Does Bill Belichick have anything left to prove after 25 years in New England? | NFL | SPEAK

[@SpeakOnFS1]

Check out Club Shay Shay: foxs.pt/shayshay

[@randomupdates4013]

Dave Helman that is all

[@CedRockStarr]

If Bill Belichek was a Running Back or a Black Quarterback, he’d be unceremoniously cut or fired by now.

[@spiritualarchitect4276]

Bill Belichick still has to prove that he can win a playoff game as the Jets head coach : )

[@crashHypnotize]

The reason why I give Brady more value. He was not expensive compensation wise, and the offense Brady led kept defensive units on the field a very long time and the defense played limited times while being quite talented and commonly shorter times on field than their opponents. Brady is the culture and system.

[@williamli6200]

I bet Belidick didn't even know that his defense was WORSE THAN PACKERS defense on total yards allowed.

[@pnwguy00]

People need to remember how dominant those Patriots defenses were in 01 and especially 03, 04. Tom was great but didn't do anything legendary to win those Super Bowls. Those defenses gave up > 14 points on a BAD day. As the league evolved, the script flipped, but Bill still gave Tom a top 10 (usually top 5) scoring defense every single year. Tom winning with an insanely loaded super team doesn't change any of that. How'd Tom look in 2022 when he didn't have perfect protection, a terrible head coach, and a defense that couldn't stop any good offense. Took him only 3 years w/o Bill to have a losing record; and he only advanced past the divisional round ONCE in Tampa, after 8 straight years of AFCC games in Foxboro. All things being equal, they needed each other.

[@williamli6200]

@@pnwguy00 WTF? dominating but needed Brady to delivering winning drives in big games? dominating but needed Brady to score 24 or more in back to back playoff games? BTW, Brady delivered 5 comeback wins in 2003, and 3 in 2001, the reason they got first round bye. So stop the BS.

[@Alex-sf9bo]

@@pnwguy00 belichick is under 500 with his defense without brady so no

[@sanketpatel9866]

Only Acho and Shady make sense here. 5 years ago Belichick and the Media sold such as u can put any QB in some magical offense BB hosts in NEP and win even more than Brady as Brady was just a product of him lol. Even BB tried to blind side trade Brady and Gronk. He isn't anything without Brady. It's been 3 years and you can't discount his trash Coaching prior to Brady either. I understand that a combo needs to happen to win long term but I see no reason why Brady and Reid or Payton couldn't have been together and won 7-9 rings. Reid is a GOAT not BB. Brady at age 43 went to a new team, new "system" they still won. It's very hard to win Superbowls yes, but Brady is a GOAT so it was always possible yearly for him.

[@markusmolnar7218]

The Popovich comparison was spot on!

[@erictalbert4633]

Great comparison. I use to say that because Pop always had He’s guys.Duncan, Parker,Ginobili. Belicheck had Tom Brady & associates. And when together they win chips

[@mitchwilliams-fj2bi]

I use it all the time

[@Pluto24]

It’s a great comparison but what I don’t understand is, is that not every great coach tho? who has won multiple championships with no star player…? It’s never been done but we still seem to pick and choose which coaches get more or less credit. Shady brings up Reid all the time and I’m like bro he had to draft an immediate top 10 Qb of all time to get his first ring wtf are we talking about here, he didn’t win with mcnabb or Vick or Alex smith. Shannahan for as great as he is offensively and a great defense, still would sell his soul for a star QB right now.

[@eaglesman19]

​@@Pluto24omg thank you! Lol I've been an Eagles fan for 18 years make no mistake Ried is a not a bad coach by any means he is a good coach. But his championship success is a product of his QB not only did Ried not win a ring with Vick, McNabb or the other QBs you mentioned but he couldn't win it with Foles either. Dougie P did though in his second year as a head coach and before Ried. Dougie P proved that it wasn't the QB it was that Andy isn't that good of a HC.

[@broderickcrawford8110]

​@@Pluto24 Joe Gibbs won 3 Superbowls with 3 different QBs and none of them are in the HOF....hold this L bro

[@LordCornholio31]

Another thing they didnt mention about Bill Bilickeck was how good he was at bending rules without breaking them, like when he played against the jets and kept running out time with the punt formation penalties..

[@Speedyreedy1218]

And the Ravens with lining up OL in TE position as eligible receivers. See 2015 playoff game and Brady in the post game conference: "It's not my fault they didn't read the rulebook."

[@robertsuchy2369]

@@Speedyreedy1218 I hated when they changed that rule that you have to report as a eligible receiver

[@zerotolerance923]

He did break rules

[@Speedyreedy1218]

@@zerotolerance923 No he didn't.

