When Difficult Is Fun - Challenging vs. Punishing Games - Extra Credits

[@blindbeholder9713]

The job of the game designer is the same as the job of a DM. You're not the enemy of the player, you are there to test them, and to tell their story.

[@oggolbat7932]

I was thinking the same😁

[@littlewolf5136]

Well said

[@rigzmoviediaries654]

Wow, thats going into my gamedev list of things to do.

[@niedersacksen]

Perfectly said

[@figo3554]

Very well said

[@sheepertheclassical6597]

"Your not trying to defeat your player, you want them to overcome the challenge." Something every SINGLE person who plays mario maker should live by.

[@ewegenia]

To put it short: Make it so that when the player(s) die, it's *their* fault, not the game's.

[@ewegenia]

A great example would be Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate.

[@Gang3rs]

+Juju Bee Yeah that is a real good example with all the deaths i had in that game not once did i ever felt like it was the game.

[@IxodesPersulcatus]

It ain't that simple.

[@jmlkhan5153]

It is almost that simple. I would specify the original statement by saying "when a player dies, make it so that it SEEMS like it was their fault, not the game's. Even if it was the games." That qualifier is there because I am a fan of nethack, which is brutal and hard and unforgiving and totally fucking unfair at times, but it always SEEMS fair, to your limited knowledge.

[@sossololpipi9633]

Rimworld.

[@nstrisower]

"You have failed as a designer" should be a meme.

[@OyeBeto]

"If you demand that the player wait through minutes of content they already mastered just to get another chance at the thing they failed at, you have created a game which is punishing, not difficult." Like walking from a bonfire to a boss in Dark Souls? I love Dark Souls but it's definitely both difficult and punishing.

[@Firemalleoandjelly]

+OyeBeto7 Some fire emblem games fit into I have have to wade through 20 minutes of boring, heck at least in dark souls you have be smart to even get around normal enemies so you are thinking about things so it doesn't bore you to death.

[@stephenromero7298]

the goddamn walk of shame to fight gwyn

[@omnisemantic1]

You can get to 99% of the bosses in DS in a matter of seconds from the nearest bonfire....

[@dLzzzgaming]

True, I like that though. Plus eventually you learn the paths and mostly breeze through them most of the time.

[@ФедорВиноградов-ы7ц]

@Jacob Sorensen we can proclaim every frustrating element or mechanic to be teaching patience and modesty. DS1 does not even meet the most criteria from this video, lol. You cannot win fights without learning enemy movement patterns (mage powergame excluded), where is the choice of approach in that? Plenty of "punishing" moments like platforming challenges where you basically fight controls themselves instead of utilizing controls to solve your problem. Basically, Sekiro is much more accessible in all aspects, even by this video's standards.

[@deadmagikarp]

Well cuphead and his pal, mugman, they like to roll dice...

[@coolsceegaming6178]

Dead Magikarp by chance they came on devil’s game, and fu*ked up their whole live.

[@ujangprakoso2925]

packattack: that's cute bro

[@shadowofchaos725]

I honestly found it funny that the Fire Emblem: Awakening segment referred to the thing that people have been complaining about for years in the FE community. The "Ambush Spawns", which also give players the most dread in Lunatic and Lunatic+ difficulties. Great episode as always! :D

[@hugocardenasulloa3334]

Also, there is a "casual mode", and you can save anytime you want and no perma death. Normal mode is like "you have been ambush, deal with it" and normal mode is not made to do a restart if sh*t happens.

[@TheFedoraWarrior]

***** How can you constantly cry foul about people using ad hominem against you while calling them "savage bitches"? And for that matter, then call those same people hypocrites and act like you're above it all when you just...I don't even...seriously, what is wrong with you?

[@TheGreatHammerLord]

***** You need a psychologist. No question abou that. Have a nice day.

[@arvilino]

***** You complain a lot about a game and series you're ignorant about. I mean taking MJEmirzian's intentionally caustic review as fact, when he intentionally overexaggerated his complaints about the marriage mechanic only because he disliked the concept. In other words you've missed out on a great Fire Emblem game and are getting mad for no real reason and lashing out on the Fire Emblem fanbase isn't going to fix anything.

[@AngelicRequiemX]

***** Wow, it's quite obvious that you spend TOO much time on TVtropes by judging the way you over reference tropes in your rebuttal posts. Sadly, it's safe to say that you need to spend some time off the internet and TVtropes and remember how to communicate like a normal person.

[@toddvogel8887]

I actually use Punishing as the good term, and the other is Unfair. Unfair is like what you described, enemies appearing behind you because reasons, that is unfair and not ok, but in Dark Souls if i forgot to raise my shield, i get Punished. Punishing to me means it punishes you for making a mistake, it makes you try again and see if you can do it this time without making too many mistakes, while Unfair is something like a 3 frame instant death attack and then your back to the start of a 30 minute boss fight. A lot of rage games on the internet are Unfair, you couldn't know that spot was a trap until you stepped on it, while punishing would be where the spot had a visible sign that it is gonna kill you but you stepped on it anyway and now your dead. Punishing the player means the player had to do something wrong, unfair means you could smack the player just because you want to. A lot of RTS games will pull some Unfair moments, sometimes it'll be this mission has a unique unit you can use that is really good for this level, but right before the end of the level every one of those units suddenly switches sides and you lost your entire army and you have no time to respond, or you have an ally for the mission until you complete the objective, then without warning they turn on you and their base was right next to yours so now your base is being destroyed and your army is on the other side of the map.

[@henrystickmin3735]

@@SikerScrapyard Celeste for Difficult, IWBTG and Kaizo games for Unfair

[@henrystickmin3735]

Also BOTW and Ori games for Difficult

[@audigamer8261]

IWBTB is unfair too

[@JJ-qo7th]

You're using punish as a verb in a specific context where he's using punishing as an adjective to broadly describe games. Not the same thing.

[@debashisprasadjena5075]

Doom eternal,prey 2017, dishonoured,etc are also great examples.

[@Maplestarknight]

I tried pressing shift, control, w, and e, to try and see how that was difficult. Damn you.

[@EGPrime]

***** Referring more to the fact it closes chrome. It's by no means a difficult combo. Play SC2 at a good level to understand quick difficult key bindings.

[@TomPiddock]

+The_Ideaist Yeah I wouldn't do that if you're in Chrome - it'll close the window :P

[@EGPrime]

just press ctrl shift t

[@TomPiddock]

EGPrime Yeah that's fine, but it's less of a pain to just not close in the first place :D

[@TheReaverOfDarkness]

+The_Ideaist it's easy to press the key combo, but not as easy to press it with one hand. Still, I can do it.

[@Matticitt]

I hate difficulty spikes. I remember this moment in Mass Effect. I played through half the game without dying once. But then, after you save a particular character, you go into an elevator and on the top floor enemies attack you. Not only is it unfair, because there's no time, no covers, and multiple enemies constantly shooting so I ended up dying 30 times, but also the save point is just BEFORE you enter the elevator so every time you restart you have to wait like 2 minutes doing absolutely nothing while the elevator goes up. I recently wanted to replay the entire Mass Effect trilogy and I stopped playing the fucking game after that moment.

[@orenges]

Not only that, but according to logic, Shepard should be dead in canon if shot at with no cover and no time.

[@thanhvinhnguyento7069]

1 hour just waiting. Nice game design

[@DakkaScrappa]

same goes to aces of the luftwaffe the hardest one is ober muller

[@CoralCopperHead]

@@orenges Kinetic Barriers are a thing.

[@paddy7818]

The game was pretty easy though

[@km_studios]

Great vid! I've heard a lot of people complain that games shouldn't be criticized for being too difficult, but the reality is that difficulty is only a good thing if the game is hard FOR THE RIGHT REASONS. Criticizing a game for being hard for the wrong reasons is totally valid. And I think you did a great job of outlining all (or at least many) of the requirements for making a LEGITIMATELY difficult (but totally fair) game.

