@larrychilders6599]

Actually Disney didn't extend the Copyright law. it pretty much killed it

[@twilightvulpine]

If everyone fully obeyed copyright, most games would be lost forever simply because the hardware won't last a century.

[@louisvictor3473]

@@nothisispatrick6528 Isn't just current. In spite of the rhetoric commonly associated with IP laws about protecting the interests of creators and blah blah blah, the whole thing was started for the benefit of companies, any theoretical benefit to individuals being a mere by product (which they often try to patch out). Bonus points if you guess who invented that common rhetoric in the first place.

[@Cathowl]

The modern super extended copyright laws are a leech. Originally intended to protect creators it now stifles culture and many modern works of art -- textual, digital, and otherwise -- are being lost because it's now illegal to preserve them. It's bonkers.

[@nessesaryschoolthing]

Libraries REALLY SHOULD have video games as part their circulation. They're part of our culture, they're useful to check out, and they even provide context for other works that are already part of the library (i.e. books, movies, albums that are directly or indirectly related to games).

[@xthomas7621]

kids (and nostalgic adults) go to the library to play video games. Due to the limited number of computers being split between people who need to do important things and 'gamers', people complain. Gaming is now shunted to a small corner. People are borrowing games and never returning them, or exchanging it with a broken copy. Some libraries decide to just make copies of the discs. Companies and lawyers get involved. Should public libraries be allowed to copy old video games onto backup discs? nah jk

[@kilianortmann9979]

I agree completely, but software works differently than books or movies. I can read books from several centuries ago and (with a film projector) view movies from the earliest days of film. But to access old software the libraries would need the matching old hardware as well. An other option would be to change (archive) the game so that it works on modern hardware, but that might be expensive.

[@LamanKnight]

The libraries where I live have started doing this! The difficulty is, most libraries get their materials through donation, so they only have games that have been donated - which aren't many. A lot of gamers will either hold onto old games we don't play anymore, or else sell them. And of course, with more games being distributed digitally, there's no physical copy to be donated. Still, it's a start, and that gives me hope.

[@jackferring6790]

There’s one major problem, you can’t just pick a cartridge and play it. In order to play a game you need a console or pc capable of playing it. And it can be hard to find one, especially as they weren’t made to last. I’m not saying we shouldn’t, but it’s something to keep in mind

[@l0stndamned]

In the UK at least they did at one time.

[@CrimsonBlasphemy]

The fundamental flaw is Copyright length. Should be 14 years, with up to 14 year extension. 28 years AT MOST. Abandon-ware would STOP being a thing.

[@Scarnehu]

Good luck. Disney has paid inordinate amounts of money to extend the length of copyright laws time and time again to save the mouse (and other properties) from public domain. Unless someone richer than disney is willing to step up to bat, we're never going to see copyright lengths shortened.

[@KuraIthys]

@@Scarnehu Yeah... Unfortunately, what seems to be going on is that our legal systems are fundamentally broken/corrupt. The legal system is basically pay to win at this point. both in an immediate sense that you're more likely to win a court case if you have more money... And that the laws themselves are basically written by the highest bidder through corporate lobbying.

[@Calloflunacy]

thank you Disney...

[@timsievers2067]

@Brant Smith, thank you, I was wondering if someone would bring that up!

[@PyroDesu]

I would add a specific provision for abandonware - essentially, if the copyright owner ceases distribution of the copyrighted material, they lose the copyright on that material.

[@roxynano]

There’s a difference between what is the law and what is moral.

[@genentropy]

There is also a difference between what is the law and what is enforceable. heheheheh

[@bevanfindlay]

This is true (of actually a lot more laws than you're probably thinking). But, what is moral or not doesn't come with monetary and other consequences, which is the case for what is legal or not... 😐

[@roxynano]

bevanfindlay I’m aware of that. I am aware of the consequences as well.

[@bsmith6784]

almost always true

[@crazytim8256]

There would not be as much piracy of defunct titles if there were more sites out there like GOG that offered legal downloads of original titles that still made money for the developers/publishers

[@Toonrick12]

Even then, licensed games are in that limbo. Ducktales Remastered only now came back.

[@BigTuk]

This is truth but again... its up to the IP owners. Assuming they even know they own the rights. IP rights can be like those game bundles you buy. You get 200 games in the bundle but are really just interested in 5 and quickly forget about the rest. Thusly the hiolder may not even be aware that they in fact hold the rights. The thing is, gamers, don't have a right to a game the IP holder is not distributing, or does not wish to distribute. Kinda like no one has the right to your cherry ford mustang, just because you're not driving it. Its a sad case, but one that must be honored. That said. More and more publishers are looking back through their IP catalogs. Keep in mind there are some genuine cases where even the IP holders no longer have a copy of the source code.. Developers 20 years ago had no idea people would still want to play those games today.