[@djroberts6792]

Because they don’t have the knowledge to no that.

[@shawngillespie3532]

Andy Reid…despite his flaws is willing to change and he develops QBs

[@DCL-1992]

I greatly enjoy these debates! As much as I like Skip and Shannon, I feel like they are more entertainment than the well balanced team here! Great stuff guys!

[@mannycalavera2335]

My take: The fact that Tom was still one of the best in the league at what he does, went to the playoffs AND won a superbowl with a different team does prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Brady did not need Belichick to be successful. Whether the other way around is also true remains to be seen.

[@madman1840]

Not how that works. Brady wouldn't be who he was if it wasn't for bill belichicke.

[@trey740]

@@madman1840 thats cap tom brady wouldv'e still be tom brady if he got his chance

[@madman1840]

@@trey740 no he wouldn't have. His first 3 superbowls all came bc of how good the defense was. Honestly 5 out of 6 patriots superbowl were bc of how good the defense played. Butler cuaght a interception that gave brady another ring and the superbowl against the rams was 100 a defensive game. So bill belichicke is responsible for 5 of brady's rings minus the falcons superbowl.

[@trey740]

@@madman1840 LOL what the offense was just as good as the defense bill is not responsible for any of brady rings brady made bill who he is and without brady hes mediocre

[@cristiangomez4537]

​@@madman1840 I like how people say 03 that sb was a shootout

[@jamesjack7074]

Slick and Joy are saving this show

[@megatran2556]

I call him the chubby dude. Haha.

[@randomupdates4013]

I prefer Dave. Humble and nuanced football takes.

[@tmoney4204]

​@@randomupdates4013 can't stand him he always agrees with joy

[@THABOMB98126]

The show would be great without Shady to me

[@maverick33guy95]

​@Milos Marinkovic Dave makes the show better

[@Zdub212]

Facts: 2021 Patriots record was 10-7 (10-8 after blowout playoff loss) 2007 Patriots went 18-1, not 19-0.

[@BigDilf3]

I hate acho but he probably meant 16-0

[@jacobcage8633]

Well Greg Poppovich hasn't done much without Duncan.

[@kevingeorges1160]

He had more than Duncan bruv.

[@maverick33guy95]

It's almost like coaches don't win without hofers.. difference here is that bb put the team together too

[@Alex-sf9bo]

@@maverick33guy95 rexy Ryan wonn4 playoff games without brady

[@maverick33guy95]

@@Alex-sf9bo did he win a sb? No.. keep it moving

[@gunmonkey6545]

Good debate but BB’s defenses were also responsible for SB losses. He gave up 44 points to Foles while Brady threw for the most yards in SB history. Brady put them ahead in the last minutes of both losses to NY and BB’s defenses gave up TD drives to Eli.

[@deonterector]

The second super Superbowl against the giants Brady last touchdown was very early in the 3rd, Those were the last points got out of that game.Patriots defense can only hold up for so long and the drive before eli came in the clutch it was welker that drop the ball and on 3rd down Brady threw behind deion branch.

[@dougvuillemot8670]

Not to mention him not playing there best defensive player vs the eagles. That choice cost them that game.

[@Karnakthemagnificent]

@@deonterector Branch was running into the defenders, I tend to think it was a misread where Brady thought Branch would cut it off and Branch kept running. As for the Patriots defense, all year long they were a bend but don't break defense that gave up tons of yardage, in the Superbowl the time of possession for the Giants was nearly double that of the Patriots offense who could not get on the field. Can't score points if you don't have the ball.

[@Franzel527]

this is why I love watching their show.. thank you for pointing out about how the 2008 patriots others are always giving bill praise that they still went 11-5 that season without brady but they always just stop there and always leaving out that the same team was 16-0 the year prior so with tom brady theyre a +5 team and -5 without him that's big if there's only 16-17 games per season.. if the 2007 pats went 11-5 or 10-6 then theyre gonna look much worst the next season without brady going 6-10 or 5-11 in 2008

[@Franzel527]

ofcourse belichick is a HoF coach specially as a defensive coach but people needs to start thinking that maybe he's not the greatest coach of all time

[@andrewillis4141]

I appreciate Slick and Joy so much on this one! The game has changed to offensive dominance! Brady definitely deserves most of the credit because coaches don’t play but to pretend those defenses and offensive lines didn’t contribute to those super bowls is asinine! Brady won a superbowl without Bill because of a stacked roster and a perfect opportunity.