[@AmeraldFang]

Yet, here we are in 2017 with "Getting over it"

[@theunknowndrummer2972]

Which most would NOT consider fun

[@pringlepenguin2448]

"Buyable pain"

[@adzi6164]

the scariest thing is that that game has actually consistent core mechanics, which means that literally every fail is only a result of player's incompetence

[@Yohan99999]

@@adzi6164 and thats the genus

[@connorconnor2421]

@@theunknowndrummer2972 keyword most

[@spencerj]

DO NOT PRESS CTRL + SHIFT + W IN CHROME! The sliding spin dash also happens to be a close browser macro

[@Volvary]

Spencer Jessee Ctr + W is close tab so yeah...

[@Peter-ft8nl]

but if you put the shift it it closes all tabs

[@egorence2149]

*Egorence learned Ctrl+shift+W *Might be useful later on

[@gnarthdarkanen7464]

Wait up... Can't you customize controls in Chrome? ...pfft... OH YEAH... I have chromium... sorry. ;o)

[@irrelevant_noob]

@Spencer Jessee *slash, see 5:53 :-B

[@orangy57]

I tried Shift+CTRL+W+E... My browser closed.

[@Alpha-ji2im]

+Orangy57 CTRL+W makes the browser close

[@ForestFairy]

+Alpha Only closes a tab.

[@alduinfirstbornofakatosh1936]

Ugh, it did for me too... Coincidence?

[@ForestFairy]

It means you only had 1 tab open :\

[@Alpha-ji2im]

Mokona yea my bad

[@KayoMichiels]

Talk about challenging games... Kerbal Space Program: it's challenging, but so rewarding when you do get it right!.

[@StickmansWrath]

+MK3424 How do I get it right? It's: Your ship exploded! Know what you did wrong? Good. Again.

[@nottherealpaulsmith]

I think it's more punishing hard because when I try it, THE GAME ITSELF LIES TO ME. I'm fucking looking at you, maneuver nodes.

[@Mercure250]

+John Doe ô_o? Don't see where they are lying. I think you just don't calculate enough =3

[@Mercure250]

+StickmansWrath You can quick save, you know...

[@alecdegraaf442]

mechjeb=easy mode

[@fatal_error_3]

Sadly many games reduce difficulty to "only requiring hyper-fast reflexes". A very cheap way to create a challenge.

[@cringyboring]

Exactly. Sekiro is piss easy if u have good reflexes.

[@poopheadtwenty-seven540]

Sonic the Hedgehog, for example

[@sharilshahed6106]

@@cringyboring I wont say piss easy, especially against Mr Chained Ogre's grab attacks. Its more about learning the patterns of attacks and fitting counters, which are a whole tho.

[@carolinacortesmartinez4305]

@@poopheadtwenty-seven540 Not really, since sonic isn't all about reflexes, but optimizing your route with the most speed

[@TheTraveler980]

Or where the enemy is a damage sponge, but also hits harder than a crane with a wrecking ball (and is even faster).

[@MrTombombodil]

The first time I watched this episode I hadn't played Dark Souls so I thought Anor Londo was like, a city in California where they were gonna be at a convention or something.

[@usamahafeez8036]

Hahahaha, lucky you

[@ryanr27]

I was watching this thinking “when are they gonna talk about celeste?” Until I realized: this video is from 2013

[@angelo9604]

the reason i play difficult games is because it feels so good every time you beat a level or kill a boss well you know what i mean

[@nicolebracy6724]

Angelo Sandoval the difference this video is making is pretty much the difference between battletoads and tmnt or gantlet, both are hard, but the latter is hard because you have to practice and become more skilled in you're play style. battletoads just slaps nigh unavoidable death traps into a cramped space and laughs at you. even after beating a level, it isn't satisfying, just annoying.

[@-xiirusthetwat-5481]

Ya brain is releasing some chemical shit thats why boi

[@wiytchery]

Heir of fire destroyed *boner.jpg*

[@xtimes3952]

I introduce you to roblox Arsenal against a pro.

[@strawberrycreekrailroad1404]

Spintires is very hard

[@squeakerboodle]

"Why doesn't anyone make difficult games anymore?" Cuphead: *are you challenging me?*

[@ferociousmaliciousghost]

Covid: *Let's set life to hard difficulty*

[@deinhien7296]

The video was made way before cuphead had even existed tho

[@VikingLord101]

Lol

[@marccox08]

Rayman Origins and Legends are definitely good examples of difficult but fun, since similar to Super Meat Boy it allows the player to see where they went wrong and think of the way around it and immediately try again since it throws them back in so quick. One challenge immediately flows into the next and it never feels too frustrating. They may do the memorisation of the level thing that is discussed in this episode through in the Daily/Weekly Normal/Extreme Challenges mode of Legends, but they did it well since the sole reason was for the player to want to best the scores of others and gain a better payout of Lums for it, as well as improve their skills and reflexes. This game is a great example of difficulty done right.

[@lonestarJimbo]

As a teacher this is how I strive to teach. Not being afraid to fail. And learning and reengaging after a failure with lessons learned.

[@mechanoid2k]

I thought the illustration of evolution was awesome and hilarious. Ataripithecus Pitfallis Missing Link Homo Fordus Croft-Magnon Nathanderthal That'ts actually quite brilliant.

[@ChaosNe0]

If that's what punishing games are, my patience complemented my low skill several times in those. I feel like every game is either too easy or hardly managable. Did you often had that "Aha" experience in games? I only had it sometimes in a few.

[@ChaosNe0]

LeadFaun I mean that most games are either too easy or almost impossibly difficult to me and if a game is too difficult for me I have the patience to keep struggling for a while but it's very rare for me to get interested in the upcoming challenge. I mean: Are you interested in an unsatisfying experience that not even have an end?

[@ChaosNe0]

LeadFaun Oh okay. You know for example in puzzle-games when you have already worked/thought about possible solutions just to see then the rather simple solution? This can - in other forms, for example strategy - occur in other genres too.

[@leo9463065]

ChaosNe0 Being a fan of Zachtronics' games, I have that all the time.

[@sergiowinter5383]

Baldur's Gate, MGS, Fallout, Skyrim, they are all full of aha moments.

[@whythehecknot5038]

only in puzzle games lol

[@ViDEO3meta]

0:35 is simply genius. Great joke, mate.

[@theunpopularcuber9554]

An excellent example of this is Hollow Knight. It is challenging, yet engaging. For the pantheons, it allows you to attempt the bosses without completely restarting the pantheons.

[@Ouvii]

2:38 There were demon crows in the painted world that waited to ambush you when you went for certain items, and you couldn't shoot them even though you could actually get pretty close... the arrow or whatever you shot at them when straight through. :(

[@Vik1919]

I love challenging games because the process of getting better is fun and achieving victories which makes all the time you put into your improvement worth it. Always enjoyed that way and always will.

[@BifronsCandle]

The Fire Emblem example was spot-on. I'm soooooo glad they are removing that same-turn reinforcement crap in Fates.

[@nepnep5853]

In every battle that has reenforcements, someone warns you a turn or two in advance that they're coming. In EVERY battle that has reenforcements.

[@BifronsCandle]

Nep Nep Most of those hints are incredibly unhelpful, considering that they don't tell you the enemy types and fliers can easily reach your army. Most maps in the game have very few choke points and a lot of spawn points. Not to mention that some maps lack warnings altogether. If you want to see what this adds up to, play the tree level and tell me that was fun.

[@nepnep5853]

SlyBiffrons I actually just did, replaying it for the god-knows-how-many-times, and the first time in a solid year. I had no problem whatsoever, seeing as how the fliers spawned on either side are actually WEAKER than the other enemies in the level. One has a short spear, and the other a steel lance. Both weapons are outclassed by the silver weapons, spears, and tomahawks already in the level. And the reinforcements from the bottom of the map should be expected, as that's the only path to the Mila Tree. If they aren't telegraphed, they tend to be a minor threat, like in that level. I for one absolutely love the Mila Tree level. It's not only a fun chapter, but also a great place to summon Risen to train low level Advanced units at later in the game when you're training your side armies.