[@kyr58]

This problem could also be addressed if IP owners didn't sit on their IP like it was a secret gold mine. It's only useful if people are hyped about it, and they can't get hyped if you don't do anything with it or don't allow a community thrive around it. Once people show interest, I imagine it's easier to get funding for projects related to the IP. As it stands, plenty of Characters and IPs that could be ripe for the current nostalgia-driven market are being left by the wayside because the IP owners didn't give it the chance to continue being great outside of it's debut.

[@YourFunkiness]

I've been looking for Black and White for over a decade. Downloaded it illegally, but would have willingly paid decent money for it.

[@illiengalene2285]

Or like Daedalic. I know they have no copy security on their games BUT I want to own their games, because of that additional material. I got 2 poster prints from the game, the soundtrack and some awesome good fluff text in one of them. I know the LPs, I could have played a rom, but because of that little extra effort I bought the game second hand.

[@JCvgluvr]

As a consumer, I personally don't find the conclusion drawn in this video to be a satisfying solution to the problem. I remember calling the people in office regarding Net Neutrality a couple years back. My concerns fell upon deaf ears.

[@hebl47]

Well, ye can always hoist the flag, matey!

[@PlatinumAltaria]

When the law is evil, it is good and just to be a criminal.

[@Elderahn]

True, but approaching lawmakers to change a law is sort of a necessity when the problem is confronting the legal status of the subject.

[@RialuCaos]

When there's money to be made, public opinion isn't going to make a difference. The American law system is just an extension of corporate interests at this point.

[@ChibiRuah]

you are not the only one.

[@KusukusuMonster]

Well of course piracy is illegal but do we care? Not really. If you want to sit on IPs but not allow people to but them or play them, you can get bent. I mean if you aren't selling it, it's not hurting you. Also the fact that you can look back on old Extra Credits episodes where they say "The only legitimate reason to pirate a game (in my experience) is if you can not get it anywhere legally in your country"

[@april5356]

hell i love roms

[@midimusicforever]

Well, they were discussing the legal aspect in this episode, not the moral one.

[@charanth182]

Copyright is important but has become bloated. Sitting on IP and doing nothing with it does nothing to help society, creativity, or economy. Within a reasonable piece of time it should be use it or loose it. Side note: copyright was never intended to be as long as it is either.

[@apiphobixl8228]

The use it or lose it case is why we get shitty remakes of movies that never needed to exist

[@twilightvulpine]

Copyright was originally envisioned as a protection for creators. Now it has become a tool for profit of corporate IP owners, which is often used for cultural suppression, not only by locking away old works, but by giving these corporations the right to shut down derivative works.

[@eldermoose7938]

@@apiphobixl8228 Ideally the market, (ie failing to profit from such works) should stem that

[@xandercorp6175]

@@apiphobixl8228 This, exactly. Christopher Lewis needs to take a look at how copyright holders have responded to such rules in the past, and consider whether he wants the video game industry to reflect that state of affairs.

[@inanefool8781]

@@xandercorp6175 this can be sidestepped by not making remakes a way to extend your copyright of something.

[@TreyaTheKobold]

"we run the risk of losing some games forever" we already have. You should see Ross Scott's review of Battleforge and Darkspore and look at the problems with games focused on central servers.

[@neiana]

DARKSPOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE :'(

[@Zeldon567]

There has been some progress in that regard. Games are being brought back from the dead. The Legend of Pirates Online, Fusionfall, Ascend: Hand of kull, and soon Free Realms have and will be brought back online by talented programmers.

[@accuratejaney8140]

Darkspore has some people attempting to make a server to be able to play the game on.

[@katepeterson5478]

If the "archival copy" thing goes to court, a smart person would probably go "Ah, I put the /original/ away to archive it and preserve it, rather than risk damaging it through constant use, and use the copy - as one might do with an old book."

[@BonaparteBardithion]

This is honestly what I used to do with CDs before MP3 players blew up. Walking was rough on them.

[@zacker150]

If I were arguing the archival copy thing, I'd say that the point of archiving a copy is so that you can use the game if your original copy breaks. Therefore, the right to archive a game implies the right to use the archive.

[@RarefoilB]

Well, this was a pretty fair assessment of the situation, all in all. Saying that yeah, most of this is illegal, but also acknowledging it's the sanest/only way to do this properly. Just a shame the only solution they give is "ask a lawmaker to change the law so it isn't so borked." Ideally, yeah, that'd be how it works, but realistically, even if a lot of us ban together to ask politely very loudly, nothing's gonna be louder than money to a lawmaker. And Nintendo and Disney will almost always have more money. And yes, that is a very cynical/negative way to look at it. To that I say, I'm just looking at history.

[@TheNikoNik]

And unfortunately, very common and (always) very recent history.