[@jaywashington7225]

But how good is a coach if they can’t evolve

[@reekybaby5223]

Bro be quiet Tom was New England end of story 🥱

[@tonyortiz3350]

Stacked roster? Nobody was even thinking or even remembered the bucs existed before Brady got there. I will always like bill but Brady was the team period

[@williamli6200]

The team built by Belichick wouldn't have won a single SB with any other QB, because the talents he put around Brady wouldn't be enough for other QB to do what Brady did.

[@westside5953]

@@williamli6200 stop it drew still coulda did that

[@TheInfiniteNow]

When Joy Taylor mentioned the Patriots solid offensive line, the bedrock to a Brady-led offense, a shout out needed to happen to Dante Scarnecchia the greatest offensive line coach in NFL history only adding to the argument with his 34 seasons coaching the Patriots predating the arrival of Bill Belichick & needing to be brought back after retiring because of how valuable his coaching was to the organization

[@Sea_Stallion]

Slick and Joy are straight cooking on this segment

[@sim396]

Bill has unable to draft offensive skill players.

[@diegomagellan]

Exactly

[@soda8736]

Best QB ever and Best TE ever.

[@prestigev6131]

@@soda8736 Is currently unable to draft offensive skill players

[@coreythomas3633]

BEST QUARTERBACK EVER AND THE BEST TE EVER GRONK

[@peteasarisi2536]

He drafted two SBMVP receivers Branch Edelman & two rb who set SB records for receptions

[@jaayjdouble_1887]

The hate is in the air ,Those who don't have hate😂

[@kingkoopa2831]

If Brady was just a “product of Belichick’s system” then Bill should be able to draft any QB and do what he did with Tom. However he can’t. It was Brady

[@dantheman8152]

Joe Gibbs is the greatest NFL coach. Won three SuperBowls with three different QB's!

[@jmannx21]

I'm glad to hear somebody say the AFC east was not what it is now

[@davis2k1234]

Brady went 4-0 the AFC east in 2021 but keep going w that narrative Brady would still be running that division if Bill didn’t throw him out the back door

[@satchelthomas8425]

​@@davis2k1234umm ur wrong sir 2021 brady was on the bucs and got swept by the saints for the second yr back to back regular season

[@davis2k1234]

@@satchelthomas8425 I didn’t know the Saints got moved to the AFC East Brady went 4-0 VS Bills Pats jets dolphins in 2021

[@satchelthomas8425]

@@davis2k1234 oh ur a troll I didn't think that was still a thing

[@df6148]

A new kingdom can’t say look at the past 25 years of the old kingdom. Especially when your most renown Warrior/Leader is gone. Also, Shady made a good point about Andy Reid. As for Bill, needs a legit QB to run his sophisticated offense. And 7:03 Joy is right about Bill/Brady. But To Bills credit, he believed in Brady when nobody else did. Also, Andy Reid might find himself in the same boat as Bill is right now. One day they might say, what has he really WON 🏆 without Maholmes.

[@mrmack1988]

Nah, we know McNabb choked in that super bowl

[@df6148]

@@mrmack1988 facts but you could make an argument that Bill has never let a lockeroom divide a team. He’s dealt with killers, divas, role models, gangstas, family guys, 1 year mercenaries, cast off vets, etc…. And they never skip a beat. That Eagles team fell apart after the TO/Mcnabb divide. There’s a lot more between the numbers for bill. But it’s hard to remember until we remember.

[@SlyScribeV]

I especially despise the Reid mention. It's become more and more clear that people want to see Reid become the GOAT coach one day instead of it being Belichick's title.

[@mrmack1988]

@dt6148 I agree it's more than just between the numbers. Bills also the gm, which makes each job tougher to juggle. The divide in the locker room was a thing. But then again, we also now know Tom played a part in keeping things chill. Tom put out plenty of fires for Bill. Andy's obviously the better coach of the two in this new Era of football. But in that era, it was Bill. Bills the goat unless Andy ends up with like 4 or 5 rings. Then there's no debating it anymore. Yes, mahomes is great, but Andy is the one that had him passing to wide open no names in the chip.

[@williamli6200]

@@MapleGlazedDonuts Because Brady's best skill is *passing progression,* (the skills Marino, Peyton and Rodgers were among the worst at) which doesn't produce great stats. With Brady, Pats offense would have scored a FG in later 4th quarters against Raiders and Packers, and would have won. Meaning, with Brady, we would be talking about what a genius Belidick was now.