[@BifronsCandle]

Nep Nep I'm not a fan of that level, especially with the reinforcement falcoknights and those damned counter warriors. It's not like you can choose to aggro specific enemies, so your squishier, less speedy units (at that point in the game, most of your units) tend to die pretty easily unless you take them to a very small, memorized portion in the middle of the map. The fact that they moved on the same turn added virtually nothing to the gameplay but frustration. I don't believe that any strategy game should rely on prior memorization. The best implementation of same-turn reinforcements would be in the Emmeryn rescue level. They spawned in the back, far away from where the action should be, easily caught up (fliers), and were hinted to by a warning ("Wyverns! Cut off their escape!").

[@nepnep5853]

SlyBiffrons Hmmm Were they Falcon Knights? XD Can't remember, could've sworn they were just level 17-19 Pegasus Knights Anyways, your squishier units should always be paired with tanky ones to offset that squishiness, or speedy ones to make sure they aren't hit but once in a blue moon. My favorite combo like that is definitely Gaius or Lon'qu paired with Lissa. When an enemy would hit, they dual-guard. That is, if they survive the initial hit. Pairing units is a necessity to train the squishers. They simply create dead weight otherwise.

[@goosetheft4187]

Dark Souls makes you sit through minutes of content you've already done.

[@justinthompson6364]

To quote videogamedunkey: "Thank you, Dahk Souls."

[@koishiwii8370]

Touhou Project was like the hardest game series from my childhood and it didn't stop me from getting into it though. It was pretty much like some Donkey Kong Country equivalent of classic shoot 'em ups difficulty wise. Thank gosh, I've been able to actually 1cc Double Dealing Character on normal thanks to that flash game gem called Reactance 2 which my cousin had me play mainly for training my danmaku game skills.

[@melissamaitino3481]

One of the most unique games, Super Mario Maker, has a wide variety of difficulty and punishments. You can actually set what the player wants to feel in this game and even play other people's levels. I know this was made in the future, but it has nearly unlimited possibilities. Try it!

[@Bobsican]

Levels in Mario Maker in a nutshell: Easy: Auto levels and short levels with barely any hazards Normal: Same as above Hard: Door of death levels, enemies right on Mario at the start, a lot of parkour. Expert: Invisible blocks, developer exits levels, find the P switch in a invisible block, a bunch of not needed sound effects, double/triple jumping with Koopa shells, Kaizo levels, jump on the falling enemy, badly designed parkour levels.

[@KellySmith555]

This is absolute brilliance! I hope game developers are WATCHING THIS!

[@HNGamingOfficial]

Sliding spin slash isn't hard to execute at all actually. I mean it is initially if you haven't done it ever, but that's what practice is for. It's honestly not that hard. You can also remap your keys...If we're using that analogy, might as well say all fighting games are bad games.

[@theDinosorcerer]

I just ended up mapping the toggle crouch button to caps lock. it ended up making it so that I only had to tap it and then quickly melee.

[@HNGamingOfficial]

theDinosorcerer I mapped my melee to my mouse 1 button, because I melee more than I shoot. My single fire is the middle mouse click and I can rapid fire by scrolling down. I change weapons by scrolling up.

[@theDinosorcerer]

***** i've definitely never heard of that setup before. whatever works, I guess

[@Mastikator]

Also he got the keys wrong in the video. It's W + LShift + LCtrl + E. You can slide your finger from Shift to Ctrl and hit E with ease. The only problem is know how fast you need to sprint before you can slide, but often when I'm in "the zone" I find myself doing slide attacks from less than a meter.

[@taylorfields9200]

The move itself is easy to execute, it's aiming that's hard. I've had some really awesome times doing it though. Right after Melee 2.0 came out I did an infected mission and I remember sliding around and slashing through them and having them fall dead after I'm past. Now I do five runs at a guy to kill him.

[@benmidas]

Just wanted to thank you for all of the advice you have posted on this website. We have put a lot of work into our game LaserChain and used a lot of your advice to help balance the economy, make the gameplay consistent, and not follow the pay-to-win paradigm that a lot of these social games follow. THANK YOU!

[@francie3169]

i would honestly like to argue that fire emblem fates were able to telegraph their reinforcements (for the most part) due to the placement of stairs and specific points where it's quite evident that they will come from. but i will agree that on some chapters the reinforcements were really bad, like the one where you fight on a tree.

[@ReineDeLaSeine14]

Maybe that's why I've done all three versions of Fates multiple times and quit halfway through Awakening.

[@francie3169]

ReineDeLaSeine14 maybe maybe i once bent a stylus in a rage from a bull crap reinforcement

[@Jetajay]

Well, the thing about fates that made it so much better in terms of reinforcements is that they just, APPEAR! Ta-dah! Here we are! And you get a full turn to deal with those enemies you're already facing along with these new punks that've appeared. Shall I continue? Or do I retreat? And Fates also did well with this difficulty curve thing, conquest in particular. It becomes mind-crushingly difficult, yes. And they may be only few ways to get through it. But as long as the player has planned well, it's entirely fair.

[@BknMoonStudios]

I think the difference between good and bad reinforcements depends a lot on whether it's: a) An actual reinforcement. (They appear but they can't attack on the same turn.) b) An ambush spawn. (They appear and attack on the same turn.) If memory serves me right, Fates didn't have ambush spawns at all, while Awakening used them liberally. Sometimes there would be a *_freaking Wyvern Lord ambush_*, by which point you should just "pick a god and pray".

[@MacZephyrZ]

IIRC, the Ice Tribe level in Birthright had ambush units as its gimmick, which was kind of obnoxious, and you weren't able to see the enemies on the other side of a very important door in the clearly poorly-designed-and-rushed Revelations (getting one of my units killed right before the boss fight after the stealth mission they didn't explain was actually one of the worst experiences I had with any Fire Emblem ever), but that's just two instances while Awakening had them everywhere. If I could ignore Revelations with its unfun hard and lunatic modes, I'd say that Fate's difficulty was handled incredibly well for what it is. Classic Fire Emblem, by nature, is a very punishing game, but that gives it the advantage of really raising the stakes and adding some extra intensity to the chances of being killed by that enemy with a 45% hit rate. And in all fairness, if a character dies, you still do have the choice to move on - it's just not usually optimal to go without them, and you have to be kind of heartless.

[@renatoavilasilva7756]

"Or if you demand that the player wait through minutes of content that they alread mastered just to get a chance with thing they failed, you have created a game which is punishing, not difficult"...Well, what about the dark souls bonfire system? You have to repeat over and over the same parts of the game, specially when you're going to boss fights. You die in the bossfight and have to walk minutes to have another try, and sometimes even die in the proccess since the game put a lot of npc's com dangerous spots who respawns everytime.

[@lester6415]

NPCs don't respawn. You're thinking of normal enemies.

[@Yggdrasil42]

LEster Those are called NPCs too. Non Playable Characters. Every character controlled by the computer is an NPC.

[@igiornogiovannahaveadream649]

@@Yggdrasil42 except that they are not characters. A character is something that has relevance to the story/plot. So an npc is something non playable that has something to do with plot. So random mobs are not characters therefore not npcs, just mob enemies

[@mikitz]

The most epic 'easy to learn, hard to master' -game: Chess.

[@AvalonisHere]

Go

[@RodriHermo]

Technically that is the oldest one lol

[@bigsmall2842]

Rocket league is the best multiplayer modern example I see of this. Insanely easy to pick up in play, but the skill gap is ridiculously wide out of any multiplayer game I’ve ever played

[@djk1288]

There's no feeling more intense than starting over.