[@DragoniteSpam]

5:13 Artists: fancy pen Composers: otamatome Hmmm. 🤔

[@raikuFA]

And Jay Sherman as The Critic

[@ZW_Zacattack99]

1:43; work that is in the Public Domain: Hatsune Miku.

[@Technodreamer]

The answer is: if the law leads to any conclusion other than "yes", change the law, because that law is bad.

[@jwanikpo]

but changing the law is a near impossible task, so people will pirate it anyway

[@ekki1993]

Copyright has not helped the user for a long time now. There's no benefit to the end user in allowing a company that had nothing to do in the creative process to own an IP. There's no benefit to the end user in allowing the creator of something to sit on their IP for several years without producing something. The original point was that a creator had X years before their copyright was lost, in order to incentivize further development of IPs. This is no longer true when an author can hold onto an IP (via their heirs) over a hundred years after their deaths. That doesn't help any end user, and it's not a problem only for games.

[@C.V317]

I wouldn’t say copyright law was made to help users; it would be more accurate to say it’s made to help creators from users. There’s no benefit to the end user in allowing a creator to sit on their IPs, but it does benefit the creator by protecting their work and preventing others from benefiting from something they made without getting something from it.

[@justawhim]

Actually, considering legal costs, you probably can never take advantage or even use any IP protection laws unless you have a lot of money in the first place. Or that the people you are taking to court copied everything word for word, pixel by pixels. So, yeah IPs at this point only allow companies to cement their powers basically

[@RailwayHacker]

There is an error, in some countries (including mine) you ARE allowed to make copies(backups) and or download ROMs of games. If DRM makes the game unplayable the consumer has a right to either make a version that works or seek out versions that do work and still have the copyright from the bought physical version. There still is the limit on concurrent users and if you sell the original you have to delete the copies.

[@Kino_Cartoon]

In which country do you live?

[@Cythil]

And some countries your not allowed to even make a copy for archival purposes. IP law is always complex.

[@REXanadu]

That's an interesting point. A decade ago, I bought a version of Guilty Gear X2 # Reload: The Midnight Carnival for the original Xbox, but it didn't work for it. The only way I was able to play it without forking over a chunk of change - and facing the possibility of that copy not working, as well - was to use a modded Xbox to download the ISO from the disc itself onto the console's hard drive to play the game from the ISO directly. Thankfully, Accent Core is available on Steam (I own that version), but unless I had the opportunity to buy that version of the game, I'd legally have a very tough time playing that game.

[@HorzaPanda]

This is explicitly about US law to be fair

[@HonorguyXNL]

@@HorzaPanda IP legislation is globally almost identical. Though each country does have their own ways. But in the end, it is all almost the same. The biggest deviation however would be US legislation and UK legislation.

[@gdx1037]

"more and more games are seeing rereleases" Pretty sure other companies rereleases, the switch emulation, Wii U emulation and mini emulation still doesn't come close to the library the now dead Wii store had, so if anything, that's the opposite of what's happening. Not to mention those emulators used aren't the best. I bought a copy of Yoshi's Island just to avoid that awful bug in the Get Dizzy level. More needs to be done and I'm really not quite sure why companies don't just sell the roms directly on the internet, GoG style. At least then they'd have a reason to shut down ROM sites, not to mention it'd be the easiest shit to do.

[@larrychilders6599]

*laughs in Uplay*

[@jerichobernal583]

What ever happened to Virtual Console? Dropped for a mediocre Netflix ripoff with less than 1/8 of the games on Wii or WiiU.

[@theawesomeMikeMike09]

Nintendo does not want to legitimize emulators, as their stance on emulators is that they are primarily created and used for piracy. They won’t budge on this point especially, their legal page saying that it’s, “not open to debate.”

[@zapspeed]

Fun fact: it's a really bad PR move for a game company/publisher to go after an individual for downloading a copy of a game that the company doesn't sell. The company also gains little of value from doing so. If you're actually worried about being caught though, then just use a trustworthy VPN. That said, I fully agree with this video. It's better still if people actually speak up about it and get this flawed law changed than just putting up with it and tiptoeing around it. Unfortunately most companies are run by greedy gangs of technically not-criminals according to the exact letter of the law and their team of lawyers, and have enough money to apply political and legal pressure to fight against change that takes protections away from them, even if they're not actually benefiting from those protections 99.9999% of the time. See: The UK having a law allowing digital copies of media for personal use, until our music industry used part of European law to revoke that right. Still as with everything: if you try, you MIGHT fail. If you don't try then you already have failed.

[@filipzawadzki5079]

But VPN only protects you from your ISP, company still can ask VPN owner for logs (logs exist even on "we don't keep logs" kind of VPN's) or company can just track you in places when VPN doesn't encrypt your internet connection

[@slugfly]

Trying to download games illegally is itself a retrogame.