[@paulbrandano3477]

Changing the rules about hitting a QB helped Tom a lot. I'll take Bills record without Brady any day.. Patriots won many games with No name players.. Always good O line too! One more thing, Bill never said He was the greatest, It's you. So, Who does he have to proove to you's? Bil and Tom were a perfect fit both great.

[@mustangs263]

Yes because he is not a HOF coach without Tom Brady.

[@SW-pm3ls]

Andy Reid had a handful of top 10 QB’s as a head coach. McCabb, Alex Smith, Maholmes

[@SolidMikeP]

ahah Its that time of year again!!! Was it Brady....Was it Belichick.....and GO!

[@geraldineyarborough9496]

NO! That debate is OVER!

[@youngdee6421]

P sure the debate is over. Brady was the Patriot's way

[@TheNinjakat2010]

Tom already proved it... so media is trash

[@Martin-mp5th]

The debate been over. Bill gon retire a losing coach without Brady. The new question should be how bad of a losing coach will he be before he hangs em up?

[@wblake22]

@@youngdee6421let’s not act like Brady left a good patriots team to join a bad buccaneers team. The buccaneers overall was a much better team than the patriots

[@joemagarac405]

People are harder on Belichick than on other coaches lacking their superstar player for a number of good reasons. First, for years - up until Tampa, really - everyone attributed the patriots success to their system and the system was Belichick’s. Brady was a “system quarterback” Second, Belichick himself not only believed this but promoted the idea with his treatment of Brady from around 2014 on, when Belichick used a rare (for him) second round offensive pick to acquire Garoppolo. Third, as GM as well as HC, Belichick had inordinate amount of power to shape the team, and he “left the cupboard bare” (as he put it when making excuses for himself) offensively, using 80% of his first and second round picks for defensive players. Fourth, he went on a totally out of character buying spree in free agency post-Brady, and still had a .500 team. Fifth, until someone started asking former players, the hype was that BB was the GOAT. To this day, Don Shula’s win % is better than Belichick’s and always will be at this rate. Madden and George Allen too. And none of those guys had anything like Brady.

[@duanejennings3189]

Where’s Dave??

[@diegomagellan]

Chemistry issues

[@randomupdates4013]

@@diegomagellan his banter with Shady and points were always well formed. Dave was a great offset to the divas

[@StuntmanBeatz313]

It is a TEAM accomplishment in the "Ultimate Team Sport"... this whole, which 1 person is responsible, when other ppl have to catch, defend, block, kick, manage the clock, substitute, game plan etc is really crazy to me..

[@deciuswtasby]

They have to justify their lunacy thus these kinds of topics lol. That’s really all it boils down to

[@keenannash2947]

No one is saying 1 person is 100% responsible for winning. The question is who is MORE responsible. Do you think every player, coach, and staff member should get the same % of credit when a team wins? Or do some players, coaches, or staff members get more credit than others? Obviously most people believe the latter, and the point here is Tom deserves more credit than Bill... NOT all of the credit, just mire than Bill.

[@williamli6200]

Like Patriots to a Boeing plane, Brady was the engine that determined how far, how high, how fast the plane could fly. I don't know what is in so simple that you t@rds don't understand.

[@newagain9964]

True normally the QB is 80% of a win or loss. Even on a Run and play D team. Like the 90s bucs or recent titans.

[@trusoule365]

SHADY…. Let me Remind you of the Falcons being up 28 to 3 with two minutes and eight seconds left in the third quarter. Last time I checked defense stop them from scoring. And you wondered where Bill Belichick greatness was. Might I remind you that the Los Angeles Rams only scored three points in the Super Bowl the last one the patriots played. That was the same score that Tom Brady put on the Kansas City Chiefs. With patriot players and patriot off into place but what do we know.

[@FoodImpact]

Bring back David helman!

[@reginaldweaks6913]

The Bucs were struggling until Brady had a lot of the Patriots system installed to help

[@edwingarland7173]

Yeah he used the pats system with all pro talent in all positions

[@blackanimelover18]

The Bucs were struggling because their QB threw 30 ints, all they needed was for someone to NOT do that.

[@deciuswtasby]

Bucs had a QB go 30 for 30 and they still won 7 games. That team was a good QB away from being a SB contender and they got Brady. Case closed.

[@williamakers3990]

Love y’all great analysis Greg to bill was on point

[@kylewatson4900]

Great?

[@dwightwordlaw5170]

What’s he talking about? The patriots weren’t ever a 19-0 team. They were 18-1 in 2007. They lost to the Giants in the Super Bowl. I’m shocked Joy and Slick didn’t correct Acho for saying that.