[@titotitoburg6298]

The iteration time is EXTREMELY HIGH in Dark Souls, and Dark Souls 2 which was my biggest problem with the game design in the Souls series. There were some bosses where if you died on them you'd have a 20 minute run session through 50 enemies just to get back to where you were, and if you died again on the way... RIP souls. The biggest example of this was Seathe the Scaleless, who if you died on you'd have to run through a field past crystal golems, into a crystal cave, past more golems, across tons of invisible bridges, all the way down and through a field of pearl clams before you even get to try again. THIS DROVE ME NUTS, for real what are they losing if they put a bonfire somewhere in between that? Are they really making the game any less difficult?

[@the_snakelicious]

But that's because you chose to fight all the enemies on the way to the boss, you could just run if you wanted to, and you can do that easely for every boss.

[@emanueljuandavid8821]

Tito Titoburg Actually they could fix this really easy but just God damned making enemies spawn at random places making it unique rather than tedious as fuck.

[@MpSniperM1911]

@@the_snakelicious the only enemies i kill in crystal cave is the crabs otherwise i have to kill at least one of them when seath arrives and want to petrify you. Dark souls is FUN (half irony)

[@lester6415]

Yeah, you can just run past most of the enemies and be fighting the Boss in 2-3 minutes, not 20. That's grossly exaggerated.

[@bumbig8255]

casul just git gud

[@rundyftw]

Wow, two egoraptor references? You're bold.

[@ionceateapinecone]

2:45 I'm going to be a hair splitting asshole and point out that the everlasting dragon is technically unkillable

[@MpSniperM1911]

The DS1 one in ash lake?? You can kill him, i forgot how but you can

[@lester6415]

@@MpSniperM1911 Unless you somehow hack the game, no. You can't kill him.

[@wersywerxy]

@@lester6415 From the DS wiki: "Once you have found Kalameet the second time, go back to Gough and talk to him again; he will now ask you if you need help with the dragon. Say 'Yes.' He will ask if you intend to prevail until the end, say 'Yes.' Then a short cinematic will play showing Hawkeye Gough using his bow to take down Kalameet from the skies. Now you have to go to the valley again and you will find Kalameet on the ground, though he will still use some low-altitude flying attacks. You can fight and kill him now."

[@CoralCopperHead]

@@wersywerxy That's Kalameet, not the Everlasting Dragon. I even used the Everlasting Dragon's tail to kill the bastard. Trust me, you can't kill the Everlasting Dragon -- hell, I don't think he even actually takes damage, his tail just comes off when you smack it, and by all accounts, he's fine with it. You don't even get banned from the Path of the Dragon or lose and progress in it if you're a member.

[@lilac9346]

Celeste is another great example of a difficult game that it isn’t punishing

[@jacob1613]

I've always had similar thoughts about the Shovel Knight/Mega Man debate, where players of Shovel Knight complained that the game didn't stay true to the Mega Man origins because it had too many level checkpoints, and that a truly difficult game would have only had one or two save points throughout a level rather than 4 or 5. But when you think about it, that's ridiculous, and totally unnecessary. Since when is re-traversing a part of the level that you have already proven you can pass easily over and over again fun? Wouldn't it be better to start right where the part that killed you is?

[@goorooschlum]

Blaaz101 Double exactly, it even rewards you for destroying them so it's great both ways for many different players.

[@reddragon8167]

Jacob Hanser Also, hard mode!

[@desmondbrown5508]

Jacob Hanser I completely agree. To top that off, I would argue that if you're playing a game and it has good checkpoints it actually makes subsequent playthroughs more rewarding. You master each part individually and put it all together in future playthroughs. A lot of people who argue that these more punishing games like mega man are better forget that you can just set the challenge yourself. No one is stopping them from resetting the level nor is anyone stopping them from replaying the game with a self imposed challenge that they'll never die. I always like to bring it to the attention of those kind of people that some of the best gamers out there (speedrunners for instance) actually play the game all the way through normally, then often abuse savestating on emulators to practice and master sections of a game before going on to do it altogether. If mastery is your thing (as these elitist types claim it to be) it's actually more efficient and effective to practice each part separately first before attempting the game's sections as whole pieces. So in this regard checkpoints are good for that. And finally I'm honestly less likely to want to replay a game after first completion if I know I had to replay an entire level 10 times over for one or two mistakes that I was trying to learn from. Not only because I know I'll have to do that same thing again if I dare to make that mistake again but also because I've had 10 playthroughs worth of experience on that level before I even had a chance to do 1 playthrough of other levels.

[@zaroko8105]

Wow that something I haven't heard of. that is so cool

[@MysteriousAya]

I think the best example of a game that's challenging versus a gaming that's just punishing is Dark Souls vs Ninja Gaiden 2. Dark Souls, as mentioned in the video, is a game that has clear defined rules for both parties. What stuns you will stun everyone. In playing Ninja Gaiden 2 on the easiest difficulty even these basic principles aren't present. I found myself whaling on an enemy's head with the heaviest attacks on the hardest hitting weapon and he acts as if I'm doing nothing, but a simple scratch from the enemy and I'm thrown off my combo and have at least a quarter of my life taken away. This is not fun, this is controller breaking aggravation and on the EASIEST setting at that. I was personally glad to hear when Itagaki relinquished his position at Team Ninja because I thought it would make way for balanced difficult, rather than throwing impossible odds at you and stating "Go for it." I have a scenario; I finished off a boss battle and at the end in an open environment with no potential for cover I see the tell-tell signs of the boss is going to explode. I do my natural instinct; run. I'm all the way at the edge and when the boss explodes, I die. Because of this I had to endure the boss fight several more times wanting to break the controller in half with every second that passed by. I died two more times as a result of the explosion even after strategically placing the boss at one end and running to the other. Turns out, after looking it up, I had to BLOCK the explosion with my SWORD. This is an example of the game not playing by its own rules as in every cutscene involving an explosion Ryu either jumps to safety or flees. It was never indicated that you could block an explosion at any point in the game and it punishes you for not knowing this principle. I'm hopeful that should Ninja Gaiden 4 come out it will be more in line with the style of difficulty Dark Souls presented.

[@Rotciv7777777]

And Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer for the DS comes up in my mind again. It may fail in the "making your player do again what he already mastered", but it's in the nature of the game in a way that... doesn't actually bother me. And that's thanks to the roguelike nature of randomness and every adventure you try again is somehow unique. You should give an good overview in Shiren, guys, I'm telling you haha

[@Pablo360able]

Ah, yes, I love the Mystery Dungeon series. My favorite is the original. You know, Red Rescue Team. Oh, wait, you're talking about Shiren the Wanderer.

[@xuanathan]

We need to mention Megaman zero 1. That game goes from fair difficulty, to walking through a wall to win, to a top contender for "worst boss fight of all time"

[@oonmm]

I remember the first village in Resident Evil 4. Fuck i shit my pants, but i also couldn't quit trying to beat it since it was so awesome!

[@oonmm]

It took me nine years to beat that game by the way. I first got it on PS2, got to the second last chapter and gave up. Then i got the game on PC a few years later, and quit the game at the same exact spot. Lost my save. Then i got the RE4 HD on PC and once again quit trying to beat the game, but this time i didn't get as far as i used to get. A few weeks back i decided to fucking beat that game and i continued from my HD save and fucking did it! I'm so proud of myself! And i love that game! I'm not sure if i want to go for Adas campaign though, it'll probably take me at least 9 hours to beat...

[@zeromailss]

Niskinatorn You should,ive beat the game and unlock every possible weapon,definitely best RE ever,I replay it from start to finish main story and play Ada's one countless time,I even know every single trap and way to die, one of best ps2 game ive ever played in my childhood

[@oonmm]

BlackSkullHeart I belive i was only 12 y/o the first time around i played that game - might explain why i thought that it was hard. It was the very first and only 'survival' game i had ever played at the time. Except for a few minutes of RE3 as an even younger kid, but i had to turn it off before i even got past the first pack of zombies so i don't think that counts!