[@MobCat_]

Ahhr The days of going to a rental store, renting ps1 games and then ripping them at home. Good times.

[@Valery0p5]

"Fingerprint archives" like No-intro and Redump are very useful for that! There are a lot of bad rips around in the warez "scene" and having some way to distinguish between them is needed. Usually searching for the checksum of a known good dump is enough to get what you need 😉 and that download would be indistinguishable from your hardware counterpart if you made a copy yourself.

[@MobCat_]

​@@Valery0p5 yeah redump and no-intro are good for older games (nes~ps1) but once you get into modern consoles with anti piracy measures and weird disk formats a 1 to 1 copy of the disk in a lot of cases is pointless.. like if you have a 1 to 1 copy of a og xbox game you are still going to need to mod it to play it or use it in any meaningful way as all the data is locked inside a weird disk format that only the xbox can read

[@kaedesakura9274]

Or dedicates them to the public domai... miku just killed me there but shes proooobably the best example

[@takatamiyagawa5688]

I missed that reference since their art barely resembles the original.

[@jackielinde7568]

Wait! I'm not supposed to get legal advice from cartoons? whaaaaaaaaaa?!?!?!?! But Hanna Barbara and Disney have NEVER steered me wrong.

[@voidsabre_]

I mean, I got my legal advice from Harvey Birdman, Attorney at Law

[@redkingrauri3769]

I'm kinda on Yahtzee's side when it comes to interpreting how game industries tend to treat archival: They'd rather see it die than let you play something older. Given how much the game industry has in the past been so adamant about stopping or getting in on the sale of used games that they already got the initial purchase for, and even now demanding money from a streaming service for games the customer already bought, they don't care about archival. The instant a new generation of consoles come out they seem ready to just toss all that generation's games in a pit and light it on fire rather than attempt backwards compatibility or get a decent library of old games. Remember the debacle with the Vita and PS1 games where they suddenly accidentally released hundreds for the console then pulled them a day later without reason?

[@epickiwi8318]

And what about pure multiplayer games that doesn't have official serveurs running anymore ? Does any game company ever distributed then server software for a game with shutdowned multiplayer servers ?

[@MichaelMoore99]

Yeah, really. Look, I just want to play Star Trek ConQuest Online again.

[@Toonrick12]

That's even more of a gray area since it's only been recently that MMOs have shut down.

[@MichaelMoore99]

@@Toonrick12 "recently" STCO, as one example, has been shut down for 14 years now.

[@c182SkylaneRG]

From what little I've seen/heard, and without doing any extra research, my impression is that they still shut these things down, hard. They don't care about user experience or nostalgia. They only care that they're not getting paid.

[@MichaelMoore99]

@@c182SkylaneRG The ethical and kind thing to do is, if you have to shut the servers down on a game... release the server code. It costs you nothing, but will mean the world to your fans, especially if your company is STILL in business. (And if you're not, then you're just being jerks for no reason.) Just look at the original Half Life. There are multiplayer servers still running and popular to this day.

[@syferpolski4344]

Copyright should be vastly shortened, to 10 years. And the "license a particular copy" BS, as well as the abomination formerly known as DRM should be illegal

[@TheWilldrick]

This is a big issue, not for ROMs or retro gaming in general, but mostly modern games. I can still grab my DOOM floppies, and using DOSBox or any sourceport available, play my rightfully purchased game. Not so much with newer games... Companies nowadays have set up games in such a way they become unusable the moment they shut down their servers. BattleForge and Darkspore to mention a few "paid" games. This is far worse when it comes to Free2Play games, which you can spend even more money that you would on a single title, and yet it's all pulled from you the moment the company goes down (firefall, hawken, blacklight retribution, Evolve, Gigantic, LawBreakers, Wildstar, Nosgoth...). Right now piracy is the only way to get keystone games that are in legal limbo, or that they were pulled out off sale just for licensing being terminated (Deadpool on PC as an example). If you plan on contacting your representative, maybe use this analogy: "you bought a music CD in the 90's and you decide you want to listen to it. You put it on the cd player and it only plays the first 10 seconds of the first track, and then stops, or because it was a compilation CD and one artist decided to pull their permission from it, now the whole CD won't play." That's pretty much how gaming goes nowadays with always-online DRM or the requirement of essencial servers. Also a nitpick/question: 5:10 If I own a cartridge but the console is broken, isn't the unused cartridge the archival copy when only the ROM is being used?

[@1un4cy]

I feel like if a game is no longer sold or available anywhere in the world, it should be considered freeware, since there's no way to give money to purchase it anyways.