[@vinsanity982]

Why? Normal people don’t go around correcting every little misspeak or error other people make. Especially if they understand the context and the intent of what’s being said.

[@dwightwordlaw5170]

@@vinsanity982 Thats a huge error. They weren’t a 19-0 team. They didn’t have a perfect season. They almost did, but they were 18-1. I understand he was trying to make a point, but still you can’t say they were a 19-0 team when they weren’t. Only the Miami Dolphins had a perfect season. Not the Patriots.

[@terrydizzydude4087]

Okay...now ask Mike Tomlin the same thing. How many championships has Tomlin won without Ben Roethlisberger? Big Ben already had a title before Tomlin came along to ride his coattails.

[@WRNIIVIIII]

WIN WITHOUT BRADY!

[@edsadler1039]

Im a cowboys fan so this is probably the first time i agree with shady

[@JonKlinkel]

Going 61-21 the year after Duncan retired isn't the same as having a LOSING record the year after Brady leaves. Someone is obviously in love with Belichick.

[@princecheck11]

Rick made a good point by comparing bill to gregg they really are the same

[@joemagwood9130]

The Patriots was a great team that won 6 SB with a great coach and a great QB.

[@GG89262]

Belechick caused Patriots to lose a Superbowl by benching Malcom. Tom took less money and where is this talent that Bill put around Tom. Any true Wide Receiver #1 except Moss and he was at the tail of the career. Now we we see what Belechick is truly is without Tom. We saw that in Cleveland.

[@randomupdates4013]

Yeah wtf bring back Dave Helman. Show missing his football takes and humble balance. This blows

[@dacryptkeeper6836]

"Players WIN games; coaches LOSE them!" - Bill Belichick. As a so-called "Defensive Genius," HOW did the Patriots lose 3 Super Bowls? DEFENSE!!!!

[@Blackmigobubbie]

And how did the win 4 Super Bowl defense

[@matjohnson9988]

And they also won them with defense so your point is 🤷‍♂️

[@17thN.O]

Did Tom Brady win every Superbowl or game? No he did not. You win as a team and you lose as a team. Did the Buccaneers win the Superbowls when he was in Tampa Bay. Both of them together in New England went 10 years without a Superbowl win. Brady alone with that 18 and 0 team with Moss should have won that game Brady was in both games against the Giants, what happened....Brady was the quarterback of all three of those Superbowl losses. Including the 13-3 offensive masterpiece they won versus the Rams I. The last Patriots Superbowl win. Tom Brady led the Buccaneers willed the Patriots to win in the last game he played.

[@dacryptkeeper6836]

@@Blackmigobubbie Belichick is TOO conservative on offense . . . it took game winning drives, led by Brady, to win! Do you think someone like Mac Jones, or even Cam Newton in his prime, could have won those Super Bowls? NO TEAM has EVER won so many championships with the revolving door of receivers. I stand by my opinion, and quoted Belichick, himself, in my initial post!!!

[@Zdub212]

​@Da Cryptkeeper too conservative? How about going for it on 4th and 2 and let Peyton Manning win the AFCCG? Pats would have another ring if BB had been more conservative there.

[@njongomato]

I agree, Bill needs to evolve

[@Stonecoldalston]

13:46 Right blue some people might not say that Greg pop is the greatest coach of all time that’s only because the down years in the past 5-6 years go back to 2014 it was a real convo of course he still had work to do but people was putting him in the convo and he still is

[@ronwilliams5576]

I still say if he was able to keep Jimmy G he would be in a better position jmo

[@LDRTrejo]

I cannot stand this Belichick slander. Belichick Absolutely deserves the title of GOAT coach. He built the pats defense multiple times over into championship defenses, and absolutely was a humongous factor in Tom Brady becoming so driven to excellence. The reality is once tom reached a level of understanding the game so much better than others, of course he and josh would take over that offense. And when tom left, the “patriot way” that was there for so long before left with him, he was the last bastion of it. And in its wake is the modern player mentality.and the patriots simply didn’t have the guy they need for a style like that. This season will show us if Belichick can adapt, but make no mistake, that doesn’t take away the GOAT title imo.

[@davis2k1234]

I’m not sure Bellicheck is even top 5 coach of the last 25 years def not better then Andy Reid and there coming in last in the AFC east this season so gonna have to wait another season and come up with more excuses why he is below avg coach wo Brady to carry him

[@makani9004]

I think his coaching tree is a point in this favor though. He had his eye on every part of the team, and it shored up the weaknesses of those guys. The second they didn't have Bill running beside them holding the bike they drove straight into a dumpster.