[@TheExFatal]

RE4 was a shit-show, almost like a railshooter. It isn't hard.

[@imaplaygames633]

the console version of warframe might be easier to do the sliding spin attack since you don't have to reach a finger away for shift, you just have to click the stick in. (shift is run im guessing.)

[@Fledron]

Ima Play Games you don't need a console for that, you just can plug in a controller.

[@imaplaygames633]

Fledron Backenbart bur my comment still stands

[@Fledron]

yes

[@slick571]

Or you can bind melee attack to m1 whip out your sword and go ham

[@imaplaygames633]

Szlovencsák János but how do you shoot?

[@MegaMinerd]

This reminds me of the Halo Legendary mode marathon I'm having right now. I die so many times, but I still play through a few objectives just about every night. (Before you say "that's a marathon?" keep in mind I'm a college senior).Most of the time when I struggle it's because I'm not using the right strategy. Today I was trying to board a Corvette and tried using a force field as cover and try to shoot things in between jumps. When I changed strategies and instead jumped to the bottom and dashed for a short hallway, it was easy.

[@EnergizedGamingGuy]

For the mission Keyes, just grab camo on the left (grunt running away) and go as far as you can

[@Flashboy284]

the library is punishing, and so is all of halo 2 legendary.

[@JammoYT]

The quality of your content has no notable change since season 1. This is actually impressive

[@IMightBeError]

plants vs zombies is a great example of difficulty balanced. you have a lot of plants in the harder levels, meaning theres so many possibilities

[@mep6302]

True

[@TheSkyRender]

The developers of Terraria could leran a thing or two from this. As could the developers of StarBound, for that matter. Heck, just about any "survival/crafting" game development team could learn a few things from this. Especially on the iteration time front. It's not exactly fun to spend an hour gathering resources to make a boss-summoning item, get killed by the boss, and then be expected to go make that item all over again to get a second shot.

[@GideonGleeful95]

Sky Render Not to mention Mount and Blade Warband. It's such a good game when you finally get an army, but good god the amount of punishment you have to go through.

[@desmondbrown5508]

Sky Render Yeah they could. On top of that even the boss designs of Terraria could use some help. The early game bosses are fair for the player, but late game bosses pretty much require gear from grinding more so than actual player skill and understanding of the mechanics. You couldn't beat a single boss past skeletron without using some accessories and armor to speed you up and increase DPS so that the free hits that your forced to take occasionally don't add up over time and so that you take less free hits. All of these things take excessive grinding and worst of all luck to acquire. It's a fun and interesting game but not a very balanced one.

[@VintageLJ]

Randygandalf95 Eh... I would argue that it's pretty easy to get an army. Just go around villages, recruit guys, hunt looters, recruit more guys, sell their loot, and then go and fight sea raiders, wear their armour, and start crafting an expert army.

[@kylewelch552]

I know I'm replying to an old thread but MOON LORD DEAR GOD. multiple hour iteration time including five separate boss-level encounters. For one attempt.

[@lelcetz7628]

OLDIE! anyways doing that event takes 30 mins and it gives you about 3 tries now.

[@mageburger_9551]

"Lower the iteration time" Bennett Foddy: Sure

[@REALSOLIDSNAKE]

Nice video and awesome tips. Loved the Castlevania song in the end!

[@CapitaineToinon]

See you in Anor Londo !

[@lorkhan610]

+CapitaineToinon Haha, I came to this video by chance after I failed a dozen times at the two archer guys in Anor Londo. When he said "I see you in Anor Londo!" at the end I was like "Ho... how... how can he know?!?!" ;D

[@Litrax_]

+lorkhan610 Ohhhh how I hate them ._.

[@karlsargant3985]

"As a designer you are not trying to defeat the player" Toby Fox: Only if you don't kill every monster in the game.

[@thegamer9302]

i like hyper dimension neptunia but they would have these scenes of bossfight, cutscene, boss fight again, another cutscene and a final bossfight with no safe spots inbetween .-.

[@WTFBigboss11]

You mean the True Ending Bossfight in Rebirth 1? I got killed in the last one ^^

[@thegamer9302]

oh you poor person..its every game

[@WTFBigboss11]

The only part where you hat 3 fights without saving is only in rebirth 1 as far as I remember. Are there others? In the other games, there were max. 2 boss fights without saving between. And in most cases, the first fight wasn't that hard. But I agree, that shit became very time consuming when you die in the second one ._.

[@thegamer9302]

megadimension kinda ramps it up in difficulty

[@WTFBigboss11]

Compared to 1 and 2, you're right, but I found Victory much harder (and more punishing because of that shitty regeneration of the bosses) ^^

[@alphadragon601_9]

This is why I love how in captain toad if you die the collectibles stay collected so you don’t wan set time getting them again and instead get further in the level

[@BobMarley-uw9nb]

The fire emblem part didn't really make sense to me. In Awakening, you almost always, if not always, get notification that there are reinforcements popping up soon. If you lost your units to the two people popping up in the corner, it's your fault for not paying attention.

[@pr6800]

extra credits using an egoraptor pic. my life is complete.

[@VitoseGG]

How the hell is Dark Souls not punishing? What about when you get insta-killed by a dragon's fire (which is impossible to see in advance since he shows himself AFTER you die) and then you have to retrace 10 minutes of what you've done dozens of times before?

[@yellowtheyellow]

+VitoseGG Well, that's still in an area of the game were losing your souls doesn't matter much (along with introducing an amazing spot for farming souls early on if you really want). It teaches things like: Environmental noise will be important (the wings flapping) which is used again extensively in Blighttown, for instance and that: environmental details are important (the charred ground) which is pretty important later on in areas of Sen's Fortress for instance. It's like how the tutorial ball trap feels like bullshit but it's there to teach you that yeah, you need to pay careful attention to what's in front of you. It's also worth noting that most characters don't die to the fire in one hit. The amount of time it takes for Dark Souls to teach you about it's rules and the entrance barrier it has in general can turn a lot of folk off, but that entire area is basically just more tutorial, tbh. Also, although I find this choice a highly questionable one that I don't agree with much, the devs expect you to play the game in online mode, where the messages left by other players would help you in cases like that.

[@randomrandom450]

If you can only remember one thing from this video, it's this 6:41 Players must UNDERSTAND what they did wrong so they can improve.

[@j.partition7246]

"See you in Anor Londo"... [Dark Spirit EC_Dan has invaded.]

[@squiddler7731]

6:08 Unless you're designing Sans in Undertale.

[@mathew633man]

i don't mind challenging games.. but i can't stand repetitiveness of RPGs and MMORPGs. i used to be able to spend hours just leveling up when i was younger.. but it gets really old after a while and it gets very boring and mind numbing doing the same thing all the time. if the challenge is like mario, zelda, or metal gear solid where you have use different strategies all the time, then it's very fun and entertaining. but if i have to execute same command every time i have to level up, it gets very boring and i eventually quit after 2 or 3 hours. i can't spend 50 hours on leveling up any more. i want to spend my free time enjoying the game instead of doing same "labor" for hours.

[@Tralfazz74]

That Fire Emblem problem could've been very easily solved with either some telegraphing, ALa: dark energy forming, or with a single use "Undo" button

[@lucasbudega]

This is so applicable to economics / government that it's scary. There's even a branch of Game Theory (economics) which is called mechanism design, that deals with this.

[@nintendoboy3605]

Uh buddy i think you commented that on the wrong video.

[@PupdudePwns]

>Shift Control W E? Shit, that's it? No frame perfect timing or anything? Because if that's the case, I could do that easily. Now, a waveshine, that's harder.