[@DragoniteSpam]

So not that I think this is a simple answer, because it's not - legal matters pretty much never are - but I feel like this would be easier if there wasn't _so_ much misinformation about it floating around on reddit and the like. No, I don't have any ethical issues with people downloading games they've legally bought, and neither do most other people I know, but there's a **very big difference** between that and whether or not it's actually legal.

[@Technodreamer]

Answer: end copyright and replace it with something much, much weaker.

[@DragoniteSpam]

@@Technodreamer I'm personally okay with copyright existing, if I make something I don't want to see bootlegs roaming free immediately. Someone really needs to work out what to do with the "there are eight legitimate physical copies of this game in existence in the current day, good luck getting one" problem though. I'm totally fine with paying Nintendo money for Virtual Console games and whatever, but for the most part that only seems to cover the stuff that was already super popular.

[@TheFuriousBrother]

In Germany for physical ROMs we have the right to make safety backups, and use them if the original breaks for whatever reason :)

[@andrewcleary9952]

Yes, I do own my games. Unfortunately IP law doesn't understand that, and is currently wrong.

[@Technodreamer]

Damn right.

[@Mitaka.Kotsuka]

The gam is INSIDE your HOUSE and you can do whatever you want with things inside your house... a law that dosent understand that is not law, is tirany

[@jonathanfaber3291]

3:06 and on that day, gamer kind received a grim reminder...

[@maxk4324]

Me: Hi yes I'd like to speak to my congressperson Congressperson: Speaking Me: Yes I'd like to discuss copyright laws regarding old video games. I was trying to download a copy of some old NES games and.... CP: Woah woah woah. What's this "video" stuff you speak of? I'm pretty busy, so if you could send a description via telegraph that would be swell.

[@bathhatingcat8626]

Copyright should only last 28 years. Companies have lobbied to have this time extended, now its lifetime plus 70 years. Disney played a huge role in this. Funny, cause Disney got started reproducing works like Alice in wonderland that weren’t copyrighted then but would be now. After 30 years people should be able to build off the work of others so that new great works, like those old Disney movies, can be produced. For games, people should be able to take the Mario character now and make new games with that character. This would give us better games and encourage great new IPs like Mario to be created.

[@larrychilders6599]

yeah and it used to be just 70 years, because Disney's own Mickey Mouse almost entered Public domain, but Disney didn't want that, so they added the "Company's lifetime" part of that claim, just so the mouse could never leave

[@bartz0rt928]

This is all well and good but I'd be more interested in an episode on the ethics of intellectual property, as well as of IP enforcement (DRM and litigation) and infringement. Mostly because I don't understand why, for example, Nintendo can still litigate against people who share digital copies of a game Nintendo created 30 years ago and no longer produce for a system they no longer sell, and I'd love for someone to explain not why that is legal, but why it is just.

[@o76923]

There's a very simple answer to that: it's not. Who told you it was?

[@adambanas6365]

Making and selling a video game costs money. Selling a game indefinitely isn't typically very practical. New releases would be competing against those older games and eventually the market demand decreases to a point where it doesn't justify the costs of supplying that game to the market. But that doesn't mean there isn't potential for selling that game again in the future. We see many examples of this via remakes and re-releases, and not just with video games. As a consumer I agree that a lack of accessibility with older games is annoying. But if you think about it, saying consumers have a right to games simply because they are old and/or not currently being produced seems a little entitled. If you want the ethical viewpoint: would it be ethical if I took something of yours because you haven't used it in ten years? It's not like you'll miss it right? This is not ethical because as long as you still own that object the choice of what to do with it is yours. The rights to a game (or any other work) should remain with the creator/owner for as long as the copyright is valid. If consumers had the right to freely make and distribute copies of older games then that would stifle or kill any potential market demand for those games, thus making future releases less viable. Protecting the future value of a creation for its owner is the basis of copyright law in general.

[@neiana]

Wait.. wait.... I have an idea. Let me get KZbinrs to tell you whether they want their videos to be uploaded to other video sharing sites and traffic being directed there instead of here at YT. :P

[@TheGuangmaster]

@@adambanas6365 Those are some pretty poor arguments you got there

[@oo--7714]

@TheGuangmaster you have no arguments

[@Cythil]

Also something to consider. Not all copyright law are the same over the world. As I remember it here where I live there are no archival rights for software. At least when I check the last time with a Copyright lawyer.

[@1un4cy]

People: *downloads a nintendo game rom because it isn't sold anywhere thus having zero availability for purchase* Nintendo: wait that's illegal

[@terner1234]

why are you so immoral? just travel back in time and buy a legal copy

[@squiddu]

3:04 "..From the ORIGINAL Super Nintendo System." *Shows picture of the remodel*

[@TomasLeGamer]

Did anyone see the spooky face at 5:54?

I tried consulting that attorney. He said that not only do I have to prove my innocence against dubious claims but also reveal the true culprit.