[@FrizzKid05]

I don't think his coaching tree is a great point for him. McDaniels and Brady were the reason the offense worked. Now, when he doesn't have either of their minds, they're mediocre, at best.

[@patrickreidy7420]

My man slick got ‘‘em at the end..Phil Jackson didn’t win with knicks but that’s a convo for another day lmao

[@minzyailee3023]

But he wasn't a coach with the Knicks.

[@steve.santiago]

When Joy said “I don’t want to be unsexy here” who else thought she couldn’t be unsexy if she tried?

[@Patsman2993]

Andy Reid has won two superbowls, has historically terrible defenses, and is basically being carried by Mahomes right now the way you can say Brady did with Bill. Belichick has been a GM, has almost always had a top 10 defense, drafted multiple HOF players, still has a lot left in the tank. Rest of the division and conference has been able to build up with talent while the Patriots focused on championships. They’re still rebuilding and not too far off from being competitive with the top dogs after 4 years from Brady leaving.

[@abrahamsannoh]

25. I need to do his homework on the claims he be making, yall!! It's so disrespectful to hear the claims he's making. Anyway, thanks for the motivation!! 🙌🏾💪🏾💪🏾🙌🏾💯

[@REE_III]

Acho bad analogy. Stocks have "risks"...being a fan does "not."

[@sxdggy3]

LeSean stop talking, Bill is great! Top 3 coach!

[@all-topics]

he only waiting until he passes don shula as head coach with the most wins

[@eddurriii8214]

I just want one day for this crew to actually tell the truth…especially Joy n Shady

[@randomupdates4013]

Dave tells truths and is missing

[@Righteous628]

Shady is 1,000% correct

[@randywatson2103]

The worst thing that could of happened to Bill's legacy did happen...Brady doing what he did with Tampa Bay.

[@mattbedrosian5298]

Not just Brady winning a super bowl year 1 in Tampa. But Bill hasn't sniffed a playoff win in 3 years since 12's been gone.

[@jeffm7145]

Now Bill needs to win one

[@DA-MAGIC]

with Mac at quarterback 😆😆

[@originata3748]

Hard to argue against Shady's argument, 55-59. Thats 7 seasons worth of games.

[@Stonecoldalston]

He have to win a ring without Brady if Brady didn’t win in Tampa it would be different but he’s in the Kobe situation when him and a shaq spilt Shaq won right away with his new team & kobe legacy was being torn down until he won Bill have to go Win

[@brettperry218]

As a pats fan I couldn't care less about BB's legacy. I care about winning championships. Craft and Belichick have shown over the last few years that championships aren't their priority anymore.

[@spliffgod5941]

Joy your are never unsexy 😊

[@sham55]

Don’t forget Bill did alright - was winning with Bledsoe before he got injured. I appreciated Rick’s comparison to Pop and his take what Belichick has left to prove. Acho and Shady are very quick to criticize.

[@TakeNotesKid]

He was WHAT? 5-11 in 2000. 0-2 in 2001. That’s winning with Bledsoe?

[@mikehatten5738]

@@TakeNotesKid hahahaha some people just start typing without booting up the brain first 😂

[@blackeducationalnetwork9019]

Nobody mentioned Chuck Noll who built the greatest team of all time

[@JonKlinkel]

Everything Joy said points ENTIRELY to Brady being the sole reason for their success. HE raises players up....HE does this, that and everything else. NOT Belichick. Belichick is an AVERAGE coach, AT BEST.

[@apope06]

The B defense was a huge part of those super bowl wins. Not just Brady.

[@Matt-cr4vv]

I wish people would acknowledge that as impressive as the TB chip was Tom stepped into a much better situation than Bill has had I’m trying to replace such a vital position. I think it would be more damning on Bill if he was having these results with either a pro bowl level QB or had drafted a genuinely franchise caliber QB. But the reality is he hasn’t had that. And the best option to replace Tom was a rookie with a very low ceiling that everybody acknowledges doesn’t have the talent to carry the team. So you’re comparing Tom stepping onto a roster full of all pros that lost a ton of very close games the year before (six were by a score or less) with a turnover machine QB versus having to replace the most vital role a team has. Bill has been miles from perfect but we also need to stop pretending like the task at hand was equal for both. Bill deserves a ton of criticism for how he’s handled Mac but the task was immensely higher for him. Now I’d be on board more if let’s say he got a Lawrence who had the ceiling to actually lead the franchise and was falling short. But I’m not willing to brush away all of Bills success because he hasn’t had title contending teams with a past his prime Cam or low ceiling Mac. I get why it seems that way but I just can’t do it and think the unfair argument gets made largely because for so long he got to benefit from everybody refusing to credit Tom.