[@mr1234567654321able]

+PupdudePwns Or the Samus super wavedash

[@Paintchipsrocks]

+PupdudePwns Nah, you're also moving quite quickly trying to hit a target as you go, it's harder than it sounds and there is a learning curve, but if you can get it down, it's super good.

[@PupdudePwns]

Paintchipsrocks Not too hard, compared to, say, Dwarf Fortress.

[@Paintchipsrocks]

+PupdudePwns Dwarf Fortress isn't hard, it's fun.

[@PupdudePwns]

Paintchipsrocks When you take the tagline into consideration, yes.

[@reeman2.0]

EC: “punishing games will never succeed” Bennett Foddy: “hold my beer”

[@ogalo1653]

Well, GOI only succeeded because there was a massive "hype-based" advertising machine over it. Everyone played because they either wanted to get views or because their favourite youtuber played it. If it depended on the game itself, it would never have succeeded.

[@orenges]

His audience are a bunch of cringeworthy bandwagon jumpers

[@pinealdreams1064]

Good little example of a 'A-Ha' moment was last night on DS. Could not get Gywndolin, kept teleporting just as I got to him. I went 'seeing as his hits do crazy damage even in my full armour and I'm pretty much dead regardless if I get caught, what if I put on really light stuff so I'm faster?' Worked and I got him.

[@AngellGaby]

They could had mentioned Monster Hunter.. You need to develop player skill not only in game items to defeat harder monsters.. A skilled player with no armor and just a weapon can defeat a monster that a unskilled player with best armor and weapon could not. It gives you a great feeling of improvement and its very rewarding ! :)

[@DaArmoredBear]

I agree, we need to see more Monster Hunter.

[@purplechip8020]

(I don't give a shit if this is 3 years old) YES Monster Hunter punishes you at first but once you learn you need to learn the telegraphs it becomes MUCH easier

[@AzraelXG]

In defense for Fire Emblem Awakening, when the enemy reinforcments appear, there is ALWAYS a moment when the enemy commander anounces it in a exposition sequence, they givyou 2 or 3 turns to regroup and heal, you just need to pay attention and follow the Survivla Rule Number One: Never leave a unit alone

[@DiagonOfLawlz]

Ambush reinforcements are still retarded, especially when you upgrade from Normal to Hard- because, as the video says, that's changing the rules. On Normal, you don't have to care about reinforcements moving when they first appear. Anything higher than that, though, and you get screwed over. Besides, even if the commander does announce that reinforcements are coming, you still don't know exactly how many turns until that happens nor where said units will come from. In defense of Awakening, though, that's just a general problem in Fire Emblem games. Still, never leave a unit alone is a good rule, and for Awakening, never leave a unit unpaired. Seriously. Pairing up wins Awakening.

[@AzraelXG]

Yep, but it's easy to wnow where the reinforcements will appear: in a zone with stairs, le't say a castle, they will be there, in a zone with fortresses (is that world right? my nativ language is spanish..) they will appear there, and in zones with none of them, in the edges of the map

[@DiagonOfLawlz]

Yes, but that's still after the first time you play through a Fire Emblem. For more experienced players who are used to the series, it is less of a problem, but for newer players, they won't be expecting it.

[@AzraelXG]

that's because they have different difficulty levels and the Classic and Casual Mode, a newbie shouldn't play in Hard for the first run

[@DiagonOfLawlz]

And so I return to one of my original points. Ambush reinforcements don't come until Hard(and by ambush I mean they move as soon as they appear), and so even if a player knows when they're coming from playing through on Normal, the player will not be expecting the immediate movement and may lose a unit.

[@subpar7404]

And now people are complaining about Cuphead.

[@BakkerCraft]

I think one of the best recent examples of challenging games that are not punishing is celeste, which takes human error into account when it comes to timing or hitboxes, which truly makes the player feel like the death was from their end, and not the games’ fault

[@phenethylamine91]

Europa Universalis 4. Attack an enemy army in poorly defensive terrain, with better tech, general and twice the numbers? Dice rolls say NOPE.

[@andgames9805]

Yes, a classic. You can have a better tech, army composition, higher numbers, higher morale and discipline, a excellent general and, anyways, lose because the dice rolls. But I'm glad I found other Paradox gamer there.

[@benismann]

Nah, in singleplayer past 1600 dice isn't really "win/lose", its more about "wipe(and win)/win" In multiplayer battles are too large for dice (except if its goes really wild) to make a big difference

[@BlumbleCompany]

Personally I feel like games that are story-driven should be only semi difficult so that the player may get immersed into the experience of the storyline. Games that revolve around gameplay (mostly massive online games) should have a level of difficulty and mastery to them rather than spoonfeeding players the game. Don't get me wrong if a game is good, a game is good. However it would be way more fun if an easy game became more difficult or had a difficulty slider which some games do have as we know.

[@lbscree]

I think story line games are good as difficult because it gives motivation to the player. Of course you couldn't have high difficulty until the player was hooked by the story.

[@siprus]

King Tommy Parrinello In difficult games engaging story is important for the pacing of the game. It gives you interesting breathing room between more hectic moments and servers as reward for playing the game well.

[@GideonGleeful95]

King Tommy Parrinello I think in stories with branching dialogue, those dialogue choices should be hard (at times).

[@jmlkhan5153]

Randygandalf95 your name sucks to type but Fallout: New Vegas is the only game I've ever played where I stopped, saved, quit, and spent a day or two actually THINKING about the choice presented to me, and which direction I wanted to go with it. That's a fuckin' game.

[@Emberrs]

I was actually watching this while shift tabbed out of Dark Souls in Dark Londo off to the archives with this hollow !

[@Brewman1666]

This video perfectly illustrates my experience with Xcom Enemy Unknown vs Darkest Dungeon. I loved Xcom. I failed multiple times but I knew that if I considered my options and planned a little I could beat it. And I eventually did. Very satisfying. My play through attempts at darkest dungeon were so painful that I've just gave up inside. Especially when one of my heroes gambled away one of my most valuable items. Something I got from a boss. And it was never indicated to me that that would or COULD even happen. That's crazy, since good items are some of the only ways I could get my heroes past a dungeon full of blight monsters with high damage resistance without death or literally them loosing their sanity. When I realized that in order to play through the game I had couldn't be invested in anything I quit. Have not gone back to it since. Anyway thanks for this video extra credits!

[@marverickbin]

Celeste is a perfect example as well

[@goodolarchie]

Now I understand why two of the best games I've played in the last few years are Super Meat Boy and Dark Souls..

[@EvilDoresh]

Welcome to the club ^_^

[@EvilDoresh]

***** Praise the Meat :D !

[@EvilDoresh]

***** That's the special message for PETA :3

[@cudgeonkurosaki8489]

The Mimic chest in Dark Souls is somewhat punishing, as there is no noticeable indicator that it will eat you. Good thing that you are close to a bonfire and it teaches you to slay every chest in sight with a different looking chain. Or just strike every chest in general.

[@bradenkowalski8192]

Actully you can see its chain slightly different, and if you hit it, it's health bar shows up.

[@bradenkowalski8192]

+Braden Kowalski although your first mimic is a bug suprise

[@supremeleadersnoke2246]

If you look really closely you can see them breathing

[@nickjohnsontx]

This is still my favorite episode. I was in the middle of my music education degree when it was published, and it was a solid lesson in not punishing students for a lack of prior knowledge - which includes how to behave in your class.

[@TheSullenDude]

"Or if you demand a player wade through minutes of content they already mastered just to get another chance at the thing they failed at", isn't this an exact description of Dark Souls?