[@talbotlynx]

This was a lot more grounded and fair than the yahtzee discussion. Good job. I have to struggle with things like copyright and trademark law as a graphic designer. I appreciate when someone can even lightly touch on the twisting rabbit hole that is legal and moral debate on copyright & trademark law.

[@Senacharim]

Pretty sure IP actually means "Imaginary Property".

[@Shicksalblume]

The issue of losing video gaming history is one that bothers me a lot. During college I helped a professor with the video game section of a class on LGBTQ representation in various media. While I'm pretty sure I went above and beyond what the prof hoped or expected (I think they expected a few characters they could talk about), it was interesting finding some of the information and adding to it. One item that came up, though, was a game called Caper in the Castro, the first LGBT themed video game in history. At the time I was doing this research there were no copies known to exist. Even the game's creator didn't think they had one, and it made me very sad to think about this piece of gaming history being lost forever. Thankfully, Caper's creator found a long forgotten copy just a couple of years ago and put it on the internet to play for free. Even though this piece of gaming history actually has a happy ending, we are losing the history of our medium and we need to do something about it. Updating our copyright laws to allow for something like museums or public libraries for games is a great idea in my opinion.

[@bk-sl8ee]

1920: in future man kind will be living on moon. We will have flying cars. Meanwhile 2020: call your lawyer to own a retro *GAMES*.

[@aidanjackson5084]

Part of this kind of reminded me of things like Internet games, and the potential of losing them once Flash software is no longer supported. Those are a ton of games that we could potentially lose, many of which we have grown up playing in the Computer Lab at grade schools. Luckily, I have heard that some places are working to preserve such games, so that's good to know.

[@HorzaPanda]

If I couldn't play roms there are a lot of my now favourite SNES games that I would never have been able to play :X

[@stefanosstavropoulos8011]

Very nice video! May i ask something? Which program does he use to make this video? Thanks for your help!

[@calvinmartinez3157]

Fun Fact for the Day: WarioWare: Twisted is illegal to play. The gryo sensors built into the cartridges from the original manufacturing run have deteriorated over the years, so nearly all copies are unplayable. And Nintendo has never re-released it, so the only way to reliably play it is by downloading a ROM and playing it on an emulator.

[@dan5827]

1:02 - "HE"S GOT A KNIFE! STILL!" i love it

[@MrInternetHermit]

"..... we run the risk of losing some games, and parts of our history together." Case in point, Civ II test of time.

[@pyrotechnick420]

You got me at the Now thats what I call music gag

[@flysniper]

Hi Arthur! I just wanted to say thanks for giving me your personal game plushy at PAX East. I darted off rather quickly because I was nervous, but I am a fan of this channel and I thought the Extra Breakfast panel was very insightful. The wild berry poptarts was the perfect choice by the way

[@Seltyk]

Considering that US legislatures' only concern with copyright has historically been doing whatever corporations bribe them to do, plus their unwavering lack of concern for civilians, there's a near-zero chance that the law will change. The good news is, the law is just a piece of paper with some signatures on it. Ignoring it can lead to punishment, sure, but there comes a point when my moral code is just incompromisable with the law, and I'll prefer what I think is _right_ to what is considered _legal_.

[@DomyTheMad420]

00:02 JEZUS HELL. way to remind me one of my all time favorite games is dead, and i wil never be able to legally play it again. I miss that Scott pilgrim game... and idk if ps3/xbox360 emulation is even decent these days

[@valpodesideromontoya2097]

Look up "RPCS3" and "Xenia". They are great emulators for the 2006 consoles.

[@jaquessiemasz8650]

Look up Amiiben on youtube. He has a great tutorial on how to get Scott Pilgrim running on your PC!

[@aspenpawarts9333]

Xbox 360s are still readily available and cheap you can pick one up for under 100 bucks easily

[@drdca8263]

I assumed that the answer is “no, obviously that isn’t legal”? The questions are “are you likely to get in legal trouble?”, “Is it ethical?”, and “Is it moral?”?

[@BingBangPoe]

5:13 Gotta love the Jay Sherman cameo there.

If an archival copy is not meant for playing, what is its use if your original copy is destroyed?

[@takatamiyagawa5688]

I presume you were supposed to recreate a playable disk or cart or installation from your archival copy, but no-one has the equipment for fabricating disks or cartridges.

[@kokoskolan2099]

6:03 Lo-fi girl :D

[@ReikaTAKANO]

This need more upvotes!!

[@TheWieldofrost]

Now I hope EC will talk about Warcraft 3:Reforged regarding with the "Custom Game Acceptable Use Policy". I heard some people were angry that they no longer had any ownership of their maps, but I always thought maps made in WC Editor were always owned by Blizzard anyway, since unlike using Unity/Unreal, all the WC3 maps can only be played through WC3. Also, some people said this policy would prevent DOTA ever happen again, something I also don't understand.