[@captainchaosxx3866]

Now I cringe every time because Mccoy can't pronounce "success' 😖 maybe that's me be a hater.

[@HemiLeo392]

Yep as a pats fan absolutely right it was Brady more n now give Mac Jones a real OC

[@joofmagoof2841]

it was tom and belichick. Stafford with the Rams is pretty close to Tom with the Bucs. The main difference being their previous teams.

[@toastylyfe]

11:37 I disagree with the concept of "what we know" because "what we know" = accomplishments. The what if game shouldn't be played because it's not real, but individual stats can point to opportunities that we just didn't get to see. In the same way that we didn't get to see Westbrook, Harden, and Durant (on OKC). The argument is still valid, just not as measurable since it's conceptual.

[@ddm62571]

Nobody looked at Belichick as not even the greatest but even a good coach until Tom Brady came in his life and changed everything for him and that's a fact!

[@shakorieaster7489]

Why do people forget Adam Vinatieri won a lot of those games Tom and Bill get credit for. Not to mention that defense........... or the fact they cheated ALOT!

[@jrad410]

How did Vinatieri get into range to make those FGs? Also you make it sound like it always came down to a kicker lol

[@shakorieaster7489]

@jrad410 out of what I said, your concerns were the kicker an not the cheating? Lol ok.

[@jessierolan]

Joy needs to be the host, she's by far the most knowledgeable on any lineup, she's also the most calm and convincing while being nuanced and looking at both sides. Acho is a good color guy, but he's acting too much on this show to be the host imo.

[@rizz5074]

Shady doesn’t seem like he does research. He talks from emotion and how he feels about someone or a situation. I like Rick. He seems more like an analyst.

[@davis2k1234]

He researched his losing record when Brady isn’t his QB 🤷‍♂️ Shady knows what’s up

[@Atlas365247]

Rick is an analyst. Shady is a former player, huge ego not deep

[@kaelinjefferies9267]

Rick didn’t say anything

[@davis2k1234]

Rick is a NBA analyst not NFL

[@maverick33guy95]

The disrespect is ridiculous.. for the most part in sports.. there is no hof player.. coach.. without both

[@QuesTV92]

They needed each other. That defense bailed tom out just as much if not more than tom carried that team. They loss twice to the giants in the superbowl look at the scores

[@aholmes74ah]

Tom won without Bill

[@QuesTV92]

@@aholmes74ah tom went to a stacked team. He still almost lost to the packers and the defense bailed him out

[@davis2k1234]

@@QuesTV92 he only scored 31 Pts and 3TDs vs packers he was so lucky for his defense bail him out 🤡

[@QuesTV92]

@@davis2k1234 he threw 3 pics

[@davis2k1234]

@@QuesTV92 After building a 28-10 lead and 2 of those INts were basically punts on Hail Mary 3rd and longs and one was a drop by Evans hit him in the hands he played amazing that game and the whole 2020 run

[@tswaggcodes5]

Looks like “25” hairline is running away as well!😂😂😂😂😊

[@neilouellette3004]

Belichicks Career Head Coaching Record w/out a Tom Brady, again CAREER Head Coaching record 79-87. Not even a .500 average Head Coach w/out Tom Brady. So overrated.

[@Atlas365247]

Thank you Rick for analogy.

[@queensborofinest8858]

The point that haven't been said is Bill Belichick the GM has been sabotaging Bill Belichick the coach

[@tod3msn]

At this point, Coach Belichick has little to prove other than to himself. He loves coaching. Keep coaching.

[@williamli6200]

He is on the way to prove that he is a product of Tom Brady. The team built by Belichick wouldn't have won a single SB with any other QB, because the talents he put around Brady wouldn't be enough for other QB to do what Brady did.

[@gerardbonner6464]

​@@williamli6200 hmm. What about that SB where they held at the time, the greatest offense ever, to 17 points? What about that Rams team from 2018, his defense held them to 3 points. Brady didn't light anything up with no TD's and an interception. Cut it out

[@10eightyprince]

I love when Joy gives the best take. Just to prove that her looks are a bonus to her logical mind 👌🏾 That chick is bad fr

[@crashHypnotize]

Bill is just like Popovic with the Spurs right now. Both are over the hill right now.