[@jadenschalck8640]

"punishing games will never succeed" Anyone who has played the master trials

[@aidanaronoff565]

I'm a big fan of the fire emblem series, particularly awakening, so i feel the need to defend it. What you refer to is ambush spawning, and is a major part of the hard and lunatic mode difficulties. When choosing hard or lunatic, the game does say that ambush spawning will occur. In most ambush spawn situations, enemies appear on forts, but sometimes they'll appear at an end of the map, but on hard or lunatic difficulty they will always move as soon as they spawn no matter what chapter you're in, making it consistent and, as you put it, following its own rules. This forces the player to be prepared for ambush spawns at any moment and not leave a weak character undefended creating more depth to the strategy. Essentially, the game conditions you to be aware of the possibility of being ambushed at any moment and to work around that. Furthermore, the addition of casual mode, which removes perma-death from the equation, gives a more forgiving learning curve so that beginners can work their way into the series. Lunatic mode, from my perspective, was made for the hardcore fans who enjoyed the outrageous difficulty and consequential proof of tactical prowess, that came with Hector Hard mode in Fire emblem 7, or Fire emblem Thracia 776's entire existence. You brought up the example of failing a level and thinking something like "what if i wall jumped?". I believe that ambush spawns in hard mode do the same thing, it makes you think, "ok, better leave Frederick with Lissa in case of ambush" and it rewards you for thinking that way so that you can identify plausible places for enemy reinforcements to appear in later chapters and either block them to make the chapter easier, or exploit them for EXP. Plus, the map skirmishes make it so that if you play it right, you'll never be behind the enemy in stats.

[@OSoverspike]

Punishing games in a nutshell: Congratulations, you failed! ...want to waste your life trying again?

[@Essutos]

"Punishing game will never succeed" *laughts in geometry dash that does everything you said devs shouldn't do*

[@offandsphere6788]

*travel levels intensify*

[@alexbaker1569]

No I think geometry dash is in the same lane as super meat boy, where the quick speed offsets the constant retryies

[@offandsphere6788]

@@alexbaker1569 not all the meat boy levels are over a minute long tho

[@ohfivohsixohone]

I dono man, trying to beat dark souls with a keyboard makes it pretty punishing.

[@gerritdeman6410]

+ohfivohsixohone Once you get used to it it isnt that bad though :P the only thing which always sucks is the lock on. They fixed it in DS2 though.

[@ohfivohsixohone]

+Wouter van den Broek yeah it gets kinda better, but there's still times I want to lobotomize myself.

[@jpmmm333]

+Wouter van den Broek O&S was a bitch with no lock on, but you get used to it... I think DS2 made too depend on lock on. I went back to DS1 and my camera kept going mad as i instinctively locked on. On the other hand DS2 guard breaks and jump attacks are incredibly frustrating with keyboard and mouse....

[@gerritdeman6410]

jpmmm333 yup, recently started playing ds1 again and I managed to beat Ornstein second (which I hadn't done before) and I actually did quite well without lock on. it also was a very enjoyable fight! :D

[@enman009]

+ohfivohsixohone Well, i play without the mouse (witch is almost useless in DS2), and i actually have 4 year playing that way. Is mutch easier to move the camera and dodge imo. Try it without mouse.

[@TheOrangeType]

I Shift+Ctrl+W+E'd and the Ctrl+W shut down my browser. I am an idiot.

[@GabrielPiveta]

Minecraft is punishing when a creeper explode in back of you

[@TheCrippledWerewolf]

Love the video. But, other than obeying the rules described, Dark Souls has many punishing moments. Areas where enemies push a boulder down the stairs onto you or hit you with a wall of deadly fire after 20 minutes of play. Where enemies ambush you from both sides at the end of a long, difficult battle. Ghosts that cannot be killed unless you use a specific item, but that item stops spawning, so you have to "run by" an entire level. Those are serious exercises in confusing frustration. It's "enjoyable" in it's complete and utter disregard for the player's sanity, but requires memorization and experimentation that can take hours and hours with no forward progress and long bouts of iteration. Great game, but frustrating nonetheless for the reasons described in the video.

[@leandromafe]

yeah, I agree, by the criteria estabilished dark souls is very punishing.

[@DiagonOfLawlz]

Dark Souls telegraphs itself, though, and after you do admittedly get beaten in the face early on, the game expects you to learn from that. It's still punishing, but I personally find its punishment fair.

[@DoomBringerDANTE]

Dark Souls telegraphs all of what you were complaining about. You see the bolder and hear it before it has a chance to hurt you (Unless you look away/have volume too low), the bridge is covered in ash and charred remains (Aka the warning saying fire bad, fire go here, not to mention you hear the drake), you can hear enemies, and there are multiple items to hit ghosts. The Transient Curse tells you that you must be cursed, use a cursed item, or use Transient Curse to effect the ghosts. Which means Artorias Greatsword, the weapons the ghost drop, and the frogs. Not to mention besides buying Transient Curse, the ghosts actually drop the curse themselves. It doesn't require memorization, it requires patience and a cool head.

[@DiagonOfLawlz]

Exactly.

[@TheCrippledWerewolf]

DoomBringerDANTE . Truth. It does telegraph it's cheap tricks, and you do become better as a player because of it and adapt. But if that was all it did, then I'd agree. But, it promotes "open" progression, which is great and also punishing. Every area of the game is difficult, so a new player has no way of knowing if the way they are going isn't "correct" and leads to a dead-end. 5+ hours of journeying into the XP-less Catacombs, only to find a dead-end after the Tomb of Giants. Nearly stopped playing there. This game is made for Nintendo Power-esque cheats found through wikis and walkthroughs, which I don't like using. Luckily, I've played Silent Hill games before so running past enemies makes sense, but I beat Dark Souls and never made the connection between curses and Ghosts. Never once parried an attack. Hit a merchant by accident and they perma-hate you. It's either restart or ignore it and that is frustration.

[@jahstafari2937]

Punishing games will never succeed, then they made Flappy Bird

[@jahstafari2937]

Fair enough

[@golfer435]

Clearly he's not counting fire emblem

[@the_snakelicious]

Mobile games aren't real games though.

[@Underworlder5]

+Felipe Rodrigues mobile games are real games (does a game have to meet specific guidelines to be considered "real"?). the thing is, most of them are just not worth spending time on. there are good mobile games out there, just overshadowed by the sheer amount of half baked money grabbers

[@mwep415]

I want to weigh in a bit and say I think I would have switched the way you define each "difficult" and "punishing". To me, punishing means that the difficulty is a punishment for something the player did, while a difficult game has arbitrary difficulty spikes. I would call Dark Souls punishing, because while the game is possible, there are no arbitrary difficulty spikes, but the game harshly punishes players for being too reckless, not checking for traps, or making a mistake in combat.

[@nicolasinguanti9986]

6:09 Troll level makers on Super Mario Maker 2: 👁👄👁

[@jrjuggalo159]

I don't know man. Dark Souls 1 and 2 is pretty fucking punishing and it sells amazingly.

[@magmaslug9305]

Didn't he just explain why it's hard, not punishing?

[@jrjuggalo159]

magmaslug Considering your first fight in the series is a boss with a crazy amount of health who can one hit you, even if you figure out the tricks, it's pretty punishing.

[@The_Hanged_Man_Arcana]

jrjuggalo159 The first boss takes 2-5 direct hits to kill you, you aren't supposed to fight it the first time you see it, and you are able to if you choose to make a stand. Dark Souls makes you think logically about killing your targets, not just smashing a button until you win. And the first boss is literally hit it, then get out of the way. The game doesn't send you back very far ever, you just lose your humanity and souls. The souls you can even re-collect.

[@scourge7373]

1) your first fight is a bunch of undead 2) the first encounter with the big guy isn't a fight, you're even told to go to the left door 3) you're obviously not dodging or blocking, or you failed to get your gear from the very beginning because he's pretty easy if you pay attention. The game does a great job through npc dialogue to warn you which path is a dangerous one, traps are never unavoidable if you look, and the game gives you enough weapons, merchants and blacksmiths to upgrade yourself properly

[@ThePineappleKnight932]

You sound like you have half a brain about this game, how do i beat the ghosts that appear at the area with all the undead and that blacksmith dude?