[@bala0szoke]

This video just reminded me of how much I wanted to buy Roller Coaster Tycoon 3 and could not do so on steam anymore (it got unlisted). That was such a great game.

[@SilverScreenEssay]

Extra credits: uploads Me: Speed 100

[@unvergebeneid]

Copyright law in the US is super broken though.

[@Toonrick12]

Blame the Mouse.

[@craigwilde2162]

Makes me all the more curious to see how the City of Heroes Homecoming project pans out.

[@StellanQuin]

I love how the timing of this vid matches with the SCP issue with Trademark

[@IkBenBenG]

0:29 I was surprised to see Chex Quest there. That game by the way isn't abandonware anymore. It has been updated by some of the original developers to run on modern systems, and is available for free here: www.chucktropolis.com/gallery/gal_chex_01.htm

[@OGNoNameNobody]

If you PAID FOR the game the company ended up abandoning, the ROM is yours to use.

[@Rehteal]

Something I've been saying for years, if a piece of SOFTWARE (of any kind) is not made available for unrestricted purchase or download from its copyright holder for no less than 8 years, that piece of software (And its derivatives) are to be made public domain. I'm sure more legalese could go into this, but that would be the general idea. There would need to be specifics on what constitutes sale of the software so that a company can't just sell 5 copies and then retain the rights.

[@DetectiveBarricade]

You know your EAs and Activision Blizzards and Ubisofts will NEVER get behind that. They loathe anything that doesn't immediately print money straight into their executives' coffers. They refuse to even acknowledge the long term beyond "road maps" they don't really intend to follow through on.

[@Rehteal]

@@DetectiveBarricade A: They don't have to. That's the point of a law. B: They'll make MORE money by selling legitimate copies of games they're not even selling right now anyway.

[@justawhim]

@@Rehteal Or C, don't spend any resources and still make money based on the passion of the fans of the old games, its less about making money more about getting the most amount of money by applying the least amount of work. As long as they old the IP, fans can only come to them for it, even if they don't play on making anymore games with that IP

[@DetectiveBarricade]

@@Rehteal But it's not ALL THE MONEY IN THE WORLD, so they automatically hate it, and will lobby against the law even coming to pass. That's the ESA's main job these days.

[@DetectiveBarricade]

@@justawhim The AAA industry is far too short-sighted for that, and many of these old games don't feature the recurrent monetization that has grown so disgustingly rampant throughout the industry. It's never been about need, it's about greed.

[@adriannanailo3549]

This is why I love living in Canada. Downloading does not break Canadian Copyright Laws, only distributing does. So the only thing I need to worry about is if the site I used to get the ROMs gets shut down, but of course another one will pop up in it's place eventually anyway.

[@MrSafeTCam]

0:57 CLAIRE SAFFITZ! IN EXTRA CREDITS ART STYLE! I lov her so much

[@MungkaeX]

That “Critic” just made me so happy.

[@k-bomb9777]

That beginning made me die inside

[@yonokhanman654]

I sure am glad that Battle Realms got put on Steam, eversince my CD broke I haven't been able to play it. But now that I got it on Steam, I am finally able to replay the childhood memories I had of Battle Realms.

[@tylerrankin9637]

Hi gang! Fantastic episode which leads me to one question. Would it be possible to create a website that aggregates all abandoned with express permission from the IP owner. The only condition would be to provide games for free that are no longer generating a profit for the company nor helping them to sustain their brand. I know that kind of thing sounds shakey legally, but with the permission/blessing of the copyright owner could the free download of an individual ROMs be made legal?

[@TreyaTheKobold]

these laws are built overtime by corporate lawsuits, and corporations usually win those lawsuits or settle out of court. Preserving art is more important than protecting the IP of corporations. But unfortunately again, since direct art preservation is illegal, distributors are under attack. I miss Pirate Bay; politically organized piracy. Its about the only way to resolve this issue consistently.

[@LC-DDM]

TPB is still around, tho?

[@Tunicofaria]

That Jay Sherman cameo was a treat hahahahaha

[@ChaosRayZero]

3:15 Grinned when I saw Cool Spot and Mario is Missing! 😁

[@ShneekeyTheLost]

Part of this is why you're now seeing re-releases of older games on modern consoles... an example would be the Megaman Series bundle for the Switch. Because they just re-released the game, it also renews the copyright which normally has (or at least is supposed to have) a time limit associated with it.

[@rickhobson3211]

Would be curious to hear your thoughts on what's currently happening with the old MMO "City of Heroes." Shut down in 2007, it recently became known that the game was being run on personal servers. The game has since gone public and is now being played by tens of thousands of people on multiple servers. The owners of the original game, NCSoft, are aware of this and people are wondering what is going to happen next!