[@caydenantrim2156]

You can’t say Bill is nothing without Brady because Bill and his defense has been the reason they have won some super bowls sometimes

[@davis2k1234]

Brady hater myth Brady was carrying bad offenses and was already arguably the best QB in the league in 2002

[@BigDilf3]

@@davis2k1234 he’s not hating though

[@davis2k1234]

@@BigDilf3 Not hating he’s just talking non sense that’s been repeated so much people believe it was always all Brady since his 1st snap

[@BigDilf3]

@@davis2k1234 Tom doesn’t play defense

[@williamli6200]

Dumbfook, don't claim defense won the first 3 SB when Pats needed offense to get first round bye, to deliver winning drive in SB twice and to score 24 or more in back to back playoff games, especially with the cheap squad given by BeliCHEAP.

[@fishykinggoat88]

So Dave is gone for good?

[@kevindavis4351]

Brian Daboll and Brian Flores were the only coaches that were from the Belichick tree that had success. Bill O'Brian was borderline ok but he alienated himself from his own team before getting fired.

[@KennethBryant86]

Gotta stop it bill defense won 4 of those championships tom won 2 these guys jus love to hate bill you can love Tom and not hate bill

[@DarrelWashingtonJr9002]

Bro it's crazy how I used to watch this show like crazy when it was just Marcellus and ocho ...now I just watch clips or shorts of this show...

[@Atlas365247]

They no longer have full shows on the channel. Nd its not as good

[@markainsley231]

The only person worth watching on this show is Joy. Otherwise it’s a poor show

[@DarrelWashingtonJr9002]

@@markainsley231 facts

[@marlonburnett3783]

He’s coaching!🤦🏾‍♂️. Need to get out the way.

[@reginaldweaks6913]

Shady McCoy jumped on the bandwagon for his 2 superbowls and wanna hate on Bill

[@Agent77X]

You only as good as the latest season or two! Have to continue proving yourself!😮

[@notme-vg5bd]

Bill without Tom is... average. Literally average. Still waiting on all those SuperbowlS (yes plural) that he thought he could win with "any top 15 QB in the league". LOL HE IS LITERALLY WHAT HE THOUGHT TOM WOULD BE WITHOUT HIM - AVERAGE!

[@originata3748]

Belichick has been Jeff Fisher without Brady. He probably would've finished his career as a D coordinator had Brady not come along.

[@Karnakthemagnificent]

Joys' point about the players that Belichick put around Brady is well taken, but Belichick also notoriously squandered high draft choices on picks like Harry, Easley, Dowling, Jackson, & Richards, and in more years than not, Brady made that O-Line look better than it was because he got rid of the ball so fast even having to throw to targets like Caldwell and Thompkins - not exactly household names. Yet even in those lean years where the Boston sports media were appalled at the lack of offensive talent, they got to the playoffs. Right now, Mac Jones is surrounded by as much offensive talent as Belichick can muster and they are 1-2. Only winning against the Jets whose QB was unwilling to compete and may have just played himself out of the NFL.

[@TB12710]

Dear Joy Taylor: you said the NFL owners don’t like where they’re at with Lamar Jackson. YES THEY DO: 👉 $32.4M 👈 So far it looks to be a take it or leave it deal, and btw it’s YOU and LJ8 who don’t like it! Not anybody else! 😊

[@tfirejubrajubrah]

I hate the argument of "He had the same coach for a long time". Players get coaches fired all the time right? Well if they can get a coach fired, can't they keep one employed if they keep winning for them?

[@DaNumba1Rapper]

I'm just saying - for an "incredible defensive mind", all 3 of those SB losses were all because of the defense from said "incredible mind" 👀

[@dominiquerobinson8888]

The 2 first losses were on the offense.

[@travisblair3189]

@@dominiquerobinson8888 Exactly ‼️

[@deciuswtasby]

@@dominiquerobinson8888 facts. The goat had his defense hold another team under 20 points and he can’t get it done? It’s always been on the offense but they blame the defense 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@Branderbie]

If you had a car that won every race for 10 years, then you took out the engine and put it in a new car and that new car won every race and the old one lost, you wouldn't wonder what was actually responsible for the wins. People only have trouble with this because they talked about how great BB was for years and years and don't want to look like they were wrong now. BB has coached 10 years where TB wasn't the QB and won 1 playoff game in those 10 years.

[@soda8736]

Ok so now they want to go back the last 3 years for Belechic , but with Lamar they act like he last played in 2019? Pick and choosing. Hypocrites

[@josephsmithmeyer1195]

As a fins fan who hates the pats the fans should not worry they mad the playoffs with Mac and last year had no offensive coach I think they'll be fine and they deserve to loose the division a few years

[@Righteous628]

Sorry Joy.