[@NimhLabs]

To be fair: Fire Emblem as a series traditionally has the "have units show up behind your lines" mechanic. Usually with stairs, opening in forests, castles, villages, oceans, etc. being possible locations for enemy units to come out and tear you a new one. So for new players, having monsters show up suddenly after the mission begun is a bit discerning, for those of us who have played a while are like, "FUCK YEAH! I WAS PREPARED FOR YOU BITCHES! I KNEW SOMETHING WOULD SHOW UP THERE! MY MOST KILLABLE REQUIRE RESOURCE WAS STANDING THERE IMMOVABLE! SHEER SIGN SOMETHING WOULD SPAWN THERE TO KILL IT FULL OF DEATH! HAHAHAHA! I BEAT YOUR STUFF!" As much as Fire Emblem: Awakening seems full of "unfair mechanics" the mechanics are rather predictable and pedestrian as far as the rest of the series goes. To the point where standard concepts such as "LOL Weapons Triangle", "KILLER OF ARCHERS Pegasus Knight OF DEATH FROM ABOVE" and "LOL Dodging Myrmadon" show up a lot sooner and easier in Awakening. There is a moment for playing Fire Emblem games when your Pegasus Knights can soak up a single arrow of damage (and live) that you start jumping around like a baboon making animal noises and screaming "FLORINA HAS BECOME LIKE UNTO SHIVA DESTROYER OF WORLDS!"... or when you realise your Lord Unit, with a bit of level grinding becomes your localised "walking tact nuke unit" (especially Lynn, Erika and Hector)... that Fire Emblem becomes one of those games you play because you have realised how easy it is to create campaign solutions that are the in game equivalent of yelling, "WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW, BIOTCH?!?!" I'm by no means an expert either... I have yet to complete Awakening on Lunatic/Classic mode yet. Most FE experts can do that in their sleep. I'm still trudging along trying to get any distance in Lunatic/Classic... and grinding in Hard/Classic, as honestly I don't really care about getting to the end of a game. I mean... let's be honest, finishing a game really isn't the fun part. It is figuring out playful self expression within the game. I really want to unlock Lunatic+ mode... and get it so my street pass has the little difficulty level of Lunatic+/Classic on it. So that everybody knows to avoid eye contact with me... so I can substitute conversations with people with me writing an MS Office replacement entirely in BASH (what? Like you'd NOT just assume I'd do that with a street pass that says Lunatic+/Classic). And yeah, I am one of those gamers that immediately try the game on one of the harder difficulties. My first attempts where with Lunatic/Classic mode... after many many issues playing the game, I turned the difficulty down to Hard/Classic. But yeah... the complain of "enemy re-enforcements showing up behind your lines" is more, "this happens in Fire Emblem. Your keikaku* needs to include these" (*Translator's Note: Keikaku is Japanese for plan)

[@NimhLabs]

***** That is FE *_Fangirl_*... meaning I also create ships for characters and write terrible horrible YAOI and YURI for the various characters. It mean with a bit of practice I could pwn people with it, while describing my various OTPs and reading entries of fan fiction I have made of various characters in the game. Sometimes the fan fiction doesn't include sex... as a fangirl I will choose to abstain from reading those entries instead opting for the more juicy ones.

[@NimhLabs]

***** Really? I find running into other fangirls really easy. It mostly requires finding the areas where KZbin crosses over into Tumblr. Also: make up tutorials... and stuff about drunken lesbians talking about sex... Jenna Marbles is gay, right? I mean... outside of my dreams, right? Only in my dreams? Well damned...

[@7ambris]

I have to disagree about one bit though. While enemies spontaneously showing up on parts of the map is traditional FE gameplay, it is not traditional that they get to move on that very same turn. In most FE games, the enemies show up at the end of the enemy turn. This provides the player with at least a chance to react. It's an extra challenge, but it's generally fair. Whereas on FE: Awakening's harder difficulties, these enemies spawn and move all at once. When you're first playing a level, it's utterly maddening and frustrating to have them take out 2 or 3 of your squishy characters before you get a chance to react. It is simply unfair and unfun, and forces the player to memorize the placement of enemies by round, which makes on feel less like a master tactician, and rather just a machine. That's my 2 cents.

[@NimhLabs]

7ambris Take out 2? or 3? Of my squishy characters? Why am I not doing a soft reset after the first... Or in the case of Miriel "drop kicking my 3DS across the room reset" when she is taken out... I mean--it is only a couple of the games that don't do that (we've only had a couple of the games released in North America)... and Awakening isn't even that evil with it. When Geneologies/Holy War (whatever) does it... the enemy reinforcements are more than the amount of units you could place on the map ignoring any fatigue issues you might have to worry about. Though... the Jugdral(sp?) is the "earliest era" and the fight is expected to be far more "epic" at that result... with it ultimately being the war that has peace being an option people vie for in the later eras that the games follows (such as Marth's Era, and Ylisse's Era). Even then... grabbing a few of the Japanese Only ones... and applying at translation patch (I HATE THE SNES/NES JAPANESE FONT SETS! I'D RATHER STAB MY EYEBALLS OUT THAN TRY TO NAVIGATE THOSE FONT SETS!)... and yeah. I think part of the reason those weren't released here is it was hard to figure out how to make the game less difficult and yet not lose anything major. I imagine the American Release of Holy War would reduce the enemy armies from twenty-five down to like... two. Oh... and an American version of Tracia 776 with the difficulty slide down... would... great... now I have my nightmares set up for how much that whole game would be completely removed the whole point about. Fifth paragraph as four paragraph... oh right... Tracia 776 was traditionally what Fire Emblem fans called "Lunatic+/Classic Mode"... on its normal difficulty level.

[@NimhLabs]

***** I think there is a reason that Awakening took so much from FE4 in how it worked and functioned. Having had the Ellibe and Tellius series allow us to have a variation of the Akaneia series get... well... one remake actually showing up here. Oh... right and the single Grado game. Which could allow the Merkan Audience be introduced to some stuff already well known/loved by the Japanese series. Isn't there suppose to be two/three games to every location on a system? Wait... not... the Awakening DLC I suppose could be its Thracia 776... but... yeah. But yeah... it would be nice to see more of the series make its way over here... or at least have Japan make enough remakes that I wouldn't have to put up with the old Japanese font sets. Seriously... so much hate for those. That is why only the NEETs played video games for so long.

[@lmmortalZodd]

:O The world is a shitty game

[@DerpTrollson]

+Imortal ZoD the graphics sux

[@metumortis6323]

+Imortal ZoD Also it's full of random kills and you only get one life

[@Hitsyfication]

There's no way to know the rules or the goal, yet there are 7 billion players making whatever moves they want. If you lose too much, or win too much, there are penalties. You can't pass your turn, and if you talk too much, you'll be ostracized. There are no parameters and no way to even know the genre. This world is just...a shitty game.

[@lmmortalZodd]

Hitsyfication *Highfive! You sir, are watching some good shit ;)

[@wisemantellsyousomething1134]

Most important, you can not save! That is, what I really hate... :(

[@cameronstewart6636]

As someone who is not very good at video games, I have often wondered what should be done about difficulty. I think maybe having easy, normal, and difficult games is fine, but I also think it would be cool to have a game with many difficulty variations; so much so that you could basically choose how hard the game is. An example of how this might work is a map with easier zones, then casual zones, then difficult zones. At the beginning, you can choose the mastery level: tutorial (not to be mistaken for the tutorial mode also offered), easy, normal, hard, brutal, insane. This way, while the story and controls might be the same, or close to it, people playing an easy level on tutorial are playing a different game from those playing a difficult level on insane. It's a tough balance, because on one hand, a game that is too easy is boring, where one that is too hard is frustrating.

[@cameronstewart6636]

Another variation is minigames, Starcraft 2 has an arcade in the Hyperion. I'm sure there are many other examples.