[@tipulsar85]

This is even more prertanant for early non DoS and Apple PCs. Trying to play games for Commodore and Atari Computers get really hard for non carts on old systems as Magnetic disks and Tape tend to loose coherency after a few decades.

[@eainen]

Once the AAA industry decides to start paying taxes I'll start caring about legal and moral considerations of pirating their garbage products.

[@aspenpawarts9333]

Espii Ainen you’re trash person

[@Apollo9898LP]

I feel like one potential solution (though it would require a lot of people working hard to make it happen) would be to have video game libraries to archive games just like regular libraries archive other types of media. Heck, just encouraging libraries to start archiving them could be a good start

[@thomasmuller8118]

The right to make an archival copy, also exists in the EU, but only under the condition that the archival copy was needed. Because old gaming hardware tends to stop working after many years, I would say an achievel copy should be rated as necessary.

[@maddie9602]

Ironically, I can neither confirm nor deny that I was playing an emulator of an old game that's pretty much impossible to find these days with this video playing in the background.

[@goransekulic3671]

Man, this reminded me of Colony Wars. Can't we get a new game already, it's such a good series...

[@bass746]

While this was a fascinating video to watch, I wish there was more look at the ramification of repo carts.

[@onimaxblade8988]

This video is quite Lawful, probably Lawful Neutral, if we were to assign it to a DnD alignment, and I respect sticking around there for the sake of the video. But I wanted to just say that... Well... I say Pirate ahoy in a lot of cases.

[@Mikabii]

"Ominous shaky Mario" is my new favourite EC character.

[@0x777]

Another important question in that context (and a possible subject for a part 2 of this): What about game /ideas/? I distinctly remember how Nintendo went after Time Warp over Giana's Sisters which was quite similar to Super Mario Bros. There is no verdict since Time Warp withdrew the title and folded under the pressure, but the topic is a relevant one, especially for indie developers: How "similar" may your title be before you get into trouble?

[@sanneberg1728]

Can you provide a link to who we can call for a law change?

[@ThatFanBoyGuy]

I liked this video just for the illustration puns: well, for example, hard pill to swallow, etc.

[@takatamiyagawa5688]

I liked the visual puns they used to do with random photos taken from the internet... although maybe using them on a fully monetized channel of this size is too legally risky.

[@Flash517.]

CHEX QUEST! Used to play it on our Packard Bell computer, I remember it running so much better when we upgraded to our Sony Vaio with 4gbs of HDD space!

[@west]

I'm from Chex Squadron, and I volunteer!

[@leighdappa]

❗Re-watching this on Fri 15th Jan 2021. 'Scott Pilgrim' is back, baby!

[@hcn6708]

Person: Um, Senator Cantwell? Sen. Cantwell: Yes? Person: Um, could you please…

[@TheCreepypro]

love this I truly hope the copyright laws are adjusted so we can better archive and make older games that aren't readily available easier to play

[@bigtime8806]

In Australia I'm pretty sure we're allowed to rip and use a backup copy of things like books, cds, movies and video games, so long as it's only for personal use and you own the original copy.

[@promommygamer]

Love the 1:00 reference to Claire from the BA Test Kitchen!!

[@RealKaiserRyu]

3:30 not if you have our video’s Sponsor Express VPN to keep your data safe.

[@NoMereRanger73]

I would love to have games at the library, like books or CDs. 💕

[@ImNotAGuineaPig]

Where I live we have. It has been very useful especially with switch games because they are so expensive.

[@SuperScarletspider]

Hey idk if you’re open to making a video of a similar topic, but I would love to hear a more “developer” side to the Exodus of GeForce. The idea of of developer deciding how a consumer can use a legally downloaded game and on an approved platform, when a cloud service is used (specifically hardware related)

[@knate44]

OK, but does anyone know where I can find Dungeon Siege: Legends of Aranna? I bought the main game like 4 different times, but I can't find a digital replacement for my battered disk anywhere

[@ginnyjollykidd]

One thing in end - user - license agreements (EULA's) is reverse engineering. Now in EULA's, they say "You promise not to reverse engineer this intellectual property." but also "any part of this contract that is not enforceable is severed from this contract, subject to local law, and the rest of the contract applies." It just so happens that reverse engineering *is* legal. So you see in your app store plenty of games that are run - jump - crouch - hit/kick the bad guys, gather valuables like coins, and gain power - ups. Very like one of the Mario Brothers games. But different characters, different power - ups, and different scenes are enough reverse - engineering to make it a different game, different source code (the IP you own that you got through examining the game without knowing the source code.)

[@AnonPer]

I think there should be a separate library system set up for electronic entertainment media; not just for games, but also what they were played on, so they can actually be used as intended.

[@eniolotero8808]

Loved the lofi hip hop radio - beats to relax/study to refference (6:04)